0:07

Hi, everyone. It's four o'clock

0:09

in New York big day of news.

0:12

The investigation into Donald Trump's handling

0:14

of government documents, including some

0:16

of the country's most sensitive national security

0:18

secrets is moving in important ways

0:20

on two fronts today. One involves

0:23

the decision to point a special master,

0:25

an independent arbiter, to review

0:27

the documents seized in the search of Marlago.

0:30

The other involves the special master

0:32

himself, a lot of news on both fronts

0:35

today. Let's start with DOJ's appeal of

0:37

the decision by judge Eileen Cannon,

0:39

temporarily blocking DOJ from using

0:41

the document seized from Donald Trump's residents.

0:44

That appeal is now before the eleventh Circuit

0:46

Court of Appeals. Donald Trump's lawyers

0:49

in that matter are calling for the

0:51

court to reject DOJ's request.

0:53

Their main argument is that DOJ has

0:55

yet prove that some of the record seized

0:57

are classified. Even though it

0:59

is dumb, Trump, who has not provided

1:02

a single shred of evidence

1:04

proving

1:04

that they're not, proving

1:06

that he declassified any of the records

1:08

that he kept at Mar Lago for up to eighteen months

1:10

Now to the other front, more immediate. The

1:12

special master process itself. Just

1:14

a couple hours ago, lawyers for the Justice

1:16

Department squared off with Donald Trump's

1:18

legal team for their first public hearing

1:21

before Judge Raymond Deerey. He's the

1:23

federal judge who was appointed special master

1:25

to review the documents seized in the

1:27

search Donald Trump's residence last month.

1:30

During this hearing, Deerey, who was

1:32

Donald Trump's pick, his hand

1:34

selected suggestion to be the special

1:36

master, told Donald Trump's

1:39

lawyers to put up or shut up on claims

1:41

that Trump declassified the records. Here's how

1:43

political describes the hearing. quote,

1:45

judge Raymond Deary pushed Trump's lawyers

1:47

repeatedly for refusing to

1:49

back up the former president's claim. that

1:52

he declassified the highly sensitive national

1:54

security related records discovered

1:56

in his residence, quote, you cannot

1:58

have your cake and eat it too,

1:59

said dairy. It's where

2:01

we begin today with some of our favorite reporters

2:03

and friends. Asharangapa is here.

2:05

She's a former FBI special agent focused

2:07

on counterintelligence investigations. She

2:10

is also an attorney and senior lecturer

2:12

at Yale University. With us at

2:14

the table, we have enough for a dinner

2:16

party finally. John and Lemir, political

2:18

is White House Bureau Chief and the host of MSNBC's

2:21

way too early. Ryan Goodman joins

2:23

us former special counsel at the defense

2:25

department, now an NYU law professor

2:28

and the Co Editor in Chief of Justice

2:30

Security and MSNBC Legal

2:32

Analyst Andrew Weisman is here. He's

2:34

also a professor at NYU and a former

2:37

department prosecutor. Most importantly,

2:39

though, for conversation, he was in the

2:41

room. He was at this afternoon's special

2:43

master hearing detail. So

2:46

let's start. We have some atmospheric

2:49

which is the hearing

2:51

was supposed to start at two o'clock, and at

2:53

two o'clock, judge Deere comes out on the

2:55

bench. Like, clock and that

2:57

is judge Deary. There's a real tradition

3:00

in the eastern districts that they are

3:02

responsible. They adhere to

3:04

rules and order It was a

3:06

prompt, efficient hearing.

3:08

It ended at two forty with

3:11

jury having given everyone an opportunity

3:13

to be heard, but he also so conducted

3:15

in. It was like an adult in the room and everyone

3:18

had to behave themselves. So that was sort of

3:20

the mischarEx and there were

3:22

with one exception, which we'll talk

3:24

about, there were no histrionics on

3:26

the part of either side. And

3:29

in terms of the merits.

3:31

The key is, you

3:34

know, it it really was put it put

3:36

up or shut up, but it was said in

3:38

a with a lot of children in

3:40

a judge theory way. Exactly. And

3:42

he, at the outset, made

3:45

it clear. He said, you may have

3:47

Trump team. You may have litigation

3:51

and strategy as to why you

3:53

don't want to tell me or the world

3:55

in a court of law that these documents

3:57

are classified. That's fine.

3:59

But if you don't do that, I

4:02

have in front of me a prima

4:04

fashion case, meaning that the the

4:07

the government has set forth sufficient

4:09

evidence that these are classified for

4:11

God's sake. They their markings that

4:13

say they're classified So he said, if you don't

4:15

want to actually say anything at this point,

4:18

that's fine, but I'm going to rule.

4:20

And that was really the theme

4:23

of the hearing. because at

4:25

some point when they started talking about

4:27

whether there would be a need

4:29

for people to actually have clearance

4:32

to see not just top secret

4:34

documents, but top secret compartment

4:36

and documents. So Jerry

4:38

said, you know, I may be able

4:40

to decide this issue where

4:42

I don't even need to see them. that

4:45

we don't have to get into that issue.

4:47

No. He didn't say that's what he's definitely

4:49

gonna rule. He wants to hear from the

4:51

parties, etcetera. but it seems pretty

4:53

clear in terms of his thinking

4:55

that he's going down the road of

4:57

if these are classified documents and I

4:59

have no contrary evidence then

5:01

that sort of leads to a

5:03

conclusion, which is I'm not returning these

5:06

documents to you. So

5:08

if you don't put up then

5:11

you're not gonna get the relief that you're seeking,

5:13

which is to have the documents return to you.

5:15

It also sounds like from what you're describing

5:17

is even if you do put up

5:19

then the process begins. Because

5:22

it sounds like the person

5:24

that Trump picked and there's some neat

5:26

reporting in Axios about why he thought

5:28

he would go his way. It's

5:31

sick and twisted and very trampy. But

5:34

he suffices a judge. He knows exactly

5:36

what we're talking about. talk

5:38

about what the sort of difference?

5:40

You talked about the atmosphere, but what's the difference

5:42

in terms of the legal arguments being made in

5:44

front of a judge like Judge Deary as opposed

5:46

to Aileen? cannon.

5:48

Well, here's an example that goes to

5:50

exactly what you're saying. He said,

5:52

let's assume that these documents are

5:54

presumptively classified. he

5:56

wasn't gonna go ahead and make a ruling.

5:58

He said, it is the

5:59

obligation of the government

6:02

to

6:02

make sure that these are not shown

6:05

to people needlessly. That

6:07

is their obligation. That is

6:09

a completely different mindset

6:11

than when they

6:13

were in Florida. And, you know, Mike, it's for you.

6:15

This is, like, they're you're not in Florida anymore.

6:18

So, you know, that you are now,

6:20

and say, hey, been in Florida. This is in

6:22

Florida. I wanna ask you about the

6:24

exception. What was the exception when

6:26

things did when they were histrionics. Yep.

6:28

So it's some point, there

6:30

was a discussion about whether

6:33

the judge would consult with

6:35

the national archives narrow. and

6:37

the government had submitted in its letter

6:40

sort of a one line saying we really

6:42

encourage you to do so. Not a lot of meat

6:44

on the balance about why and

6:47

Jim Trustee, the frankly,

6:49

the only lawyer who spoke

6:51

for the former president, who, by the way,

6:53

he kept on describing as the

6:55

president and saying he's the

6:57

president's lawyer. He

7:02

that the one time I was waiting

7:04

to see what Judge Deary would do because

7:07

he went on a political attack

7:09

of the archives. He

7:12

talked about them being a political entity.

7:15

The archives. In how should archives? That's like

7:17

saying it's a political entity. Like,

7:19

my my public library is a

7:21

political entity. they

7:23

see he seemed to equate what Sandy

7:25

Berger did to being the

7:27

archives fault that they wanted

7:29

those documents to be taken. And

7:32

so the argument was

7:34

that the judge

7:36

should not be consulting with such

7:38

an overt political body

7:41

as the national archives. Judge

7:44

Deere basically said,

7:47

I don't actually see the need right

7:49

now to consult with them. So this is

7:51

a moot conversation. But in his

7:54

again, his very polite way. He said, of course,

7:56

I do think, you know, you might be painting

7:58

with a broad brush there. Oh, wow.

8:00

Which was his his way. I mean,

8:02

Judge Jiri is no full. He knows

8:04

exactly what's going on. He

8:07

called them out in a an adult

8:09

way. But that's the one place

8:11

where I thought that Jim Traci

8:13

was not reading the room and decided he

8:15

was gonna go on a planned

8:17

diatribe that clearly was coming from his

8:19

client.

8:20

Tell me what each side for

8:23

the DOJ side, you know, one who was

8:25

there? Is it a name that we recognized from

8:27

the filings that we've seen? And what did they

8:29

argue? And what what did they want out

8:31

of this hearing? And then and then do the same for me,

8:33

for the other side? Yeah. Great question.

8:35

So there were five lawyers from

8:37

the government. One of the

8:39

lawyers was from the tainted

8:41

team. which was necessary because the

8:43

judge needed to hear what the team was

8:45

doing. Explain that. The filter team is the

8:47

same thing. Exactly. This is the filter

8:49

team that had called out

8:51

things that were potentially

8:54

attorney client privilege. And so there

8:56

was a report from that

8:58

lawyer saying that you know,

9:00

I separately have pulled out that

9:02

information. We have given it to

9:04

the Trump team already. Mhmm.

9:06

We're creating an inventory of that.

9:08

We they handed the inventory actually

9:10

up to the judge, right, in

9:12

court. So the judge was very pleased. He

9:14

said that it's great to see progress being

9:16

made as the judge said he

9:18

wants to act with a responsible dispatch.

9:22

And maybe one backdrop to

9:24

this is that what we learned

9:26

today is that it was Judge

9:28

Deary who had proposed a

9:30

four week schedule, not until the

9:32

end of November, but four

9:34

weeks That was faster, just to be

9:36

clear, that was faster than what the government

9:38

had proposed because the government's

9:40

letter had talked about coming back in a few

9:42

weeks with progress reports. Mhmm. And it's

9:44

pretty clear Judge Deere does not see

9:46

this as complicated, but this is

9:48

just not that big a deal.

9:50

anyway, going back to your point, the

9:52

government wanted to report on the

9:54

progress of the team team. They get the so

9:56

called attorney client information.

9:59

And there was very little

10:02

that the government otherwise had to

10:04

do other than sort of report

10:06

about having a vendor at certain

10:08

mechanical things. Mhmm. The

10:10

main person speaking was Julie Edelstein,

10:12

and I I actually don't think any of the other

10:14

lawyers really spoke of any really

10:16

substance. She was

10:18

asked by the court

10:20

about what happens if the eleven circuit

10:22

doesn't grant a stay. And

10:24

interestingly, she said, we

10:27

will have to get back to you because I'm

10:29

confident we'll be looking at other

10:31

appellate options. Wow.

10:33

Means the supreme

10:35

court. So DOJ is preparing to

10:37

appeal to the United States supreme court if they fell in

10:39

the eleventh circuit? Well, they didn't she didn't

10:42

quite come out and say that, but, you know,

10:44

it was hard to keep deuce. Yes. It

10:46

was it was flat here. What she

10:48

was saying is this is

10:50

so important to the department

10:52

that I'm not sure we'll leave it there.

10:54

Honestly, they would have to see the decision -- Right. -- like

10:56

an evaluation, but I thought that was

10:58

notable and it was basically telling

11:01

Judge Deere, don't count

11:03

on this being if there if the eleven circuit

11:05

rules against us, don't count on this

11:07

being over so quickly.

11:09

So that was basically it from

11:11

the government side. Jim trustee

11:13

did all of the talking for

11:15

the Trump team And,

11:19

you know, he had a a tough

11:21

tough cell here. You

11:23

know, he was doing something that It's very

11:25

typical of lawyers

11:28

in a criminal case, and that

11:30

is delay. It's famously

11:33

been said by Edward Williams,

11:35

that in a criminal case for a

11:37

defense lawyer, an adjournment

11:39

is an acquittal. And

11:41

so, you know, this is not new

11:43

to Judge Deary, which is Jim

11:46

Trusty kept on saying everything is

11:48

premature. We need more time.

11:50

It's gonna take a lot of time. And if

11:52

everything that was being proposed, he kept

11:54

on saying, well, I think it's gonna take longer.

11:56

It it's very clear

11:58

Nigeria is not gonna have any of

12:00

that. Nigeria made it clear

12:02

after he heard from both of the parties

12:04

about the his proposed schedule.

12:06

That is the court's proposed schedule. He is

12:08

going to issue an order. And

12:11

that's, you know, Nigeria is now pushover. He

12:13

is going to have an order. It's he's gonna

12:15

expect everyone to adhere to it and make

12:17

rulings. So I think that's what

12:19

he was he the court was trying to get out

12:21

of this. And just

12:21

one more question, just to make sure

12:23

I understand the process and what was on the

12:25

line today for the government.

