0:00

Hey friends, how are you getting on? I

0:02

hope you're doing okay because it is a

0:04

crazy time to be alive, but it's

0:06

also a wonderful time. I'm in

0:08

the middle of well needed mental health

0:10

break. I thought a

0:11

month long break would be enough for me, but

0:13

no, I'm gonna need a full three month break

0:15

here to get my head back in the game. The truth

0:17

is I'm just not able to deliver you the

0:20

quality programming that you're used to

0:22

with my head being somewhere else. So I'm

0:24

taking some time for myself after going almost

0:26

nonstop on this podcast for five years, making

0:28

a hundred and twenty hours of content for

0:30

you to enjoy. That's what, like, ten

0:33

novels worth of stuff anyway.

0:35

Let me tell you, this break has been

0:38

transformational, but I've

0:40

got more work to do, and I'm far from done.

0:43

I know a lot of you are really itching

0:45

for something new from me, and I think that's

0:47

very flattering to see how much you miss me, but I don't

0:49

have anything ready for you yet. However,

0:52

there's a podcast I listen to sometimes called

0:54

spy cast and I always find it's super

0:56

fascinating. I mean, the show interviews spies

0:59

and it's wild. So I wanted to

1:01

share with you an episode that I handpicked

1:04

that I thought you might like. My plan is

1:06

to reemerge in April with some new Darknet

1:08

episodes. But in the meantime, give

1:10

this episode of Spycast a shot and look

1:12

after

1:13

yourself. Take it away, Andrew.

1:16

Hi, and welcome to Spycast.

1:20

I'm your host, doctor Andrew Hammond,

1:23

a sorting curator here at

1:25

international spy museum in

1:27

Washington DC. Spycast

1:31

sole purpose is to educate

1:33

our listeners about past, present

1:35

and future of intelligence and

1:37

espionage. Every week,

1:39

through engaging conversations, we explore some

1:42

aspect of a vast ecosystem

1:44

that limbs beneath the surface of

1:47

everyday life. We talk to

1:50

eyes, operators, mall

1:52

hunters, the factors, analysts

1:54

and authors to explore the stories

1:56

and see traits, tradecraft and

1:58

technology of the secret world.

2:02

We are spy

2:04

cast.

2:05

Now let's step back. Relax,

2:08

and enjoy the shore.

2:15

That speaks episode features one of the

2:17

most renowned CIA operations

2:19

officers of his generation, Enrique

2:23

Ric credo. To say he said

2:25

quite the journey would be quite the

2:27

understatement. He was born

2:29

in Cuba, fled the cast of revolution

2:32

as a young boy, ended up

2:34

in an orphanage in Colorado. Later,

2:37

he joined the elite United States Air Force,

2:40

Pararesca unit, He was

2:42

a paramilitary officer, loving

2:44

among counter revolutionaries in the nineteen

2:46

eighties. He went to the farm to

2:48

become a case officer, and had

2:50

sex overseas post in his twenty four

2:52

year career. He describes his

2:54

only bad harbor as laking

2:56

fast things on wheels. In

2:59

next week's episode, we talk about his

3:01

time as CIA Council Terrish,

3:04

Chief Operations, which included

3:06

September eleven two thousand and one.

3:09

His career battling communist and sergeants,

3:12

and Islamic terrorists, and multiple continents,

3:15

has experienced loving among the contras,

3:18

during the Nekaragin Revolution and

3:20

his time as deputy chief of station and

3:22

co founding member of the Bin Laden

3:25

task force. Enjoy.

3:30

Thanks for coming on the show.

3:32

Well, this is why my pleasure. As you could

3:34

imagine, for a intel officer

3:37

to do his first podcast in

3:39

something like this, you know, spy museum,

3:42

spy cast,

3:43

That's a that's a heck of an honor for me. So thank

3:45

you for having me. Oh, thank you.

3:47

Well, there's so much of your story that I wanted

3:49

to again turn. I really enjoyed reading your

3:51

book. That's me read it twice. Now, I

3:54

love the fact that you were really into

3:56

the movie, Tombstone, when

3:58

you were in Shangri la.

4:00

You mentioned that and the and the book

4:03

and I I was thinking, like, my

4:05

favorite quote I can remember as

4:07

the one word, wire

4:09

slaps. The guy and then said, Are

4:11

you going to do something boy or just

4:13

stand there and play it?

4:17

That is a fabulous movie. And

4:19

for me, Dale Kilmer stole

4:21

the show because he did such an incredible

4:23

job as documentary. So my

4:26

my favorite line is that the old age

4:28

Johnny Ringo, you look like somebody stepped

4:30

on your grave.

4:32

Okay. Well, let's tag into your

4:35

remarkable career. You

4:37

mentioned in the book that

4:39

when you were unwindly at

4:41

headquarters, you never

4:43

walked over the seal because

4:46

you had such reverends for

4:48

it. And I think that that's a good place

4:50

to start. Take us back

4:52

in time to the day that you first

4:55

walked through those doors and saw that

4:57

seal and saw the memorial wall

4:59

and what it felt like for you to

5:01

be joining the Storied Central Intelligence

5:03

Agency.

5:05

You can imagine being a immigrant

5:07

in this country. I've always felt that

5:10

I had a huge debt of honor to

5:12

to pay back for everything that it did for me.

5:15

It was surreal for me. I mean, even though

5:17

I had interviewed, I had taken the polygraph,

5:19

I had done all those things, like, first

5:22

time I walked through that door

5:24

to get my badge and to go in,

5:26

I was literally floating across

5:28

the the floor. I I never

5:30

stepped on that seal, not because it's

5:32

any sacrilege, but it it was just

5:35

it meant so much to me. That I

5:37

would always go around it. I just I just

5:39

could could couldn't quite do it. Paul

5:42

Donovan was one of my heroes growing

5:44

up Teddy Roosevelt, Wyatt Earp, and

5:46

and him I've I've read a lot of

5:48

their books and that was a

5:50

big influence for me, the the whole OSS

5:53

portion being military and that.

5:55

It was just one of those

5:58

highlights of my life walking through there,

6:00

knowing that I was gonna be part of something

6:03

that I was joining something very special.

6:05

I had no idea that I was gonna have such

6:07

a great ride. Talk us

6:09

through the initial period

6:12

because you start off as a paramilitary

6:14

officer Ray. And then after

6:16

a period of time, you go to the farm and you

6:18

become a a case officer. So

6:21

I found that part of your journey

6:23

really interesting because you were

6:25

in the book, you discussed how for

6:28

paramilitary officer to

6:30

a certain extent, you're like a blunt instrument.

6:33

You've got to be a hard charger and you've got to

6:35

just go out the problem head on. But

6:37

as a case officer, there's layers

6:40

of neurons and finesse and it and it's

6:42

it's interesting to me that that

6:44

transition that you had to

6:46

make. So Wocastrilo's first few

6:48

years as a paramilitary officer?

6:50

I was a pay air force pari rescue. I

6:53

went in pari rescue in seventy one And

6:55

in seventy four when I couldn't

6:57

get to Vietnam because there were that's what I wanted

7:00

to do. I wrote the agency, and

7:02

they send me back a very nice note saying,

7:05

Thank you, but we're firing, not hiring.

7:07

Those were very bad years for the agency. Subsequently,

7:10

around nineteen, late seventy nine,

7:12

early eighty, I cut the bug

7:14

again, and I wrote again. And at

7:17

the time, I was writing with

7:19

Miami Debt Metro Fire Department

7:21

as a paramedic. Because Para

7:23

Rescue, of course, are all the MT2s. He

7:25

called me back. The agency called me back and

7:27

said, look, we don't we're not hiring staff

7:29

right now, but We

7:31

do have some contract work that you can

7:33

do as a paramilitary medic

7:37

when we're doing some training or maybe even missions

7:39

and I'm going like, put me in coach.

