0:00

Dear Governor is a production of I Heart

0:02

Media and three Months Media. If

0:05

you are moved by Jarvis Masters and his thirty

0:07

years struggle on San Quentin's death throw, and

0:09

you'd like to support his cause, please

0:12

consider signing a petition on his behalf.

0:14

Visit Free Jarvis dot org

0:17

slash podcast to sign your name

0:19

to an open letter to California Governor

0:21

Gavin Newsom,

0:23

Dear Governor Newsom, Dear

0:25

Mr Governor Newsom.

0:28

This is an open letter to Governor Gavin

0:30

Newsom. Dear Governor Newsom. As

0:42

we wind down season two of Dear Governor,

0:44

Jarvis Master's federal appeals process

0:47

is just winding up. The law firm

0:49

Kirkland and Ellis has assembled an ace team

0:51

of attorneys that will guide Jarvis

0:54

through the post appeals process with

0:56

great expectations that he will after

0:58

a lifetime in prison and celebrate

1:00

freedom once and for all. We

1:03

at Dear Governor will continue to follow Jarvis

1:05

and his fight for freedom. If you're

1:08

moved by Jarvis's personal story, we encourage

1:10

you to keep him in your thoughts, to pay attention

1:12

to his developments and engage

1:15

support system is critical to a successful

1:17

transition to the outside if

1:19

and when that day becomes real. Later

1:22

in the show, Jarvis answers some of your pressing

1:24

questions and curiosities. But up

1:26

next Jarvis's lead attorney,

1:28

a man for whom Jarvis is trusting his

1:31

life and future. My

1:34

name is Mike Williams. I'm a partner at

1:36

Kirkland and Ellis. I'm a partner in the

1:38

litigation practice, so I'm one of

1:40

the people who tends to go to court to try

1:42

cases. Typically, I

1:44

represent large corporations to in large

1:46

corporations, that happens more than cases

1:49

like jarvis Is that involved the death penalty. My

1:52

largest client to date was the Commonwealth

1:54

of Puerto Rico, So when they were sued

1:56

by their bond holders and creditors

1:58

and banks and on a line bond

2:01

insurers during their financial crisis in twenties

2:04

seventeen, I represented Puerto Rico

2:06

and those proceedings and making sure that these creditors

2:08

weren't allowed to seize property

2:10

in Puerto Rico and so there could be this orderly bankruptcy

2:13

practice. I represent a lot

2:15

of companies in a broad array of different

2:17

cases, but it's mostly commercial litigation

2:20

with a few exceptions, and some of those

2:22

exceptions are death penalty

2:24

cases like Jarvis's. There

2:26

was a case that I had handled. I

2:29

stuck with this client for about seven years

2:31

up and through the Virginia state

2:33

and federal courts. His name

2:35

was Ivon Telugus. He was one of the nine

2:38

people on Virginia's death row. By

2:41

the time Governor mccauliffe granted our petition

2:43

for clemency. We've gone through federal

2:45

proceedings, state proceedings, state proceedings

2:48

because the State of Virginia was actually

2:50

considering using the electric

2:52

chair against him when they couldn't find access

2:54

to the drugs that they needed for the lethal injections.

2:57

So this was an example of a case

2:59

where Van was also

3:01

actually innocent. It's very

3:03

very hard in federal courts to

3:05

unwind a state court conviction

3:08

and state abeous. That's where we are with Jarvis

3:10

now, and I've got to say, the facts have to be really stark

3:12

because of the deference that the federal courts tend

3:15

to give to state courts. In Ivan's

3:17

case, even though we stuck with him, it took

3:19

really a courageous move by Governor mccauloff

3:21

at the time to say this

3:24

man's innocent. I'll at least commute his death

3:26

sentence. So that was back in And

3:30

what percentage I mean, you're a global firm,

3:32

so what percentage of your cases are like

3:34

this our pro bono? How do you decide

3:37

which to take? I would assume there would be dozens

3:39

and hundreds of people wanting your representation.

3:42

It's it's that's one of the difficult parts

3:45

is because we're a

3:47

large law firm, we'd love to

3:49

take on more cases, but just

3:51

as a as a fact of life, so many of these cases

3:53

are so difficult, and so many of the cases the record

3:56

is so difficult. In many of these cases, the

3:58

client is difficult to reach and differ pope

4:00

to contact for lots of reasons.

