0:00

When a divorce happens , it takes

0:02

on average two to four years

0:05

for a newly constructed

0:07

family to find some settled

0:09

safe ground .

0:20

Hello , my dear friend , welcome back to another

0:22

episode of the Curious Neuron podcast . My

0:24

name is Cindy and I am your host . I

0:26

am a mom of three from Montreal , canada , and

0:28

I have a PhD in neuroscience , so if you are new here

0:30

, welcome . We are all

0:33

about sharing the science that will support

0:35

you and your well-being as a

0:37

parent or caregiver , because I know that it's not

0:39

easy and I feel that there's

0:41

a lot out there telling us how to parent . This is

0:43

not the place . This is not the place

0:45

that tells you what to do exactly you

0:48

know , with your child and what you're doing wrong . But

0:50

I want to share the science that supports your well-being

0:52

, because if we are not well as parents and

0:55

caregivers , it's very hard to take care of

0:57

our children . So today we

0:59

are focusing on divorce , because

1:02

I've been getting tons of questions . So even if

1:04

you're not thinking about going through

1:06

a divorce right now , we do

1:08

cover arguing and what that looks like and

1:10

what repair looks like in front of your child

1:12

. So you do want to listen to at least half of this episode

1:14

. It's bear with me , but

1:17

if you are thinking about divorce or if you

1:19

are going through a divorce , we are

1:21

going to divide this episode

1:23

into the before , during and after

1:25

divorce , so that way you know exactly what

1:28

to do depending on which stage you're in and

1:30

how to support your child as well as yourself

1:32

. I have invited a dear

1:34

friend of mine who's also an advisor to Kira Sterron

1:37

. Her name is Dr Tamara Soles . She's

1:39

a psychologist from Montreal and

1:41

I absolutely love everything that she

1:43

shares and her presence is so

1:45

calming , so I'm glad that she agreed

1:48

to join me for this episode . Before

1:50

we begin , as always , I do want to thank the

1:53

Tannenbaum Open Science Institute , as well

1:55

as the McConnell Foundation , because without

1:57

these two organizations , this podcast would

1:59

not be possible . I can do it

2:01

all on my own . I have an amazing team , people

2:04

that are editing the podcast , and

2:06

that funding allows

2:08

me to have those people , and that's why the podcast

2:10

is here . So thank you to Claudia

2:12

and Sadie for supporting and what

2:14

I do and helping me podcast

2:26

. Make sure you've clicked that button and that you leave a rating and write a review if possible

2:28

, because the more of those ratings and reviews that we have even if you just rate it on

2:30

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or the time to write a review this

2:35

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2:43

about it . Share it on a Facebook page

2:45

. Help me get more listeners

2:47

and downloads , because that will definitely allow the podcast

2:50

to continue . I was in California

2:52

last week and had an amazing time with preschool families

2:55

. They welcomed me with open arms and

2:57

I had a great workshop

3:00

with the parents there at that preschool . So if you do

3:02

want a workshop at your school , you

3:04

can email me at info at kirstenroncom

3:07

or at your workplace as well . Some

3:09

companies are allowing

3:11

some of these lunchtime

3:14

talks and I've been doing that as well , so

3:16

it's really important that I think that we continue supporting

3:18

parents in any way possible . Speaking

3:20

of that , I've been getting lots of emails around

3:23

stress and parents struggling with stress and

3:25

knowing that it trickles down to their child . Seeing

3:27

it right , because on the days that you feel stressed , you

3:30

notice that your child's behavior is a little different

3:32

, and so I decided to give a

3:34

free workshop this coming Wednesday

3:37

, may 8th . There is no

3:39

replay , but it's going

3:41

to be with Dr Michelle Kamboulis , who

3:43

was a guest before on the Cures

3:45

Neuron podcast . She um

3:47

supports parents and anybody

3:50

with uh , meditation and

3:52

mindfulness and does it in such

3:54

an amazing way that I knew , when I was going

3:56

to cover her stress , that I needed to

3:58

have her . So you don't want to miss that . She has

4:00

an amazing book as well and we're going to share

4:02

all of that on Wednesday . It is free . So

4:10

come and join , come relax . It's at lunchtime , at 12 on May 8th . So the link is

4:12

in the show notes so that you can register . And if you don't have time to join and

4:14

you're looking for ways to manage

4:16

stress and manage everything that's going

4:18

on in your life , I do have a reflective parent

4:21

journal . The link is in the show notes and remember

4:23

, if you do leave

4:26

a rating and review , you have to write a review

4:28

and you send me a screenshot at info at curesnoncom

4:30

. I will give you a $10 coupon

4:33

for my journal . It is a hundred

4:35

pages and what it does is that it allows

4:37

you to pick certain sections . So , for

4:39

example , if you are struggling with

4:41

work-life balance or if you are struggling with your

4:43

relationship or your self-care

4:45

, then you just go into that section and there are

4:47

reflection prompts that can help you to work

4:49

through that and see what you need to focus on

4:51

and how you can help yourself in

4:54

that area particularly , so it's

4:56

definitely worth it . With the $10 off , it comes out

4:58

to $19.99 . So the

5:00

link is in the show notes as well , and send me

5:02

an email . Okay , we're done . No more

5:04

housekeeping . I promise it

5:07

is an important episode and I enjoyed my conversation

5:09

with Tamara and I hope you do as

5:11

well , and so , my dear friend

5:13

, I hope you enjoy my conversation with

5:15

psychologist Dr Tamara Soles . Hi

5:20

everyone and welcome back , and , as I said at the beginning

5:22

, I'm joined with not just a special guest , but

5:24

somebody who's I think this is your third time returning

5:27

Tamara , and that makes you the

5:29

official person who has come to this podcast

5:31

the most , which I love , so welcome

5:33

back , thank you .

5:35

I'm honored to be here again

5:37

and I always love talking to you .

5:39

You know , today we're going to talk about a topic that's just

5:45

been popping up in my DMs , even on emails

5:48

from people all around the world asking

5:50

questions about divorce . So I think it's time

5:52

that we address this question and I thought you'd

5:55

be the best one to have this conversation around . So

5:57

I think at first , I'm

6:00

a child of divorce . My parents got divorced when

6:02

I was young , and the reason why I want to break

6:04

it down this way is because of what I experienced

6:06

and because of the questions that are coming

6:08

in as well , where I see

6:10

it as the before the divorce , during a

6:12

divorce and after , and that there are lots

6:14

of ways that we can be more mindful of what's happening

6:17

with our children and how we're , sort of as a family

6:19

, navigating all of these difficulties

6:21

. So let's begin with that

6:23

parent who is having a lot

6:25

more heated discussions and arguments

6:27

with their partner , and their kids are around

6:30

. The question I get from parents is is

6:32

it bad to have an

6:34

argument in front of our children , and

6:37

where is the line in terms of how often

6:39

it's happening that can actually have

6:41

an impact on our kids ?