7:42

That experience exposed

7:44

me to what special activities division,

7:46

Groundbranch, was called back

7:48

then. Which is one

7:51

of the three branches in

7:54

the paramilitary side of the agency. And

7:57

when the contra

7:59

program, when the Senvista revolution

8:02

started getting fought against, you know, when

8:04

we wrote on Reagan came in, one

8:06

of the first things he did was his, I want

8:09

a COVID action program on this. Well,

8:11

suddenly, I get a phone call in in Miami

8:13

that from the agencies,

8:16

hey, listen, we have something for you. And

8:18

at the time, I was tired of the, you know, the thirty

8:21

day here and and and no hope of getting

8:23

higher. So I asked one question. I said, Just

8:25

one question. I don't know, I don't

8:27

care where I'm going or whatever. Is this

8:29

long term or is this contract? And

8:32

when they said long term, That

8:34

was it. I said I would do it. So I

8:36

I it was really backordering it into the

8:38

agency through that. And and the reason

8:40

was they called me was because they had to time, the

8:42

agency will capabilities were

8:44

anorexic. I mean, there'd been so many firings

8:47

and and stuff like that after Vietnam. And

8:50

they did not feel they had a

8:52

native Spanish speaking paramilitary

8:55

officer that could pull off

8:57

not being an American. So

9:00

that that's why I cut my teeth was

9:02

for a little over three years. I

9:04

slept in a jumbo hammock Monday through Friday

9:06

going to the different camps. And

9:09

it was arguably the best

9:11

job I ever had for for my

9:13

right of reasons, but primarily It

9:16

was personal. It was very personal to me

9:18

that that mission. That was a that

9:21

was a start. I did three and a half

9:23

years there and had some great operations

9:25

and couple of good scares and

9:29

hit the telephone, I guess. I

9:32

mean, I think that that

9:34

initial period. One of the things

9:36

that I think quite interesting

9:38

and we can we can broaden this

9:41

out a bit. But what you said there that it's personal.

9:44

So I found it quite interesting that

9:46

you came to America as a result

9:49

of a Marxist insurgency

9:52

and guerrilla movement. And then

9:54

you found yourself in Central America

9:58

and the eighties and and for you this was

10:00

personal. There was a a personal

10:02

connection to it and not just because of

10:04

language, but because of your experience

10:07

as a as young boy? You

10:09

know, absolutely, Andrew. I I

10:12

honestly believe that each one of us

10:14

is given a god path, god given path.

10:17

And if you have the courage to step

10:19

into it, it is your path.

10:22

You will endure and you will succeed. I

10:25

think that from very early age, because

10:28

of what I saw of the revolution, the

10:30

atrocities, the prosecutions, what

10:32

they did to my family. I

10:34

had a very strong conviction

10:37

about fighting communism. Spycast

10:40

forward to, you know, a couple

10:42

of years later, now III

10:44

was able to come to the United States without

10:47

my parents. Came out through a program

10:49

called Peter Pan. The Peter Pan

10:51

program was bringing in kids that his parents

10:53

could not get out So lucky

10:56

me, I ended up in a orphanage in

10:58

Pueblo, Colorado quite a

11:00

quite a adventure. But by the

11:02

time I got to Nicaragua, It

11:05

was not only

11:07

my background and my experience, it

11:09

was the people I was dealing with. Every

11:12

night, I would grab a cup of coffee,

11:15

and I would go sit with a different group

11:17

of of freedom fighters. None

11:20

of them had red Darknet, Not everyone

11:22

had read let in, but each

11:24

one had a personal story.

11:27

They raped my daughter. They

11:29

beat up my priest and closed my church.

11:33

They forced legally conscripted my

11:35

fifteen year old son. And

11:37

the litany goes on. There wasn't

11:39

a single person that said to me, well,

11:42

you know, we have to fight the tentacles

11:44

of this octopus that this communist There

11:47

are really simple people fighting

11:49

for a real simple thing, which is

11:51

freedom. And and I wanna highlight

11:53

that one of the the biggest influences on

11:56

me was my father because imagine

11:58

taking your only child and

12:00

putting them on an airplane to a country that

12:02

you've never been You do

12:04

not speak the language, and you may never

12:06

see him again. Not for

12:08

economic reasons on the pipe, the

12:10

contrary. But for freedom. He

12:12

did not want his son to

12:14

grow under that kind of

12:16

regime. I mean, on the Paris, I'm

12:18

not there as well. That's really interesting

12:21

to me during your career. You

12:24

could almost map onto

12:27

the war against communism and

12:29

then the war against terrorism. So

12:32

you're fighting against this ideology,

12:34

but it's quite interesting to me because even

12:37

in your own family and the

12:39

book you outlined how your godmother's

12:42

husband was a Marxist he

12:44

tapped your family off that you were going

12:46

to wreck Prada CIA

12:49

legend was going to be sent off.

12:51

To the Soviet Union to become a

12:54

a promising prospect for the other

12:56

side. So even within

12:58

your family and then your cousin as well, he

13:00

comes he comes and lets your family

13:03

know that the gorillas are going to be coming

13:05

through your village and and

13:06

stuff. So there's there's this kind of interesting dynamic

13:09

going on? I think that that was

13:11

the theme with just about everybody in Cuba.

13:13

I mean, we all had -- we

13:15

hope that family is

13:18

family blood is a little thicker than than anything

13:20

else, an ideology. In the

13:22

case of my my uncle, I'm

13:25

married to my mother-in-law, I mean, my

13:27

godmother. He was in a march

13:29

his hard core, but he was a economist.

13:31

That was that was his ideology. And

13:34

but he understood I mean, I lived in their house

13:36

for almost two years because I

13:38

used to go to school away from my

13:40

town. I lived in a very small town. And

13:42

the school that I attended there, he was

13:45

one of the professors there. So it was private

13:47

school, So I lived with them for two

13:49

years. So I was like his youngest son. And

13:52

that's the reason I think that he came over.

13:54

My the cousin's story was my my

13:56

dad's cousin and he

13:58

was one of the rebel leaders in

14:02

in the Eskom Braai mountains, which is where Chegilada

14:04

actually dominated and

14:07

he came to the house one night, middle

14:09

of the night, and told my

14:11

father, so look, you know, you're we're

14:13

gonna take the cow. But

14:16

neither you nor your wife can leave because

14:19

it was my first lesson in counter intelligence.

14:22

You said, if you if they see

14:24

you and your wife leave with your kid, they

14:26

don't know something is up because they know

14:28

you and I are related. And

14:31

so that started that started the first

14:33

adventure, which is which is leaving that town

14:35

under the conditions and coming

14:37

back. It it was it was quite

14:39

quite a growth period for a eight year

14:41

old. All of these places where

14:44

you found yourself, especially in

14:46

in Central America and South America, it's

14:48

like there's these authoritarian

14:52

regimes or dictatorships and then

14:54

there's a or a communist insurgency

14:57

And then there's a counter movement.

15:00

So even the term contrast can comes

15:02

from counterrevolution. Right?

15:04

And And then Cuba as well, the Eskom

15:07

Bay mountains, there's also a a resistance

15:09

movement against Castro and

15:11

and that regime there. It's Yeah.

15:14

Yeah. It's quite interesting to me how you're

15:16

located within these big

15:18

historical forces that you found yourself

15:20

a part of.

15:22

I believe that that was just my that

15:24

was my path. That was my

15:26

destiny. And you know, you can't

15:28

use the sword unless you forged it

15:30

first. And have the right steel. And

15:32

I think looking back now, all

15:35

these lessons, I would

15:37

tell you, getting on an

15:39

airplane by yourself when you're

15:41

ten years old, going

15:43

to an orphanage in Pueblo, Colorado,

15:46

which is pretty rough town. I think it was a pretty

15:48

rough fork package. That was quite

15:50

a test of of my

15:54

survivability, you know. But, you know,

15:56

was again blessed with a with a dad that

15:58

always brought me up as the little man, your

16:00

responsibilities, I wish I

16:02

was a stoic as he is, was And

16:05

again, just the same thing with running

16:08

the North Korean programs. You know, it

16:11

was all I could gravitating

16:13

back to these things. And in

16:15

many cases, they were often.

