0:02

it's hardcore history addendum

0:07

so

0:07

the conversation that you're about to

0:09

listen to was

0:11

done through a format

0:14

that i ripped off from the people

0:16

that were taught with because i

0:18

was on their podcast not that long

0:20

ago and i remember thinking that the way that

0:22

they put it together structurally structurally

0:25

fantastic for three people

0:27

because when you have three people in a conversation

0:30

isn't good unwieldy sometimes i

0:32

thought they did a great job the show i thought when

0:34

fantastic and in fact elected so

0:36

much that i thought i'd like to do a version

0:39

of sort of a part to

0:41

if you will on our own our

0:44

so perhaps is fair to say part

0:46

one is available

0:48

from the archives of

0:50

the rest is history podcast

0:52

and well this is part two

0:55

or the guest on the program the host

0:57

of that podcast dominic sand broke sand

0:59

tom holland both riders

1:01

tv presenter as radio hosts are mean

1:03

they have hosts are varied careers

1:07

and while dominic's the

1:09

point of emphasis is usually more in the nineteen seventies

1:11

nineteen eighty sometimes churchill stuff tom

1:14

holland rolls around

1:16

in the mud the we like to roll around in

1:18

often and i've used his books for research

1:21

material material we used origin

1:24

fire for the persian shows we definitely

1:26

use his book on the fall of the roman

1:28

republic rubicon for our fall of

1:30

the roman republic series and

1:32

he's got a recent work out on

1:35

the impact of i

1:37

guess you could say christian thinking

1:39

on western society called dominion all

1:42

of it worth your time and as a

1:44

podcast the rest is history is absolutely worth

1:46

your time and if you go if you haven't already and

1:49

delve into their archives tons of fun

1:51

stuff on offering so check that

1:53

out if you like what you're about to hear if you like what you're about

1:55

to hear remember it's kind of part two

1:57

of an ongoing conversation check out part

2:00

on their podcast when you have a chance to without

2:02

further ado let's just call this party

2:12

all right gentlemen i'm considering this part two

2:14

of the earlier discussion that we had on your

2:16

program and so i'm gonna throw

2:19

some questions out there and you feel free to take

2:21

them in any direction you want but since i have to

2:23

brits with me when

2:25

, my mom was working in london when i

2:27

was a kid i was about five or six years old

2:29

and i was completely and namru with king

2:31

arthur at the time and yet even

2:34

at five or six i could tell that there was a bunch

2:36

of nonsense involved in the story

2:39

but i was under the impression that you could just stop

2:41

passers by on the street in london

2:43

and asked them for the true story and as

2:45

you can imagine i'm i still

2:47

am unsatisfied with the answers i got

2:49

so i thought i would tap into the brain trust

2:52

here and as you guys your opinion

2:54

and it may differ from each other or

2:56

do you think that the king arthur legend is rooted

2:58

in any sort of reality or is this a fabricated

3:01

myth from the get go

3:04

tom jurich fs and illness

3:07

well i don't think the author

3:09

i i historical out there existed

3:12

as for kind of blunt and brutal

3:14

truth of if it saddens me to say

3:16

that because i would always rather

3:18

that there was some

3:19

kind of

3:20

root of reality at the base of a mess but

3:23

having said that

3:26

i think that the way

3:28

that the story has evolved

3:30

i'm it it's had different

3:32

kind of residents is a different

3:34

periods of time and so in that sense

3:37

tracing where the story comes from

3:39

actually changed quite a lot about

3:42

medieval history early medieval history

3:44

of the beginnings of preset the beginnings

3:46

of england i'm the forging

3:49

of medieval culture so

3:51

in in that sense i think the

3:54

author is is a really fascinating topic

3:56

of historical enquiries but i think the

3:58

kind of boring around

3:59

gaming that there is some real author at the

4:02

that the base for i think that that's a fancy

4:04

the i agree with some damn i think com

4:06

i don't think there was

4:09

anybody called alpha and i don't think

4:11

any historian wanna rock archaeologists

4:14

store you know ethnographer or

4:16

whatever whatever uncover

4:18

single individual is the heart of the legend

4:20

but i completely agree it's on the the legend itself

4:24

is , ram is like all legends is

4:26

rooted in something i'm in it and

4:28

it wasn't invented as a fiction on

4:31

third base a clearly draws on on

4:33

on felt memories on mists

4:36

on a you know tells you an enormous amounts

4:39

not so much maybe about what

4:41

we now call england in the dark ages i

4:43

would say but the way that later

4:46

generations thought of that period in the way

4:48

this sort themselves and

4:51

the i guess them that the missus more interesting

4:53

than the man now isn't it i mean if the were a

4:55

figure like asa he was he

4:57

must have been a what

4:59

would you say tama kind of romano

5:01

british warlord or something i mean

5:03

ultimately how interesting is that compared

5:05

with the legend of us when they

5:08

the way that's accumulated over time they

5:10

think what would you think that well

5:13

i'm i'm i'm riffing off with you

5:15

guys just said because if this is a part

5:17

of of of englishness

5:19

if we could call it that than how does well

5:21

but that but that she is is that that's the

5:23

one is the thinks it's fascinating about it is as it's

5:26

not about englishness so much although become

5:28

sad because of course the english at the enemies

5:30

right every single a cellphone how the invader or that's

5:32

exactly where is going if this is a guy fighting the

5:34

anglo saxons which are a complete

5:36

key component of the blending that will eventually

5:39

happen how is this guy anything

5:41

other than some sort of romano

5:43

celtic hero or something like

5:45

that another was how did you get wrapped up in

5:47

this sort of english history would like you said here

5:49

he is fighting the saxon invaders

5:51

we're going to fuse with the various kingdoms to

5:54

create what we think of as england correct

5:56

well as thorough

5:58

these kind of the

5:59

these traditions that a floating around but the

6:02

guy who really compiles misapplied cool geoffrey

6:04

of monmouth right who is writing

6:06

as of welshman essentially and

6:09

his his his is author

6:11

is a key figure but not the only one and

6:14

it's a story about how

6:16

britain is founded by brutus who is

6:18

a refugee , chen who

6:20

comes to britain than fights fairies giants

6:22

and that's very much the level at which this

6:24

is operating your city that that's not historically

6:27

what of yeah well as as last

6:29

alaska last is still

6:31

a nice know giants damn dialogue about

6:34

you that's what i've heard from every in this business

6:36

sf it's efforts jeffrey is

6:39

basically costing the that the english

6:41

the some acts the saxons as

6:43

the enemy but a caused

6:46

by this point i'm you

6:48

have norman kings of england and

6:50

have descended from the from

6:53

from william the conqueror i'm and

6:55

they end up conquering wales so

6:58

the king of england than so those wealth traditions

7:00

get absorbed into they

7:04

become the matter of britain and the kings of

7:06

england see themselves as the rule as a whole

7:08

of britain so justice they absorb

7:10

the mountains and the and

7:12

the valleys of wales into that kingdom say

7:14

will say did they end up absorbing these

7:17

traditions about king arthur and that's why

7:19

you have edwards the first who who

7:21

is the king who coworkers wales he's

7:23

obsessed by offer i mean he's the

7:25

guy he gets the glass to break claims that is a glass ended

7:27

and digs up the tomb that supposedly as

7:29

the yeah in the monks were may be involved in that

7:32

for a little bit of you know glastonbury adversity

7:34

and whatnot and , it was it works

7:37

there are further to his son like as the beginning of

7:39

the fifteen cents sorry the the sixteenth

7:41

century i guess when you have the

7:44

the advent of the tudors so

7:46

of see him issued a landing and fourteen eighty five

7:48

beating was said the battle of bosworth on

7:51

the idea of the to this is the as to offer

7:53

is really important to them sir henry seventh

7:55

son who famously dies

7:58

at level dies causal paving the way for the

8:00

a to become king he's called offer

8:02

henry the eighth loves the story of king

8:04

arthur phenomenal rice the heat

8:06

on the henry the eighth repairs

8:09

the great painting of the round table

8:11

and yeah has it gone for the village of the

8:13

emperor for the visit yes he does

8:16

yeah i'm one of the things that rate at also factset

8:18

so as to as dominic says it has

8:21

political capital because in a way

8:23

also is very

8:26

very famous british export english

8:28

export at a time when england is really quite

8:30

peripheral kingdom to the rest of

8:32

europe i'm author is a name

8:35

that matters the matter of person that

8:37

is something that resonates

8:39

to all the courts of europe so i'm

8:42

that the upstart to just by laying claim to

8:44

that ah in a that that that

8:46

they're aggrandizing there and in a sea and their

8:48

aggrandizing that kingdom but i think

8:50

all say the way that henry

8:53

the eighth repairs the suppose it round table

8:55

was hanging in winchester say

8:58

, way in which of it's not

9:00

just us who are romanticizing

9:02

these stories people were doing it in the middle

9:04

ages the say my favorite example

9:06

of fat is to tatchell this incredibly

9:09

romantic castle in cornwall

9:12

i mean it's kind of one of the tools in

9:14

the corners tourist industry and it's

9:16

a job because it looks exactly

9:18

what you would imagine i'm thing

9:20

off his birthplace would look like

9:23

it's on a kind of rocky island the waves

9:26

crashing into the rocks they're kind

9:28

of beautiful bridges that spam it that

9:30

spam like something from a medieval romance

9:32

and the reason for that is that that's what it

9:34

says hi to look like it was built

9:37

by the the that the brother of

9:39

henry the third he said the first saw richard

9:43

you colo and he fills it

9:45

to look fucking kick

9:48

off his castle so even then they're

9:50

kind of constructing and fastening the myth

9:52

and now of course when tourists go to tourists tatchell

9:55

that they're buying into

9:57

a medieval idea of what a medieval

9:59

castle i never did kind of attitude

10:01

that reflects enough to reflect snuffed reflects

10:03

movies had a mirror is held up to each other which

10:06

is what makes it such a brilliant brilliant story

10:08

i see one other him until buses that and seventeen

10:10

a southern england

10:12

, officially become great

10:14

britain the kingdom of great britain and

10:17

at that point at that also does become

10:20

he says he's both the british hero and

10:22

and and and english one because england

10:24

and britain set in the minds of the english

10:27

become acquainted with each other so one of the most famous

10:29

books ever written about british his you're needing

10:31

this history was most of your listeners

10:33

i'm guessing most of it was a much

10:35

interest in them is the box and sixty

10:37

six know that comic book by

10:40

some as in the eight min at the beginning the twentieth century

10:42

one of the jokes and that book so it's it's basically

10:44

a parody of this is true that kids with tools

10:47

and and i guess would you say

10:49

it would in school tom early twentieth century

10:51

that was one of the jokes and it is the

10:53

alfred ever had the book constantly

10:55

mixes up king arthur and alfred the great

10:57

but i think that's what even now lots

10:59

of people kind of makes the to

11:02

the haven't they taunt the are they have it out of sense

11:04

that they for invaders they

11:06

did stuff with candles and time keeping

11:09

their a good christian kings all

11:11

this cloud us while i i think

11:13

actually i mean i think that's it's

11:15

, that they they make that joke because

11:17

i think actually one of the models for

11:20

jeffrey monmouth's portrayal of author

11:23

is alfred grandson apple fan

11:25

who is the english king who

11:27

essentially creates the kingdom of england

11:30

kingdom it's the first

11:32

really to to make the prince of wales

11:34

pay the english crown tribute and

11:37

the his , person

11:39

ends with the coming to power of apple's

11:42

them it's it's as though this is

11:44

where british history stocks but the seeing this

11:46

of completely taken over i've actually

11:49

the portrayal of out

11:51

of of author in geoffrey

11:54

of monmouth history it has lots

11:56

of echoes of afl stamps so it's kind

11:58

of like jeffrey is trying to by

12:00

a british mirror image of apple's that

12:03

the short answer to question down and know

12:06

yet how does it compare to has i remember

12:09

buying books buying london as london as off

12:11

arthur's been search of arthur's britain

12:13

all these kind of things where it seemed as though i'm

12:16

the the british themselves were trying to get a handle

12:19

on what this wasn't i remember that that

12:21

the book is very unsatisfying because instead of giving

12:23

me a yes or no answer is sort of just

12:25

took you through the the post

12:27

romano british you know myths and

12:29

countryside and all that but you folks mentioned

12:32

the normans a minute ago so let me let

12:34

me bring you into something that i said recently

12:37

and let me get your opinion on it so i've

12:39

