0:08

Have you ever woken up from a dream, walked

0:10

around and then realize you're still dreaming?

0:13

Yes, And it's made me wonder like, is reality

0:16

actually part of a dream? Like an inception

0:18

or the matrix? How do we know if we are

0:20

living in a dream or even

0:22

in someone else's dream, or like a low

0:24

resolution A bit video game. Hi,

0:35

I'm Daniel and I'm Jorge, and this

0:37

is Daniel and Jorge explain the

0:39

universe, ex playing the universe, the

0:41

whole entire universe,

0:43

all of it. Now you might be wondering,

0:46

who are these guys who are gonna explain the universe

0:48

to you? Yeah? Who are we? Daniel? Who

0:50

are we? Anyway? That's a good question. Well,

0:53

I'm a particle physicist. I do

0:55

my research at the Large Hadron

0:57

Collider in Geneva, where we smash particles

1:00

together and trying to figure out what is the universe

1:02

made out of and how does this all work? And mostly

1:05

enjoy getting to play with enormous ten

1:07

billion dollar taxpayer funded toys.

1:10

Nice, And I'm a former

1:12

robotics researcher. And now I'm a cartoonist.

1:15

And where do you do most of your work or is it

1:17

a fancy government lab. Yes, I

1:19

do most of my work in my pajamas

1:22

in my garage. Um,

1:25

usually starting late in the morning. And

1:30

how does a roboticist end up becoming a

1:32

cartoonist? That is a really great question.

1:34

And I have to tell you that, Um,

1:36

my parents are also very

1:39

worried about that whole career

1:41

trajectory. But now, yeah,

1:44

they're worried about their investment in your in your

1:46

education. There. I think they're just concerned

1:48

about my financial well

1:50

being. But now I used to

1:53

be uh, I used to be I have a PhD

1:55

in robotics. I used to do research

1:57

on legged robots and robots and could run

1:59

and like jump around. Um.

2:01

But then at some point I started drawing comics and I really

2:04

like that and it kind of became more popular

2:06

than my research, and so I draw

2:08

something called PhD comics, which

2:10

is how we met because I used to be a huge fan

2:13

of PhD comics. Yeah, and um,

2:15

and I used to be a big fan of of like

2:17

the universe and so so

2:20

until you know, it's almost

2:22

all of the universe now, and but

2:24

the universe is sort of where we overlap, right.

2:27

I do research about the universe, and you try

2:29

to explain the universe in your science, communication

2:32

and all that stuff, and so I feel like we have

2:34

a significant overlap there. Yeah. I just

2:36

really like talking to people who know

2:38

a lot of stuff about something and just

2:40

kind of learning new things, you know. I always I

2:42

always get my mind blown when I talked

2:45

to someone who's a researcher on

2:48

something, because it's just kind of amazing,

2:50

like how much we don't know about stuff.

2:52

You know, you sort of walk around feeling like, hey, we

2:54

got everything figured out. Um.

2:56

But I always love finding out what people are still

2:58

like wondering about, and I

3:01

love pretending to know stuff about stuff

3:03

and blowing people's minds. So it's a perfect

3:05

setup right now. I think that some

3:07

of these questions are really interesting and

3:09

they're really accessible, and my

3:11

hope is that people out there will be listening

3:13

to this stuff and think, oh, man, I wish I could

3:16

have done physics in high school, or some

3:18

kid who's who's listening to it out there it gets inspired

3:21

and thinks about, um potentially going

3:23

into physics, because there's a huge number

3:25

of really deep, fascinating questions

3:27

that we still have to answer. Like the topic

3:29

of today's podcast Yeah Today on the program

3:34

is the universe a simulation the

3:37

whole universe. I love the

3:39

size of these questions we're asking. Is the whole

3:41

universe simulation? Yeah?

3:44

That's uh so, that's a crazy question. It's basically

3:47

the question like are we living in the matrix?