12:28

if

12:29

his ruling is

12:31

to sort of express satisfaction

12:33

with the work of the filter team or the

12:35

tank team, does the

12:37

investigation, the criminal investigation, and the

12:39

national security damage assessment

12:41

proceed in that four week schedule? Is it best

12:43

case scenario those four weeks or

12:45

or or how long we wait until the

12:47

criminal investigation to Trump and the National

12:49

Security Assessment can proceed? I

12:51

think it there is a

12:53

potential for being even faster. I would

12:55

say if Judge

12:58

Deere adheres to the four weeks, I'd

13:00

say that's the worst case scenario. Oh,

13:02

wow. That he is contemplating

13:04

that from his perspective, it

13:06

will be done. Now it is important to

13:08

remember that whoever is the losing

13:10

side and potentially they're losing

13:12

each site could have something they wanna gripe

13:14

about. They get to go back

13:16

to Florida. and judge

13:18

Cannon gets to, you know,

13:20

consider those issues. I have to

13:22

say, I've always thought with

13:24

judge Cannon subcontracting this

13:27

to a senior respected

13:29

article three judge. I think it

13:31

would put a lot of pressure on her

13:33

if she was thinking of reversing

13:35

his rulings because no he's

13:37

a kind of judge that no matter which way

13:39

he rules, we're gonna be thinking there's a

13:41

lot of merit to it. And

13:42

she selected him ultimately.

13:45

Right? Exactly. She

13:47

selected him perhaps because he was on

13:49

a list provided by Donald Trump.

13:51

There's some interesting reporting in

13:53

Axios about why Donald Trump might have liked

13:55

him. Quote,

13:57

lawyers and advisers to the president believed

13:59

Derry's role on the secretive court that approved

14:02

controversial warrants used

14:03

to surveil former Trump campaign aid

14:05

Carter Page in sixteen and seventeen.

14:08

made DIRI a deep skeptic of the

14:10

FBI.

14:11

DIRI was one of the judges who signed off on

14:13

the Pfizer warrants to a surveillance page. Two of

14:15

the four approved warrants were later declared

14:17

invalid. invalid after a

14:19

DOJ IG report found a series

14:21

of the statements and ambitions in the FBI's

14:23

applications to get the warrants. Trump's

14:25

lawyers are

14:26

betting that made Deere

14:28

more skeptical, the FBI, than

14:30

an average judge in a way that

14:32

endures beyond the page case. I

14:35

think that this could be seen

14:38

as delusional and

14:41

strange. Now, this is a team though that

14:43

found Aileen Cannon. So tell me how

14:44

team Trump's judicial

14:47

form shopping is going in your

14:49

scorecard. So I think they've

14:51

royally backfired on themselves.

14:53

But dairy, with dairy. I mean, dairy's

14:56

judge's judge, and we're refreshingly

14:58

back in a form that looks and

15:00

smells and tastes like the rule of law. and

15:02

a judge running a courtroom in the right way.

15:05

So their speculation based on the

15:07

Carter page, Pfizer applications

15:09

is bit nutty and that they could, in

15:11

fact, generalize from that to think that he has

15:13

now a disposition against the FBI

15:15

in such a way. And he's obviously

15:17

not that kind of a character. I think he's just abiting

15:19

by the law, and he's very sensible in

15:21

his understanding of national security

15:23

concerns and expediting this process. I'm

15:25

sure that's also weighing on him. So

15:27

I think the idea of Deary

15:29

is actually a fantastic

15:31

favor in a certain sense to the rule of law that

15:33

we'll see how this operates

15:35

under his care But as Andrew

15:37

says, then it goes back to

15:39

judge Cannon, and she could overrule

15:41

him. She has that power. But

15:43

right now, I think things are not on the

15:46

right track. Let's put it that way.

15:47

And what happened today?

15:50

Are the ReAssures you or Troublesio?

15:52

So I

15:52

think the part that reassures me the most

15:54

is that he gets it. on the classified

15:57

information. He's not giving

15:59

the Trump side any

16:02

excuses in a certain sense that it is time

16:04

for them to pony up. If they

16:06

wanna make a claim that they declassified any

16:08

of these records, they can do it.

16:10

But if they don't wanna do that, then he has

16:12

to. He has to default to

16:14

the judgment of the intelligence

16:16

community that they've already put classified markings

16:18

in all these documents. Any other judge in America, I

16:20

think we did the exact same thing, essentially.

16:22

which is, say, this information is classified unless you

16:24

wanna come and tell me that you did

16:26

something different and I think they don't. I you

16:28

know, it seems as though they don't wanna ever make

16:30

that claim in a court of law where they would

16:32

be subject to penalties and

16:34

federal crimes of lying to a

16:36

court. So I think that's the most sensible thing.

16:38

And then as Andrew says, we have this four week

16:40

scheduled, but One other benefit of the

16:42

order from Judge Cannon is that she said that

16:44

he has to prioritize the hundred

16:46

classified documents. So if he does

16:48

that, he issues an interim ruling, she

16:50

she also gave him the power to do that. We

16:52

could put the criminal investigation

16:54

back on its footing, and we could put the

16:56

intelligence damage assessment back in its

16:58

footing with respect to the one hundred classified documents, and

17:00

that would be really important

17:02

for US National Security. That is the urgency of

17:04

the current situation.

17:06

Ashu, when I think back to the

17:09

alarm that was

17:11

felt by every single

17:13

sort of anyone that

17:14

had ever touched any part of US national

17:17

security, their military, or

17:19

FBI, or DOJ, or

17:21

CIA, and in talking about

17:23

these these lags, this this inability

17:25

to proceed with the criminal criminal case,

17:27

which is inextricably linked

17:29

in the national security implications for

17:32

the country. I wonder

17:34

your reaction to

17:36

today's development and

17:38

not that they're dueling, but these two

17:40

judges that are now the prominent figures

17:42

in the matter judge Deere and

17:44

and judge

17:46

Eileen Cannon. Yes, Nicole.

17:48

I think what we're seeing is

17:50

just the importance of a judge

17:52

who not only understands the

17:54

law, but is willing to apply it. I

17:56

mean, you can only imagine if in the genuine in the post

17:59

election cases, if

18:01

judges had been willing to entertain

18:03

unfounded assertions of voter fraud

18:05

I mean, we would have gone down the crazy

18:08

rabbit holes that that we saw

18:10

judge can go down. And here, we

18:12

have national security issues

18:14

at stake. And I think one of the big miscalculations

18:17

the Trump team has made is

18:19

that precisely by virtue of being

18:21

on the Fisah Court. Remember, the

18:23

Fisah Court is created in

18:25

recognition of the fact that the

18:27

executive branch has national

18:29

security obligations that are

18:31

so important that they

18:33

can even override certain

18:35

civil liberties concerns that this balancing

18:37

act can tip in the government's favor.

18:40

This is what Deary understands. this

18:42

is the mindset that he is going

18:44

into as he's approaching

18:47

this. I think that it

18:49

doesn't he raised the critical

18:51

importance of the time needed

18:53

to actually interview

18:55

witnesses, find out who these

18:57

documents could have been disclosed to

19:00

And what potential, you know, might be

19:02

what documents might still be missing,

19:05

for

19:05

example, that could still be

19:07

exposed But I think

19:09

Leary understands that and hopefully we'll move forward

19:11

quickly. Howard

19:11

Bauchner: I want to turn to the criminal case

19:14

against Donald Trump. There's some

19:16

interesting reporting today.

19:18

by Maggie Abramsman in the New York Times

19:20

that again goes to Trump's

19:22

knowledge that what he was doing was illegal

19:24

at the time. one of those

19:27

elusive pieces of the Trump puzzle

19:29

for the six prior

19:31

investigations we've all covered together.

19:34

The time is supreme that. So one time White House lawyer

19:36

under Donald Trump warned him

19:38

late last year that Trump could face

19:41

legal life ability. If he did not return government materials, he

19:43

had taken with him when he left office.

19:45

It's according to three people. The lawyer

19:47

Eric Hirschman sought to impress

19:49

upon Trump the seriousness of the

19:51

issue and the potential for investigations

19:53

and legal exposure if you did not return the

19:55

documents, particularly any

19:58

classified material.

19:58

Trump, thank Hirschman for

19:59

the discussion. Can just picture

20:01

that right? Good talk. But

20:04

was noncommittal about his

20:06

plans

20:06

for returning the documents. people

20:08

familiar with the conversation said. So he

20:10

said, you know, you say tomato, I say tomato,

20:12

I'm keeping it, but he was warned and that is

20:14

on the record and that is now a win

20:16

this at

20:16

the disposal of the Department of Justice. Yeah. I

20:19

imagine it was an abrupt goodbye from the former

20:21

president there. Hershman, of course, he's working the White

20:23

House. He's a name and face probably familiar with a lot of viewers we

20:25

saw from him during the January sixth committee

20:27

testimony who spoke then as well. But this is

20:29

this is another piece of evidence, another, as you say,

20:32

possible witness. for DOJ as they pieced

20:34

together that Trump knew

20:35

that he had

20:36

material he should not have had and he hung on to

20:38

it anyway. Now this can't be part of any one

20:40

of the originator they've thrown so many stories

20:42

and excuses up against the wall, one of which being, oh,

20:44

other people threw stuff in boxes, the the former president

20:47

didn't even know it was in there. Well, it's clear that he has

20:49

now been warned by a reputable person. that in

20:51

fact, you have material, you should not have, you should have

20:53

classified material. He should not have had

20:55

that at any point.

20:57

And adds to a case that is

20:59

painstakingly being built, one delayed now,

21:01

briefly. It seems like because of what's happening

21:03

with the special master, but perhaps not that

21:05

long. And I think from the DOJ's perspective,

21:07

doesn't change their timetable that much. We do not know if there will

21:09

be an indictment. We do not. But all

21:11

along, the sense has been that it would be after midterm

21:13

elections that even though

21:15

Trump is not himself on the ballot that

21:17

they would adhere to that sixty day

21:20

guideline to not have any sort of overtly who could

21:22

be perceived as an overtly political

21:24

prosecution because Trump is still sort of dominant figure in the Republican party.

21:26

That doesn't seem to change here.

21:28

And that this is just another piece

21:30

that even if Trump's lawyers are successful

21:32

in bogging this down a little bit when that's been their go to

21:35

attack throughout delay delay delay.

21:37

Those delays in the other game may not help

21:39

very much. yeah, I I wanna ask

21:39

all of you about the criminal investigation

21:42

and what happens to that on the other side of

21:44

Derry. I have to sneak in a quick break.

21:46

No one's going anywhere when we come back as we've been

21:48

discussing much more on this

21:50

investigation, the Marlago investigation, and that

21:52

warning we're talking about from air

21:54

kirschman plus A CRIMINAL INVESTIGATION

21:56

HAS BEEN OPEN INTO HOW THE GOVERNOR

21:58

FLORIDA MOVED HUMAN BEINGS

21:59

FROM TEXAS TO FLORIDA AND INTO

22:02

MASSACHUSITS. WHAT CRIMES HE MIGHT

22:04

HAVE COMMITTED news that apparently

22:06

he's done it again today.

22:08

Later in the program, the definitive account

22:10

of how dangerous and how insane Trump's

22:12

time in the White House was

22:14

and the grave danger he poses today.

22:18

Superstar reporters and coauthors Peter

22:20

Baker and Susan Glasser will be our guest.

22:22

All those stories and more when deadline White House

22:24

can news after quick breaks. Don't go

22:27

anywhere.

22:42

WE'RE BACK WITH

22:44

EVERYONE. EVAN WEISSMAN,

22:46

TALK ABOUT THE CRIMINAL

22:49

INVESTIGATION AND AGAIN, THE NON

22:51

LAWYERS have sort of two tracks in the same way we talked about.

22:53

The Mueller investigation, the the

22:55

coordination and collusion pong

22:57

and the obstruction pong.

22:59

It feels like we talk about this with the criminal investigation as

23:01

well. There are the acts. Thanks to

23:03

the Mueller report. We know there's the act and then

23:05

there's the nexus with an obstructive

23:08

active it feels like what public facing is

23:10

filling out all of those boxes

23:12

to check as well. Howard Bauchner: Yeah, so with

23:14

the Hirschman reporting,

23:17

the reason if I were

23:19

still in the government, I'd be sitting there going, this is a

23:21

great additional piece. Is

23:23

we know about a lot of

23:25

circumstantial evidence -- Mhmm. -- that

23:28

helps prove the defendants,

23:31

which case this is Trump, his

23:34

knowledge and intent that is gonna be

23:36

critical. You need to have proof beyond a reasonable

23:38

doubt. There's lots of circumstantial evidence

23:40

like how did all these documents get

23:42

there that they returned that there were lies being told

23:45

that they had been returned. But you're

23:47

looking for what actually

23:49

did Donald Trump know?