always been fascinated with the fact that you

12:41

know nowadays if you tried

12:43

to fight a modern army against

12:45

an army from thirty years ago it's it's it's

12:48

ridiculous but for most

12:50

of human history with technology moving either

12:52

as slowly as it did or

12:54

with these sort of let's call it ebbs and flows

12:56

of capabilities right away as someone

12:59

from an earlier era could have a

13:01

military that was more capable from someone perhaps

13:03

in a later era which is course anathema

13:05

now i had said that i thought

13:07

that julius caesar's romans

13:09

would have defeated william

13:12

the conqueror's norman's and of course there's you

13:14

know centuries and centuries and centuries between

13:16

the two are took some flak for

13:18

that you folks have an opinion on that

13:21

i haven't and and on that to i would say

13:23

difficulties it would would ,

13:26

been the normans undoubtedly so the normans

13:28

i guess that big innovations some you tom

13:30

knows more about the snider so once i've spoken

13:32

thomas i'm aware of gone wrong wrong made

13:34

several york city bang on the money saved

13:36

their big innovations nights has met a

13:39

man said cavalry basically have our

13:41

officer armored cavalry i guess he would say

13:43

the arms ounces people alarms alarms

13:46

in a big spears alexander the great big space

13:48

thomas we've discussed on their own pockets many

13:50

times many so

13:52

i would say the the romans

13:55

were the ones where the had infinitely superior

13:57

the two sticks to give much more thought to military strategy

13:59

they had a more resilient political structure

14:02

behind them you know the had is incredibly

14:04

well trained well disciplined professional troops

14:07

the motor the norm and some in the normans there if

14:10

you were being harsh about the normans you would

14:12

say there was banned

14:15

you know that a slightly superior vikings

14:18

on they tom front scientists since for

14:20

well at night things ice i

14:22

think that norman cavalry is incredibly

14:24

proficient

14:25

them and as

14:28

cada uno as a norman boy

14:30

you're trying to the saddle and you are

14:32

raised to handle alarms from some cases river

14:34

a difficult thing to do burnham never tried it but

14:37

it , it doesn't come easily i'm

14:39

so that they are very they are cavalry

14:42

but i agree to me like previews

14:44

eat an ice i think come caesar's legion

14:46

would wipe the floor with enormous

14:48

because they were the most

14:50

lethal fighting force the the

14:53

world up to that point had seat the

14:56

and d cause they would become even more lethal because

14:59

they were they would the com be

15:01

kind of professional lobbyists and

15:05

i think that the

15:07

really the only way to defeat that

15:10

class of infantry was the way that the parthian

15:12

did against them crosses his army in

15:14

the desert which is to have gotten fast open

15:17

blank expansive of land and

15:19

have very have very horse archers

15:23

but i think otherwise the ravens

15:25

are always going to

15:26

the enormous not least because

15:28

of course

15:29

it will trigger cavalry that's what you get a think

15:31

that's the kind of with the elephant against

15:34

the whale kind of situation but caesar

15:36

had great cavalry i mean caesar caesar

15:38

recruited gallic cavalry he retreated arts

15:40

as he had all kinds of auxiliary who

15:42

would be part of the makes as well as

15:45

a rabid commander he would be perfectly happy to sacrifice

15:48

this is romans probably

15:50

some sometimes rooms a much larger numbers anyway

15:53

i'm gonna have a logistics they can support greater

15:55

numbers than military muslim his father is

15:57

and also you mentioned a sounds i mean the normans that

16:00

why i love with action figure they'll make sense

16:03

of the saxons the sex of insects and have a the

16:05

anglo saxon have a retreat was reputedly

16:07

the best in in europe which is why

16:09

off the hastings so many of them go to constantinople

16:12

and and service the bodyguard had of

16:14

range of to jabra yeah but

16:17

it but even so i mean that you know that that the anglo

16:19

saxon

16:20

military cannot compare

16:23

for separate professional training will

16:25

discipline

16:26

the romans why that army had just come

16:28

from fighting in the north to it wasn't even the best

16:30

example of an anglo sack rides was it

16:32

that right there so i think i think if

16:35

i think it's a in a set up a close

16:38

run thing hastings get

16:41

harold rb

16:43

i think i think they would have

16:45

i think they would have been annihilated by

16:47

season that

16:49

is centuries and centuries before has

16:52

a so so what do you think accounts

16:54

for that i am and what makes it so cause i'm

16:56

fascinated with with the fact that the dynamic

16:58

is so different today than

17:00

it was through our military history

17:03

right work or armies from centuries previously

17:05

could i mean alexander's army would have given

17:08

i would say many of the later armies ago there

17:10

there was a book on by arthur feral

17:12

on i've , the title

17:15

is a habit at the very end of it he

17:17

had talked about the he tried to imagine

17:20

napoleon trying to fight

17:22

alexander to fight said if you could discount

17:25

the the on the effect

17:27

of firearms on a morale level

17:30

that that even might be in near run

17:32

saying what are you folks think about taking

17:34

it that far into the in into the recent

17:37

past i will i will it's a little

17:39

technology isn't that yeah i mean it's technology

17:41

that makes the difference so

17:46

i'm an essentially the that

17:48

evolution you know the discovery of iron say are

17:50

supposed to bronze and iron i job he's

17:52

going to defeat brahms i saw me i

17:54

can because of the difference in the medals

17:56

yes because because the effects of an eye and

17:58

sword is going to be lethal on

18:00

a bronze thought for instance i'm

18:03

a likewise the development save the stirrup

18:05

facilitates a

18:08

quality of cavalry the he wouldn't have before

18:10

that and obviously the development

18:12

of as gunpowder

18:15

completely changes the equation if

18:18

you are measuring ah say

18:21

or roman legion against

18:24

ah any

18:26

any kind of army that is

18:29

ah

18:30

three gun powder

18:32

hibernate if it saves me from the first or second

18:34

sentries a day when it when

18:37

they're at their most professional

18:39

i think that they are likely to

18:41

win simply because they have the

18:43

mass infrastructure of this

18:45

vast empire behind them and

18:48

that empire essentially that

18:50

that empire is conquered by the legions

18:53

but it comes to exist purely to keep the

18:55

legions going so

18:57

you could describe the roman empire almost as

18:59

a series of military bases

19:02

are , a with an app with with the tax base attached

19:05

bus stops essentially how

19:07

the roman empire funk said that when you have vast amount

19:10

of money that amount of professionalism basically

19:12

anyone you meet is likely to be defeated

19:15

and even when are in are drive

19:17

roman army do lose they do get defeated

19:20

they always come back it's

19:22

it's an absolute premise of

19:24

of raymond military doctrine that i'm

19:27

the ravens never lose them even

19:29

if the germans wipeouts of armies or that the today

19:31

and swipe at some hobbies the romans will come

19:34

back and they will inflict devastating punishment

19:36

and

19:38

nobody basically can withstand them and that includes

19:40

the parthian you

19:42

know of apart from terror i basically the that

19:45

the ravens can always have the ravens

19:47

know that they always have the beating of the parthian four

19:49

elements me could make the case good

19:51

one make the case though the kerry who was it was bad

19:54

generalship to i mean there was some

19:56

yeah because our enemy to interrupt yeah dominic's yeah

19:58

no no go ahead i was going to they are

20:00

the what i'm saying i'm i completely

20:02

agree with some spleen i think

20:04

military successes

20:07

it's often the question of technology and political

20:09

organization and i'm

20:12

i think we tend to because we emphasize

20:14

so often generals and battles

20:17

we lose sight of the father tom father tom

20:19

infrastructure not the infrastructure is absolutely

20:21

key is a is a brilliant book by the second

20:24

world war by guy and american his based in

20:26

britain could phillips school phillips pace

20:29

know brian and he

20:31

basically argues that in the sec more board

20:33

the until the battles completely irrelevant and

20:35

our story talking about the battles to missing

20:39

why the allies one which is all about logistics

20:41

infrastructure and some

20:44

and i think you're anybody i tons of

20:46

your listeners i imagine we'll have played peter strategy

20:48

games where you know ss

20:50

you know that if you've got the if the spreadsheet

20:52

is is working and you've got all

20:55

your resources and you got your logistics will sorted

20:57

out that anyway it doesn't matter if you lose a couple

20:59

of battles because you can there you can recover

21:02

from that my think actually roman

21:04

roman political organization let's say

21:08

so robust so resilience our sex

21:10

and so efficient that it was

21:12

just infinitely better wasn't it's hum than

21:14

the organization has gone western european

21:16

medieval kingdoms much more sophisticated

21:19

as much more reliable tax

21:21

base you know sitters

21:24

it's as it as seasons it's it's as

21:26

professional as of yet clear specialists and

21:28

and and throw some bloke you know why one

21:30

who spends his time kind of else you know

21:32

molesting the daughters of the local peasants

21:35

and then once every now and again is called on to

21:37

fight the french to the english or whoever might be

21:39

of course he spent all this time the summer but

21:42

that's not the same as somebody who spent his life

21:44

in roman a military bases tom

21:46

says he had such a open on the roads practicing

21:49

training being drilled in

21:51

, think this and they fought yeah alice the trailer

21:53

grill for sure being forced into a single

21:55

unit and and that's why really

21:58

yeah it's yeah it's only when states and

22:00

europe hop able to raise sufficient

22:02

taxes again to keep professional

22:04

arm yeah and therefore to have them

22:07

drilled and that and and to operate as entities

22:09

that you start to get anything approximating

22:12

to the are the perfect exactly and that's

22:14

why that you don't get the drill and all that stuff

22:16

without the political organization so

22:18

what i would say i'm sure tumor degree is that

22:21

the

22:22

the roman empire

22:23

hi to the roman system at it's height

22:26

represents a kind of apogee of organization

22:28

and then is a long period of fragmentation

22:31

and then i guess we'll just hit on the early modern period

22:33

you get organized european states

22:36

organizing out raising taxes and

22:38

at at comparable to that so

22:40

that's why napoleon for example

22:43

who is able to draw on the pair of nationalism

22:45

in the way the people hadn't really so

22:49

powerfully , that that's why napoleon

22:52

undoubtedly would have given the romans very a

22:54

good run for their money and way the i don't think

22:56

you know all of a cromwell's army

22:58

army much as much as as excited as they would

23:01

have been about reading their bibles their

23:03

and i i don't think they've don't of the

23:07

i think i think also to talking about napoleon

23:09

and also thinking about the the army's

23:11

in the the civil war z

23:14

up the idea of citizen citizen

23:16

armies that's also a crucial part

23:18

of of the way that legions are organized really

23:20

lucky i've allegiance is lit with

23:22

literally a levy if it's it's it's

23:25

the raymond people in arms i'm

23:27

an in time as you know the

23:29

empire gets larger larger you need more and

23:32

more like a own a small more legions i'm

23:35

that that sense slightly starts to diminish

23:37

but he but but it's say in the first

23:39

century a d the roman republic has collapsed

23:42

but if you want a microcosm of

23:44

rome as it was in the republic this idea

23:46

of a kind of a body of men who

23:49

are ah the strength

23:51

lies in that can hear it's in that discipline

23:53

that discipline sense of conrad ship you day to

23:55

lead to rebates to find that you wouldn't date rape

23:58

and that sense of a kind of

24:01

a marshal civic identity

24:03

is what

24:05

the french revolutionary army

24:07

the napoleonic armies see

24:10

the , in the american civil war and

24:12

then the the citizen armies in

24:15

the first world war that's what makes them is

24:17

also crucial part of what makes them so lethal

24:20

well it's interesting because you would think

24:22

you would think that if the romans were

24:24

beating you all the time that you

24:27

would simply try to copy what they

24:29

did right we all know that phalanx

24:31

is spread across the ancient

24:33

world once that became a popular way of

24:35

war and we know that there were

24:38

things like imitation legionaries

24:41

are they were created once the roman started

24:43

to show that the the roman way

24:45

of war was so dominant but

24:47

it never quite lived up

24:49

to the original and it reminded

24:52

me of on for example the

24:54

the the early history of modern

24:56

battleships were certain countries

24:59

could produce battleships and other countries

25:01

would buy battleships from countries

25:03

who could make them because this was going to be

25:05

