0:00

Back in 2005, my friend Dave

0:02

recommended a book to me. He

0:04

knew I was trying to find ways

0:06

to keep my team of really talented

0:08

creative pros, both healthy and productive, but

0:10

that I was struggling a bit to

0:12

figure out why we sometimes just felt

0:14

a little flat. As

0:17

someone who was immensely creative and had an

0:19

impressive background, Dave's recommendation went a long way.

0:21

So, I checked out the book, and

0:25

it gave me language that I didn't previously have

0:27

to describe what we were feeling. Resistance.

0:32

We were experiencing the Resistance,

0:34

capital R. This

0:37

is a term that Steven Pressfield used in his book

0:39

The War of Art to describe

0:41

the force that comes against anyone

0:43

who is trying to do difficult,

0:46

creative things. Inevitably, it becomes easier

0:48

just to bend than it is to

0:50

fight the battle against uncertainty. Just

0:53

having a name for the enemy was helpful because once

0:55

you identify obstacles, it somehow makes

0:57

overcoming them seem just a little bit more

0:59

possible. A few years

1:01

later, I had a phone conversation with Steven for my podcast.

1:05

It turns out that it was one of the first

1:07

podcast interviews he'd done. There's like

1:10

the opening little two sentence chapter

1:12

of The War of Art goes

1:14

something like this. There's a secret

1:16

that real writers know, that wannabe writers don't

1:18

know. And the secret is this. The

1:21

writing is not the hard part. The

1:23

hard part is sitting down to write. So

1:26

my sort of overview of the creative

1:28

process is that it is a battle.

1:31

There's no sort of magic state

1:34

of flow that you plug into

1:36

when everything comes effortlessly. That

1:38

each day is a matter

1:41

of kind of marshalling your

1:43

resources, your emotional resources, and

1:45

your resources of perseverance

1:48

and tenacity and aggression.

1:51

And pushing through

1:54

the internal sabotage

1:57

acts that you're unconscious or whatever you

1:59

call it. you know where it comes from

2:01

will throw up to get in your way. So

2:05

Steven believes that the very act

2:07

of creating or leading or somehow

2:09

trying to tame chaos into order

2:11

is an act of

2:13

war, which means that we need to do

2:16

two things. First, we need to identify the

2:18

enemies. And second, we need

2:20

to show up every single day to the

2:23

battle. There's a little quote that I have

2:25

in a warlord from Somerset Mall. I don't

2:27

know if you remember that, Todd, but somebody

2:29

once asked him if he wrote

2:31

on a schedule or if he only

2:33

wrote when inspiration struck him. And he

2:36

said, I write only when inspiration strikes me. He

2:38

said, fortunately, it strikes me every morning and then

2:40

I go on sharp. I have a real blue

2:42

collar attitude towards how to work. I feel like,

2:44

you know, you get in your hard hat, you

2:46

grab your lunch pounce on your work boots, and

2:49

you go to the job site, and you start working.

2:52

Steven's advice about confronting the resistance

2:54

is great. If you love your work

2:56

and you know what you need to do, you just

2:58

struggle to get motivated to do it. But

3:02

when you work inside of an organization, you

3:04

don't always get to choose the tasks that

3:06

you do every day. If

3:08

you want to be brave, you have to go all

3:10

in. But how do you

3:12

go all in when you may not love the work that

3:14

you do all the time? On

3:16

today's show, we have two leaders

3:19

who took very different approaches to solving

3:21

that problem. Fighting resistance

3:24

and helping their team fall back in love with

3:26

their work. This is

3:28

Daily Creative and my name is Todd Henry.

