0:02

Hey folks, welcome to the Dark Horse

0:05

podcast. I have the distinct pleasure of

0:07

sitting this afternoon or for her this

0:09

evening with Kat Lindley. Kat

0:11

Lindley is the president of the Global

0:13

Health Project. She is also a

0:16

family physician from Texas, as you will

0:18

detect from her accent. Kat

0:21

and I have become friends in

0:23

the COVID dissident movement, and Kat

0:25

has been a leader, along with

0:28

David Bell and Meryl Nass, of

0:30

the fight against the WHO's Pandemic

0:32

Preparedness Treaty and International Health Regulations.

0:35

Kat, welcome to Dark Horse. Thanks

0:39

for having me, Brett. So

0:41

the occasion of our gathering today

0:43

is that there have been some

0:45

changes with respect to

0:47

the WHO Pandemic Treaty

0:50

and International Health Regulations. It

0:53

looks to the untrained eye like

0:56

we have gained some major concessions.

0:58

There are some big changes afoot

1:00

at the World Health Organization, and

1:03

we both thought it would be worthwhile

1:06

to look at what has changed and

1:09

what we think it means. So

1:11

Kat, do you want to lay out

1:13

what has changed at the World Health

1:16

Organization? Sure. I

1:18

would like to start by saying that what

1:21

we've seen in the past months is actually

1:23

a great movement of people who have listened

1:26

to some of us and started being concerned

1:28

with some of the things that have been

1:30

discussing at the World Health Organization. So

1:33

we've seen this increased narrative

1:35

of potential disease X,

1:37

avian flu, and things like that,

1:39

all while these two documents have

1:41

to be negotiated, renegotiated, and all

1:44

that. So recently this past

1:46

week, we have seen a

1:48

new recommendations,

1:51

the new negotiations on the

1:54

Pandemic Treaty and the amendments

1:56

to international health regulation. when

2:00

you look at it and for those who are

2:02

on Twitter and have seen a lot of people

2:05

saying how they've taken different

2:08

language out, we are winning and

2:10

sure, I truly believe that the

2:12

power of people has made this

2:14

happen. But what I

2:16

would like everyone to realize is while

2:18

language has changed, some has

2:20

been diluted and we'll talk about it, the

2:23

essence of both documents is still there.