3:49

Well, first of all, the matrix is ridiculous

3:52

because at its basic premise

3:54

it didn't work at all, you know, like batteries

3:57

what I mean, come on, humans consume and or

4:00

they don't produce energy. So the whole fundamental

4:02

underlying assumption of the matrix boom,

4:05

toss it out the window. But the

4:07

core idea there that did

4:09

we could be immersed in a deeply realistic

4:12

virtual reality that we're not aware of,

4:14

right, that we think reality, that

4:16

what we're experiencing is reality, when when actually

4:19

it's something simulated. That's the

4:21

fascinating way, Like what we see and what

4:24

we hear and what we touch is not like

4:26

actually real, it's

4:28

just like a a computer feeding

4:31

as these sensations to us. Yeah,

4:33

and only I think recently has this

4:35

possibility even arisen because

4:37

we do now have virtual reality, right,

4:40

you can't have fairly immersive experiences

4:42

and people extrapolate from that. It's getting

4:44

more real and real the simulated things we

4:46

can the things we can simulate. Absolutely.

4:49

I had a virtual reality experience a couple of weeks ago.

4:51

I went to a go kart place with my son

4:54

and I went into a virtual reality

4:56

go kart racing thing where you sit in a chair and

4:58

the chair shakes in your car bumps

5:00

into stuff, and um, it's totally

5:03

immersive. And you know, every

5:05

time I was about to crash into the wall, which was

5:07

a lot of times, I found myself like throwing

5:09

my arms up to protect myself and ducking

5:11

and stuff like that, because it

5:13

really it felt realistic.

5:15

It definitely triggered all of my instincts and absolutely,

5:18

I mean I would have wet myself ahead and pid

5:20

just beforehand. Well.

5:22

I had a very intense virtual reality

5:24

experience too recently. I

5:26

I am. I read the news and

5:30

you think, I hope that because

5:32

this is crazy.

5:35

Um, but yeah, so that's that's the idea,

5:38

is that that's the question. Is the universe

5:40

a simulation, Like is

5:43

what we see around is real? Or is

5:45

it Are we like sitting in a vat of liquids

5:48

floating somewhere in some alien

5:50

beings um

5:52

factory, being fed

5:55

all of these sensations and

5:57

sights and sounds just

6:00

kind of keep us happy. For some reason, you

6:02

make it sound so sinister. Why can't it

6:04

be like a cozy, warm, cuddly environment

6:06

where we're like nestled in a sunny garden

6:09

somewhere and being fed this beautiful, wonderful

6:11

universe of simulations. Right, But you just have

6:14

to be like, we're experiments in some

6:16

you know, we're subjects in some sinister experiments

6:19

somewhere. Well, why else would somebody do that? So

6:21

let's take a step back. So this question

6:23

has been kind of very recently

6:26

come. I mean, it's always sort of been around in science fiction,

6:28

but it's sort of become serious,

6:31

lady, right, like Elon Musk is wondering

6:33

about it. Right, And so we went out in the

6:35

street. We asked people if they thought

6:37

they were living in a simulation. So

6:40

think for a moment yourself, listener, do you think

6:42

the universe could be a simulation? Here's what people

6:44

on the street had to say. We're

6:46

like my trich or somewhere that it

6:49

could be. But I doubt it. I

6:51

doubt it, you know. But it's because I

6:53

don't want to tell myself that everything I do is

6:57

the universe seems so let's

7:00

normal. It doesn't seem like that could be fossible.

7:03

So most people thought maybe it was a possibility,

7:06

but nobody really firmly believed

7:08

it. Nobody thought absolutely, I'm convinced.

7:10

Yeah, most people seem very skeptical, but

7:12

a lot of them allowed the possibility. Right, Well, you

7:14

never know, but maybe sort of a thing. Yeah,

7:17

And I have to mean I fall into like Kemp,

7:19

I'm pretty skeptical about this idea. Uh.

7:22

And I like one of the answers that they

7:24

said, which is like, I don't know if that's possible.