16:17

So let's go back to your early

16:19

years and working for

16:22

the agency. So you're and Nekarakea,

16:24

one of the parts of the story that I found quite

16:27

interesting was there is one

16:29

par in the book where you

16:31

realize that you're being set

16:34

up by a small group of

16:36

of contrast to be whacked,

16:40

but you you manage to set

16:42

yourself up in a situation that that that

16:44

obviously doesn't happen. So just

16:47

tell us a little bit more about that? I mean,

16:49

I understand as well that you're the only agency

16:52

officer whose end accounts for fourteen

16:54

months. I mean, you're So tell us

16:57

about that experience? It

16:59

was, again, I

17:01

never woke up one morning, Andrew,

17:03

and said, I gotta go to work.

17:05

Never. Not in my whole career. It

17:08

was always, I gotta go to work. I really

17:11

found a purpose there. That

17:13

incident that you're that you're speaking is

17:15

there was a an incident of the camp where

17:17

the commander had been compromised

17:20

and two of his sub guys

17:23

became broke. They were stealing

17:25

cattle and all this other kind of stuff. And

17:27

I was sent there to bring him back in

17:29

pretty long process. As you as you read, there's

17:32

there's two guys that I was able to bring back

17:34

life, but bring them back under

17:36

under some kind of duress. When

17:39

I got there and grabbed the first guy

17:41

and send them back with

17:43

one of the local captains, I

17:46

stayed in the camp. And it

17:48

was I was not a I was not a case officer

17:51

yet. I had never recruited anybody, but

17:55

several months before, this young, very

17:58

young guy comes to me from one of the camps

18:00

and says, my wife is ill.

18:02

I need some medicine. Can you

18:04

help me out? My reach into my pocket, gave

18:06

him about twenty dollars worth of limpetas. And

18:10

he went off and got the medicine for his wife.

18:12

Well, fast forward 345

18:14

months, whatever it is. I'm walking

18:16

with another nigga that was in

18:18

the helicopter with me. And literally, it's

18:20

it's almost comical because he was behind the

18:22

bushes. And you hear this,

18:25

me my order. Major, major. And

18:28

so I so what's up? He goes, they're

18:30

gonna kill you tonight. They're planning to kill

18:32

you tonight. So what are you talking about? He goes, yeah. You

18:34

know, they know that you're here to get

18:37

Crillo and Carcaramelo and and they're

18:39

gonna kill you. Normally, when

18:41

we stayed in the camps, we stayed in the middle because

18:43

that's how we were more protected. Well, this

18:45

time, they say, oh, this is where you're gonna be staying

18:47

and who's at the outskirts of the town of the

18:49

thing. And I said, okay.

18:52

So as soon as

18:54

they got dark, as soon as they got dark,

18:56

we crawled out the windows. Walked

18:58

up. There was a substantial hill in

19:00

front of it. And there's

19:02

no way I was gonna try to get back to

19:05

civilization. I mean, you know, you're talking three

19:07

weeks worth of walking. But

19:09

I said, well, you know, at least here we have fighting

19:11

chance. We set up a perimeter, we

19:13

took out a time and sure as hell

19:15

around and eleven o'clock at night

19:18

when there was pitch black. They were

19:20

there with flashlights and you could see, you could hear

19:22

them, you know, you could hear them arguing, wherever

19:24

they had all this kind of stuff. Of course,

19:26

they finally got off. They did not

19:29

chase us. I had

19:31

been training most of these guys myself,

19:33

so they knew that they would be in a

19:35

fight if they if they came after me and

19:37

my guys. Walk back into the camp

19:39

next morning just like nothing had happened.

19:42

And it was funny because some of the people

19:44

were like, he's still here. And the other

19:46

ones were smoking. He's still here. And,

19:49

anyway, actually, I had the second guy that that second

19:51

day. I

19:52

just want to discuss the contrast. You

19:55

you called them my beloved contrast.

19:57

It seems to me that what you're saying in the book

20:00

and that example of the the

20:02

two deputies to

20:05

suicide, as an example,

20:07

as the the contrary were a

20:09

a group that were made up of

20:12

many different types of people that had

20:14

many different grievances and that

20:16

we're fighting a sun than Easter for many different

20:18

reasons. And if you have

20:20

enough people like that, you're going to

20:22

get people that are doing stuff

20:24

that's not acceptable.

20:27

That seems to me what you're saying,

20:30

you're you're not saying that every one

20:32

of them is an angel, but you're not saying that every

20:34

one of them is like a a

20:35

killer. You're saying that they were all organically

20:38

and thus fate for something

20:40

that was personal that related to their

20:42

life and the fact

20:44

that they all got hinted

20:48

in the same way for a small percentage

20:50

of people is unfair to

20:52

the memory of what they were fighting

20:54

for. Tell me if I've got any of that wrong.

20:57

You're you're a hundred percent right. The Southeastern

21:01

revolution started

21:04

with some of the former Somosa military

21:07

guys. They're the the person had to leave

21:10

because, you know, they were they were being killed.

21:13

Same thing that happened in Cuba. You know, the executions

21:16

were theirs. There was no

21:18

trials. These guys were being similarly

21:20

executed. So you had

21:23

the the original where people that

21:25

were lieutenants and captains that even some

21:27

like in particular who was who was later assassinated

21:29

by the Stalinistas They were

21:32

former Sommossa officers.

21:35

But to say that the organization was Sommossa

21:38

as many people through that that that

21:41

that that name out is ridiculous. You're

21:43

talking eighty percent at

21:45

least of of the the

21:47

forces and and and even

21:49

more so the fighting They were

21:51

all peasants. They were all simple,

21:54

you know, they could have ones

21:56

fighting for the causes that that I mentioned before.

22:00

There's I had a special love with

22:02

the Miskido Indians. It didn't

22:04

dawn on me at first. But, you

22:06

know, for me to be in Honduras and then Nicaragua,

22:09

that wasn't a culture shock for me because

22:11

I am Hispanic and and I know the culture

22:14

with with these new answers, but nonetheless, gone

22:16

to the Musketia, where they don't even speak

22:18

Spanish. And there's

22:21

three tribes there. You got the Musketosumo

22:23

and Rama. And that's led by

22:25

a guiding statement. In fact, I just talked to

22:27

him a couple of days ago. We

22:29

remain friends. I love those

22:32

guys because there was

22:34

even more purity because there wasn't a

22:36

single soloist or former soloist

22:38

around. And I I wanna

22:41

highlight that these two guys that weren't rogue

22:43

That was the exception, not the rule, and

22:45

that was an anomaly. And the

22:47

the side of the coin that I want to focus

22:50

on is the fact that we did something about

22:51

it. We did

22:53

not let it go as soon as we found

22:55

out that this was going on. We

22:57

took corrective actions. So when I say we were

22:59

talking about the

23:01

FDN, the Honduras, and,

23:03

of course, the Americans behind it.

23:06

That experience with the mosquito

23:08

end ends is a really interesting

23:10

one

23:12

almost seems to me like they don't need to go

23:14

through the training. They're like born special

23:16

forces. They just come off the shelf

23:18

like they really are because

23:20

they're they're people that live off the land. They're all

23:23

incredible hunters. They're

23:25

all incredible trackers. Some

23:27

of them are incredible divers. You read that

23:29

that I used some of their divers to do some

23:31

serious damage to the sending distance. I'm

23:34

very proud of that one too. These people

23:36

were instinctively very

23:38

adept at patrolling and and

23:41

and they had a lot of support. In

23:43

in the area too. And it was very difficult

23:45

area. One of the reasons to send an instance

23:47

is always try to move into the mosquito,

23:50

the native soil area is because

23:53

there's some gold mines out there that are very lucrative.

