0:00

i promise to tell you

0:02

about this i've already appears to listening to

0:05

it looking at the chart position between

0:09

the sheets podcast

0:13

me times without

0:21

any intrigue,

0:23

you too crazy about

0:27

it join again the quick

0:29

the sheets where have you get your pants

0:32

my lovely but twixters is

0:34

kate list are jumping and with your

0:36

bad dude warning bad

0:39

news we are talking about adult

0:41

themes in an adult he way we're covering

0:43

which is which is inevitably gonna mean

0:45

taught through and general for reading this

0:48

treatment on swearing obviously

0:50

but this is your said is warning so thought

0:52

is not your cup of which is brew

0:55

them please sit this one out everyone

0:57

else

1:08

work

1:09

evil that murky

1:11

is an ass

1:18

you think are we think of a which is

1:20

into the sexy the halloween which

1:22

that we all wanted to dress up for when we were students

1:25

alumni that was just me or do you think of a stereotypical

1:28

which with the hooked nose an old

1:30

woman living alone with a cat in a colder

1:32

and although now i'm a bit older this actually

1:35

sounds much more appealing than the sixty which

1:37

however where did the stereotype

1:39

come from and how does it stack

1:41

up against a very true story

1:44

of the they decide which is the last

1:46

which is to be hanged in the utility

1:49

or today betwixt the seats were gonna

1:51

find out

2:14

social courtesy does make a difference

2:26

and welcome back to betwixt the seats

2:28

to his just sex scandal in society with

2:30

me tasteless sixteen

2:32

eighty two three women for medicine

2:35

doesn't the executed in exeter

2:37

what was that crime

2:39

the

2:40

hundreds lloyd married trembles and

2:42

susanna edwards were amongst the last

2:45

people to be executed in the uk

2:47

for this particular crime the

2:49

day i'm joined by john callow to find

2:51

out what these women were supposed to have done

2:54

what was their story will happen

2:56

to them and if they indeed metamorphosis

2:58

into animals and developed seats on their

3:00

body for the devil

3:01

soak unlikely

3:04

thank you for joining me betwixt the seats

3:06

the cold when is bubbling

3:08

dive in

3:17

hello to gian carlo

3:19

joy to may betwixt the seats how doesn't

3:21

i'm very good things case was little

3:23

bit helps out there

3:24

it is sweltering li hot

3:27

my god for he token

3:29

all right

3:29

yeah no problem it's own vienna semester

3:31

getting the dog sounds early in the morning

3:34

and late at night isn't

3:36

playing it by a that's exactly the my approach

3:38

my approach to spend to lie on the flaw in flaw

3:40

towel wins and incessantly thoughts

3:42

been my whole a press or not here to talk

3:44

about such things

3:46

we're here to talk about a which

3:48

case i hadn't really i was not familiar

3:50

with the bit of said with

3:51

so the benefit which is over

3:53

last three women we know hangs

3:56

for witchcraft of the crime of witchcraft and

3:58

england son is really related

4:00

sixteen eighty two which is more

4:03

the age we think of as the enlightenment

4:05

madonna see rather than anything today with the

4:07

middle ages

4:08

you know if you want to start a fight

4:10

go into a medieval conference and say

4:12

that the witch burnings were met evil it

4:14

was almost all into this

4:17

early modern enlightenment period

4:19

was no

4:19

absolutely it's follows the than people

4:22

think that actually watch the judiciary

4:24

and the medieval period were really really

4:26

relaxed about witchcraft and magic

4:28

of comparison doubly so and

4:31

really the first muslim witchcraft com

4:34

the first one really well sourced is

4:36

joan of arc the thing we

4:38

sing calvino and joan of arc went

4:41

to the steak as a which a transvestite

4:43

asphalt , got a civil and

4:46

the two things worse for all kinds

4:48

of a socialist reasons that have linked

4:50

together for linked classic witch trials

4:52

we think of her incredibly molson it's the

4:54

reign of limited the first through to bother

4:56

tom a chance to second of james's end

4:59

where the big hands to place

5:01

this is a huge question but what was

5:03

going on like you said that the melamed

5:05

ledges and said the medieval period been

5:07

quite relaxed but which is which i saw a like

5:09

the idea of how you will witchcraft

5:12

and the guy who's supposed it

5:14

kind of like thought oh don't worry about that made says

5:16

casual witchcraft but i what happens

5:18

to make it go from yeah betty

5:21

down the and the road she is a which but don't bother

5:23

us to burn the witch or

5:25

hung the which i should say in this country

5:27

like what was going on

5:28

well we're having lots of things are think

5:31

the breakup of medieval

5:34

christianity

5:35

you've got the reformation so

5:37

, if you get this picture near

5:40

had the last pagan kingdom in

5:42

europe is up there in there

5:44

baltics it's lithuania in the early

5:46

fourteenth century and when the

5:48

crusaders go in and basically tail or

5:50

converse everybody that's the end

5:52

of that so there were no huygens

5:55

skill and around everybody

5:57

is pretty much i'm

6:00

a genius within

6:02

catholic , church orthodox

6:05

church present him but as a different

6:07

story so everybody is it won't

6:09

face and face now that

6:11

breaks apart with martin luther

6:13

and if he can imagine the everything you thought was

6:15

true suddenly people are saying they're

6:17

issue that as a whole fabric of science

6:20

and ideas about purgatory

6:22

in the afterlife and the primacy

6:24

of the bible a woman before see

6:27

gotten enormous jr and crisis

6:29

of faith at the same town society

6:32

is beginning to break down in

6:34

terms of the fools is coming in so heresy

6:37

is changing the way the poor down with

6:39

another part of the reformation as well that

6:41

is no longer about good work skinny

6:43

and as says it all of

6:45

all sudden the poor basically less on the

6:47

scrappy been their own their monasteries around

6:49

anymore that would have helped them or i

6:51