4:03

It also has to be a case where even

4:06

though it's very rare for somebody who's

4:08

on death row to have been served well by counsel

4:10

before it reaches the federal courts, there

4:12

are a lot of cases not this one, where

4:15

we found that state council is actually

4:17

almost an obstacle to get in relief. And

4:19

just to give you an example there, very

4:21

recently we had another

4:24

death penalty case in Brazoria County, Texas,

4:26

on behalf of a fellow who was intellectually

4:29

disabled. And this is

4:31

this is really the story of somebody's worst state

4:33

corney because James Harris

4:35

was intellectually disabled, had drug

4:38

addiction issues, had a terrible

4:40

day where he was locked out of the motel where he was

4:42

living, and he just in

4:44

a fit of rage, he committed acts

4:47

of violence that he never would have committed

4:49

under other circumstances. He

4:51

had tried to plead innocent, plead guilty

4:54

rather with the d A. The d

4:56

A cut off PLEA negotiations

4:58

and force him to take the case to try ill and

5:00

he was sent to trial in Texas State

5:03

court without anybody ever raising the defense

5:05

of intellectual disability. An intellectual

5:07

disability in our system, under our constitutional

5:10

system, that's mitigation per se. You're

5:12

not allowed to execute somebody under

5:14

the Eighth Amendment if they're intellectually disabled. Nobody

5:17

ever raised that defense, and

5:19

so I used this as a case because it was

5:21

another recent death penalty case that we handled.

5:24

But we got a call from the American Bar Association

5:26

where they said there's a case. It's going

5:28

to a hearing in four months. And

5:31

this is before the holidays, so you know, takes

5:33

us over Thanksgiving takes us over Christmas.

5:35

There are very few firms like Kirkland

5:38

and Ellis that have the resources to do that anyway.

5:40

And then it's an even smaller vent diagram when

5:42

you talk about the firms that are willing to do it,

5:44

that have the capabilities of doing it in terms of experience.

5:47

So we were really lucky to get that case. Just

5:50

a few months ago in March,

5:52

we got a ruling that vacated recommended

5:55

that we vacate James's death sense, So there was

5:57

another win. But it still has to go up

5:59

to the TECH to his Court of Criminal Appeals, which could

6:01

reverse that. I think we've got a good factual

6:04

record and the Texas Court of Criminal Appeals

6:06

decides these cases at their own pace. But

6:09

again that's an example of you know, you asked, how do these

6:11

cases come to Kirkland? A lot of times it takes

6:13

somebody like the A, B, A or somebody to say

6:16

not just this is a good case,

6:18

but also this is the sort of case where Kirkland should

6:20

get involved. How did Jarvis

6:22

come to your um? How did you

6:25

learn about him? So we have We're

6:27

fortunate Kirkland. We have a great

6:30

partnership, we have great lawyers who

6:32

are associates, not partners. And

6:34

then we also have lawyers who are affiliated with Kirkland

6:36

and Ellis. And one of those lawyers who is affiliated

6:39

with Kirkland and Ellison of council position

6:41

is Larry Marshall, who's one of the foremost

6:43

professors on the planet in terms

6:46

of innocence, sentencing, criminal

6:48

law, criminal justice, I mean a whole host

6:50

of issues. When I start talking about Larry's expertise,

6:53

it's not to it's not even to try

6:55

to exhaust it, because he's just that good

6:57

of a law professor, and he's just the sort of smart

7:00

person that you want to be lacoll if

7:02

you're working at a law firm that reaches tony positions

7:04

like this. And I understand that

7:06

Larry got a call not from the A B A, but from

7:09

Oprah Winfrey. And when Oprah asks

7:11

for assistance from a law firm, the

7:13

law firm pays attention. And so this

7:15

is it's a sort of story that Larry would

7:18

tell better than I would. But when you get a call that

7:20

says, would you please hold for Oprah Winfrey

7:22

and Brian Stephenson, you this

7:25

this better be good. I better take a seat Jarvis

7:27

Masters. I said this to

7:30

several good friends of mine. If

7:32

I lose with these guys her

7:35

glean analysis, I've never had a chance

7:37

of winning because this law

7:39

firm is very, very good. And

7:42

my conversations with Larry Marshall

7:44

just gave me the confidence that he

7:47

knew the case and he was going to find the

7:49

best people to you know, represent me.

7:52

And he's one of the few lawyers

7:54

that in my life I totally

7:56

trusted. So it was

7:58

just a relief. I didn't ever, I didn't do

8:00

anything but just trust in, you

8:03

know, in my innocence to find

8:05

the right people that represent me. And that's what happened.

