0:00

when you're i went to def con the annual

0:02

hacker conference and at defcon

0:05

there's something called roots it's basically

0:07

def con kids were it's a whole village

0:09

set up just for kids to learn how to hack

0:12

i ducked my head in there to check out the seen

0:14

kids were learning how to solder how to pick

0:16

locks how to hack voting machines

0:19

and how to hack websites there

0:21

are talks in this roots village

0:23

to and there was a girl onstage

0:26

probably ten years old and she

0:28

was talking about how she had a video

0:30

game on her phone the game

0:32

with some kind of farming game where

0:35

you have to plant your seeds and then wait a certain amount

0:37

of actual real days for

0:39

the crops to grow well she didn't like

0:41

having to wait so she turn the clock

0:43

forward on her phone and then got back

0:45

in the game to see if the crops had grown at all but

0:48

the din it there was some kind of check

0:50

that the game was using to see if people were

0:52

doing this but she didn't stop

0:54

there she tried again this time she

0:57

tried turning the wi-fi off on her

0:59

phone and then the clock in

1:01

when she open the game back up. Boom.

1:03

All her crops at fully grown.

1:06

She figured it out a

1:08

ten-year-old, figured out how to hack this

1:10

farming game, which was one

1:12

of the coolest talks I've ever seen

1:14

at Defcon.

1:20

These are true stories from the Dark

1:22

Side of the internet.

1:26

I'm Jack reciter. This

1:29

is darknet Diaries.

1:48

Support for the show comes from grammarly.

1:50

Is it just me or does life seem be

1:52

getting busier? And busier, and

1:54

when being pulled from one task to another,

1:57

our head is not always in the game

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to write. the them those Luckily