promise so that's or i problems

6:54

i think the other really really big problem

6:57

that is i see it's way out on i think this

6:59

is the key to businesses his ideas

7:01

about god himself

7:04

that , moving from an age

7:06

and the resist thing that nobody is really

7:09

kind of explained but as

7:11

a watershed around about the middle

7:13

of the seventeenth century where we

7:15

go from the early multiple to the recognizably

7:18

muslim and tons of the one side thanks now

7:20

it's for our own own of reasons

7:23

but one of the most important as the wife of

7:25

guilty same said before we

7:27

have the idea of very much the old testament

7:30

god to intervenes all the time

7:32

twenty four seven phrase thunderbolts

7:34

around all as tons of things is

7:36

things by about

7:39

seventeen hundred sentencing sustain

7:41

with moved to this idea of the transcendent

7:44

gold who is sort of absent without leave

7:48

modern church of england idea that

7:51

guards at one point for the jewish

7:53

people and the time and jesus was

7:55

very involved in human affairs but

7:57

he seems to rub it disappeared and

8:00

he doesn't intervene all

8:02

the town so if

8:04

you're fighting a rearguard action to say

8:07

that we believe in a gold there

8:10

with his every day every now and everything

8:12

is a providence if is to be towel full

8:14

than folks old as a little judgment

8:16

on yes if , fight

8:18

in that regard action what we really need

8:20

due to persuade people that god

8:23

is with as twenty four seven is

8:25

to have this idea that there is a sort of holy

8:27

war going on between god and his

8:29

aunt rifle the devil or that clever

8:31

sign say ideas are thrown

8:34

back onto the duality because

8:36

if you've got a religion that says everything

8:39

is black and white you look

8:41

for the bad stuff you know

8:43

other really has don't have it in

8:46

that way but ,

8:48

christianity and it's various forms does

8:51

and so this idea of holy warfare

8:53

becomes more and more important and

8:56

it's not coming from village level

8:58

the stuff we're seeing in the late seventeenth century

9:01

isn't stuff that the

9:03

people coming up with these charges

9:05

unknown the world a desk

9:07

people who are labour his there's

9:10

a people in the elite of society

9:12

says people i glanville is a

9:14

member the royal society and the to

9:16

himself right well entry charles

9:19

a sudden these kind of absent without leave

9:21

in the way things about things the steward

9:23

monarchs and not big into witchcraft charles

9:26

buses was that against it but that

9:28

the game james you buy didn't he right

9:31

demonology

9:31

that's early as james the six

9:34

and first and the is dead wrong with that

9:36

are the stars of the stewards he runs the

9:38

classic witch hunting tracks

9:41

on that is by somebody who

9:43

is in many ways incredibly

9:46

molson

9:46

the james he boy he writes demonology

9:50

king

9:51

right about witches

9:52

well exactly any distaste know

9:54

because it was somehow he said terry co

9:56

not because it was a nine days when does

9:59

because he sounds to do so he

10:01

felt he has to comment on

10:03

all the leading affairs of europe

10:05

and he felt the threat from which

10:07

is was particularly real

10:09

an apparent to any files that he'd been

10:12

targeted by satanic conspiracy

10:15

be sold as a witch's meeting

10:17

at north barrett and if you think

10:19

actually what robbie burns is doing

10:21

in time of sansa is

10:23

, ceasar about whole life but he's actually

10:25

tanking the meeting of the which

10:28

is of the ruined could answer james

10:30

his work james does believe

10:34

ruin the

10:38

the south of the cool

10:40

that's doomed to stop in picking up

10:42

his bride from denmark and

10:44

they with that is is under current in society

10:46

and that he's great rival the earl of bothwell

10:49

was in league with satan to get rid

10:51

of it said are these terrible trials

10:53

that james and leashes across

10:56

scotland in the fifty nine seats

10:58

and even when he becomes king

11:00

of england as well you know he hit the jackpot

11:03

after elizabeth does his demonology

11:06

elizabeth republished in england and

11:08

republished collected works so he doesn't purity

11:11

doesn't want to distance himself

11:14

in any wife and then what items as he

11:16

gets popularize they're all these little

11:18

advice is the called the advances

11:20

a jury men to england which

11:22

upon a use that as sources book if

11:24

you dress school to do to resurface

11:27

am what he says he look for in a which

11:29

is basically watch jane says

11:32

you need to look for says it's a deeply

11:34

must have missed the boat

11:36

go and how may i want to know if i qualify

11:37

well

11:39

oldham the as and you bring steaks

11:41

he goes through and he says for

11:44

women preponderance you know that

11:46

if you're looking for your perpetrators they going

11:48

to be women as only one now

11:50

wait to one hundred women and

11:53

now he says this because

11:55

he was more susceptible and adam

11:57

for those walls of the devil taking

11:59

the forbidden fruit and ,

12:01

goes into this enormous passage about

12:04

women being what can we say

12:06

for family odin's or were not a family on

12:09

have so they cannot be

12:12

sexually safety i see it in the way that way

12:14

man com for that capacity

12:16

for are more on for pleasure makes

12:18

them incredibly dangerous an

12:21

open to the walls the site and so james

12:23

since this whole sort of dumping ground

12:26

on women as agenda he

12:28

cody phones magic where

12:30

it comes from what it can do he goes

12:32

into ferry believe he goes into whoop

12:34

goblins he goes into lots of weird

12:36

stuff on the difference between village

12:39

magic was sort of thing we associate

12:41

to david witches and hein magic

12:43

to do with it comes sorcerers we think

12:46

maybe when we think of somebody like john they

12:48

of shakespeare's prosper of somebody

12:50

ironically in that period you've

12:52

got posts burrow who shakespeare right

12:55