6:42

It's a great question . I'm glad we started there , cindy

6:44

, because arguing and conflict

6:46

is really at the core

6:49

of the outcomes

6:51

for kids who experience divorce , and I'm a child

6:53

of divorce also , so I also

6:55

have personal experience in this area . What

6:58

I would say is not all

7:00

arguing in front of your children is a bad

7:02

thing , right . It really depends on

7:04

how we argue and how

7:07

we disagree with our partners , and so

7:09

I tend to think about it as conflict

7:11

more than arguing . So if

7:13

we are engaged in a discussion

7:17

, and even if it's a slightly heated discussion

7:20

or voices are raised a bit

7:22

, that's okay . Kids

7:24

are used to that in many

7:26

families , but it's how

7:28

we do it . Are we insulting

7:31

our partners ? Are we swearing

7:33

or name-calling ? Are we demonstrating

7:37

good coping strategies

7:39

while in the midst of an argument Is somebody saying I need

7:41

to cool down for a minute , I need to just , you

7:43

know , get some water . Let's talk about this productively

7:45

versus just sort of exploding

7:47

in the house . So the quality of the argument

7:50

is important , but also the

7:52

repair . So I know for a lot of

7:54

families , I mean , arguments happen it's

7:56

common in partnerships but

7:58

do the children actually see the

8:00

partner's repair afterwards ? See

8:07

the partners repair afterwards ? So I just love the idea of having parents , even

8:09

if they've already kind of repaired privately , doing that again in front of your children so

8:12

they can see how they came back together

8:14

afterwards is important Because

8:16

if they , you know , in their relationships

8:19

they're going to have disagreements , and

8:21

it's good modeling for them to see how

8:23

to work through these and it helps

8:26

them feel safe and secure knowing

8:28

how their parents come back together

8:30

. So definitely in that

8:32

pre phase the type

8:34

of argument is important and the type of

8:36

repair that we see .

8:38

For somebody who is not sure what repair

8:40

looks like . Is it simply a hug ? Is

8:42

it just showing that you're talking to each other

8:44

and you're not avoiding each other ? Is that what

8:47

you want them to see ?

8:49

Yes , although I'd like it to go even further

8:51

than that if possible . You know something

8:53

as explicit . As you know

8:55

, I'm glad that we took a break from the conversation

8:57

last night because when we came back to it

9:00

we were able to handle it much more calmly

9:02

or I really appreciated that you

9:04

heard my side , even though

9:07

it didn't seem to make sense to you at the time

9:09

. So , really being explicit about

9:11

how we kind of got through

9:14

it and how we kind of worked

9:16

through or problem solved that argument

9:18

or disagreement .

9:19

Got it and I love how it's just showing that you've

9:21

taken perhaps that person's perspective , or you've

9:23

thought about it or you've validated the emotion

9:25

that person had in that argument , and you're

9:27

doing that in front of the child . I love

9:29

that aspect and it's really important .

9:31

Yeah , it's not about like congrats

9:33

on winning that argument last night it's really

9:36

about like how did we get through that

9:38

right ? How did we come to some sort of

9:40

reconnection with each other and

9:42

just showing that to your children ?

9:45

What if a child is questioning

9:47

the frequency of an argument

9:49

? What

9:53

if they're worrying about that ? And perhaps they have friends who have divorced parents , or perhaps

9:55

they're just not used to seeing that . It's possible that

9:57

you never argued and all of a sudden things aren't going

9:59

well . If they do ask you

10:02

are you getting a divorce ? Or

10:04

if they do say , is everything okay ? Where's

10:06

the line between how honest you can be in that

10:08

moment and also not

10:11

hiding things from them ?

10:12

Yes , my approach with every

10:15

topic and I'm sure we've talked about this before too

10:17

is always deliver the

10:19

truth in the developmentally appropriate

10:21

kernel of information . So

10:24

I wouldn't go so far as saying

10:26

, yes , you know , our marriage is unstable

10:28

. We don't know where we're heading . But

10:30

first start with curiosity

10:34

. Like it sounds like you're noticing

10:36

that we're arguing quite a bit . Tell

10:38

me more about what you've noticed or how you've

10:40

been feeling Like . Really try

10:42

to just use that as an opportunity to

10:44

hear from your child . And if

10:46

they do say something like that , I would absolutely

10:49

say I am so glad that you're able

10:51

to tell me this . Right , and that

10:53

can be a hard thing to say because I

10:55

know for many parents , when they've

10:57

had this discussion come up , their

11:00

immediate reaction is guilt because

11:02

they might

11:05

have thought they were doing a better job of hiding it

11:07

or that their child wasn't noticing . But

11:09

rather than getting stuck

11:12

in that guilt , just really trying to

11:14

embrace the open communication

11:16

that your child is showing . And

11:18

just , you know , again , take that

11:20

as an opportunity to dive into how they're feeling about

11:22

it . Again

11:25

, take that as an opportunity to dive into how they're feeling about it . But I might say something

11:27

along the lines of yes , you're noticing that we have been struggling a little bit more lately

11:29

and that we've been arguing a bit more . And

11:31

then I would add you know this

11:33

is something that we're working on right . We

11:36

are working on it together . We're trying to figure

11:38

it out . We're trying to figure out why we've been

11:40

arguing so much . We're trying to find better solutions

11:43

. Maybe

11:49

, if you're getting help or support from outside , you could be open about that . We're

11:51

actually going to meet with somebody . Try to help us figure out why we're arguing so

11:53

much . So that's the sort of direct , honest response that

11:55

I would give that really focuses on

11:57

centering their feelings , the openness that

11:59

you want from them and what you're

12:01

doing about it as a couple .

12:03

I love that you began with asking them what they've

12:05

noticed , because we might think they've noticed

12:08

a certain aspect of it , but to them

12:10

and from their point of view , they might have noticed

12:12

something different . So you're going to start off by having

12:14

a different conversation if you just if you don't ask

12:16

them what they've been , you know , noticing around

12:18

the home .

12:19

Exactly Right , exactly , yeah

12:21

. We get , we make assumptions sometimes and

12:23

we could be really off base , so we just want

12:25

to go with what they're bringing to the conversation

12:27

.

12:28

And it's also an important reminder , with what you just

12:30

said , that we think sometimes that we're

12:32

hiding things really well . I've spoken about this in

12:34

terms of our emotions , right , and how kids

12:36

will pick up on the subtleties and we're

12:38

like how did , how did you , how did you notice this ? How

12:40

did you know ? I was mad , you know , I had a smile

12:42

on my face and everything's fine , but they notice

12:45

a difference in her tone and how we're responding to

12:47

them . So we do have to be honest with that

12:49

. I don't think the goal is to pretend

12:51

that everything is okay when things are not

12:53

Exactly . That's it .

12:56

But you always want to anchor that in something

12:58

that's being done about it so that your

13:01

child's security feels stable

13:03

, right . So you just have

13:05

to come back to whether it's

13:07

seeking help or whether it's that we're discussing

13:09

this together to try to figure it out . There

13:11

needs to be some anchor in what you're doing to

13:14

try to help it .

13:15

What comes to mind when I'm thinking of this parent

13:18

that's struggling with their divorce , or both parents struggling

13:20

with their divorce , is that sometimes the capacity

13:22

to support our child with their emotions

13:24

and their needs is much lower

13:26

because we're going through so much and even

13:29

just having one argument . When it happens here in

13:31

my home , it's heavy , it's hard because it's

13:33

something that you would want

13:35

to deal with alone . But now you're

13:38

shifting between like I'm really mad at you

13:40

to okay , let's , let's be a team now

13:42

and get this over with , and , like you know , get , not get . Not

13:44

get this over with , but

13:46

get through this day together so we can have the discussion later . But

13:48

you haven't finished that discussion . So just

13:50

an argument itself is hard . I

13:53

can't imagine being in a situation

13:55

when it's happening very often

13:57

and becoming more intense . What

14:00

advice can you have for that parent who just feels

14:02

that they're not connecting

14:04

with their child anymore , they're not present

14:06

and they're struggling because of these situations

14:08

in their home ? What can they do to sort

14:10

of nurture themselves , I guess , or support themselves

14:13

?

