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1:10

Hello and Happy Tuesday!

1:13

Well. I didn't expect to

1:15

start this week out with a

1:17

fresh reminder of how angry I

1:19

am at Becky Hill. But here

1:21

we are. On Sunday call King

1:23

County Clerk of Courts Peggy Hill

1:25

announced that she would hold a

1:28

press conference on Monday. And. Boy

1:30

Murdoch twitter lit up with questions

1:32

wondering what it could be about.

1:34

On Monday she announced her resignation

1:37

in front of a pack of

1:39

reporters. It was a

1:41

press conference that should have been

1:43

a press release. In that with

1:45

it. Hill. Did not

1:47

apologize for the chaos she has

1:50

caused. She did not apologize to

1:52

those who stood up for her

1:54

when Dick Engine flung their jury

1:57

tampering accusations she didn't even nearly

1:59

recognize. Hurry along with the

2:01

mistakes in the past year

2:03

or say anything about how her

2:06

careless actions made our state

2:08

look bad. Know see the said

2:10

that she was resigning because

2:12

of her quote Unquote Grandchildren. And

2:15

nothing to do with the

2:17

ongoing criminal investigation hanging over

2:19

her head. Also. Interesting Betty

2:21

of coauthor Neil Gordon said on

2:24

the Surviving The Survivor Podcast this

2:26

weekend, but he was questioned by

2:28

sled about Hill in the book

2:30

that they wrote together on Friday.

2:33

But. According to Betty and her attorney

2:35

Just and Bamberg, none of that

2:37

has to do with her resignation

2:40

any who. The press conference was

2:42

a disappointing because I was reminded

2:44

of how little shame some people

2:46

have when they mess up. Becky.

2:49

Seemed proud to be quitting on

2:51

Monday morning and her snug shameless

2:53

demeanor just made me angry at

2:55

her all over again. And speaking

2:57

of shame and this episode we

3:00

talk about what we learned from

3:02

the Kate Middleton issue and yes

3:04

I feel awful and to those

3:06

who reached out saying that they

3:08

were disappointed in last week's conversation

3:10

i hear view and we are

3:13

going to address that had a

3:15

on. Plus. We talked about

3:17

another favorite topic of mine. Lately the

3:19

idea. That a recent study showed

3:21

thirty to fifty percent of people have

3:23

an internal dialogue in their brains. I

3:26

was really shocked to learn this, because

3:28

honestly, I thought that everyone had

3:30

the same types of voices in their

3:33

heads that I do that many just

3:35

don't Even though that statistic shocked

3:37

me at first, the more I think

3:39

about it anymore, you think about the

3:42

past three years, it actually makes

3:44

a lot of sense. And the idea

3:46

of Alec Murdoch or Betty Hill having

3:48

an internal monologue is. Hilarious.

3:51

Premium. members will get to hear

3:54

our full discussions on those topics

3:56

including a second conversation that we

3:58

had about how Eric's internal

4:00

monologue was still talking to

4:02

him about what we had

4:04

just learned about internal monologues.

4:07

Also, on today's show, we talked about

4:09

the judge's denial barring Bland Richter from

4:12

getting a share of Alec Murdoch's assets

4:14

and what that means for his clients.

4:17

We talked about the victim's rally that

4:19

Eric and I attended in Columbia last

4:21

Thursday in the powerful speech by Carl

4:23

Small's Sr. Plus, we

4:25

talk about the sticky situation with

4:27

Russell Labbeats' appeal. Let's

4:31

get into it. What's

4:39

up, kids? How are you? Cups

4:41

up. Cups up. Doing good.

4:43

Good. Good. You

4:46

surviving the Kate Middleton backlash? I guess I'm getting it.

4:48

I haven't really been reading about it.

4:50

I talked to Mandy about it when I saw

4:52

her Thursday at the victim's rally. I

4:55

guess I'm more pro, Kate, so I think

4:57

probably Mandy's getting a little bit more backlash

4:59

because she was a little critical of the

5:02

institution, but I'm sure both of us are

5:04

getting it. But we certainly, I mean, Mandy

5:06

was 100% right. In

5:09

all candor, she said that she thought that there

5:11

was going to be a serious illness wrong

5:13

with Kate, so she called it 100%. Yeah,

5:16

I mean, kind of. I

5:19

will be the first human I said

5:21

this, that I do feel

5:23

bad and I was wrong to an

5:25

extent, and my Catholic

5:27

guilt is, and I'll

5:30

talk about this in a minute, the voices in

5:32

my head are like, Mandy, you should have done

5:34

better and blah, blah, blah. It's,

5:36

I mean, I've been getting constant

5:39

messages all week, people

5:41

saying I'm disappointed at you, Mandy,

5:43

people saying I've been following you

5:45

for years and I

5:48

believed in you before this and now I no

5:50

longer believe in you. And those are, I know

5:52

they're, they're just, it's just hard things

5:54

to hear about yourself. And

5:57

I Just want to say a couple of things. I think

5:59

we're. This situation as Via

6:01

Fran. This is

6:03

kind of the first time that I've

6:05

had a. Real opinion on

6:07

something that I haven't been completely

6:09

involved. then. Lay. With

6:12

a murder case I can talk about I

6:14

had I can have opinions on and I'm

6:16

completely comfortable with it because they know it

6:19

from the bottom my heart. Stephen Smith. Big.

6:21

Said drop by the Kate Middleton

6:23

situation like I don't have sources.

6:25

Any I do I have. We

6:27

got a lot of fans in

6:29

England and hey, if anybody has

6:31

insider knowledge I would love to

6:33

hear it. Not the wall of

6:35

like all principle that I did

6:37

with a murder case in this

6:39

scenario. but I don't have insider

6:41

sources. In the didn't

6:44

the castles and if you

6:46

the palaces. And. I.

6:49

I think that because of that

6:51

age, it's hard for me to

6:53

be an opinion off of things.

6:56

So I think they're I was

6:58

very very critical of other people

7:00

coming. Into the murder case is. Treating

7:03

it like everything else and just.

7:05

Being. Like from my experience while the lox

7:07

I would sit there and say. This.

7:09

Makes me so mad because in the

7:11

trenches at low country it is way

7:13

different here. But. All of

7:15

that said, I am. You know

7:18

it's been aware learning experience and

7:20

we still don't actually know the

7:22

bottom of the truth. And I

7:24

think that that's where I was

7:26

too, We don't stress to people.

7:29

I. Hope that we will get to the

7:31

bottom. Well, are we entitled to the

7:33

truth Limp Let me ask you this. I

7:35

am an opinion on that. I think she

7:38

can. Have a plan for. A

7:40

real good platform about cancer and not

7:42

to fear in in. She. Could

7:45

do a lot of educating with. He

7:47

know the particular type of cancer

7:49

she has. Similar: when people have

7:51

breast cancer, god forbid colon cancer.

7:54

But. Are we really entitled to

7:56

that? True Scores in her? Truth?