the equivalent of their roman legionaries billionaire

25:08

battleship you couldn't compete and these

25:11

states that couldn't build their own

25:13

never quite seem to rise to

25:15

the level of the states that good why do you

25:17

think that certain kinds of military

25:19

technologies are transferable and

25:22

other kinds of military technologies

25:24

aren't is it because they're wedded to the

25:26

society or the system or i

25:29

mean somebody like victor davis hands and back in

25:31

the day would have said it's a cultural question

25:33

you know the western way of war and all

25:35

this any thoughts on why certain

25:37

kinds of military technology aren't traveling

25:39

barbed wires transferable roman

25:41

legionaries seems to not be a

25:43

step cavalry and or mongol

25:45

han er skipped the and cavalry

25:48

not really transferable any thoughts on that

25:50

was sort of the answer is the barbed wire transfer

25:52

will because bob was just a very simple

25:55

you , it's very

25:57

simple things advice

26:00

the room and legionaries a political and cultural

26:02

construct and you can't just

26:05

it's a bit like i would say trying

26:07

to copy of aroma leisurely

26:09

own d the kind of let's say an early twentieth

26:11

century dreadnought or something it's

26:14

a bit like thinking even transplants

26:16

of months as it to another his life thinking

26:18

he's just picked up in any given part of the weldon

26:21

implement them in a western style democracy

26:24

or something because these things are not they're

26:27

not suitors i would say they're not accessories

26:30

that you pick up with the shopping mall they

26:32

are and am an expression reflection

26:35

of a political and cultural sort of

26:37

says of says of of landscape say

26:39

that sends out completely of it too it

26:42

was thinking today muslims as yeah yeah

26:44

i'd out a completely agree that us in the was

26:46

a west where was obviously rooted in

26:48

western in the let's say by

26:51

, twentieth century western democratic

26:53

industrial civilization he conscious transplant

26:56

plants something as complicated

26:59

as battleship only to lisa marie from

27:01

one setting to another was barbed wire which

27:03

is well as be simple you

27:05

can what do you think some i ,

27:08

i mean if if you're technologically advanced

27:10

civilization then you're going to have

27:12

more lethal weaponry i mean it's that

27:14

that's always the way we you talked about computer games

27:17

if you play something like civilization where

27:19

you start off with a band of hunter gatherers

27:21

and then you end up flying to have sent all right

27:23

that be note you know that to

27:25

war with a phalanx against a squadron

27:27

of tanks you you're going ,

27:30

be flattened or i think that if

27:32

we can we can see that actually playing

27:35

out playing front of our eyes of moment in ukraine

27:37

where

27:40

the russian armed forces

27:42

had had the kit

27:44

that because a lot of that kit

27:46

the right from western

27:48

sources now

27:51

that they are subject to sanctions

27:53

their ability to source that kid is

27:55

diminishing the more it diminishes

27:58

say they have to try to start shopping around iran

28:00

or wherever to try and find the drains whatever

28:02

that they need our and you realize

28:04

the degree to which

28:07

military proficiency is a reflection of

28:11

industrial proficiency technological

28:13

proficiency i'm i'm

28:16

that's why the west is always be the head of the game for

28:18

so long is that you

28:20

know since he does revolution least maybe before

28:22

that it's always been the

28:24

cutting edge and perhaps they

28:26

wanna be unsettling things if you're in the west at the moment

28:28

is nation that that perhaps that

28:30

age is fading not with russia but with china okay

28:33

you guys bring up now first tangent of the program

28:36

here to you bring up something that i find fascinating

28:39

i remember on as

28:41

a kid we were war gaming and we

28:43

we would talk about the the nineteen seventy

28:45

three or conflicts in the

28:47

middle east and this idea at the time

28:49

and you folks are certainly studied this that

28:51

this that that it's that the that the hand

28:54

held weapons of infantry

28:56

we're going to make tanks obsolete and that

28:58

you could already see that i'm

29:00

being foreshadowed in the seventy three

29:02

war well of course you know tanks

29:04

sort of made a comeback and the the long

29:06

struggle between offense and defense

29:08

that you can see going back to armor

29:11

and all those kinds of things in the middle ages came

29:13

into play and tanks sort of got a second lease on

29:16

life if you guys had to guess

29:18

are we seeing the the predictions

29:20

of seventy three finally coming

29:23

true now with ukraine and drones

29:25

and and better hand held weapons

29:27

that are anti tank weapons or is this gonna

29:29

be another case of of a premature

29:32

a premature writing off of of

29:34

armor i've seen

29:36

lots stuff and i'm debating on

29:38

social media about the stamp the

29:42

arguments that sir i think there

29:44

are lots of people who were over praising the russians before

29:46

the war started to work great

29:48

zoos espa tanks and said on the russians i hear

29:51

that brute force is unparalleled analysts sort

29:53

of thing and then there was always sort of amateur

29:55

footage of the ukrainians with kind you

29:58

know i'm it's sort of stuff it fills

30:00

in the kitchen say have to thank the or whatever

30:02

cool if you ask miss tractors space

30:05

exactly so either know i'm in

30:07

the death of the tank has been predicted many times

30:09

has no since the invention of signed consent of

30:11

sign skeptic seat on the site was was

30:14

invented i would guess

30:17

that tanks it

30:19

feels to me such a twentieth century

30:22

weapon of war fan i would guess that in

30:24

a world of drones and of and held you

30:26

know antitank

30:28

some launches or whatever

30:31

i i would guess that and twenty

30:33

fifty will tanks place at apart

30:35

as they do now i would i would

30:37

think not i

30:40

don't know and i don't envy defense

30:43

secretary at the moment

30:44

having having to side

30:46

has side has and dice their defense budget

30:49

there knowing that i'm a

30:51

wrong pumped

30:52

you might be stuck with completely obsolete equipment

30:57

that brings the pentagon tommy wouldn't

30:59

vested tanks which if you're the few of

31:01

if you have the if it if i'm the pentagon i can afford

31:04

to either let him i don't

31:06

i'm good how about it out we have plenty to

31:08

access but but that but that then brings

31:10

the question from the land warfare

31:12

element to the naval warfare elements

31:15

could one say the same above surface vessels

31:17

i mean we're talking about big slow large

31:19

torres arm what is this about

31:21

that while , guess we'll have to wait

31:23

for the chinese with i know the straits of taiwan

31:26

moment doesn't do or or

31:28

and i've written of the worst people to ask

31:30

such as we have a fool's a

31:33

because we still have the very strongly

31:35

the romance the royal navy send the nineteen

31:38

eighties which is really my period britain

31:41

was very close to bases scrapping my school navy

31:44

and then my school war happened the we ended up keeping

31:46

far more that them with plan to and

31:48

that was sorts of slightly i mean if if people from the

31:50

royal navy listen to this of people to

31:52

hear this but we kind of stuck with it

31:55

and it's a bit of an albatross because we're very unlikely to

31:57

use it in the weeds away the

31:59

we you've got to huge aircraft carriers

32:02

the i don't think we can actually afford to send to see

32:04

because we don't have the the

32:06

necessary for

32:08

tele that these aircraft

32:10

carriers from being attacked by kind of underwater missiles

32:13

or whatever and however however

32:16

we have to aircraft carriers the french

32:18

have one yeah very important

32:21

that we should not have taken by the french essentially

32:23

that is justification enough what

32:25

but you guys bring up now an interesting point and and

32:27

in the i think it applies to the tank question too

32:29

so if i say to american military

32:32

people that the tanks are obsolete

32:35

and you can see that this lessons being taught being ukraine

32:37

et cetera et cetera one can make can make same thing

32:39

may be about about surface vessels on on the

32:41

on the high seas they will counter

32:44

with the line that this is a system

32:47

not a weapon and that that the system

32:49

requires things like infantry

32:51

that would fan out in on either side

32:53

of of the armored columns to prevent people

32:55

from being able to get close enough to use hand

32:58

held weapons are they would say that that

33:00

in in order to prevent for example

33:02

your aircraft carriers being destroyed by

33:05

in a surface to surface anti ship missiles

33:07

that there's an entire system involved yeah for

33:09

you to pick it ships and everything else could

33:11

one make the case that some of this is

33:13

poor handling of the entire system

33:16

rather than criticism of an individual

33:18

weapon dan

33:20

i don't in any way wants to imply that

33:22

i am in the anyway a military expert

33:24

an old about how are treated as roller

33:27

they are you gonna be snow was rather terrorism

33:29

that yeah so what about but when it when it comes

33:31

to the i states it does seem that there is

33:34

a problem

33:37

which is but essentially

33:39

the u s preparing to kinds of war

33:42

the first the war kind of or that they've been fighting

33:45

over the past thirty years so

33:47

the nine eleven wars in afghanistan

33:49

and iraq whatever were

33:52

all kinds of the of the kit

33:54

that you've got is essentially useless because

33:57

the people that you're fighting the enemy is

33:59

all though asymmetrical that

34:01

in a way you have to invest all your money in

34:04

intelligence counterinsurgency and all that

34:06

kind of stuff i'm yes i listened to vietnam the

34:08

other is of course the that the

34:10

us is preparing for super pac conflict first

34:12

with the soviet union and now space with china i'm

34:15

at and again the prospect of that

34:17

is so horrendous that you know the exchange

34:20

of a few nuclear missiles would again

34:22

render all the tanks and

34:25

the assets the aircraft carriers as they were useless

34:27

nevertheless the

34:30

us is the number one superpower and

34:33

the number one who power because it has the most efficient

34:35

military to in a way it's a kind of batch

34:38

of superpower status but it seems to me

34:40

a patch that you can never really use

34:43

you can never bring to bear with the full

34:45

intensity perhaps that you know

34:47

in a in a kind of i dreamed campaign you

34:49

would because you'll never get to be fighting those kind against

34:52

a vast time com is crashing in the

34:54

in the planes of china

34:56

the

34:57

right now it's been such a sensitive

35:00

when they can easily tanks and in a know and

35:02

and there was a kind of brief upsurge

35:05

, dread i suppose that maybe this is what we faced

35:07

in europe that tanks sort

35:09

of russian tanks which would them drive across

35:11

ukrainian plane and then perhaps into poland

35:14

or in own who needs where they might stop

35:16

but i think that i that that now is looking

35:19

holly highly improbable as well

35:22

well which brings us to one of the reasons

35:24

that it's fairly improbable when

35:26

i would say nuclear weapons come into play

35:28

and i've had been having discussions with people about

35:31

this lately and i find it appalling

35:34

the the willingness you know when when

35:36

we were all with were all from a generation

35:39

where were thinking about nuclear

35:41

weapons was something that was on our minds

35:43

immensely more often and

35:46

more deeply than it's on anyone's mind what

35:48

maybe maybe it's changed in the past year but

35:50

but two years ago three years ago i

35:52

would find our and appalling lack of

35:54

less quote respect maybe

35:57

for what these weapons can do on

36:00

if it and i had written this down

36:02

to to put potentially talk about but

36:04

if we could imagine what

36:06

a nuclear bomb or

36:09

missile being used today filmed

36:11

with i phones you

36:13

know from on the ground in

36:16

full living color with sound

36:18

what this really meant i

36:20

feel like it might be the kind of thing where

36:23

you would you would you would fully understand me

36:25

i mean let's put this had this had never use nuclear

36:27

weapons in the second world war comic bomb doesn't get

36:30

dropped on hiroshima and we have nuclear

36:32

weapons but we've never seen what they had done

36:34

i would imagine it would be much more likely

36:36

that they would be used had nuclear weapons

36:39

been used after the second

36:41

world war may be less to see twenty years

36:43

afterwards do you think that would be something

36:45

that would prevent or or or

36:48

inhibit their use more than this

36:50

is weird would have to phrases question i'm

36:52

i'm trying to figure out maybe the value

36:54

of having an object lesson

36:57

versus the theoretical idea

37:00

of a we have these turbo weapons and they'll do terrible things

37:02

but you can't even imagine what that might mean

37:04

there's a wonderful and i'm sure you guys have seen something

37:07

like this there's a wonderful thing online where

37:09

you can see how far the

37:11

blast radius of a of a big

37:13

nuclear weapon i think it's it's paris

37:16

or something that the user maybe you could you could

37:18