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2:57

Hey

2:59

friends. i just want to thank

3:01

you again for being here with mean listening to

3:04

the stuff i create do

3:06

, listener means the world to me

3:08

and i love you you wanna

3:11

go down around always around some

3:13

stuff i stumbled into that's kind

3:15

of crazy and you might already know

3:17

about this but i didn't and i love

3:19

finding new pockets of crazy stuff

3:21

happening on the internet so come

3:23

along with me and let me say something to

3:26

be able to matthew lewis is ah my birthday

3:28

the legend of a failed the demon lot of

3:30

actually that you have an opening clip of a you tube

3:32

video call me no actually it's

3:35

so i have no idea what it says here let's

3:37

see what google translate he

3:39

can come into may seem

3:42

ah weird do

3:44

i know russians the

3:47

these birds it it did

3:49

it say cheaters documentary

3:51

film hairless and again to

3:53

kill a local me and then they seem

3:56

to see three ducks human the

3:58

film well now i'm

4:00

going to make exceed three document on the

4:03

podcast smith's so it

4:05

came to my intention that there are a

4:07

brace yourself people are

4:09

cheating in video games than

4:11

, the say it's probably

4:14

the most well known fact about video games

4:16

and to be honest people have been telling me about

4:18

this many times and i was kind of leg

4:20

yeah of course people cheat does

4:23

in fact the first hack i ever did was manipulating

4:25

the save game file on some cities and giving

4:27

myself nine hundred ninety nine billion seven

4:30

dollars so as to say here's

4:32

my seat earth but someone i

4:34

was chatting with was like no no like is a crazy

4:37

industry and industry still wasn't interested

4:39

i'm like yeah of course game

4:41

genie and , really didn't care because

4:44

so what if there's a cheater in a game is

4:46

just a game and you the

4:49

and take a look at what the spurs was telling

4:51

me and i was like whoa let's

4:54

and , immediately thought of you

4:56

my listener and how you would probably want

4:58

to hear about this tooth so let's get into

5:01

it now i've been working

5:03

on this episode four teas six

5:05

months now tanks him bed myself

5:07

in the game cheating community to get an inside

5:09

look and i did sorta

5:12

i talked with all kinds of people involved

5:14

in that seat seen developers distributors

5:16

admins and players distributors admins

5:18

wasn't able to get wasn't

5:20

to agree to a voice interview

5:23

which was really frustrating when you can chat

5:25

on discord with someone for hours and hours

5:27

and day after day who are open to just

5:29

about anything yet don't want to have

5:33

ah it's a little frustrating and

5:35

this was the person who turned me down it

5:37

was every single person i chatted with so

5:40

i'm sitting here now just looking at the

5:42

pages of chat dialogue with these people

5:45

and well the

5:48

your show hey why not

5:50

get a voice actor to read the chat messages

5:52

out thousand as the was sent can you email

5:55

right yeah yeah this is sounds

5:57

great thanks for doing this yeah no

5:59

problem what you gonna read for

6:01

me is kind of a mashup of all the conversations

6:04

i had with few different people it's not

6:06

just you going

6:08

to read from many different conversations

6:11

and i'm not so much interested in the actual people

6:13

who are cheating in the games are more

6:16

interested in the money and the

6:18

battle between developers so

6:21

i'm the admin have admin website

6:24

that provides call of duty

6:26

battlefields apex legends

6:28

days the another so why do you do this

6:31

because

6:32

paid a lot of money for seats how

6:34

much do you charge for say it

6:36

seat in the game daisy currency

6:39

, public seats are twenty nine

6:41

dollars ninety nine four

6:43

seven days but

6:45

we have private seats to that i resist

6:47

for only a few trusts clients

6:50

ways you can only use the chief for seven days

6:52

than what happens

6:54

a more to keep using his oh okay

6:57

first of all i thought game chiefs were free

7:00

i realized people were buying them but

7:02

not only are they buying them they're paying

7:05

more for that she'd than they are for the game itself

7:07

and i'm extra surprised that it's a subscription

7:10

based model yeah it's because

7:14

the game

7:15

always putting their game which makes

7:17

it so that she doesn't work so

7:20

, need to find a new way to exploit the game

7:22

we have to always bedevil okay which

7:24

costs money money how many people

7:26

are on your team i team

7:28

the admin of the website and owner

7:31

the i have owner and who creates

7:33

the cheats and loader i i'm

7:35

a supporter but not

7:38

on choosing sides have their own developers insect

7:41

not all cheats or even real the

7:44

i thought that a promise to provide seeds but

7:46

they don't work then

7:49

there are developers and recent us say

7:51

us say fine select starting creates they

7:54

can package that up and sulky to reseller

7:57

the reseller then creates website or listing

7:59

somewhere that a wedding season if

8:02

someone buys the resellers yourself from the key

8:04

to use to cheat that they got from the devil up so

8:07

to different people are making money from this the

8:09

developers and resellers why

8:11

wouldn't the developer just sell directly to players

8:15

developers the focus on developing

8:17

not marketing and selling are dealing with

8:19

customers and money transactions the

8:22

developer fines alert then

8:24