7:58

It's It's really hard. and this

8:00

is something else I've thought about in the last couple

8:02

of weeks, especially in the last

8:04

few days because people have said like, Mandy

8:07

said so many things about how

8:09

women get just the

8:11

crap beat out of them on social

8:14

media and they have no privacy and

8:16

here you were

8:18

demanding that this woman like

8:21

reveal her health issues

8:23

and that's not the problem

8:25

is that her position is a

8:28

public official where she engages with

8:30

the public and that's where she

8:32

gets money from and so

8:35

I think

8:37

it's an outdated position is what I'm trying

8:40

to say and that we're all in this

8:42

weird position because we feel like she

8:45

does owe the public something to some extent

8:47

because that's her job and that's what she's

8:49

supposed to be doing and there

8:52

isn't also like a

8:54

lot of people to compare this to like

8:56

for instance, the President of the United

8:58

States had cancer, the public would have the

9:00

right to know that. Look, look

9:02

what happened a couple of weeks ago with

9:05

the Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin. Exactly. He

9:07

didn't report to the President that

9:09

he was going into the hospital

9:11

for prostate surgery, he had cancer

9:14

and so we went without an

9:16

acting Secretary of Defense for three

9:18

days. So if it's a

9:20

public position, I agree that you should

9:22

say that you are sick. So

9:25

her saying that she had surgery at

9:27

the end of January and that she

9:29

was going to be out till Easter,

9:31

was that enough or is

9:33

the public Liz entitled

9:35

to know that in

9:37

addition to surgery, she is also

9:40

battling cancer. That's really, did she

9:42

disclose enough or does she have to

9:44

disclose more? So first of all,

9:46

I just want to say that I feel no guilt about my

9:48

opinion. My inside voices are telling

9:51

me that I'm on the right side of history

9:53

here because I look like

9:56

it is and I love our

9:58

English listeners like this. made scones today in

10:01

honor of you guys. But

10:03

I have to say this, don't

10:05

come at me when your country is

10:08

flooded with these very aggressive

10:11

and salacious tabloids. The

10:13

tabloid culture there is

10:16

really over the top. I

10:19

actually enjoy Daily Mail, I do, just

10:21

because it's so over the top. But

10:24

it all has a point of view, right? You

10:27

can see when you compare the Megan stories

10:29

versus the Kate stories, you can see the

10:32

difference in how those two women are treated. You

10:34

can see how women are pitted against each other, how

10:36

a woman in a

10:39

bikini is considered a headline, how

10:41

the liberal point of view is mocked and

10:43

blown out of proportion. So that

10:46

is the culture there. So

10:48

why this one person is untouchable, especially

10:51

when this one person, like you guys

10:53

said, is on the public dole? Her

10:56

kids are going to get to go to the finest schools, her

10:58

kids are going to have the finest life. That's

11:00

not because of the tax money. That's

11:03

the job, that's what it is, that's what you get

11:05

in exchange. I think at some

11:07

point when the public starts to say, we want

11:10

more from you, we want to hear

11:12

more information about this. Their

11:15

response to that is to give

11:17

a photo that was completely doctored

11:20

and made up. We

11:22

saw what you look like in the video, right? It

11:24

looks fine. Are we entitled to

11:26

it? No, but they're the ones who put the photo

11:28

out in the first place. So they wanted to project

11:30

a certain sort of image. Yeah,

11:33

they wanted her to look a certain way, they

11:35

wanted this to look a certain way. So you

11:38

fed us a lie and now you're mad at

11:40

us for demanding the truth. You

11:42

don't get my guilt on that. You do not get

11:44

it. You do not get for one second, am I

11:46

going to feel any sort of way other than standing

11:49

in my ground on that one? I

11:53

love these, I was just going through them before

11:55

I got on this, looking at some of the

11:57

comments that were sent to me. so

12:00

disappointed in you and it's like I'm of

12:04

myself. I want to read to

12:06

you guys the quote that Secretary Lloyd Austin

12:08

said after it came out that

12:10

he had cancer and he had not disclosed it

12:12

to the president. He said, I want

12:15

to be crystal clear we did not handle

12:17

this right and I did not handle this

12:19

right. I should have told the president about

12:21

my cancer diagnosis. I should have

12:23

also told my team and the American public

12:25

and I take full responsibility. I

12:27

apologize to my teammates and to the

12:30

American people. That's pretty simple. I

12:32

mean and that's right there.

12:34

That's so much better. You can't

12:36

fight that. That's a 30,000 pound statement

12:39

right there. Right. I would pay

12:41

somebody that gets you out of the hole.

12:44

He went in the hospital the following week and he

12:46

immediately said I'm going back to the hospital I'm having

12:48

a little bit of a difficulty and everybody

12:50

said fine. Right. Yeah that's right.

12:53

So that's what sunlight does. Right

12:55

and I wish that William would

12:57

have been by her side or

12:59

said something and I just wish

13:01

that there would have been a

13:03

little bit of them admitting not

13:06

Kate. I don't think Kate did anything wrong.

13:09

I do not believe she had anything to

13:11

do with that Photoshop thing. I think that

13:13

I think that she's eight steps removed from

13:15

her own social media. I think she's eight

13:17

steps removed from all of this and

13:20

I just don't think that

13:22

she had anything to do with that but

13:24

I would like to see her husband saying

13:26

we messed this up. This

13:28

was supposed to... Maybe it would be by

13:30

your side. Right. Renee would be by my

13:32

side and Liz you know your significant other

13:35

would be by your side. Newberry the dog.

13:37

My ex-husband. He'd be there for

13:39

me. Actually he would but Newberry

13:41

would be there. No but our

13:43

spouses would be by our side. I think it

13:46

was you know putting her alone

13:48

on a park bench was really... Classless.

13:51

Was hard. Hard to watch. It was

13:53

hard to watch. It was. It was

13:55

very weird and again and

13:57

cold and again it's like they

13:59

wanted... the public to feel like

14:01

we've all put this woman by

14:04

herself through so much shame and it's

14:06

like, no, we are yelling at the

14:08

palace, we are yelling at the institution.

14:11

It is not her fault that

14:13

she has to sit on this bench and it has all

14:15

come to this and it is

14:17

also not the people's fault for demanding

14:19

some answers here. They bungled

14:21

this entire thing from day one and

14:24

again, instead of the

14:27

I keep going back to if they wouldn't

14:29

have put out that weird photo, I wouldn't

14:31

even, my little curious ears wouldn't have even

14:33

been anywhere near this because I

14:36

wouldn't have cared but I popped in because

14:38

I was like, AP in a kill

14:40

order, that's really weird and what else

14:42

is going on there? Hmm-hmm-hmm. If

14:44

they would have just said on Mother's Day,

14:46

hey, she needs more time, her health condition

14:48

is a lot more serious than we thought

14:50

that it was, I think the world would

14:52

have just backed off and said, okay, more

14:55

time, that's fine but instead, they

14:58

just got weirder and again, we

15:01

don't know. I still don't

15:03

believe that that was her in the market

15:05

video from last week,

15:07

booping around, getting her

15:10

breads in her nuts, like no,

15:12

she wasn't doing that and that

15:14

wasn't, that also, whatever.

15:17

I think bottom line

15:19

is that all of this, hopefully we

15:21

learn a lesson about it is

15:24

still a good thing

15:26

to have a healthy amount of skepticism

15:28

toward powerful institutions

15:31

and that is never something

15:34

that anybody should shame anybody else

15:36

for. We should still ask questions

15:38

when they put out a story

15:40

that just doesn't make sense and does not add

15:42

up and even when cancer is on the table,

15:45

we should still be able to

15:47

have a healthy amount of criticism

15:49

and skepticism when it comes

15:51

to the things that they're saying and if

15:53

they're telling us the truth or not. But

15:55

yeah, all of that said, I think they

15:57

just live a different life than I am.

16:01

and it's a whole different scenario and that's

16:03

why we had 1776 and I'm very happy

16:06

that we did. Yeah that said

16:08

I'm sorry I would made anybody mad

16:10

but let's move on. Tell me

16:13

what you thought of the victims rally

16:15

on Thursday. I thought it was spectacular.

16:17

I really enjoyed hearing the

16:19

small speak. I thought

16:21

Sarah Ford did a great job. I

16:24

thought it was well put on. What were your thoughts

16:26

about it Mandy? It was really great. I

16:28

could not believe what an amazing

16:31

speaker Carl Small senior

16:33

was. I mean that guy

16:35

could run for office and I would vote

16:38

for him any day. He was

16:40

like yes I haven't

16:42

been that moved by somebody's speech in

16:44

a long time. He just

16:47

had a phenomenal way of words.

16:49

The things that he said and he was

16:52

calling out everything as it was. I

16:54

liked that he said how offended he

16:56

has been and a lot

16:58

of victims are seeing things

17:01

written about them that like they are

17:03

they're becoming political props

17:05

for different things and he

17:07

said like you try putting

17:10

your kid in the casket and

17:12

see how you feel. Yeah and

17:15

hearing a song, hear a song 20

17:17

years later that still reminds you of your son and

17:19

you have to pull over on the side of the

17:21

road and cry and he said

17:24

that we're all part of a family that

17:26

nobody wants to be a member of. I

17:28

thought that was so powerful and

17:30

he talked about how hurt he was

17:32

that what Chief Justice Beatty

17:35

may have said in oral

17:37

arguments he even gave the reference and was like

17:39

the 30 minute mark where he

17:41

said that Chief Justice Beatty said you know

17:43

that they were not entitled to notice and

17:46

he said how you know how dare somebody

17:48

tell me I'm not entitled to notice when

17:51

my son's killer is going to be released

17:53

from prison earlier than the sentence of the

17:56

state said he would be. He

17:58

was a very powerful And that's

18:00

the kind of politician I think we need.

