0:00

Identity theft and religious Religionless

0:02

Christianity both coming up this hour. Don't miss it.

0:04

Steve is heading to Romans eight, first

0:07

with Jim Hannah and then Eric. Metaxas

0:09

will be with us in a few moments. (800) 555-7898

0:13

to join the conversation.

0:14

You know, the Bible says that we have an enemy who

0:16

is like a roaring lion seeking,

0:18

uh, those he may devour.

0:20

He's also the father of lies and

0:22

using some of those lies to

0:25

really try and tear us

0:27

apart, tear us to shreds.

0:29

And one of those things that he may be lying

0:31

to us about is our identity, who

0:34

we are, and what it means to

0:36

be in Christ. Joining us to talk a little bit

0:38

about that identity theft and how we can,

0:40

in a sense do battle is using

0:42

Romans. Chapter eight is James Hannah.

0:45

He has written a book entitled Identity

0:47

Theft. And, um, do you

0:49

prefer Jim or James?

0:51

Uh, Jim would be great. All right. Thank you.

0:53

Jim, I said the book says James Jim

0:55

Hanna. So I'm glad to meet you,

0:58

Jim. And, you know, what are some of the,

1:00

uh, common lies that

1:02

you see people in the church buying into

1:04

today lies from the enemy that we have

1:06

swallowed hook, line and sinker.

1:09

Yeah. Uh, I

1:11

think, you know, probably the

1:13

the ones that are most obvious,

1:15

uh, in, you know, from Romans eight is the thief

1:17

of condemnation, where, you

1:19

know, whatever I've done in my life, I'm

1:21

beyond repair. God, can't,

1:24

you know, fix me. Um,

1:26

the lie of distraction or

1:28

fixation is what I call it. You know,

1:30

we can fill our minds with whatever,

1:32

and it won't matter.

1:34

Uh, and then the thief of isolation

1:37

that, you know, we

1:39

kind of tend to believe that I can power

1:41

through on my own. Uh, people

1:43

don't really understand what I'm going through.

1:45

Those are some of the lies, I think, that

1:48

are the most, um, that

1:50

I hear most frequently.

1:51

Yeah, well, that condemnation one is a huge

1:54

one. I know that, you know, I struggle with

1:56

that. And a lot of friends. I've just had lunch

1:58

yesterday with a friend, and we were talking about the

2:00

fact that that is one that the

2:02

enemy comes at us with all the time.

2:05

And so when that lie

2:07

of condemnation is coming, you're

2:09

saying, let's go to Romans eight. Let's look at what

2:11

Scripture says when that lie

2:13

comes. How do you fight back using Romans

2:15

eight? Jim?

2:17

Yeah.

2:18

Well, Steve, I think there's a two themes

2:21

running through the book of Romans eight. One is our

2:23

identity in Christ and understanding

2:25

who we are. But then 21 times

2:27

in that chapter, the Holy Spirit is mentioned.

2:30

And so it's not something we can just

2:32

do on our own. We need the the Holy Spirit

2:35

to kind of help us out and give us the power

2:37

and the strength. But I would

2:39

say, you know, Romans eight one is one of my favorite

2:41

verses. And one of the words in

2:43

that chapter, that verse that means

2:45

so much to me is now there

2:47

is now no condemnation.

2:49

You know, I grew up believing, yes,

2:52

someday Jesus would deliver me

2:54

from whatever. But

2:56

right now I'm not under condemnation.

2:58

Which is a freeing thought

3:00

when. Yeah.

3:02

Yeah, that is huge. And

3:04

before we even, I guess, unpack some of these

3:06

lies a little bit more, maybe we need to back up

3:08

and talk about what is our genuine identity.

3:11

Once someone has believed

3:13

in Christ, and as the Apostle Paul

3:16

said, we are in Christ, as His spirit

3:18

is in us and we are in Christ. He is a Paul

3:20

phrase. Um, what

3:22

should that identity look like?

3:25

What? What then is true of us, Jim?

3:27

Yeah.

3:28

You know Paul, that was favored. Paul. Uh, Paul's

3:31

favorite term to use of the believer.