23:56

So that's always been part of

23:58

the the emphasis of them controlling

24:00

that area and they couldn't do that with

24:02

with, you know, the thousands of guys

24:04

we were training and arming and sending in.

24:07

So I I had my good experiences with

24:09

them and I and I had one bad experience.

24:11

I I think you read when there

24:13

was a a rift in in

24:16

the and several

24:18

commanders, think it like, eight of them came out.

24:21

They were gonna step in Faggoth

24:23

on trial because they were convinced that

24:25

they were that he was stealing

24:27

from them because we had had

24:30

to stop some of the refueling or or

24:32

the resupplied because

24:34

of political rame things that were going up

24:36

and down. And I

24:39

flew into Portugal and Peter, I'm

24:41

sorry, into Russe, Russe was the camp. Directly

24:44

on a helicopter when I found out this was going

24:47

on. And Deb and

24:49

Faggoth came in shortly thereafter, And

24:52

he says, what are you doing here? And I told

24:54

him. And then he looks at me, he goes, what

24:56

are you doing here? Knowing that, I go, I'm not

24:58

gonna leave you here. So that night,

25:00

I had a I called the meeting with with the commanders,

25:02

and they all come out. And it was something out

25:04

of the good Nevada and the ugly. All these guys had

25:06

the bandeliers with a stuff and, you know,

25:09

and they were not they were not happy. I

25:11

was there by myself. I had a browning nine millimeter.

25:13

What do you do with a browning nine millimeter against

25:15

six hundred guys? Right? But

25:17

I had credibility with them. Because

25:20

I ate their food. I

25:23

slept in their, you know, hammocks. I

25:25

was the guy coordinating the resupplies for

25:27

them. I had credibility with

25:30

them. And so I was able to parlay

25:32

that into a treaty that

25:34

that said, look, if you wanna get rid of Steadman

25:36

democratically okay.

25:39

But if you harm more hair on his head,

25:41

we're gonna get you. Hey, I mean, we got

25:44

shot at several times because these are all

25:46

over there. But that one

25:48

was one of those that, you know, one thing

25:50

is combat, where your blood gets

25:52

up and your your adrenaline kicks

25:54

in. But when you walk it into something like

25:56

this and you have to keep your cool and and

25:58

and you know that the consequences are gonna

26:00

be

26:01

severe if you screw it up, it was quite

26:03

a challenge. Is that something

26:05

that you were born with or is that something that

26:08

you learn to do when you were

26:10

and the Air Force said in the PJ

26:12

to what extent as a born and

26:14

to what extent as a created.

26:16

Well, I

26:17

think I get everything that we have, you have

26:20

your DNA wiring and you got your culturation.

26:23

Like I said, my father brought me up to be

26:26

a young man. I learned to shoot when I was a little

26:28

kid. I would, you know, help him

26:30

drive the cars. I would sit on his lap and drive

26:32

the cars. I had a horse before I had a bicycle.

26:35

Because it was a small town. And so

26:37

all that those experiences yeah.

26:40

The wiring was there and the mentoring

26:42

from my dad were there, But then

26:44

the trip to the orphanage and then definitely

26:46

when I got into Para Rescue is as

26:48

being one of our special operations forces. The

26:51

the training news very, very

26:53

intense. The washout rain is

26:55

no less than no more than seals or green

26:57

beretes. And

27:00

making it through that, making

27:03

it through seer school, making it

27:05

through mountain climbing school, there's

27:07

a certain level of conquering your

27:09

emotions that you have to do in order

27:11

to do all that. But I think that the

27:13

most the most important thing was that I believed in

27:15

what I was doing. I honestly never

27:18

doubted

27:19

that I was wearing the white cowboy hat.

27:21

One of the other things that

27:23

I wanted to ask before we move on

27:25

to your transition to become a case officer

27:28

was You speak

27:30

about having the mosquito

27:32

end in camps that they weren't penetrated

27:35

by the San Danistas because there were such

27:38

Thai, Can Group, and Community.

27:40

But some of the other ones were

27:44

penetrated. And one of the questions that

27:46

I had was did you have to be

27:49

cognizant of

27:51

foreign intelligence officers being

27:54

around this game as well? Like, was that

27:56

ever something that was on

27:58

your radar like Soviet

28:00

or Eastern Europeans or

28:03

We knew that the the Cubans primarily

28:06

were the surrogates for

28:09

for for Soviet Union at the time.

28:11

And we knew that they were cochinets entities

28:14

and they were in many cases leading them,

28:16

some of their pilots and stuff like that. And

28:18

in any uncertainty, I'll be just go back

28:20

to the OSS days. How many

28:23

elements of the resistance were

28:26

compromised because they turned

28:28

somebody or they recruit somebody

28:30

or they forced somebody into that You're

28:33

talking people that it's hard to imagine

28:37

immorality that you don't understand. If

28:39

if somebody comes up and puts a gun to your

28:41

daughter's head and says, you know, you're gonna

28:44

help us with this like they do in these in these

28:46

places, what choice do they really

28:48

have? So it

28:51

was overall like I think believing

28:54

in what I did was

28:56

probably the single most important

28:58

thing because that that that cleared my conscience

29:00

and that's healed by spine.

29:02

Let's talk about your transition become

29:04

an ops officer. Some of the other people that

29:07

you were going through with were strep

29:09

of college and you say that trying

29:11

to get good recruits

29:13

that way is almost like trying to choose

29:16

Tom Brady amongst the NFL Draft

29:18

or

29:18

something. So help us understand that

29:20

transition from Parimal trades a case?

29:23

I had no training from the

29:25

agency going into the

29:27

Nicaragua program. No. I got

29:29

some briefings. From analysts about

29:31

what to expect and this other than the other, but there

29:33

was no training whatsoever. So

29:36

the transition to the point

29:38

is I had no idea what the agency really

29:40

did. And and you hit on something

29:42

that a lot of people do not understand. In

29:46

my business, in our business, unless

29:50

you're there to do

29:52

a rendition or something, the minute

29:54

you grab your gun, your

29:57

mission's over. Our

29:59

missions, even if the mission it

30:01

was accomplished, you budd that

30:03

terrorist a safe house. But

30:05

then you get into a firefight, Your

30:08

mission is compromised. Your government

30:10

is embarrassed and your PNG from

30:12

a third country. So that

30:15

that is for us tradecraft

30:17

and awareness

30:21

are are our tools. You know, awareness

30:24

beats draw every single time.

30:27

Because the main job is to be,

30:29

you know, to detect something and be able to avoid

30:31

it. So that that that

30:34

settlemente of the program was

30:36

something that fascinated me. And course, I

30:38

had read a lot. I've always I was a reader

30:40

since middle school. I

30:42

had one teacher that really infected me

30:45

with reading. So I was always

30:47

reading about the furnaces and about the

30:49

OSS and that kind of stuff. So I understood

30:51

that there was both sides of

30:53

the coin that there was a very physical aggressive

30:56

part And I think that's

30:58

why I was so well suited for it because I

31:00

really felt at home at both both camps.

31:09

And the book, you outlined your

31:12

respect and reverence

31:15

for Belle Kissei. You say he's the

31:18

the best leader of intelligence since

31:20

well, Belle Donovan. I think case is

31:22

such an interesting figure for a

31:24

whole variety of reasons, but tell

31:26

me why you hold them in such high regard

31:29

as it has leadership style

31:31

or is it his actions or

31:33

is it something else?