2:26

They're still trying to put us

2:29

in this perpetual state of pandemic

2:31

over and over again, still

2:33

trying to introduce this notion of

2:35

having vaccines in 100 days with

2:38

zero to limited liability, new

2:40

unlicensed products, surveillance, everything is

2:43

still there, just shuffled around

2:45

with a lot of legalese

2:47

behind it. So

2:50

I would also urge

2:52

the same caution. I do think we

2:55

are winning and I think that this

2:57

is a major success, but

3:00

I would ask people not to

3:02

take their foot off the gas. The

3:06

message is exactly the opposite one. What

3:09

we are looking at is one

3:11

more mechanism by which

3:14

whatever the global authoritarians are,

3:17

they are looking to evade the

3:19

protections that are offered by, for

3:21

example, the United States

3:23

Constitution. And so

3:26

the mechanism here is a ruse

3:28

whereby our elected

3:31

representatives sign on to

3:33

a treaty and

3:35

international health regulations that

3:38

then tie their hands in the future

3:40

if the who decides to declare

3:42

a pandemic. And the way this

3:44

was initially written, the

3:47

who could declare a pandemic over anything,

3:49

it could declare a pandemic over the

3:51

threat of climate change, and it

3:53

would be given absolutely

3:55

draconian powers then

3:58

to dictate. what would

4:00

happen to the citizens of the

4:02

sovereign nations of the world. What

4:05

we have seen now is that

4:07

much of the most offensive

4:10

structure has been removed from

4:12

these documents. We are clearly

4:14

supposed to be breathing a sigh

4:16

of relief, but given that

4:18

it was the governments of

4:21

the World Health Organization that

4:23

were effectively asking to have

4:25

their own hands tied, the

4:27

fact that what was obligate

4:29

language is now discretionary should

4:32

provide very little comfort. We

4:34

should still expect to see

4:37

if this treaty passes and

4:39

these international health regulations are

4:41

passed, we should expect to

4:43

see those same authoritarian

4:48

moves made in the future, albeit

4:50

with slightly greater complication. So

4:53

I think I

4:55

join you in hoping

4:57

that people will see this as

4:59

a reason actually to redouble our

5:01

efforts rather than to pay

5:04

attention to other things. This is a

5:06

moment at which to recognize that we

5:08

have demonstrated that we have power in

5:10

this international arena and

5:12

to exercise it to send a

5:14

completely unambiguous message to our

5:17

leaders that we will not accept tyranny.

5:21

I completely agree. For example, this pandemic

5:23

treaty, the One Health is still there

5:25

and One Health is essential for them

5:27

to be able to achieve all this

5:29

because One Health essentially gives them power

5:32

over every aspect of life on Earth. The

5:36

document itself, pandemic treaty is

5:38

very vague. It

5:40

says there's going to be this framework convention

5:42

and then the new bureaucracy that's called Conference

5:44

of the Parties. And this Conference of the

5:46

Parties will be set up within a year.

5:48

We don't know who's going to be a

5:50

part of it. And then there are going

5:53

to be different rules that they can take

5:55

up to May of 2026

5:58

for them to come up with and then people. will

6:00

know what's in it. So it kind of

6:02

reminds you of that you know play that we had

6:04

in the United States with the Obamacare. You have to

6:06

sign it now but you know you'll find out later

6:08

what's in it. So we have to

6:10

be very careful like you said to keep

6:12

on putting pressure on our member

6:15

states to actually

6:18

ask they want to know what's in it now

6:20

not find out a year from now or two

6:22

years from now. Yes

6:25

we've seen numerous games played we've seen it

6:28

become difficult to look at

6:30

the current proposal. We've seen

6:32

name changes that make it

6:34

hard to discuss hard to

6:36

search for changes that have

6:38

been made. All of this

6:40

sleight of hand is obviously in

6:43

service of creating authority in

6:45

the World Health Organization that it

6:47

has never traditionally had and must

6:49

not have. This is an unaccountable

6:51

body and even if

6:53

it had succeeded in some way during

6:57

COVID the powers that it

6:59

is seeking are unimaginable. Given

7:01

how it failed during COVID

7:04

it's really shocking

7:07

that anyone would dare to

7:09

make the argument to increase

7:11

its power over the

7:13

lives of citizens and sovereign

7:15

nations. Exactly

7:18

and you know the amendments to international

7:20

health regulation for example like

7:22

you said the binding language

7:25

has been struck out so they're not going to be giving us

7:27

this binding

7:30

obligatory advice but

7:32

at the same time they will put pressure on the member states to

7:36

comply because they can do it through

7:38

the World Bank and the IMF so we have to be very

7:40

careful when we say

7:42

you know we don't have to comply

7:44

and things like that the language stay

7:46

there they are still going to require

7:48

the 100 day unlicensed

7:50

products and vaccines

7:53

to be implemented surveillance is still

7:55

there the like you said the

7:57

things have been shuffled so censorship by not

8:00

be in Article 44, but

8:02

it's still there when you look for it

8:04

because it does ask for surveillance of the

8:06

member parties and all that. Yes,

8:10

and I think the history

8:12

of that, of the

8:16

proposal is telling.