18:03

And I hope the people in the Statehouse heard it.

18:05

And what I really learned was

18:07

the funding that's trying to be

18:09

cut for victims advocates, hearing

18:12

Attorney General Wilson speak was

18:14

surprising. And I

18:16

think he said that he would meet with

18:18

Sandy Smith, if I'm not mistaken. And we

18:20

are going to hold his feet to the

18:23

fire to meet with Sandy Smith and you,

18:25

Mandy, and you, Liz, to talk about what's

18:27

going on. Because obviously, I had my connection

18:30

with Chief Keel, but if we could get that

18:32

connection with Alan Wilson, maybe we

18:34

will see some progress being made. Yeah,

18:36

it was very encouraged by the people

18:39

in his office who were there. I

18:41

met two of them, and Sandy met

18:43

them. Sandy briefly

18:45

met with Alan Wilson, but it was

18:47

like he was literally about to

18:50

go up on stage. So he just kind

18:52

of hugged her, took a picture, and there

18:54

was really no time for them to talk.

18:57

But the people in his office were like, he

18:59

is very victim-centered. He would

19:02

love to meet with you. Like, let's figure that out.

19:04

Let's get this on the calendar. Let's do this. And

19:07

I was extremely encouraged by that. And

19:10

I, again, just want to

19:12

see it. Oh, yeah. Yeah, the

19:14

entire thing, it was

19:16

another just – it's

19:18

really sad to get to know these people

19:20

and their stories. And there's

19:23

a lot of heaviness at those events,

19:25

because like just pretty much everyone you

19:28

meet has something huge that they're carrying

19:30

with them, and like something just

19:33

horrible that happened to them, and that's the reason

19:35

why they're there. But at the

19:38

same time, it's just beautiful to see them all come

19:40

together and realize a common cause. And

19:43

we're getting further with getting

19:45

the JMSC and moving

19:48

along with judicial

19:50

reform. And I think

19:53

that as we were standing there, I was like,

19:55

yeah, we're actually – we're making progress here. This

19:57

isn't the same thing every year. and

20:00

we're just yelling about it. There's actually

20:02

things being done inside the State House

20:04

and they are hearing us in there.

20:07

So that's encouragement to keep going. And I

20:09

also really loved one thing that I want to

20:11

say. I loved,

20:13

loved, loved that Carl

20:15

Smalls just called out

20:17

names and he said,

20:19

the unlawful firm of

20:21

Gibson, Rutherford and Manning. Yeah,

20:23

he put them together. It

20:26

was powerful, you know, to see Judge

20:29

Manning. Meaning he made

20:31

a law firm of Byron Gibson,

20:33

the solicitor and the judge. It

20:35

was extremely powerful. One

20:38

thing that disturbed me when Carl Smalls was

20:40

talking was how he talked about, like you

20:42

were saying that people, the accusation was that

20:44

his family was being used like as political

20:46

props. And he called it the get over

20:49

it crowd. People who were telling his family

20:51

to like move on because, you know, Gerard

20:53

Price got his time, he served his time,

20:55

blah, blah, blah. And what made

20:58

me think about that, I started

21:00

to wonder, did you

21:02

guys get the feeling, was there sort

21:05

of a backlash from the Todd

21:07

Rutherford crowd, the Byron Gibson crowd,

21:09

the Casey Manning crowd to

21:11

counter what the Smalls were saying publicly?

21:14

Because who is saying these things to

21:16

that family? Is it just social media

21:19

comments that they happen to see? Or

21:22

is there actually like seeds put into

21:24

the community of, oh, don't listen

21:26

to him. He's just, you know, just being used right

21:28

now and they just need to get over it and

21:30

what have you. Because I think it's

21:32

such a setback and I think it kind

21:35

of speaks to what greed does

21:37

to people because there is

21:39

no other reason to have done what they did, what

21:42

Casey Manning, Todd Rutherford and Byron

21:44

Gibson did. Then for whether it's

21:46

financial or power gain. So

21:49

it was their personal greed that got us

21:51

to this position. And I

21:53

just, I don't know how we counter that. How

21:55

do we counter somebody's because that's what

21:58

I think we're sitting on with the legislature. I

22:00

hope that we are making progress, but

22:02

I can't look past the

22:04

personal grade that I think is still

22:06

holding us back in Columbia. So

22:09

that's just what I wanted to say. I

22:11

didn't like the move on crowd. I do

22:13

not like it when people turn on victims.

22:15

And I specifically don't like it when state

22:18

legislators and judges and solicitors create

22:20

some sort of a culture of

22:23

backlash against victims. It

22:25

doesn't serve them. It definitely doesn't serve the

22:27

community. How did you look? Now,

22:30

and also David Pasco said, if

22:32

you think that your ride price was an

22:34

anomaly, you're wrong. It

22:37

happens so frequently, you would be

22:39

shocked. And that stuck with

22:41

me. I want to know how frequently

22:43

does it happen and who did it

22:45

happen for? We

22:47

only heard about your ride price. Did

22:50

this thing happen once a week, once a month? Do

22:52

these secret deals just happen

22:54

all the time? Yeah. And

22:56

what is the point of the whole process then?

22:59

If all you have to do later down the

23:01

road is get together some cash, however you want

23:03

to deliver in a suitcase, in a bag, in

23:05

a check form, whatever, you just get

23:07

together that money and then you're done. You

23:10

can buy your way out of the system. It's

23:12

disgusting. With a lawyer, I'm not saying that

23:14

don't say, I don't think Judge Manning was bought with

23:16

cash. I don't think we're saying that.

23:18

I'm saying a lawyer may be bought with it. I

23:21

wasn't saying that. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. But

23:23

I mean, what would Manning, if

23:26

he didn't get anything out of that, whether it's personal

23:28

favor or not, I mean, that was a dumb deal

23:30

then on his part. That was stupid. It

23:32

killed his legacy. Killed his

23:34

legacy. Right. Because why

23:37

sacrifice your reputation? Let's

23:40

talk about that in a minute and we'll be right

23:42

back. I'm

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24:57

as I was watching Fargo season five

25:00

yesterday, I just finished with season four.

25:02

Awesome, isn't it? It's so good. Isn't it?

25:04

Yeah. And Eric, there was a line

25:06

in there that I shared with Mandy from season four

25:08

when it was all about the mafia and I think

25:11

it was Kansas City actually, Mandy. Kansas City, right?

25:13

Yeah. And the sort of Italian son, the Jason Schwarzman

25:18

character says, America loves a good crime

25:22

story because America itself is a crime story.

25:24

And I just like that's been sitting

25:26

with me since I heard

25:29

that. There's all so many good lines. It's a really

25:31

well-written show. But as I was watching the show,

25:33

Mandy sends me a link to a story that

25:36

blew my mind. And it

25:38

was that apparently only

25:41

30 to 50 percent of the population has

25:43

what's called an internal voice. And I'm going

25:46

to give you an

25:48

example of what an internal voice is. As I mentioned

25:50

before, I was making scones today. And at

25:54

one point I noticed a hair in part of

25:56

the batter. So I pull

25:58

out the batter. Now, mind you, I'm like having

26:00

this sort of like you know conversation

26:02

in my head, that hair turns into

26:04

you know disgusting, I'm disgusted by it right?

26:07

So I'm like oh then it becomes a

26:09

conversation like you're disgusting, you should have your

26:11

hair up. What are you

26:13

doing? If you get married and your

26:15

husband looks at your, eats your food and he

26:17

has to pull hair out of his mouth, what

26:20

happens? Do you have to wear a hair net

26:22

then after that? And if you wore the hair

26:24

net, would he then think that you gave in

26:26

to his power? Like how do you casually deal

26:28

with the hair situation like if you got yelled

26:30

at? Oh Jesus did you unravel this?

26:32

That's what happens on every minute of every

26:35

day Eric in my head. That's where

26:37

it goes. Yeah I have that

26:39

too. Eric do you have an do you

26:41

have an inner monologue? I do I do

26:43

it's my father and it's you know it's a

26:46

conscience for me but yeah it's guilt it's Jewish

26:48

guilt for me but yes yes

26:50

I do. I spin out

26:52

of control like you just did Liz. Oh

26:54

yeah yeah. I was I was telling

26:56

David like I have a whole city

26:58

council going on up in my head

27:01

before I make decisions and they are

27:03

arguing and they are and it becomes

27:05

really hard to speak sometimes because there

27:07

are so many different voices coming

27:10

at me and so many

27:12

different opinions of like you're being really

27:14

great. No this is awful. Yeah shame

27:17

shame feel the guilt don't

27:20

feel the guilt. This is depression

27:22

is this not depression? It's wild

27:24

and then so

27:29

this came out the other night we

27:31

were at dinner with our good friends

27:33

the Bannons and Meredith

27:35

was the woman there there

27:37

two lawyers and the Meredith

27:39

was saying that she she's

27:41

got the inner monologue and

27:43

Jim was like I

27:46

don't have what are you talking about?