8:07

So why do you think they took on your

8:10

case because they're a huge international

8:12

team, global firm.

8:15

But that they knew that I was innocent. That's

8:18

that's the bottom line, and that that was the That

8:21

was everything that I thought

8:23

would would determine if they would

8:25

take my case or not. Did they see

8:27

my innocence right there?

8:30

Did they research my innocence right

8:32

there? And when they took on my case,

8:35

I finally had someone who would really

8:37

really believed in me,

8:40

and I just felt, you know what, I

8:43

have the best law

8:45

firm that I can be fine

8:47

in my life and in my situation,

8:50

and from there, I just let it go. You know. I

8:52

just give my faith to this law

8:55

firm to do whatever they need to do to get

8:57

me out of here. And what I would

8:59

do is that he promised

9:01

myself that I won't die

9:03

in here. Uh,

9:05

you know, I'll be able to leave here with

9:08

a lot of my sanity in place.

9:11

What does the team look like that you have put

9:13

together to support Jarvis. We

9:16

have a team that it's a cross

9:18

offices. It's one of the things that I'm happiest about.

9:20

Because Jarvis's cases bending in California,

9:23

we're able to draw upon some of our best partners

9:26

and associates in our Bay area offices.

9:29

Leading the team with me is a lawyer named

9:31

Erica Williams who was in the Obama

9:34

White House Council's office. She was

9:36

in senior positions in the Securities Exchange

9:39

Commission. Death penalty cases

9:41

aren't her expertise, but she was

9:43

also leading the team with me on James

9:45

Harris's case in Texas that I was just describing.

9:48

So, Erica is a gifted lawyer who has

9:50

an amazing courtroom presence. She's an

9:52

amazing strategic sense. And she's

9:54

one of those lawyers who when I call Eric

9:56

and I say we've got a case, and Marie Marshall

9:58

said that this is when we should take Erica is

10:00

like one of the first people to say, of course, I'd

10:02

get involved. So it's it's good to have her

10:05

involved. But then also just a really talented

10:07

team in our In our office in San

10:09

Francisco, we have Ashley little Field

10:11

and Austin Clark, who are two of our

10:14

up and coming, really talented

10:16

partners who are helping lead the team

10:18

in the day to day efforts. They

10:20

know California courts, they know California law,

10:22

They've actually appeared in front of our judge before, so

10:24

all of that is very helpful and leading a team a

10:27

fairly large team of associate lawyers

10:29

and also legal assistants, and all the resources

10:31

that we have here at Kirkland. All told,

10:33

our team is about i'd say about

10:36

twenty lawyers, which is very large for a

10:38

Kirkland case. You know, even our chemical

10:40

company cases, you know, we we tend not to staff

10:42

them that large. But here, I mean, it's

10:45

an important case and there are lots of people

10:47

who want to get behind it. Yeah. Yeah,

10:49

I would imagine you took him on

10:51

or you signed on Jarvis just prior

10:54

to the outbreak of COVID. So how has

10:57

that impacted your representation

10:59

of him? You know, it's it's

11:02

really made the challenges exponential.

11:05

And I just talked about a case

11:07

in Missoria County, Texas that was pre COVID,

11:10

where we could, over the course of four months,

11:12

take that team of twenty lawyers or what have you,

11:15

and spread out over east southeast

11:17

Texas and conduct an investigation here.

11:20

Because so many of the witnesses are in an institutional

11:22

setting, and because COVID had completely

11:24

locked us out from those institutional settings,

11:27

that's led to real challenges. On

11:29

the other hand, and Jarvis's case, one

11:31

of the things that I think is a real advantage

11:34

for us is that I

11:36

think the procedural problems, the constitutional

11:39

deficiencies, and his state proceedings

11:42

are pretty clear from the record

11:44

below. You know, we we

11:46

we can bring facts to the court, We

11:48

can bring evidence to the court that would help the court

11:50

decide these cases in our favor. We can show

11:52

where the state court made errors even

11:54

involving facts. But there

11:56

are certain principles about not

11:59

being able to use state procedural

12:01

rules, you know, what can be admitted into evidence

12:04

to create a constitutional violation,

12:06

and that's what happened in Jarvis's case. So,

12:09

while it's unfortunate we haven't been able to

12:12

spend more time in sam Quentin and speak to people

12:14

there, one of the benefits of Jarvis's cases

12:17

is that it's pretty clear what these constitutional problems

12:19

are just based on the face of the record that's there.

