0:00

Recently, Steve and I sat down and talked to the

0:02

Brothers of Four, King and Country. That's

0:04

Luke and Joel Smallbone about the goal

0:06

of making this movie.

0:07

The biggest mistake. I said this making the movie,

0:09

the biggest mistake that we could make is

0:12

have a movie that does not

0:14

demand some sort of response after,

0:16

yeah, the greatest movies out there. Braveheart.

0:19

Gladiator. Braveheart. You're left

0:21

with freedom and bravery

0:24

and Gladiator, you're left with

0:26

courage in the midst of unsurmountable

0:29

issues. You know, all of those types of things. The

0:31

movies that go away are the ones that

0:33

you go, yeah, cool. Yeah. That's

0:35

nice. You just don't. You don't live with it. But if,

0:37

I mean, I never forget, uh, maybe

0:39

I shouldn't have watched this, but do you remember a movie called there Will Be

0:41

Blood? Do you remember that movie?

0:43

I remember hearing about it.

0:44

It's one of the greatest acting things

0:46

I've ever seen by Daniel Day-Lewis. And

0:49

it's about a basically an oil tycoon gone

0:51

bad. Okay? It made me

0:53

so angry at the.

0:55

I would do anything to

0:58

have destroyed that person. Yeah, but

1:00

that's what they were trying to illustrate. Look at what?

1:02

Look at what? Greed. What greed and look what

1:04

all these things can do. And it was he

1:07

was kind of manipulating some of the people around him.

1:09

And you were just like, so angry. But

1:11

I'll never forget that movie, and I'll never forget

1:14

the power of greed.

1:15

And that just proves how God made us. Like

1:17

we have this part of us

1:20

that longs for everything to

1:22

be made right. And when it

1:24

connects with your story and you want to throw

1:26

punch somebody you.

1:28

I love the throat. I love that it's not like in

1:31

the nose or in the stomach. Oh no, it's a throat.

1:34

What do you have against the throat? Is that that's what you.

1:37

Do for a living. It's like if my.

1:38

Throat was gone, I would be the smartest

1:40

place to punch someone. If you really want to inflict

1:42

a lot of damage on. Yeah, so.

1:44

That's just it. Like, I am not a violent

1:46

person. This is not my normal. By the way, both.

1:49

Of you are sending very violent right now. Looks like

1:51

he just wanted to kill the guy. You're

1:53

going to throw punch. Dad's like,

1:56

tell him.

1:56

Don't tell him. I think it's too late. That

2:00

is how deep that storyline

2:02

of your dad. An unsung hero,

2:05

connected with my spirit because

2:07

of my life experience, the

2:09

way that he's portrayed in the movie. And that's

2:12

what I want to talk about a little bit, because my

2:14

reaction was so strong

2:16

emotional that I wanted to act out

2:19

against him. I don't typically

2:21

do that. I'm just like, yeah, okay, peace out. We

2:23

just want be friends. This brought

2:25

out a whole new level in Mama

2:28

Bear.

2:28

As we will call her.

2:30

100%.

2:32

I wanted to protect every small bone child.

2:35

I wanted to protect your mom. I wanted to

2:37

go up to him and say, now look, I'm

2:40

a bear.

2:41

It's real.

2:42

You're saying this is what you want? You want

2:44

a reaction?

2:46

Uh, yes. Look, we.

2:49

Art is a funny business because you

2:51

you set out to sell something truthful.

2:54

And in this case. The

2:56

tenants of this story are very truthful. We actually had

2:58

this debate even down to like,

3:00

is this based on a true story? Or is is

3:02

this a true story? And we literally took out the based

3:05

at the beginning of the film because it's it is

3:08

very close to reality.

3:10

But someone said something really wise

3:12

to me when they were talking about the delineation between documentaries

3:15

and films. They said, films

3:17

are a portrait of a moment,

3:19

documentaries are a picture. And

3:22

so in a portrait you do embellish

3:25

and you push and pull on things. And, and

3:27

one of the things that dad said along

3:29

the way to me is

3:31

that I externalized

3:35

a lot of what he was feeling internally.