3:34

Uh, I believe he used it 31 times in his

3:36

letters to describe. We're in

3:38

Christ. We're in him. Um,

3:40

and understanding that, you know,

3:42

I think what's happening today is so many

3:44

people are attaching their identity to so

3:46

many other things other than Jesus.

3:49

Um, and our culture, uh, you

3:51

know, whatever. Um, you know,

3:54

our sexuality. Uh,

3:56

you know, politics. And we've

3:58

forgotten who we are. And

4:00

when we begin to realize,

4:02

um, this was really designed to be a discipleship

4:04

tool to help people really

4:07

discover this is what God

4:09

says about me. And I can live in the freedom

4:11

that he's given me. Um, because

4:14

of the cross, because of the resurrection,

4:16

I now have the hope that I can overcome.

4:19

Yeah. All right, so back to

4:22

Romans eight one and back to

4:24

that idea of condemnation. You said

4:26

the key word for

4:28

you. One of the key words for you in that verse is

4:30

now. And so

4:33

in light of what

4:35

we've just been talking about and in light

4:37

of that now, so the person who's struggling

4:39

with the condemnation, who's struggling with the shame,

4:42

what is true of them, and how do we

4:44

begin to speak or remind ourselves

4:46

of these truths so that we're not stuck

4:48

in that condemnation lie?

4:51

Yeah.

4:52

Well, in each of the chapters,

4:54

I identify the thief, and then

4:56

I give a few statements of what that thief

4:59

sounds like, what he whispers

5:01

to us. But then they give a transforming

5:03

truth based on Romans eight,

5:05

and that in, you know, that first

5:07

chapter, it's because of Jesus. I am deeply

5:09

loved, completely forgiven, and no

5:12

longer under condemnation. Jesus

5:14

has given me his spirit to overcome regret,

5:16

fault, guilt, and shame.

5:19

Uh, you know, we're all familiar with John 316,

5:22

but we forget about John 317.

5:25

Jesus did not come into the world to condemn

5:27

the world, but that the world through him would

5:29

be saved, and those who believe

5:31

in him are no longer under condemnation.

5:33

And so, you know, we we

5:36

just need to you know, I've said

5:38

the greatest journey to freedom is 18in.

5:41

It's the distance between our head and our

5:43

heart. And so we

5:45

we may know these things to be true,

5:47

but have they sunk deeply into our,

5:50

our hearts. And so,

5:52

you know. Yeah. So I think

5:54

go ahead.

5:55

No, I was going to say I think you're dead on

5:57

with that. Sometimes it's a matter of reminding

6:00

the heart what the head knows

6:02

to be true and speaking that truth, even

6:04

audibly speaking that truth over and

6:06

over and over again, until that truth

6:08

begins to sink down in to that heart.

6:11

Jim Hanna with us. He has written the book

6:13

Identity Theft. It's all

6:15

about using Romans eight to reject

6:17

the lies of the enemy. And we're going to come back,

6:19

continue to talk about a couple

6:21

of those lies and how we can reject

6:24

that. Standing on the truth

6:26

of Scripture. And

6:28

we're joined this hour by Jim

6:31

Hanna. He's written a book entitled Identity

6:33

Theft. He's a pastor, professor,

6:35

author, works with pastors and

6:37

ministry leaders who need some help

6:40

and some encouragement, and does that through a

6:42

standing stone ministry, standing

6:44

Stone ministries. Org But Jim,

6:46

as we talk about some of the common lies

6:48

that the enemy tends to throw at us and the

6:50

things that he's trying to to steal from

6:52

us. You talk about the thief

6:54

of isolation in

6:57

the book. What do you mean by that? And

6:59

then where does Romans eight come into play?

7:02

Yeah.

7:04

You know, I think there are three things

7:06

that keep us away from people. There's

7:08

there's pride, alienation and shame.

7:11

And pride says, I don't need you.

7:13

I can do this by myself. Alienation

7:16

is I don't want you. Um,

7:19

you know, for those of us who are introverts,

7:21

it's easy for us to alienate or

7:23

isolate. And then shame

7:25

says, I don't deserve you. And

7:27

what's interesting in Romans eight is Paul

7:30

in that 13th verse, he

7:32

kind of shifts the pronouns from

7:34

you to we, and

7:37

he moves into community and talking

7:39

about how these truths apply to us,

7:42

uh, as, as a whole, as a,

7:44

as, you know, a body of believers. And

7:46

so the importance of isolation

7:49

and having community. I'm a

7:51

former small group pastor. So

7:53

you'll you'll hear a lot of that flavor in the book.