14:13

through this . So , first of all , having some

14:15

self-compassion , because we

14:17

can't be expected to show up in

14:20

the ways that we typically would with our

14:22

children , with ourselves , in our

14:24

work environments , with our friends , when we're

14:26

going through something so significant as some

14:29

escalated conflict or some

14:31

marital disruption or some

14:33

disruption in your partnership . So having

14:36

some self-compassion and recognizing

14:38

that is important . And if it really

14:40

is an ongoing thing , then I

14:43

would also look at are there other ways that you

14:45

can kind of supplement your child's support

14:47

during that time ? Like maybe they spend a

14:49

little bit of extra time with grandma

14:52

, if grandma's around , or with

14:54

an extended family member , or leaning

14:56

on some friends to have

14:58

them . You know , have your children over for dinner a

15:00

little bit more often or something

15:03

. So that's one element of it over for dinner a little bit

15:05

more often , or something . So that's one element of it . The other element that

15:07

I am thinking about is that rituals

15:09

themselves can be so comforting , and

15:11

I always advocate for having

15:13

rituals with your children and

15:16

I think even for me , if I'm having a hard

15:18

day by the time we get

15:20

to certain rituals in our day , there's

15:22

something that is so comforting for those

15:25

rituals , even for me , even though they were , in theory , designed

15:27

for my children . So , allowing

15:29

yourself that moment to just rest in

15:31

that ritual , whether it's a goodnight

15:34

ritual , whether it's something that you say or

15:36

something you do together , you know just being

15:38

able to , like I said , rest in that

15:40

ritual so that you can take

15:42

a moment for yourself too .

15:45

I think that's a really first , the self-compassion

15:47

piece and the ritual . It's just kind

15:50

of disconnecting to connect in that moment

15:52

, Right , and it just feels good to be able to do that for

15:54

a tiny little bit . Now I'm also

15:56

. I want to think

15:58

of the parent that is going through this

16:01

very difficult moment and having lots of conflicts

16:03

and wondering is

16:05

it worth staying in this for my children

16:07

, or do I

16:09

leave this person that I perhaps have

16:11

distanced myself from or feel that it's not

16:14

that relationship that I wanted anymore ? But

16:16

now that parent hesitates about the impact

16:18

on their child if they do get divorced , what

16:21

would you offer in terms of advice for that parent

16:23

who's questioning but just wanting

16:26

to stay for the family ?

16:27

Yeah , I find

16:29

so many parents in that situation

16:32

and it's not an easy situation because

16:34

there are so many factors to weigh right

16:36

and obviously parents

16:39

are trying to put their children's needs ahead

16:41

of everything else . But there

16:43

is a lot to consider , and it's not just

16:45

the level of conflict

16:48

, but also what does modeling a healthy relationship

16:50

look like ? And even if you

16:52

navigate a relationship conflict-free

16:55

per se but

16:58

it's lacking , what

17:00

a loving relationship should look

17:02

like , that also has an impact on your

17:04

child . So there's a lot of things to consider

17:07

. I would recommend

17:09

somebody consult with somebody

17:11

to really think through what are the considerations

17:14

, what is , you know , one's

17:16

anxiety versus what we know about you

17:19

know can actually help or hinder

17:22

a situation . But taking

17:24

time to kind of think that through and

17:26

recognize that that

17:29

might be something that is worth exploring

17:31

, either with a therapist or in

17:33

couples therapy , because

17:35

many partnerships and

17:37

relationships , I mean , they all go through ups

17:39

and downs and they all go through challenging

17:42

periods , some more intense than others . And

17:45

is this a challenging period or is this something

17:47

that you know is bigger

17:50

, that needs to be fixed

17:53

or ended ? But

17:55

also , looking at in the process , is

17:57

there anything that you can do for yourself as

17:59

an individual . That might be bringing

18:02

your mental health back to a place that's

18:04

a bit more stable . So , making

18:06

sure that we kind of look at it from

18:08

all angles , look at it with support

18:10

and recognize that there's

18:12

no one right answer for any family

18:15

right . It isn't always better for

18:17

children to have parents who

18:19

remain in a relationship if

18:21

it's not a healthy relationship in

18:25

a relationship if it's not a healthy relationship . But it's not always better for

18:27

a child to be in a co-parenting relationship , if you

18:30

know , depending on the circumstances . So there's

18:32

no one right answer . But I would

18:34

just recommend , as I said , really

18:37

reflecting on what you can do to impact

18:39

your own mental health , what you

18:41

can do to explore options

18:44

in terms of your relationship and even

18:46

if you're with a partner who isn't willing to

18:48

consider couples therapy , it

18:51

can be very helpful to see somebody on your own

18:53

to try to help you figure out what

18:55

makes sense as a next step for you

18:57

as a parent and for your children .

19:00

I think that last piece is really interesting

19:02

because some parents feel that they have to go

19:05

to therapy together and , yes , there's

19:07

often a partner that doesn't want to go to therapy

19:09

. One email that has been coming

19:11

in lately is a mother or mothers

19:13

who want to leave their partner

19:15

, but are worried about one not

19:18

seeing their kids . It

19:20

breaks their heart not to see them for a

19:22

long , you know an extended period of time , but

19:24

also struggling with finances and wondering how

19:26

will I be able to support my family alone

19:29

and can I do it ? So I need to stay

19:31

in the relationship in order to do that , but

19:33

maybe starting with the therapy for

19:35

yourself and figuring out like how you

19:37

could first stabilize yourself and work

19:39

on yourself to go through this , if you

19:41

do go through this .

19:43

That's right . That's exactly that , you know . The

19:45

considerations are generally

19:47

not just about children . There's

19:49

huge financial elements of it . There

19:52

are a lot of logistics in terms of

19:54

if a parent has been a stay

19:56

at home parent , a full time parent at home

19:58

, you know what does that mean for them

20:00

. If they have to enter the job market and , depending

20:02

on their age , what will that look like ? You

20:05

know , what will it look like for their living situation

20:07

, and there are so many factors

20:10

that it is overwhelming for a lot

20:12

of parents , understandably so

20:14

, and importantly , one needs

20:16

to be intentional and take their time to try to figure

20:19

that out . But if they can

20:21

figure out what parts are under their

20:23

control that they can do to put themselves

20:25

in the best position , then they might

20:27

be able to see if that

20:29

changes their relationship at all . Right , that

20:31

in and of itself might have an impact on their relationship

20:34

. Having more of a sense of agency

20:36

in your own relationship and feeling

20:38

like you have more control over your own life may

20:40

impact your relationship in ways that could be beneficial

20:43

, or it may allow

20:45

somebody the logistical

20:49

and emotional

20:52

structure to make a decision that

20:54

they might need to make .

20:56

I want to move into that parent now who decides

20:59

to make that move and to go through a

21:01

divorce . But first I just want to acknowledge

21:03

that sometimes there aren't many arguments

21:05

and I only know this because I have people

21:07

that reached out and said I'm

21:09

not in a bad situation , I just have

21:12

fallen out of love with this person and

21:14

don't want to be in this

21:16

relationship anymore . But now it makes

21:18

me feel even more guilty because nothing

21:20

bad has been happening in the home , nothing serious

21:23

, none of these big arguments but

21:25

I don't want to be in this relationship anymore . So I

21:27

just want to acknowledge that parent again , because

21:30

I have received messages that

21:32

parents are just saying I don't

21:34

want to be in this relationship anymore and that makes it even

21:36

harder on the parent .