into the stage who james would

12:57

have thought would have been the worst thing ever

12:59

whereas my best switches are

13:02

a little bit low at them and you can

13:04

see as well who is the great which

13:06

dramatist it's william shakespeare

13:09

the six week chef to wait chef to

13:11

wait here players unless

13:13

you know again go back to what we're talking

13:15

about earlier his joan of arc

13:18

in henry the sakes is

13:20

a wage she raised the storm

13:22

should raise his ten pastes she's

13:24

in league with the devil to defeat pulled within

13:26

the english so we've got

13:28

a culture that is beginning for

13:31

a monthly he tank on

13:33

the wage as a terrifying think

13:35

of the king's face it the bible

13:37

says it's if you're educated and

13:39

you've read the classics lots of

13:41

roman and greek causes talk about which

13:43

is as well so almost everything

13:46

you read says that which is

13:48

exist and if you're in the period we're talking

13:50

about sixty nine things one of the

13:52

things that the orleans the high

13:54

tories the anglican church man

13:56

who are writing all these things to justify

13:59

which believe hammer on about again

14:01

and again and again is if you take

14:03

the witches out of the bible lady

14:06

a store

14:07

it's an interesting theological point

14:09

would it be home facilities

14:11

d it to the literal truth of the bible

14:14

in the bible says they're all such things as which

14:16

is sad shalt not suffer wix to

14:18

learn exactly the leviticus and then

14:20

you've got the which of endorphins conjures

14:22

up the shades the king sol on

14:25

the eve of his last battle you've got

14:27

is very powerful belief system

14:29

and if you challenges you in lots

14:31

of trouble

14:32

i'm really interested i did it

14:34

you can't prove the existence of god that's

14:36

much harder to do you can

14:38

attempt to approved existence of evil

14:40

by locating witches and that that in some

14:43

ways and affirmation of face

14:45

i think that dot fascinated so

14:47

what i'm looking for his horny women basic

14:49

with

14:51

cats well sometimes

14:54

i mean we do have a mean england's

14:56

great some in some respects scotland

14:58

but mainland it's great contribution

15:01

of which theory it's ,

15:03

seats in devils or satan

15:05

himself out of continental europe

15:08

in scotland off what a healthy sees

15:10

little familiar spirits cats

15:12

dogs fleas lions

15:15

and businesses they have paid because they

15:17

have genitals they have magpies

15:20

they have always little creatures these little aims

15:23

to go about them do their bidding so

15:26

that's where we get the com as archetype

15:28

of which is kept from and if you think about it

15:30

misses the thing that gets the business of which is into

15:32

trouble trouble do these

15:34

little animals do they steal

15:37

they thanks for food there in unexpected

15:40

places the trunk gain entry into houses

15:43

pretty much like the three by the women a bit

15:45

if women were doing them sounds were doing operational

15:47

the animals that daily round

15:50

of looking for food mirrors

15:52

that of the poor women themselves in the

15:54

town

15:55

tell me about these women and dembele

15:57

talk about their little families

15:59

they differed is it doesn't really benefit

16:03

what happened to take this off

16:04

well wanna is is again

16:06

to go back to familiar spirits we

16:08

have a magpie rest being

16:11

and tapping into window and getting ninety

16:13

eight's passport begins it's

16:15

a gets in of the window probably looking

16:17

for shiny object it's a stricken

16:20

sounds of a merchant family of shopkeepers

16:23

and grace thomas' the unmarried

16:26

sister of the woman of a house

16:28

has tightened sick to abandon the chamber

16:30

of friends though dying overnight

16:33

the magpie comes around it

16:35

startled some when the cleaning up the bedchamber

16:38

and of course it flies cement when terrified

16:41

before they get it and now

16:44

when the calming down on those

16:46

you know that total lays under

16:48

control

16:50

rehashing the story downstairs

16:52

as a scripting in a scraping from

16:55

just behind the door for the house

16:57

on the fleet opens on there is

16:59

temperance lloyd the better woman obviously

17:02

eavesdropping now if see them only

17:04

stop to explain things

17:06

mother gone really differently but she runs

17:09

off than the high street

17:11

an iphone six again they associate

17:13

they presence of the woman with the bird

17:16

something has been trying to get trying is

17:19

the better woman is the birds the bird

17:21

is nine missouri the devil the poor

17:23

woman is a which so that's

17:25

where snacks line

17:27

how old is tempered slide who issue

17:29

a lot younger than people used to

17:31

think she was she was a woman or a point

17:33

in her sixties and the lot of a pamphlet

17:36

say she was a lot older into ratings

17:38

but if you think about she'd been

17:40

in receipt of terrorists cia

17:42

she'd been in absolute poverty

17:45

for just over twenty years she's

17:47

an abandoned woman the kids and a husband

17:50

high tailing off the other

17:52

well settler community into businesses

17:54

it comes among the coal and sees

17:56

left behind for whatever reason so

17:58

hard labor poverty

18:01

not enough to eat know warmth

18:04

says you can see it's taken it's

18:06

toll when justice north

18:08

is one of the great villains and his brother

18:11

come to write down the story of a bit

18:13

of had witches they talk about

18:15

them looking like the archetype

18:18

thirty finances wanted to find three

18:20

more decrepit broken down garrulous

18:22

women in the whole of a nice it

18:25

couldn't have done any better define

18:27

these three women's temperance lloyd season

18:29

or edwards and mary trembles

18:31

oh

18:33

saddam temperance lloyd she

18:35

hasn't aged well so too hard life

18:37

yeah

18:38

she hangs out with magpies apart less

18:41

who would he as it's that you saturday get roped

18:43

into this

18:43

the other to lose nothing actually to