31:35

You know, it's it's one of the

31:37

highlights of my but I stayed

31:39

on there. What's the I mean, you gotta understand

31:41

that was a GS ten. And

31:43

here I am, I get called in from the camps

31:46

no reason giving that that, you know,

31:48

my my colonel said we need you

31:50

to come in, Alex. And

31:53

I show up with our our our

31:55

command post. And there

31:58

is this guy in pressed

32:00

vest with really nice clothing

32:03

on and Rolex. Big cigar

32:05

in his hand. It said and was introduced

32:07

to Dewey Claridge, who was

32:09

a legendary and man, one of

32:11

the wonderful friend. He was a mentor

32:13

of buying from that day on. And

32:15

I will tell you, I I still did goosebumps

32:18

because, you know, all of a sudden,

32:20

he introduces me to Bill Casey, and he

32:22

says, mister director, this

32:24

is your man in the camps. And

32:28

you talk about a badge of honor. I

32:32

was you know, in that in that case, he

32:34

says to me, he says, son,

32:36

you know those photographs that you take in all the

32:38

camps and you send in? Because I

32:40

keep those on my desk. And anytime

32:43

somebody tries to push back against this program,

32:46

I use those photos to beat them over the

32:48

over the forehead. Keep them coming.

32:51

So, I mean, was walking on

32:53

air. I had the pleasure, although

32:56

it was difficult, because I

32:58

had the the best Spanish of

33:00

of the guys there when we had

33:03

a couple of our beatings

33:06

with the senior Honduras and some of

33:08

the argentines that were there at the time early

33:10

on, I was his interpreter. And

33:13

as you probably have heard, he was always

33:15

a mumbler. And

33:17

so I'm I'm sitting there where where at

33:19

this one training camp, not one of the operational

33:22

camps, one of the training camps outside of

33:24

Tigency Galp. And my

33:27

food, of course, was getting cold, pet flies

33:29

on it. I could eat. I was I was paying

33:31

attention. And all of

33:33

a sudden, he kinda like does one of

33:35

these, closes his eyes, and

33:37

I go, oh, boy, this is gonna be something.

33:40

And there was this Argentine that was

33:43

kind of noticing what was going on, so he started

33:45

pressing. And Bill Casey just

33:47

all of a sudden looked up and gave him the most

33:50

precise, articulate answer.

33:53

And the guy went like, oops, think

33:56

the other thing that fascinated about him was

33:58

that he was an old assessor. He

34:00

was I mean, he wasn't a guy that

34:02

parachuted into into

34:04

France. But he conceptualized a

34:06

lot of great operations and and

34:09

he did a lot of great stuff. And

34:11

again, there's a common theme

34:13

here. Their believers. Casey

34:16

was a believer. Dewey Claridge

34:19

was a believer. A

34:21

current array was a believer,

34:23

Vietnam vet, the whole nine yards. I could

34:26

tell you truth, this is reason I wrote them.

34:29

Because My agency

34:31

is the most maligned, misunderstood

34:34

agency in the whole federal system. We're

34:36

always being painted as being immoral corrupt

34:39

you know, maniacal

34:42

assassins, you know, what

34:44

is an American maid and and

34:46

Jason Born and all these movies

34:48

that are out there. There is

34:51

very few movies

34:54

or books that portray the agency

34:57

in a realistic light. We

34:59

don't do the James Bond stuff. Yes, we

35:02

get sometimes you get into trouble and you gotta

35:04

you fight your way out. But it

35:08

is a completely different thing than what

35:10

people expect from us. And people don't

35:12

realize that our

35:14

successes cannot

35:16

be recounted. I mean, the liquor

35:19

hour stuff I can talk about right now because that was

35:21

nineteen eighty. How many years

35:23

have gone through that? That I

35:25

am now being allowed to talk about some of these

35:27

things. I really

35:29

wanted to be the voice of

35:31

my colleagues as much as possible because,

35:33

you know, you mentioned when I first walked

35:36

into that hall. When I

35:38

saw those stars on the wall, That's

35:40

a chilling effect because you know the agency is not

35:42

big in numbers when it comes to operational officers.

35:45

And you know, sadly now Andrew, there's a

35:47

hundred and thirty seven stars on

35:50

that wall and a third of them

35:53

are post nine eleven. I

35:55

would say that the successful

35:58

operators in the agency

36:00

are they're not looking for a job.

36:03

They're looking for a purpose. Just

36:05

when you're talking about KFC there,

36:07

I'm sure you have heard this one, but

36:10

the joke was that it

36:12

doesn't need a telephone scrumpler for

36:14

us because

36:15

stories understand it.

36:17

I'm sure some people say the same thing about

36:19

me. I

36:19

could understand it clearly. So we're good.

36:23

Okay. So let's let's work forward

36:26

then. So you're and you have

36:28

made the transition over to a case officer.

36:31

So we've got this period

36:34

when you make the transition from,

36:37

you know, and you go back and forward, but

36:40

you make a transition from fighting

36:42

communists to fighting terrorists. And

36:45

it's quite interesting because that in

36:47

the book you outlined that one of the

36:49

jobs that you went for you later

36:51

found out that you were the only person that applied

36:53

because at the time the

36:55

agent counter terrorism was

36:57

the was the bastard child of

36:59

the of the CIA tell us a lot

37:02

about more about that transition over

37:04

to counterterrorism?

37:06

Again, it was one of my bosses that came to

37:08

me and say, this is a perfect job for

37:10

you. You We need to have more face

37:12

officers that have paramilitary credentials.

37:15

We need to get our guys to be recognized

37:18

and they are. They definitely are especially

37:20

now. So I I put in for

37:22

this job and and I waited

37:24

like three weeks and, you know, I'm sweating it.

37:26

And finally, the guy that, you know,

37:29

our premise officers is a personnel officer

37:31

who calls me in. He was kind of a jerk anyway.

37:33

He calls me in and he says, okay. Yeah.

37:36

Yeah. You got the job, and I will I did, like,

37:38

a high five or whatever. And he says,

37:40

are you so excited about? You were the only

37:42

guy who replied for the job. And

37:46

I'm not saying that, I mean, that that

37:48

place as you as you read was very dangerous

37:51

at the time, but that was probably the easiest time

37:54

in that country's history up to date.

37:57

As far as, you know, the uncertainties and

37:59

the terrorism and the murders and

38:01

the sabotages that were being done. So

38:04

people it is it discounted a lot of

38:06

people. A lot of people with families did

38:08

not want to go there. The

38:10

other one was the language. You

38:13

know, my agency moves

38:16

with this language. You know, that is that

38:18

is our key trade.

38:20

If we don't if you cannot communicate, you cannot

38:22

recruit. Or you can add development, you

38:25

cannot recruit. Quite a pleasant

38:27

surprise. And I never told my wife that

38:29

the guy told me this was But I was the only

38:31

guy who had applied. I

38:32

know better than that. So

38:34

Help us understand that transition for

38:38

your personally, but also for

38:40

the agency that you loved

38:42

thus move over to cancerism

38:45

because you play such an interesting role

38:47

because your mentor, Julie

38:50

Claridge, he becomes the first head

38:53

of the counterterrorism center, and

38:55

then you later on become

38:57

the the chief of operations. Help

39:00

us understand that gradual transition

39:02

through the nineties over to the

39:04

early two thousands where the agency

39:06

and you both start pivoting

39:09

towards counter terrorism?