12:32

Will you be hiring an investigator

12:35

to go back and look at the facts of

12:37

the original case, or

12:39

is this more specifically about the

12:41

constitutional issues that dealt

12:43

with the case? And it's it's all the above corny

12:46

because we are you know, we're compiling

12:48

the facts and we've got people that you know,

12:50

I don't want to talk too much about the investigation,

12:52

but I will say it's both there's a factual

12:54

challenge that I think is pretty important, and

12:57

then there's also, fortunately in Jarvis's

12:59

cases, there is also this black letter legal challenge

13:02

units in James's case, just to give

13:04

you a counterexample. In James's

13:06

case, we had to go and we had

13:08

to speak to his aunt to say, tell

13:10

us when he was growing up, we had to

13:13

go to his high school yearbooks and

13:15

find people who were on his football team and match up

13:17

the photos with the captions and say what

13:19

can you tell us about James? And over the course

13:21

of this investigation, we found out that

13:24

James had a niece who

13:27

is intellectually disabled and was actually a

13:29

special Olympian, and nobody had ever said,

13:31

wait, James, you have a niece who is a special

13:33

Olympian who's intellectually disabled, who's

13:36

close to you personally. Nobody

13:38

had ever asked about this before. Of

13:40

course, nobody raised your intellectual disability defense.

13:43

With Jarvis, the set of

13:45

witnesses is somewhat more cohesive, and

13:48

it's also a little bit better explored

13:51

because he had really good lawyers working

13:53

for him before, you know, lawyers who were trying to

13:55

do the right thing. Yeah, So

13:58

there's the legal issues that are based on the actual

14:00

record that they've created. Those legal issues

14:02

are pretty stark. I mean, when you're not willing to

14:04

listen to testimony because you're just saying,

14:07

I'm tired of this, I'm gonna hang up the phone, I mean, that's

14:09

probably an unfair caricature, but that's that's an

14:11

example of a legal issue that we can raise

14:13

on the existing record, but the factual investigation

14:15

is also a piece of that. So where do

14:18

you go from here? What is the best

14:20

case scenario? What are kind of the next steps

14:22

that we can anticipate, and how can our listeners support

14:25

you or or support Jarvis

14:27

in any way, shape or form. Well,

14:29

so where we go from here? We filed

14:32

our petition, our federal habeas petition,

14:34

and I think that it lays out in

14:37

I hope, in readable language for

14:39

anybody who's not a lawyer. Doesn't

14:42

you know, isn't you know? Isn't

14:44

steeped in what you know Chambers

14:46

versus you know what what the Chambers case means, what the

14:48

Brady case means. But I hope that

14:50

it says in in fairly straightforward

14:52

terms what went wrong at Jarvis's earlier

14:55

proceeding. I think it also makes a good

14:57

case for actual innocence as well. So

15:00

we've got we filed our petition. At this point, we're

15:02

still waiting for the state to file its answer. I

15:04

mean, that's that's how this proceeds. As we file

15:06

our petition, the state files its answer,

15:09

we file what's called the traverse, which is just basically

15:11

an answer to the state's answer that's not usually as

15:13

important. And then from there, one

15:15

or both sides might see this case up either

15:17

for an evidentiary hearing where we put on evidence,

15:20

or the state might move for some rejudgment and

15:22

say, even based on everything that they alleged,

15:25

we think this is so clear a case that you should deny relief.

15:27

So those are the next steps. And because

15:30

because the state has been so slow and filing

15:33

their answer, we've really got

15:35

some questions about what they're going to say. They were supposed

15:37

to file it in July thirty one,

15:40

and we just received an email yesterday

15:42

asking for another week. Now. I get the

15:44

state has all kinds of resource issues too,

15:47

but it also prompts the question, Corny,

15:50

if you've got those sort of resource issues,

15:52

why are you fighting this so hard? You

15:54

know, if we've got a man who's got this even

15:58

you don't know Jarvis, you've never met

16:00

him, you don't know who he is, You've

16:04

still got this claim of innocence

16:07

in California, why are

16:09

you pushing forward with the death penalty here?

16:12

You know? And I don't want to sound flip,

16:14

and I don't want to sound disrespectful,

16:16

but like, why the blood bust, Like, what in

16:19

the world would make you push so hard to make

16:21

sure that Jarvis, with all of these procedural

16:23

problems and with the showing of actual innocence,

16:26

why are you fighting to keep him on death row? And

16:28

I mean, it's a question that I hope gets answered at some

16:30

point, but at this point, we just like to see

16:32

what the response is by the State of California.