18:46

associate temperance with the other two

18:48

what you do find in ,

18:50

world of haves and have nots where the rich

18:52

getting richer the poor getting along for

18:55

us is that very often

18:57

the doesn't take two minutes souls

18:59

to come to the conclusion why this may be the case

19:02

very often when in fact together

19:04

a protect protect a protected

19:07

them and other kinds of physical assault on

19:09

abuse see see this in the pool

19:11

books for benefit the very often

19:13

poor women were hung around

19:16

in two or three temperance lloyd

19:18

was quite clearly the most articulate

19:21

the most striking

19:24

she's always referred in the pamphlet literature

19:26

as the great wage the single

19:28

day says as being perfectly resolute

19:30

being a dealings now that's dealings bit of a project

19:33

norman that she's seen as the sort of the main

19:35

one the other two women season

19:37

or edwards and married trembles knew

19:40

each other quite well a may impact

19:42

together season or edwards is season woman

19:44

have the service to fool the

19:46

only one is born in bit a third she

19:49

may even though she was illegitimate

19:51

which was illegitimate fake kind of thing to

19:53

carry around with you in that period by

19:56

human this is human puritan see trading

19:58

man she makes the pretty

20:00

good marriage to a local guy she

20:02

has a family so she's doing all as

20:04

comes to things that women

20:06

are expected to do during that period

20:09

unfortunately the play comes along

20:12

synesthesia husband's takes away

20:14

takes couple of our heads and very

20:16

and very without a welfare state

20:19

she thrown back upon the parish

20:21

and the poor right very very quickly

20:24

so she somebody who was reasonably

20:26

comfortable who to through

20:28

no fault of her own for sheer luck

20:31

is literally faggot married trembles

20:34

is someone we know least about

20:36

because she's more or less silences

20:38

damaged individual she was the child

20:41

of tigers who would probably

20:43

come from the north of ireland again there are a protestant

20:45

family but she'd probably no

20:48

no comfort for a whole lifelong

20:50

so her parents are begging in the deferred

20:52

she's more or less what you call a professional

20:55

bagger she's and married so you

20:57

can see what begins to friendlies

20:59

women's is none of them have

21:01

a family network and none

21:03

of them have a male figure that they

21:05

can reach out to for superman know

21:08

didn't have to be a husband or know we do

21:10

that you know he was a very patriarchal

21:12

society but the don't have

21:14

a record that any man in any

21:16

kind of authority who could speaker from of

21:18

prevent her from exactly the whole story

21:21

is one of vulnerability actually

21:22

when they all homeless

21:24

well as a beautiful victorian

21:26

picture a lovely was a color of

21:28

supposedly the which is house

21:30

in this idea was it will lives at the top of the time

21:32

but the place is faulty grand for

21:35

the classes with i showed on there is

21:37

some evidence to suggest he punched

21:39

in the three women living together i

21:41

think there is some evidence to suggest that

21:43

temperance lloyd probably have

21:45

kind of some lodgings at the top of the town

21:47

because the airiness with which people

21:50

thought she could sort of over local see

21:52

that doings if you look a bit

21:54

if it is really states and v living at the

21:56

top he could pretty much see what was going

21:58

on without any repost them we

22:00

know she supposedly nice the devil

22:03

i'm gonna stone line when she's carrying

22:05

a burden on us incredibly steep

22:08

slope , get up even today you get

22:10

out of breath if he leaves a little a sensor

22:12

and had a fail so if

22:15

she was walking up play tends to suggests

22:17

he lives at the top the other two may have lived

22:19

together their habitation

22:21

to get raided by the parish constables

22:24

and it was so me go when they look for evidence

22:26

only found with a little scrap of letha

22:29

with little pinpricks in it that they

22:31

thought thought to

22:33

do with magic to do with image magic the that

22:35

was actually the skin of gross

22:37

thomas that they were picking out with thorns

22:40

of noodles to cram to how

22:42

was so these of women

22:44

on the margins of society

22:46

they both for the most major things

22:49

season or of woods and mary

22:51

trembles of bro thing because the

22:53

fool out with the woman of a household

22:56

when they go begging for quite a little

22:58

meat and a bit of tobacco they

23:00

scavenge that's how they survive

23:04

black for that they really have

23:06

nobody to could possibly stand up for them and

23:08

they are already gonna be quite stigmatized

23:10

live in when homeless people still

23:13

the much

23:13

day on a lot alone back

23:15

in the seventeenth century so

23:18

oh temperance has been linked to a magpie

23:20

flying around room how did

23:22

you the to get dragged into this they've just pissed

23:25

off this woman by saying some we have

23:27

some me

23:27

yeah hm bad luck and

23:29

its paws of a snooze it's not

23:31

simply men against women cities

23:34

a group of have much older

23:38

very very poor

23:40

childless in the sense they don't have

23:42

kids with some anymore

23:45

although married trembles didn't

23:47

have kids have any kind the

23:50

a childless their old that poor

23:52

ranged against if you like another

23:54

in crowds of young

23:57

relatively wealthy women kids

24:01

so thoroughly com

24:03

agenda tensions down not taking

24:05

message taking message of it because it operates the

24:07

whole different level

24:08

where is the essential dynamic

24:11

on the squabble going on in businesses

24:13

that focuses around charity for not

24:15

providing charity for them and

24:18

he does spread because we get to

24:20

other to other is the freebie the food which

24:22

is the were fines so we

24:24

get married beer and we get elizabeth

24:26

cathy who were also brought in for questioning

