0:00

Dear Governor is a production of I Heart

0:02

Media and three Months Media. If

0:05

you are moved by Jarvis Masters and his thirty

0:07

years struggle on San Quentin's Death Throw, and

0:09

you'd like to support his cause, please

0:12

consider signing a petition on his behalf.

0:14

Visit free Jarvis dot org

0:17

slash podcast to sign your name

0:19

to an open letter to California Governor

0:21

Gavin Newsom,

0:23

Dear Governor Newsom, Dear

0:25

Mr Governor Newsom.

0:28

This is an open letter to Governor Gavin

0:30

Newsom, Dear Governor news Public.

0:43

Though physically confined by as nine

0:45

by four sell for over forty years, Jarvis

0:48

Masters has managed to reach far beyond

0:50

the thick walls and razor wires of San Quentin.

0:53

Due to his unique perspective, strong opinions,

0:56

and prolific writings, he has become

0:58

a sought after contributor for very a social

1:00

justice and Buddhist oriented organizations.

1:03

Recently, the Awake Network and Shambala

1:06

Publications hosted a free online

1:08

event, the Black and Buddhist

1:10

Summit, that attracted over ten thousand

1:13

participants. Pamela Ioya

1:15

Tunde, a pastoral counselor,

1:18

chaplain and co editor of

1:20

Black and Buddhist What Buddhism

1:22

can teach us about race, resilience,

1:24

transformation and healing. Hosted

1:27

the summit and invited Jarvis to participate.

1:30

There are so many Buddhists authors

1:32

out there. Why Jarvis? What drew

1:34

to Jarvis? Yeah? You know, I think

1:37

I first heard about

1:39

Jarvis when I worked

1:41

for short period time with the National Coalition

1:43

to a policy death penalty. This

1:46

was back in the late eight days or

1:48

early nineties. And then

1:52

encountered his writings

1:54

again when I was in the Sati Center

1:56

for Buddhist Studies chaplaincy program

2:00

m in the early two thousand's. And

2:03

then as we were thinking about what

2:05

subjects we wanted to address during

2:08

the summit, I said, well, you know the

2:10

fact that there's so many African Americans

2:13

in prison, and we know

2:15

that the people learn uh

2:17

to hone their skills, writing

2:19

skills in prison. People often find

2:23

a new way of life for religion or spirituality

2:26

in prison. There must be African

2:30

descended Buddhist practitioners who were writers

2:32

in prison, and them boom, you know, Jarvis

2:35

came to mind, and so that's how and so

2:37

we reached out through you. Yeah,

2:41

he he is a he's a prolific

2:43

writer and thinker for sure.

2:46

I remember I was in a Buddhist

2:48

gathering and I was

2:50

talking with someone and we're talking about, oh, you

2:52

know, the Black and Buddhist Some of that was so wonderful.

2:55

And this person very

2:57

slowly raised up

3:01

her copy of Finding

3:03

Freedom and held

3:05

it like this, and

3:07

then slowly brought it down and

3:10

just said, Wow, that

3:14

was some of the most significant

3:17

dharma teaching I have ever received.

3:20

And this person is a dharma teacher.

3:23

Yeah. I think

3:26

now more than ever in my life

3:28

anyway, thanks to the work of

3:30

Brian Stevenson and others,

3:33

that people are accepting

3:35

the fact that there have

3:37

been many people wrongly accused,

3:40

many people spending

3:43

decades behind bars for

3:45

something they didn't do. And

3:47

so maybe that's on the other side of society

3:50

becoming more violent, we're also waking

3:52

up to the injustices of our

3:54

criminal justice system,

3:57

and maybe there's a little more grace around

4:00

that. Following

4:02

is the full conversation that Jarvis and I had,

4:05

which was streamed during the Black and Buddhist

4:07

Summit, in which he shares his thoughts

4:09

about how Buddhism plays an important role

4:11

in the lives of black Americans who

4:13

are or have been incarcerated.