7:27

Everything seems really realistic. Yeah,

7:29

that's a nice argument, and it's

7:31

just because the universe around you feel

7:33

so detailed. I mean you look at the tiniest

7:36

little water droplets and the light sparkling

7:38

off of it. It seems like an impossible

7:40

problem to write a simulation that it's

7:42

this realistic. It seems

7:45

impossible, right, Yeah, But I don't know if that

7:47

that's really very persuasive argument, because

7:49

computers are getting faster and faster, and you just

7:51

extrapolate from what we can do now

7:53

to what we can do in twenty years. I mean, look at

7:55

how video games have improved from like Super

7:58

Mario two super realistic

8:00

racing games. Now it's incredible how much

8:02

more realistic they are, from like Pong to

8:05

like, uh yeah, like World

8:07

of Warcraft. There's so realistic now. Absolutely,

8:10

So I don't really think the it's impossible

8:12

argument is very strong also because

8:15

you have to imagine if somebody is running our universe

8:18

as a simulation, who knows what kind of computational

8:20

powers they have, right, um,

8:22

and and if they are their universe,

8:25

the one that our universe is running as a simulation

8:28

inside of doesn't have to follow the same

8:30

laws as our universe. Right If we're

8:32

in a video game inside somebody else's universe,

8:34

our video game can have rules that don't exist

8:36

outside the video game. Right, So they

8:39

like F equals m A or general

8:41

relativity that could have been something they just made

8:44

up because they thought they would be fun

8:47

or interesting, you know, like like we

8:49

like we create video games with crazy

8:52

physical rules. You know, Mario can jump half

8:54

of the screen, he can jump twenty feet up in the air.

8:57

Um, so maybe that's

8:59

that's why our physical laws are. They're

9:01

just kind of like, hey, let's make this fun universe

9:03

where efquals are a kind of

9:05

the idea that's exactly right. Yeah, that's

9:07

exactly right. And I think that's partially

9:10

the origin of this idea. You know, what is

9:12

physics doing? Ask yourself that physics

9:14

is trying to figure out what are the

9:16

rules of this universe? Right, what

9:19

are the underlying code that runs

9:21

this universe? And so now that

9:23

we actually have pretty powerful computer programs,

9:25

people wonder, well, if you were in a computer

9:27

program and you were trying to figure

9:29

out what the rules of that simulated universe

9:32

were, you'd essentially be trying to understand

9:35

what was the physics coded into that universe.

9:38

So in some sense, yeah, you'd be a

9:40

physicist exactly. Physicists are trying to reverse

9:43

engineer the source code of the universe.

9:45

Right, regardless of whether you believe the universe

9:48

is real or a simulation, it does

9:50

seem to follow some rules, right. So

9:52

it's like when you first it's amazing that we can even discover

9:54

those. So it's kind of like when you first play

9:56

Super Mario or something and you're

9:58

you're just jumping around and move around trying to figure

10:00

out how Mari moves. You're essentially

10:03

like being a physicist in

10:05

that world. That's exactly

10:07

right. Everybody who plays a video game for the first

10:09

time is being I think that's

10:11

exactly everybody

10:14

who plays video games. That's

10:17

right. That you just gave a whole generation

10:20

of listeners a reason to stop doing their physics homework

10:22

and turn on their video Thank you. The

10:24

PC is only valued inside the video

10:26

game, that's right. But

10:28

you know, I think that there's a natural curiosity

10:31

there, right. The reason video games are

10:33

fun is because you get to explore a new world

10:35

and figure out it's rules and learn to master it. Also,

10:38

the best science fiction is the same way. The

10:40

best science fiction. You're thrown into

10:42

a fictional universe and the rules could

10:45

be different. Usually they are, and you

10:47

have to figure them out. You know, bad science fiction

10:49

they tell you in boring narration overtones

10:51

exactly how things work. But in good science fiction,

10:53

you have to puzzle it out for yourself. You have to deduce

10:56

what the history is and what the rules are, and how things

10:58

work in this fictional universe. Have to be like an

11:00

explorer, like an experiment er. Yeah.

11:03

I love how we're describing physicists as these like avant

11:05

gode explorers as

11:08

the couch potatoes who play video games. That's that's

11:11

basically not

11:13

that not that different from reality built couch

11:15

potatoes. Well, you

11:17

know, I find it really interesting that you

11:19

so you're a serious physicist. I mean, like, um,

11:22

you know, you you're like a professor,

11:24

and you you've you don't sort of

11:26

scoff at this idea immediately, you know, like

11:29

I feel like it's a crazy idea, but it's like something

11:31

physicists uh uh,

11:34

actually sort of, they say, are forced

11:36

to say, yeah, it's possible. Right. Well,

11:38

I think part of the job of being a physicist,

11:40

and I would take exception with being called too

11:42

serious. Seriously, part

11:45

of the job of being a physicist is being prepared

11:47

for making mind blowing discoveries.