24:29

but what they has his family's

24:31

sake of husband's to speak for them

24:33

and co money and got kids

24:36

so they're not lox up

24:38

immediately unexamined

24:40

in the local jail for know

24:43

heightened by the mob

24:45

questioning them

24:47

effectively failed i'm allowed to

24:49

remain to remain no case

24:51

is dismissed really really quickly and

24:54

brushed under the carpet so it's a

24:56

whole thing of bathhouse versus have

24:58

nots

24:58

acting as really pomeroy said that you can

25:01

take and the new are at a witch trials

25:04

it's to simplify to say

25:06

it was just men hey in when it just wasn't

25:08

because women were a part of these accusations

25:11

well i don't i've heard some of the in iceland

25:13

ninety percent of which is her ex today

25:16

with men it was the same and

25:18

share your unseemly actually

25:20

in sweden the in sweden with money

25:22

to see the impact of books going

25:24

back to king james is the minority

25:26

in the stuff of this coming out of denmark swedish

25:29

, is worth almost

25:31

always meant to begin with and then

25:34

when you get the signs of demons

25:36

demonology coming in they

25:38

begin for local prosecutors

25:40

in a different why under

25:42

gender ratio flips they start running

25:45

and women women twenty odd years

25:48

so he's into see that the judiciary

25:50

have the loaded ideas loaded look for particular

25:52

suspects i'm when you look for something

25:54

buffer moons of file you tend to find

25:56

it

25:57

they do absolutely as

25:59

fast so these women

26:01

are accused a couple of it as rookies nanda

26:03

husband's when a excuse me when they went

26:05

oh alright the money yeah we know yeah

26:08

yeah we've got will invite you to a candlelight supper

26:10

and then they were likely those games have a pretty

26:12

good messes a little for will do so yeah

26:15

what is poor women accused

26:17

of doing wrong so the a range

26:19

of challenges against and it

26:21

comes from killing a local though unless

26:23

the stuff that builds particularly against temperance

26:26

lloyd because she'd been running for witchcraft

26:28

before in sixteen seventy one

26:30

more than ten years before sixteen

26:32

seventy nine and then sixty and eighty

26:34

two on one of the interesting things about

26:37

witchcraft trials is very often it's like

26:39

you know in the states the day three strikes near

26:41

and most people who hang

26:43

for the crime had been brutal seen

26:45

numerous times before the averages

26:48

work at really really ugly

26:50

for eight tons to be the third time you're

26:52

in big trouble it's just a first offense

26:55

will probably just get away with the caution

26:57

and a cost that you have to go on for in a quick

26:59

[unk] usa so this thing has been simmering

27:01

so temperance lord has got a name for

27:03

herself as a way chest and if

27:05

you think about the thing about begging if

27:07

you've got absolutely nothing else going

27:10

for you fear is the

27:12

last thing in the rumored see

27:14

a stop somebody attacking you see

27:17

and maybe means a difference between some

27:19

the throne you a penny or not throwing

27:21

you are planning a nice nice as to your

27:23

advantage and i think temperance probably

27:25

dates brings her from any links

27:28

to modern things we could maybe talk about

27:30

later about you know

27:32

modern ideas of aggressive begging because unfortunately

27:35

nothing much has changed so she gets a name

27:37

for being a waitress hung around on that

27:39

but a millstone for eleven years so

27:41

the child she begins to grow she'd

27:44

kill the local farmer it's

27:47

, sheep caused

27:49

a made to go blind while she

27:51

was churning milk seed

27:53

attacks grace thomas

27:56

cost of sufferings coasters bedroom

27:59

she said

27:59

capable of rising storm she caused

28:02

a young lad to fall from the reading of a ship

28:05

and , there is the other thing

28:07

that is added on to the charge sheet against

28:09

the women that they were in league with the devil

28:12

they met with the devil that the kenny

28:14

servants and he synthesis whole

28:16

idea that when you sign

28:18

your satanic packed with the devil when you become

28:20

a witch when for

28:23

the english silver you get your little info

28:26

familiar spirit your

28:28

, physiognomy changes

28:30

you no longer completely human

28:33

row the bunny murray seats

28:36

so your little imps conceptual

28:38

art

28:38

heard about these tapes these which

28:40

is t it's that normally crop up in the

28:42

janice

28:42

exactly that said yes cause it

28:44

is by people trying to prove that they're which is on

28:47

this is what happens to the three women a bit of

28:49

it's certainly to ten of probably to the other

28:51

two what if you can imagine today being stripped

28:53

says with a mobile watching it's

28:55

, be traumatizing to any building building

28:59

in terms of this is how

29:02

appalling things worse when

29:04

sam francis searched and sixteen seventy

29:06

one she doesn't have one

29:08

of these polyps these but

29:10

of course ten years like says he's a lot older

29:13

so precancerous gross

29:15

very often associated with women

29:18

is with kids are

29:20

there in the elderly and

29:23

lo and behold when they strip searches

29:25

in the jail businesses and it's women

29:27

who do this you know it's midwives to do

29:29

this so again that's another myth midwives

29:32

tended not to be which is that

29:34

tended to be the people detecting which is

29:36

obvious for the sake of me

29:40

and we were seems we're

29:42

supposed to supposed know if you think about

29:44

it vive completely dehumanize

29:46

these women already because he said no longer

29:49

fully human he , become

29:51

something else else

29:53

it doesn't really matter so much what you do some

29:57

the north east sister the north

29:59

up for the community let people

30:01

who have not only condemned

30:04

themselves to were wrong path

30:06

in this world cause they have

30:08

completely rules and sounds i have any

30:10

chance to salvation the next and