23:52

So having a former

23:54

White House counsel

23:57

saying I told him

24:00

that why classified information has to

24:02

go back to the archives, that they're not

24:04

yours, that they're criminal

24:06

penalties, and there could be investigations resulting

24:08

from that. is devastating

24:10

evidence. That is exactly what you're

24:12

looking for because you wanna be able to tell

24:14

the jury what was in the mind and

24:16

how you can sort of infer from these

24:18

what's in the mind of your

24:21

defendant. So this is really

24:23

strong evidence. I, perhaps, say, I

24:25

strongly suspect that he is not the only

24:27

lawyer. Yeah. We've heard about

24:29

Patzelony going into the grand jury and being

24:31

interviewed the same thing with Pat Philbin. There's

24:33

sort of the White House Council and this sort of

24:35

deputy White House council, they were

24:37

actually nominated

24:40

by the former president to be the

24:42

former president's representatives to

24:44

the archives. So they clearly

24:46

are not gonna sort of be run

24:48

over the bus by Donald Trump. They're gonna be

24:50

saying we tried to do

24:52

our job. So I suspect that

24:54

is exactly what the government is

24:56

pulling together to help prove

24:58

that knowledge, that really critical knowledge

25:00

-- Indeed. -- and yep. It

25:01

doesn't hurt that after Cassidy

25:04

Hutchinson, mister Hirschman is the best

25:06

witness that we've seen from Trump's

25:08

inner circle, you know, laced with

25:10

plenty of left bombs and you gotta be

25:12

kidding me. He almost looked at the clowns around

25:14

Trump, including Trump at the

25:16

same sort of discuss normal people do.

25:18

Talk about the power of air kirschman as

25:20

a witness. Howard Bauchner: So I think we've seen

25:21

it. He's credible He's

25:25

obviously very reliable because his information

25:27

is being corroborated by other witnesses in

25:29

the January six hearings. And

25:31

it's a powerful witness because he, in fact, serve

25:33

Donald Trump. And he also had

25:36

his lines that he drew with January six, saying

25:38

this was over the limit. And we know

25:40

also from Maggie Hirschman's recording,

25:43

that just her penultimate piece about him is

25:45

that he also said, with respect to the current

25:47

crew that are surrounding Trump,

25:50

he had he didn't take their bowl in a

25:52

certain sense because they were trying to constrain his

25:54

testimony before the grand jury.

25:56

And he said, look, you guys are

25:58

just off base with this. I'm

26:00

not gonna I'm not gonna be put between you and the

26:02

justice department. Right. Right. And

26:04

I thought that was also very important because it means

26:06

that he's cooperating with the justice

26:08

department when they come calling as seems as he's

26:10

cooperated with the January sixth committee. So I think he

26:12

could be very powerful, and

26:14

the timing of the interaction that he

26:16

has with Trump is really important.

26:18

It's right at the end of twenty twenty

26:20

one and back to Maggie

26:22

Hayberman has heard in her reporting as well.

26:24

It's right around that time that Trump himself goes

26:26

through the boxes that they

26:28

then return some of the materials to the

26:31

national archives. So I think that that's very

26:33

incriminating. Howard Bauchner: When you think

26:34

about sort of the degree of

26:38

I mean, I guess, Trump's hands are always in the proverbial

26:40

cookie jar. But as you see these high

26:42

level legal figures popping up in

26:44

these multiple criminal investigations,

26:47

what do you

26:47

think their degree of alarm is? Rising

26:49

and dramatically. My colleagues and I wrote just last

26:51

couple of days on exactly this. It's

26:54

big names like Hirschman coming forward. It's also

26:56

those dozens of subpoenas that went out about

26:58

a week or so back, a few people having their

27:00

phones seized. Mhmm. We've reported that there's

27:02

a lot of people in Trump's orbit who

27:04

have suddenly gone dark, who have gone quiet,

27:07

text chains have gone silent, you know, people who

27:09

used to all work for the four president together. There

27:11

always been a sense of invincibility, that,

27:13

you know, he managed to escape, you know, one legal

27:16

instrument after another, one political instrument

27:18

after another, and

27:20

that this felt different than

27:22

did feel like the walls were closing in, and it's

27:24

also in Georgia. It's in New York --

27:26

Mhmm. -- but, of course, Department of Justice.

27:28

And there is a sense that Trump

27:30

circle has grown very, very

27:32

small. It's just that there's a few people

27:34

around the four president who he

27:36

relies on, who trust at this point,

27:38

most of whom, including people who used to be some of

27:40

his close advisors, Jack Christian von Kitchum,

27:43

no longer in that orbit at

27:45

all. Mhmm. and there's real worry here that

27:47

people aren't sure what a trust. We all remember

27:49

about a week or so back before president was

27:51

seen spotted landing at Dallas Airport in

27:53

Washington. It turned out he was just gonna go see golf

27:55

course. But at that moment, it wasn't just

27:57

the Liberals on Twitter who were hoping wishing that

27:59

that was Trump headed for DOJ. Many in

28:01

Trump's orbit thoughts so too. They now feel like that

28:03

if this bill is gone, waiting for other shoes

28:05

to drop.

28:06

It's funny that we still talk around, like, he's normal.

28:08

Like, like, he just replaced all those old

28:10

people with the QAnon crowd, you know, Saturday night.

28:12

Like, it's I mean, like, do they do they

28:14

Do they think they're missed? I mean, does anyone

28:17

feel like this is different in terms of

28:19

they might actually get caught for participating

28:21

criminal acts? Or do they feel like they've been cast

28:23

aside by

28:23

by a new a little bit of both. Like, there

28:26

are some people who served blindly

28:28

the former president who were in their style, who

28:30

still think that they were doing the

28:32

right thing. for him or in their country. And we most of us in his head would

28:34

disagree with that. But that's how's that

28:36

proceeding. That's Yeah. Of course. I've seen. It's

28:38

the Jason Miller's of the world who are who are so

28:40

they're C band and you're sending in one foot in

28:42

and out repeatedly. And others,

28:44

of course, recognize that they had been cast aside, some

28:46

of whom chose to leave because January

28:48

sixth, others in the months That's like

28:51

Cassidy Hutchins andals. Yeah. Exactly

28:53

right. And then you have there

28:55

is a growing sense, though, with the adults

28:57

out of the room. And this is so key also to happened after

28:59

the election. Between election and January sixth, so

29:01

many of those adult figures to who are

29:03

left departed. Does it look for

29:06

new jobs? there's been a COVID outbreak in White House. People were not

29:08

there, and that vacuum was

29:10

filled by Rudy Giuliani and Cindy Powell and

29:12

Michael Flynn. And it's that sort of thing that's

29:14

happening again. Those are the characters the

29:16

only characters left around the foreign president. How do you evaluate

29:18

the criminal exposure of these sort

29:20

of dead enders? So,

29:23

you know, one of the things you do

29:25

when you're a criminal prosecutor is you

29:27

look for people as you're going up the

29:30

chain, you know, this is when

29:32

we were doing Paul Manafort, we saw,

29:34

oh, wait, there's protests, there's constant in

29:36

context. We look for people who are around

29:39

the person and you think would they be

29:41

the duty of criminal exposure? Can you build a

29:43

case on them? And then can you flip

29:45

them? So, you know, obviously, Mark

29:47

Meadows is is, you know, right

29:49

in the left side. Right?

29:51

That there's so much that he

29:53

has to decide as we used to say

29:55

which side of the v he's gonna be on, which

29:57

is the United States versus is he gonna be

29:59

on the United States side as a cooperator or is

30:01

he gonna be on the dependent side? And the

30:04

the one other thing I think it's

30:06

really important a note is and and it's hard not to

30:08

read this in light of what's going

30:10

on, is Merrick Garland gave an

30:12

incredibly powerful speech at

30:14

Ellis Island on

30:16

Saturday. It was very emotional.

30:18

It clearly resonated with him

30:20

personally given his history. And as he talked

30:22

about also his wife's history, and

30:25

he went out of his way to talk about

30:27

the rule of law and how there's

30:29

one rule for everyone. It

30:33

to me, that means

30:35

that assuming they

30:37

build a case where there is enough

30:39

evidence to charge Donald

30:41

Trump, that America Merrill Lynch is gonna be looking at the

30:43

precedent within the department for

30:45

charging people in this circumstance. We're

30:48

very aware of of those

30:50

circumstances. And I just think that is

30:52

going to be determinative. It

30:54

was I thought it was hard to listen

30:56

to that speech and not know

30:58

what he was saying is I am going to

31:00

because I believe it in my core.

31:02

It's fundamental to this

31:05

country to get this right and to

31:07

make this decision. And it doesn't

31:09

matter that he is the former president. It

31:11

was like the anti judge canon.

31:13

I am not going to give him

31:15

more on this determination. And God knows

31:17

he has given him a lot of rope in

31:19

terms of in any way. But on the decision

31:21

to charge, I took that

31:24

as a real message that he

31:26

had the backbone and it was sort of

31:28

core to what he thought was important to

31:31

this country.

31:31

The pain cannot I mean, it's so hard to

31:33

deduce where the where the pain and emotion is coming

31:35

from. But, Aasha, when you when you look

31:38

at these three now very

31:41

active pillars of just what's public facing. You

31:43

know, we don't know what we don't know in terms of

31:45

what conduct of of the xpresences

31:47

under investigation. and you look at all pressures

31:49

bearing down on on this one

31:51

attorney general, how did you hear that speech?

31:55

I agree

31:56

with with Andrew.

31:59

And, you know, I think that what we saw

32:01

today with Judge Deere

32:03

was an application that

32:05

principle, there is one law. Trump was

32:07

being treated as

32:09

anyone else would. And just

32:11

to make a connection when we were talking

32:13

earlier about the investigations with January

32:15

sixth, I do think that it's important

32:17

to look at Trump's arguments in

32:19

the Mar a Lago case as

32:22

really an extension of

32:24

the big lie that led to

32:26

January sixth. I mean, we think these are

32:28

discrete investigations, but the through

32:30

line between them is that

32:33

Trump continues to assert that he

32:36

has equal presidential

32:39

power to the current sitting president.

32:42

And that is the argument that he's

32:44

making. That is an argument that

32:46

unfortunately was actually

32:48

entertained to some degree by

32:50

a sitting judge. And at

32:53

some point, I think with Merritt

32:55

Garland, he's going to have

32:58

to, you know, assert that Trump isn't above the

33:00

law. And and that the laws applied

33:02

to him, like anyone else. And by the way,

33:04

that the current executive branch

33:05

is the current executive branch, and

33:08

that HE IS NOW PERSON. Ian:

33:10

ASHA, THAT IS SO IMPORTANT AND SO

33:12

PROFOUND AND IT IS SO HARDwired INTO

33:15

THE MESSAGEING to his followers. I

33:17

mean, the fact that Trump's lawyer was

33:19

in Judge Derry's courtroom today referring

33:21

to Trump as the president is not

33:23

an accident. That's what Trump needs as

33:25

followers to hear. And the legal

33:27

arguments that sound asinine to

33:29

even someone like me who's never gone within

33:31

six inches of a law school classroom

33:33

sound totally reasonable to Trump supporters

33:35

if you believe that he's the actual

33:38

president,

33:38

the actual executive.

33:41

What do you what do you make at the stakes of not just what's

33:43

in front of Judge Deary, but

33:45

what's in front of DOJ?

33:49

Well, I think just

33:50

from what we know,

33:52

we are at a moment in our

33:54

history where we really have to walk the

33:56

walk that no one no man is above

33:59

the law. you know, the closest we've

33:59

come before this was Richard

34:02

Nixon. And in that case, there was

34:04

at least some appearance of

34:06

contrition and remorse

34:08

and and consequence that

34:10

he you know, after he stepped down, there's been no

34:12

consequence here. And so what does

34:14

at stake is really not just the

34:16

accountability to Trump, but really

34:18

the message it sends to the people coming after him.

34:20

I really think that there is a

34:23

mold that is being formed of people

34:25

who are taking notes and

34:28

wanting to follow in these footsteps. And so that

34:30

that's what's at stake. And what we don't

34:32

know is really the damage

34:34

that this may have caused

34:37

to to our national security. As Andrew points out, you

34:40

know, periodically on Twitter,

34:42

we still don't know why he took these

34:44

documents and what he did with them or plan to

34:46

do with them. I mean, it's now

34:48

been almost two months.

34:50

And we're still wait to hear that. And that I think

34:52

is gonna be explosive potentially

34:54

if if we're able to ever find

34:56

that out. Alright. Because

34:57

Andrew and Asha have talked about it,

34:59

we found the sound from Eric Garland.

35:01

From the weekend, we'll play that for you

35:03

after a quick break. I'm trying to

35:05

ring up at Jonathan Lemira. Thank you so much for starting

35:07

us off on a day like today. Ryan and

35:09

Andrew stick around. We will be

35:12

right

35:12

back.

35:34

The rule of law means that

35:36

the law treats each

35:39

of us alike. There is

35:41

not one rule for friends,

35:44

another for pros, one

35:46

rule for the powerful, another

35:49

for the powerless. one

35:53

rule for the rich, another

35:55

for the poor, the rule

35:57

of law is not assured.

35:59

It is fragile. It demands

36:02

constant effort and vigilance.

36:06

The responsibility

36:08

to ensure the rule of law

36:10

is and has been the duty of every generation in

36:13

our country's history. It

36:15

is now your duty.

36:19

as well. Wow.