21:37

Yeah , definitely , and I

21:40

would say it's

21:42

not a new phenomenon , but it's culturally

21:44

. I think for many families it feels somewhat

21:48

new territory because I think it's not

21:50

talked about a lot right . We

21:52

think about divorce making

21:54

a lot of sense , especially if there's any sort

21:56

of abuse within a home or

21:59

high conflict and

22:01

I think people get a lot of support for

22:03

making that decision . But when

22:05

it comes to a situation like you're describing

22:08

, it can feel even more challenging

22:10

because there might feel like there's some

22:12

stigma around divorce

22:14

under those types of circumstances

22:16

or some judgment that might occur . But

22:18

, as I said before , there are

22:21

a lot of things to think about when it comes

22:23

to your relationship , including are you modeling

22:25

what a healthy relationship should look like ? And

22:27

so even the lack of conflict is

22:29

not what makes a healthy relationship right

22:32

. Even the lack of conflict is not what makes

22:34

a healthy relationship right . Having a strong partnership , having , you know , emotional connection

22:36

and intimacy and trust and that

22:39

doesn't mean that we have to expect our partners

22:41

to serve every function that

22:43

we need in a relationship . But there

22:45

are important elements of a partnership

22:48

that go beyond conflict or lack

22:50

of conflict , that go

22:52

beyond conflict or lack of conflict

22:54

. So

22:58

in those cases again , it's obviously a very , very personal decision about whether that's

23:00

something that one feels the need to end a relationship for

23:02

or not . But just

23:04

knowing that ultimately

23:06

, I think every parent is trying to do

23:09

what is best for their family under the circumstances

23:11

, and their own mental health is a part

23:13

of that equation , right , and so

23:15

if they are unhappy for

23:18

whatever reason that

23:20

needs to be looked at and if

23:23

they seek out their own supports and

23:25

try to find their own answers

23:27

to their own mental well-being and

23:29

they're still concerned that that isn't

23:31

possible within a relationship , then

23:34

divorce might be an option

23:36

for them . So you're absolutely

23:38

right to bring up the fact that there's all kinds of reasons

23:40

why parents or

23:42

partners separate or divorce

23:44

and it's not all conflict and

23:47

you mentioned that stigma piece .

23:48

I'm thinking about this particular email where the

23:50

person was afraid of their

23:53

family , given the culture that they had , that didn't

23:55

believe in divorce and you need to stick with it

23:57

and be with your partner they were

23:59

struggling with . How am I going to tell my

24:01

family about this if

24:04

there isn't even a bad reason for

24:06

it ? There's no good reason in their mind , and

24:08

I know I'm saying bad and good . I don't like using those words

24:10

, but those are the words that parents use no-transcript

24:46

.

24:47

When a divorce happens , it takes

24:49

, you know , on average the research

24:51

suggests two to four years for

24:53

a newly constructed

24:56

family to find some settled

24:58

safe ground and

25:05

that's true for extended

25:07

family also of reactivity from family

25:09

members or that feeling

25:12

of being lost in the

25:15

aftermath of a divorce

25:17

or separation . When

25:20

we move forward we can get to

25:22

a place for many families where

25:24

that new normal settles

25:27

down . And it takes time

25:29

but that new normal is possible . But

25:31

that it's a steep learning curve . When

25:33

we're entering in that phase

25:35

of a relationship and everything

25:37

is destabilized , you know

25:40

our own sense of what our family

25:42

is and what our family means and you

25:44

know , even if you're the one initiating

25:47

a divorce or separation , there's

25:49

still often a grieving period of

25:51

what you expected your relationship to

25:54

be like and how long you expected

25:57

it to go . So just knowing

25:59

that , yes , it can be tremendously difficult

26:01

and there may be some backlash from

26:03

family or friends , and I

26:05

encourage you to find people in your life who support

26:08

you and have your back no matter what , but

26:11

just also know that there

26:13

is generally a period of instability

26:15

that can last a while , but

26:17

that families then settle into

26:19

and find that new normal .

26:21

Let's focus on that word now , I think the instability

26:23

piece , because that's what's going to happen once the

26:25

divorce begins . And that's my memory as well

26:28

, where things just changed

26:30

from one day to the next . So it felt where one

26:32

parent is leaving , you're in the home . All

26:34

of a sudden , you're taking turns visiting one parent

26:36

and the other . They're speaking badly about

26:39

each other . Every single time you're with the other one

26:41

, they're trying to get you to take sides

26:43

and you're . They're always mad and it almost feels

26:45

like you're there to support their emotions

26:48

. That was my personal experience . Yeah

26:50

, um , that's very hard for a child when you're

26:52

young , because you don't have the emotional

26:54

capacity to deal with this . And

26:56

some parents will see changes

26:59

in behavior , as I experienced as well

27:01

where you're seeking connection with Because , knowing

27:03

that they're going through a very difficult moment as well

27:05

and trying to divide assets and

27:08

everything and

27:19

the kids and when , who's going to have who and what

27:21

but then you have that child

27:23

who feels sometimes lonely and

27:26

out of place when they're in different

27:28

homes . How do you navigate

27:30

this very difficult time ?

27:32

Yeah , and you know I

27:35

can relate to your experience

27:37

and you know I'm sad for all

27:39

of us who know that experience and

27:41

felt that instability

27:43

and you know , certainly that was a

27:45

lot of my memory of it too is who's picking

27:48

me up from soccer practice and why are they arguing about

27:50

who's picking me up from soccer practice ? And you

27:52

know all of these things that feel like they're about

27:54

you when in reality it's not

27:57

. But as a child that's how it feels

27:59

right and that's such a

28:02

hard feeling to hold because it's

28:04

not our responsibility to hold

28:06

those feelings and those feelings don't belong to

28:08

us . And yet here we are , holding

28:10

everybody's anger and everybody's resentment

28:12

and everyone's bitterness and so on . So

28:14

it's very , very difficult . You

28:17

know , in an ideal world parents

28:19

are able to say this is

28:21

the end of our , you know , romantic

28:23

relationship , but this is just

28:26

a continuation of our co-parenting

28:28

, and that everything is

28:30

in service of

28:32

stability for a child . And when

28:35

parents are able to come together

28:38

and say listen , you know I may be

28:40

mad at them for this thing or they

28:42

may hate me for this thing , but

28:44

ultimately we will be parenting

28:46

together for the rest of our lives

28:48

. So we need to figure out how to

28:50

separate out our feelings about

28:52

each other in our romantic relationship from

28:55

how we can parent together . And

28:58

it is a very difficult thing to do , and

29:00

it's certainly a very difficult thing to do right

29:02

away , which is ideally when our kids

29:04

need it right . That's so

29:07

hard , it's so hard and many

29:09

parents get there and get there a little

29:11

bit later , but they need

29:13

it in that early phase and so

29:15

, even if you don't feel it yet

29:17

, fake it till you make it right

29:19

. You know , be very mindful

29:22

of not commenting on

29:24

the other parent at all

29:26

in any way . Really try

29:28

to show some stability in terms of being

29:30

able to have consistent

29:33

you know contact

29:35

with each parent . You know that's one

29:38

of the things we know that impacts a child tremendously

29:40

is when there is a longer absence

29:43

away from one of the parents . So , keeping

29:45

that in mind , that access to both

29:47

parents is critical and

29:50

during that time being

29:52

open , yes , of course , if you want to call

29:54

your other parent while you're in this home , of course

29:56

go call them . So

29:58

just trying as much as possible

30:00

to separate out your feelings from

30:03

your ability to put

30:05

your child's needs first , and

30:08

many parents are getting creative in terms of

30:10

how to navigate that transition period

30:13

. So some families are doing

30:15

what is called nesting , which is

30:17

where the children

30:19

stay in their home . This tends

30:22

to be a temporary solution but

30:25

at least in that beginning phase

30:27

the children tend to stay in their home and

30:30

the parents alternate coming

30:32

in and out , so there's some stability

30:34

there and there's something that can be

30:36

said for that . Now , of course , that's

30:38

not logistically possible for a lot of families

30:40

. Sometimes they make it work by staying

30:42

with parents or extended

30:45

family members or a friend and

30:48

ultimately it's generally not a long-term

30:50

solution for most families . Ultimately

30:52

it's generally not a long-term solution for most families , but it can be helpful in that