3:38

So my, my big focus

3:40

in in playing him was actually

3:42

no offense tone, but was was

3:44

really towards men I

3:47

wanted and I think we wanted men.

3:49

With regard to his character specifically, you

3:51

know, mom was very different, but we wanted

3:53

men to feel like,

3:56

oh my goodness, I have felt all those

3:58

things. In some cases, I have done all those things.

4:00

In some cases I have said all of those things.

4:02

Can I be forgiven? And

4:05

so, you know, I think there's going to be points where,

4:07

yeah, they sort of punch you in the throat

4:09

thing. Taking it as a badge of honour

4:11

is maybe a bit far to go, but

4:14

I think the balancing act for

4:16

us is going to for men.

4:20

Husbands, fathers,

4:22

even grandfathers. To

4:25

see themselves in a career man and

4:27

go, there's another way.

4:29

Recently on Don and Steve in the morning, we

4:31

sat down with Joel and Luke Smallbone.

4:34

You know them. As for King and Country, they

4:36

have a brand new movie coming out about the whole

4:38

family. It's an adventure called Unsung

4:40

Hero. Joel, as you watched your dad

4:42

struggle, he was providing for his family.

4:45

How did watching his struggle

4:47

influence the faith of your

4:49

family?

4:53

I think when your faith

4:55

is really tested is when

4:58

you feel implicated

5:00

in the very struggle

5:03

that you have created. So

5:05

for for David. Um,

5:08

and I'll come back to me. But for staying

5:10

with dad for a moment, he created

5:13

this like he was the champion to

5:15

go to America. He was the one that

5:17

got the job. He was the one that lost the job. He

5:19

was the one that couldn't pay for, you know, a

5:21

little sister to be born in a hospital. So

5:23

every reflection of

5:25

every time a kid mow the lawn or cleaned

5:27

the house was a utter

5:30

reflection of his failure.

5:32

And praying in that like, it's

5:34

one thing to pray when something happened

5:37

to you and you were victimized and

5:39

there's nothing you could do and you pray yourself out of

5:41

that, it's another thing to sort of work your way

5:43

out of that and have faith when you feel

5:45

and you know, Steve, we're all

5:48

at some level. We're all rescuers and we're all

5:50

saviors in our own mind like we want to be.

5:52

Yeah, we want to be. And so

5:55

praying yourself out of it, when you feel

5:57

responsible that you put

5:59

people that you love the most on the planet in

6:01

the situation is a

6:03

pretty heavy load. And it was very indicative

6:06

for me personally. And that's what I love about

6:08

film, is how whether

6:10

you're in it, whether you experience it, you watch it,

6:13

you put yourself in

6:15

these people's lives and

6:17

in their shoes. And in my case, putting

6:19

myself in my dad's shoes

6:21

and then reflecting back for me, I'm

6:23

not a dad yet. I do not have six kids. But

6:25

reflecting back to me as a husband,

6:27

reflecting back to me as a

6:29

career man, reflecting back to me

6:32

my levels of control, which

6:34

I'm still. Day

6:36

in and day out, uh, is one of the

6:38

things I the wars I wage

6:40

is like controlling an environment, a situation

6:43

and wanting to, you know,

6:45

step in that gap, if you will.

6:48

Um, it's a daily thing. And it's

6:50

been very instructive for me, you

6:52

know, to to have his story

6:55

in some ways very different. But but the struggle

6:57

of shame, I mean,

6:59

shame, man, we could just pop for

7:01

the next the rest of this podcast on the word

7:04

shame. And we could stay there

7:06

because it is riddled in

7:08

so many men today.

7:10

And women, I mean, like it just this we

7:12

did not do the right thing. And even in faith

7:15

it's riddled into faith as well. And so

7:18

that shame I found

7:20

it was. Although again, I'm on paper,

7:22

I'm not a dad and all the rest of it. I found it very

7:25

a short bridge to cross. For

7:27

me personally to put myself in his position.