8:19

The initial version of

8:21

this proposal, and I will say, I believe

8:24

Heather and I got to

8:26

an understanding of the seriousness of

8:28

these questions late. You were well

8:30

ahead on this, and you spotted

8:33

the full danger of what

8:35

the World Health Organization was up to earlier than we

8:37

did. But even at the point that we

8:40

caught up and started looking at

8:42

the content, it was absolutely

8:44

jaw-dropping, literally, in

8:47

including the right to decide

8:49

what constitutes a

8:52

pandemic to issue

8:55

draconian mandates in advance

8:58

to redistribute medical

9:00

supplies around the globe,

9:02

which to me raised

9:05

the shocking possibility that if COVID were

9:07

to happen again or something like it,

9:10

that the ivermectin

9:12

debate might be neutralized by simply

9:14

transferring the medication so that it

9:17

was out of reach of people

9:19

who disagreed with the

9:21

official recommendations. They could do that.

9:23

They literally carve

9:26

out the right to

9:28

mandate not only true

9:30

vaccines, but in the copy that Heather

9:32

and I first looked at, gene

9:35

therapies, the who actually

9:37

wanted the right to mandate on

9:40

the citizens of the world the

9:43

application of genetic therapies.

9:45

I find that beyond

9:47

shocking. And

9:50

I think you really nailed the point. Those first

9:52

documents are the ones that we actually should go

9:54

back to and look at them again because as

9:56

they've seen resistance around the world, they've been able

9:59

to do that. the world towards certain

10:01

subjects. They kind of drop

10:03

that language. And then they

10:05

write this whole huge sentence

10:08

that essentially saying the same thing just in

10:10

different wording. And people need to be aware

10:12

that their intention is the same. The

10:15

wording might have changed. They put more legalese

10:17

that I don't really understand

10:20

very well. But the actual

10:22

premise of the document stands,

10:25

and the premises for the War Health

10:27

Organization, the director

10:29

general can still declare public health

10:31

emergency. Sure, he kind of has to

10:33

go to the committee and make sure that

10:36

there is some kind of agreement. But he gets

10:38

to appoint the committee members. So

10:40

do you think there's going to

10:42

be any resistance towards him declaring

10:44

this public health emergency? No. We

10:46

both know there won't be any.

10:48

And he can still issue the

10:50

quarantine isolation. Tell us what type

10:53

of diagnostic treatments, vaccines we have

10:55

to recommend. He can restrict travel

10:57

into the area. He can

10:59

institute the, you know, there is still

11:01

that vaccine passport language. It's a little

11:03

bit different, but it's still there. So

11:06

we need to be 100% agree. We

11:09

need to celebrate our wins, the fact that we

11:11

put them on defensive and they have to defend all

11:13

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11:16

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11:18

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11:20

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15:01

They don't want it and the who

15:03

has been counting on the fact that

15:05

people will not pay attention and if

15:07

they try to pay attention they will

15:09

find it confusing and bureaucratic and they

15:11

will think the World Health Organization doesn't

15:13

really have any power and so they

15:15

will just ignore it and that

15:18

is the opposite of the right

15:20

reaction. And I would just

15:22

add it occurs to me in talking

15:24

to you and you will know more about this than

15:26

I do as a physician but that

15:30

we are in the

15:32

situation of a patient who

15:35

has successfully driven an

15:37

infection into retreat

15:41

and the problem is if you decide

15:43

well the infection is in retreat and

15:45

you withdraw the antibiotic what you've actually

15:47

done is you have

15:50

created a more powerful pathogen. You

15:52

have selected for that portion that

15:54

is going to fly below the

15:57

radar of the public and

15:59

we can't. We have to

16:01

drive this infection out and that

16:03

means we have to kill this off dead.

16:07

That is the only way to

16:09

send the message that this was

16:11

a completely unacceptable overreach from the

16:13

get-go and that no part of

16:15

it is tolerable to us, no matter how mild

16:18

they make it sound. We know

16:20

what they're up to as you point

16:22

out by looking at the earliest drafts

16:24

and seeing the jaw-dropping powers that they

16:27

were attempting to commandeer.

16:31

So I have to tell you, your

16:33

example really makes me laugh

16:35

because it's true. You have no idea how

16:37

many times I give someone antibiotic or strep

16:39

or whatever and they're like, oh,

16:42

I started feeling better within three or four days,

16:44

so I stopped taking it and then they come

16:46

to me and I have to figure out like

16:48

what I'm going to do next and I have

16:50

to do it for a longer period of time

16:52

because they overselected for this more dangerous pathogen. And

16:54

I agree. I think that's exactly where we are.