7:56

Uh, the importance of just being connected

7:59

in some fashion.

8:00

You know, that topic of shame

8:02

is one that I think comes up a lot

8:05

and a lot of believers, you know, we can

8:07

read Bible verses that address

8:09

shame. You mentioned condemnation.

8:11

And we can say, well, I know there's no condemnation

8:14

for those who are in Christ Jesus anymore. And

8:16

like you said, we can kind of intellectually

8:18

know that. But then shame is

8:21

very much a thing that can cause us to want to

8:23

isolate, he said. There's real shame

8:25

and used to something you said false

8:27

shame as well. And so for the person

8:29

listening this morning, Jim, who's saying, yeah,

8:31

I'm dealing with shame and that's causing me

8:33

to isolate, I don't want to do that anymore,

8:35

but I don't know what to do with this.

8:38

Yeah. How how do we

8:40

battle shame?

8:41

Yeah.

8:42

Well, it's important to understand there's

8:44

a difference between the conviction of the Holy Spirit

8:47

and condemnation. And

8:49

the best way I can, um,

8:52

understand the difference, Steve, is to

8:54

to realize that oftentimes the enemy,

8:57

when he condemns me, he will attack

8:59

my whole person. He will,

9:01

you know, take away my hope of

9:03

ever seeing victory and

9:05

conviction of the Holy Spirit when the when the Holy

9:07

Spirit convicts me. It's very

9:10

specific. You know, Jim, this

9:12

needs to change in your life. And

9:14

so that's one way we can identify

9:16

between that false condemnation and the

9:18

conviction of the Holy Spirit. Um,

9:21

just understanding that, you know,

9:23

condemnation wants the thief wants

9:25

to steal, kill and destroy. And

9:27

Jesus came that I might have life and have it

9:29

abundantly. So the thief, he wants

9:31

to steal our joy, our peace

9:34

and our hope. And so Romans

9:36

eight can really kind of help us recognize,

9:39

uh, reject and replace those lies.

9:42

Uh, I think one of the keys is continuing

9:44

to renew our minds with the truth.

9:46

I'm glad you mentioned renewing of minds,

9:49

because, you know, you actually

9:51

write about that. I think it's the third chapter of the book where

9:53

you talk about, in a sense, changing your

9:55

your thinking, because we have a thief

9:57

who is, uh, well, you call it the thief

9:59

of fixation. And so what

10:02

do you mean by that? And then where does the renewing of the mind

10:04

come into play here?

10:05

Yeah.

10:07

Well, to me, that third chapter is really

10:09

the key to understanding the entire chapter

10:11

because it's what we set our minds on,

10:13

you know, the mind set on the spirit.

10:16

Verse five is life and peace. The

10:18

mind set on the flesh is death.

10:20

And the word, you know,

10:22

repentance means to change your thinking,

10:24

metanoia. And and so

10:26

we have to continue to do that. I think,

10:29

you know, the good news of the gospel is

10:31

we can learn to change those

10:33

soundtracks that we've listened to

10:35

for so long. Um, you

10:38

know, and it's interesting that science

10:40

is now beginning to catch up with the Bible.

10:42

Uh, and they realize there's a term called

10:44

neuroplasticity, which means

10:46

you can actually change how you think.

10:49

In the best way to do that, I think,

10:51

is just continually saturating and

10:53

marinating your mind in the truth of

10:55

God's Word.

10:56

Yeah. Um, last thing I want

10:58

to touch on here before we have to go is

11:00

something that I think a lot of people may

11:03

kind of struggle with in this idea

11:05

is if I am living

11:07

a good and a godly life, then

11:09

God is going to bring blessing

11:11

into my life. But

11:14

if I'm experiencing a lot of suffering,

11:16

then that might be the result of of my

11:18

sinning. You address this as

11:20

as well. You call it the the thief of tribulation.

11:23

For the person who is in

11:25

a season of suffering right now, we're facing

11:27

trials and things are not going well.