16:35

Is there a time limit in which they have to answer

16:37

you? At this point, they've extended the time

16:39

limit, and you know, in federal

16:41

courts, and with good reason, judges tend

16:43

to be very lenient

16:46

with extensions in cases like this. And

16:48

typically, as somebody who's represented people who are

16:50

on death row, ordinarily, when the state

16:52

asked for an extension, we know we can't really oppose

16:54

it. And for many of my other cases, execution

16:57

was imminent. You know, when the state of recipent extension,

16:59

it's like, well, great, that's another two weeks that

17:01

we don't have to worry about somebody issuing a death war.

17:04

Sure, but since the moratorium zon in California,

17:06

that's not an issue. That's right, but the

17:08

federal judge will well, ordinarily

17:11

we just assume it's very difficult when

17:14

the state can say I've got COVID, I've

17:16

got a docket. You know, he's on death

17:18

row. But you know, so it's it's very

17:20

hard for us to to oppose an extension by

17:22

the state. It breaks

17:25

my heart because I mean, his his whole

17:27

the whole state process for the habeas

17:29

the filing and then the oral arguments

17:31

that was decades before he got an answer,

17:34

and he's just this is just not a speedy

17:36

trial that he's guaranteed by the by

17:38

the constitution. Huh no. And it's

17:40

it's it's something that it's hard

17:43

because I know every day that Jarvis

17:45

is on death row is another day that

17:47

an injustice is being committed. And

17:49

yet at the same time, we don't want to say to a

17:51

judge or to any decision maker, please

17:53

hurry up and give us. We don't want a fast

17:55

answer despite all the challenges

17:57

of remaining on death row when you don't belong there. We

18:00

really want the right answer, and so that's what we hope

18:02

we can convey to the judge. Was

18:05

there anything that that the listeners can do to support

18:07

or follow We have a petition

18:10

on free Jervis dot org that people

18:12

can go and sign and it's basically

18:14

just an open letter to Governor Newsom. But

18:16

is there anything above and beyond that and that

18:18

we can do as a podcast to help, you

18:21

know, I I hope everybody keeps

18:23

listening. And I hate to

18:25

go on and on about stories like this,

18:27

but I've had death row

18:29

clients who had been executed. I had

18:31

the first one just during COVID and

18:33

this was a man who was on federal death row

18:36

and even though he had a shocking

18:38

procedural story, he was executed

18:41

in June and the federal death Row in Terra

18:43

Haut, Indiana. He died in obscurity.

18:45

I mean, he was a person who had these

18:48

really significant constitutional claims

18:50

and I had only represented him before the Supreme

18:52

Court of the United States, but he was very

18:54

well represented by amazing habeas counsel

18:57

during federal habeas proceedings, and

19:00

the Supreme Court doesn't have to take a case. And

19:02

so you know this, this, this client

19:04

of mine was executed, and there were a

19:06

couple of ap stories. You know, the federal government

19:09

just executed somebody, and there was his picture

19:11

and there was a video of his mother saying,

19:13

please don't execute my son for a crime that

19:15

he committed when he was nineteen, but

19:17

he basically died in obscurity. So

19:19

when I started by talking about how special a case

19:22

Jarvis was, a big part of it is

19:24

there's Jarvis, but there's also all these people

19:26

who support Jarvis. And if there's going to

19:28

be a change, whether it's in Jarvis's

19:30

case or whether it's in the application of the

19:32

death penalty, more generally, it's going

19:34

to come from people who care. So I'd say,

19:37

just by virtual the fact that Jarvis has supporters,

19:39

people who would listen to a podcast and pay

19:41

attention to this case, that puts Jarvis

19:44

in an entirely different category from

19:48

of anybody who's on death row, and almost

19:50

certainly from anybody who's got these sort of

19:52

injustices that have been committed in his proceedings.

19:55

So I see the thing that you can really do. I know it's not above

19:57

and beyond, but especially for now, it was

19:59

just stay engaged. You know,

20:02

as a lawyer, I want to win this case

20:04

in the courtroom, and so I would never say now

20:07

is the time to start writing letters to the editors.

20:09

That's not my lane, you know. My lane is let's

20:11

put forward the best case that we can let's put forward a

20:13

team that can win this case for Jarvis. I

20:15

have to say, it's a real shot in the arm to know that there's

20:17

somebody who cares and that we're going

20:19

to do our best to win. And I'm confident that we're

20:22

going to win. But to know that Jarvis has people

20:24

who care about him, that makes all the difference in

20:26

the world in a case like this, and that's to his lawyer.