choose the city and you can see exactly

37:20

how far the damages do you think when

37:22

we're talking about unimaginable weapons

37:24

like this that they almost lose

37:26

their ability to deter because we can't even

37:28

imagine what we're talking about here that so dumb

37:30

you basically implying that hiroshima

37:32

and nagasaki too far distance

37:35

to serve as obsolescence now i

37:39

were here's what i would suggest i would suggest that

37:41

if you look and and i know you guys

37:43

probably done this to if you look at the example

37:46

there are so few i mean you

37:49

know as a former television news reporters they used

37:51

to teach you the value of pictures

37:54

and sound and stuff like that the

37:57

have black and white photos the

38:00

tiny little things that we have imagined

38:02

that imagine if we had i phones at

38:04

hiroshima and nagasaki and

38:06

the different levels of intensity that

38:08

something like that would have on our on our

38:10

collective psyche vs and

38:13

also let's be honest if you're second world war

38:17

what the were looking for a aficionado

38:19

with sound so strange to say your second were war but

38:21

for some but i mean he there's so

38:23

much violence and so much disaster

38:25

from the strategic bombing campaigns and everything else

38:28

that it all sort of blends together but had there

38:30

been a nuclear weapon used

38:32

in nineteen fifty eight for example

38:34

with color photos and i

38:36

feel like the object i mean some

38:38

was like was generation has to almost learn

38:41

these things over and over are we forget

38:43

them on i don't

38:45

know that here's a question their gentleman business

38:47

pick up from like thirty two different

38:49

issues best one is a fear of nuclear weapons

38:53

but the other one which

38:55

i don't think the question or asking but i think is

38:57

just as interesting actually is

38:59

about the way in which is

39:01

a society we

39:04

regard moving color

39:06

images as so close to us so

39:08

we say look at the beatles and the

39:10

peter jackson documents they looked just like us

39:12

yes they give us and then we look

39:14

at people from the sec my wall me sake yeah they

39:16

look ridiculous that wearing or fashion

39:19

close the moving jerk li in the

39:21

past back my footage and so on and i

39:23

do think your apps a ride the black and white

39:25

footage and black and white still the

39:27

actors aren't to the kind of barrier

39:30

to our empathy maybe because

39:32

we just think old people from history so

39:35

they don't kind accounts and the same way that the people

39:37

do

39:38

now having said that

39:39

the good sense you did the right to real

39:42

point i think in away your question

39:44

this is too kind

39:47

to him and feature because you're

39:49

basically saying if we had incredibly picture

39:51

perfect imagery oh

39:54

you know the effects of a nuclear bomb we

39:56

would learn will be chastened would be horrified

39:59

and we

39:59

you meant our ways

40:02

and some way but you know we have

40:04

we had in color image

40:06

read of the effects of bombing in

40:09

vietnam let's say or

40:11

or or so many wars since then so many

40:13

atrocities and human beings

40:15

haven't changed people's carried on fighting

40:17

wars and disgracing themselves

40:19

and various ways so i don't actually

40:21

think even if it was in color

40:23

even if it was so vivid and palpable vivid

40:26

don't think we would change hi

40:29

i mean i think

40:31

that say

40:34

i dunno

40:36

america and china and

40:39

russia each had ten nuclear

40:41

the house

40:42

the hood is that they would use

40:44

them because it wouldn't mean the end of

40:47

of of them as countries and it wouldn't mean the end

40:49

of human civilization the reason

40:51

that that we were all

40:53

terrified of nuclear war and we lifted

40:55

that shadow was that it it

40:58

wasn't because we we'd seen

41:00

the the horror affected on hiroshima i

41:02

mean just as much harder i was inflicted on dresden

41:04

or hamburg will tokyo or whatever and

41:08

it was the knowledge that human

41:12

civilization would be destroyed or perhaps life on

41:14

earth would be destroyed

41:16

the

41:17

that that's hardcore a scientific

41:19

knowledge within played

41:22

a pawn hi filmmakers

41:24

and science fiction writers in

41:27

ways that because

41:30

it was rooted in reality certainly

41:32

gave me nightmares and i think gave gave

41:34

an entire generation might mess so

41:36

you have the day after the rights that you have had of we

41:38

had a series in britain core threads on

41:42

the the of this was terrifying and i remember

41:44

of of a aside still

41:47

have exactly the kind that you are describing that that

41:49

the seemed around what would happen if a nuclear bomb went

41:51

off a to st paul's and i must

41:54

have been about ten when this winter and i still remember

41:56

that they wanted to say what the impact of flying

41:58

glass would be and they put a

42:00

pumpkin all a stick and

42:03

, smashed the sub the flying glass

42:05

of that the pumpkin was completely lacerated

42:07

couldn't sleep after that so for weeks

42:09

and weeks and weeks and then at the end

42:11

of threats the i'm which

42:13

tells the story of a of of a nuclear

42:16

war that destroys britain it showed

42:18

the harrowing the women who we'd been following she

42:20

gets raped and she gives birth

42:23

to a child and the last still it's

42:25

looking down to see what he's born and she's screaming

42:27

with horror and that was the same day that the

42:29

the film and stuff but actually be stays

42:32

with me and it means that the very notion

42:34

of of nuclear war is a shadow

42:36

that hangs over me to this day i

42:38

think that the interesting contrast is say with

42:41

say global warming climate

42:43

change which is often

42:45

, as the equivalent challenge facing

42:48

the people the generations younger than ours

42:51

the problem with that his first

42:53

day that science is less that's

42:56

illegal he grabbed it

42:57

and secondly that you called

42:59

sum it up with a kind of image of you

43:01

know a pumpkin been smashed to pieces by glass

43:03

or a pregnant woman looking down and a

43:06

and seeing that she's given birth to some monstrosity

43:08

it is it doesn't

43:10

the end itself the images about horace

43:12

even though in the long run i

43:15

don't know i'm not climate scientists fled the

43:17

results may be may

43:19

be analogous so i i

43:23

think the when he said that we we need to kind of reeducate

43:25

ourselves about nuclear nuclear weapons i

43:28

think you're right because essentially for

43:30

lot of thirty years now

43:33

the world has been able to see that it won't happen

43:35

and passive what happened with

43:37

ukraine and passive what is

43:39

a kind is he notes that the first

43:42

onset of the be grade with taiwan the

43:45

possibility that we might be plans back into

43:47

the kind of scenario is that gave rise to those

43:49

they terrify so said which is

43:51

the interesting voice on the that those films

43:54

i mean their about us the

43:57

victims i and i think was

43:59

held what the world back so

44:01

i think that's an excellent points about the if they

44:03

didn't have a few nuclear weapons that he used them and

44:06

i think the reason is because what did heard

44:08

nuclear war was not

44:10

fear the inflicting

44:13

terrible how i feel atrocities

44:15

and damage boost fear of in current

44:17

have to us yeah what happened to us it

44:20

was a if i would

44:22

say human history says that if people up

44:24

a presented with an opportunity to inflict

44:27

horrendous horror

44:29

on

44:30

their competitors they will buy

44:32

lots take that's the fear of incurring

44:34

map that is that is held

44:37

on the held the sea bass back in the cold war

44:39

let me borrow in a it will be thrown angle in there

44:41

too that makes his job but if not unique

44:43

than very unusual the military history

44:46

military history don't have to be a belligerent the

44:48

be a victim the nuclear conflict

44:50

right in other words if you're india

44:53

and you're gonna be a you're not going to

44:55

be involved in this war for example it

44:57

doesn't matter in a full on nuclear exchange

45:00

people in india are going to suffer else states

45:02

is it's almost like all of a sudden real

45:05

war total war as as as

45:07

if we used to call it is something that that

45:09

involves every one now and and

45:11

so so i mean it hits it's a fascinating

45:13

way of looking at at something that's been a human

45:16

construct and civilization first arose

45:18

right i'm gonna fight you but now if

45:20

i fight you make

45:22

maybe you could say that say that that person right

45:24

over the borders going to be affected because we are refugees

45:27

right stream over the border but now

45:29

this is are you going to be involving everyone

45:31

in your personal arm in

45:34

your personal sort of conflict in a

45:36

way that i mean there is no neutrals

45:39

right with movies i remember i'm i

45:41

remember reading about and years ago but i mean

45:43

that polluted milk in scandinavia

45:46

from radiation that i mean that

45:48

you start to realize okay all of a sudden if

45:50

we want to use all the weapons that are in our arsenal

45:53

i'm it's going to involve people

45:55

that are not part of the conflict at all

45:58

or what did bertrand russell say he's a

46:00

talked about that it was unreasonable

46:02

for man to expect to walk

46:04

a tightrope walk a tightrope for certain

46:06

rate is high but it was unreasonable to expect you to be

46:08

able to do it forever and i feel like

46:10

i'm to to piggyback of armor thomas

46:12

said we've , forgotten that

46:14

were walking on that tight rope and

46:17

it's it it takes something like i have a

46:19

ukraine and nuclear powers

46:21

are being angry with each other to

46:23

potentially remind us that we're still on

46:25

that tight rope and is just as dangerous as

46:27

as dangerous been if not more well

46:29

i i mean i think that obviously

46:32

having your city

46:34

the whole horizon

46:36

it is a smart ahora but

46:38

a deep ahora is to imagine that is permanently

46:40

poison

46:41

that

46:42

you haven't chernobyl he says it's happen

46:45

decades and decades ago but people getting in there now

46:47

and the war and that that they're dying for

46:49

going there and the idea that the whole world

46:51

would be poisoned in that way i

46:53

think adds a an extra dimension of terror

46:56

and then in the eighties scientists

46:59

in the soviet union and then

47:01

the west combined are

47:03

on a paper to argue of of

47:05

of what was called a nuclear winter the idea

47:08

that so much debris would be

47:10

thrown up that the sun would be blocked it

47:12

out and , even

47:14

if ah in it radioactivity

47:17

weren't completely lethal to life on earth

47:20

sunlight would sunlight without some cops

47:22

would die and people would starve to death and

47:24

and the whole world with starve to death and i remember

47:26

that they the scientists that

47:29

presented that paper they

47:31

chose a poem by byron and

47:33

, translation of it by pushkin to put at

47:35

the head of the paper and pirates pope

47:37

he races in of h and sixteen

47:39

which was the year without a summer the

47:41

same year that that rise to

47:44

at to frankenstein story front mary shelley's another

47:46

frank it's not a big volcano in that year right

47:48

that's right we'll see ever for i think and it it

47:51

it kind of speed it up and on said the sun was

47:53

blocked it out and ,

47:55

she was the last time of mass feminine and europe

47:59

the in byron's

48:01

image the whole everything just goes dark

48:04

and the theme of it is that

48:07

no one is responsible they were to blame

48:09

for it it's just the curse that happens and

48:11

the last thing is is to people discover

48:13

some would they set like to it they realize

48:15

i hate each other they kill each other and that's

48:18

that's what irritates of which aired

48:20

once in arms and we do know it or

48:22

adjusting the though is that some these kind of things

48:25

did have an effect on policymakers so

48:27

we know for example the wrong reagan was

48:30

really into didn't think that the day after he was

48:32

strongly affected by them he was personally

48:34

had was horror of nuclear weapons i'm in the

48:36

irony is that all the time in his critics

48:38

for such calling him calling gun toting cowboy

48:41

and stuff he was poised start world war

48:43

three but we know we that

48:45

reagan read a lot of the stuff that he was

48:47

released in the day after the

48:50

and profoundly affected by over

48:52

there so irresponsible these

48:55

these i guess that that bears

48:57

are your point done that these reminders

49:00

if he'll i was a be scientific reminders or

49:02

of or fictional and a science fictional reminders

49:05

they mattson during the cold war and

49:07

they they helped to instill

49:09

i guess you would say kind of responsibility in the

49:11

strength let me play for people who

49:13

maybe don't know what we're talking about world nut

49:15

remember the day after was a movie

49:17

right the day after a middle my and eighty

49:19

the came out in the day after was a dramatization

49:22

of what would happen in a nuclear war

49:24

and the story is and i'm not sure it's true but

49:27

i've read it on some in several different memoirs

49:29

was that ronald reagan used to have movies

49:31

screened in the white house and they scream this

49:34

movie for him and he was profoundly

49:36

affected by it and away look

49:38

this is a man who studied and you know the

49:40