3:30

Welcome to the show. As

3:36

in my office one day, this was a prior

3:39

company, I was doing computer crime investigation. Sitting

3:41

there calculating numbers. I figured

3:43

out the numbers, like, oh, we can do $10 million

3:46

this year if we simply do X, Y, and Z. That's

3:49

Mike McAlibis. He is an entrepreneur

3:51

and the author of several best-selling

3:54

business books. I come out of

3:56

my office. I had 30 employees at the time. I call everyone in. I

3:58

put the cheesy, Survivors, you know,

4:00

I the tiger music in the background like

4:03

big announcement We're gonna do 10 million this

4:05

year if we simply do this this and this and

4:08

it was like this most deflating moment Like

4:10

a balloon was let out no

4:12

one cared. I'm like 10 million

4:15

and my assistant she comes up to me She was Mike if

4:17

we do 10 million you get the house you get the

4:19

car. Why should we care? And

4:22

then that's why I realized my god, we all have our own Visions

4:26

for ourselves the dream for the business

4:28

is really the dream of the business owner or the leaders

4:30

of the organization Because it means something

4:32

to them But as a

4:34

employee rank-and-file or otherwise we all have our own

4:36

visions when I buy a house one day I

4:38

want to spend more time with my family It's

4:41

the responsibility of the leader to be

4:43

all in on those visions My job is to keep

4:46

that as the forefront of their mind and if I'm

4:48

caring for the development of their dream They'll

4:50

care for the development of mine This

4:54

idea of reciprocation is at the heart of

4:56

what we're about to explore Does

4:59

it really work and how do you

5:01

do it? And where can it go wrong

5:03

and what's possible if you manage to pull

5:05

it off? So often

5:08

we find ourselves at war with leadership because

5:10

there's a disconnect They

5:12

want us to go all in but we're

5:15

not sure what's in it for me In

5:18

Mike McCulloch with his new book. He lays out

5:20

a path for overcoming that resistance. He calls it

5:22

FASO FASO

5:25

I had a receptionist who the

5:28

job title was receptionist But the tasks were you know

5:30

greet people the door when we used to do that

5:33

Answer the phones and be kind to people

5:35

direct them and also data entry invoicing She

5:38

was amazing at greeting people and just caring

5:41

for people that you felt connected when

5:43

you met her But my god the

5:45

data compliance components were not her talent

5:48

Well, we had a salesperson who was great at

5:50

closing sales The closer of the

5:52

century and very good at tracking all the data

5:54

to ensure their closing sales But was horrible at

5:56

the farming phase. What I did is

5:58

I realized I've been matching Titles to

6:00

talents I should be matching the tasks to

6:03

their talents And so we kind of started

6:05

diluting the significance of titles and said you're

6:08

great at talking to people so our

6:10

receptions became our Farmer in the sales

6:12

phase as maturing relationships and stuff and

6:14

started to rock it out it elevated

6:16

the company our sales Person

6:18

who's a great closer start doing data

6:20

entry who crushed it with that and

6:22

when people match Their

6:25

talents to the tasks you have

6:27

available. It starts to elevate us It's

6:29

actually the ultimate form of engagement I think a

6:31

lot of people are diluted because they're doing what they don't want

6:33

or like to do and certain points like well

6:36

I should pursue something else What

6:40

Mike is talking about is fit It's

6:43

the F in Faso and

6:45

he believes it's where all in begins

6:48

Typically what happens in organizations is that

6:50

they create ladders the higher you go

6:52

the more responsibility you bear Regardless of

6:54

whether you're well matched to the tasks

6:57

that are required to do the job

6:59

It's why so often people are promoted to

7:02

their level of incompetence to cite the Peter

7:04

principle And it's also a

7:06

foolproof approach for draining the motivation out

7:08

of a company Mike

7:10

says that instead of confining ourselves by

7:13

titles We should focus on tasks what

7:15

tasks need to be done and who's

7:17

naturally good at them Nothing more than

7:19

nothing less and you'll see that when

7:22

you define it that way Relationship

7:24

builder it's not a title. It starts

7:26

bleeding across the organization We're

7:29

gonna start defining it that way and then when you look for people You'll

7:32

find you need much fewer people to

7:34

raise the performance of your entire company

7:37

my own little business here I've eight people here My

7:39

nearest competitor has about double the workforce and I

7:41

would say if I may be so bold We're

7:43

performing at a higher level than they are with

7:45

half the people because we're title

7:47

list people flow into where their natural

7:49

talents Are that's fit? you

8:00

But again, FIT is just the start.