30:54

early phase when parents are really struggling

30:56

with managing their own emotions

30:58

but can at least prioritize stability

31:01

for their children in that way . But

31:03

if doing so is

31:05

going to create more conflict

31:08

because there's more interaction that's needed

31:10

in terms of communication and communication

31:12

isn't safe then

31:18

that wouldn't be the route to go . But families are getting a bit more creative

31:20

in how they can find stability during that transition period . But I would definitely

31:22

try to , you know , double

31:25

down on any areas of your children's lives

31:27

that can root them in stability

31:29

. So whether it's , you know , certain

31:32

nights of the week that are with one

31:34

parent , and you're always having family dinner

31:37

at that night , or visiting grandparents

31:39

on a Sunday , or talking

31:41

to their teachers and making sure that they have

31:43

a little bit of extra time

31:45

with their teachers or something like that . So

31:48

, again , not everybody has the benefit of extended

31:50

family around them , but whatever we

31:52

can do to just add an

31:54

element of stability as

31:56

much as possible is key

31:59

, because those are the memories that

32:01

many of us have . Right , where am

32:03

I today ? Or who's shuffling me

32:05

where , and all

32:07

the arguing that goes with that .

32:10

Are there any differences between ages and children

32:12

? That goes with that . Are there any differences

32:14

between ages and children ? So if a parent is going through this and their

32:16

child is two versus a parent whose child is 12 , are we to expect

32:19

behavioral changes or emotional

32:21

bigger emotions around that moment

32:24

, or are the younger kids sort of protected

32:26

from this ?

32:28

That's a great question and I would say

32:30

the research is showing

32:33

a little bit of differences across developmental

32:35

stages . There are some unique

32:38

considerations , especially for early

32:40

childhood , because when

32:42

we take an infant

32:45

, let's say who might be

32:47

nursing

32:49

. Still , you know they might be breastfeeding or they might

32:51

be co-sleeping , or they might be home with one parent . You know they might

32:53

be breastfeeding or they might be co sleeping , or they might

32:55

be home with one parent . You know during

32:57

the day , every day , while another parent works . You

33:01

know that's a very different consideration

33:03

than a child who's nine

33:05

or 10 . It doesn't mean better or worse , it

33:07

just means a very different consideration , especially

33:10

because younger children just

33:12

can't go as long without seeing

33:14

their primary attachment figures right

33:17

, so we can't have . You

33:19

know , a common scenario for some

33:21

older children might be one week , one week . We

33:23

can't have a young child spending

33:25

a week away from their primary attachment figure

33:28

. You know , ideally not from either of their

33:30

attachment figures . So there

33:32

are some unique considerations in that respect

33:34

. It doesn't mean that the outcomes

33:37

are necessarily different depending on

33:39

whether or not we are tuned into what

33:41

they need at that developmental stage . So it's

33:43

not better or worse as long as we're tuning into

33:45

the different needs of that stage . But

33:49

we do know that late

33:52

adolescents tend to be impacted

33:54

a little bit differently than , say , early adolescents

33:57

or younger children . And

33:59

it's not necessarily that divorce

34:01

is less impactful . It may just be that

34:03

by then they have more coping mechanisms

34:05

or more support systems in place

34:07

. So it does impact people differently

34:10

at different stages . So it does impact people differently at different stages

34:12

.

34:12

I was going to follow up by asking if a

34:14

parent should wait then . But given what you said

34:16

at the beginning , if that conflict is still very

34:18

intense and it's not a healthy relationship

34:20

, then we actually don't want to keep that child

34:22

in that type of relationship until they're teenagers

34:25

.

34:37

That's right , because we also know the impact of chronic stress on a brain . So we know that exposure

34:39

to chronic arguing or chronic stress or tension has impacts on brain development . You

34:41

know , like very real impacts in terms of

34:43

parts of our brain that are responsible for emotion

34:45

regulation , for memory , for attention

34:48

, can all be impacted by exposure

34:50

to chronic stress . So that is

34:52

definitely something that needs to be remembered

34:54

, as opposed to thinking well , if I can just stick it out

34:56

until they are starting school

34:59

, then that will be better . Not necessarily

35:01

. So . A

35:03

lot of things at stake and a lot

35:05

of factors to weigh .

35:08

There was a father that reached out to me and said how

35:13

do I support my child during this divorce

35:15

, knowing that he had heard from friends of

35:17

his Sometimes kids take

35:19

sides . And I thought that was a really interesting

35:21

question and I didn't have an answer and I said I'll get

35:23

back to you with a podcast , and that's when

35:25

I had to reach out to you . But I was really curious about

35:27

that . Do kids often

35:29

take sides ? I know that it happened in my

35:31

personal experience , but it's because we went towards

35:33

the nurturing parent that we

35:36

were closer with and then , in my situation

35:38

, my father actually left and wasn't

35:41

part of our lives anymore . So we

35:44

took sides , obviously . But when

35:46

parents are both involved , is that typical

35:48

to see a child take sides ? Typical to see

35:50

?

35:50

a child take sides ? You know it's a really

35:52

great question actually and you

35:59

know I can answer it both from professional and personal experience . You know one thing

36:01

I'll say is that you know , even in my home , where there was some you

36:04

know violence within my home , Mm-hmm

36:06

. Even though

36:08

from an outsider one might think like

36:10

, okay , this is a good thing , right

36:12

, Because you know of side with them because the

36:14

other partner was abusive or violent

36:17

or a problem in some way

36:19

. But

36:42

we need to remember that children love

36:44

their parents , even often

36:47

in very difficult and abusive

36:49

situations , very difficult and abusive situations , and so we need

36:51

to acknowledge that . You know , yeah , maybe

36:58

you still do love your dad or your mom , or you know , of course you do because they're

37:00

your dad or your mom . So , being very careful not to disparage the feelings of

37:02

your children , even though you

37:04

might think like , how could you love this person ? You

37:06

know they're terrible to us or whatever

37:09

. So sometimes there's

37:11

that kind of extreme that

37:13

needs to be understood

37:16

. But also , I think , when

37:19

parents are very careful to

37:21

remember that divorce

37:24

is generally not a

37:26

one-sided situation , right

37:28

, there may have been one

37:30

major precipitating factor

37:33

, Right ? So maybe if there was an affair

37:35

, or maybe there was , you

37:37

know something that that

37:39

led to the family

37:41

choosing to end the relationship

37:44

, that

37:54

contributed to the state of the relationship in general . And so often I try to coach

37:56

parents to say , like , when you're talking to your children about why

37:58

we're getting divorced , you know

38:00

many parents will say like . Well , I want to say

38:03

like , because he cheated on me and so we're

38:05

ending right , which feels fair . As

38:07

the person who maybe experienced that , that feels fair . As the

38:09

person who maybe experienced that . That feels fair

38:11

. But that's unfair

38:13

to your children . Right to put

38:15

something like that on them because your

38:18

marital relationship has nothing to do with them , and

38:28

so you need to be able to find again that kernel of truth , which is you

38:30

know , we're struggling in our relationship and we think that we'll

38:32

get along better as co-parents than as a married partnership

38:35

or whatever , and that's

38:38

generally the true kernel for most families

38:40

, right ? That's generally what it comes down

38:42

to , and the reasons why

38:45

are varied .