4:16

I am Jarvis Masters. I've

4:19

been in San Quentin for close

4:22

to forty years. A few months short of

4:24

that. I

4:27

became a Buddhist in nineteen one,

4:30

I think her two. I've

4:33

written two books, one Finding Freedom

4:36

and the other is That Bird

4:38

Has My Wings. I

4:41

have various teachers, and all my

4:43

teachers have given me the

4:45

benefit of their experience

4:48

in the last thirty years, and I've been

4:51

using those experiences in prison

4:53

as much as they fit

4:56

the circumstances that we live

4:58

in. How did you

5:00

get introduced to Buddhism back in or

5:02

ninety How did you find it? I

5:06

was waiting to see if I

5:08

was going to receive the death sentence for

5:12

the death of a sergeant, Sergeant

5:14

Burstfield, and said Quentin. That occurred

5:16

in and

5:20

my friend and

5:23

teacher, one of my teachers,

5:25

Melo D. Armor Child thought,

5:27

because I was down there and the holding think

5:29

that I might want to read

5:32

a magazine that was familiar to her.

5:34

And it was called Inquiring Mind,

5:37

An Insight, Inquiring Mind. They

5:40

had this little clip

5:43

and it said free

5:45

book. In the name of the book was

5:48

Life and Relationship to Death. And I

5:50

sat there and read it for

5:52

almost a week. Why my why

5:55

the jurys and deliberation, and

5:58

I just thought, hey, you know, let me

6:00

try this, you know, life and relationship

6:02

to death. You know, it

6:05

was where I was. You know, I

6:07

wasn't there because because

6:10

of my trial. I was there. I realized

6:13

that name because of my whole life

6:15

history, and I

6:17

took heart to that, and eventually

6:20

I got a free copy of the book and

6:22

I wrote to thank them, and a

6:24

woman named Lisa Leghorn responded

6:28

and we created a correspondence and

6:32

at some point I realized she was a senior

6:34

student of who is now

6:36

my teacher took to representate

6:39

and eventually he,

6:41

you know, he came down to visit me a

6:45

few times, and at some point

6:47

I was giving the empowerment. It's

6:49

a ceremony that

6:52

was just basically to introduce me to

6:54

Rogeriana Buddhism. And

6:57

I became a student of that practice

7:00

US and I was giving a practice

7:02

called the Red Tar practice.

7:05

And I thought that practice,

7:08

as I began to sit

7:10

with it, was a very clear, honest

7:12

way of opening me up to

7:15

see where freedom

7:18

really is. What is the practice?

7:22

Retire practice is a guide,

7:24

a way of opening the door

7:27

of confronting our suffering

7:29

and suffering of all beings. And it's

7:31

a prayer that allows

7:33

us to you know, work

7:36

on that, work on opening many

7:38

many doors that has been locked. There

7:41

were a locked for me, particularly because

7:43

there was a lot of things I was denial. There

7:46

was a lot of things that I'd impaired attention

7:48

to that my life gave

7:51

some purpose floor and I really

7:53

really got into it. I

7:55

I thought it as

7:57

a perfect guy for where

7:59

I was in my life. Why

8:02

what what was it about Buddhism

8:05

in particular that drew

8:07

you in? Oh,

8:10

it was the opening gate. It opened

8:13

a lot of doors. It opened a lot of gates

8:15

for me to sit with. It

8:17

was a practice what you know, that had

8:21

meditation, a lot of meditation. It

8:23

was a practice that that

8:25

dealt with me and the suffering

8:27

that I was dealing with, you know, the

8:30

human suffering that I was dealing with. Let's

8:32

call and your telephone numbers will be monitored

8:35

and recorded. And it

8:37

taught me how to begin the process

8:39

of dissolving those those

8:41

things, those obstacles that has

8:44

been in my life. There

8:46

was that life Jarvis, like when you first

8:49

meditated, So you're you're sitting

8:51

there and you're waiting

8:53

to hear the verdict back on the

8:56

death sentence. Walk us

8:58

through your oriens with

9:00

meditation. Wasn't frustrating at first? Did

9:02

you take to it like a fish to water?