7:30

Yeah.

7:31

So, like, you produced the movie, but why

7:33

did you want to tell your family story?

7:36

Well, first of all, a couple

7:38

things. Thank you first and foremost for

7:40

being honest about your guttural response

7:42

to it. Yeah, because

7:44

I do think film does

7:46

something. And that's part of the reason why you I think you were

7:48

expecting us to be a little bit like, oh,

7:51

you know.

7:51

Yeah.

7:52

That's hurtful. No, I have

7:54

no issues with it at all because I actually feel

7:56

like art can bring

7:58

up things in people that is a part

8:00

of their ongoing process of forgiveness.

8:04

And I think what's difficult is I think a lot

8:06

of us feel like, hey, I have

8:08

a sibling and I have this problem with him,

8:10

and I call him up and I've totally forgiven

8:12

him. Well, the truth is, can

8:15

you really undo substantial damage

8:17

in one phone call? You

8:19

can move past and say, I'm willing myself

8:22

to make the phone call and acknowledging

8:24

that I needed forgiveness, but

8:26

does that erase all of the things

8:29

that have taken place? No, it doesn't erase.

8:31

I think for a long time we thought in the church

8:33

that it was, hey, forgive and forget.

8:36

I think that there's

8:38

an element of truth to those things,

8:40

but God also has us learning from

8:43

our past. And also, I think,

8:45

forgiveness for deep, deep, deep

8:47

trauma is an ongoing

8:49

life journey. And

8:51

I think that sometimes art has a way

8:54

of poking and prodding on things

8:56

that is, is for our best

8:58

to take note of, and then to

9:01

do our best to take another step

9:03

to another step of that healing. Because

9:06

God wants full healing in our lives. He wants full

9:08

freedom, as you were just talking about with my dad.

9:10

And sometimes that journey

9:12

isn't. So I made the one phone call

9:15

or I set up the coffee meeting and I said

9:17

all the things that might be just the first

9:19

step, but there's an ongoing process. And second

9:22

to you asking why

9:24

I feel like the

9:26

power of family is

9:28

more important today. I think the

9:30

family is more important today than ever has been

9:33

in the history of the world, but yet we do not value

9:35

it as such. The truth is,

9:37

even what you felt with the film, man,

9:39

how our family has stayed together,

9:42

our family has worked through

9:44

some hard things, has gone through some

9:46

challenging moments and our family, as you experienced,

9:49

is not a perfect family by any stretch

9:51

of the imagination. But we

9:53

got to see a trail of God's faithfulness

9:56

through our family, and

9:58

my hope is that people will watch the film

10:00

and they will go, I want

10:02

to be a better dad. Yeah. Could

10:04

I be a mom? My mom is not a perfect mother,

10:07

but what she's depicted in the film

10:09

is a good mother. She was a good mother.

10:11

Can I be a good mother? I think also

10:14

you forget that there's a lot of

10:16

kids involved in that situation as well. Can I be

10:18

a better brother? Can I be a

10:20

sister? Can I be a brother that looks up

10:22

to a sister that supports a sister? Can I be a

10:24

sister that looks up and cherishes

10:26

the love of a brother? Those are the things

10:29

I think have more

10:31

implication in today's day and age

10:33

than we can ever imagine. Doing

10:35

things just for a claim and for

10:37

glory. Yes, I understand

10:39

maybe why people have hopes

10:41

for that, but it's the things that that

10:43

nobody sees. That's where the power is.

10:45

And what I think of is that's

10:47

perfectly illustrated in family. Family

10:50

isn't seen a lot of the times, but if you

10:52

do it well, it will have generational positive

10:54

consequences.

10:55

For King and Country. Recently we're in the

10:57

studio and we sat down, had

10:59

a little conversation about the upcoming

11:02

film Unsung Hero.

11:04

What is God been doing in your life

11:06

lately?