11:49

You know, I think best kind of physics discoveries

11:52

are the ones that completely change

11:54

your view of the universe. You know that discover

11:56

where you discover the universe works really differently

11:59

from the way you did, And so

12:01

you have to be open to crazy new ideas

12:03

if you even have a chance to make a crazy

12:05

discovery. I guess by serious physicist,

12:08

I mean an employed physicist. That's

12:11

right, I still have a job that

12:13

makes me a physicist. On that

12:15

note, let's take a quick break I

12:29

like what you said earlier, which is that you know

12:32

our universe right now, the

12:34

one where even if it was not a simulation,

12:37

it's sort of like a simulation in that

12:40

that's kind of what a simulation is. It's like there's

12:43

laws and then uh,

12:46

you figure out what's going to happen in the next

12:48

time instant based on those laws. That's

12:50

I mean, that's basically what a simulation is, right,

12:53

right, But is the universe like a simulation

12:56

or is a simulation like the universe?

12:58

I mean we can think simulations

13:01

I know, or Ay

13:04

says whoa. I mean, we invented

13:07

simulations in order to model example

13:09

universes, right, We said, what would happen

13:12

if the universe was like this, Well, let's

13:14

see, and then we build a little simulation

13:16

and we test it out. So simulations are built

13:18

to mirror the universe on purpose,

13:21

and and we code in the rules

13:24

of the universe in that simulation because

13:26

we think there are rules of the universe, and we could have

13:28

a whole other conversation about like why

13:31

does the universe have rules? Why

13:33

do those rules seem to be fairly constant,

13:36

and why can we discover them and express

13:38

them in terms of mathematics, like enormous

13:41

philosophy questions we haven't even scratched

13:43

the surface of. And I thought, I really

13:45

like thinking about, like what is the

13:47

computer of the universe except

13:50

for a moment? The universe follows some laws,

13:52

real or simulation. Right, they're

13:54

like imprinted in the way things are. Yeah,

13:57

they're set somewhere, right, they're fixed somehow.

14:00

How are those laws enacted? Like

14:02

when a particle bounces off of another particle,

14:05

how is that calculation done? You know

14:07

what determines what is going to happen?

14:09

There? It takes no time, right, it's

14:12

instantaneous, no lag

14:14

or delay in our universe that says, oh

14:17

you know, um no, there's no spinning ball of death

14:19

when something complicated happens, right, No matter how

14:21

complicated it is, the calculation

14:24

is done instantly. Like how does that little

14:26

particle know to follow the rules?

14:29

That's right, that's right, It's just it's just

14:31

done. Yeah, And like, what

14:33

what is there to enforce those rules? Right? If

14:35

a particle was like, yeah, I'm not gonna follow the rules.

14:38

I like how you try to give attitude to everything

14:40

like personalities.

14:43

Yeah, maybe that's why I got um fired

14:46

from my robotics too. Um

14:50

um, yeah, but like what what

14:52

what enforces the laws of physics in our

14:54

universe? Right? That's right?

14:56

Well, if you if you like the simulation model,

14:59

right, then member that inside

15:01

the simulation the rules are followed, but

15:03

the calculations are done outside

15:05

the simulation. Right. If we build a simulated

15:07

universe, right, you and me sit down de side when

15:09

they would build a little mini universe

15:12

in which cartoonists and roboticists

15:14

or kings or something, and we

15:16

can set the rules of that universe, but the calculations

15:19

for that universe are not done inside

15:21

that universe, are done in our universe.

15:23

Right, in our computers, like in a simulation

15:26

or a video game, you would say, all right, here's a

15:28

mass of Mario, and this is the force

15:30

that's being applied to Mario. Therefore he should

15:32

be accelerating. You crunch the numbers

15:34

and you say he should be accelerating this much,

15:37

right, and then you apply that to the video games. Say

15:39

we're in universe zero, right, and we're simulating

15:41

universe one. And then as you said, things

15:44

that happened in universe one are calculated

15:47

in universe zero right outside

15:49

of our universe. That's the thing I find

15:51

compelling about this is the universe of simulation

15:54

question because it touches on that question, where

15:56

are the calculations done for our universe

15:59

universe zero? Is there a universe

16:01

minus one with some giant computer

16:03

that's doing these calculations blindingly fast

16:06

or is it just magically done? So,

16:12

like, if if we're in a simulation and everyone

16:14

listening to this is an assimulation, what

16:17

is computing the calculations

16:19

in the upper universe, in the

16:21

outside universe, that's right? What is that computer?