8:02

You have to consider ability as well, which

8:04

is the A in FASO, for those of

8:07

you keeping score at home. There's

8:09

a cool experiment, or more than

8:11

experiment now, it's a deployed system

8:13

at Audible. This is the book

8:15

company. They start a

8:18

program called Returnships, not Internships, but

8:20

Returnships. And what they're first

8:23

doing is they're reaching out to a community that

8:25

has left the workforce because long-term

8:27

illness, caring for someone else, you know,

8:29

all these different things that happened since

8:31

and prior to COVID. Then

8:33

they said, hey, we have an opportunity for you to experience

8:35

the professional environment and get flavors of all these things you

8:38

could do. It's like these mini skill

8:40

workshops. And what they're doing

8:42

is when people come back for the six weeks stint,

8:44

they're exposed to all these different things and they see

8:46

where their natural propensity and desire is. Then

8:49

Audible is picked, it's a massive amount.

8:51

It's like 50% of those people ultimately

8:53

become Audible employees and the other 50%

8:56

get jobs elsewhere because they worked at Audible for this period of

8:58

time. They have a skill set. So everyone's

9:00

being elevated. Great leaders

9:02

expose our team to opportunities and

9:04

say, listen, I don't know if

9:06

it's perfect for you, but you may have interest.

9:08

Okay, but you might be thinking like I am,

9:10

what does that have to do with ability? I

9:13

found that most companies, and I did the same

9:15

thing, hire people based upon experiential talent, meaning what

9:17

have you done in the past is an indicator

9:19

of what you'll do in the future. And

9:22

it is, but it's not a good indicator because we did

9:24

something in the past doesn't mean that's our passion or anything.

9:26

It's just, it's just on a resume. There's

9:29

another level which some businesses do not

9:31

enough. We look at what's called innate

9:33

talent or ability. And what this

9:35

is, it's like the Myers-Briggs and the Enneagrams. It's our

9:37

behavioral tendencies and that's a good indicator. But

9:39

there's a third component and this makes up the 80%. Like

9:42

this is the big thing that almost no one

9:44

tries for or it looks for. And

9:46

it's potential ability. What could this person

9:48

potentially do in the future? So of course the

9:50

question is, okay, of course that matters, but how do you look for

9:52

it? Real simple. You put

9:55

on workshops, you do return ships. Leaders

9:59

often think that The really good at

10:01

spotting potential. But. You'd.

10:03

Typically don't spot potential as music was

10:06

saying. sometimes you have to mind for

10:08

it. When was the

10:10

last time a leader invested time and

10:12

resources in the mining for potential in

10:14

new or women's the last and the

10:16

you as a leader took the time

10:18

the mind for potential in others around.

10:20

My guess is that if they did

10:23

as he would ignite something inside and

10:25

make you want to give your best

10:27

Would it. Makes book

10:29

is really a treasure chest, a practical tools

10:31

and insights not just on how to build

10:33

sit in ability in your organization but also

10:35

safety and ownership. He covers all this and

10:37

more in. Which you

10:40

can listen to inside the daily

10:42

created that you can also check

10:44

out Mike's work at Mike motorbike.com.

10:47

As a new book is called All In. A

10:50

before you do stick around were far

10:52

from finished. Remember that at the heart

10:54

of makes model is the idea of

10:56

reciprocity. Go all in on your team

10:58

and they'll go all in on you.

11:01

But there is more than one way to do that. And

11:03

if you're thinking thanks Mike but I've tried

11:06

stuff like that is it really didn't work

11:08

for me or make sense? Well I'm not

11:10

sure it'll fly at my company. the perhaps

11:12

what you're looking for is in Los Angeles.

11:17

In the mid two thousand, Stiller Holiday

11:20

was drafted in the nineteenth round by

11:22

the New York Yankees. After spending a

11:24

couple years in the minor leagues with

11:26

the Staten Island Yankees and the Charleston

11:28

River Dogs, he was eventually released only

11:31

to become a heavy hitter. In the

11:33

world of ecommerce. He

11:35

founded Common Thread Collective and Orange County,

11:37

California based E Commerce Agency with Than

11:40

in Place of Client List and and

11:42

even more impressive culture. The.