11:07

It's always the irony, isn't it,

11:09

that? The

11:12

very thing that you

11:15

know can be the most traumatic or the most

11:17

difficult, the most dark. Is

11:20

the very thing that forms

11:22

you. I think it's so funny because

11:24

and I say this very sensitively, but

11:26

we're often at risk of demonizing

11:28

the doc. You

11:31

know, so it's dark and light and all the rest

11:33

of it. And yet there's so much formation

11:35

that happens in the dark, like we were formed in the womb.

11:38

In the dark. We restore

11:40

our bodies in the dark.

11:42

And so what

11:44

this story represents, and

11:46

I have to say too, if you're listening like

11:49

it's not as heavy as as maybe

11:51

we've kicked this thing off like there's a, there's a,

11:53

it's an adventure. Like the six

11:55

kids and and banding together

11:57

and there's this whole other side that feels

12:00

sort of whimsical and it's music and

12:02

it's 90s and it's it's Rod Stewart

12:04

and it's Jesus Jones and it's, it's,

12:07

you know, Michael W Smith and it's striper,

12:09

you know, and it's seal and like it's

12:12

all of these great, you know, nostalgic

12:14

moments for particularly for children of the 90s.

12:17

But it was also a forging time.

12:19

I particularly for mum and dad

12:22

and in some ways in turn for us,

12:24

because the lines were no longer

12:26

delineated. It wasn't like Mom and Dad's would

12:28

have protected us from everything, and we sort of lived

12:30

in this utopian. And then we got to 20 years old and we

12:33

face the real world for the first time. It was like, no,

12:35

when we sat in that circle, which is a very

12:37

real to life moment and prayed over everything. They

12:39

told us the reality of where we found ourselves.

12:42

We felt separated from our grandparents, from our

12:44

uncles and aunties, from our world, from our life.

12:47

And yet in the safety

12:49

of their love. It became

12:51

an adventure. And there was I

12:54

look back, I don't think either Luke or I look

12:56

back with any level of trauma. In fact, we

12:58

look we see forging the

13:00

very tenets of what we did.

13:02

Then in the simple things,

13:04

the raking leaves, the mowing lawns are cleaning the houses.

13:07

I don't think you can underestimate

13:11

the ways that from that day to

13:13

this, that forged us as

13:15

a family to

13:17

compromise, to forgive each other, to

13:19

show grace to each other, to be able to work together,

13:22

you know, in partnership in a band

13:24

and so on. So I think if

13:26

you again, if you plucked us out of that time and you either

13:28

kept us in Australia or dad didn't lose his job,

13:31

I don't think I actually don't think Rebecca

13:33

and James ever existed in that multiverse.

13:35

I don't think the King Country is around. Yeah.

13:37

And and that's why it was so

13:40

thrilling to tell this story is like, this

13:42

is sort of the origin story of it's

13:44

the house that built us, you know, in God

13:46

and in family.

13:47

Yeah.

13:48

What I do appreciate about the

13:50

storyline, other than the one that impacted

13:52

me so deeply, is that very

13:54

truth. When you

13:56

walk through those difficult times and appropriately

13:59

speak to your children, it isn't

14:01

trauma. Yeah, it's shared experience

14:04

100%. It's helping one another

14:07

go through the fire and come

14:09

out on the other side. The

14:11

pain points for us is when it's done to

14:13

us. That's right. Not with us.

14:15

That's right.

14:16

Now. So good. Dawn, we got to stay

14:18

on that. When it's done to

14:20

us.

14:21

We'll be here all day.

14:22

Yeah, well, I.

14:23

Think to your point, I've had a lot of people say, man,

14:25

so do you remember those days? And I'm like, absolutely,

14:27

very, very clearly. Well, what did you think.

14:29

And I think they're expecting some sort of trauma

14:31

response. And the thing is,

14:34

is because I was loved

14:36

and we were loved and we were

14:38

even though, you know, it doesn't

14:40

look like maybe cared for is a

14:42

unique term because we had everything

14:44

that we needed, just not a lot extra.