9:05

Now? I just I just learned how to sit down

9:08

and and to probably

9:10

the opposite. I just sit down and started

9:12

thinking that was a good

9:14

thing for me, because I had to learn how to

9:16

sit down first. Before I learned how to

9:18

meditate. I was a very

9:20

angry person and I didn't particularly

9:24

things. Sitting down was

9:26

you know, fulfilling for me at that time.

9:28

So I just had to learn how to sit down and sit

9:31

down with me, you know. And that

9:34

took a while. You know, there was a lot of times

9:36

where I was bored with it, but I

9:38

made a commitment to myself. I just sit

9:41

there, and things start opening

9:43

up. Gates started opening up, windows

9:45

start becoming with

9:48

more fresh air than I had ever felt

9:50

before. And that was

9:52

a beautiful time for me, It really was. And

9:55

I was dealing with san

9:57

Quentin, and I was dealing with death role,

10:00

and I was dealing with how did

10:02

I get to this point in my life?

10:04

And I started realizing

10:07

that we all suffered to some degree or

10:09

another and that I was not

10:11

alone. And

10:13

one of the things my teacher, one of my teachers

10:16

taught me was that you know, you're

10:18

not the worst case. You know,

10:21

uh, there's many people who have far more

10:24

worse problems than you. And

10:26

that was a that was a guiding light

10:28

for me to not think

10:30

of me for me, but just think

10:32

of all beings and all

10:35

people who suffered way more

10:37

than I do. And

10:39

I really felt a companionship

10:42

with that. You know, was it difficult

10:44

at first? I mean, did you have any

10:46

resentment? Because to tell

10:49

you that there are people worse off than you

10:51

here you are potentially on death row?

10:54

How did that sit with you? I

10:56

learned Buddhism pretty much at

10:58

the feet of my teacher, so

11:02

I was really really guided, very

11:04

I was very trained. I had

11:06

the benefit of really really having

11:09

a songa a community,

11:12

and I had members of that community

11:14

visit me often, so I never

11:17

went outside what I was

11:19

trained to sit with. Well,

11:22

the difficult I

11:25

think it was not in

11:28

retrospect. Wasn't boring,

11:32

of course that was yes, it was born at

11:34

very boring for me.

11:36

I just had the benefit of having

11:39

teachers all around me my

11:41

age older than me, folks

11:44

who have been into Buddhism twenty years

11:46

before I had. And these

11:48

people really really trained trained

11:50

me, taught me a lot. But

11:53

more than that, they taught me how to teach

11:56

myself, and

11:58

that was something I never really really

12:00

had the ability to learn

12:03

how to teach myself. You

12:05

can find all kinds of teachers,

12:07

you know, and all kinds of teachers

12:10

want you to think like they do, aren't

12:13

practice like they do. In my community

12:16

taught me how to think for myself, taught

12:18

me how to become my own practitioners

12:21

because they recognized that I was on sad

12:23

Qui death row and for many

12:26

them, they couldn't even fathom the thought

12:29

of being physically on death row.

12:32

For them, they thought, wow, he's

12:34

really he really is suffering.

12:37

He is in that sea

12:39

of suffering. He is face and

12:42

death, real death. And

12:45

they made me realize that. But they also made

12:47

me realize that that is nothing

12:50

close to me in the end of

12:52

who I was, you know, it was the beginning

12:54

of who I became. Um,

12:57

I just had the opportunity

12:59

to have some serious people

13:01

around me, so

13:15

you learned the first step was to learn to sit

13:17

with yourself. Can you describe

13:20

what that looked like, I assumed you sat

13:22

in your mind by four sell and

13:25

just sat on the ground.