36:20

It was powerful. Joining

36:23

our conversation, joy spans from Rios

36:25

Attorney and a Law Proposal at

36:27

the University of Alabama. lucky for us,

36:29

an MSNBC legal analyst. Andrew Weisman, you called up that sound

36:31

and we played it, and

36:33

it certainly delivers. I

36:36

also hear the weight of everything resting

36:38

on DOJ to

36:39

prove that when he says it's

36:41

true. Absolutely. You

36:42

know, I think there are two

36:45

things that the department needs. It

36:47

needs backbone and it needs sort of

36:49

hyper competence. So we

36:51

don't know yet about hyper competence

36:54

meaning putting the cases like this

36:56

together means that you need you to have really smart

36:58

experienced people

37:00

and as Turning to General Garland, they said they can't make mistakes

37:02

because you just can't afford to do that.

37:04

That's one part. The other

37:06

part that

37:08

is equally important is

37:10

is having somebody like the

37:12

attorney general saying that if

37:15

this is warranted, I am going to do it

37:17

and it will be my decision and

37:20

I'm behind. I will stand behind

37:22

you. And to me that again, it may

37:24

be, this is like a rorsheim test and you

37:26

read into it, but I think it's hard not

37:28

to in this

37:30

situation. And what Merrick Garland

37:32

is saying is this is fundamental

37:34

to his view of what

37:38

it means to be the attorney general and to have the rule of

37:40

law and to have a working democracy.

37:42

I I actually agree with him, have

37:45

been at the department for years.

37:48

And I think what he's that's so important for the

37:50

people in the department to hear

37:52

him say that not just to

37:55

the new citizens who you're speaking to in that

37:57

speech that you just play. But

37:58

let me just let me just

37:59

press you in this one

38:02

narrow manner. I listened to it and also thought it was a speech that Robert

38:04

Mueller might have given when he was the

38:06

country's FBI director in the years after

38:08

nine eleven and through the time that he led the

38:10

Mueller investigation.

38:12

AND YET THERE'S A REAL SENSE AND

38:14

YOU HAVE WRITTEN ABOUT IT THAT INVESTIGATION

38:16

CAME UP SHORT OF HOLDING DONALD

38:18

TRUMP ACCOUNTABLE. WHAT'S DIFFERENT NOW?

38:21

So I think there are two things. One is it's important

38:24

to remember that Robert

38:26

Mueller was within the Department of

38:28

Justice and was supposed to under

38:30

the rules just report to

38:32

the attorney general. Right. He did not

38:34

have the power. Exactly.

38:36

And he did not have the power

38:38

to decide to indict or not. No.

38:40

That's not total out, he could have written a different and that's

38:42

that is a fair criticism. I have made

38:44

that criticism. There's two I think there

38:47

are two legitimate sides to that. but

38:50

I think that's an important issue. The other is that I do

38:52

think that Merrick Ireland has learned

38:56

from how Donald Trump

38:58

operates. And as you've talked about sort

39:00

of this vacuum that is created

39:02

if the department doesn't take

39:04

its opportunities to speak. So --

39:06

Right. -- they have done that in various filings that I

39:09

think they've done a really good job

39:11

of making sure that the

39:13

public understands what they've

39:16

done so that they're not just hearing a bunch of spin

39:18

from Donald Trump. And I think

39:20

this speech to new citizens

39:22

was another example of that

39:25

that I think America Airlines and Robert

39:27

Mueller are similar in that they're

39:29

private people and they have a lot

39:31

of backbone and are

39:34

strong people. but I sense with Mary Carlin that he

39:36

is pushing himself to

39:38

meet the moment that he's

39:40

in and to be making these statements

39:43

and learning from what

39:46

has happened in the past. Well, how's that work in

39:47

the past? Joyce, I wanna bring you in. I mean,

39:49

one of the things Merrick Garland's Justice Department is

39:51

doing is now certainly seeming two

39:54

crews ahead in its

39:56

investigations into January six. And one of

39:58

the develop men that was

39:59

reported overnight is that

40:02

Eric Kirschmann, who we've been talking about in the

40:04

context of someone who importantly

40:06

informed Donald Trump that the classified

40:08

materials he took and

40:10

hoarded at Mar a Lago

40:12

was something he could be in trouble for,

40:14

criminal trouble for. He's also been

40:16

subpoenaed by DOJ, big day of news

40:18

for one of the most

40:20

memorable January six witnesses.

40:22

Let me just play some of his testimony

40:24

and ask you what value he adds

40:27

to those

40:27

investigations? I

40:29

said, are you out of your effing mind? I

40:32

said, you're completely crazy. I said

40:34

to him Are you out

40:36

of your effing mind? And I only want to hear

40:38

two words coming out of your mouth for

40:40

now on. Quarterly

40:42

transition. Get a great effing criminal

40:44

defense lawyer. you're gonna need it. I said,

40:47

good. Excuse me.

40:50

Sorry. Ahold. Congratulations. You just

40:52

submitted a first step or act you take as

40:54

attorney general. would be committing a felony. Listen, the best I can tell only

40:56

thing you know about environmental and elections

40:58

challenges, is they both start

41:02

with e? And based on your answers

41:04

tonight, I'm not even sure you know that. He,

41:05

by the time January

41:06

six had happened and he ended up

41:09

a witness before the congressional committee

41:12

investigating January six had where

41:14

they say zero f's left to give,

41:16

and that was his testimony. Talk about

41:18

him now as a witness at

41:21

the disposal of

41:24

DOJ? Well, he's

41:26

obviously the witness you

41:28

wanna put on the stand if you're a prosecutor.

41:31

He's he's colorful. It's

41:33

very memorable testimony. He

41:35

has the gift of good lines

41:37

and and a good way

41:39

of getting across substantive information in a way

41:41

that tends to be something that juries

41:44

will remember. And that of course matters a

41:46

lot to

41:48

prosecutors when they're trying a long

41:50

complicated case. That said, Nicole, I think it's important for

41:52

us to focus on what this news

41:54

about DOJ's investigation means. something

41:58

like forty subpoenas in the last couple of weeks. They've

42:01

seized some phones from key

42:03

players. They're beginning to

42:05

go through those phones This

42:07

looks a lot more to me like

42:10

early stage investigation than

42:12

late stage. This is what you do when you're

42:14

churning through the witnesses and trying to

42:16

figure out what your universe of

42:18

evidence looks like and whether there are

42:20

charges you can bring. It doesn't look

42:22

to me like they're at the

42:24

very end where they've got indictments

42:26

drafted and they're just trying to fill in a

42:28

couple of gaps in the evidence. So whether

42:30

or not Mister Hirschman is ultimately a witness in a criminal

42:32

case remains unseen. It's

42:35

important that his access to

42:37

the president though gives him the opportunity to

42:40

testify if he will and if the

42:42

privileges that he may or may not

42:44

assert permit

42:46

him that he's the witness who can talk about what Donald

42:48

Trump said and what he did, what

42:50

he was told and how he

42:52

was reacted. And

42:53

that's all critically important as you were

42:55

pointing out earlier in the show

42:57

for proving not just what Trump did

42:59

his act, but for proving his

43:01

state of mind, which is an essential element of

43:03

the government's case in a criminal prosecution. It is

43:06

always so much better to hear it

43:07

from you, Joyce. Then to hear me, wing it

43:09

in the question along with

43:12

the question. Alright. No one's going anywhere. We're gonna switch gears. Florida

43:14

governor Ron DeSantis now has a criminal

43:17

investigation potentially brewing. FOR

43:20

HIM AFTER HIS POLITICAL

43:22

STUNT OF MOVING, RELocating,

43:24

SHIPPING HUMANS ACROSS THE

43:26

COUNTRY. OUR EXPERTS WEIGH IN ON

43:28

THAT NEXT.

43:45

Rhonda Santos

43:48

just might be in legal trouble after

43:50

the should be called a stunt,

43:54

sadistic gone T pulled, exploiting migrants' human

43:56

beings to score political points on Fox

43:58

News. A Texas sheriff

43:59

has opened a criminal

44:02

investigation into the Venezuelan migrants. The

44:04

Florida

44:04

governor of Ship from Texas to Martha's

44:08

Vineyard.

44:08

They were taken to

44:10

Martha's Vineyard from what from what

44:12

we can gather for nothing

44:14

for little more than

44:16

a photo op, video op.

44:19

and then they were unceremoniously stranded.

44:21

Somebody came from out of state, prayed

44:23

upon these people, lured them

44:25

with promises of of a better life, which

44:27

is what they were absolutely looking for. And with

44:30

the knowledge that they were going to cling to

44:32

whatever hope they could they could be

44:34

offered for a

44:36

better life, to just be exploited

44:40

and hoodwinked. Just

44:43

in the last few minutes, we've learned that the

44:45

migrants who were flown to Martha's vineyard

44:47

are now suing Governor DeSantis

44:50

and other Florida officials in

44:52

Massachusetts Federal Court. alleging that

44:54

they carried out a premeditated

44:56

fraudulent and a legal scheme

44:58

centered on exploiting this vulnerability for

45:00

the sole purpose

45:02

of advancing their own personal, financial, and political

45:04

interests. We're back with everyone.

45:06

Ryan, do you think there are some

45:08

important legal questions here that a case that this

45:10

will answer?

45:12

think,

45:12

sir, and I think governor DeSantis needs

45:14

to get some good legal counsel

45:16

to

45:16

They're all busy representing so

45:20

much. think it flies and lawyers then.

45:22

Right? But I think it's also of a piece with

45:24

what we've been talking about to

45:26

have Attorney General Garland talk

45:28

about one rule of law and that is not

45:31

a different rule of law for the powerful versus the weak. I'm thinking

45:33

governor DeSantis when I hear that as

45:35

well as Trump. and that

45:37

he can't get away with us if another

45:40

human

45:40

being without a position

45:43

of power coerced migrants and taking them across

45:45

state lines to another part of the country and

45:47

stranding them there. And the coercion is based on

45:49

false pretense. It's everything

45:52

the Sheriff's said -- Right. -- can be framed as a legal position

45:54

as to why that's a crime. A

45:56

federal crime and a crime in Texas. So

45:58

if he was

45:59

anybody else he'd be definitely under criminal investigation, and he'd be

46:02

in deep trouble. So I think

46:04

that's

46:04

is what he's looking now down the barrel of, and

46:06

it's the way in which the system is supposed

46:10

to work. Joyce,

46:10

your thoughts about these sort

46:13

of two fronts of legal

46:16

potential legal peril for

46:18

Ronda Santos.

46:20

I think Ryan is

46:21

absolutely right when he says that

46:24

this civil case may be

46:26

very telling. It may be

46:28

very forthcoming. You know, DeSantis

46:30

is well educated. He went to Yale in

46:32

Harvard Law School, presumably he

46:34

can think through these sorts of issues

46:36

in advance and there are

46:38

some hallmarks here of a very

46:40

carefully crafted strategy

46:42

that permitted these people to just unforgivably mess

46:45

with the lives of these migrants who are vulnerable

46:47

people in the first place without

46:50

exposing themselves to some sort of

46:52

federal criminal

46:54

exposure. And what I mean

46:56

by that is that these people were primarily

46:58

asylum seekers were told

47:00

that means that Trump's porting them because

47:02

they were here legally at that point won't have

47:05

the same implications it would have. If

47:07

they had picked, say, a group of folks

47:09

who were here who were undocumented, It

47:12

looks to me like they might have tried to be very clever here

47:14

about how they executed. This

47:16

just really revolting political scheme. sometimes

47:20

when people are too smart, they can

47:22

be too smart by halves. And

47:24

prosecutors like to sit down and

47:26

read the criminal code from

47:28

front to back to find crimes suit the behavior. So yes,

47:31

it's important news that this civil

47:33

lawsuit is is proceeding.

47:36

and that it's a means of folding them accountable,

47:38

I wouldn't rule out criminal action as well. Wow.

47:41

Troy Stantz, Ryan Goodman, and Andrew

47:43

Weisman, thank you for being

47:45

not just our expert and our eyes and

47:47

ears. But for for being in the courtroom, for being our our intelligent courtroom

47:50

reporter today, that was the real treat.

47:52

When we

47:54

come back, SUSAN GLASSER AND PETER BAKER WILL BE HERE ON THEIR NEW

47:56

BOOK AND THE THREAT DONALD TRUMP

47:58

STILL POSES RIGHT NOW.

47:59

THAT'S now NEXT.

48:10

There were so

48:13

many who wanted

48:16

to

48:16

show they were objecting

48:19

that they'd set up these sign up sheets in the

48:21

cloakroom. And as

48:22

I was sitting there, a member came

48:24

in and he just signed his name on each one of the

48:27

state's sheets. and then he under

48:28

his breath, the things we

48:30

do for the orange Jesus.