they don't have to continually look for

8:26

new bias the refillable do all the

8:28

legwork also because

8:32

they can just accept or permanent bitcoin

8:34

hello giving them away to hide better

8:37

okay so in this scenario where there's a developer

8:39

and a reseller who's making

8:41

more money

8:44

how much to do cheat developers

8:46

make from this mm they can

8:48

make anywhere from a few bucks to five

8:51

hundred

8:52

a medium sized cheat would bring in about

8:54

twenty two h k a month whole

8:56

, that's a lot more than a regular

8:59

job as a developer yeah and

9:01

and resellers can make good money to

9:03

anything is possible okay

9:05

i'm

9:06

at your website now the buying process is

9:09

unlike anything i've ever seen before

9:11

it's crazy you can't just buy and

9:13

download this and begin using it

9:16

can you walk me through what it takes

9:18

for someone to buy this

9:20

before you can buy a cheap you must be verified

9:23

you must which

9:25

must include your real name date of birth

9:27

country and links to approach has on she'd forums

9:30

and we will you

9:33

which , you're interested in buying and

9:35

three separate photo id is is

9:38

a national id card passport

9:41

or driver's or we

9:43

also need to sell seen as

9:46

way too much that

9:50

someone

9:52

that she can be three photo id three series

9:56

there's a lot of people who would love to get their

9:58

hands on seats and we

10:00

need to protect them protect

10:02

, from who who

10:06

game this competitors

10:09

ah yes this makes sense

10:12

they must hate when

10:14

new teaser developed if

10:16

they could get their hands on that seeds they

10:18

could probably six it right away and

10:20

this makes me curious what game deaths

10:23

are doing about this server

10:25

my name is arthur murray currently work on

10:29

dying light sure to an excellent

10:31

and before that i were to blame ya

10:33

interactive ah , on

10:35

a game called easy which was the one where the

10:37

ah i guess guess whole security

10:40

singer on game started forming now

10:42

it also was not easy to find a

10:44

game developer to come on the show to

10:46

talk about how they're battling nice cheat

10:48

thinkers because this is an

10:51

act of war zones game dev

10:53

don't takes on how

10:55

their but i did

10:57

find eugene here because he gave

11:00

that a conference and he's willing to talk

11:02

about the old stories he had from when

11:04

he was working on the game dc five

11:06

years ago what ,

11:09

what were the cheaters like in the game what were

11:11

they doing okay so so

11:13

might be a bit of a specific example below

11:16

going to be the beatles degenerate like when you think

11:18

about cheating you can say though

11:20

is very beginning an unfair advantage of any

11:22

of with doesn't mind you know like

11:24

it can we will be broken down the was pointing and

11:26

which abuse which is where they're basically

11:28

using something that using already is

11:31

wrong to the games are about to be introduced

11:33

ourselves or a glitch that

11:36

is not part of being from the design and

11:39

against a common place on an injection

11:41

which was also very common and

11:44

i'll do my some reason affirmation of impulse

11:46

to basically elevate any manual

11:48

work disarm intended

11:50

by design ah inside the game so

11:52

all these things was a country where happening

11:55

in these years from now we're only talking

11:57

about online games here we are playing against

11:59

other play

12:00

there's some of the exploits for sale today

12:02

promise to give players extra abilities such

12:04

as being able to see exact locations

12:06

of other players or a bus which

12:09

point your weapon for you all you need to do is

12:11

click the mouse button

12:12

i get and some other things like being able to

12:15

go through walls or making your own hitbox

12:17

smaller why disadvantaged

12:19

game through cheating is an unfair advantage

12:22

to all the other players in the game it

12:24

ruins the fun

12:26

the generally means a process of learning and

12:28

overcoming a system and events the case

12:31

is , they're doing is not not

12:33

a like damaging others people be screened season

12:35

they're doing only for their own experience generally

12:37

is not a problem okay so

12:40

how problem okay of a problem

12:42

is this for video game companies like

12:44

the how much we

12:45

the video game companies or maybe

12:47

even just a c put into

12:50

fighting this so i i

12:52

met the a bunch of people in the space

12:54

and despicable busy first

12:57

we're the five people deserve

12:59

educated just to the subject to different on county

13:01

external speakers so must

13:03

feel some for was the creator of butterfly was like

13:05

damn which was the simulation

13:08

, were using to protect the game basically

13:10

the common amputees also used many other

13:12

games ah without combustion

13:16

helping us with the subject they would be like six people

13:19

and if if at different direction of much

13:21

more are largely games and competitive

13:23

games like league of legends as

13:25

far as i know that

13:27

twenty five plus or something whoa

13:30

there's a twenty five person team

13:32

just within the game league of legends as

13:34

primary job is to focus on finding

13:37

season fixing them of crazy

13:40

league of legends his own by riot

13:42

games and according to wikipedia there are twenty

13:44

five hundred employees at riot games but

13:46

even still twenty five as a lot of people dedicated

13:49

to just stopping i

13:52