13:28

Just said on the ground. I mean, I didn't want to sit

13:30

on no cushions. I wanted to sit

13:32

on the ground because I really wanted to

13:34

feel what my

13:36

body was going through, you know, I really

13:38

wanted to feel that sense of suffering. I

13:42

didn't want to make this place comfortable, and

13:44

I was determined not to do that. I

13:46

was determined not to hide behind,

13:50

you know, being a Buddhist and

13:52

having a Buddhist community, asked

13:54

my way of getting through

13:57

all the doors that I needed to. At

14:00

point, did sitting with yourself

14:02

evolved into a meditation practice?

14:05

And what did that look like? Well, I thought,

14:07

I thought. One of the reason, and this is in retrospect,

14:10

because this happened, you know, thirty

14:12

years ago. So um,

14:15

I think I was trying to ground out the

14:17

noise that

14:19

became my my sense

14:22

of refuge. I was

14:24

really trying to ground out the noise because

14:26

San Quentin is a very, very

14:29

very loud place. So I was trying to ground

14:31

out the noise. And a

14:34

lot of things came to mind that

14:39

one practitioner, another friend

14:42

had said to me and I said with

14:44

that, you know, just out of curiosity,

14:46

you know. And then I started getting

14:49

some guidance about meditation,

14:52

you know, and those particular

14:56

instructions that's

14:58

called andrew our telephone numbers be monitored

15:00

and recorded. A lot you had

15:02

sixty seconds remaining. Excuse

15:05

me, A lot of them did not fit saying

15:08

quickly. So I have to figure out a way

15:10

to make my practice fit

15:12

the conditions that I was living in. And

15:16

that gave me a lot of room

15:18

to explore too, come

15:21

with a genuine heart,

15:24

but to explore how do you get along

15:26

with people being a Buddhist,

15:29

I mean you being a Buddhist no one else, you

15:31

know, because hand there was very few

15:33

Buddhists. So I had to figure out

15:36

how to do that, you know, and that

15:38

became sort of like a practice. You

15:40

know. You can have your meditation practice,

15:42

and you can have your sitting, and

15:45

you can have your instruction.

15:47

But c Quentin gave me a

15:49

new way of thinking about Buddhism.

15:52

Yeah, it gave me a new way of thinking about Buddhism.

15:55

Because I was feeling pressure on one end,

15:57

the inmates, them, the

16:00

guards, because I had, as

16:03

I said, was on

16:05

the crime scene. You know, I

16:07

the murder death,

16:10

the sergeant burst feel happened on San

16:13

Quentin and now I'm on San

16:15

Quentin's And there was

16:17

a lot of hatred from

16:20

the guards, and there was a lot of

16:23

a lot of people thinking that I was running

16:25

away from being who I was

16:27

by accepting the idea

16:29

of using my time to

16:32

meditate. So I had sort

16:34

of like wall to wall enemy, so to

16:36

speak. So I had to figure

16:38

out what was I going to do

16:41

if I was going to stay with this practice,

16:43

that mean I'm not going to sugarcoat.

16:45

It was very, very hard and a difficult

16:48

process, but one then

16:50

I thought, really really open

16:53

doors for me, open many

16:56

doors for me. As an example,

16:59

for the first to maybe

17:01

three years maybe five years that I

17:03

became a practitioner, all

17:06

I was learning from san Quentin

17:08

is what not to do. I never

17:11

felt like I was being inspired to

17:13

learn what to do. What

17:15

do you mean learning what not to do? Well?

17:18

I get I see guys yelling disagreement

17:20

at guards, and I said, wow, this is what I

17:23

look when I do that. You know, I

17:25

see guards, you know, in a lot of pain

17:27

and suffering, and I said, wow, this guard

17:30

may be going home to his son. I

17:33

would see violence

17:35

and I say, wow, you know, how

17:38

can I participate in compassion?