39:11

You know, counterterrorism was

39:13

probably one of the biggest game changers for

39:15

the agency because most

39:18

of our work was done in the diplomatic

39:21

or the business circuit, recruiting

39:24

foreign agents with

39:27

access to intelligence but

39:29

in very socially acceptable

39:33

areas and over dinners and,

39:35

well, you cannot get terrorists on

39:38

what information or counter narcotics information

39:40

from somebody in the DIP circuit. So

39:43

it was a new set of skills

39:46

which it really helped a lot

39:48

of the paramilitary officers because now

39:50

you had individuals that

39:52

had a little different grit and

39:54

I think that was an advantage. But that

39:57

was such a big deal and

40:00

I've heard the charges that you

40:02

know, we as a as an intelligence community

40:04

took our eyes off the the communist

40:06

ball and and thus

40:09

in only focused on on on

40:11

terrorism. And I

40:14

disagree because I know that we were still

40:16

working against the Soviets

40:18

and against the Chinese and against the North

40:20

Koreans. However, I

40:23

I will say that it was a

40:26

triage of resources. Know,

40:29

terrorism is the equivalent of getting

40:31

shot where communism

40:34

is the equivalent of cancer. So

40:37

if to fight either one, at least with

40:39

the cancer, you have some medical

40:41

and you have some pass that you may

40:43

be able to take, and most importantly, you've got little

40:46

bit of time. In

40:48

terrorism, if you miss

40:50

accuse, and you lose the timing,

40:53

people die. So

40:55

that we had to do a triage kind of

40:57

concept of What is most important

41:00

with the finite resources

41:02

that we all had? How much

41:05

was your where you have focused

41:07

on whatever was in front of you,

41:09

the task at hand, and how much were you

41:12

thinking about what was over the horizon? I

41:14

know that help us understand how

41:16

much someone like you who's rising

41:18

through the ranks who's doing this transition

41:21

how much are you focused on? What's

41:23

in front of you? And how much space or

41:25

time do you have to take a step

41:28

back and and and look at bigger picture?

41:31

I

41:31

think it's an excellent question. I think

41:33

it's a combination. You know, in the

41:36

agency, you don't get anywhere if you're

41:38

just a blunt instrument. It's

41:40

a career of sophisticated complications.

41:43

You have to understand that intelligence

41:47

operations, you know, you're talking exhaustive

41:49

collection, exhaustive

41:52

internal analysis You're talking

41:54

meticulous planning, and then you're

41:56

talking expert execution. Those

41:58

are things that are very hard to achieve if

42:00

you're a one trick pony. We

42:03

always kept in the big picture as

42:05

part of our education and as part of our training

42:07

at the farm is understanding that

42:09

you have to know the global dynamics

42:13

in how that affects your account. That

42:15

said, as you so properly said, when you're

42:18

there, federal vision. You

42:20

are focusing on your

42:22

stuff. And in in

42:24

that one Latin American country, I

42:26

remember the first thing I used to do every single

42:28

morning. I used to get in the office before so

42:31

and grab a cup of coffee, and

42:33

I would take the left wing

42:35

newspaper. The right wing newspaper

42:38

in the middle of the road newspaper, and

42:40

I wouldn't even turn on my my my

42:43

communications until I had read

42:45

through those because I needed to know in

42:48

whatever microcosm was, what

42:50

what was going on? So

42:52

I think that it's again is

42:56

the characteristics of an

42:58

agency officer or of an Intel officer

43:01

is more of a jack of all trades

43:04

than an expert. I think that our

43:06

analysts, for example, are the

43:08

most incredible. I mean, I love our analysts.

43:11

We couldn't do our work with Adam. They

43:13

have the the luxury of

43:16

coming in and picking a topic and

43:19

they can carry that topics for the whole career.

43:22

And I I know guy with EOD together

43:24

and enter on duty together, and

43:27

he literally went from GS

43:30

ten or eleven to an SIS or

43:32

doing the same kind of work

43:35

just more and more sophisticated and

43:37

more and more knowledgeable, where we have

43:39

to put a different countries, learn

43:41

different languages, learn different

43:43

customs. For for

43:45

me, the transition of terrorism was

43:47

having said because I

43:50

I still like that part

43:52

of it. I mean, I I have done the other. I've done

43:54

some great recoupments of of

43:57

diplomatic circuit individuals, and I

43:59

do them on a tuxedo till this day. So

44:01

I I clean up well. But

44:03

deep in my heart, I I like getting my

44:05

hands dirty, and I like meeting

44:07

folks. And and and that

44:09

period in Latin America where

44:12

I was literally I literally recruited

44:14

a terrorist through coercion, but

44:16

nonetheless, it was something that it was easy

44:18

in my character to say, hey, this is

44:20

justifiable, and of course, we had the permissions

44:22

to do so. It was it

44:24

was an easier transition that somebody

44:26

that was used to you

44:28

know, Paris or something like

44:30

that and all of a sudden now they're being sent to

44:33

a place where it is a third world

44:35

and people are trying to kill you.

44:37

Another thing that I find quite interesting

44:40

is it seems to

44:42

me from the book that you a

44:44

lot of your workers South or Central

44:46

America and then East

44:48

Asia, Korea, also

44:50

North Africa. Sorry. So there's quite

44:52

there's quite a lot of ground that you cover

44:54

I guess the question is for

44:57

many people like you find your niche,

45:00

you stick to the niche because reaffirms

45:03

your sense of self worth because

45:06

you're the person that knows about that

45:08

niche. So that seems

45:10

to be the more topical thing,

45:12

not just for people in the intelligence

45:15

but just in life. But for

45:17

someone like you to go

45:19

from p j to

45:21

parimal or trade to case

45:23

officer from Latin America

45:26

to Korea to Shangriela. There's

45:29

a lot of lateral moves.

45:31

There's a lot of adaptations and

45:34

communion like behavior,

45:36

and I mean, not in the best possible way.

45:38

For people that are less than, like, how does one

45:40

go about doing that? Because hypothetically,

45:43

you just find the thing that you are comfortable

45:45

with. You respect to that because

45:47

it makes you feel secure and then you don't

45:49

move perhaps I just have a shorter

45:52

pension span. And and

45:54

how do you understand? You know, I've come for

45:56

this. I gotta go do something else. You

45:58

know, our our our officers sell

46:01

them do more than three years in country

46:03

because of exposure and

46:05

just wear and tear. So

46:08

you are going to be moving from different accounts

46:10

and different cultures to certain

46:12

degree. For me, it came easy

46:15

just because I

46:17

wanted to go where the average person

46:19

wasn't going. That was always my niche.

46:21

Shankary law was a perfect example. I

46:24

was a four years into my

46:26

SIS rank when

46:28

Cofr said, hey, you know, we need I

46:31

need you to get me somebody to go

46:33

to Shangri La and and help

46:36

us, you know, with the station that was just reopened.

46:38

The embassy had been closed for a

46:40

for a couple of years, I believe, And

46:43

I couldn't find anybody. I made a bunch of

46:45

phone calls to all the personnel officers

46:47

and all and said, no, we don't have anybody that's interested.

46:50

And for

46:53

several reasons, one was my wife did have

46:55

a medical scare there when we were

46:57

in Korea. And and

46:59

also because our kids were now of of

47:01

school age, they were in high school,

47:03

different different grades in high school. We

47:05

decided we were not going to take any further

47:08

overseas tours that

47:10

I would continue to do my work,

47:12

but do it more from headquarters and TDYs

47:14

and So when I went to my wife with

47:16

them with the fact, they said, look, I wanna do this. It's

47:18

gonna be probably six to eight months. She's

47:21

a trooper. I mean, I couldn't have done anything

47:23

that I did in my career without her. And you read

47:25

that in the book, she even participated in

47:28

some pretty cool adventures. But

47:32

it it was that that that

47:34

change, hey, natural,

47:36

just just chasing what was the the

47:38

the highlight topic. And there

47:40

there's also a I think I get

47:42

credited in the book is that I

47:45

didn't do any career planning. I

47:47

never sat there and said, you know, I need to get

47:49

this job in order to get my GS

47:51

thirteen, fourteen, fifteen, or as I asked,

47:55

I always followed the I

47:57

hate to use the word the action, but where

48:00

where the importance of the pointing in of the

48:02

spear needed to be. And

48:04

there there's there's two or three incidents

48:07

in in the book where though

48:09

those those changes came to me, I wasn't

48:11

looking for. I was chief of

48:13

the couriers, and that's how

48:15

I made senior grade. And I

48:17

was the rep to the NSC for the agency

48:19

on on that hard targets board. And

48:22

it was a great conventional job. I

48:24

loved it. Again, fighting communism. Very

48:27

sophisticated. I got involved in operations

48:29

because I like the lead from the front. And

48:31

that's in the book, at least one of them was what

48:33

they allowed me to talk about. But,

48:36

you know, I had a head crumpton

48:39

who to this day is the dear front of mine. He

48:41

called me up, and I had never met them. And I have heard

48:43

them. He says, I wanna talk to you.