14:48

And because of that, I look back at those

14:50

times with great adventure, with great

14:52

memories. Now, if

14:54

those things did happen to us

14:56

and there wasn't mum and dad taking the bullets that

14:58

were coming and, you know, protecting

15:01

us, I think that there would be trauma, I

15:03

think there would be feeling of unsafe.

15:05

I think there would be all, all of those different things.

15:07

But, you know, one of the things that is just.

15:10

True is struggle produces something

15:12

in people and it's scriptural.

15:15

It produces perseverance, it produces

15:17

character, and that ultimately

15:19

ends up with hope. I think that

15:21

verse that sums up our family's

15:24

experience.

15:24

Yeah. One of the other scenes that

15:26

just I so loved was

15:29

the prayer wall that you had there,

15:31

where there were prayer requests and answers to prayer

15:34

as you prayed

15:36

together as a family and as

15:38

you took those requests to God, those

15:41

needs that you had as a family, and

15:43

you saw him move from such

15:45

a young age and your parents bringing

15:47

you guys into that, how do you think

15:49

that helped form your faith?

15:51

That was pivotal. And

15:53

we both sort of crossed that line

15:55

into faith when we were eight years old. And

15:58

I don't think you can separate

16:01

these experiences from

16:04

that decision because it

16:06

was just so tangible. We

16:08

couldn't cover our rent and we'd pray for,

16:10

you know, money just to

16:12

cover our rent. You know, a check would

16:14

come in the mail, mysteriously, would cover our rent

16:17

by dollars, you know, or, you

16:19

know, we didn't have any way for liberty

16:21

to be born in a hospital, which we've mentioned. And

16:23

someone anonymously just footed the whole bill like

16:26

there were these things we even down

16:28

to, which is depicted at some level in the film,

16:30

is like, we love Santa Claus. We made such

16:32

a big thing out of Santa Claus, uh,

16:34

growing up. And mom was

16:36

worried that Santa wouldn't be able to find us

16:38

or be we wouldn't be able to afford these

16:41

gifts. And with the

16:43

wink, wink, nudge nudge, the help of a of

16:45

a a first grade school class Santa

16:47

was able to bring us more presents

16:49

than we've ever had as a

16:51

family. And so even in the things that were

16:53

almost not needs, even once, we

16:56

felt very. And so it was sort of this like, oh, yeah, this

16:58

is this is very real and very

17:00

tangible. I'll say this though, it was very much

17:02

not a genie in the bottle moment because

17:04

we were out doing the thing like

17:06

we weren't just sitting in the living room

17:09

all day. We were out raking the leaves

17:11

and mowing the lawns and doing the work

17:13

and babysitting, and all the money would go back

17:15

into the family. So we're out. It's the

17:17

the, a proverb that has just stuck with me lately.

17:20

As we make our plans, God orders our steps and

17:22

like we were making plans and

17:24

God was just there sort of ordering

17:26

the steps.

17:27

To ensure it all happened. The movie Unsung Hero

17:29

is going to be released on April 26th.

17:31

You've probably seen some press about this.

17:34

We've had the honor of speaking to Joel

17:36

and Luke Smallbone for King and Country

17:38

to talk about the movie that is about the

17:40

entire family. It gives you a

17:42

little insight as to how, for King

17:44

and Country came to be. Rebecca Saint James.

17:47

And this question I

17:49

had for the brothers as we moved

17:51

into the final segment.

17:53

In this conversation, I think

17:56

of the success that the Lord has ordered

17:58

your steps. As you said, Joel, the success that

18:00

you guys have had is for King and Country, the

18:02

success Rebecca has had, and

18:04

that even the other siblings that

18:06

may not have a name on the marquee doing

18:09

well. One brother is running lights

18:11

for so many different things, and we

18:13

see that storyline a little bit in the film.

18:16

Is there ever a little bit of nostalgia

18:18

that says, you know, with success

18:20

comes what is it with, um,

18:22

what? It's Spider-Man's power

18:25

comes.