11:30

And we're like, I, I'm struggling

11:32

because I'm not dealing with any

11:34

blatant known sin in my life.

11:37

Um, where does Romans eight help us with this?

11:40

Yeah, well, Paul.

11:41

Mentions the word grown three times.

11:44

He talks about creation, groaning

11:46

and longing for redemption, the

11:48

believers groaning, and then even

11:50

the Holy Spirit groans. And

11:53

you know, the word groan is the word stenos.

11:55

We get our word stenosis from

11:57

it, and it means to be in a narrow, confined

11:59

place. And I think we live

12:01

in a broken world and, you know,

12:04

we will face broken, uh, brokenness.

12:07

Uh, sometimes we suffer because of

12:09

our own choices. Sometimes we

12:11

suffer because of the choices of others.

12:13

And sometimes we suffer because

12:15

we we live in a fallen world.

12:17

And innocent people, good people,

12:20

God's people, uh, will

12:22

will suffer. Um, you know, I think

12:24

that, again, one of the

12:26

lies is that if we follow

12:29

Jesus, everything's going to be great, everything's

12:31

going to be wonderful, and we'll have the favor of

12:33

God on us. Well, I

12:35

think part of embracing Jesus is,

12:37

is, is suffering and

12:40

going through times. I've had many

12:42

pastors who I work with say, you know what, I

12:44

never want to go through that again. But I've never

12:46

been closer to God when

12:48

I went than when I went through that. So

12:51

yeah.

12:52

Jim Hanna joining us this morning talking about

12:54

using Romans eight to reject

12:57

the lies of the enemy. He's written the book

12:59

entitled Identity Theft. You

13:01

know, when we understand who we are

13:03

in Christ, that is

13:06

our identity makes all the difference.

13:08

I encourage you to check out, uh, Identity Theft,

13:10

written by Jim Hannah. You

13:13

know, I don't think anybody would argue with the fact

13:15

that we see a crisis in America

13:17

right now. There's a cultural decline

13:19

and cultural shift, and a lot of the people in

13:21

the church are saying, what do we do about

13:24

this? Eric Metaxas joining us to talk

13:26

a little bit about Religionless Christianity, God's

13:28

answer to evil. And, Eric,

13:30

we're going to jump right in here. You write in the book

13:33

that you think that Americans are in

13:35

this existential, uh, crisis

13:37

right now, and you're calling this a third

13:39

crisis. What

13:41

were the first two quickly here? And why

13:43

do you think we're facing such a big crisis

13:45

today?

13:47

Well, just to clarify, the

13:50

I wrote a book, letter to the American Church,

13:52

this new book, because

13:54

all of it really comes out of Bonhoeffer. The

13:56

parallels to where

13:59

the church was in Germany in the 30s

14:01

and where the church is in America

14:03

today. And the blame,

14:06

uh, if you look at the story of Bonhoeffer,

14:09

it goes directly to the Christians who did

14:11

not understand, could not read the season

14:13

and said, oh, we're not supposed to be political. Guess

14:15

what? Wrong. And it led to

14:17

hell on earth, certainly for

14:19

millions of Jews. So the parallel

14:22

is with Bonhoeffer and Letter to the American

14:24

Church. The new book, Religionless Christianity,

14:27

which is the sequel, is

14:29

a phrase from Bonhoeffer

14:31

and the phrase Religionless Christianity

14:34

is Bonhoeffer's way of saying we need a real

14:36

Christianity. Not just church, not

14:38

just religion, but the real

14:40

thing. And what I say in this book,

14:42

I lead this book by saying that we

14:44

are in a war. It is a spiritual war

14:46

without any doubt. It has its

14:49

analog in the political,

14:51

in the cultural. But at its heart, it's a spiritual

14:53

war. And the Lord looks to the church

14:55

and I say the three existential crises,

14:58

the one we're in right now and the previous two, the first

15:00

one is the American Revolution, existential

15:03

in the sense that if we had not won

15:05

and I say I see God's miraculous

15:08

hand in our victory in 1776

15:10

and onward, if we had

15:12

not won in the Civil War, the second existential

15:15

crisis in American history, um,

15:17

we wouldn't exist. We would not be in existence.