27:49

He's like so he's like my inner

27:51

monologue would be like boopity-oop getting some

27:53

tacos. So

27:56

jealous of that. I know and I was

27:58

like that would be amazing. David,

28:01

same thing. David's like, I

28:03

mean, I think about the task

28:05

at hand. Like I,

28:08

when I'm watching TV, I think about the

28:10

TV show that I'm watching and I don't

28:12

really, and I'm like, so you're not thinking

28:14

about like, do I really exist? And am

28:17

I good enough in this life? And

28:20

you're not like in

28:22

with your thoughts. I replay

28:24

every conversation I have with somebody.

28:27

Yeah, but that's only 100%. I

28:30

replay every conversation. How wild is that

28:32

that it's only 30 to 50% of the

28:34

population though, that has that going on and

28:36

then that makes more sense to me because

28:38

I'm like, maybe that's how people

28:40

are able to like be

28:43

crappy to other people and steal

28:45

and cheat and lie. And

28:48

they don't have that in a monologue, just yelling

28:50

at them all the time and having fights. Well,

28:53

they, they can spin off and they can

28:55

move on. I can't move on. Same. I

28:57

have a difficulty to move on. I play

28:59

it over and over, even though I can't

29:01

change history, even though I can't,

29:03

I try to replay it in my mind instead

29:06

of saying, look, today's gone. Whether

29:08

you did good or you did bad, you better

29:10

focus on tomorrow. I'm still replaying

29:12

today, tomorrow, yesterday, a week ago,

29:14

and it's exhausting. It is a

29:16

very tiring way to live, but

29:19

it forces me to think better,

29:22

to never make the same mistake twice,

29:24

at least try not to, but

29:27

it's exhausting. Yeah. It's exhausting

29:29

and you just sometimes want to break

29:31

from it. And, but I do

29:35

like Liz was saying, like, I kind of like the

29:37

people up in my head. Like they, they've helped me

29:39

in a lot of ways. They've gotten me some

29:41

good times. Like my, I

29:43

couldn't write without them. I need them. I

29:46

need the voices in my head because my

29:48

anxiety helps my writing. It just, it does.

29:50

And I think that's what's given me like

29:53

a, maybe a more distinctive writer's voice and

29:55

you know, people search for their writer's

29:57

voice for years and years. And I think.

30:00

is was established at birth because of

30:05

my window in my Brookline

30:07

apartment no

30:35

no subway so we live so the

30:38

subway would go the above ground I guess so in Boston

30:45

we call it this like the

30:47

L and the train Chicago yeah

30:49

exactly exactly and so at night

30:51

you could see in because the lights were on in

30:53

the train and so you could see and it'd be

30:56

packed full of people and I could I just remember

30:58

sitting there night after night just watching them sort of

31:00

you know before dinner around dinner and

31:03

wondering how to have a conversation I

31:05

would watch people a lot I

31:07

didn't know how to have a conversation so

31:09

I would practice conversations in my head at

31:11

that age so I think that's sort of

31:13

like when that forms right so that you

31:15

go to become a writer and

31:17

it's like already there for me and it's saying

31:19

that that writer search for all

31:21

the time so I would be very sad if my

31:24

if my inside voice is left but they

31:26

don't tell me to murder that's good they

31:28

don't they don't create conflicting there's no demonic voice

31:30

up there they're all very good people yeah

31:35

in fact my mom mine tell me not to

31:37

murder you

31:40

can't do that Mandy you need to take a

31:42

step back and chill out things are hard but

31:44

you could get through this yeah I mean it

31:48

would be very nice to be like Jim

31:50

and sit there and I love Jim Bannon

31:52

he's a very smart lawyer but Jen

31:55

is just able to focus on he he's

31:58

a criminal defense attorney and he's a to

32:00

just sit down, focus on

32:02

the crime at hand, the task

32:05

at hand, whatever, and then

32:07

he can get up and leave and really not

32:09

think about like it doesn't linger with him as

32:11

much. He just described Alex Myrtle. You guys

32:13

just described Alex Myrtle. No Jim's not a-

32:16

He's got no voices in his head. No,

32:19

no, no, no, no. I'm saying Jim's a

32:21

good guy. Alex Myrtle has no voice in his

32:23

head. Yes. No voices in his head.

32:25

There's no governor. There's no, maybe you shouldn't

32:28

do this. No board of directors. Hey, he

32:30

does it and he moves on. He's

32:32

his own board of directors. Exactly. Can you

32:35

imagine if we recast the Murdoch

32:37

murder story with Alec with like

32:39

a Jewish voice inside him? Like

32:42

no, but like the Jewish guilt

32:44

of like having that burden on

32:46

his soul that he has to

32:48

do. Right. Oh, what

32:51

have I done? Like, no, I

32:53

can't even- Should I steal millions

32:55

from Gloria's family or maybe just

32:57

give them a few dollars? Or

32:59

do I take some of the money and give it to charity

33:01

and that way it'll make me feel a little bit better. It's

33:03

not as bad. Yeah, what if

33:05

I participate in the

33:08

PMPAD Santa giveaway? That will

33:10

make things better. But

33:12

not even just like him planning his

33:15

crimes and like considering whether they're moral

33:17

or not. Just like him spinning

33:19

out of control. I really love that. Just

33:21

like having a moment of just like people

33:23

are going to think of me as a

33:25

murderer now, but I'm not really a murderer.

33:27

Like I can just like have him having

33:29

that sort of dialogue. Right. How does he play?

33:31

Yeah, I think that would be kind of funny. I

33:33

think that would be actually a good stage

33:36

production. Right. But I think it's

33:38

been like mind blowing to me

33:40

to be like, that's how

33:42

we're different. Like that just doesn't exist in

33:44

it. And I think his mind is just

33:46

in prison and his mind is just like,

33:48

I'm going to do a Super Bowl bet

33:50

today or blah, blah, blah. He's a narcissist.

33:53

Right. And people who are narcissists don't

33:55

have voices to tell him, don't

33:57

do that. Let's see who I can manipulate today. But

34:02

it's not sitting there being like,

34:04

what is Maggie's family thinking of me

34:06

right now? And I am...

34:08

I'd be mortified. Right. And

34:11

just shame. I would have died

34:13

of shame by now if I was six for

34:15

August. There's

34:17

no way I could have survived because

34:19

recently I've had and I was telling David, again

34:23

explaining this whole inner dialogue

34:25

thing and when I have

34:27

anxiety attacks which I've had more in

34:29

the past couple years, my

34:32

inner dialogue is just screaming and there's

34:34

so much noise and it becomes hard

34:36

to breathe, it turns from your brain

34:38

is on fire to

34:41

your body

34:46

is out of control and you don't have control

34:48

over your body anymore and it's a really, really

34:50

beyond weird feeling. And

34:54

all that said, it's like, yeah,

34:56

I mean there's... And

34:58

these are things I get

35:01

like that sometimes when I am

35:03

just thinking of worst case scenarios

35:05

and the worst case scenario is shouting in

35:07

my head like this is what's going to

35:09

happen, this could happen blah, blah, blah. And

35:12

then it gets so bad that I can't breathe. I

35:15

could never survive. I would not

35:17

be able to breathe if I

35:19

did what Alex Murdock did to

35:21

other human beings because like I

35:23

would just die of

35:26

a panic attack immediately because

35:28

I would feel so much shame. Would

35:30

you stay with your in-laws for a month after

35:33

you killed their daughter and

35:35

their grandson and eat

35:37

at the table and look at them and

35:39

talk about, you know, God, I miss her

35:41

so much, you know, and you killed her?