48:33

And I thought,

48:36

you know,

48:37

you're taking

48:38

an act that is unconstitutional. Orange

48:41

Jesus. Hi,

48:42

again, everyone. It's

48:45

five York, New York. We talk a lot about

48:47

him. Orange Jesus around here, his

48:49

congresswoman Liz Cheney says a

48:51

fellow Republican described him while at the

48:53

very same time a objecting to

48:55

the two thousand twenty election

48:58

results on Donald Trump's

49:00

behalf, fraudulently, on

49:02

January sixth. The disgraced ex president is now the subject of an

49:04

unbelievable new book by Peter Baker

49:06

and Susan Glasser. It's called

49:08

the divider. It describes

49:10

in stunning detail the

49:12

villain of a White House passed and

49:14

the culprit of what they describe as

49:17

an TIVE CRIME SCENE IN MORE THAN

49:19

seven hundred SEERING PAGES. THEY REtell

49:21

THE STORY OF HOW

49:23

EVERY HOURS OF

49:24

week of every month of every year of his presidency

49:26

foreshadowed. The insurrection insider

49:29

he would become. when

49:31

he

49:31

lost fair and square to president Joe

49:34

Biden. How from the start? He

49:36

did not care to follow

49:38

or to learn

49:40

the rules how he was always a liar and a

49:42

divider who pitted Americans and his own

49:44

White House staffers against

49:46

each other. They write

49:48

this quote. Within weeks, it was apparent that

49:50

the Trump White House was a place for

49:52

almost no one trusted anyone else.

49:55

And

49:55

for good reason, Everyone

49:56

lied all the time about everything. They called

49:58

one

49:58

aid he was

49:59

there at the start.

50:02

Trump's own former advisers

50:04

warn the authors about

50:06

his dangerous, unstable, mental

50:08

state, and ignorance. His

50:10

former national security adviser, John

50:13

Bolton, a secretly enlisted Republican member

50:15

of Congress to use flattery, to get him to reverse major

50:17

policy decisions he viewed as

50:19

reckless or dangerous, Bolton

50:22

staff coordinated with a Republican senator to, quote,

50:25

try to contain Trump more

50:27

explicitly on North Korea. All

50:29

of it made crystal

50:30

clear in a resignation letter

50:32

they include that General Mark Milley,

50:34

the country's highest ranking military

50:36

officer wrote one week after

50:38

Trump's infamous Lafayette Square photo op, but never sent.

50:41

He writes this, quote, it is my

50:43

belief that you were doing

50:45

great and irreparable to

50:47

my country. You were using the military

50:50

to create fear in the minds of

50:52

the people, and we are trying to

50:54

protect the

50:56

American people. And lastly, it is my deeply held belief that you're

50:58

ruining the international order and

51:00

causing significant damage to our

51:02

country overseas.

51:04

The authors say this is not yet

51:06

a book about history, not

51:08

at all. But what

51:10

about

51:11

the still impulsive still

51:14

dangerous, still most powerful

51:16

leader of today's GOP,

51:18

which Trump proves for them, in their

51:20

interviews with them, in which he dished out

51:22

insults for several Republicans and

51:24

people he had picked to advise him.

51:26

But, quote,

51:27

people he

51:28

had no words of criticism

51:30

for,

51:31

Putin,

51:32

Xi Jinping, Kim

51:33

Jong Un, the

51:34

January sixth, riders, or

51:37

white supremacists. As for his

51:39

own vice president, Trump said he would not pick Mike

51:41

Pence as his running mate if he ran again in twenty

51:43

twenty four. Quote, it would be totally

51:46

inappropriate. Trump

51:48

said, my

51:49

committed political suicide by

51:52

not taking votes that he knew were

51:54

wrong. Triple negatives

51:55

get confusing, but you

51:57

get the A PARTY IN WHICH JANUARY VI IS NOW

51:59

THE ADMISSION TESTS LED BY A DISGRACE TRICE

52:02

INPEACHED X PRESIDENT WHO SHOWED

52:04

ALL THE

52:06

SYMPTOMS OF AN INSURCTIONOUS LEADER RIGHT FROM THE START IS WHERE WE

52:08

START THE HOURS WITH THE OTHERS OF

52:10

THE NEW BOOK, THE DIVIDER TRUMP IN

52:13

THE WHITE HOUSE. Peter Baker, New York Times' chief White House

52:15

correspondent, also an MSNBC political

52:18

analyst. And Susan Glasser, it is so nice

52:20

to see you, staff writer for the New

52:22

Yorkers. Susan, I'm in start with

52:24

you. We've read the book. We have a

52:26

stack of polls here. I hope we get to all of

52:28

them. But tell me what

52:30

for you. is the thing that that you walk around and you're

52:32

like, I can't believe we were able

52:34

to report this on the

52:36

record. Well,

52:38

Nicole, I

52:38

have to say I'm a little upset

52:41

with Liz Cheney because that orange Jesus

52:43

quote would have been really great

52:45

to include in the book certainly

52:47

a chapter title. It would have

52:50

warranted, if not, changing the book title

52:52

altogether. But I look,

52:54

I I think you just quoted from

52:56

the resignation letter of the chairman of

52:58

the George Jesus' staff that he wrote out

53:02

even that we knew in a general sense that there was

53:04

this conflict running conflict throughout all four

53:06

years of the Trump presidency between Trump and

53:09

the generals who were so alarmed

53:12

by what he was trying to do to disrupt American

53:14

national security. For me as a journalist

53:16

over three decades, I can never

53:19

remember being more just mind

53:22

blown. The first time that

53:24

we had access to the full text

53:26

of that letter understanding that the

53:28

sitting leader of the United States military, the non partisan US

53:31

military, believe the president of the United

53:33

States was doing grave and irreparable

53:36

damage that he did not subscribe to many of the

53:38

principles that the United States fought for

53:40

in World War two. You know, this

53:43

is this is really for

53:45

me, it it captured this extraordinary

53:48

moment in American history, and it is the

53:50

reason why Peter and I decided to

53:52

devote the time after Trump left

53:54

office to try to find out more about

53:56

what happened during his

53:58

presidency. Susan, I I went back and looked

53:59

at some of your NATIONAL SECURITY

54:02

COVERAGE WHILE TRUMP WAS PRESIDENT.

54:04

AND WHAT WAS PUBLIC FACING WHILE

54:06

HE WAS AN OFFICE IS ALL BUILDING TO

54:08

WHAT YOU COMPLETELY BLOW OUT. in

54:11

the reporting on the book. And I wonder if you can

54:13

just sort of encapsulate for

54:16

me knew

54:18

or whether it was known that his

54:20

own military leaders, cabinet members saw

54:22

him as a threat to the, quote, international

54:26

world order or whether some of that came out

54:28

after he turned on the government, he

54:30

ostensibly led on

54:32

January sixth. Yeah.

54:34

It's

54:34

a really good question. I mean, had anyone

54:36

known the extent of

54:38

that conflict and the fears of

54:41

the the US's National Security

54:44

Leadership at the time. Those would have been banner

54:46

headlines in the New York Times and every other

54:48

news organization. There was a

54:50

general sense of, you know, conflict. You

54:53

would hear reports. People reported them contemporaneously. Like,

54:55

when Jim Mattis, the first

54:57

Trump defense secretary left,

55:00

you know, I remembered hearing and it was reported

55:02

people saying it's much worse than you

55:04

can even imagine, but we didn't know

55:07

chapter and verse. on what it

55:10

was. I wrote a story, Nicole.

55:12

I remember vividly back in twenty

55:14

seventeen after Trump's disastrous

55:16

First NATO meeting in which I wrote a

55:18

little bit ABOUT THIS FROM MY SOURCES THAT, YOU WAS

55:20

ATTACKING. NADA WAS REFUSING TO

55:22

SAY THAT HE BELIEVED IN Article

55:26

five I have the, you know, all one one for all, common defense principle and

55:28

then taking it out of his speech. That was

55:30

fake news at the time. But I didn't

55:32

know and was amazed here

55:36

senior officials tell Peter and I in reporting

55:38

this book that they believe Trump

55:40

was much closer than we knew at

55:42

the time to withdrawing from NATO.

55:46

Pier,

55:46

you are one of the best White House

55:48

reporters, but this was not your first rodeo. You

55:50

covered the White House in which ICE served.

55:53

I think you're still the Washington Post. So

55:55

you worked the Washington Post and then and then the New York Times, and then you covered how

55:57

to see the Obama, White House, and

55:59

wrote incredible, compelling, deeply

56:01

reported books about both

56:04

those presidencies. This book is so

56:06

different. It is an

56:08

indictment of a

56:08

failed human being. It is

56:11

a collapse of character. And I

56:13

wonder if you sort of widen the lens of your own

56:15

reporting about American Presidents how reporting this

56:17

book out fell?

56:21

Well,

56:21

it is different than other book, but it's

56:23

different because of the fact set. In other words,

56:25

the facts that are presented in this book

56:28

are what would be called damning by anybody because

56:30

of what he actually did. You know,

56:32

my view is that we took we take the approach

56:34

journalism the same. We look at what's in front of us.

56:36

We try

56:38

to discover or was not shared with us. We try to present that to our

56:40

readers. And what we found here as opposed to

56:42

other presences is a story who had

56:44

never seen American history. We've never seen

56:46

a president who's willing

56:48

to to to push the boundaries of the

56:50

constitution to to warn the

56:52

traditions and and

56:54

attack institutions that served us for two

56:56

hundred forty six years in in the same way

56:58

that he has. So that to understand

57:00

January six, our thesis became you had to

57:02

understand January twentieth two

57:04

thousand seventeen, and every day that came in

57:06

between because it was an inexorable full

57:08

year march to this

57:10

violent conclusion that was immerably predictable

57:13

if we had understood exactly what he was doing

57:15

at the time, we tried to understand at the time. As

57:17

Susan said, we decided it was worth going back after we

57:19

left. If he left off, he's trying to learn more.

57:21

And I'm sure there'll be more TO COME,

57:23

BUT THERE'S IS MOMENT TO STOT. Reporter: PETER VIGER, YOU'RE

57:25

RIGHT ABOUT YOU'RE

57:26

ABLE TO REPORT OUT A PRESIDENT

57:30

WHO'S FACT sets suggest that he

57:32

didn't want soldiers wounded in

57:34

service of the country marching in

57:36

military parades. You report

57:38

out that Lindsey am his most public defender called him a mother

57:40

ever. I mean, it is

57:42

a a searing

57:44

and devastating portrait

57:46

of the American presidency and a person who occupied it. I

57:48

I guess a version of the same question

57:50

I I asked, isn't was

57:53

the reporting on the

57:55

book, the first time you saw that version of him,

57:57

that that Mark Milley feared that the

58:00

international world order was

58:02

in danger. that John

58:04

Kelly advised people not to work there

58:06

because he was so

58:08

bad. Yeah. Look, we

58:09

spent four years trying to report out as many of these

58:12

stories we could during his

58:14

presidency. And what we discover, of course, as we

58:16

always do, is when the presidency is over or at

58:18

least or at present leaves office, that

58:20

people are more willing to talk than they were

58:22

when he's in off this. Right? And so people

58:24

were more willing to tell us

58:26

and share things that they had not before. We were

58:28

able to report things out that we didn't

58:30

know before. or expand on things that we did know and understand them better.

58:32

Right? I mean, I think one of the things we were surprised

58:34

by is learning new detailed

58:36

and new complexion stories that we

58:38

had reported time, but didn't fully

58:40

understand as well as learning things we didn't

58:42

know at the time. Good example, green one. This is

58:44

a funny small thing, I suppose. We're

58:46

people at heard President Trump

58:48

talk about buying Greenland. They thought it was kinda

58:50

like a one off, you

58:52

know, thought balloon or whatever. But in fact, this

58:54

has been gone for years because one

58:56

of his billionaire friends had been trying to push him toward that. And it

58:58

forced the whole national security, canceled the

59:00

apparatus to try to draft the plan. They even

59:02

came up with the options memo, including like

59:04

a leaseback provision. You know,

59:06

they they they took this very seriously. We didn't know

59:08

that at a time. It's one of these things you can

59:10

learn after administration leaves office. And

59:12

and it it it talks about the importance of

59:14

doing books like this so we can learn

59:16

more about what happened, especially

59:18

because it may happen

59:19

again. Susan, one of the

59:22

perfect examples or illustrations

59:24

of this IS THE

59:26

MUELLER INVESTIGATION WHICH IS

59:28

SO BRILIENTLY COVERED

59:30

BY SO MANY NEWS ORGANIZATIONS, ESPECIALLY

59:32

THE TIMES, you learned something new about

59:35

how Trump wanted to try to

59:37

deal with that.