don't know i'm just shocked by that because

13:54

when you play these games and encounter cheater

13:56

that feels like cheaters are everywhere in the games

13:59

and the game makers sorta gave up

14:01

trying to fight it or do very little

14:03

to stop it but now i'm realizing

14:05

game makers actually put a lot

14:08

of effort in some battling it and they take

14:10

it very seriously and another

14:12

thing eugene just said was dead game makers

14:14

use battle i to help stop to

14:17

an anti cheat engine game

14:19

makers can integrate it into their game

14:22

and it's job is to examine all player

14:24

behavior to identify

14:26

a rotting teeth and claws the game

14:28

before it can affect the good it's

14:31

no integrated into over fifty games

14:33

and that allows has his own team of developers

14:35

to help detect and stop cheaters they

14:37

can check for things like if the player is pushing

14:39

buttons at an inhuman rate or

14:41

if the players position move too fast for

14:43

with the game allows or if they're win rate

14:45

is higher than normal and they can try to analyze

14:48

to analyze game to see if they're exploiting anything

14:50

and and then the player and reports the

14:53

exploits of the game developers and that's

14:55

just battle i there's also other anti cheat

14:57

software like punk buster easy

14:59

anti cheat and v a see what

15:01

i'm realizing is that because there's so

15:03

many the aim it spawned

15:06

this whole secondary offshoot

15:08

industry of anti cheat

15:10

software solutions and again

15:12

that's on top of the dedicated seen that

15:14

the video game company already has working

15:16

on this and so now

15:18

we start to see how there are some

15:20

serious enemies in this space

15:23

battle i is out there to try to ruin

15:26

the game cheating industry which

15:28

is game bold thing to set out to do to try to

15:30

ruin a whole industry and the chipmakers

15:33

out there are trying to build working seeds

15:35

but then also make it's make battle it's can't detected

15:38

the currently be developing new strategies

15:41

to be undetected and find new seats

15:43

in the game

15:46

experience for players and not let their game

15:48

get overrun or ruined by cheaters

15:51

we're going to take a quick ad break here but

15:53

stay with us because when we come back people

15:56

start playing dirty

16:00

want a break for a moment until you about another podcast

16:02

i think you'll enjoy if you were a the know

16:04

exactly what goes on behind closed

16:06

would you really wanna know that's

16:09

the central question of two codes news podcast

16:11

listening in sorry the marvelous

16:13

of mrs may's old rachel brosnahan

16:16

listening in follows julia a lonely

16:18

writer and recent new york transplants who

16:20

one day expenses a glitch in her

16:22

home speaker systems that starts transmitting

16:25

conversations from her neighbors apartments

16:27

but by begins as a voyeuristic method of procrastination

16:30

soon devolved into a situation with real

16:32

growth consequences julia

16:34

quickly realized that she doesn't know who can

16:36

be trusted and makes that are mission to uncover

16:39

the truth and she learns that nothing

16:41

is as it seems from the makers

16:43

of last known position and soft voice

16:45

listening in this is uniquely modern

16:48

mystery thriller available now

16:53

look it up to show is called listening in

16:57

game demos and

17:00

she does don't like each other

17:02

game doves are always trying to ruin

17:04

the cheating industry which means that seat

17:06

developers sometimes just wake up

17:09

some days and suddenly the main product isn't

17:11

working anymore which means that see

17:13

developers need to scramble to get the

17:15

kings

17:16

they also have haters who are actively attacking

17:18

us trying to bring our seats down would

17:21

you mean like or competitors

17:23

other cheek makers sometimes

17:25

the tigers and lots of people

17:27

get mad at us because they just hate and name

17:29

cheaters so we get the doors

17:33

and then we have to spend more money on tito's

17:35

prevention and pay for extra band with when that

17:37

happens okay so now

17:39

it's make sense on why you ask

17:41

for three forms of id before giving

17:44

someone your teeth your don't want

17:46

your sheets landing sheets landing wrong hands

17:49

if it does a could make it

17:51

unusable very quickly exactly

17:54

so have you ever tried to buy the teach yourself

17:56

the blue first like a paid ones

17:59

little and successful where are you

18:01

pretty successful republic was pretty

18:03

easy to the way we did it's the first

18:06

thing that we need to my , a

18:08

implement these kinds of apartment the programs

18:10

and the ability to like by chance to recruited

18:13

by to convert to physically separate my forties and

18:15

companies that have a different style network

18:17

on some of the internet and we were using

18:19

it as basically a separate lab where

18:21

we are buying seats and milner and

18:24

disassembling them them

18:26

ah inside visibility space there

18:28

have we had like couple people working on it's

18:30

like reverse engineer and and my son

18:32

into managers were trying to buy to

18:35

be or impersonate people were like

18:37

wasn't for it seems both in my public and

18:39

private space so for public easy they

18:41

will see the counseling bite ah

18:44

so paper money which was like deposited by the

18:46

company an hour because

18:48

other times it was like a bow

18:51

transfer i think there

18:53

was something even we scraped off on