16:57

I really – and I actually, you

16:59

know, want people to pay

17:02

attention to this fact that the treaty itself,

17:05

they made it so vague. They

17:07

can make any decisions they want. They

17:10

can decide within one year who's going to be part

17:13

of the conference of the parties. Then the conference of

17:15

parties has another year to set up the rules for

17:17

the One Health. So

17:19

they can put anything they want in it because

17:21

we signed for it and

17:23

you don't have any say. So

17:25

it's extremely important to remain vigilant,

17:28

to keep putting pressure on our

17:30

legislators, on our

17:32

representatives of the World Health Organization and say, essentially,

17:34

we don't need this. I'm

17:37

one of those people, the choice field, that we do

17:39

not need World Health Organization. I

17:43

think we've all learned how

17:45

much they failed and we've all seen

17:47

what they're trying to accomplish. The

17:50

question is why? Why do they need to

17:52

be in charge of global health? Countries

17:55

have these good relationships

17:57

with other countries. happens,

18:00

we have, you

18:03

know, our partners, we can call and say,

18:05

we're seeing this, let's collaborate, let's create, you

18:08

know, some kind of committee

18:10

right now to deal with this specific issue. We

18:12

don't have to keep on giving them money and

18:15

unlimited power to tell us how to conduct

18:17

life on Earth. Absolutely

18:22

right. And I would also

18:24

point out that one

18:26

of the things, one of the painful lessons

18:28

that I feel that I

18:30

learned over the course of the COVID crisis

18:34

was that public

18:36

health and global health were being

18:38

used as an excuse for

18:41

changes that were frankly

18:44

forbidden in the founding

18:46

documents of the United States at the

18:48

very least, and that

18:51

the mind has this intuitive idea

18:55

that there is an exception for an

18:57

emergency. Now, of course, the

18:59

founding documents spell out no such exception because

19:01

there must not be one. If there is

19:03

one, then you can expect

19:05

authorities to create emergencies in order to

19:09

seize power. And in this case, that's

19:11

what we're seeing in the global organization

19:15

around this pandemic preparedness

19:18

treaty and international health

19:20

regulations. So

19:23

let us leave open the

19:26

possibility that the explanation for

19:28

why an utterly

19:32

humiliated organization like the World Health

19:34

Organization would not be going back

19:36

to the drawing board but would

19:38

instead be seeking ever greater

19:40

power, that the answer to that might be

19:43

that health is really a tangential

19:45

issue. It's the excuse that is

19:48

being used in order to

19:50

concentrate power. I

19:54

agree. And one thing that I've, I

19:56

understand the need for public health. I

19:59

understand the need for cooperation.

20:03

But one thing that I've learned these

20:05

past four years that public health has

20:08

been captured, and public

20:10

health has forgotten that every

20:12

life matters. There

20:15

is, you know, I understand statistics and

20:17

all that, and you look at what's

20:19

best, and how can we make sure

20:21

that we have the best impact. But

20:24

at the essence, every single life

20:26

matters, and we should never forget that.

20:30

Yes, absolutely right. And I agree with you. I

20:32

know many good people in

20:34

public health, and it's even hard for

20:36

them to understand that public health is

20:39

now being worn as

20:41

a disguise. It's being used as

20:43

a pretext for changes that really

20:45

not only do they have nothing

20:48

to do with health, but they

20:50

are anti-health. They cause disease. That's

20:53

what we saw over the course of

20:56

COVID, was recommendations that increased

20:58

the level of disease and

21:00

the harm of disease that people were

21:03

contracting. So one

21:05

must never empower something that is

21:08

so callous about the

21:10

harm to innocent people. I

21:14

agree. And as

21:16

we said during this conversation,

21:18

I want everyone to really recognize that

21:21

the job they've been doing over this past year

21:24

and a half, the pressure they put has worked.