16:24

Like it doesn't have to follow the same rules as

16:26

our universe, And how is it possibly

16:28

doing all these calculations um

16:30

to describe our universe? And this

16:33

is a question that's fair to ask even if the universe

16:35

is real, even if it's not a simulation, you have to wonder

16:38

how is this done? How is this um?

16:40

How is this universe run? You know, I think

16:42

that's a really fun way. It doesn't It doesn't go away. That's the

16:45

interesting thing. It's like, even if we are a simulation,

16:47

then you still have to answer the question about the aliens

16:50

is universe, you know, like what how

16:52

how does it work for them?

16:55

Yeah, that's right, it's an endlessly

16:57

recursive question. And you

16:59

can owe is ask are we in the stimulation

17:01

or not? And you know, basic things that we assume,

17:04

like the universe has rules. Those rules don't

17:06

change with time. That could be

17:08

different in other simulations or

17:10

in the you know this the

17:12

universe that's running our simulation. That could

17:15

be different. It could be in their universe. The laws

17:17

of physics change with time, the speed

17:19

of light is variable with time, all

17:21

sorts of other stuff. So they were like, hey, let's

17:24

have some fun. Let's create a video game

17:26

where the rules don't change. Yeah,

17:28

for example, I mean, that's just one hypothetical,

17:31

not one that I believe, but just it's

17:33

a possibility. Um. And and

17:35

that that touches on other really fascinating stuff

17:37

like say you have some calculation

17:40

you want to do. It's really complicated. It would take

17:42

one of our computers a billion years, right,

17:46

If you can arrange our universe

17:49

in such a way so that it does

17:51

that calculation for you, Well,

17:53

our universe appears to be able to do these calculations

17:55

instantly, right, So

17:58

so you might be thinking, well, that's absurd. Well let me

18:00

give you a concrete example. So you have

18:02

a ball that has like ten to the ten atoms

18:04

in it, and you want to understand how

18:06

it drops right, how it falls right,

18:09

Well, you could either do that calculation, which would

18:11

take you a billion years, or you could

18:13

actually just drop a ball right.

18:15

So in that sense, we can use our universe

18:19

as a computer if what you wanted

18:21

to know was something that was going to happen

18:23

naturally in our universe exactly.

18:26

And that is what experimental physics is,

18:28

is arranging physical systems to

18:31

do instantaneous calculations

18:33

of things we otherwise couldn't figure out. Right. For

18:36

example, I kind of said it in a

18:38

derisive way I can. I said it is like, that's

18:40

a silly idea, but you're saying it's the basis of

18:43

your entire research field. That's

18:46

right, That's what it experimental physics.

18:48

That's why we do experimental physics because the universe

18:50

is faster calculating this stuff than we are.

18:53

Sometimes in particle physics, we don't

18:55

know how to do a calculation. We're like, well, what happens

18:57

when this and this hits that? Well, we can't

18:59

calcul it. Well, let's just go measure it, because

19:02

the universe can do the calculation without us. If

19:04

you had as a miraculous computer.

19:07

You wouldn't need to do experiments because

19:09

you could just simulate every possibility

19:11

in this magical computer and you would know

19:13

the answer that's right, And the

19:15

universe is that computer. Oh

19:18

that's that's wild. Yeah,

19:20

but you know it's it's not infinitely configurable.

19:23

Like on your simulation that you write on your laptop,

19:25

you can control everything, you can do everything you want.

19:28

In the case of the universe, we can't necessarily

19:30

do any arbitrary calculation because

19:33

you can't arrange the universe to do it for you. Like if

19:35

you want to just know what's going to weather

19:37

going to be like tomorrow in Australia, that's

19:40

a really hard calculation. How would

19:42

we set that up. Well, we'd have an earth, right,

19:44

and we'd run it forward for a day, But

19:47

you wouldn't have the answer in advance, right,

19:49

you'd have the answer tomorrow when it's tomorrow in

19:51

Australia. So it's not it's not I'm

19:53

not saying that the universe is a perfect infinite

19:55

computer that we can use to answer any question. I'm saying

19:58

that's kind of the model. Yeah,

20:00

exactly. On that note, let's take

20:03

a quick break. Well,

20:14

I find it really fascinating that physicists

20:18

have come up with ways to

20:20

maybe check to see if we are in a simulated

20:23

universe. Right, Like, there's actually there might be experiments

20:25

we can do to test whether

20:28

we are neo in the matrix

20:30

or not exactly. And that's step two, right for

20:32

Step one is have crazy idea. Step

20:34

two is how could we test this idea?