18:55

such an awesome generally basically alternative for

18:57

basically methods and them

19:00

are we would have distress and like look for these

19:02

public and private she's trying to fly as

19:04

much of them as possible and i

19:06

both provide them to be an npc

19:09

program we were using so and were if possible

19:11

use also our own reverse engineered to figure

19:13

out how they to breaking the game and

19:15

this are of buying the kids will

19:18

soon on easy on the public sides

19:20

as long as you know ah sides make

19:22

long like created yards from the

19:24

company on like using

19:26

the name of developments a topic on they once in

19:28

a band these accounts out

19:31

but when he first average of arms you know

19:33

it is sometimes meant you would have to have i'm

19:35

i'm is sky by secure i

19:37

see became facebook whatever or

19:40

on forums there that you can be channels are dedicated

19:42

website and website

19:45

we've been there are cases where people were asking

19:47

for like the idea is to confirm

19:50

identity of the purchaser especially some

19:52

will be supervised ones with they're selling five to

19:54

ten twenty thirty people

19:56

and asking for asking very sizable very

19:59

sizable like one hundred dollars five hundred

20:01

dollars because we seen even those i

20:03

want people are willing to pay five hundred to have to have

20:05

she is just for them does what they

20:08

wanted one that he's like a devil pretty if

20:10

anything for shop and and they will fix

20:12

it for them so are you

20:15

, know as as different

20:17

like even users multiple accounts

20:20

multiple a know like separate networks to

20:22

be are using an interest isn't

20:24

on the oldies like channels so over whether of

20:26

my bachelors and states have been happening

20:29

but it's not as easy as just posing as someone

20:32

else to buy these sheets loading

20:34

and running the cheat running game is also

20:36

game very delicate process

20:39

to be careful about because the

20:41

cheap makers are watching that part

20:45

what does your cheat work

20:47

if i bought

20:48

the i need to do to get to work we

20:51

have have you first from the loader

20:54

then runs the actual game it's

20:56

sort of a rep for the game coming

20:59

in and out go through the slaughter all

21:01

memories the loader and

21:04

the loader manipulates the data to

21:06

make that she'd work

21:09

it by is there a log in features loader

21:11

how do you know when my subscription has

21:13

run out real lesson

21:17

run the loader you enter in a license

21:19

key and that makes the teeth valid for that many

21:21

days talking with

21:23

the cheat seller more they tell me that there

21:25

are also ways to identify the machine

21:27

at the loader is running on and

21:29

the key becomes tied to that machine

21:31

id so he may be may combination of

21:33

host name mac address ip address

21:35

where other identifiers and

21:37

with that also you can't share

21:40

the cheat with others so will only work on

21:42

the first machine you install it on

21:44

now let's stop here for a second and recognize

21:47

how desperate some people are to

21:49

get the chiefs paying thirty dollars

21:52

to use a cheap for seven days as

21:54

pricey enough if you ask me but

21:57

on top of that you have to give the website

21:59

three form the id and

22:01

then you download and install and

22:03

run a program from a cd

22:05

underground parking website

22:08

whoever is buying this stuff really

22:10

has to ignore several red flags

22:12

to get it them to makers

22:15

and take advantage of it you should look into a

22:18

kid okay ,

22:20

kids this was the seeds

22:22

for the game rust that you had to pay

22:24

forty dollars pay month used and players

22:27

reported that the cheap was never

22:29

undetectable meeting battle

22:31

undetectable could easily spotted if you are using are

22:33

seat and bang you so to begin

22:35

with aims hit was not was quality cheat

22:37

you buy it you then in

22:40

this is not how you what your cheat experience to go

22:42

good seats go undetected anyway

22:45

when users thirty complaining about the streets

22:47

other users started typing up to saying

22:50

after installing it they gods their discord

22:52

accounts band and , supposedly

22:54

was happening was the loader was not

22:56

just providing and seats but also grabbing

22:59

a few things off that computer that it was installed

23:01

on and sending it back to the does

23:04

that aim kids such as

23:06

discord loggins and who

23:08

knows what else supposedly the

23:10

aim kit does used those discord

23:12

loggins to do thinks i'm guessing

23:15

spam channels are people and that

23:17

got the person banned from discord

23:20

but that's just one example of

23:22

example game see that was actually the

23:24

un user information and causing harm to

23:26

the user but there are far worse

23:28

once in this eugene says

23:30

when he buys he sees is

23:33

always expecting them to be malware or

23:35

some kind of spell backs so he has

23:37

to take extra precautions when installing

23:39

them were both a british to be sent us

23:41

be the it was of course i'm like separate network

23:43

physically are in the

23:45

him as wrestle the proportions we could

23:47

let you play was in the company

23:50

what the implications of this and did

23:52

it downloaded oldest and database i was

23:54

and is all sorts of the guides

23:56

and when you're into those guys database guys database can

23:58

see that he was as the we're

24:01

so as soon as he basically send us something