abbey sixty should have understood without

49:43

having to see the movie but the movie

49:45

made all the difference and it and

49:47

supposedly the story is that this led to

49:49

him taking on or mikhail gorbachev

49:52

aside for a private conversation during

49:54

a summit which led to all i mean

49:56

one could argue that there are a lot of dominoes

49:59

starting the tumble right then

50:01

the created a lot of the world we live in right

50:03

now and and when that be amazing if you

50:05

were the film maker that made the day after

50:08

you could somehow tied your if your

50:10

artistic decisions into something

50:13

as you're on your mental that that and

50:15

is another element that which is that some ah

50:18

, of your your may

50:20

know about the able archer oh yes

50:23

the near miss yeah the near miss

50:25

so when so this is of

50:27

it there was a nato war game nothing

50:30

was nothing the low countries and

50:32

the kremlin were very words this were

50:34

very the proceed to war because their own ballgames

50:37

envisaged that nato would strike

50:39

during a war game so they

50:41

say you know they go on the terrible sort of

50:43

states about it things

50:46

are really good yes ski hum the

50:48

the man who say i'm world right right it

50:51

passes that a process the story

50:53

to his british handlers and they finds

50:55

his way to the white house

50:57

and when reagan the heard this

50:59

he was really struck

51:02

and astonished because cause up to that point regular thoughts

51:04

disobedience as the evil empire he

51:06

thought you know these guys of the villains are out psychiatrists

51:09

nether portal of them upgrade the great conspiracy

51:12

if is of international communism and

51:15

them for them say if he he sort of

51:17

as he fights it in his diary ones journalists

51:19

and leaves the first time first thinks

51:22

that is frightened old man they

51:24

an ak stunned by the idea

51:26

that they think the west would strike

51:29

them first and ,

51:31

i think it's such an interesting year

51:33

he didn't never occurred to him before that

51:36

the russians are is fry since

51:38

have been nuked by him as

51:40

he was by them because to

51:42

be afraid of nuclear war you got to think that someone

51:45

who has his finger on the next to boston would press

51:47

it and that requires

51:50

you to think quite dark thoughts about

51:53

people who may be your enemies and

51:55

i think the people base in the west and

51:57

in the soviet union to think that about their adversary

51:59

i'm in i was dominic says that

52:02

is a with was a crucial part

52:04

in opening reagan to the nation that perhaps

52:07

the evil empire wasn't so evil but

52:10

evil also think that think that one of the reasons why people

52:12

say was settled by what's happening in ukraine

52:14

now is that to am pt

52:18

has the look of doctor evil about him he

52:22

he has he has the kind of see no

52:24

first you they were of a supervillain

52:26

a supervillain kind of film where

52:29

the villain is threatening the world with new

52:31

club out mail and the fact that

52:33

in a russian propaganda has made play

52:35

with that as kind of hinted at devastating

52:38

responses kind of breaks the tapping

52:40

because actually even

52:43

in the video of the idea that you would threaten

52:45

first use

52:48

something that both sides i think that is that right dominic

52:50

avoided

52:51

during the as we both sides on how many what later

52:53

i mean either side was doing that of

52:55

course some insight difference isn't that because pizza

52:57

presumably talking about taxes go

53:00

the field nuclear weapons so he's not

53:02

talking about incinerating although he'll

53:04

t v his tv networks you know

53:06

they will that will that they rarely the

53:08

admins as dot this has got huge i played down

53:10

in britain because they the i'd

53:12

advise our fascination of did hear about how

53:15

the russians actually rather like the iranians

53:17

they they take the attitude that britain is

53:19

the real villain the and it goes back

53:21

to the nineteenth century soy shared or the great

53:23

game and all that the great game that britain

53:25

is the real villain an uncle sam is the sources

53:28

rich naive

53:31

that of cat's paw for

53:33

the british royal family the bank of england and the other

53:36

sinister conspirators were really plotting

53:38

to destroy russia

53:40

or whatever and so there's that we we

53:42

are about yeah right it's and so they

53:45

say it's rice their

53:47

images are me they have say so again

53:49

and again images of nuclear weapons destroying

53:51

britain when they summoned so that

53:53

a protest from the iris on

53:55

foreign ministry

53:56

because the those missiles also said i'm playing

53:58

of ireland for the haven't

53:59

i didn't do that but the had a classic

54:02

british or the classic

54:03

upon helen thing where they were going to detonation a

54:05

nuclear missile in the north and the atlantic

54:08

and a said i'm he would wash over both

54:10

britain and ireland yeah was

54:12

his years ago guys is that is that all it would take

54:15

was for someone like

54:18

vladimir putin to get to use a nuclear

54:20

weapon in and out of the way place in

54:22

the middle of nowhere blow up some factory

54:25

out of and the taboo

54:27

would be broken and i mean i

54:29

believe that are you know when we talk about

54:31

needing a reminder and we were talking about how long

54:33

it's been since he's weapons were used there's

54:35

this sense that okay will no one would really

54:38

use one and i think something like that

54:40

would would you know i don't mean to to put

54:42

ideas into someone's head but certainly the ideas

54:45

are already there something like that would be

54:47

a game changer because it would literally be

54:49

the way of saying you think this

54:51

could never happen we're going to show

54:53

you that were serious you know is it it's funny because

54:55

after the soviet union fell the

54:57

you'd mentioned able archer but i mean that the

55:00

last time we almost had a disaster

55:03

was during the boris yeltsin era

55:05

where there was a mistake right where

55:07

somebody had miss miss under miss red raiders

55:09

or something and you turn around you go okay when

55:12

i was i don't know it a television

55:14

news guy in my twenties that's how

55:16

we thought a nuclear war might happen right no one

55:18

would obviously goat go and

55:20

and declares the third world war but

55:22

these things i mean there's a great book called the dead

55:25

hand which is about the the

55:28

the soviet system that was

55:30

in place in case their entire

55:32

command and control structure were wiped out

55:34

a could still launcher a retaliatory

55:37

strike on and i think during the yeltsin

55:39

era we thought okay the only way this is going to happen now

55:41

is is because of a mistake and

55:43

now we're back where we were forty

55:46

years ago where you could actually envision

55:48

someone like put and saying okay i'm using nuclear

55:50

weapon in the middle of nowhere just to show everybody

55:52

that they're out there we can use them and you're not safe

55:55

from but but will i

55:57

be to be positive to just to be

55:59

terry having said that better

56:01

you know how me a bit of allowed to a bit of a downer

56:03

ebony has he he he's hinted

56:06

at that and that this is katie what he's brilliant at

56:08

is making people's less creep

56:10

and menaces it's

56:14

mafia type ah intimidation

56:16

of

56:18

proponents or whatever i mean that's the he's

56:20

very very british as shop owners is

56:22

that what it is the nation wide or says that

56:24

will retire well tie a three way i mean

56:26

he's cut you know be awful if if he did something

56:28

and i have to either

56:30

there and it out something terrible in response without actually

56:32

saying what the topic nice country that i have

56:34

your be a shame is something happened i really have

56:36

x yeah exactly it's but but i see

56:38

that the have been a kind of number of dogs that

56:40

have about in the light so obviously

56:42

the use for tactical nukes a missile

56:44

battlefield newcomers all is one of them

56:47

but also i'm also i'm know whether this is because

56:50

ah cybersecurity so good or

56:52

because actually russian

56:54

cyber attacks aren't as good as as we thought

56:57

they were but the has some of the haven't been kind of

56:59

devastating attacks on

57:01

the

57:03

fiber infrastructure

57:05

he thought that perhaps

57:06

that might be buried in a certain

57:08

it kind of the defense institutions whatever

57:11

are and that

57:12

is is a kind of that the raft

57:15

of hope that i cling to deserve a story

57:17

elements of samples from

57:20

i guess i guess you could say they done that succeed

57:22

not resort

57:24

that is out of incompetence chaos

57:27

that mistakes yes i made an accident

57:29

happen to us president see that two ways

57:31

you wouldn't need he was stopped because a

57:33

doctor evil thinks is in their

57:35

interests all it stop because people are in a

57:37

complete mess are frightened everything's

57:40

falling apart there is i mean

57:42

that's that's that's probably the more likely

57:45

snoring was net than than a than a villain

57:47

start to a bond villain dossier buffalo

57:50

i think the implication of the fact that

57:52

these kind of horror options

57:54

haven't been taken out

57:56

i i suspect must

57:59

be because there are

57:59

communication that remained i tweet

58:03

the kremlin and the white house between the pentagon

58:06

the russian military establishment

58:08

and he must have been inflated on

58:10

both sides that they're of red lines beyond what she

58:12

shouldn't

58:13

you guys nobody with endless

58:16

you know that that that that sometimes

58:18

dynamics get ahead of

58:20

decision making and mean that's the whole first

58:22

world war idea that's the cuban missile

58:24

crisis and which brings me back not to change

58:26

subject radically but we called of the series

58:28

that we did on the first world war blueprint for

58:30

armageddon because it was it

58:32

was on as gwen dire the military

58:34

historian had said you know these the entrance into

58:36

the idea of total war that

58:38

makes the second world war possible

58:41

and the kinds of conversations were having now possible

58:43

can i shifted as you guys another question similar

58:46

to the one we did about the romans and and the normans

58:48

and ten sixty six but i want to ask

58:50

you your views on our first

58:52

world war germany vs second world war

58:54

germany and i had made the statement

58:57

once that i thought the relative

58:59

to the other powers involved that the

59:01

first world war german state

59:04

was the stronger or more dangerous

59:06

follow them the second world war one

59:08

now in the united states as a fascination

59:11

with the second world war i'm the

59:13

nazi state the technology is

59:15

enticing in in trans sing and all those

59:17

kinds of things are but it was my position

59:19

that the first world war was the more stable society

59:22

the more deep society with this with the

59:24

stronger foundation you folks have any

59:26

i'm views on that maybe you differ from each other

59:28

i don't know i totally agree

59:30

with you

59:31

i'm so i'm a complete heretic

59:33

on this because as think we discussed when you came

59:35

on apple cause i think britain should force

59:38

on the other side effects ,

59:40

to oxygen real assets which is not

59:42

a view your last the no no have sat

59:44

on the great fan of you know i like at

59:46

the i like a central europeans the and belgians

59:49

were asking for invasions right side

59:51

of this results on scenarios a deal

59:53

with the french once and for only we blew

59:56

anyway this is my think the com i

59:59

think yeah

59:59

i think i would say

1:00:02

i to i agree with you will have mine germany

1:00:05

the

1:00:06

was in many ways that

1:00:08

are an infinitely as you say

1:00:10

deeper more stable more secure

1:00:13

society than the nazi

1:00:15

germany soaps you know if he's the

1:00:17

i am in germany entering the

1:00:19

nineteen tens highly ,

1:00:22

i'm very high level of

1:00:24

political participation very strong

1:00:27

labor unions for example example

1:00:30

it's not obviously

1:00:32

much less democratic than

1:00:34

britain or france as say ah

1:00:37

and i think it's he has think it's

1:00:39

it's in many ways remarkable given

1:00:42

the forces arrayed against it by the end

1:00:44

of nineteen fourteen that

1:00:46

germany fights honest as

1:00:49

long and almost forces a drop in

1:00:51

i could force to draw conceivably and

1:00:53

nineteen seventeen on nineteen eighteen nazi

1:00:56

germany on the other hand it's obviously

1:00:58

led by the somebody

1:01:00

who is descending as the war continues for

1:01:02

deeper and deeper insight into paranoia

1:01:06

is , unstable

1:01:08

doesn't have clear war aims

1:01:11

and everything is being improvised

1:01:14

he knows as they go along it also

1:01:16

has this distraction of it's kind

1:01:18

of anti anti semitic mission

1:01:22

which they mission more more

1:01:25

motivated to accomplish his

1:01:27

the war goes on and hitler's sort of

1:01:30

obsessives anti bolshevism

1:01:32

as well jobs leads him survey the soviet union

1:01:35

i mean so much more it's it's a more word

1:01:38

for dysfunctional more hysterical kind of society

1:01:41

of society would say yeah i did nineteen tens

1:01:43

germany is a much more formidable

1:01:47

proposition is also gods got

1:01:50

i mean the austria hungary is not the great style on

1:01:52

the web and source of the ottoman empire the

1:01:55