59:39

Tell that story. Well, you you know, he

59:41

was constantly searching, as you know, and

59:43

as is detailed in the report,

59:45

he's constantly searching

59:48

for people to, you know, rid him of this this medicine

59:51

special counsel. And he's

59:53

also, as you know, infuriated buying

59:56

his first attorney general, Jeff Sessions, were recusing

59:59

himself from this. And, you know,

1:00:01

that was I think one of

1:00:03

the more extraordinary dramas of

1:00:05

the first couple years of the Trump

1:00:08

presidency, and we found out that he actually

1:00:10

was repeatedly

1:00:12

seeking basically a

1:00:14

loyalist, someone who he thought would do his bidding as

1:00:16

the attorney general and actually going to

1:00:18

not one but two different members

1:00:21

of his cabinet at the

1:00:24

time seeking people who would

1:00:26

be agreeing to go and replace

1:00:28

Jeff Sessions and presumably

1:00:30

take over

1:00:32

and eliminate the Mueller investigation, obviously,

1:00:34

that didn't happen. But what he

1:00:36

found in Villar was

1:00:38

a loyalist

1:00:40

who who actually did do an enormous amount

1:00:42

to to distort and shape

1:00:45

the public's impression of the Mueller

1:00:48

investigation that turned out to be misleading

1:00:50

when we actually got to see the

1:00:52

report ourselves. And Barr

1:00:54

is a great example. because he's both an enabler

1:00:56

and a facilitator of

1:00:59

Donald Trump. But then he

1:01:01

says after the election, well, I'm off the

1:01:03

train now. As you know, he's written

1:01:05

CRITICAL MEMORY HE SPOKEN OUT AND SAID

1:01:07

THERE WAS NO ELECTION AND

1:01:09

WIDESPREAD ELECTION FOD THAT WOULD WARN

1:01:11

OVERTURNING THE ELECTION But that's probably why we did

1:01:13

the book too because Bill Barr is also a

1:01:16

bit disingenuous. Right, Nicole?

1:01:18

When he says, oh my goodness, he went crazy

1:01:22

after the election. But really, this was the Trump

1:01:24

all four years. Exactly.

1:01:26

I

1:01:26

wanna read some more

1:01:29

you're both brilliant and beautiful writers. I

1:01:31

I wanna read, we talked about Article

1:01:33

five, but this is what's in the

1:01:35

book about it.

1:01:36

Trump have been briefed early in

1:01:39

his tenure about Article five and how

1:01:41

mutual defense IN NATO worked. Quote,

1:01:43

you mean if Russia attack L

1:01:45

Lithuania, we'd go to war with Russia.

1:01:47

He responded, that's crazy.

1:01:50

He hinted many times that he wanted out

1:01:52

of NATO. The senior

1:01:53

defense official recalled

1:01:55

He never said do it, but

1:01:57

he got really close. A senior

1:01:59

White House

1:01:59

official confirmed, quote, he wanted to

1:02:02

pull out of NATO on a number of

1:02:04

occasions that was actually much more

1:02:06

serious than people realized. Peter Baker, I

1:02:07

remember on that trip, the

1:02:09

national

1:02:10

security team

1:02:11

calling back

1:02:14

to the states on multiple occasions. And I I imagine they were

1:02:16

doing far more aggressive and

1:02:18

frantic outreach to reporters like yourself.

1:02:22

gonna do it. He's gonna do the Poland speech. He's gonna do the next speech. He's gonna

1:02:24

do we wrote it in there. Oh, what happened? He didn't

1:02:26

say, oh, it'll be in the next speech. I mean,

1:02:29

how how I think what

1:02:31

the book reveals is we were it felt like

1:02:33

we were on the edge of a knife and we

1:02:35

were actually already being cut. by that

1:02:37

knife. And article, your article five reporting is an incredible example of

1:02:39

that. Howard Bauchner: Well, imagine

1:02:42

how impactful

1:02:42

that would be today.

1:02:46

Right? When Vladimir Putin invades Ukraine in part

1:02:48

because he's trying to drive a wedge in

1:02:50

NATO, imagine if NATO had

1:02:54

been fractured successfully in the way Donald Trump seemed to wanna do it. If

1:02:56

United States had pulled out of NATO, what

1:02:58

would that mean in terms of Vladimir Putin

1:03:00

today? NATO has been reunified

1:03:02

in effect

1:03:04

by Vladimir Putin after having been torn

1:03:06

apart during Trump's presidency. So

1:03:08

it's it's not an esoteric question.

1:03:11

It's not an abstract is a question

1:03:13

with great deal of geopolitical import right now. Howard Bauchner: Peter, I

1:03:15

also

1:03:16

remember the deep divisions

1:03:18

inside the senior West Wing

1:03:22

staff between the access of Jared Kushner, Dina Powell, and Ivanka

1:03:24

on one side and all they they each have their own

1:03:26

press offices at one point, I think. And then

1:03:28

John Kelly and some of the people who

1:03:32

wanted to at least reach toward something looking more

1:03:34

professional. This manifests

1:03:36

itself

1:03:36

in in in some really amazing

1:03:40

reporting about suicide

1:03:41

packs about stoppers who said, if you go, I go, about red

1:03:43

lines, I used to ask that question on this

1:03:45

show every single day. What makes

1:03:47

them leave? If disparaging John

1:03:51

McCain doesn't make them leave if good people on

1:03:53

both sides of a KKK rally doesn't make

1:03:55

them leave. I mean, there was

1:03:57

a red line We just

1:03:59

didn't

1:03:59

know what they were or talk about that.

1:04:02

Howard Bauchner: Yeah, I think

1:04:03

that one of the three lines in this book, one of

1:04:06

the enduring questions in every

1:04:08

single interview. I think we did was

1:04:10

this moral struggle between

1:04:12

staying working for somebody that they didn't believe in, that

1:04:14

they didn't think was was

1:04:16

adherent to the constitution that they

1:04:18

felt was reckless or dangerous or whatever,

1:04:20

you know, assessment they made and

1:04:22

then leaving. And a lot of times, they would justify this. Well, if I it would get

1:04:24

worse. And, you know, that's a rationalization at

1:04:27

some point. But on the other

1:04:30

hand, you can find examples where that was true, where they were replaced by people

1:04:32

who were more supplicants to president

1:04:34

Trump, who were more willing to

1:04:36

do the things that president Trump one of

1:04:38

the do the first generation of age refused to do. You know,

1:04:41

I mean, John Kelly, you used the example

1:04:43

of John McCain. Right? He told

1:04:46

the president You know, if you refuse to support his funeral,

1:04:48

the American people will come and piss on your

1:04:50

grave, pardon my language, but that was his

1:04:52

language. And he did succeed

1:04:54

arguably, of

1:04:56

course, belatedly in convincing Trump to to to support that

1:04:58

funeral and keep the the flags

1:05:00

half step, but at what cost?

1:05:03

Right? Everybody there who worked for

1:05:05

him feels like pay the cost in some way or

1:05:07

another. And the question was how long they were willing to take

1:05:09

it or how long he was willing to put

1:05:11

up with it? Susan, the book

1:05:12

also, I think, has an incredibly full

1:05:15

picture of the doubts that

1:05:17

the national security leaders had.

1:05:20

about Donald Trump's integrity and his fitness.

1:05:22

And and I know there's been

1:05:24

a lot of reporting the

1:05:26

book, you know, by anonymous who

1:05:29

we now yeah, of course, know who that is. I mean, the twentieth

1:05:31

amendment comes up almost like a

1:05:33

punchline now. But I I wonder if the

1:05:35

national security officials ever

1:05:37

sat down and really worried about the

1:05:39

guy whose, you know, finger was on

1:05:41

the buttons. Yeah, I

1:05:44

mean, I think the record is pretty

1:05:46

clear that this was a through line again

1:05:48

from January of twenty

1:05:50

seventeen on, you know,

1:05:52

that Trump was determined to

1:05:54

test and push the boundaries in

1:05:56

a way that, you know, no no

1:05:58

modern president

1:05:59

ever had been and

1:06:01

that they viewed him I think

1:06:03

as reckless and as

1:06:06

not fully committed in many

1:06:08

ways to, you know, we're

1:06:10

even understanding of many of the

1:06:12

pillars of how our national security works now. We again had

1:06:14

public indication of this. Even Donald Trump as

1:06:16

a candidate made it clear he had no

1:06:18

idea what

1:06:20

the nuclear triad was. Never mind how it worked. Right? But

1:06:22

it's not a matter of factual ignorance.

1:06:24

It was, I think, in his

1:06:27

repeated efforts to test the

1:06:29

boundaries.

1:06:29

And there's this incredible scene, literally, the

1:06:31

first situation we're meeting of

1:06:33

the Trump

1:06:34

presidency in January

1:06:37

twenty seventeen and, you know, the

1:06:39

new advisors are gathered around the table

1:06:41

there. There's only one holdover

1:06:44

from the did the Obama administration match the chairman of the chiefs

1:06:46

at the time Joe Dunford, and

1:06:48

they're they're meant to be briefing Trump

1:06:51

on the NASH security threats

1:06:54

around the globe, and it's a

1:06:56

disaster. Right? And it's the kind of vintage

1:06:58

Trump he's rambling off on

1:06:59

other subjects he's complaining

1:07:01

At one point, according to our reporting, he's complaining

1:07:03

about South Korea and how much money

1:07:05

they charge for his hotels

1:07:07

for their TVs. This is

1:07:10

in the first national security

1:07:12

briefing of this presidency, and it's such a

1:07:14

disaster that Ryan's previous, the new

1:07:16

White House Chiefs have calls a

1:07:18

number of the advisers and says, we better go to

1:07:20

my office and figure out what they had to

1:07:22

do after this terrible

1:07:24

meeting. And Dunford in his role as the

1:07:26

uniformed, you know, sort of senior

1:07:28

statesman there says okay.

1:07:30

Well, let's not worry too much about it once

1:07:32

you settle

1:07:34

in. We'll

1:07:34

figure out what the Trump doctrine is. We'll figure out how it

1:07:36

works. And Jared Kushner cuts him

1:07:39

off. And

1:07:39

he basically says No.

1:07:41

That's not how this is ever going to

1:07:44

work general. And of

1:07:45

course, Jared Kushner

1:07:46

was right. He understood

1:07:48

WHO HIS FATHER IN LAW WAS AND THE MILITARY

1:07:50

ESTABLISHMENT DIDN'T KNOW, BUT THEY QUICKLY LEARNED THAT THIS WAS

1:07:53

A PRESIDENT LIKE NO OTHER. I

1:07:56

just say the least. We're gonna ask for the dispute to stick

1:07:58

around with us

1:07:59

much more to come from Peter

1:08:02

and Susan's fantastic new book

1:08:04

with the divider, including some of the

1:08:06

most dangerous yes men who

1:08:08

remain in the disgraced

1:08:10

ex president's of it and later

1:08:12

in the hour when issued at his dog, the current president has been the price of gas.

1:08:14

Those prices have been coming down steadily

1:08:19

AND A LOT. THE ENERGY SECRETARY JENNIFER GRAND HOME WILL BE OUR

1:08:21

GUEST HERE AT THE TABLE TO TALK ABOUT WHY

1:08:23

PRESIDENT JOE BIDEN MIGHT

1:08:26

NOT be getting the credit that they think he

1:08:28

deserves. And how to explain a

1:08:30

political party that delights in the

1:08:33

shipping of human beings,

1:08:35

migrants, fleeing communism, all staying silent

1:08:37

on its leader's wholesale embrace of QAnon. Our friend Charlie Sykes

1:08:39

will be here to try to explain that.

1:08:42

The White House continues

1:08:44

after break.

1:08:47

Don't go

1:08:52

anywhere. Drop

1:08:55

an eye. We've

1:08:57

had a hell

1:08:59

of a

1:09:02

journey. I hate it then this way. Oh

1:09:04

my god. I hate it. For my point

1:09:06

of view, he's been a consequential prophet.

1:09:08

But

1:09:09

today, first

1:09:11

thing you'll see. All I

1:09:13

can say is count me

1:09:15

out enough is enough. I've tried

1:09:18

i've tried to be helpful

1:09:19

to be helpful. never

1:09:21

mind. Lindsay came back. They always do. We're back with the authors of the

1:09:23

new book, the divider Peter

1:09:26

Raker and Susan Gosser.

1:09:29

the authors of this great new book. Susan, what's amazing is the

1:09:31

and you have some great language I alluded to

1:09:33

earlier. They all know that

1:09:36

he's a a

1:09:38

garbage human being, a terrible president, a threat

1:09:41

to national domestic security, and they

1:09:43

all go along with it.

1:09:45

Why? That's the enduring mysteryism in

1:09:46

Nicole. It's the the self abatement

1:09:49

of many of these

1:09:51

folks has been pretty

1:09:55

extraordinary. And, of course, there would be no

1:09:57

term presidency to speak of

1:09:59

without them. You know, one

1:10:01

of the things that's very clear. Right? Is

1:10:03

that Donald Trump without the litigrams and the

1:10:05

rest of the Republican infrastructure that's

1:10:08

supported him? He would have

1:10:10

just been another angry old dude

1:10:12

shouting at the television industry's golf games.

1:10:14

And, of course, is the story, you know, Trump in

1:10:16

the White

1:10:18

House is the

1:10:20

story people like Moon's Secretariat. And,

1:10:22

you know, there was a remarkable moment where he, you know, we ran into him on

1:10:24

a Washington Street

1:10:27

literally, and he told us

1:10:29

how he thought that, you know, Trump was in line. Motherf, you know,

1:10:31

but he also said he's a lot

1:10:34

of fun to hang out

1:10:36

with.