24:03

which was not working and besides complained

24:05

is breaking he was goal medication

24:08

immediately because he would figure out the were a

24:10

developer so they go to like greek really

24:13

why are you saying that when they send you the

24:15

loader or the

24:17

seat in that that is he

24:19

the data on your computer to confirm who you

24:22

are you ready to explode my little

24:24

to the times you know what i

24:26

should have expected that actually i remember

24:28

downloading games when i was a teenager from dodgy

24:30

web sites and half of them did

24:33

contain malware why would contain expected

24:35

to be any difference day even day

24:38

downloading any executable from

24:40

a say the website is never a good idea

24:43

so this this when video game developers

24:45

good seats the put it on a fresh computer

24:47

that doesn't have any sensitive files on it's on

24:50

it's own separate network because

24:52

the developers of the seats watch

24:54

to see who's using their seats and

24:56

me

24:57

note on wed game there's eyepiece

25:00

are are and blockade if it matches

25:02

but this also makes it hard for hard game developers

25:05

to share that seat with the dev team

25:07

or battle lights since they can't send

25:09

this send this someone else or what work on another computer

25:12

so game developers have to say what

25:14

does tops either people can come into that

25:16

machine and analyze it or install it on a virtual

25:19

machine eugene also tells me that

25:21

sometimes people from that sikh community

25:23

will come forward and just give them

25:25

a cheat often through their bug bounty program

25:27

but sometimes not sometimes they just

25:30

get sense a working executable that

25:32

has a cheat in it clearly

25:34

something that this person boy it's but

25:36

didn't develop and are willing to share it with

25:38

a game developer and i think

25:40

what's going on here is that it could be

25:42

infighting among other two deaths

25:45

were if one see provider wants to ruin

25:47

the business for another t provider the

25:50

cheat and then give it to the games who

25:52

would then fix it to make that see that weren't which

25:55

, more people by the working one

25:58

feel like we had trouble

26:00

kind of for i like approaches

26:02

to have like a revelation on our side and

26:04

people from the community but you can community

26:06

that would act was double agents for us and

26:09

by it additional

26:11

information or like that the binaries of

26:13

a certain cheat illustrated super

26:16

it's crazy how being a game

26:18

developer today means you

26:20

i have to poses a double agent acting like

26:22

a cheater to get your hands on some chiefs or

26:25

you might have to work with double agents who are

26:27

in the cheat community but feel like exposing

26:29

someone it's a crazy battle

26:31

that's taking place and sometimes all

26:34

this gets personal emotion

26:37

involved this i for a to

26:39

to a cheat the

26:42

game and it very and

26:45

to develop an in the game

26:48

the sit down and try manipulating

26:50

the endgame data to try to find something

26:52

that gives them an advantage and am i take

26:54

weeks the when they do it's got a few

26:56

grades that you outsmarted the game

26:58

makers they must feel like they

27:00

know stuff about the game that the developers

27:03

don't even know so i bet

27:05

there's a bit of a celebration that goes on after

27:07

the find a new cheat of ,

27:10

getting paid for that brings all kinds of new

27:12

emotions to rights dopamine hits

27:14

for sure but then that

27:16

comes crashing down when the game

27:18

studio detect sit and patches

27:21

it now hi

27:23

that the t had goes

27:25

away and they could get mad

27:28

wanna know who exactly

27:31

was the game developer that ruin the party

27:34

and , their name and start insulting

27:36

them over twitter twitter now

27:39

this is where things start getting start regal

27:42

really close with his people and

27:44

by cause i mean they can open source

27:46

is a kind of of doesn't without a full numbers

27:49

and men like private accounts they

27:51

never i soon never actually

27:54

been to a nearby accounts because

27:56

most of them grow louder under to federal

27:59

to pick a summer i distinctly stripe

28:02

with these collections to these people

28:04

i middle of the from weird characters each

28:07

team says he was going to give to talk about cedars

28:09

at gdc the game developer

28:12

and apparently the game cheaters started a

28:14

go fund me campaign to raise money

28:17

to what was it there than raise money for

28:20

to be able to pay for the tickets to the pc

28:23

to come to the presentation and told me there

28:25

may well , gave

28:27

the presentation at the conference and

28:29

there were no trolls and the our hands but

28:32

he was docks and had

28:34

many invalid

28:36

his accounts and the got

28:38

all kinds of weird messages threats

28:41

you , the fixed abode hated the

28:43

most were like the creepy calls in always

28:46

i would pick up a for women in our it consists

28:48

of my work for minimum

28:50

collingwood i generally pick it up because it can be a

28:52

new about our partners and i would like have

28:55

the same with things

28:57

being said to me or like people

28:59

contacting my family members sending

29:02

them like weird goalie pictures and

29:05

moines iowa like why

29:07

would you like make a

29:10

well that's why we started like my family

29:12

member like member don't i'm fucking get like okay with

29:15

bother me at least example to me on twitter bother