11:44

Early on, things weren't quite so

11:46

impressive, just. Don't get me

11:48

wrong, they were off to a good start,

11:50

but Ctc was a small fish in a

11:53

big pot and one of their early challenges

11:55

was recruiting top talent. in

11:57

his early days they didn't how much money to spend

11:59

on official

14:00

company program, almost like an

14:02

employee benefit. It's

14:04

not uncommon for companies to put employees on

14:06

an improvement plan to hit company goals, but

14:09

Taylor wanted to put company money behind

14:11

helping CTCers achieve their personal dreams. It

14:13

was incredible. They were as basic as,

14:15

I'd like to play the piano and

14:18

sing a song at the Christmas party

14:20

to perform live in front of people.

14:22

One guy wanted to build a motorbike

14:24

from the ground up and race

14:26

it in front of his friends. Someone else

14:28

wanted to learn Italian. One incredibly brave

14:30

soul decided that she wanted to be

14:32

an active recovery for an eating disorder

14:35

and not be ashamed of it. It

14:37

was amazing the spectrum of what we're

14:39

talking about here. That's Dane Sanders.

14:42

He joined Common Thread Collective in the early days

14:44

of building the Tell Me Your Dreams program. Today,

14:47

Dane is VP of Employee

14:49

Development and Performance, but he remembers

14:51

the countless dreams he helped employees

14:53

identify and achieve in those early

14:56

months and years. Like

14:58

one kid, his dream was to dunk a

15:00

basketball. We paid

15:02

money as a company to help

15:04

this guy go take jumping lessons

15:06

from this dunk-meister. We

15:09

saw progressions of he could touch the

15:11

rim barely and he got a tennis

15:13

ball in and then a volleyball. Then

15:15

he dunked and you're like, that just

15:17

happened. This guy, it was so cool.

15:19

You can imagine when everybody is cheering

15:22

that you're known, you're cared for. It

15:24

might seem little, but it's probably a

15:26

milestone in that kid's life. That

15:29

happened. Who is responsible? Well, I

15:31

did the jumping, but my company made that happen

15:33

for me. The line we use all the time

15:35

was, you may not have your dream job, but

15:37

you have a job that definitely helps you achieve

15:40

your dreams. That was powerful.

15:42

What's interesting though is you'll notice very quickly

15:44

none of those things had to do with

15:46

the company's aspirations. Maybe

15:50

they did because Common Thread entered a

15:52

season of rapid growth. The

15:54

team went to a whole new level, zero

15:56

to 10 million in their first three

15:58

years. They landed big

16:01

name clients while winning best place to

16:03

work award, becoming an

16:05

industry darling. Dreaming for

16:07

a living sounds weird, but somehow

16:10

it worked. It became

16:12

one of the core operating systems for

16:14

everyone in the company, including Taylor, the

16:16

guy who kind of had this idea

16:18

initially. He went through his own program

16:20

and his dream was to launch

16:22

Tell Me Your Dreams not as an employee

16:24

initiative, but as a whole company. It exists

16:27

right now. Taylor's dream came true. Tell

16:29

me your dreams expanded from an in-house

16:31

employee program to a standalone company to

16:34

bring the tell me your dream

16:36

system to other businesses looking for the

16:38

same results. That's when

16:41

Dane joined full-time as CEO of

16:43

Tell Me Your Dreams to lead

16:45

the effort alongside Tommy, the therapist.

16:47

If you're curious, you can check

16:49

out tellmeyourdreams.com. But for all this

16:51

success and growth, here's the thing.