15:20

Hence the term existential. We are

15:22

now in the third existential

15:24

crisis. And the question is, will

15:27

the church in America understand

15:30

that the Lord calls his

15:32

people to stand and to fight,

15:34

to get political, not

15:36

to make an idol of politics,

15:38

but to understand the Lord has given us

15:41

the reins that that we

15:43

have the ability, by the grace of God in America.

15:45

We're not in first century Rome. Anybody wants to talk

15:48

about, oh, here's what Paul says. Well,

15:50

you have to read the context. To live

15:52

under Roman Empire

15:55

is not to have political agency.

15:57

We in America have been given this gift

15:59

of the ability to vote,

16:01

to advocate for politicians, even

16:04

to run ourselves. And we

16:06

now have to step up. The church missed

16:08

it big time in Germany

16:10

in the 1930s. It is a nightmare,

16:12

but we have to be honest with ourselves. If you think you're

16:14

any different than those in the church who missed

16:16

it in the 1930s, how are you reacting

16:18

today to the threats to our

16:21

existence? And again, it's not about

16:23

America. It's about God's purposes

16:26

for America. And so

16:28

we are now, without any doubt, uh,

16:30

in an existential crisis, we're facing

16:32

threats from within and without. In the

16:34

revolution, it was threats from without

16:36

in the, in the, uh, Civil war

16:39

threat from within. It is now from within

16:41

and without. We're dealing with globalist,

16:44

uh, Marxist atheism, which

16:46

is satanic. Uh, we have to be honest.

16:48

We have it. We've let it into our culture

16:50

in America. We've let it into the church.

16:53

Many, many, many churches, many evangelical

16:55

churches in America, uh, in fact, many

16:57

people listening right now are going to churches that

16:59

have let this in a little bit

17:02

or a lot, or maybe

17:04

they haven't let it in, but they're not exactly fighting

17:06

against it. Uh, and so this

17:08

book and the previous book, letter to the American Church,

17:10

are, uh, I believe, meant

17:13

to help folks understand what is the biblical

17:15

answer to where we are now. What is the job

17:17

of the church, as the Lord sees

17:19

it? Not as I see it, but as I. I

17:21

believe the Lord sees it. And what is biblical?

17:24

And so, Eric, as we

17:26

look at what we see going on

17:28

in culture right now, today, and we see,

17:31

um, a tendency for some Christians

17:33

to seemingly put

17:35

all their hope in politics, which

17:38

we know would be a mistake to do that.

17:40

We see other Christians saying, I want to avoid it completely.

17:43

Um, God is sovereign over all things. And if this

17:45

is the way that he's going to allow things to go, then I'm

17:47

just going to I mean.

17:48

That is such a lie. I have to interrupt.

17:50

I hear that I want to hear rankles me because

17:52

human beings will suffer when

17:54

the church gets this wrong.

17:57

Sure. And we see that, as you say. Let's

17:59

look back at Bonhoeffer. Let's look back at Nazi

18:01

Germany and what happened there. How

18:03

do you see, uh,

18:06

if we don't step up and

18:08

step in and engage right now, today,

18:10

where do you think the church is

18:12

going to allow culture to get to

18:14

if we don't get active now?

18:17

I mean any American Christian arrogant

18:19

enough to think that we cannot go down

18:21

the same satanic path that Germany did

18:24

is really simply

18:26

not understanding. So are you talking.

18:28

About elimination of.

18:28

A people group?

18:30

What's that? Are you talking about elimination of

18:32

a people group like getting so far?

18:34

Look, the devil's not stupid enough to do the

18:36

exact same thing twice. On the other hand,

18:39

it's always going to have Jew hatred at the

18:41

center. But. But the hatred of Jews

18:43

is the hatred of the people of God.

18:45

It's the hatred of God. So it will be

18:47

the hatred of Christians who stand

18:49

up for biblical things. You will be called

18:51

a Christian nationalist. You will be called names.

18:54

We have to stand for

18:56

God's purposes. The Lord doesn't call us to

18:58

a comfortable faith. He calls us to

19:00

real faith, which may cost us

19:02

our lives, may cost us our jobs, may cost

19:04

us our neighbor. Looking at us funny.