1:10:37

and Graham seemed

1:10:39

to be absolutely dazzled by

1:10:41

this kind of access

1:10:43

to power and celebrity that

1:10:45

Trump offered him. You know, it really it's it's it's pretty amazing in

1:10:47

a way. I used to

1:10:49

say, right, that

1:10:50

Donald Trump was, like, holding

1:10:53

up a mirror for other people's souls. And obviously, part of

1:10:55

this book, what it shows us in the mirror isn't

1:10:57

isn't all that flattering to to many

1:10:59

of these folks. So

1:11:03

such

1:11:03

a good point. Peter,

1:11:05

Sunday night, the Times reported

1:11:07

that the rally Saturday night

1:11:09

that I think looked really weird. People

1:11:11

holding up their finger, and there was a there was

1:11:13

background music playing while Trump was talking, which wasn't

1:11:15

a hallmark of a lot of the rallies.

1:11:18

There was always walk on and walk off

1:11:20

music. but there wasn't always background mood music

1:11:22

playing while Trump was rambling. That changed. The fingers were up.

1:11:24

The Times reports that

1:11:26

the song that was played.

1:11:29

is identical to the QAnon theme song. This is

1:11:31

where Republicans have led the United

1:11:33

States of America. This is

1:11:35

where Republicans have turned

1:11:38

the Republican Party into a

1:11:41

Qnon cult. What did you

1:11:43

what what came the closest

1:11:45

to

1:11:45

remorse in terms of reporting it

1:11:47

in for the book? Who's remorse? Anyone

1:11:49

in the

1:11:50

republican party? Who comes the

1:11:52

closest to feeling any remorse

1:11:54

for what they've ushered in?

1:11:58

That's a

1:11:59

good question. You know, there are obviously people who

1:12:02

were talking to us who were kind of, you

1:12:04

know, cleanse their souls,

1:12:06

cleanse their reputations, you know, rewrite history for their own benefit

1:12:09

to to to to

1:12:11

rationalize or explain away. their

1:12:16

involvement. There are only really a handful of people

1:12:18

I think we've talked to. I feel like we're

1:12:22

completely willing to say you know, big mistake. Never should have

1:12:24

been there. You know, people you

1:12:26

know, not not even

1:12:27

necessarily household

1:12:31

names. you know, people like Miles Taylor, you mentioned earlier, the book

1:12:33

on anonymous Olivia Troy,

1:12:35

Elizabeth Griffin, people who

1:12:37

said, you know, I got brought into something

1:12:39

and I believed in it and III was

1:12:41

wrong. I made a mistake and it was it was

1:12:44

much worse

1:12:46

than I had anticipated. A lot of others were trying to basically say, look,

1:12:48

you know, he was a terrible person

1:12:50

or a terrible president, but they didn't

1:12:54

wanna be associated with saying things on the record even now

1:12:56

to that effect. They might wanna tell

1:12:58

their stories, but they are still

1:13:01

reluctant to cross

1:13:04

him to overly. And it's really remarkable what power

1:13:06

he still has over the people who do not

1:13:06

believe in him who think he is, in fact, a threat

1:13:09

to the country

1:13:10

in a lot of ways.

1:13:13

and yet are still very, very

1:13:15

much, I think, you know, intimidated or nervous

1:13:17

about getting him

1:13:19

his bad side. It's

1:13:22

just amazing. It's a

1:13:24

really, really beautifully

1:13:27

written, incredibly reported story. of,

1:13:29

as you both said, some of the things

1:13:31

we kind of knew were happening, but didn't really understand everything that was grinding and

1:13:34

churning under the surface.

1:13:37

Thank you so much. To both of you

1:13:39

for being here, Peter and Susan's new book, the divider is out now, Peter Susan Klasser. Thank you

1:13:41

so much for spending time with

1:13:43

us, and congratulations. WHEN

1:13:47

WE

1:13:47

COME BACK, WE WILL SHIFT GEARS TO

1:13:49

THE CURRENT OCCUPENT OF THE OVAL Office

1:13:52

PRESIDENT JOE BIDEN WHO IS

1:13:54

ON A ROLE lately, helped in part by

1:13:56

gas prices that are going down very

1:13:58

quickly for which his team

1:13:59

doesn't feel like he gets

1:14:02

much credit for. We'll try to change that for that. Energy Secretary,

1:14:04

Jennifer Granholm, will be our guest at the

1:14:06

table. After a quick break, don't go anywhere.

1:14:21

No. I'm telling the American people that we're

1:14:24

gonna

1:14:24

get control

1:14:28

of inflation. and their prescription

1:14:30

drug prices are going to be held a lot lower. Their health care costs are going to be a lot lower. Their basic costs for everybody.

1:14:32

Their energy prices are

1:14:35

going to be lower. they're

1:14:38

gonna be in a situation where they begin to

1:14:40

gain control again. I'm a more optimistic

1:14:42

than I've been a long time.

1:14:45

I was

1:14:45

president Joe Biden on sixty minutes Sunday night remaining

1:14:47

optimistic about not only state

1:14:50

of the US economy, but

1:14:52

particularly energy

1:14:55

costs. They have continued to go down week after week

1:14:57

after week especially over the last four

1:14:59

weeks. Gas prices, which

1:15:01

earlier in the summer, was high as five

1:15:03

dollars a gallon, are down twenty five

1:15:05

percent to about three point

1:15:07

seven four dollars

1:15:10

nationwide. the plumbing gas prices are making Americans feel

1:15:13

a little better, but the overall state

1:15:15

of the economy with consumer

1:15:18

sentiment reaching a three month

1:15:20

high at fifty eight point two

1:15:22

percent that gives the administration another boost of some momentum heading into the midterms

1:15:24

trending as now.

1:15:27

Energy secretary, Jennifer Granhall, said,

1:15:30

I haven't seen you since even in the cabinet,

1:15:32

and we we mess all of your smart

1:15:34

political insights. So so maybe at the end,

1:15:36

we'll we'll pick your brain a little bit. But

1:15:38

but tell me, I mean, answer two questions for me. One,

1:15:40

what is happening and two, what

1:15:42

is not getting out? Well,

1:15:45

number one, what's happening

1:15:47

is that the president sort of

1:15:49

unleashed the Kraken, which is the strategic

1:15:51

petroleum reserve. Back in the late spring, he

1:15:53

said because the prices were starting

1:15:55

to go up, This

1:15:58

is, of course, as a result of of Putin's invasion

1:16:00

of Ukraine. He said, I'm gonna release

1:16:02

a million barrels a day from our

1:16:04

strategic petroleum reserve for the next six

1:16:07

months. A hundred

1:16:07

and eighty million barrels and that has had

1:16:09

an impact.

1:16:10

Obviously, there has been other activity on the globe

1:16:12

and the globe that has

1:16:14

also done that, but really the

1:16:16

point

1:16:16

was we wanted to make up for

1:16:18

the gap, which was the amount of Russian oil because of course oil was traded on a

1:16:21

global market. What what

1:16:23

is the gap that we had

1:16:25

to fill with our strategic petroleum reserve. And so now we're seeing supply and demand start to

1:16:28

balance out.

1:16:32

It's been almost a hundred days, ninety

1:16:34

eight straight days of gas prices falling as a result

1:16:38

of that leadership. caveats all over because

1:16:40

anything can happen globally. And one

1:16:42

of the big challenges, I think,

1:16:45

will be if China opens up again and everybody starts

1:16:47

to drive because they've been in this lockdown because

1:16:50

of COVID. Yeah. There will be an upward

1:16:52

pressure on prices because demand

1:16:54

will go up We want to increase supply. We've

1:16:56

been asking our international

1:16:58

allies as well as domestically.

1:17:01

to increase production at this moment so

1:17:04

that people aren't

1:17:04

hurting, and all of that has been happening as

1:17:06

well. It seems like there were some mean,

1:17:10

I remember when the president came out and called

1:17:12

it the Putin tax, you know, tried to explain to the country that gas could

1:17:14

become more expensive because of our support of Ukraine. And you still have I

1:17:16

think of

1:17:19

ninety percent of Americans support Ukraine, and there were

1:17:22

against Russia. But it was

1:17:24

clear that the American people

1:17:26

didn't wanna pay more for gas. did

1:17:28

that I mean, was there sort of

1:17:30

an an all hands recognition that that was a political

1:17:35

reality AND AN ECONOMIC REALITY? ABSOLUTELY. I MEAN

1:17:36

PEOPLE WERE HURDING. AND THERE'S

1:17:39

CROSS CURANCE WITH THE

1:17:41

CLEAN

1:17:41

ENERGY AGENDA AS WELL. RIGHT?

1:17:43

or asking for increases in production for today so that people

1:17:45

can make sure that they can have

1:17:48

reasonable prices

1:17:50

at the pump. And and, you know, by the way, that's just like so

1:17:52

expensive for people. Right now, if they

1:17:54

have two cars, they save about

1:17:57

one hundred and forty

1:17:59

dollars a month. and fill up costs based

1:18:01

from the peak. So it is real impact on the ground. But we

1:18:04

also wanna move,

1:18:07

transform our economy clean energy economy

1:18:09

so

1:18:09

that we are not at the whim of what's happening globally and that means moving

1:18:12

toward electrification

1:18:13

over

1:18:15

time and bringing down prices of those electric vehicles so people can

1:18:18

afford them. So there's a lot of cross

1:18:20

currents happening. But the good news

1:18:22

is that because, I mean, we're

1:18:24

all so obsessed about

1:18:26

inflation, right? Gas prices, fuel prices are a big chunk of inflation. One

1:18:28

of the reasons why you started

1:18:31

to see it level out last

1:18:34

month was because of these prices coming down and

1:18:37

we hope that that will continue. What are

1:18:38

the talks or preparations? I

1:18:41

mean, I know in Europe, there's a

1:18:43

lot of anked and hand ringing about when the winter could usher

1:18:45

in the war in Ukraine continues

1:18:47

to rage on. What are the plans

1:18:49

to sort of stay ahead of this and

1:18:51

keep prices or try to keep

1:18:53

prices where they are. Yeah. I mean, there's

1:18:55

the the oil and gas prices and then there's the natural gas prices Europe. The

1:18:58

natural gas prices are

1:19:00

through the roof because, again, Putin is essentially using

1:19:03

energy as a weapon -- Mhmm. -- and turning off the supply. I

1:19:05

mean, you know, Europe has been and

1:19:07

this is so obvious to

1:19:10

that everybody now way over reliant on a

1:19:13

supply from one country, whose values

1:19:15

they don't And so this is

1:19:17

why this push toward being energy independent

1:19:19

through clean energy is a global push. And in fact, you know, with this

1:19:21

passage of the inflation reduction act

1:19:23

and the by It's

1:19:27

an infrastructure law, really message that the United States is really

1:19:30

serious about being able to build our

1:19:32

own clean energy

1:19:35

and be independent here. and

1:19:37

we want to be able to help our

1:19:39

allies as well. So that means exporting liquefied natural gas to Europe and helping them

1:19:41

out and at the same time as

1:19:43

partnering with them on

1:19:46

technologies that reduce their carbon

1:19:49

pollution like clean energy

1:19:51

technologies. Will you

1:19:52

go to Puerto

1:19:54

Rico and help them. I mean, I think it's five years ago

1:19:56

today that her cane Maria hit them

1:19:58

and devastated them. They are now

1:20:01

out of power again. That grid is so

1:20:03

fragile. Will you go over there and try to advise them on a more sustainable solution? Well, we have been

1:20:05

actually, we have a team that's been working

1:20:07

on Puerto Rico now for

1:20:11

two years really. In fact, our

1:20:14

National Renewable Energy Laboratory

1:20:16

and several of the other

1:20:18

labs have actually are working on a roadmap to get them to Puerto

1:20:20

Rico's goal of getting to a hundred percent

1:20:22

clean electricity so that they're not so

1:20:26

reliant upon you know, fossil fuels and unstable sources. So

1:20:28

you're hearing anecdotally, for example, the

1:20:30

people who had solar panels on

1:20:33

their roof and energy and batteries

1:20:35

that backed it up, their power

1:20:37

did not go out. And so that's one of the options

1:20:39

is to get people completely saturated with

1:20:42

solar panels and storage.

1:20:44

But we also want to make sure the

1:20:47

grid itself is resilient. So as of right now, the latest report from today,

1:20:49

we have a team on the

1:20:51

ground there as well. So

1:20:53

the latest report right now is that there's about two hundred thousand people whose power was has been excuse three

1:20:56

hundred thousand whose

1:20:59

power has been returned. but

1:21:01

about one point one million who are

1:21:04

still out. So about twenty percent back on, we expect this

1:21:06

will be much better than Maria, obviously much less of

1:21:11

category, category one versus category four, but

1:21:13

much more, much greater coordination

1:21:15

right now than

1:21:18

existed five years ago. So

1:21:20

that's, you know, hopeful sign. But they that

1:21:22

grid is definitely fragile. And the overall goal

1:21:25

of getting to a hundred

1:21:27

percent clean electricity

1:21:28

is gonna require significant investment, which the federal government

1:21:30

has our federal government has been putting forward to make

1:21:33

sure that we

1:21:35

help Puerto Rico. It's it's

1:21:38

you have to imagine the the the trauma that's all on earth to go through this again, almost

1:21:40

a mix of activity. I

1:21:42

I wanna ask you about a

1:21:46

different hat that you wore and where most of our viewers got to

1:21:48

know you, we were governor of Michigan.