35:43

I mean, what kind of animal could do

35:46

that? Speaking of, I

35:48

think this is a good transition. That's

35:50

another big thing that Michael

35:53

Kalushi has in common with

35:55

Alex Murdock. He stayed with

35:57

the family. Did you know that list? Have we talked

35:59

about that? I haven't gotten to that part

36:01

in the testimony yet, but yeah, we talked

36:04

about that, about the- that came out in

36:06

testimony, right? After his wife was killed or

36:08

he killed his wife, we'll find out. He

36:11

stayed with his in-laws family, and

36:14

I just think that that is

36:16

so bizarre. I mean,

36:18

if he did kill her, and

36:20

Alex definitely did. Crazy! Yeah, to

36:23

look them in the eye every

36:25

morning, to eat breakfast with him

36:27

and say, we're gonna find him,

36:29

it's gonna be okay, like, that

36:31

is psychotic, narcissistic,

36:35

awful. It's just

36:37

the worst of humanity. Or is

36:39

it smart? To be close

36:41

to your enemy, you know, Michael Corleone said,

36:43

or- That's right. Don Corleone, keep your enemies

36:46

close, your friends close, your enemies closer. Do

36:48

you get close to the family, too? You

36:50

want to hear what they're thinking, that they're

36:53

not gonna turn on you. Was that a

36:55

strategic way that he did that? It's strategy.

36:57

Yeah. It's not just

36:59

strategy, it's trademarked by the Murdoch

37:01

family. That is their strategy, is

37:03

they go right to the nexus,

37:05

they go right to the center of where the

37:08

punch point might be for them. They did that

37:10

during the boat crash. They put

37:12

themselves front and center because, sort

37:14

of the same way, and I don't mean

37:16

to compare, I'm not comparing the Murdoch family to this,

37:19

just to be clear, but I'm just saying that the

37:21

sort of, like, the same essence of this, but, you

37:24

know, when you see, like, a domestic violence survivor,

37:26

or in the act of it, and

37:28

the husband enters the room, he wants to be

37:30

present there, so that if her

37:32

family asks her a question, she

37:35

can't answer it honestly, right? She

37:37

can't be forthcoming because he's standing

37:39

right there. So I think it's

37:41

harder. We certainly know

37:43

that Marianne knew something about their

37:45

marriage. It would be very difficult

37:48

to answer those questions in a

37:50

very unflinching, raw way. And

37:52

your grieving brother-in-law is staying in

37:54

your same house because you

37:56

know that law enforcement views the husband as

37:59

a potential victim. suspect from the get-go. So

38:02

it would alter your way of

38:04

dealing with law enforcement. You

38:06

would want to keep that privacy because

38:09

I think maybe in the Kaluchi trial,

38:11

we saw the neighbor testify. This was

38:14

Sarah Lynn and Michael's neighbor. And,

38:16

you know, she testified about a fight that

38:18

she had heard. But she had

38:20

originally in her written statement to police,

38:22

I believe, didn't point that out

38:25

to them or said, you know, she hadn't

38:27

really heard, you know, anything. And when she

38:29

tried to explain on the stand why she

38:31

said what she said to the police versus

38:33

what, you know, she was testifying to now,

38:36

it's one of those moments that's like amazing for

38:38

a defense attorney, right? Eric, because you get that

38:41

in, you can start punching away at that. But

38:43

I understood completely, like, can you imagine being

38:46

asked about a neighbor that you considered a

38:48

friend and you don't want to air their

38:50

dirty laundry and you certainly don't want the

38:52

husband who you couldn't imagine doing anything awful

38:54

to the wife. But then there's that little

38:57

part of your brain where you're like, well,

38:59

now it's put in context. Now these fights

39:01

that I heard, I kind of,

39:03

you know, is it important? Is it not? Do I say

39:05

something? Because once I say something, they're going to go down

39:07

that road. But now that now that they've identified

39:10

him as a suspect, now I can say something.

39:12

But it's completely rendered useless because the defense

39:14

attorney can jump all over that. So

39:17

yeah, that's why that's why bad people put themselves

39:20

in places like that, right? It's sort of,

39:22

I just can't imagine what the Murdoch family

39:24

or the Marion family felt. I

39:26

can't imagine that. Just the idea that this like

39:28

demonic presence was there, keeping an eye on them.

39:30

Yeah. And

39:33

with that said, we'll be right back. Without

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the ones like you who work tirelessly to

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ones who get it done. So

40:18

Liz, I told you guys

40:20

that the special referee in

40:22

the Beach case had

40:25

an order where he denied the

40:27

Satterfields and the Plylers motion to

40:29

reconsider. You recall that he

40:31

made an award and did not give

40:33

the Satterfields and the Plylers any money.

40:36

And so we made a motion to reconsider, and

40:38

then he demanded

40:40

that we file with the court

40:42

a statement setting forth the exact

40:44

amounts that each got. And the

40:46

Satterfields, I always said, you

40:48

know, because of the agreements that we got more than seven

40:50

and a half million, I had to disclose that we actually

40:52

got $9.32 million for

40:55

them from a multitude of sources,

40:57

none from Alex Murdall. And then

40:59

for the Plyler sisters, we got $850,000. And

41:02

so we made a motion to reconsider because to me,

41:05

it seemed inconceivable that there

41:07

wouldn't be any money from

41:10

Alex Murdall awarded to the

41:13

Satterfields, the Plylers,

41:15

because they were true victims of his. And

41:17

that, yes, they were very fortunate and a

41:19

lot of grace to get money from other

41:21

sources, but it's, you

41:23

know, symbolic that they

41:25

should have gotten something

41:28

and it was denied. And so I

41:30

sent out a tweet saying, you know,

41:32

I'm just tremendously disappointed for my clients

41:35

and it's going to take a while to get over it. And a lot of

41:37

people responded back, they

41:40

got enough money and they may have.

41:42

And, you know, there's some

41:44

people that didn't get any money and that's true too,

41:47

but I still can feel bad

41:49

for my clients. So that is what

41:51

happened on Friday. And, You

41:53

know, I do feel bad. I feel like that

41:55

Alex Got away by not having to give some

41:57

money to the Satterfields and the Plylers. Well.

42:00

I think to make the that point clear here

42:02

is that. Other people cleaned

42:04

up Alex mass. They

42:07

had liability in the matter of course, right? The

42:09

bank, the law firm. what have you. Buy.

42:11

It. L Like is the one

42:13

who created this mess in the

42:16

first place and he is heavily

42:18

depending. On. Net the South and

42:20

he you guys were the first out of the

42:22

gate. so you got the lion's share of the

42:24

insurance money. From. These agents. Imagine.

42:27

Because. They didn't know the the

42:29

scope of his crimes and they might have

42:32

known. They just didn't know the scope of

42:34

the people that would want their money back

42:36

if if you don't I'm saying so. I

42:38

think. I. Think hit at does. He.

42:41

I can see why. I can see

42:43

why you feel that when I think

42:45

that people who are criticizing are missing

42:47

the point which is not necessarily like.

42:49

Okay, Let's let's look at what each person guy

42:52

and certainly the hospice and or a that's just

42:54

it dies. By. I totally from that

42:56

angle. I totally get what you're saying Eric. Points.

42:59

Accountability and I seen it.

43:01

It is extremely frustrating like

43:03

we were talking about last

43:05

week is Alex is placing

43:07

five thousand dollar bets in

43:10

prison. There's money somewhere

43:12

like a he has access

43:14

to money somewhere and he

43:16

is one of the seal

43:18

innocent, higher scenario. Who. Is

43:20

managed to squeeze his way out

43:22

really without paying anybody lake. I.

43:25

Don't a A he's just said

43:28

from day wire know. I.

43:30

Don't have any money and that's how he got

43:32

his with the whole. That's. Howard's as

43:34

this whole mess became a massive the

43:36

Beach case and he didn't wanna pay

43:38

for that and it. A

43:40

He still. Money still

43:43

matters. Damn money is still helping

43:45

him in way in certain ways

43:47

in prison and we know there

43:49

are people feeding him money. In.

43:51

Prison and. I

43:53

don't like that he can get extra

43:56

obese decks. When. it

43:58

a he can get extra be six. One

44:00

point and then give zero dollars to

44:02

the players are the sadder fields and

44:04

I know believes in he just had

44:06

one point seven million dollars that was

44:08

recovered by the receivers in that stood

44:10

near the extent of his bow me.

44:12

I believe that just. And even

44:14

scratch the surface. Meeting.

44:17

Not that they didn't they were only able

44:19

to find what they were able to find.