here which average briton makes a terrible

1:01:57

mess of fighting a first colourful

1:02:00

so yeah and i think

1:02:02

that the first world war could easily have entered

1:02:04

in a drawer whereas

1:02:07

there's a good argument i would say for the

1:02:09

hill was always college level once

1:02:11

you have not broken out and ninety forty and especially

1:02:14

when see invades serene and then the

1:02:16

class one the united states i

1:02:18

draw is unthinkable from that point onwards point

1:02:21

would say i

1:02:23

completely agree that i will have mine

1:02:25

germany economically

1:02:27

culturally militarily is

1:02:30

so miserably strong i mean it's it's

1:02:33

probably

1:02:35

with the united states vision of the future if

1:02:37

you standing there and and ninety ten

1:02:40

written already hate antiquated incapacity

1:02:42

both countries i'm and

1:02:44

and my germany with it

1:02:46

when it kind of universities we

1:02:49

said it beginning that technology and

1:02:52

ability to innovate is fundamental

1:02:54

to military prowess and power as

1:02:56

in that sense germany is absolutely

1:02:58

cutting edge however i mean obviously

1:03:01

the one thing to say about nazi germany is

1:03:03

that ideas kill ideas well as thanks

1:03:05

and the ideas that

1:03:08

the nazis and body are leisurely

1:03:10

dangerous a way of the

1:03:12

scale compared to any

1:03:14

of the convert to pass in the first world war and

1:03:18

that has to be factored into in

1:03:20

a few i think any any comparison

1:03:23

of the to us of the to germany's that

1:03:27

six million people

1:03:30

were destroyed for ideological reasons by

1:03:33

nazi germany

1:03:34

and that simply wouldn't have happened or

1:03:37

even had at the kaiser one

1:03:39

the first one or nothing comparable to that would have happened i don't

1:03:41

think that's a ,

1:03:44

been a pleasant experience but it was

1:03:47

the name is nothing comparable to being occupied

1:03:50

by the nazis let me see the i think that plays

1:03:52

a role into why the first world war

1:03:54

state was stronger than the second world wars the

1:03:56

you go to the to the cemeteries in the first

1:03:58

where where the german semi and you will

1:04:00

come across the graves of jewish german

1:04:03

patriots who fought for that

1:04:05

regime and you look at the for

1:04:07

example nuclear scientists who defected

1:04:10

from from the nazi german statement

1:04:12

helped the allies these are all people who conceivably

1:04:15

in conceivably less ideological less anti

1:04:17

semitic sort of society would have perhaps

1:04:20

been fighting on the other side as it

1:04:22

doesn't that by it's very nature when you're when

1:04:24

you're taking people who are members

1:04:26

of your populations and populations

1:04:28

mean even at the end of the war when the resources

1:04:30

were resources stray and they're still sending you

1:04:33

know the train cars to the death care

1:04:35

they right absolutely right agree with dominic

1:04:37

that i'm basically

1:04:40

the moment that hitler fails to not britain

1:04:42

ask the war he he's gonna lose the war

1:04:45

i think but , he had not

1:04:47

britain after spicy dogs by britain suppose

1:04:49

he had had

1:04:51

as a kind of empire

1:04:54

a right over empire a europe

1:04:56

and and and britain

1:04:59

the

1:05:00

the in the

1:05:02

impact of that would have been immeasurably

1:05:05

more devastating than the

1:05:08

allies in the first what will be knocked out the

1:05:10

you even see that his policies at when i look

1:05:12

at it and maybe i just lack imagination

1:05:16

i can't imagine that

1:05:18

happening i mean churchill talked about you

1:05:20

know everybody you could always take one with you and

1:05:22

all that but but was a cross

1:05:24

channel invasion and you guys know i mean

1:05:27

i mean it's simply of is a d day and reverse

1:05:29

seems to have been out again

1:05:32

either either think that that there was ever any

1:05:34

prospect of an evasive but i do think there was a prospect

1:05:36

of person suing for terms i

1:05:39

grew up with that's why i think i

1:05:41

think what is it ten days

1:05:43

in may nine days america remainder of the john lucas

1:05:45

book yeah it or in berlin thing analysis

1:05:48

as the kind of a pivot of the twentieth century this

1:05:50

this this

1:05:51

period while dunkirk is happening in the

1:05:54

and france in the prices surrendering and

1:05:57

there's a possibility that churchill will be toppled

1:05:59

the

1:06:00

the government will and piecemeal us

1:06:02

to italy and therefore by extension to germany

1:06:05

in the very prices of opening up peaceful as would

1:06:07

have crippled britain's ability

1:06:09

to maintain morale

1:06:11

and the perhaps they are you with it

1:06:13

a brit might have been occupy but it would

1:06:15

have been a kind of species regime

1:06:18

and what did did

1:06:20

have become engaged then if it was kind

1:06:22

of continental europe with this lethal

1:06:25

a anti semitic racist

1:06:28

a regime that essentially was

1:06:30

kind of trampling pretty much every

1:06:32

ideal that the modern contemporary west hold

1:06:34

sacred i

1:06:37

think that would have been possible i think

1:06:39

i'm they they the snorers are interesting

1:06:41

because let's imagine or , some

1:06:43

cases germany germany when

1:06:46

his mn it wins the first oh boy i think

1:06:48

by britain not become engaged in the more

1:06:51

so let's imagine the kaiser's the i

1:06:53

winced first of all the cars the seventies and had

1:06:56

to monique in continental europe in the nineteen

1:06:58

going to the nineteen twenties but

1:07:00

it's it's twenties it's a triumph it's triumphalist

1:07:03

it's kind of stressing about it's

1:07:05

ah it's it's sort of preening but

1:07:07

there are other there's still a counterweights

1:07:10

survey i'm in britain is still a council a presumably

1:07:14

but also it doesn't necessarily

1:07:16

the cause the center that point is achieved insane

1:07:19

it is you know it is

1:07:21

sort itself up against itself up

1:07:23

against czarist russia the

1:07:25

pope francis very firmly in it's box

1:07:28

and , the kaiser now has his place in the

1:07:30

sun that is always wanted but

1:07:32

i'm guessing the kaiser's to me doesn't have

1:07:35

many more complicated war aims

1:07:37

in the nineteen twenties

1:07:39

and germany by contrast so

1:07:41

unstable

1:07:42

based on constant conflict constant

1:07:45

of on chaos so i did see

1:07:48

a nazi new or you know that that would have the

1:07:50

kind of the man in the high castle

1:07:52

the amazon drama were nazi

1:07:54

rule continues for decades of

1:07:56

i don't really see that happening because

1:07:58

i just think that sort of that's sort of

1:08:01

furious has sort of i'm

1:08:03

values what hysterical before the almost hysterical

1:08:06

dynamism of the heart of the nazi project

1:08:08

would unravel

1:08:10

i'm not eventually

1:08:12

i said because i think that the

1:08:14

at the heart of nazi ideology is the idea that

1:08:16

this the strong have the right to

1:08:19

minority the right they have a kind of moral responsibility

1:08:22

to crush the week i mean the nazis do what they do

1:08:24

not because they want to be evil but because they think they're doing

1:08:26

what's right out of their race and

1:08:29

if they've won a kind of victory

1:08:31

send that legitimated that

1:08:33

perspective and

1:08:35

in any us to last for say you know a generation

1:08:38

or two and that then becomes part

1:08:40

of the fabric of the way that people tom you think people

1:08:42

on copy them you think people woods you

1:08:45

don't see adam would become ingrained in

1:08:47

the way the i know you think is

1:08:50

tom i'm in i'm going to make tons of great

1:08:52

argument for him but some one

1:08:54

of comes great themes

1:08:56

is how even if we're not

1:09:00

damn consciously christians everything

1:09:03

we do is to permeated with come as come as

1:09:05

ideology be you think that would have happened

1:09:07

when nazi ideology up to one generation i

1:09:11

think that i'm past the reason

1:09:13

why the nazis it in

1:09:15

the contemporary west service the embodiment

1:09:18

of evil his foot

1:09:20

the

1:09:20

they they did kind of target

1:09:23

some of the key kind of ideological

1:09:25

foundation stones of christian europe

1:09:28

of which obviously one is the idea

1:09:30

that i'm

1:09:32

the strong i would use if care to the week the nazis

1:09:35

repudiated that and the other is the idea

1:09:37

that all human beings have an inherent dignity

1:09:39

and that there is nate ewell greek and again

1:09:41

the nazis repudiated that

1:09:44

the fact that they were defeated

1:09:47

kind of has demonstrated even it's of

1:09:49

if it's subliminally the fact that

1:09:51

those ideas are not just morally wrong

1:09:54

but ah are kind

1:09:56

of

1:09:58

there unsustainable

1:09:59

the

1:09:59

car organize a society

1:10:02

on that basis

1:10:03

the an ama i think is is is

1:10:06

very important to the way that the west understands

1:10:08

not just his politics but the very essence

1:10:11

of human nature but it had the nazis

1:10:13

one had they kind of enshrined that

1:10:17

you know that that their own victory as

1:10:19

evidence the what they were saying was right that

1:10:21

that their race the nordic race was

1:10:23

superior to other races

1:10:24

and that strength

1:10:28

was more important than weakness and

1:10:30

that see the that the powerful did

1:10:32

have a responsibility to crush

1:10:34

the powerless and they could point

1:10:36

to a prostrated europe as evidence

1:10:38

for this

1:10:39

and

1:10:41

they were not overthrow they were not humiliating

1:10:43

defeat it they were not crust they

1:10:45

they would not obliged to surrender unconditionally

1:10:48

than those ideas would have had

1:10:50

a currency in a way

1:10:52

that they haven't

1:10:54

the

1:10:56

the result what actually happened a

1:10:58

, in which fascism with not conclusively

1:11:00

defeated would be one in which

1:11:03

it continue to thrive because it does play with

1:11:05

with the way that that he

1:11:07

they lots of people do instinctively think people do instinctively

1:11:10

people on think resigned from his people are instinctively

1:11:13

inclined to think that stronger think more

1:11:15

important than and important and and than the week

1:11:17

and it's only kind of the they centuries

1:11:19

and centuries of christian conditioning really

1:11:22

the context of europe that has changed that the

1:11:24

if if if if those values had been

1:11:27

seen to be defeated then

1:11:29

i think that the korea fat which would

1:11:31

reverberate through the that the the decades

1:11:35

so this is gonna be a strange transition

1:11:37

so i'm going to gonna try to transition it this

1:11:39

way one could make certainly with the first were war

1:11:41

germans one can make a case that there's there's a a

1:11:44

colonialism aspect involved

1:11:46

right that's the place in the sun question is

1:11:48

much more open but even in the second world

1:11:50

war strategic war aims of

1:11:52

germy that's a colonialism two and a sense

1:11:54

right we're gonna we're gonna take over the slavic

1:11:57

lands and we're going to to rule over

1:11:59

the slavs in there in to be the slaves for the nazi

1:12:01

states we had talked

1:12:03

earlier about i'm colonialism

1:12:06

and i'm i'm curious about you know up in

1:12:08

the united states we have a certain figures

1:12:10

in history one is to com so for example

1:12:12

who tried to unite the native

1:12:14

tribes against of the

1:12:16

united states at a certain point to try

1:12:19

to figure out how you could on the

1:12:21

fight back against the colonial hours

1:12:24

in the colonial move it's i find that

1:12:27

if you go into the history of say sub

1:12:29

saharan africa north america central

1:12:31

asia south asia you have all

1:12:33

these attempts to try to fight

1:12:35

back against the divide and conquer

1:12:37

strategy that so important in

1:12:40

the colonial approach i wanted to

1:12:42

ask you guys have you had an opinion which

1:12:44

region would you considered the greatest

1:12:46

odds on favorite to resist

1:12:49

colonial subjugation if they were ever

1:12:51

able to unite and to com so like

1:12:54

way against of the colonial

1:12:56

powers say any any reason

1:12:58

of the world that was ended up being

1:13:01

absorbed into a european as part of the divine

1:13:03

my rancor sort of strategy yes or

1:13:06

no question india

1:13:08

the

1:13:09

the conquest of india was with that

1:13:11

kind of anglo indian conquest i mean it

1:13:13

was a wouldn't be possible for

1:13:16

the british t watches the numbers we like

1:13:18

our they yeah and at a that's a private

1:13:20

company taking over this the whole

1:13:22

sub conscious i mean it be that there's no way that

1:13:24

they could possibly have done that unless

1:13:27

india was completely fragmented and they were

1:13:29

substantial the

1:13:31

segments of indians

1:13:33

society and different states within

1:13:35

the framework of the whole sub continent willing

1:13:38

to work with the british and in a way to use the british

1:13:40

just as the british were using them said

1:13:43

the rods was it

1:13:45

was kind of anglo indian condominium

1:13:49

that i think that it was entirely possible

1:13:52

in the eighteenth century for it

1:13:54

, say in south india that

1:13:56

the cell say some of say some

1:13:59

hyderabad of my so

1:14:01

i tip resulted in my soul with at

1:14:03

it i mean he he right fight

1:14:06

against the british had

1:14:08

out hydra bad had my so perhaps that they are allied

1:14:10

with them or off as the same way the british could have