29:17

me on my news from freaking messenger and

29:19

then we were said just don't call

29:21

me in call the don't bother people around

29:23

me that i'm doing my so it kind of prompted

29:25

me to be more me know

29:29

secure about lot of my life

29:31

i don't use them as as much or use them in

29:33

or more in the past it's just like open

29:36

up it's , wild

29:38

that the game dad's and

29:40

the cheetahs are both getting

29:42

attacked in this space and it's

29:44

and weird parallel with the

29:46

game itself the game in the game

29:48

their battles taking place so in

29:51

but then outside the game

29:55

q and as much

29:57

higher stakes clicking

30:01

around on one of these web these

30:04

the new that says this cheat is

30:08

what stream proof

30:11

it's not detectable on twitch oh

30:14

so switch seats you're cheating the banu

30:17

the someone streaming they can

30:19

see the cheat thought the views of the stream

30:21

don't see the cheat oh

30:23

, crazy that's a

30:25

whole nother level of sophistication in this

30:28

the person playing with the cheats on

30:30

can see the locations of the other players

30:32

whatever extra perception they have but

30:34

that's not visible to weber's

30:36

watching them play on the stream

30:39

this they are like so much

30:41

better than they actually interviewers

30:44

have no idea the cheating is

30:46

, amazing amazing

30:49

there's a lot of people who make a living

30:51

from streaming themselves playing video games

30:54

and i imagine better players get more

30:56

viewers than worse players having

30:59

that live

31:00

is to help you look better than you are

31:03

probably pays off to the streamers

31:06

the like personally cheating for

31:08

fun but cheating in competition

31:11

is lame do people cheat

31:13

in competitions yeah it's

31:16

a very small customer base but we

31:18

work with some pro players for them

31:20

they use a trend cash prizes and tournaments

31:23

and who doesn't like more money i

31:25

, see why has taken so seriously by game

31:27

developers is there a cash prize tournaments

31:30

for a game you make you want that game

31:32

to be as fair as possible possible

31:35

game cheating at her intimate level reflects

31:37

just as badly on the game itself as

31:40

it does on the on i talked

31:42

with two different owners of these seating

31:44

web sites and i ask one of them is

31:47

what you do any legal they said

31:49

no then i am

31:52

and now he said yeah some

31:55

have been called like measles soft mrs

31:58

asked

32:00

don't forget what or who that

32:02

is ah here's a video this

32:04

teenage has a runs a smaller of rationed

32:06

from the netherlands

32:08

it can still make almost fifteen hundred pounds

32:10

a week and a customer base is

32:12

growing that said clip from a

32:15

bb

32:15

the that the journalist joe tidy

32:18

did you could you could get into series of this

32:20

could jam if ,

32:22

results in a size six dollars for you

32:24

and because of copyright infringement of your your

32:27

and for it's and fun job interviews

32:29

what looks like what seventeen year old kids this

32:31

who claimed to be making and sending seats

32:34

and the kids

32:35

whether you do and how they work well

32:37

one month after appearing on bbc

32:40

ubisoft was able to identify this

32:42

young man and sue him turned

32:45

out who's running a website called mizzou soft

32:47

selling game seeds for ubisoft and

32:49

ubisoft at all this information this information guy his

32:51

name address is web sites his

32:54

parents information to the bbc

32:56

dinner tournament but if you the

32:58

to talk about the underground activity you're

33:00

doing your op sec is probably not

33:02

the best since , was only seventeen

33:05

when he was hit with as lawsuits ubisoft

33:07

just ask for the website to be taken down

33:09

to immediately stopped developing and selling

33:11

kids for the game and they wanted a copy

33:14

of other cheese he had and some

33:16

kind of financial compensation for the damage

33:18

that they suffered from it i believe

33:20

that lawsuit is still ongoing and still

33:23

the get in contact with the guy the owner

33:25

of missive soft we chatted

33:27

for a while he ultimately said

33:30

about the case so ,

33:32

turned down which is typical for

33:34

the scene but there are but there other

33:36

stories like mizzou soft apparently

33:39

there was it she going around for a pokemon

33:41

go and this seat was called poker

33:43

go plus plus and it allowed you

33:45

to move to another location without having

33:48

to leave your house but the game developers

33:50

discovered hook the cheat and sued

33:52

them the case the old there's

33:56

he'd five million dollars in

33:58

settlements then

34:01

there was another story that joe tidy from the bbc

34:03

reported saying the

34:06

biggest videogame cheat operation

34:08

was busted by the chinese police

34:11

the , says ten cents and the chinese

34:13

police work together to arrest the crew

34:15

responsible for making seats for

34:18

ten cent games the bus resulted

34:20

in several luxury sports cars

34:22

being seized there's a photo that has

34:24

a lamborghini or ferrari and mclaren

34:27

mercedes and a land rover these were all

34:29

seized by the police and fact the police reported

34:31

they seized forty six million dollars

34:33

worth of luxury cars a loan from this

34:35

crew and they reported that

34:37

these seats made seventy

34:40

six million dollars from selling

34:42

keys for ten cent games ten

34:45

people were who were involved

34:47