44:21

And Nine right? you. Can farm which can

44:23

find. Right? right? And I do think

44:25

that there is some help Their I

44:27

do think that there is. An

44:29

investigation on still going on into

44:31

where the money is. So

44:34

I hope that that. Ends. Up with

44:36

something. I think there's more incentives now. Eric, I

44:38

mean I don't know what part you can play

44:40

and not making sure that. You. Hold an

44:42

investigator or. Yeah, I gotta turn your

44:44

judgment right? So and the entirety. Of we have

44:46

a turn your judgment. May be worth a meeting

44:49

with F B I to talk about where

44:51

you know where what they're up to. him

44:53

were there I'd with their investigation. So.

44:55

Another think we need to mention the dead and one

44:57

of the gross. This. Things. That we seen in

45:00

a long time. I mean, Is Johnny Parker

45:02

getting dark? Some of the money that he

45:04

loaned and I almost at it like more

45:06

than the Pm Pt getting their money, some

45:09

of their money back. Or more

45:11

offended by the Johnny Parker bet because this

45:13

is a man who gave alec hundreds of

45:15

thousands of dollars with no collateral. In.

45:17

A personal loan. Knowing that he was

45:19

her hurting each for-knowing that he was

45:22

a leading- right? Or

45:24

I would also presumed that he knew

45:26

that the law firm suspected him of

45:28

taking almost eight hundred thousand dollars at

45:30

that be missing. So I N N

45:32

and we also know that there was

45:34

a history there Have Alec doing some.

45:37

You know, Rascal he things with six

45:39

figure amounts of money. So. I

45:41

think with all of that knowledge, Johnny Parker made

45:44

a bad deal. He took a bad

45:46

risk any lost on it and I don't think

45:48

I when it comes down to the victims I

45:50

shouldn't have to lose out on that. and I

45:52

I. I don't know how the judge

45:54

is okay with that. I don't know. That's

45:56

the one decision that really does not sit

45:58

well with me. Tony Parker

46:00

getting money, Cause. Either that's

46:02

what we base their own. Yes, Sir. Now

46:05

let's talk about. Our. Favorite

46:07

Federal inmates. At. This

46:09

time we we only have. We. Have

46:11

to. We have Corey Fleming but are are

46:13

I think more favorite my more favors resolutely

46:16

because I still. Am. Fascinated by

46:18

the Russell Tv that he did

46:20

before his trial, I'm fascinated by.

46:22

The ways gone through. Lawyers and Not

46:24

A And lawyers. This. I. Just we're

46:27

going to get the chance to depose him

46:29

and we're going to Florida to do it.

46:31

I can't wait to depose and because I

46:33

just to get inside this guy's mind will

46:35

be he all pay for it. So. I.

46:37

Think it's gonna be very disappointing. Don't

46:41

think there's a lot they're not account full of are. At.

46:43

Fault of their. Oh

46:45

that. Is

46:47

I have a city council? He doesn't have

46:49

one Mandy. I don't think here act

46:51

Atlanta and I does not. There's no

46:54

board of directors. Meeting and Russell. Had

46:56

that's for sure it's a on

46:58

than I do it that that.

47:01

Let me buy a straw hat today. Boot The

47:03

loop. The Loop. But. I am interested

47:05

to see for you to see

47:07

what his federal prison is like.

47:10

Will. Have a video the the deposition

47:12

sir in a know that. You've been

47:14

inside as a D. C Visiting.

47:17

Prison. Places and I

47:19

would love to see the

47:21

comparison because. Again, he

47:23

is fighting there so hard to

47:25

send. Now with these. Very,

47:28

very lengthy responses.

47:30

And. Taking

47:32

up a time of

47:35

resources citing his case.

47:38

And were as. I would

47:40

just saying as an if you're looking

47:42

at federal time or state time you

47:44

just cannot deal with sadr all and

47:47

keep your head down but no no

47:49

no I mean he is fighting this

47:51

to the now. And.

47:54

S. Eight would come to

47:56

the point of him. Getting.

47:59

His conviction. vacated. For

48:02

some reason, he's still facing

48:04

down a lot of state charges

48:06

and he has just as much

48:08

evidence against him in state court

48:10

as he did in federal court

48:13

and... But it's not vacated. It would

48:15

be reversed and remanded for a new

48:17

trial. So he would have a new

48:20

federal trial and where does he get off thinking

48:22

that he would be held not guilty? I mean,

48:25

I get it that we're homers. I get it

48:27

that we're a little slanted but we

48:29

heard that trial and for

48:31

me that wasn't even close. It wasn't

48:33

a close call. Was that

48:35

a close call for you guys? You

48:37

listened to the trial. Not

48:39

for us but for the jury.

48:41

Unfortunately, that's what worries me is that

48:44

with the jury issues that exist. There

48:46

was that one lady. Yeah, they

48:49

just had jury problems. Right.

48:51

I got it but I'm saying in

48:53

a normal situation, is it close? It

48:56

wasn't close. Again, and that's what I was

48:58

thinking about when I saw

49:01

that the federal government was going

49:03

to have like a hundred-page response to

49:05

his appeal. It just makes me so

49:08

freaking angry because we sat

49:10

there day in and day out and

49:12

not only did they have stacks of

49:14

evidence but they had witnesses to corroborate

49:16

the stacks of evidence. I mean, it

49:18

was pretty clear-cut each

49:21

charge and the federal

49:23

government did know what they were doing

49:25

when they were prosecuting that case. I mean, it

49:27

was like, here's what he did

49:29

here. Here's the proof of that. I mean,

49:32

Russell's team didn't have a lot to

49:35

argue off of besides like, he's a

49:37

nice guy. He's

49:39

a nice guy. No,

49:42

that the family had the votes

49:44

to do this and that he had the

49:46

support of his father and his sister and

49:48

they didn't have to go to the board

49:51

of directors and you may criticize his business

49:53

judgment but he made a decision, a banking

49:55

decision to keep loaning Alex money may have

49:57

been wrong but it's not criminal. That was

49:59

basically their defense. Right. Russell

50:01

can't admit defeat, Lefate

50:04

strikes again, right? I mean, it's,

50:07

I really want to forget this person, like

50:09

I don't want to talk about him anymore.

50:11

I think of all that, like if we

50:13

have a collector's card edition of the criminals

50:15

in this, he is the least interesting to

50:18

me but yet the one

50:20

kicking and screaming and then on

50:22

top of which, I

50:24

do worry that the claims that, you

50:27

know, the argument instead of claims, the

50:29

argument that his team is

50:31

making for a new trial, it

50:34

worries me because of how that

50:36

all went down. I think Judge

50:38

Gergel is obviously a really smart

50:40

man and I think he did a lot

50:43

to preserve his own record there but I

50:46

do think that there's sort of, when

50:48

I hear the arguments about

50:50

how that should have gone down, I can

50:53

kind of understand where the defense is coming

50:55

from on that. So I do

50:57

worry about that but I wanted to ask you, Eric, so

51:00

let's just say that it gets remanded to a

51:02

new trial. Let's just say that his conviction gets

51:04

overturned. Will he then have

51:06

the ability to strike a plea deal

51:09

with the government knowing how badly it

51:11

went for him, how poorly it went

51:13

the first time around? Yes. Really? Yes.

51:15

Yes. If

51:18

the federal government wants to offer a

51:20

reasonable plea, now he was offered a

51:23

very reasonable plea, remember, and he turned

51:25

it down against, supposedly

51:28

against the advice of Matt Austin

51:30

and Bart Daniel. He turned

51:32

it down. The question

51:34

is, I don't remember that part. Is that

51:37

what happened? I think there was some deal

51:39

and it wasn't acceptable. Would he be offered probably something?

51:46

You know, he's going to serve

51:49

the year. Maybe

51:51

there would be a sentence of

51:53

five years or four years. But

51:55

again, like Mandy said, he's facing

51:57

state court charges and Creighton Waters.

52:00

Wilson aren't going to do him any favors.

52:02

And now that we know that Creighton Waters can

52:04

really put together a trial, I'm very

52:07

comforted if it goes to a state court trial Creighton

52:09

Waters is going to light them up. Todd

52:12

Rutherford versus Creighton Waters, that's

52:14

not a fair fight. No,

52:17

it really isn't. But also, I

52:19

mean, it's just going back to, I think,

52:21

when we're talking about like the spectrum of crimes

52:23

here, you can look at Russell's as

52:26

maybe the least, I guess, I don't

52:28

even want to say that, like the least horrifying, but

52:30

I mean, there was no murder involved, what have you.