38:46

Just , to add to that . Yes , however , there might

38:48

be a parent that doesn't want this divorce right , and then

38:51

that would be . They would feel like that's

38:53

a lie , saying that we both want this .

38:55

Yes , but we don't have to say we both want this

38:57

right . But we

38:59

can say something like you

39:02

know , the relationship isn't working

39:04

or you know which , if

39:06

one parent wants it and one doesn't , the relationship isn't

39:08

working right . So there's

39:12

still the kernel of truth . So , because

39:14

that is true , there are times when you

39:16

know , one person ends a relationship and

39:18

the other one is blindsided by that

39:20

or really doesn't want that . And

39:22

by no means , just to be very clear

39:24

am I saying that if one partner is

39:28

unfaithful , that it's because of problems

39:30

in their marriage that the other partner was responsible

39:32

for . By no means . Am I saying that . I'm

39:35

only saying that there's never just

39:37

one thing , or there's rarely

39:39

just one thing , that makes a relationship

39:42

end . And

39:44

so when we can at least remember that , when

39:46

we're sharing this information with our children , that we

39:48

need to protect their relationship with their

39:50

parent as a separate thing

39:53

from our relationship as a couple

39:55

, so being able to come

39:57

back to you know , I

40:00

know this is hard and our

40:02

family will look different and it will take

40:04

us all some time to adjust . And you

40:06

can acknowledge even yes , this is even hard for me

40:08

. You know , this isn't what I expected either and

40:11

it will be hard for me to think about our

40:13

new family in a different way , but

40:15

here's what we're going to do about it . So

40:18

again , we're kind of anchoring in , like

40:20

but here's some of the things we're going to put in

40:22

place so we can

40:24

acknowledge those difficult feelings , we can acknowledge

40:27

that this is hard or unexpected

40:29

, and even that it's hard for us , but

40:32

we're going to anchor it in what are

40:34

we doing about it ? You know , other

40:36

parent and I are coming up with

40:39

a plan to make sure that we can

40:41

figure out what's best for , for

40:43

for you , as we go through this .

40:45

Right . Thank you for for that and and and

40:48

I'm sorry for what you had to experience as well

40:50

During your childhood . I I

40:52

get those difficult moments and it's

40:54

not easy to kind of revisit

40:56

that sometimes . You know Sometimes

41:00

that co-parenting life

41:02

isn't what a parent expected and

41:04

I am assuming maybe I

41:07

don't know how similar yours is from mine , but , like

41:09

I said , my father did not co-parent , he

41:11

just moved to a different city and just didn't

41:14

call anymore . So I think

41:16

for my mom she became a single

41:18

mom overnight , without

41:20

support , without somebody to take a

41:22

break , and I saw how hard that was on her . What

41:26

if that parent ends up in that journey ? Because

41:28

I know that you mentioned the importance of both parents

41:31

and I've read those studies as well where they

41:33

talk about how important it is for both parents

41:35

to be present and consistent

41:37

in the child's life . But that's not the reality

41:39

for everybody . What happens in that

41:41

situation where a parent is alone and

41:44

the other parent just disappears or

41:46

isn't giving that attention to that child

41:48

that they were hoping ?

41:50

Yeah , you know and and

41:52

mine is very similar my father also left

41:54

, and you know it's it

41:56

is . You know these situations happen

41:58

and they're sad and they're hard , and

42:00

you know , over time , hopefully

42:03

, people like you and I make sense of their

42:05

experiences over time and sometimes with support

42:07

or sometimes just on their own , we learn how

42:09

to make sense of it and , you know

42:12

, understand our own reactions to it and

42:14

how that can serve us going forward

42:16

. But it is the reality

42:18

for many that one parent ends

42:20

up as a single parent or

42:23

, even if it's not as extreme

42:25

as you and I experienced , it

42:27

might be that the other parent just gradually

42:29

withdraws and they're not as

42:31

present over time . That's also

42:34

fairly common , and so

42:36

the thing to remember is that , even

42:38

though we might talk about what's optimal

42:40

in terms of maintaining contact

42:42

with both parents through a separation , there

42:45

are many kids in life who are

42:47

going through suboptimal circumstances

42:50

, who can still thrive , and so

42:52

, whether it's divorce or whether it's

42:54

parental illness or trauma

42:57

or experience that

43:00

they've had that's impacting them greatly , there's

43:03

still opportunity to

43:05

have post-traumatic growth right

43:08

, that we can go through really

43:10

difficult periods and still grow

43:12

from them and still thrive , and so if

43:15

a parent finds themselves in that situation

43:17

. It is by no means

43:19

a negative

43:22

outlook for your

43:24

child . There are lots of ways to still support

43:26

them . We know that a child

43:28

really just needs one strong

43:31

attachment figure in their life and

43:33

that will buffer them from a lot . So

43:35

if you and

43:38

you don't have to feel like , okay , now I

43:40

have to be both parents to my

43:42

child , they just need you

43:44

right . They just need you to keep

43:46

showing up . You know , in the way that

43:48

you do , you don't have to be above and beyond to compensate for the lack of another

43:50

parent . You just need to be above and beyond to compensate for the lack

43:52

of another parent . You just need to be

43:54

you and show up and just maintain that

43:56

connection with your child , and that will

43:58

buffer them from so much .

44:01

Thank you for saying that Again . I just think that's

44:04

going to validate a lot of parents and their

44:06

worries or their feelings around this and

44:08

help them feel seen , because I do

44:10

get those emails from parents saying , well , that other

44:12

parent has taken off and I'm alone

44:14

. And now , according to the research you

44:17

share on Curious Neuron , they need both parents

44:19

. So are you telling me now that my child is damaged

44:21

, but you are speaking to the resilience

44:23

part and that one strong connection

44:26

and the impact that it does have

44:28

on them ?

44:29

Exactly , yes , it's . You know

44:31

research is important and you

44:33

know we need to understand brain development

44:36

and the various impacts of things that

44:38

can occur in a child's life . But

44:40

we also know so much about what

44:42

protects kids , even through

44:44

, you know , difficult or traumatic events

44:46

. And so when we leverage those right

44:48

, like I think about , like pulling all those levers

44:50

, like can we pull the lever of

44:52

, you know , connection , can we pull the

44:54

lever of community support , of

44:57

you know , strong friendships , of ritual

44:59

, of you know all these things

45:01

that we know can help kids of sense

45:04

making right , like we can make sense of an

45:06

experience with our child . So

45:09

when we can pull all those levers of support

45:11

and resilience , we get growth through

45:13

that .