with this and it was quite an operation

34:49

for the chinese police as

34:52

i dig through court cases i start seeing

34:54

even more things shop things

34:56

two thousand two thousand epic games suit

34:58

a fifteen year old you tube or for

35:00

advertising she's on his channel the

35:02

complaint says he was selling fortnight she's for

35:05

two hundred

35:06

each and what's really weird here

35:08

is this you tube or made a video saying

35:10

he gets sued or like

35:14

thirty thousand pages in the mail from the

35:18

i wanna see it's kinda weird affairs

35:21

single no

35:24

cap and i are you have a pretty

35:26

good attorney so that

35:28

, the last video this kid ever

35:30

post and and spent three years now now

35:33

in this case epic saying the boy violated

35:35

the copyright law

35:37

okay guess i can see thats perhaps

35:39

thats the best legal leg to stand on in this case

35:42

a in june to thousand twenty one bungy

35:44

sued am junkies dot com for

35:47

infringing on their intellectual property

35:49

apparently this site was selling cheats for the game

35:52

destiny but am junkies is trying

35:54

to get this case think bungie

35:56

is embellishing and exaggerating what happened

35:58

and as misusing the league the system there's

36:01

one cheat developers trying to fight

36:03

back i'm not sure how that's going for

36:05

them earlier in two thousand twenty

36:07

two activision sued to german

36:10

creating seeds for called activision

36:13

as saying these companies are violating copyright

36:15

laws and that case still ongoing

36:18

and are quite are few other cases in the air epic

36:21

games are saying they've issued over a half

36:23

dozen losses to cheat makers now but

36:25

the problem that is game makers have is

36:27

the often have a hard time tracking down the who

36:30

that she developers are to issue losses

36:32

to them and sometimes when they do find

36:34

her there that

36:36

lawsuits is don't have that much of an impact

36:38

to keep makers and ,

36:41

so i learn more about all this have

36:43

come to the conclusion that i don't like cheaters

36:46

i think they do ruin the game for other

36:48

players at least online games right

36:50

cheat all you want if it just affects you but when

36:52

you're battling against other players and

36:54

used to beat them and you're ruining their

36:57

game that's not cool nobody

37:00

likes nobody so i agree

37:02

it's wrong but i'm torn on

37:04

what should be done to stop this okay

37:07

issue okay cease and desist great and you

37:09

can hope that seat developers stop there but

37:12

many aren't all that she does i

37:14

spoke to said they received cease and desist

37:16

letters but they kept on do so

37:19

what should be the next steps that game

37:21

makers should do call , cops

37:24

issue lawsuits lawsuits a

37:26

cease and desist letter is easy is his email

37:28

that seat support team telling them stop

37:30

what you're what the issuing a lawsuit

37:33

requires you to know who the person

37:35

is that person suing was another game

37:37

makers have to sort of investigate coup

37:39

that cheap developers are for this

37:42

which this don't know could result

37:44

in some kind of hack back

37:46

type of activity like

37:49

fishing the see makers and try to get

37:51

info on them i , it's possible

37:54

but unethical just

37:56

weird to think that their game studios

37:58

out there that are in the

38:01

try to figure out the real identity

38:03

and location of who these seats developers

38:05

are what , to be happening

38:07

or game makers are using high

38:09

priced lawyers to try to intimidate

38:12

seat developers saying things like

38:14

we're gonna sue you for the maximum allowable

38:16

mount which may be millions of dollars

38:19

or some other big scary things and

38:22

i suppose some of this works it it's the cheaters

38:24

to just stop what they're doing and not

38:26

do it anymore but it'll be interesting

38:29

if someone does challenge a

38:31

lawsuit like that and wins because

38:33

i don't know maybe the some

38:35

our prove that cheating is any legal legal

38:38

so weird legal issue

38:40

for issue and i worry because

38:43

corporations have bullied people in the past

38:45

with lawsuits because someone

38:47

violated their terms of service or

38:49

some other made up rule which

38:51

has had has horrible look up to

38:54

jihad is aaron swartz so

38:56

it seems like for now the

38:58

best tactic is for game

39:00

makers to solo this one

39:02

themselves and dial it on their own and

39:05

i mean in game by putting more

39:07

resources into securing the game code

39:10

and game clients and adding more being

39:12

a detection mechanisms to try to find

39:14

when players heat and forced them to quit

39:17

but , course with every shot fired by

39:19

the game studios that seat

39:21

makers try to dodge it and heal

39:24

up and move forward and

39:26

this

39:47

the

39:53

big thank you to eugene hardened for sharing some

39:55

of the insights from the game developers point of view

39:57

and also thanks to everyone i try to with over tmz

40:00

gord to give me inside scoop some

40:02

what's going on this episode was

40:04

great of i may your commanding officer jacqui

40:06

cider original music this episode

40:08

is created by the demo man garrett seat of

40:10

in mixing done by proximity sound

40:12

editing how by the medic damien in our

40:14

theme music is by the king of the hill break

40:17

master cylinder i was blown

40:19

was balloon the other day and i was thinking inside

40:22

this c o two right it's

40:24

compressed right