19:07

The Lord calls us to it. And by the way, it

19:09

should be joy for us to stand

19:11

for God in these times. And I just want

19:13

to say really clearly, the Germans who got

19:15

it wrong. There were many good German Christians

19:17

who got it wrong. There are many good American

19:19

Christians getting it wrong. Today I wrote

19:22

the book letter to the American Church and the sequel Religionless

19:24

Christianity, to try to wake up those who could

19:26

be awakened. And by the way, letter to the American Church

19:28

is a film anybody can watch it.

19:31

If you go to letter to the American

19:33

church.com that's being shown free

19:35

in many churches. Religionless Christianity,

19:37

the new book really unpacks.

19:39

It's sort of the how to how do we

19:41

navigate these religious, um,

19:44

uh, in a sense, the pitfalls.

19:46

Yeah. How can I be so religious that

19:48

I actually miss God, just as the Pharisees

19:50

did, just as the German Church did in the 1930s?

19:53

Well, when we come back in a few minutes, I want to come back

19:55

and get into some of those how to's

19:58

as we continue the conversation with Eric Metaxas,

20:00

author of Religionless Christianity

20:03

God's Answer to Evil.

20:06

Talk with Eric Metaxas this hour he's

20:08

written Religionless Christianity

20:11

God's Answer to evil. And Eric,

20:13

as we talk about your

20:15

call and really as you believe God's call

20:17

for the church to engage, what

20:19

do you think that actually looks like

20:21

for us to honestly engage

20:24

culture while putting feet to our faith?

20:26

What's the to do list?

20:28

Well, one of the things I don't say in the book religionless

20:30

Christianity, but which I could have said and should have

20:32

said probably, is that, um,

20:34

the devil always wants

20:36

to give us a safe substitute,

20:39

anything but the real thing.

20:41

So what is a religious substitute

20:43

that the devil would offer Christians,

20:46

faithful Christians, in place of

20:48

actually living out their faith in Jesus Christ? How

20:50

about a lot of Bible study?

20:52

Study the Bible, know the Bible?

20:54

Just a ton of toes. Eric.

20:57

Whatever you do, don't

20:59

live the Bible, the

21:01

Pharisees. It's very easy for us to dismiss the Pharisees.

21:03

They knew the Bible inside and out. Was that bad?

21:06

No, that was wonderful. Here was the problem.

21:08

Here was the problem. Better that they would have not

21:10

studied the Bible, then know the Bible inside and

21:12

out and not live it.

21:14

When Jesus about whom

21:17

it writes about to whom it points,

21:19

he shows up. What do they do?

21:22

They murder him. This is

21:24

the most perfect picture

21:26

of satanic religiosity.

21:28

To know the Word of God, to go to Bible

21:30

studies, to pride yourself on memorizing

21:32

scripture, on knowing Scripture, and when

21:34

the one who

21:37

the Scripture points comes to

21:39

murder him, that is the definition

21:42

of what Satan would have us to do. He's

21:44

not going to lure us into, you know,

21:46

uh, whatever strip clubs

21:48

and drugs. No, he's going to lure Christians into

21:51

this religious counterfeit. This is what

21:53

Bonhoeffer was trying to say. You're all

21:55

going to church, you're praising God. You're

21:57

singing these songs, you're reading the scripture. And

21:59

when it's the opportunity now God

22:01

says, now live it out as though

22:03

you actually believe it. They said, nah, not

22:06

so much. No, we don't think so. We'd prefer to keep singing

22:08

and keep studying. We don't want to live it out.

22:11

That is what the devil wants. That's

22:13

the devil's version of the Christian church.

22:15

And we have a lot of that in America today

22:17

to some extent. And again, we don't

22:19

have to act like, oh, that's not me. That's not.

22:21

Of course it is. We of

22:24

course the Lord wants us to acknowledge.

22:26

Yes, I've been getting this wrong, Lord, Lord, point

22:28

me in the right direction so that we don't continue

22:31

down this path. That's what repentance is.

22:33

And the German church got it too

22:35

late. And we saw the nightmare that

22:38

resulted from this incredibly Christian nation.