17:41

You know. So it was those

17:43

kind of experiences that I was constantly

17:46

learning, you know. And

17:48

as I figured my way through these things,

17:50

people start calling me a real serious

17:52

practitioner, and I never took

17:54

serious to that. What my whole trip

17:57

was is to find the

17:59

gates. That was just gonna open me up

18:01

to understanding what compassion and

18:03

how compassionate works

18:06

inside a prison system.

18:08

M And

18:11

it was hard. It was hard. It was

18:13

very hard, you know. I

18:15

was confronted with a lot of violence. I

18:17

was in the shoe unit, security housing

18:20

unit, and

18:23

yeah, yeah, they put long words

18:26

to it to deny what it

18:28

is. And a lot of people

18:30

were in there for serious

18:32

things, you know, murder, The saw

18:36

serious stuff, you know. And

18:38

one of the things that broke me through

18:41

because I keep talking about opening

18:43

gates and opening doors. What's

18:45

the first story I wrote called scars

18:49

And this is a if you're refinding

18:51

freedom story about inmates.

18:54

And I noticed the scars and whips on

18:56

their back and I've never

18:58

seen those before, but I had my own,

19:00

you know, because

19:03

they were popping

19:05

iron lifting weights in the middle of this hot

19:08

sun they just stuck

19:10

out, you know. They were whips.

19:12

They were not just scars. They were serious

19:15

whips. And I just

19:17

had to figure out, why did the hell did

19:19

you get these things? You know? And

19:22

they all told me. But what got

19:24

me more than anything, more

19:27

than the story, was the

19:31

expression they gave to the story.

19:34

It was like a proud thing

19:37

to have these scars and whips.

19:40

It was to say that I did that

19:42

been there before. And

19:45

I realized I had my own. I had

19:47

my own. And I

19:50

looked at my my

19:52

hand where I remember

19:54

the councilors made us compete

19:57

while I was a jew a now and

19:59

they will put the s agree between our two

20:01

thumbs, and they waited to see

20:04

who could stay there the longest. I

20:07

forgot about that, you know, But then

20:09

when I looked around, I started seeing that.

20:11

I went to my cell and I realized that I

20:13

have the same thing. Let's

20:15

call and to our telephone number. They'll be monitored

20:18

and recorded. And you know, when

20:20

I felt like I had the same thing, I

20:22

felt an opportunity to write about the

20:25

same thing. And I wrote the story

20:27

the scars, and

20:30

somehow the

20:33

inmates, the prisoners and

20:35

convicts got a hold

20:38

of that story. I can't remember if

20:40

I shared it with them. Are they just found

20:42

it somewhere? And

20:45

at first I said, oh my god, what

20:47

the fund did I do here? And

20:51

I was surprised to realize they all

20:53

accepted that story as the true

20:56

story of their

20:58

life history. It

21:00

would told from someone who

21:02

have that own history, and

21:04

there's just a spirit an acceptance

21:07

to it, you know, by just using

21:09

certain words, and you know, instead

21:12

of using abuse and neglect

21:15

and all these things, there's other words for it, you

21:17

know. So I understood

21:19

that the language would be able to give me

21:21

a whole lot of access to people.

21:24

And like you know the trade or

21:27

you know, you know well that will learn all

21:29

the words that tells you how the

21:31

well. And I had to figure out what was

21:33

the voice of saying Quentin deathro

21:37

And that's been a practice for me ever

21:39

since. It's not just you

21:41

learn it and you forget about it.

21:44

It's a it's a day to day practice.

21:47

You were out on the yard and you saw these

21:49

guys and they all had similar

21:51

scars and similar life stories. You

21:54

had the language of Buddhism

21:57

to deal with that history.

22:00

Did you share that with the guys that were out

22:02

there? Were there other guys out there that were Buddhist

22:05

practitioners, and they look at you like you

22:07

were strange that you have this.