30:13

that was that pretty scary thought for a

30:15

man for woman in sentencing century

30:23

i'll be back with john in just a few

30:42

one thing the i do see

30:44

a militarism blocked

30:45

it up not the right to expression for at temperance

30:48

got an interesting

30:50

rap sheet their which covers murder

30:52

and blindness because some of the witch trials

30:54

it stuff like they turned a bottle of

30:56

milk sour or the made a dog

30:59

bark loudly and it's despite

31:01

first of all that shit witchcraft is this if

31:03

you were awaits a new are in league with satan

31:06

you put a big an object to do

31:08

hey bigger than that

31:09

that again is a tragedy about businesses

31:12

the if you think about it witchcraft

31:14

is seen as a female prime because

31:17

the bad stuff happens around the has com

31:19

feelings about punches as is a male

31:21

crown yeah goes

31:24

there as in the countryside who's taking

31:26

the has of the he's excited

31:28

sure you look for fellow with a gun he

31:31

think of a crime scene conundrum

31:33

us east the child take said kim

31:35

the cradle is the bus or refuses

31:37

to churn if your animals start dying

31:40

you , for the people

31:43

who around and women by and large

31:45

tend to be around the house in the home

31:47

so that gives you another set of suspects

31:50

the as he say the tragedy and businesses

31:53

on the thing temperance louis absolutely

31:55

lashes out of bounds is

31:57

the fact that won't need doing a wolf

31:59

being accused of doing is

32:02

pretty lane stuff

32:04

by announced a new fact some

32:06

of the demon illogical rice's say

32:08

that this is because the devil has no real

32:11

power because he can't be seen

32:13

to be a proper rival to golf so

32:16

all the devil can do is

32:18

convince which is that they do

32:20

they bad stuff when i see

32:22

is sort of stolen power of

32:24

providence's from god that

32:26

is actually reaching is that the devil is somehow

32:29

knitting a little bit of power to

32:31

do all of this from the almighty

32:33

there it was noted at the time then the people

32:35

going at this is a crap spell on that

32:37

was wow that was the logic

32:39

reading com so

32:41

it's really sophisticated

32:44

double thank all the time

32:46

it's kind of a one million on the other

32:48

thing is a lot of the people believed

32:50

in which hunting thunder about less

32:52

that people start to notice

32:55

that the people being brought in as witches

32:57

of melancholy though people we'd say

32:59

today who had depression so

33:03

the argument to get them off them off time these

33:06

learn english because of poverty

33:09

because of illness because the senility so

33:12

, people agenda six and so sites

33:14

yes they are poor

33:17

and miserable because they're the most

33:19

enlightened people anybody would ever

33:21

think had any power from the devil

33:23

black rifle go to the rich and famous

33:26

that's what we'd expect but because he certainly

33:29

he goes to the pool and

33:31

that depression is warm symbol

33:34

of a slide towards the

33:36

demonic

33:38

wow i saw a some

33:40

mental acrobatics to justify

33:43

that

33:43

one and that's what they were fighting with us point

33:45

so pernicious unpersuasive unlike

33:48

any truths that avail shooting

33:50

for a society that's why

33:52

is so a sect is

33:55

so deeply unpleasant

33:57

deeply unpleasant because it's not

33:59

a rush

34:00

the logic without

34:03

as a luxury by solipsistic it goes round

34:05

and so are you going to find all the gulf

34:08

but there is a logic yeah

34:10

wow what happened to these

34:13

poor women i'm going against the didn't me a

34:15

very happy end and they weren't

34:16

well no the first thing they

34:18

do the temperance doesn't do

34:20

and sixteen seventy one is they admit

34:23

that gales now the

34:25

mobile which is a big mistake

34:27

you know if you go mcfaul you're in trouble

34:30

so , is

34:32

tightening by the constables than the

34:34

most get hold of us when they run down to

34:36

the local church say

34:39

burrow spillover minister as

34:41

he doesn't wanna be anywhere near it's a

34:44

name kind of twist his arm

34:46

into making him instructors

34:48

say the lord's prayer and ,

34:50

fluffs the lines are not

34:52

there is another little proof know if you

34:54

think about it this is a woman

34:56

who's got a baying mob behind

34:58

the is being shoved around the strings

35:02

strings , and she's unexpected

35:05

was perfectly as to which

35:07

she was welsh how good

35:09

is her english is a second language

35:11

and probably also

35:14

the impact of age but also

35:16

the impact

35:18

she came from a purist and backgrounds

35:20

and it's a case whether the new wording

35:23

of the new prayer book

35:26

so the anglican church and golf

35:28

actually sitting with what she'd learned as

35:30

a girl in wales so for

35:32

these whole reason she flipped salons

35:35

it seems another proof the which

35:37

marks the seen as proof that concessions

35:40

people eavesdrop on particularly

35:42

susanna and mary when they're in the lock

35:44

up and here than squabbling with each

35:46

other servers enough

35:49

the send up a report to exeter

35:51

for the a size is to actually

35:54

get a trial know in terms of

35:56

trump procedure it's really different

35:58

to what we think of today you don't have

36:00

a defense lawyer in affirms

36:03

off the a sizes that's where

36:05

that's couplet judges come down from london

36:07

and try batch cases some

36:10

of these cases what heard

36:12

in remarkably short times

36:14

the first case the temperance lloyd

36:17

in exeter and sixteen seventy one

36:19

when she's running is probably

36:21

only in the courtroom for ten minutes

36:24

because if you look at the number of people who were

36:26

brought through in that day assuming

36:29

they have a south east and six

36:31

hours you do the math some

36:33

you divide it up a workout

36:35

that he was probably five ten minutes

36:37

but earring facilities because

36:39

so

36:40

in all of these cases it's not

36:42

what we think of we don't have