20:37

Step two get money for the crazy idea, apply

20:42

for grant fundings. Are crazy idea? Um,

20:45

it's pretty hard because you have to make some assumptions

20:47

about how that simulation is done right,

20:50

and those assumptions are

20:52

just guesses really,

20:55

But that's fine. Like a lot of times in science, we

20:57

don't know how to approach a problem, so we just make

20:59

a bunch of guesses so that we can at

21:01

least try to answer the question. And

21:03

then maybe later we re evaluate those

21:05

guesses and try to widen

21:08

the scope or whatever, but just so we can get somewhere.

21:10

Right, Well, what are some of these ways that

21:12

physicists think that maybe we could figure

21:15

out if we're in a simulation. Well, one way

21:17

is to look for things that move super duper

21:19

fast. And the reason is that if we were

21:21

to simulate a universe. The way we would do it

21:24

is to slice space up into huge

21:26

cubes and simulate each cube. Because

21:28

you can't simulate the whole universe at once. You'd

21:30

want like a bank of computers. You would only

21:32

simulate the parts that are sort of relevant

21:34

to the video game players, that's right.

21:37

And also you would want to have a bunch of computers

21:39

working in parallel. You wouldn't want a single computer

21:41

operating on the whole universe. You just want to

21:43

slice it up and say this cube

21:46

light year cube of space is handled by this computer,

21:49

and this light year cube handle them by that computer,

21:51

and when things cross the boundaries, they have to talk

21:53

to each other. But that's the way we simulate.

21:55

For example, you know an ice cube forming

21:58

you have you have a bunch of calculations of these water

22:00

molecules, but you do them in little cubes

22:03

um and then you interface them. And so

22:05

people think, what happens when

22:07

something is going super fast through the universe.

22:09

It could cross a bunch of these cubes really

22:12

quickly, and that would be difficult for

22:14

this simulation to do correctly,

22:16

and so we'd have to look for little glitches

22:18

like that, like you would have to look

22:21

for cases that are really kind

22:23

of pushing the limits of the computer

22:25

that's simulating us potentially to

22:27

see if there are any like like if

22:30

if the simulation breaks them out exactly

22:32

and that's you put it exactly right. But we

22:34

have to assume we know something about

22:37

what's hard for those kind of universe

22:39

simulators, right, which is like so presumptuous

22:41

to even know. But if what's

22:43

hard for the universe simulators is the same thing

22:45

as what's hard for us when we simulate a little

22:47

mini universes, then one

22:49

thing that's hard is things across that go really

22:52

fast. And so there are things out

22:54

there in space that's that zoom around super

22:56

quickly and that can potentially

22:58

give us clues. So we have to assume that a

23:01

it's hard to simulate the entire universe

23:03

at the same time, so we have to break it up and

23:05

be we have to assume that, um,

23:08

things going really really really fast across

23:11

these different chunks of the universe.

23:14

Um, that's a hard problem, that's right.

23:16

And so one thing we look at our super

23:18

fast cosmic rays cosmic grains are

23:20

just particles in space zooming around,

23:23

and it's a whole other interesting mystery about why those

23:25

particles are there and why they're going so fast. But

23:27

they're going incredibly fast, like

23:30

ridiculously fast, much faster

23:32

than particles we make here on Earth,

23:34

even at our fancy ten billion dollar accelerators,

23:37

and those are going so fast that they might

23:39

reveal these glitches. So if we look to see

23:42

if those particles are coming at the same rate

23:44

in every direction and this kind of stuff,

23:46

we might be able to get hints that there might be

23:48

little glitches in the simulation. Cool.

23:50

So are there any other ideas for testing this?