22:10

I had never known a Buddhist practitioner

22:13

on those yards back then. I've

22:16

known people who would meditate, you

22:18

know, but I never knew them take the

22:20

practitioner acceptance in parliament

22:23

ceremonies and you know the others

22:27

as a way of changing

22:29

their whole life cycle. It was just

22:32

me jive talking

22:34

talking, you know, directly to their

22:36

stars and directly to all

22:39

of our egos. And there was something

22:42

that I looked at and

22:44

realized I found the permission

22:46

to write about prison in

22:49

Buddhism. It was something

22:51

that I really really began to realize

22:55

my purpose, My purpose for being

22:57

here is to be more

22:59

of an engage Buddhists,

23:01

not so much on the academic

23:04

side, but more so as

23:07

a practitioner, as someone who's

23:09

engaged in kind

23:11

of find the joy and happiness within.

23:14

You know, each of us, you know, and you know

23:16

family does. Writing to family,

23:18

writing to our nephews and our sons

23:21

and kids was a real

23:23

experience, and I thought a lot of

23:25

us didn't realize how fortunate

23:28

we were. And

23:30

I need to say this also, I

23:32

was one of the first people who

23:36

dealt with me. I dealt

23:38

with me, and the only way

23:40

I could have this is in retrospect.

23:43

The only way I could have done what

23:45

I was doing was I had to learn

23:47

how to accept it for myself

23:50

too, And that

23:52

was the heart of my practice. That's when

23:54

I was taught trained to practice

23:56

from and I

23:59

had here's to sit

24:01

with, you know, and I sit with those years

24:03

now. You

24:16

talked about your ego and when

24:18

you came into prison, this is

24:20

five ten years prior to Sergeant

24:23

Birksfield being murdered. You

24:26

admitted to being angry and bitter

24:29

and frustrated based on the

24:31

life that you had been handed. How

24:34

did Buddhism fundamentally change

24:37

you and how you dealt

24:39

with your own ego? Um,

24:43

I remember going to

24:45

trial and let's call and

24:47

to our telephone numbers will be monitored and

24:49

recorded. This is just one

24:51

way it could be in other ways. What stands

24:53

out for me? You know, I learned how to cry,

24:56

you know, I've never did. I

24:59

learned how to here the tears and other people's

25:01

speech in their language. So on come

25:04

up to me and says, my mother just died, But

25:06

it ain't no thing, you know. I had a lot of years

25:08

with her, you know, No you didn't, you

25:11

know, because you're living with her now. And

25:14

I was able to learn how to express

25:16

that and have the respect us telling

25:18

that, saying that, and then I felt with you

25:21

know what, I felt responsible for all

25:23

this stuff. Now, what I was learning

25:25

was teaching me how to become a

25:28

serious practitioner without

25:31

understanding that. That's where I was heading. When

25:33

you started investigating

25:36

Buddhism and the practice of it, were

25:38

their resources outside of what

25:41

melody irma child gave you. Because

25:43

it's just thirty years ago. So was

25:45

there a Buddhist chaplin there that could help

25:48

you learn? There was no

25:50

such thing as a Buddhist teacher.

25:52

And saying Quentin, you know, religion and

25:55

San Quentin and I think it's probably

25:57

another prison too, is very territorial.

26:00

Catholicism, Islam,

26:03

these faiths, you know, our

26:05

well established will inside

26:08

the prison system. Buddhism was like,

26:11

where is this going? You know, is this

26:13

a real religion? We're not going to allow

26:15

you to practice this in a formal

26:18

setting because it's not. If

26:20

they don't fit the bill of being a

26:22

real religion, they didn't recognize that. They

26:24

didn't acknowledge it. They didn't do any of

26:26

those things. A good example

26:29

it would be when I had

26:31

my empowerment ceremony, when

26:34

my teacher representate came to

26:36

give me my power and ceremony, they

26:39

kept me behind a glass window. All

26:42

the rituals and all the little things

26:45

that you would need to go through it in power

26:47

ceremony, we're not given

26:49

to us. They didn't acknowledge

26:51

that. But now if I wanted to get

26:53

baptized, they escort

26:56

you right outside the prison and right out the

26:58

adjustment center and you'll go be

27:00

bathtime somewhere. But you know

27:02

what, I did not mind those

27:04

things. I wasn't smart enough or

27:07

I didn't take my practice serious

27:09

enough to see the discrimination

27:11

in that. And one of the reasons

27:14

why I didn't do that because refreshe didn't

27:16

give me no excuse. He wouldn't allow

27:19

no excuse, so I didn't.