36:45

a trial record of exeter so

36:47

we don't wanna know

36:49

wha golden and phones what we do

36:51

have is the record of the pre

36:53

trial meeting where if you

36:56

like the bureaucrats get together and do the

36:58

whole trading and it was that

37:00

the to others suspected which is what

37:02

kind of let go on the

37:04

justices have justices have for benefit

37:07

god called thomas guest basically

37:09

throws and hills the other

37:11

one thomasville they throw

37:14

three women in modern parlance

37:16

under the wheels of the bus in i'm

37:18

the type then fine i

37:20

, in the

37:22

sense of the people of did a third

37:25

they just want them gone for their communities

37:27

the things could climb down molson

37:30

foregone conclusion that they would hang

37:33

on i think this think this rubber that they

37:35

told themselves

37:37

the missing it i mean what else could have any

37:40

to ask him if they said gilson

37:42

and again you've got this framing where we

37:44

know the mahfouz out against them in exeter

37:47

there are stories that when the judges

37:49

horses and carriages role

37:52

of flynn said the drawbridge towards

37:54

exit successful the horses suddenly

37:56

stopped them wouldn't deliver the drawbridge

37:58

and the month six which

38:01

is about magic in some

38:03

said the horses so the troll couldn't take

38:05

place

38:06

well i don't need any more proof stops absolute

38:08

twelve schools whispering there we go

38:11

so thoroughly reasons with the mob

38:13

is against the nuts the

38:15

the guilty verdict comes in

38:17

from judge ravens who is seen as

38:20

the villain other things with

38:22

, justification but then

38:24

they had a right to appeal

38:27

appeal it's very often which cases

38:29

where on appeal the convictions

38:32

or no cost but that kind

38:34

of thrown into the long grass know

38:37

you end up doing it's harm in jail

38:39

eventually basically

38:41

the death penalty isn't carried out and you

38:43

can go on your way that they're

38:45

all grounds for appeal sisters

38:47

manhattan to the bit of had witches and he's

38:49

happens because lord because rights

38:53

icing one of the most deadly

38:56

unpleasant political letters

38:58

you could ever wishful so

39:00

bearing in mind easier the judge in the circuit

39:03

course he could say these women

39:05

need give a nod and a winged it

39:07

doesn't matter and what he says in

39:09

his letter to the secretary's day emissions

39:11

you would assume so he was would

39:14

says you and i am from another world

39:16

will learned when not like them all we

39:19

don't believe in always witchcraft stuff

39:22

all , these women

39:24

are you know it he trots out the thing about the

39:26

being garrulous an elderly and

39:29

beneath his contempt so disdain

39:31

but he says says got to realize

39:33

though how this is gonna play in public opinion

39:36

things a difficult for the king is

39:38

charles a charles the country

39:40

or the some is pissing on the brink a revolution

39:43

you've got monmouth's in the west

39:45

country who eventually challenge

39:47

the last for the crown you've got

39:50

the republicans gathering arms he

39:52

got people slipping in an hour holland

39:54

you've got better food which was

39:57

got better much of a republican sounds

40:00

the back of a civil war all

40:02

the kind of people who supported english republic

40:04

is still last a money saying is we

40:06

gotta teach him a lesson

40:08

not all across the country

40:10

down let's throw these women

40:13

to one side because that is an email

40:16

server which enough which enough for minutes

40:19

that is horrible

40:20

exactly so it's the perfect

40:23

bit of unpleasant real policy

40:25

from this tory grandee

40:27

who is made his name as a political

40:29

judge a more was happening in this town

40:31

before the revolution and sixteen eighty eight

40:33

to eighty nine charles ascendance

40:36

and to send his homeless

40:39

very very cunning plan which

40:41

has to politicize the judiciary he

40:43

see it today the best analogy would phase

40:46

one of the rights for women

40:48

in america to abortion been

40:50

overturned because ,

40:52

and his friends pack the judiciary this

40:55

is was no saddened insurance ascend

40:57

do in england and lasting seventies

41:00

and sixty nine seats for the point

41:02

people most famously like a

41:04

huge difference in the west country

41:07

who have come up through this ultra

41:09

roiling some after the civil war

41:11

was that was servants of the crown and

41:13

they will deliver any judgments the crown

41:15

once and that's what move that's

41:18

what slam

41:19

they were hanged

41:20

the hanged on twenty fifth of august

41:22

sixteen eighty two all english

41:24

which is hang sun burns

41:27

burn in scotland they burn in germany said

41:29

burn in the all a man they don't

41:31

burn in england because english common law

41:34

is different for the actual promo

41:36

witchcraft so they go

41:38

to the gallows but this of ruben that's how

41:40

he doesn't go to plan one

41:43

of the features a bit of it had been the

41:45

appearance of witch hunters i'm

41:47

one of these characters and to make a name

41:49

for himself the reverend hand turns

41:52

up at the sky falls and accuses

41:54

them again but he doesn't get ready

41:56

when they're already

41:58

with that

41:59

the next in the new what's the trick

42:01

do insane the or which is we know

42:03

with that's why we're here

42:04

what he wants you to do was make his

42:06

name uncovering the plot

42:09

so he could publish a pamphlet saying he

42:11

only advice as have finished them

42:13

you know this was his x factor moment

42:15

if you like rise of what happens in this is

42:17

the terror of it they save temperance

42:20

for , last tax because she is

42:22

the grand down the big one headline

42:24

us the headline us so easy to

42:27

the merchandise had two months

42:29

of gonna the ladder before before

42:31

know that mary trembles

42:34

was so terrified she had to be strapped

42:36

onto a donkey to guess of

42:38

guess fantasy was putting