21:27

And we need to continue putting this pressure. We

21:29

have four weeks, maybe five

21:31

weeks before that meeting in Geneva. And we

21:33

need to make sure that our

21:35

voices are heard, that we do

21:37

not want this document, that we do not

21:40

want our countries to be a part of

21:42

it. And for someone like

21:44

me who

21:46

has come from communist country and

21:49

realized how important the

21:53

United States Constitution is, the Bill

21:55

of Rights, and then seeing all

21:58

of these things. Banish. little

22:00

by little by little, and

22:03

our government stepping really

22:06

on the freedom of the people, it's

22:08

been very difficult. And now the idea

22:10

that you're going to have this supernational

22:12

agency go even above your government and

22:15

make decisions for all of us, we

22:17

all have to just reject it. There's really

22:19

no other way out of this. Whoever

22:23

becomes a leader of this country in November,

22:25

they really should consider completely

22:28

exiting of the World

22:30

Health Organization. But one thing that makes me

22:33

laugh, I don't know if you actually know,

22:35

it actually takes about two, three years to

22:37

exit the World Health Organization. And I was

22:39

joking with Meryl Nazar because we just spent

22:41

a few days in Italy meeting with different

22:44

people there. I said to her, you know

22:46

what, this is so ridiculous. If I want

22:48

to exit something, I'm just going to say

22:50

bye-bye. And I think that's kind

22:52

of what we need to say to them. Your

22:54

rules and regulations do not apply to us. We

22:56

have our own constitution. If we

22:58

want to leave, we're going to leave and good luck to

23:00

you. Yeah, I agree

23:03

wholeheartedly. Now, I did want to

23:06

try out a different

23:08

perspective here. Obviously, it resonates with what

23:10

we've been saying. But the

23:13

degree to which we have

23:15

won a surprise is

23:17

victory here. It's incomplete. We need to finish

23:19

the job. But the degree to which we

23:22

have brought attention to

23:24

this authoritarian overreach

23:28

and raised enough alarm that

23:30

the World Health Organization is

23:32

now responding to us. We

23:34

have gone around our

23:37

corrupt administration. And

23:39

we have brought this directly to

23:42

the citizens of the world. They have

23:44

spoken loudly enough that the World Health

23:46

Organization is now responding to us and

23:49

attempting to remove the

23:51

most egregious parameters so that we will get

23:56

into a false state of security. Well,

23:59

that is the indicator that

24:01

we should demonstrate

24:05

the full extent of our power. We

24:07

have discovered that we have power and

24:10

we should now wield it in the

24:12

interest of the citizens of the world.

24:15

And when we succeed, we

24:18

should celebrate it. This

24:20

is our opportunity to understand that

24:22

the consent of the governed still

24:25

lives even if our administrations are

24:27

trying to erase it. I

24:31

believe that 100% and I think the

24:33

best thing that's happened these past several years

24:35

is the fact that we're all connected around

24:37

the world. And we all

24:40

share the same issues, we have the same

24:42

fears, we have the same hopes. We

24:45

are all seeing our own governments really

24:47

stepping over all of our rights. Different

24:50

countries have different rules and

24:52

different constitutions. What

24:56

we need to remember is, you

24:58

know, whether you – I was in Croatia

25:00

in December and I looked up their constitution,

25:02

they actually do have breaks

25:05

in their own constitution to stop this. But

25:07

they have forgotten that they have these things and

25:10

the same thing for us. You

25:12

know, what we've seen is actually Louisiana,

25:14

right? How much, you know,

25:17

hope has Louisiana brought to everyone

25:19

with that bill that they passed

25:21

in the Senate that was actually

25:23

bipartisan bill that says WHO is

25:26

not going to have jurisdiction in the

25:28

state of Louisiana. And now you have

25:31

Alabama carried on. Tennessee is considering it.