45:14

At what point does a parent make

45:17

the decision to kind of get support for

45:19

their child ? So maybe they're noticing behavioral

45:21

issues . But what are some

45:24

of the signs , I guess , for that parent to

45:26

say , okay , my child is struggling

45:28

and I think that I need to bring them to

45:30

see a psychologist or a therapist to help

45:32

them through this transition ?

45:34

It's a great question , but I'm going to back it

45:37

up a little bit because I get asked that question a

45:39

lot and I constantly

45:41

get emails from parents saying you know

45:43

, we're starting

45:45

the process of a separation and we need

45:47

to find a psychologist for our child or

45:49

for our children . And I

45:51

would back that up even more because

45:54

not every child , of course , is

45:56

going to need the support of a professional to

45:59

navigate a separation or divorce . What

46:02

is beneficial for almost all parents

46:05

who are navigating separation or divorce is talking

46:07

to somebody about how to mitigate the effects

46:09

on your child . So , prior

46:12

to telling your children that

46:15

you're going to separate , prior to making

46:17

these decisions , if you can come

46:19

together ideally and

46:22

say this is what we're embarking on

46:24

, how do we do this as well as possible

46:26

? How do we do this as intentionally and

46:28

mindfully as possible ? And

46:30

I can guarantee you that the parents who do

46:32

that are going to be in a much

46:35

better position to co-parent successfully

46:38

and help their child navigate that , because they're

46:40

already leading with

46:42

intention in terms of going

46:44

through this together and co-parenting as

46:47

a partnership . So I would encourage

46:49

parents to seek out that consultation

46:52

, and it doesn't mean going to see a psychologist weekly

46:54

, it could just be one consultation

46:56

, you know , just

46:58

to really think through , like what do we know about

47:01

how to tell this news

47:03

to children ? When should we do it

47:05

? What time of day School day , not

47:07

school day ? All of these logistics

47:09

, when do we do it ? Do we do it right before one

47:11

partner moves out or not ? There's

47:13

so many logistical factors that

47:16

parents don't have to navigate alone . You

47:18

know there are a lot of different ways to get some

47:20

support through those questions

47:22

. So that is the better

47:24

place to start . But let's say that

47:27

you've done those things , or maybe you haven't done those things

47:29

, but either way , you're now navigating

47:31

some challenges , emotionally

47:33

or behaviorally , with your children . First , know

47:35

that we expect some changes to

47:37

occur . So the fact that they might

47:39

be showing some behavioral or

47:41

emotional differences does not mean

47:43

that it's a problem per se

47:45

. Right ? We know that kids go

47:47

through adjustment periods , just as

47:49

we do . So you might see some

47:52

nightmares . You might see more

47:54

trouble falling asleep . A lot of kids

47:56

will regress to

47:58

needing to have someone fall asleep with them

48:00

again , instead of sleeping on their own . We

48:02

might see changes in their mood . They might

48:04

be more irritable or more grumpy or

48:07

, you know , have trouble focusing at

48:09

school , not want

48:11

to do some of the things that they're normally interested

48:13

in , and all of that is a pretty typical

48:16

and common reaction , so long

48:18

as it's relatively temporary and

48:20

so long as they're still able to get

48:22

through their day to day . But , you

48:24

know , if a child is really not eating , not

48:26

sleeping or refusing to

48:28

engage in activities that they normally

48:31

enjoy , or if

48:33

this is lasting , you know , like

48:35

months and months , you know

48:37

, or six months later and they're still experiencing

48:39

emotions or behaviors to

48:41

the same extent as they were when it was first happening

48:44

, that might be a good time to

48:46

consult with somebody to see does

48:48

my child need some more direct support ?

48:51

That's such good advice about kind of planning

48:53

, being proactive about what you're doing and saying okay

48:55

, we know we're going to go through this and you're

48:57

right . I think parents don't know how to

48:59

say this to their child Like

49:02

what time of day ? And it reminds me of an interview

49:04

I had with a researcher that studied how to

49:06

talk to kids about death , and it was about like

49:08

the right timing and the not at the

49:10

end end of the day because they might go to bed and ruminate

49:12

. So I had never realized

49:14

that the same would apply when you're talking to

49:16

them about divorce . Yes , yes

49:18

, so interesting .

49:20

And you know these are obviously uncomfortable

49:22

conversations for parents too , and

49:24

you know , do you tell them together

49:27

, do you tell them separately ? There's

49:29

so many logistics and there isn't one

49:32

answer again for everyone . But it's

49:34

a lot to navigate and if

49:37

someone like a psychologist

49:39

or a therapist or a mediator or somebody

49:42

can facilitate those conversations

49:44

, it will just reduce the parent's stress

49:46

and allow them to be more emotionally present

49:48

when they do do those things with their children .

49:50

Right . One last question

49:52

. I want to be mindful of your time and I knew it'd be

49:54

hard for me to stop asking you questions

49:56

because it's so interesting , it's all important

49:59

, it really is , you know , and we've

50:01

literally covered everything that has come in , and I think

50:03

it'll be really important for parents to hear this because

50:06

there are lots of emails around

50:08

this . So I think the last question that

50:10

I'm curious about , and again because

50:12

of what I've heard from parents , is sometimes

50:15

a child doesn't want to go to

50:17

one parent's house . Sometimes that child

50:19

really didn't have a good

50:21

attachment with that person or a connection with that one parent

50:24

. Maybe there

50:26

was abuse or physical violence in the home and

50:28

that child just is afraid

50:30

of that parent . You know , one thing that really

50:33

surprised me was an email . It was from the

50:35

United States . I don't know if it's similar here , but if

50:38

there was an arrest because

50:40

of the one parent who was

50:43

violent with the

50:45

mother and that

50:47

didn't lead to any changes

50:49

in custody once the divorce happened , it was still split

50:52

in half and it was very

50:54

difficult for the mother to let her child

50:57

go there and the child was afraid

50:59

of that parent . But they still had to do this

51:02

. So I didn't know that it was like that

51:04

, but I'm just picturing all of

51:06

these situations where one child

51:08

doesn't want to go to the other parent's house . How does

51:10

a parent navigate that particular

51:13

situation when you kind of have

51:15

to force the child to go there ?