20:28

I can only imagine with me for Jarvis, well,

20:31

David Cheff, who wrote The Buddhist on Death Row,

20:33

the latest biography, and I have committed

20:36

to host a freedom party

20:38

when you succeed in getting him out. So I

20:41

hope you will be a v I

20:43

P. You will be a v I P at our

20:45

party. Listen, I'll be bartender

20:48

at your party. I don't need to be a v I P. And

20:50

we've got a Kirkland team that's so large

20:52

you can't have as all as as V I P. So you

20:54

know, it's it's a hard it's

20:56

a hard system to beat in the federal

20:58

courts. But I think of

21:00

the cases that I've seen and of the clients

21:03

that I've seen, I mean, this is one that

21:05

the federal courts really should make right. So

21:07

I always get very nervous when I talk about

21:09

pending cases, and especially pending cases like this

21:11

where I don't even know what the state's going to say yet. But

21:14

I will say, I mean, just knowing Jarvis and knowing

21:16

the facts and knowing the law, there's a reason

21:18

why Kirkland took this on, and there's a reason why people

21:20

support Jarvis, and it's because this

21:23

is the sort of case that should send a message

21:25

to the system that things go wrong. Well

21:27

Amen, Amen, good Corny, and

21:29

thanks for everything you do. I mean, I know I keep saying

21:32

this, but it really does make all the difference in the

21:34

world. I mean, it's it's

21:36

just terrible. I can say from

21:38

from Christopher's case, which is the client I'm talking

21:40

about, to you know, pour your heart

21:43

and soul into pleadings and and

21:45

and convincing yourself and then trying to convince

21:47

the court and saying this shouldn't happen,

21:49

and then the Supreme Court denies review and he's executed,

21:52

and it's like, did this even make a difference at

21:54

all? The effort? You know, I had a team on that one too, And

21:57

did this make a difference? And here, it's

21:59

like knowing that Jarvis has people who

22:01

care, who are watching, and who are speaking to him.

22:04

That really makes a difference, not just for Jarvis's

22:06

case, but for all of this. Absolutely,

22:09

thanks for everything you do. Point Thank

22:11

you to Absolutely and U. I'll

22:13

be waiting for your firetending skills.

22:16

Thanks to take care. Okay

22:30

by My name is Tyler from Atlanta, Georgia,

22:32

and I wanted to ask Jarvis. After

22:35

all the complicated legal

22:37

battles and issues

22:40

around people not believing

22:42

that your innocence, what thought

22:44

brings you peace? What do you think

22:47

of you when you want to find peace with

22:49

the world that seems so frustratingly

22:51

cool and unjust meditation?

22:56

I think the ability to sit down with

22:59

both the good and bad does

23:03

a lot to help me find that interfeace.

23:06

I think there's always have to

23:08

be something good about the worst things

23:11

that are bad. And

23:13

I definitely felt that when when

23:16

COVID hit sand Quick, Where do I

23:18

find my piece? You know? And my

23:20

piece was to let it go

23:22

through me? What does that mean? Let go through

23:24

you? Knowing that I

23:27

knew that this was

23:29

something that I couldn't fight, This

23:32

was something that they were not going

23:34

to medicate me to keep me from

23:36

catching it. I had assessed

23:39

that San Quentin didn't know what to do. I

23:41

didn't panic. I just said,

23:43

you know, I'm gonna let this, whatever it

23:45

does, go through me, COVID

23:48

go through me. I was not going to

23:51

try to fight it, you know, I was just

23:53

gonna let let my Buddhist

23:55

practice give me an idea was

23:57

the best way I can deal with this. That you

24:00

have a place in your brain that you go,

24:02

Like for me sometimes it's

24:05

when I'm stressed out or whatever, Like I'll

24:07

go to like the beach in my brain, you

24:09

know, visit a peaceful place. Do you have

24:11

any place you go or is it just a

24:14

mantra? This is what I'm

24:16

doing. I just noticed it's not long ago.

24:18

Whenever I feel really bad about something,

24:21

really depressed, and I don't think meditation is

24:23

gonna who's going to address

24:25

the issue. And I think that's what

24:27

the question was really asked of me.