1:21:50

It feels like ground zero for

1:21:53

all the looney

1:21:54

stuff happening in American politics right now. And I wonder how concerned you are when

1:21:56

you see the efforts

1:21:59

to really sort of strike

1:22:02

the matches of disinformation and to

1:22:05

use the big lie to disenfranchise

1:22:07

voters in Michigan. I wonder what

1:22:09

your level of concern is about

1:22:11

domestic politics. Yeah, coming from Michigan, obviously, having

1:22:13

been the governor there. And,

1:22:16

you know, when I was

1:22:18

governor there, It was the tea party and it was some

1:22:20

of that, but now it has

1:22:22

just amped up to a

1:22:26

shocking level really. a shocking level for all of us who love

1:22:28

our country and who've taken oaths,

1:22:30

you know, in support of

1:22:33

the

1:22:34

constitution and who was raised saying the pledge of allegiance

1:22:36

and what are you pledging if you're not

1:22:38

believing in democracy. Right? It's just so

1:22:40

it's so alarming. I

1:22:43

can tell you that taking

1:22:45

that hat off because I'm hatched. I have no idea to the

1:22:47

hatchbacks, so I can't say anything partisan, but I'm

1:22:52

so optimistic and encouraged about being

1:22:54

in the position that I'm in right now because this movement toward

1:22:56

a clean energy future and

1:22:58

the jobs that will be created

1:23:02

especially bringing back manufacturing

1:23:04

jobs I believe has bipartisan

1:23:06

support. There are lots aspects

1:23:08

of this zero carbon economy that

1:23:10

actually do have bipartisan support. So

1:23:12

I'm enthused to be working

1:23:15

hand in glove on

1:23:17

that with all who care

1:23:19

about the future of our planet. I spent a lot of time

1:23:21

talking to voters in Michigan, and they do care

1:23:23

about the issues. They are very,

1:23:25

very savvy voters. They do

1:23:27

care about jobs jobs, and they do care

1:23:29

about the energy.

1:23:30

And I care about manufacturing jobs. And that's fine. Right. Love the inflation reduction act incentivizing all

1:23:32

those manufacturing jobs to come back. We're

1:23:34

so tired of seeing jobs go to

1:23:38

to China to, you know, of their

1:23:40

low wage places.

1:23:41

And what this does is it levels the

1:23:43

playing field and it brings back all these

1:23:45

manufacturing jobs to the United States in building out this

1:23:47

whole clean energy sector. It's so exciting. See,

1:23:49

you still you

1:23:50

can take off the hat and still

1:23:53

deliver the message better than than than

1:23:55

just about. Anybody else? It's nice. Very nice

1:23:57

to see you. Great to see you there.

1:23:59

in in New York today, Secretary of Energy,

1:24:02

Jennifer Crumholme. Thank you for being here with us.

1:24:04

Over the past few days, we

1:24:06

have seen we have covered the cruelty and the insanity of

1:24:09

the American

1:24:12

Republican Party We've watched it reach dizzying

1:24:14

and alarming new heights. And we've heard nothing. We actually loved. We tried.

1:24:16

We opened

1:24:17

our lines. We reached

1:24:19

out. There's been nothing. from

1:24:21

Republican party leaders after their former president fully embrace, publicly

1:24:24

embrace the dangerous

1:24:27

pune on conspiracy see.

1:24:30

Our friend Charlie Sykes will our guest a quick break tell from

1:24:32

here.

1:24:33

the

1:24:49

Our former president is

1:24:52

apparently now suggesting that

1:24:55

if he

1:24:55

is prostate cuted.

1:24:59

His supporters should stand up to our

1:25:01

constitutional order and the rule

1:25:03

of law.

1:25:05

Stand up and through whatever means

1:25:07

are needed, prevent

1:25:08

his prosecution, prevent the

1:25:10

application of the

1:25:13

law. It

1:25:14

is hard to see this as

1:25:16

anything but a direct threat to our constitution, to

1:25:18

our republic, and

1:25:19

a credible one at that.

1:25:20

the credible one that that One

1:25:23

can

1:25:23

only wonder, is this where the

1:25:25

Republican Party will go next, that

1:25:28

prosecution

1:25:28

is

1:25:30

inappropriate. because

1:25:31

MAGA WILL VIOLENTLY OPOSE

1:25:33

IT. IT'S

1:25:35

A DEVASTATING

1:25:36

AND TERRIFYING PRECISION

1:25:38

THERE AND FORCE BY CONGRESSON

1:25:40

is Cheney, but her own

1:25:42

party. Party that the exception of her and Adam

1:25:43

Kinzinger has at every turn

1:25:45

put its undying loyalty to

1:25:48

the express resident

1:25:51

over everything else. That's bringing Charlie

1:25:53

Sykes, editor at large of the

1:25:55

Bulwark, an MSNBC contributor. Two

1:25:58

things, III

1:25:59

sometimes don't expect to hear from

1:26:02

this zombie Republican Party, but I

1:26:04

actually did expect them

1:26:06

to stand up yesterday, especially people who

1:26:08

serve on the intelligence

1:26:10

committee or have any understanding

1:26:12

of the

1:26:14

threat environment in pre

1:26:16

your post nine eleven, pre your

1:26:18

post Oklahoma City, to see the

1:26:20

leader of their party playing

1:26:22

music under his remarks while the

1:26:25

people in the crowd held up

1:26:27

one finger. To not have

1:26:29

any rebuke, of the imagery to not

1:26:31

have any rebuke of the

1:26:34

the alignment with the

1:26:36

Q1 on brand and identity and mission.

1:26:38

Was to me almost the scariest thing that's happened yet? You know,

1:26:41

it's easy to get numbed by

1:26:43

this. You know,

1:26:43

you're you're your

1:26:47

program today has been fascinating. This is Peter Baker and Susan

1:26:49

Glasser who who remind us that we

1:26:51

have we what

1:26:53

we've known for years now that Donald Trump

1:26:55

is reckless. He's unstable. He's ignorant. He's immortal dishonest. And the

1:26:57

reality is that he's more dangerous

1:27:00

than ever.

1:27:02

He is now very openly threatening violence,

1:27:05

chaos, anarchy, if he

1:27:07

has held accountable in

1:27:09

the rule of law

1:27:11

he is embracing. one of the most dangerous

1:27:13

conspiracy theories out there. And I had the same reaction that

1:27:15

you had that that you

1:27:18

would think that if there

1:27:20

was any mythical red

1:27:22

line, any point at which the Trump would go too far for the Republican party. This would be

1:27:24

it because, you know,

1:27:27

you would think that on

1:27:30

Earth two point o, in a

1:27:32

rational political universe, you would have responsible Republicans saying, okay,

1:27:34

we are conservatives, we are Republicans, but you cannot

1:27:39

implicitly or explicitly threaten violence in

1:27:42

response to legal action.

1:27:44

You cannot do this.

1:27:46

It is dangerous to embrace

1:27:49

something as as extreme

1:27:51

as the QAnon conspiracy

1:27:53

theory. and it's been absolute crickets.

1:27:55

There's been absolutely nothing from any Republican. And

1:27:57

at this point, I suppose, Nicole, we can't

1:27:59

be surprised anymore. but

1:28:02

it is an indication of what what Donald

1:28:05

Trump has done to this this

1:28:07

party and what he is prepared to

1:28:09

do to the country because I do

1:28:11

think that and again, we've talked about this over the years.

1:28:13

Right now, I think it's very,

1:28:15

very clear that

1:28:18

Donald Trump hoses a much greater and more imminent

1:28:20

threat to the constitutional republic

1:28:22

than he ever has before And

1:28:27

and I and I think that we ought to take those those

1:28:29

threats in his intent to intimidate the

1:28:31

Department of Justice very,

1:28:34

very seriously. I'm

1:28:35

alarmed by what you're saying, but I'm so glad you're saying it. And

1:28:37

and let me just be clear, I don't

1:28:39

care about the modern Republican

1:28:41

party as a political

1:28:44

story. Right. I don't care how their senate

1:28:46

forecast look. I don't care how much money they

1:28:50

have. I do care. about the in the words of the current

1:28:52

FBI director appointed by Donald

1:28:54

Trump, the single greatest threat

1:28:56

to our homeland is domestic

1:28:58

violence extremism. And right now, single

1:29:02

greatest amplifier of extremist messages and iconography

1:29:04

is Donald Trump. Where

1:29:07

are all the people who

1:29:11

backed everything

1:29:11

that we did as a country to

1:29:14

protect ourselves after other attacks and

1:29:16

threats. Well,

1:29:19

again, this

1:29:19

this has become a this has become a

1:29:21

a story that we've seen over and over again. We're

1:29:23

seeing, you know, grown up Republicans, the

1:29:26

so called good Republicans who are rallying

1:29:28

around the most extreme candidates that are out

1:29:30

there, whether it's Blake Masters or Doug Mastiano. But I do think that this is really

1:29:32

a tale of the fact

1:29:34

that there's been absolutely no response

1:29:37

to what Donald Trump is saying. But I also think that this

1:29:39

is one of those key moments. I I also thought it's a

1:29:41

very interesting split screen

1:29:43

to listen to what

1:29:45

Marek Garland had to say the other day

1:29:47

at at Ellis I'm really glad that you played his speech where

1:29:51

he talked about the importance of

1:29:53

the rule of law, but the fragility of the rule of law, and how we can't

1:29:55

be afraid to advance the rule of

1:29:58

law. So here we have an

1:30:01

turning general who's drawing this

1:30:03

red line. In effect, not blinking Donald Trump, the

1:30:07

former president, is is basically saying,

1:30:09

you know, nice nice little democracy you have there. It'd be a shame if anything happened to

1:30:12

it. Let me show you what

1:30:14

Adam Kinzinger offered

1:30:15

up as an explanation.

1:30:18

I think people in many

1:30:21

cases fear more than they

1:30:23

fear death. They fear being kicked

1:30:25

out of their tribe. You know, we're

1:30:27

tribal people by nature anyway. It's evolutionary. But when

1:30:29

all of a sudden, the people that

1:30:31

you love lose respect

1:30:33

for you, her basically divorce you over

1:30:35

text message, whatever that is, that's a that's

1:30:37

a

1:30:37

terrible feeling I've lived it.

1:30:40

And and

1:30:40

I think

1:30:41

when you look that kind of stuff.

1:30:43

It explains why leaders don't lead. And

1:30:46

when leaders don't lead and

1:30:47

tell people the

1:30:49

truth, You can't imagine that the people

1:30:51

that follow them that actually look to them for

1:30:53

guidance that aren't hearing the

1:30:54

truth are gonna believe anything different. It's

1:30:57

a

1:30:58

really good explanation and

1:30:59

articulation. But what but what people don't realize is that I

1:31:01

I mean, I

1:31:04

I remember IN

1:31:06

two thousand fifteen CALLING DONALD TRUMP BUT DISGRACE. IT'S BLACK AND WHITE. IT WAS SO BINARY AND I WONDER THINK

1:31:11

THE PROSPERTS ARE for for

1:31:13

for more Adam Kinzinger's and more or less Chinese. I'm not hopeful. Now,

1:31:16

III wish I

1:31:18

could

1:31:18

be, but Adam Kinzinger's app

1:31:21

we write in describing this phenomenon. But you know, I was I was thinking as

1:31:23

I was listening to your previous segments,

1:31:28

though, they the sense of utility in

1:31:30

the Republican Party, people are thinking, look, if if Republican voters, if the base

1:31:32

is not going

1:31:35

to listen to General Mark Billy, if

1:31:38

it's not gonna listen to John Kelly, if it's not even gonna listen to Bill Barr, or these

1:31:40

other people that were

1:31:42

in positions to see exactly

1:31:44

what Donald

1:31:47

Trump was and how he behaved as

1:31:49

president. If if those people are not able to

1:31:51

move the needle, what

1:31:53

can I do to change the dynamic

1:31:56

other than to throw myself on a

1:31:58

political hand grenade like Liz Cheney. So

1:32:00

there is this this sense

1:32:02

of not not just power this, but the sense of futility

1:32:04

to do anything about it. But

1:32:06

this is a very, very dangerous

1:32:08

moment for America. And, you know,

1:32:10

III don't want to

1:32:13

I don't wanna have my hair on

1:32:15

fire here, but, you know, when you the former States with the

1:32:18

largest megaphone on the

1:32:20

right, OPENLY

1:32:22

TALKING ABOUT THE AMERICAN PEOPLE NOT

1:32:25

STANDING FOR SOMETHING. WE'VE SEEN THE POTENTIAL

1:32:27

FOR VIOLENCE. IN FACT, IT'S NOT

1:32:29

JUST POTENTIAL VIOLENCE. We've seen

1:32:31

individual crazed individuals who send pipe bombs

1:32:33

to people in the media. We've we've

1:32:35

seen people who shoot up

1:32:37

FBI buildings. we've seen what happened in

1:32:40

January sixth. This is

1:32:42

a real moment for

1:32:44

people to put country

1:32:45

over party and yet it feels naive to think

1:32:47

that it's going to happen

1:32:49

right now. And I

1:32:51

think mainly because They

1:32:54

watched other people with great great insight into Donald

1:32:56

Trump and his