51:18

Yeah , you know it's so sad and

51:20

I would say that happens less here

51:22

, but it's not impossible , it

51:25

can happen . So , first of

51:27

all , in those extreme you know

51:29

cases , please consult

51:31

with a family lawyer and see what your

51:33

options are , because ultimately

51:35

your child's safety is is the most

51:38

important thing , and doing

51:40

something without knowing

51:42

your legal rights can actually

51:44

put your child in more danger of

51:47

you know there are parents

51:49

who've been accused of kidnapping their own children

51:51

because they've been trying to keep them away from another

51:53

partner , even if that partner is you know

51:55

. Oh wow , so it's

51:58

yeah , so it's complicated . So please consult

52:00

your family lawyer to see you know

52:02

, or legal aid , just to make sure that you

52:04

understand what your rights are and

52:07

you know expressing your concerns

52:09

. And you

52:11

know there may be times when

52:13

that's how it happens initially , but oftentimes

52:16

what happens is a parent will then see

52:19

an emotional or behavioral outcome

52:22

as a result of continued

52:24

exposure to that parent , and

52:26

so sometimes they're able to then take

52:28

that information and

52:30

maybe , along with a psychologist

52:32

who specializes in sort

52:35

of custody and parental

52:38

assessments , can then take

52:40

that and maybe rearrange possible

52:43

custody or have supervised

52:45

visitation , or they might mitigate

52:47

it by having them do daytime

52:50

visits only and not overnights , so

52:53

that we're sort of mitigating against some of the

52:55

stressors that can come

52:57

up right . So maybe a parent who

53:00

is only just going to take them for an afternoon

53:02

and go for ice cream and go hang

53:04

out there may be less opportunity

53:07

to be triggered

53:09

or stressed or violent because

53:12

they're not navigating the day-to-day of homework

53:14

or sleeping over or so on . So

53:16

it's important to navigate those things

53:18

first . But even in less extreme

53:20

cases there are children

53:22

who are like I don't want to go to so-and-so's

53:24

house , and sometimes it can be as simple

53:27

as maybe

53:29

the relationship isn't as strong or

53:31

maybe it is . You know , one

53:33

parent is a lot less strict than

53:35

the other parent and so they get to play

53:37

video games during the week at one parent

53:39

and not the others , right ? So

53:41

what I would say is you

53:43

know , this is where co-parenting is important

53:46

, where you can kind of come together and say like

53:48

listen , I don't want to keep you

53:50

know again , we're talking about these non-threatening situations

53:52

. Listen , I don't want to keep you know again , we're talking about these non threatening situations

53:54

, but I don't want to keep my child from spending time with you , but I also don't want

53:56

to feel like I am forcing them out the door

53:58

every time . So how can we

54:01

come up with , you know , some sort of strategies

54:03

that can help engage them and what ? What

54:06

would help them feel more connected

54:08

? Right , so we're going to go back to

54:10

what can we do to build and support

54:12

that relationship on

54:15

that , you know , with that other partner , and

54:17

ideally that's something that both partners should be invested

54:19

in , right ? We want our

54:22

children to have a strong relationship with that

54:24

other partner too , right , for so

54:26

many reasons . So if we can collaborate

54:28

and say like well , maybe if you , maybe if you try this

54:30

, or you know , I find they , it works well if we do this , or what ? If we can collaborate and say like , well , maybe if you , maybe if

54:32

you try this , or you know , I find they , it works well if we

54:34

do this . Or what if we made

54:37

an agreement about how we approach

54:39

homework or how we approach whatever ? Again

54:42

, these are all in ideal situations when people

54:44

are able to co-parent and communicate

54:46

with each other . But , of course , I

54:48

work with many families who can barely

54:50

email each other . You know

54:52

, and that's you know , if they're lucky

54:54

, they can email each other . So sometimes

54:57

these things aren't always possible and we're

54:59

in a situation of just validating , like

55:01

, I get how hard it is for you

55:03

. What we can do is encourage

55:05

our children just to share their feelings with the

55:07

other parent . Other

55:15

parent , um , just ask like have you , have you talked to mom or

55:17

dad about how you're feeling ? Um , and you know , encourage them in that way so

55:19

that we're not interfering in

55:21

a way that the other parent might perceive as

55:23

self-serving .

55:25

Yeah , I get that . So , and

55:27

you know , is there anything , I

55:29

guess , for the parent ? Let's say they don't want to leave

55:31

a certain parent and they're

55:33

struggling to distance themselves from you . So it might

55:36

not just be that they don't want to see the other parent , but

55:38

they don't want to leave one of their parents

55:40

because they are so close with them . Are there ways

55:42

that you could create

55:45

moments of connection ? I don't know , it would be like a drawing

55:47

or something that you can send your child off , something

55:49

that you made for them , a little heart that you cut out , a

55:52

way to connect with them even if they're not with you

55:54

, so they can feel that you're still with them .

55:56

Yes , so there's two things about this

55:58

that I think are important to mention . So one

56:00

here's where ritual can come in , and

56:03

it could be a ritual thing that we

56:05

say when we separate

56:07

from each other . It could be a ritual of giving

56:09

right . You

56:13

can put a kiss in their pocket or you know any kind of little

56:15

ritual like that that could be comforting

56:18

for a child . You might have

56:20

them take a photo of you

56:22

know , you and them together

56:24

and have that with them , you know

56:26

, in their other home . So

56:29

that's one piece of it . We can create ritual around

56:31

it and we can , yes , make sure that we are filling

56:33

that connection cup as much as possible

56:36

before going . The other piece

56:38

, though , is that sometimes

56:40

, a child feels like they're betraying

56:42

one parent by being

56:44

with the other parent , Right , and so

56:46

, especially if they feel like one parent

56:48

is sort of the bad

56:51

guy in the situation and I don't mean male

56:54

, just the term bad guy

56:56

, you know , we

56:58

have to be very careful as

57:00

the other parent to say

57:02

like you know , I'm

57:04

okay right , Like I miss you when

57:06

you're gone , but I'm okay , right

57:09

, and here's what I'm going to do I'm

57:11

going to go have dinner with Auntie Judy

57:14

and then I'm going to go for

57:16

a run , and then I'm going to read my book , and then

57:18

I'm going to do this . They need to know that

57:21

we're okay , right , Because sometimes

57:24

children will struggle with separating

57:26

because they feel like they're betraying

57:28

the other parent and that they're leaving them all

57:30

by themselves themselves and they feel sad

57:32

about that . So we need to also

57:34

convey that we're okay

57:37

and they don't have to take care of us

57:39

, and that's our job to take care

57:41

of them .

57:42

I had never thought about that piece . It's so important

57:44

to realize . I love how you shared what you're

57:46

doing , because then the child also knows you're

57:48

fine , you're doing your own thing , you miss me

57:50

, I

57:57

miss you , but you're fine , you're you're doing your own thing , you miss me , I miss you , but you're okay

57:59

. I love that piece . Tamara , thank you , as always , for sharing all your insights and your knowledge with us

58:01

, um , and with me , you know . Uh , today is . This makes it my favorite episode between the two

58:03

of us , because I think I understand now why

58:05

we do what we do and why we've connected on this

58:07

. It just makes sense .

58:10

Yes , indeed , it sure does . But

58:12

honestly , I always love talking

58:14

to you and this is an important topic and despite

58:16

the fact that so many families are experiencing

58:19

this , we're still not really empowering

58:21

families enough to know how to navigate these

58:23

situations .

58:24

So I'm glad that you're bringing this up . Thank

58:26

you . Is there a way for anybody to reach you

58:28

If you can share ? Do you still

58:30

have courses or ways that we can learn from you ?

58:33

Yes , so I do have

58:35

my no More Power Struggles course

58:37

, which is an online course

58:40

that parents can . It's self-directed and

58:42

just helps them figure out how to move

58:44

away from those strategies

58:46

that we know don't work . You know timeouts

58:49

, punishments and so on and how to use

58:51

what we know about brain development

58:53

all the wonderful stuff that you share with

58:55

your audience how to leverage that

58:57

to support their development . So that's

59:00

available on my website , which is drtamarasoulscom

59:03

, and one of the resources

59:05

that I have on there that speaks to a lot

59:07

of families is the four often

59:09

overlooked reasons why your child is melting down

59:11

, and I have that there because

59:13

it helps everyone look a little deeper

59:16

and even in the context of divorce it's

59:18

going beyond just the surface behaviors

59:20

Like what's underneath that we need

59:22

to kind of pay attention to and notice . So

59:24

that's up there as well on my website if

59:27

that's helpful for anybody .

59:28

Thank you , I will add the link to your

59:30

website and the show notes and to your social media as well

59:32

. Thank you , I will add the link to your website and the show notes and to

59:34

your social media as well . Thank you again and I look forward to our next

59:37

talk . Thanks , cindy , me too .