24:30

I create good conversations with people,

24:32

you know, I really do. I

24:35

create good conversations. I'll bring up

24:37

something that would just put everybody

24:39

involved in the conversation, whether it's

24:41

a football game or something, and

24:44

we're all talking about this you

24:46

know, and it can go on for an hour or

24:48

two hours, you know, and

24:51

somewhere in between these conversations,

24:53

I just looms that

24:56

that thing about feeling really really

24:58

you know, depressed, are set at them, you

25:00

know or something. So that's where I

25:02

really go to. I've noticed

25:04

myself doing that a lot. Can

25:07

you talk to the guys like through yourself?

25:09

Is that how you communicate with them?

25:12

Yeah, I'm sitting at my cell door and I

25:14

will throw something out

25:16

there and we

25:18

talked about it, you know, and it maybe ten fifteen

25:21

people involved in conversation, maybe

25:23

even more, but we're talking

25:25

over each other, but we can hear each other. We

25:28

have that ability to do

25:31

that. You know, sometimes

25:33

when you hear the noise, you think everyone's making noisely

25:35

everyone's really talking to each other, and

25:37

they can not

25:40

the noise and not even pay attention to them. You

25:42

know, that someone else's noise, not my noise.

25:45

After editude, I visioned it. I envisioned

25:47

someone getting real frustrated. And

25:50

what they do is they call a friend, someone

25:53

of best friends, someone who they

25:55

don't have to worry about using

25:58

the correct speak each our words

26:00

to get across what they feel most

26:03

frustrated about m h. We

26:06

do that here, I know I do that. There's

26:09

people that I talked to like that. You

26:12

know. I would say, hey man, let me bounce this off

26:14

the wall and tell me what you think about this, you

26:16

know, and I would get their

26:18

advice. And most times I get the advice

26:21

that I'm not looking for. But it's good to

26:23

think about. There's certain guys that just

26:25

weigh in when you do want them to. Yeah,

26:28

but that would be my purpose to everyone

26:33

jump into this. Please give

26:35

my my mouth some stuff from going

26:37

through. You jump

26:40

in, man, you know, just just you

26:42

know, yeah, hey man, more noise

26:45

you make the better this is gonna feel, you

26:47

know. I think it helps for everybody. I think everyone

26:49

has someone they call when you know, when the

26:51

workplace is not doing treating

26:54

him well, or when you know there's

26:56

spouse problems

26:58

or whatever. You know, there's someone

27:01

that we always called, you know, um,

27:05

And that's the same way here. You know. I'm grateful

27:07

that I can bounce things off of certain

27:10

people. And I really really

27:12

think Tyler Tyler for his call. I thought

27:14

it was a good question. And often

27:17

I get that question about how do I find

27:19

some measure of peace and

27:22

all this chaoffs, you know, and

27:24

all this other stuff, and it's a constant

27:26

practice and kind

27:28

of made a really really great question.

27:32

Hi. My name is Sophia.

27:35

I grew up Catholic, and

27:37

within my religious organization

27:40

and affiliation, we have always been

27:42

taught to be pro life. Presently,

27:45

I have never made my

27:47

own opinion on whether

27:50

I'm against or for the death penalty.

27:53

But I was really moved by something

27:55

Jarvis had said, and he said, um,

27:58

I have technology, the fact that I have her people,

28:00

and I was really moved by that that he was, I

28:03

guess, taking accountability for whatever

28:06

he has done. I

28:08

have been researching Jervis's case

28:12

and I find it very shocking

28:14

that Jarvis ended up on death row.

28:17

I see that there's so

28:19

many questions of jarvis

28:22

case, especially

28:24

fact that he might not have participated

28:27

in the direct murder of a cop.

28:29

How is it that we could can compare

28:33

Jarvis's conviction to

28:35

that of a serial killer? How

28:37

does it feel to be put

28:40

on death row with other people that have committed

28:43

probably even more hain his crimes and

28:46

at the end of the day, they are being given

28:48

the same punishment despite having a completely

28:50

different crime. So

28:53

that's my question. I think,

28:56

Um, I

28:58

think sometimes when you're forced live with

29:00

people, you're forced to live with people. But

29:03

you know, for me, I found

29:06

it very interesting to just look

29:08

at people, you know and see, wow, you know,

29:10

there's Scott Peterson, there's this, and there's

29:13

that, you know, and then I

29:16

look for the differences than me. For

29:19

me, you know, what is the difference between this

29:21

person and this person and a

29:24

lot of the stuff that they're on death row

29:26

for you tend to see, you know, it's very

29:29

Remember I wrote a story about the guy,

29:31

me and this guy playing chess, you

29:34

know, and he always

29:36

would try to trap me and but not

29:38

just win the game, just trapped me in a

29:40

corner. Um.