25:33

South Carolina is considering it. It's

25:35

kind of almost like a fire because

25:37

people essentially just – they want to be free

25:40

and they want to live good

25:42

life, provide for their families and provide

25:44

future for their children. And that's

25:46

something that unites us all. It

25:49

absolutely unites us all. I've seen it

25:51

in Eastern Europe, as have you. I've

25:54

seen it in various states in the

25:56

U.S., which is tremendous, and

25:58

I am – also now

26:01

hearing reports of

26:04

this movement in

26:07

Asia, in Japan, in fact. You may

26:09

know more about this than I do,

26:11

but my understanding is that there has

26:13

been quite a bit of discussion in

26:15

Japan about

26:18

this power grab by the World Health

26:20

Organization. And a friend

26:23

of mine, Masako

26:25

Kanaha, was to give

26:28

a speech where she was expecting

26:30

something like 500 people, and

26:32

there were apparently something

26:35

like 19,000 people showed up

26:37

to protest. So my

26:40

sense is our

26:45

network is getting

26:47

the information to people in spite

26:49

of all of the obstacles that

26:51

have been used to make sure that they don't

26:54

hear about it until it's too late. It

26:57

is, and it's great to, you know, we will

27:00

share a good friend, Neil Oliver. You have

27:02

Neil Oliver in the UK

27:04

doing the same things that you're

27:07

doing here in the United States.

27:09

You have people in Australia doing

27:11

the same thing. And seeing a

27:13

country like Japan, who actually essentially,

27:16

if you really think about Japan,

27:18

their citizens are really, I'm trying

27:20

to find a good road. I don't want to say like

27:22

calm, but they're very, you know, they

27:24

believe their government, they don't necessarily question

27:26

them, Americans do,

27:29

right? So to see Japan have

27:31

such a large rally against WHO

27:34

and then see some great studies

27:36

coming out of Japan on vaccine

27:38

injury, it's really amazing. It

27:40

tells you that we all share the same

27:42

flow and whoever that flow

27:44

is, we know what they're trying to

27:46

achieve and that's to kind of have

27:49

us all under global governance because we

27:51

all need to be told what to

27:53

do in our lives. And instead, all

27:56

we want is freedom for ourselves and for

27:58

our children and for the future. are

28:00

generations really. I

28:03

agree and it's a it's a real

28:05

David and Goliath fight and I

28:08

think everybody who understands what

28:10

has been proposed will

28:12

recognize the lateness

28:15

of the hour and they will also

28:17

recognize the moral clarity of

28:19

which side is in the right. We

28:22

have to win this not

28:24

for ourselves but for future

28:26

generations. These powers must not

28:28

stand because they are fundamentally

28:31

inconsistent with the sovereignty of

28:33

nations and the sovereignty of

28:35

people. We

28:38

need to celebrate this thing so far but

28:40

like you said keep the pressure going until

28:42

this is over and done with and no

28:44

one signs on this treaty or the amendments

28:46

to international health regulation. Fantastic

28:49

so I would ask people to

28:52

stay tuned. Kat

28:55

you are easily findable on

28:58

X. Someone

29:00

Twitter yes. Yes what's your

29:02

handle? K

29:04

L Veritas B E R I

29:06

P A S. K

29:08

L Veritas people should also

29:11

follow Meryl Nass and David

29:13

Bell. These are

29:15

all excellent sources of

29:18

information and inspiration I would say. They've

29:20

both been very courageous in this fight

29:22

as have you. Is there anything

29:24

else you think people should know

29:26

before we close this out? No

29:29

I just want to emphasize that

29:31

point you know celebrate this when we've done great

29:33

work we're going to continue doing great work but

29:36

you need to keep on the keep the pressure

29:38

on. Yeah let's

29:40

win it let us decisively kill

29:42

this off. We

29:44

will know we have succeeded when the World

29:46

Health Organization removes

29:49

the proposal entirely. All

29:54

right thanks so much Kat I really appreciate

29:56

the update and keep up the good fight.

30:00

www.mooji.org