16:53

If you walk through the doors of

16:55

Common Thread Collective today, you wouldn't hear

16:58

much about dreaming anymore, at least not

17:00

like you used to. What got unearthed

17:02

was these new passions that

17:04

people wanted to go pursue. And in

17:06

most cases, like dunking in basketball, playing

17:09

the piano, nobody was

17:11

going to quit their day job to go do these things. Yet

17:14

in other cases, they were. One

17:16

person's dream was to start a digital ad

17:18

agency and be in direct competition. For the

17:21

season we ran, it was magical. It really

17:23

was magical. But you can see right

17:25

away, like we were drifting in

17:27

a direction that could create problems. Slowly

17:30

but surely Common Thread Collective

17:33

began noticing some unsettling signs,

17:36

a growing sense of entitlement and increased

17:38

turnover. Just to name a couple. Made

17:40

all these people who were good people,

17:42

but they had achieved their dreams. They

17:44

were just kind of looking beyond CTC,

17:46

looking for what's next. Something had to

17:48

change. What was once highly motivating

17:50

and creating a profound sense of all in

17:52

wasn't working the way it used to. Moments

17:56

like these are where leaders earn their keep.

17:59

Are They going to keep doing what they want? They've been doing and

18:01

just hope for better results. Or.

18:03

Are they going to make the brief choice

18:05

and try something different? What? Would

18:08

you do? Well. Taylor

18:10

pulled together some of his key employees

18:12

at an off Say and ask Danes

18:14

who was at the time busy running

18:16

tell Your Dreams to help guide the

18:18

conversation. He. Walks Answer: process of

18:21

establishing high watermark about forty one of

18:23

the com and have the Cdc healthy

18:25

way beyond your dreams, actually become someone

18:27

new and would you be willing to

18:29

commit. Like. Three years.

18:32

Of for going to go after something special. Going

18:34

to build something new. And. We had a

18:36

remarkably high number of people raise their hand

18:38

and say i'm in. And at

18:40

the end of that retreat Taylor pull me

18:43

aside and said he was just convinced that

18:45

this idea of establishing the high watermark of

18:47

could you want to become in this context

18:49

was the way we needed to move forward.

18:52

The language we use is important and notice

18:54

the way Dean and Taylor's language changed the

18:56

went from phrases like what dream can we

18:58

help you achieve to what can a person

19:00

can we help you become. That's.

19:03

An important shift. There. Was

19:05

another important shift that can be overlooked. Instead

19:07

of a double minded tit for tat, I'll

19:09

help you reach your dream if you help

19:12

me reach mine proposition. He. Became

19:14

about building one special thing together.

19:16

A world class organization where only

19:18

the best of the best can

19:20

thrive. A Common Thread Collective. There's

19:22

a short handed the use for that. Standard.

19:25

Setting. When. We got really clear

19:27

on what we wanted to do for

19:29

our customers. we just do a lot

19:32

of the sand and said we want

19:34

to be standard setters. We were going

19:36

to treat this craft that seriously. And

19:38

not pretend like everything is is easy. And

19:40

what's interesting is it it it a different

19:42

kind of crowd into our applicant pool. People

19:45

who were like actually I'm interested in being

19:47

around other colleagues who were ambitious and want

19:49

to get better when it actually jane agency

19:51

in their life where they say yeah, I

19:53

do hard things that work and actually feel

19:56

good about it, we're tapping into a different

19:58

kind of motivation. In short, the. The dolled

20:00

up the challenge, which can be a

20:02

remarkably powerful tool for transforming people. Certainly

20:05

that old Johnny Cash song. a boy

20:08

named Sue about a father who gave

20:10

him that name and said goodbye. He

20:12

knew he either had to get tough

20:14

or. To that's

20:16

a dangerous way to use

20:18

challenge, affective that kind of

20:20

cruel smart leaders understand that

20:22

the challenge isn't the. It's

20:25

a means to an end. A distinction

20:27

that many leaders forget because they

20:29

don't provide stability to support that.

20:31

salads for Common Thread Collective becoming

20:33

the bus company they could wasn't

20:36

the end game, it was simply

20:38

the excuse for playing be infinite

20:40

game. A term coined by

20:42

philosopher James Cars. How.

20:44

Do we become the kinds of people capable

20:46

of doing something remarkable? And if you walk

20:49

through the doors of Common Thread Collective today,

20:51

you'll find a team of people embracing challenge

20:53

daily. As they become the people

20:55

live always dreamed of. It's. More

20:57

about food. I want to become as an

21:00

individual in this project that we're doing together

21:02

Common Thread Collective mobile. This place facilitate me

21:04

becoming as a professional Nasa kind of person

21:06

that we want to dry in and that's

21:08

why we recognize it really isn't for everybody.