1:14:13

could have conquered india so

1:14:16

i am i with the ada

1:14:18

and the moment that the sense of a united

1:14:20

india came to be formed in the in

1:14:22

the late nineteenth and twentieth centuries it

1:14:24

became obvious to everyone that the rodgers going

1:14:26

to end i mean even the most kind

1:14:28

of died in the wool imperialist have to

1:14:30

accept the moment that there was a kind of indian

1:14:32

national consciousness emerging there was

1:14:35

no way that the british could hold on to india

1:14:37

because that that the mismatch was too great

1:14:40

i agree with some but i think that the reason india

1:14:42

works tom is because india

1:14:44

had the had been empires

1:14:46

and india says perfectly plausible

1:14:49

to imagine that in the eighteenth

1:14:51

you know has history was how differently the

1:14:54

would have been some dominant empire

1:14:56

in india they would easily have been able to see of

1:14:58

the east india company you know think i'm

1:15:00

in but that's not a taser other parts

1:15:03

of the world's safety minute thing a old

1:15:05

colonial i would say almost

1:15:07

every single clear new european colonial empire

1:15:09

works

1:15:11

because it was with local collaborators

1:15:13

local allies and that starts right

1:15:15

at the beginning

1:15:16

when i'm the spaniards

1:15:19

arrive in the valley of mexico and the

1:15:21

as long when they when they arrive in

1:15:24

was now parade some both cases

1:15:26

the the traditional view the we have

1:15:29

is completely wrong so the idea a

1:15:31

tiny band of spaniards pet shops and

1:15:34

through their amazing technology and the fact that everybody

1:15:36

thinks they gods are able to overcome

1:15:39

colossally superior numbers

1:15:41

i mean that's just obviously nonsense

1:15:44

what happens is the in in both cases they working

1:15:46

with lots of local allies because the

1:15:48

societies and in which they arrived are

1:15:51

deeply fragmented and would

1:15:53

always have been fragmented so

1:15:55

you know that the the what week

1:15:57

think of is the as tax day

1:16:00

lots of like rivals at him flash

1:16:02

collar there are the most obvious

1:16:04

ones the spine is ally with america's

1:16:06

finest are only able to feed them because of their local

1:16:09

the localized same thing with

1:16:11

the incas the spaniards arise the incas

1:16:13

a divided this but they were probably always

1:16:15

gonna be divided because they had a history of division

1:16:18

and or lots of people who resented the incas so

1:16:21

that's slightly different from india

1:16:23

because i think in india you'd had hadn't

1:16:25

you tom kind of big our

1:16:29

phone rich united

1:16:31

civilizations the could easily seen

1:16:33

of european ensures that tell him as to in

1:16:35

the americas that's impossible to imagine

1:16:38

i think the native americans of

1:16:40

north america forming

1:16:42

this massive confederation

1:16:45

there would have seen off the french and the premise

1:16:47

that they had no history of such and

1:16:49

such alliance know but here's what's funny

1:16:52

they they imitated exactly what

1:16:54

you were talking about right spit they

1:16:56

they did it in reverse or someone like

1:16:58

to com so for example tried

1:17:00

to use the british to

1:17:03

help him defeat the americans

1:17:05

in the same way that before there was a united states

1:17:08

certain tribes allied with the french

1:17:10

or the british to try to see the other

1:17:12

side in other words that's almost the reverse

1:17:15

of what you're talking about right where by that point

1:17:17

is too late as they demonstrated also

1:17:19

it but also i mean that i think

1:17:22

technology does matter the

1:17:24

and size

1:17:26

matters as well

1:17:28

that but get back the technology i mean tiny

1:17:30

were saying we the why would people i

1:17:32

did they beyond they front is the roman empire not able to

1:17:34

replicate allegiance because they didn't have they

1:17:38

the society the culture that has generated the

1:17:40

legions and likewise

1:17:43

if you're going through a kind of a

1:17:46

an industrial quantum leap if

1:17:48

you go through the industrial revolution if you

1:17:50

are developing weapons

1:17:53

that are a fearsome and devastating

1:17:56

on a scale beyond the

1:17:58

imaginings of people he

1:18:01

who don't have factories who don't have steel

1:18:03

mills arms and if you

1:18:05

are a civilization that is able

1:18:07

to feed vast numbers

1:18:09

of people and generate a huge

1:18:11

population growth then

1:18:15

there's no way you can resist it

1:18:17

the

1:18:18

that essentially in a game

1:18:20

right the way back through at through

1:18:22

the entire span of time that's why we

1:18:24

will now have open civilizations

1:18:27

and we're not hunter gatherers that's because ultimately

1:18:31

there are technological their a societal

1:18:34

advances that will make certain

1:18:36

societies stronger and more powerful

1:18:39

boot devastating more lethal than others and

1:18:42

when there is a title mismatch

1:18:45

they to the weaker will be

1:18:47

no way that they can withstand

1:18:50

the i would say that the that i'm

1:18:53

sure that the the aztecs could have seen of

1:18:55

the spaniards

1:18:57

i don't think that there was ever any prospect

1:18:59

that the the native americans

1:19:01

of the great plains got a scene of the united

1:19:03

states that i think that

1:19:05

there was ever any prospect of the

1:19:08

native people in australia saying

1:19:10

off the settlers and in the nineties the twentieth

1:19:12

century or there's just no way would ever

1:19:15

have ever have possible is

1:19:17

it so i'll make this the last question big as it

1:19:19

but it's certainly a trap door kind of question

1:19:21

because admit it's so one

1:19:23

of the things you get here in the united states i think you

1:19:25

get him all over the world is this idea

1:19:27

of of that these technologically

1:19:30

superior or sips i

1:19:32

don't know what you would call it a logistically infrastructure

1:19:34

really superior or entities

1:19:37

should not have done what

1:19:39

they did write this so so

1:19:41

for example that does the people who came

1:19:44

from europe should not have done what they did

1:19:46

in a broad sense that would not talk about individual

1:19:48

massacres with this but in a broad sense

1:19:50

should not have done what they did this that i

1:19:53

find it in a in an almost

1:19:55

on i find it impossible

1:19:57

to imagine the counterfactual image

1:19:59

you asians when you have societies

1:20:02

that are so dominating in

1:20:04

terms of technological or or or

1:20:06

as we said logistical in infrastructural advantages

1:20:09

it's , for me to imagine for example the

1:20:12

the europeans finding the new world

1:20:14

and then just saying well you know which is gonna set aside

1:20:16

and dot and not do anything i've

1:20:18

been in other words and let em how flacco this

1:20:20

love love on them and such as this

1:20:23

is out of us would lead us where john

1:20:25

wayne one said it was okay for the us

1:20:27

europeans to take the land from the natives because

1:20:29

they weren't properly using it i mean i criticize

1:20:32

his eyes of one of those things where are we are

1:20:34

are assuming something that almost

1:20:37

would be it a defying human

1:20:39

nature to expect something like that to

1:20:41

happen well drop

1:20:43

your question emerges has some before

1:20:46

you got i can i just you know what i wanna

1:20:48

say i know sale and some will suffer week

1:20:50

to say so out as i get we have as we have

1:20:52

it happens when you're focused on

1:20:54

damage output i we have no lie women i never

1:20:57

heard me so i would say

1:20:59

whenever people tell this story

1:21:02

and they now tom and also knows what i'm

1:21:04

going to say and is probably rolling his eyes

1:21:06

of a i think whenever

1:21:09

people tell this story and they start sort of

1:21:11

you know whoever as you

1:21:13

were i don't want to sound like i'm in a lunatic so

1:21:16

but i will i when i started ringing

1:21:18

the hands the same this is dreadful behavior this

1:21:20

is very awful we should feel very sorry

1:21:22

about it's always and stuff i

1:21:25

just seem as a historic i think

1:21:29

people behave in inverted commas badly

1:21:32

throughout history all

1:21:34

the time i'm reliably

1:21:37

big

1:21:38

rich

1:21:39

technologically adepts aggressive

1:21:42

societies will behave aggressively

1:21:45

i , it's impossible it is lee

1:21:47

i see is literally impossible to imagine

1:21:49

a scenario which com bust sales

1:21:51

west then the spanish

1:21:54

don't do what they do and let in the in

1:21:57

in in mexico and peru for example

1:22:00

they don't all day badly because

1:22:02

that all villains they behave badly

1:22:04

i would say because they human and because

1:22:07

that's what people do so i think

1:22:09

the sort of expressions of slight shock

1:22:11

that we have now the twenty first century

1:22:13

spectators looking is all this

1:22:16

which sort of oh how could the spanish do what they did

1:22:18

how could the british behave so mainly in india

1:22:20

and africa and or this kind of stuff

1:22:23

we should feel very sorry and gonna run by garments

1:22:25

and and weep a while about it when again

1:22:27

i know some your listeners will probably think i'm being to flip

1:22:29

and but i think the

1:22:31

story of history it is

1:22:33

that this the have is this is part

1:22:36

of being human i mean as often as that may

1:22:38

seem to many of us and i know tumbled

1:22:40

talk about why that seems awful

1:22:43

to us and the sort of ideological the

1:22:47

coaching we've had to to to

1:22:49

think that and and of course we all have that's

1:22:51

because you want think of ourselves nice people but

1:22:53

yeah i completely agree with you done i think

1:22:56

it's impossible to imagine a scenario and

1:22:58

was europeans can travel

1:23:00

vast distances in great

1:23:02

numbers with in

1:23:04

him with weapons with firearms

1:23:08

with all of their diseases as well by the way

1:23:11

i'm in which they don't subjugates these

1:23:14

places and i don't think

1:23:16

it's because something intrinsically

1:23:18

wicked about early

1:23:21

, europeans i think it's because

1:23:24

to be brutal about it that kind of

1:23:26

competitive acquisitive suited

1:23:31

for exploitative strain

1:23:33

is is inside human nature

1:23:36

is an interesting aspect of being

1:23:38

a twenty first century westerner

1:23:41

the we sutra that and we were coil from

1:23:43

it's may even as we as i

1:23:45

think deep down we can see as in ourselves

1:23:48

the devil i did what i would say to that is

1:23:51

it

1:23:52

was

1:23:54

it bad

1:23:56

the definition of that puts the deficit good

1:23:58

what what what is wrong with guy

1:23:59

conquering other people what is wrong with

1:24:02

ah if you have if you're much more powerful

1:24:04

subjugating they two weeks

1:24:06

a nice they may sound kind of shocking

1:24:08

questions but there any shocking because

1:24:11

we take the answer to these questions pretty much

1:24:13

for granted but if you look at the fast

1:24:15

sweep of history it's not a toll self

1:24:17

evident that people

1:24:20

regard ah basically

1:24:22

and basically and and and self confident

1:24:24

and aggressive civilizations that they regard

1:24:26

conquering people who weaken the them as

1:24:29

as something that is quote unquote wrong

1:24:31

to gain right the way back to the beginning

1:24:33

if you look at that the nama palette which

1:24:35

is kind of one of the foundational emblems

1:24:37

of ancient egypt it

1:24:39

shows the , of

1:24:41

a pharaoh combating

1:24:44

the forces of chaos and the

1:24:46

images of people

1:24:49

on that freeze who are not egyptian who

1:24:51

lie beyond the borders of egypt makes

1:24:54

it clear that they are the

1:24:56

people who are the object the pharaohs

1:24:58

roth and and might and that they're

1:25:00

subjugation the right

1:25:02

thing to do that this is this is

1:25:04

a moral positive that this is the

1:25:06

correct thing to do and

1:25:09

it's very difficult to think of an empire the

1:25:12

in antiquity the did not see

1:25:16

conquest as in some way the

1:25:18

expression off what

1:25:21

either either wanted or kind of moral obstructions

1:25:24

the worked out so whether it's

1:25:26

the syrians or the babylonians already

1:25:28

even the israelites their ,

1:25:31

the mandated by that define define

1:25:34

with the person's but the person's introduce

1:25:36

is incredibly novel idea that the world

1:25:38

is moral and that their empire

1:25:41

is the expression of of kind

1:25:43

of an abstract force of truth

1:25:45

in order that permeates itself throughout the

1:25:47

entire fabric of the universe and

1:25:49

that's an inheritance an the

1:25:51

christians and and and muslims

1:25:54

have inherited are so the

1:25:56

calif eight the that the calif the the

1:25:58

the arab conquest they are justified

1:26:01

by this is what god wants god wants

1:26:03

the world's become muslim i

1:26:06

think what makes it was the thing that

1:26:08

is slightly more complex is the christian attitude

1:26:10

to this because on the one hand christian christianity

1:26:12

is a mission religion that like is hop

1:26:15

and sees itself as a gift given

1:26:17

to the whole of humanity and therefore christians

1:26:19

like muslims have a duty to spread

1:26:21

their faith to the ends of the world but

1:26:24

, makes christianity more ambivalent

1:26:26

and it's attitude to this kind of imperialism

1:26:29

is the fact that christ himself dies

1:26:31

the victim of a great empire namely