22:40

They were not pagans. They were Christians

22:42

who got this wrong. When it

22:44

came time to live their faith, they

22:47

opted for dead religion. They

22:49

opted for church versus being

22:51

the church. And I really think

22:53

that God called me to write the Bonhoeffer

22:55

book so that I myself would see this, that what's

22:57

the story of Bonhoeffer? It is about the story

23:00

of a Christian trying to get the

23:02

church to wake up, trying to get the church to

23:04

be the church. What do all the prophets

23:06

do in the Old Testament? They try to get the church

23:08

to be the church, try to get the people of God to be the

23:10

people of God. Jesus tried to get,

23:13

uh, the those who claim to

23:15

believe in his father, uh, to actually

23:17

live it out. But he says, your hearts are far

23:19

from me. You honor me with your lips. That's

23:21

always the temptation for religious

23:23

people. So Jesus didn't

23:25

rail against, uh, Hellenic

23:28

philosophy? Uh, he didn't rail

23:30

against paganism. He railed against

23:32

those who claimed to know

23:34

his father, who claimed to know the God

23:36

of the Scripture but did not.

23:38

And that really is always

23:40

that's the pinch point for people

23:43

who say, well, I go to church, I believe this, I believe the Bible,

23:45

and God says, do you? Well, now live

23:47

it. We are at that point in America. Things

23:50

have gotten so bad. I don't need to tell people we

23:52

have open borders. We have millions

23:54

of people flooding into our nation. We

23:56

don't have the ability even to say like, this

23:58

is who we are. Uh, as as a

24:00

country, we're letting fentanyl flood

24:03

in and kill, uh, hundreds

24:05

of thousands of people. We have

24:07

sex trafficking children. Young women

24:09

are being raped. We have drug gangs. That's just

24:11

the border. We have transgender

24:13

madness, destroying lives,

24:16

destroying families. Those are just two

24:18

things we have, uh,

24:20

the hatred of Jews on many campuses.

24:23

Uh pro-hamas groups can. Can you imagine?

24:26

Pro-hamas. That's worse than pro Nazis.

24:28

The Hamas sadistically

24:30

raped and murdered. That's

24:33

what has happened. And I believe it's the Lord

24:35

allowing us to see the beginnings

24:37

of what can happen if the church

24:40

doesn't step up and live

24:42

out its faith utterly.

24:44

We have the example in Germany. We

24:46

now have seen it here just a little

24:48

bit. This is only the beginning of

24:50

the horrors. But the Lord wants us to see that

24:53

no, it can get very, very

24:55

bad. Don't think it can't get bad because the Germans,

24:57

honestly, the German church never dreamt,

24:59

never dreamt that

25:02

their silence and inaction could lead

25:04

to the death camps could lead. To

25:06

something that they are bearing the

25:08

shame that they have exists today

25:11

for them, not stepping up when

25:13

it was their chance. And in the book I write about Martin Niemöller

25:15

classic, uh, story of this

25:17

friend of Bonhoeffer's who he got it

25:19

a little bit too late. And that's,

25:22

that's really the that's the lesson

25:24

for the church today. Church in America. Will

25:26

you get it? Will you believe that

25:28

that God wants you to get it, that it's not

25:30

about oh, we're under judgment. Let it go. We're just

25:32

we're you know. No, no, no, that's the that's

25:34

the that's the devil's voice too. It's over.

25:36

There's nothing you can do. Oh, we've killed so

25:38

many babies. Therefore we're under judgment. Therefore

25:40

do nothing. No,

25:43

no, let let these horrors exhort

25:45

us to do everything we can until

25:47

we see the Lord face to face. That's what the new book

25:50

is about. Religionless Christianity. The

25:52

previous book, letter to the American Church, is effectively about

25:55

the same thing in the film, of course, letter to

25:57

the American Church, uh, which people

25:59

can see at letter to the American Church. Com

26:01

attempts to do the same thing to wake up God's

26:03

people for such a time as this.

26:05

Yeah. Well, Eric, I appreciate you

26:08

letting your voice to this, that you're calling out the American

26:10

church to wake up. And as you wrote that

26:12

first book, um, the

26:14

letter to the American Church is such great

26:16

response for that, even, uh, Ebenezer saying

26:19

it's like a bucket of cold water thrown in the face

26:21

of a sleeping church. This book, the follow

26:23

up Religionless Christianity.