42:40

up a fight and wouldn't go and screaming

42:43

so she's the first one to go season

42:45

or edwards goes next so

42:48

temperance lloyd is in the last minutes

42:51

of allies with these other to pull women

42:53

swinging above swinging had women

42:55

swinging stockpile

42:57

the foot all the

42:59

ladder and they have another go issa

43:02

come back down we want you full and

43:04

frank confessions and she

43:06

pulls a bit of a flanker

43:08

even under duress that

43:10

what she says is yes

43:12

my house cursed

43:15

child on the child afterwards

43:17

died you , this was her

43:19

bad local through her life she had

43:21

a little basket of apples and the to

43:24

reach charles stolen an apple and

43:26

she said words after it and

43:29

a few weeks later the child died

43:31

so she's haunted bonus but

43:33

she says i was incapable of

43:35

racing storms or couldn't make the boy

43:37

full from the must have a ship and

43:40

have a source about this for minutes and

43:42

they go on and on about this and

43:44

she denies it

43:46

oh in a way the

43:49

witch hunters and the pamphleteers

43:51

didn't get this idea of the full on satanic

43:54

conspiracy that they wanted and

43:56

some mom would com has denied

43:59

a full performances i thought they

44:01

deserved i'm in that

44:04

twist in the tail i think is

44:06

the beginning of the rehabilitation of

44:09

that benefit which is the amazon

44:11

brewing quote by one feminist

44:14

writer about this that says

44:16

you know unfortunately we

44:18

know far more about the

44:21

word says marginalized women

44:23

in the seventeenth century for witch trials

44:26

than we do for many of the source because it's the only

44:28

time that speak relatively freely

44:31

when , was always the case but

44:33

in the last five minutes of allies and

44:35

prince lloyd and season or edwards it hits

44:37

back as well are able

44:39

to free themselves and actually man

44:41

the former defense they were denied

44:44

under the law

44:47

it's such a sub

44:49

story an unfair

44:52

and i didn't want to do the anger because they're gone

44:54

and everyone's gods and if i can ask

44:56

you one question for a hostile

44:57

com tp there all day

44:59

see echoes of any of this now modern

45:01

society because we'd love to think that

45:03

all would pass this was so far away this

45:05

the deepening that was still living in

45:08

the shadows of some other stuff when when a string

45:10

and which is but no but i think

45:12

it doesn't are you two minutes thought to think

45:14

of other groups who escaped can sit within

45:16

our society for the poll on the

45:19

marginalized the people making their

45:21

way across the channel and little things

45:24

that were open i think

45:26

to similar waves of persecution

45:29

the out just underneath the surface

45:32

you don't have to look very far now look

45:34

for the most recent criminal justice

45:36

act in over fans was

45:38

being from public assembly in

45:40

protest and alaskans offense

45:43

and i say the thing to remember his were

45:45

in a weird common sense for anybody

45:48

who is interested in multan

45:50

revised witchcraft there

45:52

is a palpable tension between

45:56

the legacy

45:58

of enlightenment which is being kicked

46:00

a pillar to post which is

46:02

rational with cheese

46:05

religiously tolerant which is

46:07

free thinking which says

46:10

which is have no power this was

46:12

a great crime and

46:14

, of the more new agey things that say

46:17

actually these things did have

46:19

a fights magic does work says

46:22

as a bizarre sanctions that it's only ironically

46:25

through the establishment of

46:27

enlightenment values rural society

46:29

that people can help religious freedom

46:32

today or cancels designated

46:34

for switches on frequency

46:36

do take on this sort of anger

46:38

means the marvelous the new mom actually

46:41

is the for women who is no no comfort

46:43

for the last us know

46:45

sisters it in their own lives the

46:47

way the business of which is have been commemorated

46:49

since the nineteen nineties has been

46:52

for domini throws lost

46:54

a celebration songs of the ground

46:56

which is t policy that jacket

46:58

you know through as as you know in the grounds

47:00

of exeter castle where they would tried

47:03

all the little girl or actions

47:05

that would dunbar local group of which is

47:07

to commemorate them leaving

47:09

bundles of flowers so

47:11

the spot where they were hanged which is now up to

47:13

the a garage with by bus stop

47:16

and agitating for a memorial plaque

47:19

in which ironic that the only monuments

47:21

women and businesses is

47:23

to the witches

47:24

the women are coming

47:26

or do so as it like

47:28

that is so complex

47:29

so it's all about women's

47:31

commemoration i think blank slate

47:34

and the air is where i would kind of tease

47:36

out for yes the silver lining

47:38

in the thing to defray the angus

47:40

that if you think about all of these terrible

47:43

stores we , having

47:46

a podcast today with you to

47:48

talk about load know know

47:50

not talking about the secretary

47:52

of state he didn't give them the them

47:55

when we even talking about shells

47:57

the second necessarily still

47:59

less the judiciary and bidder so the

48:02

all the people who hunted them to the gallows

48:04

with celebrating remembering the

48:06

three poor women a pitiful whose

48:09

lives tell us more about

48:11

society on a far more interesting

48:14

and redeeming than any of those

48:16

the that has the cases

48:17

ah johnny color dot is

48:20

the most pleasant place to leave it thank

48:22

you so

48:22

the majority mistake tell the story

48:25

was been great pleasure many cincinnati make

48:27

stingray subtlety of any

48:29

time

48:34

thank you

48:35

thank you so much to john for sharing

48:37

your encyclopedia

48:39

knowledge about this case he was fascinating

48:41

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48:43

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49:19

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