23:52

I don't think there are any ideas that have much widespread

23:55

support. I mean, we're already talking about crazy

23:57

theories here, but I mean an idea I

23:59

have is communicate with the simulators, right,

24:02

Like, let's send the message, you know, like

24:04

like I know, like

24:07

I know what's going on. We figured it out,

24:09

right, Like, say you are running

24:12

a simulation of a universe, right, and

24:14

you don't tell the beings inside that universe

24:16

that it's a simulation because that would spoil your

24:19

experiments somehow, right, Right, Well,

24:21

if they discover it, then you kind of want to

24:23

know and maybe you be interested in talking

24:25

to them, right, So I think

24:27

let's try to send a message, you know, let's

24:29

write something on it. It's the equivalent running s OS

24:31

on the beach or or something. But they would because

24:35

they're overseeing our our universe, so they would

24:37

know that we're actually bluffing. We say, ha

24:39

ha, we found out, and they'd

24:41

be like, no, you didn't. They

24:43

haven't talked to us so far. Why would they start

24:46

out we started bluffing. Mmm.

24:48

That's a good point. But you're assuming we are bluffing,

24:50

right, What if we sincerely, honestly believe

24:53

the universe is a simulation. You're

24:55

right, we don't have any evidence for it, so we can't so

24:57

we can't scientifically sincerely

24:59

believe that. Well, I think the biggest sign

25:01

that we're in a simulation is the fact that

25:04

Kenna Reeves has an age to day. Surely

25:08

that's that is a glitch in the matrix

25:10

right there, the matrix.

25:14

Yeah,

25:18

well, um, what would it be like

25:20

to be in a simulation? Like? What implications

25:22

with that? It might be just like this, It

25:25

might not be any different. Yeah, I mean, if we are

25:27

in a simulation, then we already know the answer. What's it

25:29

like to be in a simulation? But

25:31

you probably meant something else you probably meant like

25:34

you mean, oh,

25:36

I see, Like are we simulated minds?

25:39

Like maybe we're not um

25:42

humans in a vat in a warehouse, in

25:44

an alien warehouse. Maybe we're like actually

25:46

like pieces of coding. We're

25:48

like artificial intelligences. Oh

25:52

my god. Like maybe we're like the fodder

25:55

in a video game. We're like the mushrooms in

25:57

Super Mario. You know we're here

26:00

form right,

26:04

sort of two levels there, right, Like one level is

26:07

you are a brain, and your brain exists

26:09

in the real universe, but you're being fed

26:11

information about a fake universe, right, But

26:13

your brain exists in the real universe. That's sort of level

26:16

one. Level two is you don't

26:18

exist in the real universe at all except

26:21

in that simulation, right, a piece

26:23

of code that describes a virtual person.

26:26

Right, you could just exist in that simulation

26:28

until the question is like basically that are we

26:30

real, are we conscious? Are we actually

26:33

something? Or are we like completely fake

26:36

or right? Which is right

26:38

now an open question in philosophy, Like say,

26:40

for example, I could perfectly

26:42

simulate Jorge's brain and Horee's body,

26:45

right, and I had that inside a computer, and it's a

26:47

completely faithful reproduction right, and

26:49

just like you, it's spent most of its day in pajamas

26:51

and taking naps in the afternoon. Right, Totally

26:54

accurate. The question is would

26:56

that, Jorge feel anything?

26:59

Would it be a where would it be self conscious?

27:02

Right? Because really we're sort of computer

27:04

ourselves, right, Like if we are real, we're

27:07

just a bunch of like neurons, which are really

27:09

just like little computers. We're

27:11

just a massive computers in our

27:13

brain. So maybe maybe there's no

27:15

difference. Maybe there's no difference, right exactly.

27:18

Maybe the thing that makes us us is

27:20

just the arrangement of these bits,

27:22

right, just the information stored in

27:26

the physical computer that is me, of the physical

27:28

computer that is you. That's a little hard

27:30

to grasp. It's a little hard to feel comfortable with thinking

27:33

I am just this representation,

27:35

right, because that means that you could translate me

27:37

into a totally different representation. Right, bits

27:40

inside a computer which are also a physical

27:42

system, or a computer is a physical system with switches

27:44

and and bits and stuff, and

27:46

that that could be somehow equivalent to me. The

27:49

problem is, I don't think we could ever

27:51

know. And what I mean by that is, say

27:53

I have a computer simulation which is a perfect

27:56

reproduction of Jorge, Right, I mean

27:58

not that I'm not perfect already. But um,

28:02

I'm not saying I wouldn't make a few tweaks. You

28:05

want to make a few tweaks? Oh

28:08

um, But say we had the simulated version before

28:10

hey, and we asked it, are you real? Well,

28:13

if I ask you if you're real, you'll say yes.