52:33

But we're also, we're talking

52:35

about a, no, he took money

52:37

from the pliers. Whoa, whoa, whoa. No,

52:39

no, but let me finish my thought first. Yeah,

52:41

let me finish my thought though, because what I'm

52:43

saying is like, there is a spectrum. I'm sorry,

52:45

murder is worse than stealing money. It just is,

52:47

right? The loss of life. Okay, so. I agree.

52:49

I agree. That said, it

52:52

goes back to, I mean, like we have the

52:54

big sign behind Mandy's head, blood on their hands.

52:56

It's if you don't hold the people who allowed

52:58

these things to happen in the first place, because

53:00

if you look at the trail of what led

53:03

to Maggie and Paul's murder, Russell

53:05

Laffite is on that trail and

53:07

he's walking right beside, he's

53:10

walking right beside Alec, helping him, whether or not

53:12

he wants to admit that to himself. So

53:15

I think it can, even if we want to just, even

53:18

if you gave him the benefit of the doubt and said

53:20

that he did not know the extent of what Alec

53:23

was up to, he knew something was up. He knew that he

53:25

was breaking the law. He knew that he was breaking the

53:27

rules and he knew that he

53:29

was granting this person greatly way above all

53:31

others. So those are things that he did

53:33

have in his little knowledge bag that he was holding

53:35

as he was walking with Alec. So I think

53:38

it's important that we did have that backstop

53:40

with the state government. So I am

53:42

glad for that, but I am worried that there could

53:45

be a plea deal that allows him to have time

53:47

served and call it a day. I don't think it'll be

53:49

time served, but it could be less time

53:51

than if he's convicted. You know,

53:53

you guys expressed to me some of your fears

53:56

On the April 1st Federal sentencing

53:58

that you're concerned. During that there's

54:00

a possibility that a take couldn't go.

54:03

It could go away in a way

54:05

that we're gonna be disappointed. That.

54:07

Possibly he could get a concurrent.

54:09

said he spent. Charge girl who could

54:11

give him a lot of time. But. He

54:13

could make it run concurrently with his state

54:16

courts ends where we always thought they. Well.

54:18

The backstop was he do is stay court

54:20

twenty three years and if he can live.

54:23

To. Be seventy eight years old. he gets

54:25

out of their state prison any as to

54:27

go walk the federal prison. But. You

54:29

raise a good specter. could it be a

54:31

concurrent sense? And then you said. Could.

54:34

It is there a possibility that somehow he

54:36

could yeah Kim from state prison in Macomb,

54:38

serve his time in Federal prison. The.

54:40

Answer on the first one is that is

54:43

a possibility dance from the second is now

54:45

the stay had primacy the state convicted and

54:47

first. So. Alex will have to do.

54:50

That. Twenty three years. But. What?

54:52

Would fears do you guys have

54:54

with with his sentencing? Is it

54:56

gonna be everything we want or

54:58

could be? A. Little bit of

55:00

something, but not a lot of everything. I.

55:03

Have a little. Concerns.

55:06

Are fears about this? Be

55:08

kind? Either. Five, I

55:10

was full faith in the

55:13

stay locking up Alex Moran

55:15

for the rest. As live.

55:17

On. That as. The beginning and

55:19

end of that. I.

55:22

Don't. I just don't

55:24

think that it matters a whole lot

55:26

what happens in federal court. and I

55:28

also think that it's gonna be a.

55:31

Good. Scanners and now spin out

55:33

and do then getting a victory

55:35

in some way, shape or form

55:37

but it's not gonna matter like.

55:41

He I do see. I mean

55:43

if it was concurrent then I

55:45

guess that would be a problem.

55:48

That again like. Is Alex Live

55:50

in The Seventy Eighth. The. Answers:

55:52

probably not. Raid. And. And

55:54

and when he dies as he just gonna

55:56

Lol So I'd I'd I women are we

55:58

gonna carry that point that he's in Federal

56:00

for it? I mean. I.

56:03

Hope I'm not carrying at that point.

56:05

I hope that and those the name

56:07

Alex Murdoch of way out of my

56:09

vocabulary at that point. but I ain't

56:12

Yes, I'm honestly debating about going to

56:14

Charleston and on because unlike what is

56:16

the point of this. What? Do

56:18

you Think lists? My fear is

56:20

that. I'm going to be disappointed

56:22

again by the federal government and just

56:24

because I think they allow themselves to

56:26

be upon and ness. A lot

56:28

at I think they allowed themselves to get manipulated

56:31

to a certain extent, but not only just manipulated.

56:33

I feel like they were brought in as like

56:35

the. You. Know sort of like

56:37

the mannered managers when I you don't, you

56:39

take over company and you don't really like

56:41

the said a manager is that they have

56:43

you bring in another Sat right to manage

56:45

those managers out and. I. Feel like

56:48

that's what the federal government did to some

56:50

extent. They They were brought in as like

56:52

the more. Senior. Managers and

56:54

this and what they were able to do. Is.

56:57

Manage some people out of getting in trouble and

56:59

I don't like that at all and and we

57:01

go back to Russell. See it like his family.

57:04

And. We look at some other people. Props:

57:07

Enough even associated with Pm Pt.

57:10

I feel like. For even from some of

57:12

the things that we know that were brought to the

57:14

attention of the federal prosecutors. De sac

57:16

that there is we have seen know

57:18

nothing. Com Assad is a disappointment. So

57:20

what bothers me is and on April

57:23

first I think that gurgle. I. Think

57:25

if I'm gurgle and have pointless to sam

57:27

gurgles voices in a sad. I'm

57:30

thinking about Russell, a Seats case and

57:32

whether you know I bungle.and is that

57:34

gonna hold? as are going to Stack

57:36

and what's the conversation? Like so many

57:38

know that on April first I'm going

57:40

to need to come out with some

57:42

sort of personality, some sort of point

57:44

of view that that is sticking. With.

57:47

The public when it comes to Alex sentencing

57:49

that we will see use that. As.

57:51

A way to. Admonish.

57:53

Alec in a meaningful way. Or.

57:56

Will this be another? Loves us for

57:58

so Barber and carp. That mean. I.

58:01

Don't know, that's those are the only things

58:03

I fear. is this sort of like wow,

58:05

is the federal government going to comport itself?

58:07

Yeah I and a just to add to

58:09

that late. I. Think at the end

58:11

of the day. It. Is their

58:13

fault that we do not know where the

58:15

money as I think they're right. There could

58:18

have been a they could replace a lot

58:20

harder. They could have charged a lot more

58:22

people. They could have asked a lot more

58:24

people, lot more questions an. Something

58:27

stop like they. They seem to have

58:29

held back on a lot and they

58:31

seem to have been protecting people in

58:33

their quest to find where the money

58:36

was. A and. I.

58:39

Want. To say that it's just

58:42

it's a large disappointment in a

58:44

failure on their behalf. Sir

58:46

thing that you said lose the and mandy

58:48

did. You believe that there

58:51

could have been other possible charges.

58:53

With. People affiliated with the bag and that

58:55

there could have been. Other. Possible

58:58

charges. With Alex his

59:00

fellow lawyers. Yeah, I

59:02

mean I remember during the

59:05

Lucy trial there were several

59:07

days where. I. Would

59:10

be taxing. Just sayin. are you

59:12

area court lives and saying like

59:14

they just admitted to a crime?

59:17

Understand what's gonna happen here? I

59:19

mean that happened many times and.

59:22

That's. The most disappointing thing about all

59:24

of this, and that's the hardest. Dirt

59:27

to swallow with the entire Murdoch

59:29

story. And when people want say

59:31

like aren't you so proud of the worst the

59:33

you've done blah blah blah. Yeah,

59:36

I'm proud that lake some people that

59:38

charge and I'm proud that some people

59:40

were held accountable but not the entire

59:43

system and not every person a proper

59:45

this evil person up for a very

59:47

long time and. Contributed to

59:50

these crimes and enabled these

59:52

crimes. Most of them have

59:54

gone. I've walked out

59:56

of this guilt free. Dirt.

59:59

very exaggerate. And that makes me very

1:00:01

angry. I was totally wrong. About a

1:00:03

year and a half ago, I said to one of

1:00:05

my closest friends, who's a lawyer, I bet him. I

1:00:08

said the only people that are going down

1:00:10

aren't just Russell, Alex, and Corey.