48:45

And he's the one that I've I I went over

48:47

here, so we chatted over coffee, and he said, look,

48:50

I want you to be my replacement in a year.

48:53

And I wasn't

48:55

thinking of going back to the center of the time.

48:57

So all of the sudden, I find myself back

49:00

at the center as the chief of international

49:02

terrorism, which was everything except with Latin.

49:05

And then from there, moving to

49:08

the going to Shangriela and

49:11

coming back as as the chief of ops.

49:13

And then being the chief of Ops one nine eleven

49:15

actually happened. It's very similar to

49:17

what happened to me in in going to Costa

49:19

Rica and and and and going to Korea. It

49:22

was the chief of station that had asked for me.

49:25

In both those incidents for different reasons,

49:27

they had asked for me to be pitched

49:30

to do that. And there were both Surprising

49:33

changes because in both cases, I was supposed

49:35

already assigned to another country.

49:38

And at the last minute, you get this phone call that

49:40

says, every other chief wants to talk to you.

49:43

And I I end up in these other two assignments,

49:45

which were absolutely wonderful. But

49:48

the whim of my picky Yeah.

49:50

It was my, you know,

49:52

you know, my mentors or or

49:54

leaders saying he he that's

49:56

a good fit for

49:57

him. That certainly comes across

49:59

in the book like it wasn't a

50:02

a chess match of trying to get

50:04

as far up of of the the

50:06

higher records you could get. It was more

50:08

where is the action on the chessboard?

50:11

That's where I want to be.

50:12

Yeah. I I think that the

50:14

greater majority of the

50:17

agency folks and, you know,

50:19

you kind of understand and you know

50:21

this. The agency is not just operators.

50:23

So the the the guys who are ops officers,

50:26

case officers is a is a finite

50:28

number. We cannot do anything

50:30

without the support of

50:32

everybody else from logistics to security,

50:35

from our analysts, it is

50:37

a team sport. And each one of

50:39

those individuals goes into that

50:41

career track logistics,

50:43

security, whatever it is, but you do it through the agency

50:46

because you believe in it. You believe

50:48

in it. You're you're trying to make bigger difference.

50:50

So whether AD0 officer or

50:53

a DI officer or a DA officer.

50:56

I found that the majority of the

50:58

people that I worked with were

51:00

mission oriented. Whatever their

51:02

mission was. Mission oriented.

51:04

They were proud and they were very

51:07

focused on making sure that they kept their

51:09

end of whatever needed

51:12

to to be in operation. That

51:14

said, like in any culture, I mean,

51:16

in the military, you have guys who go in

51:19

and, you know, the Billy Waz of the world

51:21

that go into harm's way for four

51:23

tours in row and have eight purple hearts.

51:26

And then you have the other ones that, you know,

51:29

debitate towards the the the circuit

51:31

and become military actives, and

51:33

they all end up at the same place, but by

51:36

by different means. I

51:39

I was blessed with opportunities

51:42

that allowed me to polish myself and

51:44

to grow and each

51:46

one of these tours because they were so different.

51:49

When you come out of there, you have a different

51:51

level of confidence because now you've conquered

51:53

yet another cold or another challenging

51:56

things, we're working at a different kind of

51:58

a target. Let let's go

52:00

forward to September the tenth

52:02

two thousand and one. I think that's

52:04

quite interesting because you're you're

52:07

there at the counterterrorism center

52:11

news has came through about Ahmed

52:14

Charmsoud who's been assassinated by

52:17

Al Qaeda operatives and the

52:19

book you outline how you're thinking

52:21

to yourself. This is this is

52:24

pretty sophisticated the way that they've

52:26

done this. It seems like something

52:28

else is is happening. Take us

52:30

back to the the day September

52:33

the

52:33

tenth. Help us understand what it was like to

52:35

be Rick Prado on September the tenth,

52:37

two thousand and one?

52:41

To paint you better picture, I will start

52:44

with again one of these jobs that I was

52:46

asked to take that I didn't even know existed,

52:48

which was I'm a plank owner of the BitLOD

52:50

and task force. Mike Shoyer, a

52:53

brilliant analyst, was the

52:55

chief of the station and I was a deputy chief

52:57

of station. That was my first

53:00

exposure to what became

53:02

al Qaeda, and the Taliban, and and

53:04

and everything else. So I had that

53:06

knowledge behind me of their

53:08

motive of Miranda and The one thing

53:11

that I learned really early on in kind of terrorism,

53:13

especially when it comes to the, you know,

53:16

the Al Qaeda type of of terrorism

53:18

is The guys

53:20

who pulled off nine eleven had

53:22

enough education to fly a seven forty

53:25

seven into a building. Killing

53:27

Maussaud was one of the most clinical

53:30

operations anybody could tell.

53:33

They went in there into the hornet's nest

53:35

and that kind of dedication. So

53:37

you you cannot underestimate your

53:39

enemy if you want to win your fights. So

53:43

nine eleven, I was like like

53:45

every single one of us, we know exactly where

53:47

we were standing and what we were doing. And

53:51

I knew it was something bigger as

53:53

soon as that second plane hit, my

53:56

my first comments

53:58

to the the chief of staff was, I need

54:00

you to send out a cable to every

54:02

station, telling them number

54:04

one, watch your six. This is not a single

54:07

connect. And number two,

54:09

turn up every rock as we need to know

54:11

who these guys are and where their their

54:14

their softer belly buttons are at. That

54:16

that was by very first action. As

54:19

you probably know, the agency was

54:21

forced to evacuate. Because

54:23

that other there was other planes and

54:25

they felt that the agency was a viable

54:28

target. I mean, I would have hit it first.

54:30

Knowing what I know, but I guess they they went

54:32

for the political part over the the economic

54:35

and impact. But CTC stayed

54:37

open. The counterterrorism center stayed open. Hope

54:39

for Black who to this day is is

54:42

one of my dearest friends and mentor, he

54:44

said, I'm not going anywhere. You you're

54:46

all free to go. And especially

54:48

if you have kids that came out of school and all that other,

54:51

you're free to go. But the the

54:53

counter terrorist center stayed open.

54:55

I slept in my office for three nights.

54:58

Without going home. Goodly taking

55:00

showers in the gym. And one

55:03

of my one of my favorite stories of that

55:05

period and I use it to show

55:07

the contrast on

55:09

what media portrays our people

55:12

like to the reality of

55:14

of of the courage conviction that

55:16

my colleagues display every

55:18

single day. It was around eight o'clock

55:20

at night on nine eleven.

55:23

And I was making the rounds because

55:25

CTC was a huge open area

55:27

with gazillion cubicles.

55:32

And I walked up to the area

55:34

where Hezbolla branch was because my office was

55:36

on the other side, And there was this

55:38

young lady that was sitting at

55:40

the desk. She was the deputy of the Hasbola

55:43

branch. She was eight months

55:45

pregnant. And I walked up

55:47

to her and I said, what

55:49

are you doing here? And she says, well,

55:51

I'm not convinced that this was Bin Laden.

55:54

I want to make sure that it wasn't Tesla. Well,

55:56

let's face it. That's where I had killed more Americans,

55:59

two hundred and forty six of them. As matter of fact,

56:01

before nine eleven, they they had killed more Americans

56:03

than anybody else. And I

56:06

looked at her and I said, look, I've delivered two

56:08

kids in my life. None of them were mine.