1:26:33

the romans

1:26:34

and of course the cross is an

1:26:36

emblem of the right of the powerful the

1:26:39

tortured to death the powerless and

1:26:41

this becomes the emblem of christianity the emblem

1:26:43

that the spaniards for instance take to

1:26:46

the new world

1:26:50

the when the spaniards

1:26:52

the homecare mexico

1:26:55

of course there is a sense of triumph

1:26:57

they are the conquistador as the idea

1:27:00

that god has given them this world admit it

1:27:02

returns to the glory of spain that

1:27:04

it it's a it it it it's

1:27:07

something to t to celebrate of

1:27:09

course that is an element of

1:27:11

it but there is also a nagging

1:27:13

sense that perhaps what they're doing is

1:27:15

the offensive

1:27:18

to god it's really summed

1:27:20

up with kind of the great

1:27:22

debate between

1:27:24

two spanish ah theologians

1:27:26

one of whom bartolomeo less cause us argues

1:27:29

that the indians have souls and

1:27:31

that what the spanish doing a sense lease is

1:27:33

not justified by god's law and

1:27:36

his opponents when they argue against

1:27:38

this have to draw classical tradition

1:27:41

the very

1:27:42

certain people and natural slaves of course they should

1:27:44

be they should be conquered i

1:27:46

think that that ambivalence towards

1:27:48

empire so you know if

1:27:50

you're if you're caught if you're going as hundred the emblem

1:27:53

of across are you

1:27:55

playing the ravens are are you playing the guy who gets

1:27:57

tortured to death the romans

1:27:59

i but back isn't ambivalence that

1:28:02

as a lie that lane at the heart of the kind

1:28:04

of the the western

1:28:07

conquest of the world of the that the had

1:28:09

gemini that the west as exercise day for the

1:28:11

world arm and in a way

1:28:14

the fact that people at beyond the

1:28:16

west of bought into this the fact that they

1:28:19

they they to kind of buy into the idea

1:28:21

that there is a kind of dignity in being oppressed

1:28:24

that the victimhood brings it same status

1:28:27

the paradoxes of the in a way that is an expression

1:28:29

of continuing western germany i mean there's

1:28:31

nothing really kind of more more

1:28:34

west and the the idea of the colonization for

1:28:36

instance if you have the colonizing something you

1:28:38

are expressing deeply deeply western

1:28:40

ideas but it's a kind of massive

1:28:43

at the it's it's it's a kind of moral mobius

1:28:45

strip or are these ideas

1:28:48

inherently correct or are they do

1:28:51

we think that that correct because we've

1:28:53

all of us been weapons

1:28:56

by the effects of empires that belief

1:28:58

that and will kind of the factors

1:29:00

for it is a splint difference though there's a

1:29:02

split the difference in this i mean if you'd like when

1:29:04

i was a when you go read the primary

1:29:06

source materials are from an era

1:29:08

where people absolutely believe

1:29:11

that there is eternal damnation an

1:29:13

eternal hell fire if you're not saved

1:29:15

by of by a religion if you

1:29:18

believe that your conquest of

1:29:20

say a native peoples who was or

1:29:22

pagan or season or whatever would you would use

1:29:25

and because you have you have shown

1:29:27

them the way that you have saved

1:29:29

them from an eternity in hell

1:29:31

fire them whatever you did them

1:29:33

in this one life is by

1:29:35

comparison meaningless in other words how

1:29:38

do good people justify this i

1:29:40

think that's how good people tell themselves

1:29:43

that they've done a good deed by conquering

1:29:46

and enslaving other people as long

1:29:48

as you saved them from an eternal

1:29:50

damnation does that make sense of what is good

1:29:52

but what what is good i mean that's the thing what's the definition

1:29:54

of good because it definition of goodness is is

1:29:56

constantly changing

1:29:58

or i

1:30:01

mean i sit set so i think i either

1:30:04

the the aztecs

1:30:06

they were they were themselves in

1:30:08

peronists

1:30:10

there at that their extraordinary city

1:30:12

that struck me civilization was itself founded

1:30:15

on conquest i'm as far as i know there

1:30:17

was no one in assets society the question

1:30:19

that i wasn't a kind of questioning

1:30:21

of the right of the powerful to conquer the

1:30:23

powerless that say the spaniards

1:30:25

brought even though the paradox

1:30:28

isn't this funny it's infinitely more lethal and

1:30:30

destructive i mean i would say

1:30:32

damn i , i don't know if com

1:30:34

agrees with this i just asking the question

1:30:36

battle good is the wrong question to

1:30:38

ask my history will inaccurate theologians

1:30:41

out if i guess i mean some of your listeners

1:30:43

may well be thinking whoa would you expect snow you

1:30:45

get to purchase guys on in their cards right that's

1:30:47

right do service etc colonialism but

1:30:49

i'm a mom way of facing that is the source

1:30:52

this some of the most effective

1:30:54

conquests in history with the arab conquests

1:30:56

yes yes an hour and

1:30:59

you know his and you quest with the arabs

1:31:01

wrong to com to egypt

1:31:04

was that bad i mean if

1:31:06

he wins a cairo today and

1:31:08

you propose that arguments and you

1:31:10

said this was a terrible thing

1:31:12

was exploitative it was aggressive

1:31:15

it was unprovoked i'm

1:31:17

a shouldn't have happened the people who did

1:31:19

it was bad and they were villainous

1:31:21

and so they did if they claim they were doing it

1:31:23

for religious reasons but no doubt there was

1:31:25

a lot of greed and cruelty

1:31:27

and save a all this stuff and if you

1:31:29

made that argument in the sense of kira people

1:31:32

would think he was the meant it another

1:31:34

the unfit and most people would feel very

1:31:36

uneasy making such an argument's

1:31:38

by their conquests because

1:31:41

we tend to make those arguments by good and

1:31:43

bad actually was relation to western

1:31:46

his untimely and we think of colonialism

1:31:48

is a purely western phenomenon has

1:31:50

a european phenomenon but

1:31:52

i mean i mean making that argument about the ottoman

1:31:55

empire saying the ottomans

1:31:57

were wrong to have counted constantinople

1:31:59

they were to have taken while was nickering

1:32:01

set me make that argument for the grease would make

1:32:03

that argument but then would you save the greeks

1:32:06

were wrong to have landed in sicily and

1:32:08

to establish their colony it's syracuse

1:32:11

or something i mean that would seem for you know rail

1:32:13

yard latimer you know miles to that are in

1:32:15

good you they write any right and wrong

1:32:17

good good and evil ah cultural

1:32:20

construct acoustics and right you think it's

1:32:22

a dead dead for the of propagated by the

1:32:24

powerful as you they the the

1:32:27

that the ideas of good and evil all

1:32:29

right or wrong or justified invasion

1:32:31

or whatever they are generally related

1:32:34

to sustain the

1:32:37

rock to the to be created by the powerful because

1:32:39

if they don't powerful than they did lot me

1:32:41

either the area in iran says you could say if if

1:32:43

if if we have a problem with the invasion

1:32:46

of the spaniards into the new world for example

1:32:49

are and they come in damage i mean the comanches

1:32:51

added genocidal war against

1:32:54

the planes apaches arm

1:32:57

but but that is beyond the pale

1:32:59

of the sort of on ethical discussions

1:33:01

we have about this sort of stuff because

1:33:03

these are indigenous peoples against other indigenous

1:33:06

peoples against other words it's like garlic tribes

1:33:08

fighting other golly tribes and then caesar comes

1:33:11

in our is is there any difference

1:33:13

between having any albino well now what

1:33:15

are your arguments is familiar who either has

1:33:17

never had so you're going here's who are outside

1:33:19

i mean how far your last travel to fight

1:33:22

saudi that's it snowed as saudi say the reason for

1:33:24

the aztecs the aztecs were not indigenous

1:33:26

to the value mexico they had moved south

1:33:29

so it's okay for them to move by land

1:33:31

but not okay for the spaniards to

1:33:33

move by see by man i think that's

1:33:35

the trouble is these it he

1:33:37

was when you start to look into these those

1:33:40

sort immoral injuries

1:33:42

i think just begin to have to crumble

1:33:44

and another thing you can say it's fine for the

1:33:46

as text comes to tribes overland

1:33:49

and then start fighting people but

1:33:51

because the spaniards have come by ship and

1:33:53

have palest skins that's

1:33:55

not as well

1:33:57

that's

1:33:59

unless you're

1:33:59

related

1:34:02

please join i think you have to without morality

1:34:04

is relative as as culturally

1:34:06

conditioned as something that involves and changes

1:34:09

i in other words not or something absolute because

1:34:11

if you're treating is something upstate than you're you're you're you're

1:34:13

engaging in a slightly different discipline i think

1:34:16

didn't say that the spin is wrong i mean that's that's

1:34:18

what theology and and and and philosophy and

1:34:20

ethics is all about if you look at history

1:34:23

to talk about ideas of right and wrong as absolutes

1:34:26

you have to recognize that

1:34:29

the sense of these as absolutes is culturally

1:34:31

conditioned soaps to look at the thongs

1:34:34

was it wrong for the romans to conquer the goals

1:34:37

up i'm into the romans no probably

1:34:39

not to the goals either because the

1:34:41

goals had had sex roam the goes

1:34:43

well comes to the rampaging around that they were true

1:34:45

as they were embassy attack each of us the

1:34:48

raymond conquered them in the goals ended up kind of

1:34:50

acknowledging the romans as the most powerful

1:34:52

tribal and and that was kind

1:34:54

of ah the moral universe

1:34:57

the both raymond said goals in the first century

1:34:59

bc inhabited if

1:35:01

we look now say the quite than that that the

1:35:03

question you asked

1:35:05

the

1:35:07

han white

1:35:09

americans

1:35:11

sit in judgment and say that

1:35:14

say the comanches were wrong to

1:35:16

attack other place

1:35:18

for american people with in the end the great plains

1:35:21

inherent in that is the idea that because

1:35:24

native americans ended up the

1:35:26

and com couldn't subdued

1:35:28

and subordinated

1:35:31

to the power of of the white settlers

1:35:34

therefore they have that status

1:35:37

as victims ah that

1:35:39

white settler society

1:35:41

privileges because that white settlers

1:35:43

society brings with it

1:35:46

the idea that it's god suffered the death

1:35:48

of a slave at the hands of an imperial power

1:35:51

and even if people in a particularly

1:35:54

on the on the liberal wing it progressive wing in the united states

1:35:56

are no longer overtly

1:35:58

christian then they're not a normal the christian

1:36:01

morally in their hearts they remain christian

1:36:03

and they retain the conviction that there

1:36:05

is a status and a moral value

1:36:07

in being a victim that being

1:36:09

of victimizer being an imperial power does

1:36:11

not possess

1:36:13

that therefore

1:36:15

people to pick people who come from a position

1:36:17

of privilege are not entitled to

1:36:19

sit in judgment

1:36:21

over those who are not privilege

1:36:23

the back of a culturally conditioned assumption

1:36:26

that is bread of the distinctive

1:36:28

character of american history i would

1:36:30

argue i mean you could go further

1:36:32

and say well that's of that is an absolute moral position

1:36:34

if you doing that you'll no longer engaging in history

1:36:37

in my opinion you're engaging in in philosophy

1:36:39

of theology and for more on this tom

1:36:41

holland's book dominion would i

1:36:44

, like to thank you very much as good

1:36:47

as you this all day but it's about but it's

1:36:49

and fifteen degrees in my studio right

1:36:51

now and i'm melting of where

1:36:53

can people here your podcast

1:36:55

so it's called the rest is history ah

1:36:58

you can hear it on spotify it's you

1:37:00

can hear and i tunes and you can hear it on you

1:37:02

tube and we do two episodes

1:37:04

but it pretty much to two episodes every week then we

1:37:06

tom yeah , a few more

1:37:09

covering everything that much i have to say

1:37:11

compared with with your

1:37:13

your opus is i mean these amir pamphlets

1:37:16

some of them are own sulfide or that's a great

1:37:18

minutes after that on a great way to rationalize

1:37:20

my lot of productivity thank you i appreciate

1:37:23

i penalty so

1:37:25

we did too weak and we have a club

1:37:27

called the rest is the club where

1:37:30

and if you join the if you can have

1:37:33

chats with all the have club members and they'll

1:37:35

get very excited and they tom i'm basically

1:37:38

they do that this i spent their faces spend most

1:37:40

of the time telling us are terrible at most recent

1:37:42

are was or whatever bedser

1:37:45

yet episode the rest is history is

1:37:48

notice hardcore as as hardcore

1:37:50

history a thing as vet says minutes on we

1:37:53

were i think is vet says epic and sweet

1:37:56

but we all kind of inspired by down with upping

1:37:58

our game so we've got some

1:37:59

we've just under five posts special on

1:38:02

the on the the american civil war and

1:38:04

, you may be appalled at the idea that we could possibly

1:38:07

do the american civil war five that say say

1:38:10

aspect but wait what when we tell you that we did the whole

1:38:12

french revolution it is i think about an hour

1:38:14

oh my gosh you know he'll say that we didn't wait

1:38:16

we're doing we're with you guys

1:38:18

are delightful i'd love to have another conversation

1:38:21