18:25

Great.

18:25

Responsibility. Yeah. Do you ever

18:28

have just a moment

18:30

in a day that goes, I kind of

18:32

have nostalgia for when it

18:34

wasn't so complicated. Yes.

18:36

Yeah.

18:37

Man. Answer. Yes.

18:39

Absolutely. Um.

18:42

And maybe we're still working through that. I

18:44

have thought about those

18:46

things often because

18:49

I think even for what you guys do, there is

18:51

a responsibility. There's a weight

18:54

to it. And I think

18:56

earlier on, I probably felt the

18:58

weight independently, like, you

19:00

know, what do you do when you show up to a writing session? You've

19:02

got no ideas and you've got record labels

19:04

asking for the next thing you know, the next song.

19:07

And and I've actually had to kind

19:09

of learn to, um,

19:11

share that responsibility. And what I mean

19:13

by that is we're guaranteed

19:15

this to not do it by

19:17

ourselves. We have this thing

19:19

called Jesus. And when I say a thing

19:22

is it's the Holy Spirit, it's God.

19:24

And they say, the Holy Spirit is the helper. And

19:26

Jesus said, hey, there's somebody else coming that is

19:28

far greater than me. So think about that.

19:30

Think of all the things that Jesus did and he's saying, someone's coming

19:32

better. So that tells

19:34

me that there's a there is a invitation

19:37

for friendship as an invitation

19:40

for partnership. And so

19:42

where I've tried to change is, is when

19:44

my humanistic mind gets to

19:47

this is too much is

19:49

that's when you pray, you know. And and that sounds

19:51

in some cases cliche. Right. But

19:54

when you really learn to pray, that

19:56

statement is no longer a cliche. When

19:58

you're going to church and you're just

20:00

hearing people pray, that statement will sound cliche.

20:02

But if you're listening to this, go and learn

20:05

how to pray and that you will hinge your life

20:07

on that statement.

20:08

So how have you learned how to pray? Because

20:10

I think some people hear that and they say,

20:12

well, it sounds good. Yeah. I don't even need

20:14

good sentiment. Yeah. Right.

20:16

Because, well, I said

20:18

this a little while ago, I, my wife

20:20

used to say, Luke, sometimes you

20:22

pray as if you're on a platform.

20:25

Hmm. And that, like, it actually

20:27

kind of stung. But it was true. There was no rebuttal

20:29

there. It was just like a oh, that

20:31

stings a little bit. In a good way. I

20:33

have learned to pray my angry

20:35

prayers, my joyful prayers,

20:38

my prayers have I need wisdom,

20:40

my my prayers. If I'm completely

20:43

overwhelmed, my prayers of Lord, I

20:45

need you to intervene on on my behalf

20:47

to my children. I need your

20:49

support and how I care for my wife.

20:52

That's how I think we're meant to pray,

20:54

and I'm still learning to do it more

20:57

and more. But I wake up in the morning

20:59

and I pray, Lord, will you silence the enemy?

21:01

Will you give purpose to my day? And

21:04

will you teach me something I don't know? And

21:06

if I can just, you know, lean

21:09

on those prayers throughout

21:12

the day, all of a sudden that weight is no,

21:14

it's lifted. That weight is no

21:16

longer dependent on my performance.

21:19

And look, we come from a family that, you know, has

21:21

probably performed a little bit too much.

21:23

You know.

21:24

But I also do recognize that

21:26

to whom much is given, much

21:29

is required. It's just that it doesn't

21:31

necessarily have to be independently

21:33

required of me. I take

21:35

the next thing, the next step,

21:37

and do the best that I can with it. And I

21:40

at that point I have to let go and,

21:42

and and hope for the best. Because if I

21:44

do try and manufacture what I'm hoping

21:46

to have happen, I mean, I'll

21:48

probably have a mental breakdown just with that, that

21:50

level of of of weight, it's too

21:52

much. So it was not made for us to handle.