28:15

So if the stimulation is a perfect reproduction

28:17

of you, it will also say it's real.

28:20

How do we distinguish between something that says

28:22

it's real, seems real, and but isn't

28:25

actually aware? Wow,

28:27

we can't. That's a that's a topic known as a

28:29

philosophical zombie in philosophy

28:32

circles. Yeah, well, the whole reason we're

28:34

talking about this is basically, um

28:37

is that the computers are getting so advanced

28:40

now that it's actually kind of a possibility

28:43

A and B. Physicists

28:45

can't categorically say

28:47

no, that's impossible, and so that's

28:49

why we're talking about it. That's right, And there are even

28:52

some people that make the argument that it's likely,

28:54

okay likely. Some people even say that's not

28:57

just like a crazy idea, that's not impossible.

29:00

It's like there's there's

29:03

strong evidence for it. Not strong

29:05

evidence. But here here's the argument. You can judge

29:07

for yourself how strong it is. The idea

29:09

goes like this, say this one real universe, and

29:12

inside that real universe, somebody invents

29:14

a simulated universe. Inside

29:16

that simulated universe, somebody invents a

29:18

simulated universe. So now imagine a whole

29:20

set of nested universes, right,

29:23

each of which is very realistic and high fidelity,

29:25

and his beings in it to feel alive and

29:27

love and hate and and all this kind of stuff.

29:30

Um, then if there are this

29:32

whole nested set of universes and only

29:34

one is real, then what is the probability

29:37

that ours is that real one? So

29:39

they argue that, therefore the

29:41

probability that our universe is real is small.

29:44

Right, It turns the question on its head, is you see

29:46

universe is simulation two? Is the universe

29:49

real? And it suggests that that's unlikely?

29:51

Oh, meaning that it is it is

29:53

possible to simulate a universe. Therefore,

29:57

in the infinity of a time

30:00

him in space. Um, what's

30:02

the likelihood that we

30:04

are real? Not a

30:06

stimulation? Um,

30:08

It's it's like non zero, yeah, exactly.

30:11

It's like if you're in an infinite crowd and

30:13

only one person is real and everybody else is

30:15

fake. What are the chances that you're the real one? Pretty

30:18

small? Um. I

30:20

think that's not a very strong argument because

30:22

it makes a lot of assumptions. You know, it

30:24

assumes that universes will always simulate

30:26

another universe, and those universes would be high

30:28

fidelity, and that all of them would be like ours,

30:31

um and that kind of stuff. But

30:33

you know, it does have that cosmic context.

30:36

I like the sender, the fact that it reminds us

30:38

that we don't really know where we are and

30:40

what the context is, and that is

30:42

important. As we think we are sometimes it

30:45

could just be that we are Super Mario brothers

30:47

bouncing around inside a video game. That's

30:49

that's I think a useful reminder. I've always

30:51

identified more with LEGI, to be honest, because

30:55

he's the taller one. He's I think he's

30:58

a yeah, he's just kind of the alert,

31:00

the clearer brother. He

31:02

doesn't care about getting all the spotlight right. He's he's

31:05

over that, he's above it. Well, whether

31:07

we are in a simulation or not.

31:10

Um, it's really fun to kind

31:12

of question the nature of the universe. Right, absolutely,

31:15

And it's only in asking these crazy questions

31:18

that we're going to make crazy discoveries. Right,

31:20

the universe might not be a simulation, but

31:22

in thinking about ways to test it, we might discover

31:25

other weird stuff that that gives us another crazy

31:27

idea, and that one might actually be true. So

31:29

this is we're all physicists in the sense that we'd

31:31

like to all think about big questions about

31:34

the universe. It's like in trying to break the video

31:36

game, that's when you discover the hitting

31:38

easter eggs. That's right, the easter eggs

31:40

of the universe. That's where we're all hoping for. Cool.

31:46

Well, I hope you guys are keeping

31:48

it real out there, and I enjoyed this discussion.

31:50

I hope you're keeping it simulated. And have a

31:52

great day until next time.