21:11

Perhaps. When way to think about it is

21:13

it's not that they're trying to improve their employees

21:15

so they can operate as an elite level. It's.

21:18

That they chose to become an

21:20

organization that operates as an elite

21:22

level so that. They. Could ask

21:24

the question. What? Kind of people would

21:26

we need at an agency like ours in order

21:28

for us to execute at that level? So. is

21:31

it paying off it's funny even just maybe we

21:33

can a half ago we were talking specifically about

21:35

the lack of need for a pep rally to

21:37

going into black friday and cyber monday can people

21:39

were just on it when you sharpening deliver and

21:41

you're proud of your work you don't need to

21:43

kind of good your lines and have an extra

21:45

cup of coffee to get going in the morning

21:47

like this is this who we are and i

21:50

would say the brands that are choosing as the

21:52

clarity of kind of what we're measuring for even

21:54

that challenges are up against like we're we have

21:56

better problems that we had back then we've upgraded

21:58

our problems and i think that those are

22:00

the kinds of indicators that we're going in the direction

22:02

that we need to go to right now. It's interesting

22:04

that at first blush, it looks

22:06

like they're all challenge and no

22:08

stability or support when actually they're

22:11

providing just as much support as

22:13

they are challenge. It

22:15

just doesn't look like what we often think

22:17

support looks like. It's not unlimited vacation policies,

22:19

foosball tables or free lunches that people need.

22:22

It's someone who is able to meet them

22:24

in the weeds of daily life and help

22:26

them adopt the kinds of behaviors that turn

22:28

them into the kind of person they aspire

22:31

to become. As

22:33

Seth Godin likes to say, people like

22:35

us do things like this. Being

22:38

that kind of person, it's not for the

22:40

faint of heart. A lot of people would

22:42

prefer to just shrink back and get through

22:44

their day and we don't tend to attract

22:46

those kinds of people. We're looking for people

22:48

who actually really want to make something of

22:50

their time and not just make money in

22:52

their time. So just to

22:55

summarize our conversation today, we've

22:57

heard really three different methods

22:59

for approaching the problem of

23:01

helping people overcome resistance and

23:04

engage with their work. The first was

23:06

Mike's model, which was I'll

23:08

give you fit, ability, safety and ownership if

23:10

you work hard and give your best. And

23:12

then you get what you want and I

23:15

get what I want and it's a way

23:17

to create engagement and get people all

23:19

in. The second was

23:21

tell me your dreams. I'll help you reach

23:23

your personal dreams outside of work if you'll

23:25

help me reach my company dreams. And

23:28

then the third method we

23:30

just listened to is I'll help you become the kind

23:32

of person you want to be as we

23:35

both strive for elite performance.

23:39

And all three of these models had

23:41

their benefits. If

23:43

you're a part of an organization, I think

23:45

the key is finding the one that best

23:47

fits where you are at that given moment.

23:50

Are you in a season where your team

23:52

needs more stability or are you in a

23:54

season where maybe your team needs more challenge?

23:57

And that's the big question we have to be

23:59

constantly. constantly asking as we endeavor

24:02

to lead creative work. Over

24:06

the next few weeks of this series, we're going to

24:08

be talking more about what it means to be brave

24:10

every day in your life and in

24:12

your work as we lead up to the launch

24:14

of my book, The Brave Habit, on January 23rd.

24:18

Next week, we're going to talk about what it means to

24:20

reclaim a sense of agency and to

24:23

understand your true capabilities and what you

24:25

have at your disposal to help you

24:27

accomplish your goals and

24:29

your ambitions. If

24:32

you'd like to listen to the full interviews with Mike

24:34

McAllowitz and Dane Sanders, as

24:36

well as receive daily encouragement,

24:39

insights, and challenges, you

24:41

can do so in the Daily Creative app at

24:43

DailyCreative.app. Daily

24:46

Creative is produced by Joshua Gott. My

24:49

name is Todd Henry. Until next time, be

24:51

brave.