56:10

I ain't about to do the third. So

56:13

I forced her to go home. I had one of our logistics

56:15

guys take her home that night. I

56:18

saw her again few years

56:20

later and she came to me

56:22

and she said, you know, every

56:25

birthday that my daughter has, I think

56:27

of you. Because

56:29

you forced me to get out of it. And and the the

56:32

moral of the story is the

56:34

strongest drive in

56:36

the human race is

56:38

the mother instinct to protect her

56:40

child. And this woman

56:43

eight months pregnant was able

56:45

to turn that off and stay in harm's

56:47

way

56:48

to get her job done.

56:50

And that there's a really beautiful figure

56:52

at the end of the book where you discussed,

56:55

Julie Klaritch, phoned you up and said,

56:57

you need to come and

56:59

you go in the the two of you said

57:01

and you have this moment

57:04

where you realize that he's

57:06

passing the torch onto you.

57:08

I was wondering, have you

57:11

thought to yourself? Who's the person that

57:13

I'm going to pass the torch

57:15

onto, Jake? I work.

57:17

I I already have, actually.

57:19

Oh, you already

57:20

have? Can you tell us who? Yeah. No. I

57:22

I cannot mention that by name, my old deputy

57:24

for one in in that in that last effort that

57:27

that ended up being extremely high

57:29

rank in the agency. He was a guy

57:31

that was always smarter than I

57:33

was and just as good as anything

57:36

as I was. I

57:38

I would consider him, like,

57:40

one of the two or three people that I

57:43

actually mentored and

57:46

pass on the baton inside the agency

57:48

and even afterwards. My deal with

57:50

Dewey was actually helping him

57:52

post my agency career. I

57:55

was still working with the community. This

57:57

is outside of the book, so I cannot go into details.

58:00

But for the next eight years after retirement,

58:02

I did nothing different then

58:04

run programs for the community in

58:06

a very different way. And

58:09

do we that was one of the

58:11

things he wanted me to take over was some of these

58:14

great thing connectivities that he had here and

58:16

there. And

58:18

it ended up being really sexy things

58:20

to run. But, yeah,

58:24

it it was it was never

58:26

a career thing. It was always a

58:28

purpose and You know, I made

58:30

some mistakes as as lot of young

58:32

guys would do by being kind of a

58:34

jerk, getting into fights and crap. But

58:38

you know, I believe that we can

58:40

build enough good karma

58:43

that it will get us to the

58:45

right afterlife for as far as I'm concerned.

58:47

And for me, it was always a mission. For me,

58:49

it was a the purifying fire for

58:52

me was the agency. And a paragraph. I'm

58:55

very

58:55

proud. Very, very proud. I would have

58:57

not gotten into into the agency that had

58:59

w for paragraph.

59:01

It's been so great to speak to you. I could speak

59:03

to you all night just to bring it to her

59:05

clothes. think there's a there's another really beautiful

59:08

Vignet at the beginning of the book.

59:10

Which I alluded to earlier. You're

59:13

seven years old. You're

59:15

looking out of the window and

59:17

you see the spinella on your

59:20

front porch firing into

59:22

a bar that that policeman used

59:24

a frequent and then your journey

59:26

to be where you are now.

59:28

And I guess the question is, have

59:31

you been back to Kibat? Is it still

59:33

that part of your insight that it still

59:36

longs to go home? Or do you do you

59:38

feel like you've moved on now? And

59:41

help me understand. You know,

59:44

Cuba is my roots.

59:46

That's my cultural roots. That's my family

59:49

roots. I'm very proud

59:51

of being Cuban born. I'm an American,

59:54

first and foremost, that I have

59:56

an affinity towards Cuba of

59:58

course, because that's that's home. You've

1:00:00

given me more credit probably that that

1:00:02

is deserved in that sense. I mean, I

1:00:04

didn't plan any of this. These

1:00:07

things just were things that

1:00:09

went came in my way and I and I had to

1:00:11

watch some of the other ones I chose to watch,

1:00:13

but it it is not that that unique.

1:00:15

I I will tell you that I have a very good front

1:00:18

of mine. I will not mention his name

1:00:20

because I can't. But if agency

1:00:22

guy, that's how we retired from the agency senior

1:00:24

grade, but he was in the bay

1:00:26

of pigs as a seventeen

1:00:29

year old. He turned eighteen in

1:00:31

a Cuban jail. When

1:00:33

Kennedy extricated them through

1:00:35

the trade of tractors and medicines, he

1:00:38

joined the Green Bureaus and he went to Vietnam

1:00:40

and he had tours in Vietnam. Then he

1:00:43

came back and he went to

1:00:45

Georgetown that his degree and

1:00:47

then joined the agency and had fantastic

1:00:49

career and retired our SIS something.

1:00:54

So organizations like the agency have

1:00:57

a lot of rig problems. We will never

1:00:59

have a shortage of warriors. We could

1:01:01

do better in leadership, but we

1:01:03

don't never have a shortage of people that are willing to

1:01:05

go in harm this way And that

1:01:08

was the fascinating thing for me in

1:01:11

working with the CIA was that

1:01:13

If I look at right or left, I saw people

1:01:15

that I admired. Some junior to me,

1:01:17

some senior to me, some of my peers, but

1:01:20

were people that I was extremely, extremely

1:01:22

proud to be part of. And and

1:01:24

again, why I'm writing the

1:01:26

book because I want the average American

1:01:29

to see what a real CIA operation

1:01:32

looks like. I Jason Vaughan,

1:01:34

I James Vaughan, as many books of his as I

1:01:36

read, that's not what we do. Still waiting

1:01:38

for my house to Martin.

1:01:40

We we don't it was a Scott. Right?

1:01:42

So

1:01:43

Come to the Spine Museum. We have one in the lobby.

1:01:46

I know how might drive it off. But

1:01:49

it was that trajectory that

1:01:52

being seen the amount of

1:01:54

talent and conviction in

1:01:56

patriotism that all

1:01:59

my peers display data

1:02:00

in, day out, who's humbling.

1:02:03

Very rewarding career. I think

1:02:05

that that's one

1:02:07

of the things that and a humble

1:02:09

way I am trying to do

1:02:11

with the Spycast. There's just to humanize

1:02:13

intelligence professionals, you

1:02:15

know, they're regular folks

1:02:18

and and some senses, but extra ordinary

1:02:20

folks and other senses. That's

1:02:22

one of the humble goals I have

1:02:24

for the podcast just to try to get these stories

1:02:27

out

1:02:27

there. And I and I truly appreciate

1:02:29

your time on this and and your effort on this

1:02:31

because It is very important to me.

1:02:33

You know, when when my grandson was born and I

1:02:36

was starting to read, I

1:02:38

I said, I don't want him to learn about the

1:02:40

agency from the movies.

1:02:42

So it's great. Well, and

1:02:45

and and the next time that we talk, I I will

1:02:47

tell you my Scottish story when I went

1:02:49

to MI6, that's exactly

1:02:51

what happened. The Scott guy that was my counterpart

1:02:55

taught me how to drink single malt Scotch

1:02:58

and was just getting into cigars, and I thought

1:03:00

about cigars. So I'd I'd do it again without

1:03:02

a picture her. Thanks

1:03:06

so much for your time, Rick. It's

1:03:08

been really a pleasure to speak to you. I've enjoyed

1:03:10

it very much and I really loved your book and

1:03:13

I hope it does gangbusters and

1:03:15

everybody hears about your incredible

1:03:17

story. Look

1:03:18

forward to meeting you in question. Thank you.

1:03:20

Thank you very much.

1:03:21

Thank you. Bye bye. I

1:03:27

Thanks for listening to this episode of

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