29:44

Now that you know, I meet people

29:46

like you know, you know, these serial

29:48

killers. I I'm so glad

29:51

in all honesty that I'm not there. You

29:54

know, that's where I walk

29:56

away from. You know, Wow, I'm

29:58

so glad I'm not there. You know, we're both

30:00

on death road. But I don't know what is

30:03

in his mind, you know, what's

30:05

what's going on with him? You know. Me, I'm

30:08

trying to write a book. Me, I'm trying

30:10

to do this and it doesn't

30:12

make me better or worse. I don't look at

30:14

it that way. It's just, wow,

30:16

my sanity is

30:19

something that really really need to protect,

30:22

you know, in

30:24

many ways, I'm very very scared about,

30:27

you know, this place turning

30:29

to me crazy. And

30:31

if anything scares me more

30:33

than is being uh,

30:37

it was in my mind. You know, I'm

30:40

so scared to lose my mind. And

30:43

after so many years, you can't

30:45

to believe that, you know, it might

30:47

just happen. What do you think

30:50

kept seeing all this time? That

30:52

is a question that that's like

30:54

a corn I don't know. I

30:57

don't know what it is. I know it's

31:00

people like you. Is

31:03

the support I have on the outside, is

31:06

constantly being a communication with

31:08

friends. But you

31:10

know, this book is still hard to cell,

31:12

is still small. I can stand up and touch

31:14

the ceiling, you know. I can put my arms

31:16

out and touch both walls. And I

31:20

see a bar that gets locked beyond

31:23

the locked door that cannot be

31:25

opened unless the world have

31:27

the keys. So I think, how

31:30

you know? But to your

31:32

question, I don't know what it is. I

31:34

used to say I'm crazy, because

31:37

I'm not crazy. One

31:40

thing I do know, and I think this goes

31:43

really to the heart of her question is

31:46

that a lot of people on death row,

31:49

they're sick. And if there were

31:51

more hospitals, if mental hospitals

31:54

would still be, you know, as

31:56

they used to be, you know, many of

31:59

them, a lot of these guys would

32:01

not be on death row, they would be at the hospitals,

32:03

there would be mental hospitals. So,

32:06

you know, sometimes I look at him and I just noticed

32:08

it. You know, their minds a just shot

32:10

out. But you know, I

32:14

get along with mostly

32:16

everybody. You know, I'm

32:18

just socially that way. You know, I'm wired

32:21

up that way. You know, I can get

32:23

in the conversation with somebody I think is

32:25

totally out of his mind. But I just

32:27

stayed there for two hours and talk to him.

32:30

And I know that some of these people and I know

32:32

they're sit I know they're tormented. It's

32:35

the fact. This

32:41

episode was written and produced by Donni

32:43

Fazzari and myself, Corny Cole. Our

32:45

theme song sentenced is compliments

32:47

of the band Stick Figure from their album

32:50

Set in Stone. Stu Sternbach

32:52

composed the original music. Nate

32:54

Deft did the sound design. For

32:57

more information on Jarvis and to find out

32:59

how you can follow his case and support his

33:01

cause, please visit free

33:03

Jarvis dot org For more

33:05

podcasts. For my heart Radio, visit

33:08

the I Heart Radio app, Apple

33:10

Podcasts, or wherever you listen to

33:12

your favorite shows. In

33:16

your mind, the first night that you're

33:19

out, where you're stay, have you imagined

33:21

that I'll

33:23

probably stay outside outside?

33:28

Yeah? Why?

33:32

Because I haven't seen the

33:34

dark outside these buildings for thirty

33:38

forty years, maybe

33:40

one time. So I want

33:42

to stay outside

33:46

in a tent. I

33:50

don't know. I just want to be outside. Yeah,

33:54

is that that simple? I just want to be outside

33:57

where I am. I want to be outside.

34:00

You have sixty seconds remaining? Wow,

34:05

there something wrong with that? Not at

34:07

all, not at all. I guess it's

34:09

just something that that I take for granted

34:12

on the outside, and the

34:14

fact that that's the first place you'd

34:16

want to be. I would imagine shelter,

34:19

But you want anything but shelter, right.

34:22

I don't want to be in no once. I don't want to be inside

34:25

anything but outside. Yes, that's

34:27

the fact.