1:00:13

There is going to be other people

1:00:15

charged, and I believe there will be a judge

1:00:17

or two that may have to step down because

1:00:19

of all this. And I'm

1:00:22

beginning to think now I am wrong. I

1:00:24

was wrong. I think it could just be this three.

1:00:26

That's it. The Trinity. You're just

1:00:28

thinking, Matt, or you have sources who have told

1:00:31

you that. No, no. No sources. I'm

1:00:33

thinking that I was wrong. Because

1:00:36

we've had sources in law enforcement and

1:00:38

people who are close to these cases

1:00:40

tell us that it was for sure

1:00:42

that some of these people would be

1:00:44

getting charged because there's no can't

1:00:46

unsee it, right? And so

1:00:48

the fact that we were told this stuff, we

1:00:51

know what it is. We know who said it. We

1:00:54

know what was shared with whom. So

1:00:58

we sit here from a really weird spot because

1:01:00

it's like, I want to

1:01:02

have faith. I really do. And I just,

1:01:05

sadly, I don't know if I do either, Eric.

1:01:07

I don't. It has to. I

1:01:09

mean, honestly, Ella can't be. He's not the

1:01:12

only one here. So. What

1:01:14

do you think, Mandy? Do you think it's these three?

1:01:16

That's it, Mandy? These three? That's

1:01:18

it? Yeah. And

1:01:20

I think that we have

1:01:22

to keep pushing and keep

1:01:25

encouraging the public to ask questions

1:01:27

of their government and keep

1:01:31

asking questions about like, what

1:01:33

about Carmen Mullen? I think those

1:01:35

things still do matter. And I think that

1:01:37

there's no... I

1:01:40

don't think we're past the point of it's

1:01:44

just water under the bridge.

1:01:46

Everybody's moved on. I

1:01:49

think that there still is time and

1:01:51

they could. But

1:01:53

my gut is telling me that

1:01:57

they went through the... They

1:01:59

did the first... layer of Alex,

1:02:01

Corey and Russell and

1:02:03

there's somebody in the second layer that

1:02:06

they are protecting or multiple

1:02:08

people in the second layer that they do

1:02:10

not want to cut into and once

1:02:13

you cut into that, it's

1:02:16

game over. You can't stop. And I... It's

1:02:18

an artery. It's an artery and

1:02:21

the second layer is an artery and

1:02:23

it is a system changing situation. That was

1:02:25

an odd amount of pay. What

1:02:27

do you have coming up, Mandy? I'm going to

1:02:29

Wichita on April 11th and then the

1:02:32

West Coast at the end of the

1:02:34

month. I'm excited about that. I'm

1:02:36

happy I finished my book, Anything But Bland.

1:02:38

Nice. Earlier last week I talked to you

1:02:40

about it. It was harder than I thought.

1:02:43

Takes a lot of time. My

1:02:45

website, www.theairrk, lands up. So

1:02:47

my personal website, something pretty

1:02:49

cool about that. And

1:02:51

how about you, Liz? Tell us what's going on with

1:02:53

you. It's springtime up there in Maryland. What's it like

1:02:55

where you are near the Naval Academy?

1:02:58

It's chilly. I do want to

1:03:00

tell you guys a quick little story. So

1:03:02

there was a stabbing here a

1:03:05

few weeks ago and there's not a

1:03:07

whole lot of information that's

1:03:10

given to the public from the police agencies up

1:03:12

here that I've noticed. And there just seems to

1:03:14

be... I mean, it's... I never

1:03:16

thought I would say like Beaufort County seems

1:03:18

like it's so sophisticated compared to where I

1:03:20

live now, even though it's outside. Like I'm

1:03:23

in a major metropolitan area. So

1:03:25

I called them out on Twitter and

1:03:28

people who follow me on Twitter might

1:03:30

have seen that the PIO of the

1:03:32

Bel Air Police Department came back at

1:03:34

me pretty obnoxiously because I had said

1:03:36

like there was no public information

1:03:39

about this. So what we have to go by is

1:03:41

this like, you know, non-authorized

1:03:43

like blog that people follow

1:03:45

here that was just like a single sentence.

1:03:48

And the problem is, is that there's a lot

1:03:50

of development up here and people are locked in

1:03:52

this argument of like, here comes Baltimore.

1:03:54

You know what I mean? Like there's just

1:03:56

sort of fear that people have that like it's crime's getting worse

1:03:58

and blah, blah, blah. That was probably target

1:04:01

a crime and it turned out it was

1:04:03

right. So it's the P I had you

1:04:05

sad like this is a targeted prime The

1:04:07

two people were arrested. You're not. there's no

1:04:09

into danger like that's all they have to

1:04:11

sex. But. Anyway, The. Other

1:04:13

day someone drove there like

1:04:15

f one fifty. Into.

1:04:17

Our bagel shop here and it

1:04:19

is like really good bagel shop

1:04:21

actually. And it says

1:04:23

i understand why this is.

1:04:26

A big deal. But. No one was

1:04:28

hurt. Drove through the went over, It into

1:04:30

it right be to than parking lot. The guy

1:04:32

went the wrong direction like eve especially back out

1:04:34

he went forward right or cal translate into the

1:04:36

building A owns. The Belgian

1:04:38

Police Department put out a war and

1:04:41

peace style press release on the thing.

1:04:43

Like. They hide it in in for

1:04:45

me like they were on it like the

1:04:48

bagel shop that. Griffin and see

1:04:50

if they are on it. We knew there were no. Injuries:

1:04:52

We knew that fellow drivers

1:04:54

sat down after hitting the

1:04:56

building. And was shaken. And

1:04:58

had a pumper, new web address, mouse, any. Apologize

1:05:00

They put that he apologized and I'm like

1:05:02

this is a lot of detail year. And

1:05:05

then they went to like the zoning

1:05:07

department and sound out like how what

1:05:09

and six was the processes in a

1:05:11

be to get them fails up back

1:05:13

at at six. It had. Like

1:05:16

chapters Ellis the news story like third

1:05:18

party mean it was like me, did

1:05:20

I do this I like that. maybe

1:05:22

my outrage another to do a net

1:05:24

like they're doing it now you know,

1:05:26

like they're past. Their press releases are

1:05:28

just like gonna be like extra you

1:05:30

know? but now I'm I'm pretty sure

1:05:32

it was low hanging fruit or low

1:05:34

hanging bagels. That. They are able like

1:05:36

This is a fun one to write. This is

1:05:38

the one that like no one's hurt, know and

1:05:40

ill and there's a crime committed or what how

1:05:42

the of but I just get a kick out

1:05:44

about. It's like we as the public need information

1:05:46

on the crimes that are committed not just the

1:05:49

that we know what you know our safety with

1:05:51

his quality the like thing right we need to

1:05:53

know our quality of life. But. At

1:05:55

the end of the day we also want to know

1:05:57

that like the rumors aren't true, like there's not a

1:05:59

band. of, you know, stabbers out

1:06:01

there going house to house. So, you

1:06:04

know, like maybe put the bagel,

1:06:06

maybe make the bagel effort a thing that you do

1:06:08

every day when it comes to the crimes. We shouldn't

1:06:10

hide crimes. We need sunlight on the crimes just as

1:06:12

much as we need sunlight on the bagels. But anyway,

1:06:15

I thought that was a fun story. So if

1:06:17

people are like hoping that their police

1:06:19

agencies will give them more information, you might just get

1:06:21

what you're asked for. Well, Dick Harpootlian certainly

1:06:23

didn't like it when they said that

1:06:26

the public wasn't at risk. The next

1:06:28

morning after the Maggie and Paul murders,

1:06:30

he thought it shouldn't have been said,

1:06:32

right? So yeah. With that said, that

1:06:34

got exploited too. And I'll tell you, yeah, I'll tell

1:06:36

you that was, I thought that PAO did a good

1:06:39

job. Yeah, I do

1:06:41

too. Great show guys. Cups

1:06:43

down. Cups down. Great show, everybody.

1:06:57

This is a LunaShark production created by

1:06:59

me, Manny Matney, and co-hosted by

1:07:01

journalist Liz Farrell and attorney Eric Bland.

1:07:04

Learn more about our mission and

1:07:06

membership at lunasharkmedia.com. Interruptions

1:07:09

provided by Luna and Joe Pesky.