27:21

I just gave up on you know, whatever

27:23

frustrations I had with that, you

27:25

wasting time? You know his attitude

27:27

was you wasting time? How did the guys

27:31

with you on the East block take

27:33

to the fact that you were

27:36

you like a Buddhist elder to them

27:38

or did they find did they accept

27:40

you for who you were? They

27:43

have this saying, and I may have interpreted

27:45

the wrong way, so forgive me if I have. But

27:48

I always heard that term kill the Buddha,

27:51

you know, at some point you

27:53

have to kill the Buddha, and kind

27:55

of understand it. But maybe

27:58

I did not understand. But I definitely

28:00

used it, you know, I definitely

28:03

put my own twist to it. And what

28:05

I mean by putting my twist to it was that

28:09

I stopped trying to act like a Buddhist,

28:12

the Buddhas that I would try to imitate,

28:15

sitting down, the one

28:17

that would, you know, hold his fingers

28:19

together and try to meditate, the

28:22

one who has some kind of deep realization,

28:26

the kind of people who thought they

28:28

found enlightenment. Stopped being

28:30

those people. I stopped reading the

28:32

books. I was left on my own. And

28:35

I think what my teacher

28:37

taught me is how to be on my

28:39

own in a way

28:42

of bringing out a more number

28:46

of people in the community together, you

28:48

know. So it was

28:51

me learning how to not talk

28:53

like a Buddhist and be a Buddhist not

28:56

having all the academic skills.

28:59

Readings to your Buddhists I mean those

29:01

are pitfalls. All those are which

29:03

gets you in trouble. You know, I was keeping my friendships,

29:06

that's all. I was trying to keep

29:08

people from going to the whole, are

29:10

being um um

29:13

extracted from their selves, are made

29:16

or shot all

29:18

those things. Is the Buddhist

29:20

community grown in the last

29:22

thirty years? Oh yeah, Can

29:25

you tell me a little bit about it? You

29:28

know, I think the ministration has most

29:30

ministrations in our nation's history.

29:32

You have sixty seconds remaining accepted

29:35

the idea that it helps,

29:38

it helps the overall institution

29:41

to have or to have someone coming

29:43

diet to prison and teach people how to

29:45

sit and meditate. It's

29:48

been a benefit to the prison administrations,

29:51

at least the ones I know to be

29:53

able to do that. So it's it's a it's

29:55

an important aspect

29:57

of understanding what

30:00

helps prisoners and prisoners find

30:02

peace, find an inner peace and are not

30:04

assault guards or anything like that. Of

30:07

course, big, it's a huge, It is

30:09

very huge. Now do you find Buddhist

30:11

communities in almost every prison? Okay,

30:15

So the group that you are talking

30:17

to right now, Black Buddhist

30:20

Conference. It's sponsored

30:22

by Trumbala, who is the publisher

30:24

of your book Finding Freedom, which has got re

30:26

released, and they'd like me to talk

30:28

specifically to how Buddhism plays

30:31

an important role in the lives of a lot of

30:33

Black Americans who have been incarcerated

30:36

or who are there now, you know,

30:38

and what I know my own experience

30:41

is, and it's all been a set equipment and

30:43

it's mostly all been on death rolls. So

30:46

I don't have a lot of what

30:49

this panel might have as their own

30:51

experiences. But for

30:53

me, I think Buddhism and

30:56

let's call and you our telephone numbers they're

30:58

been monitoring any did the relationship

31:01

to being black and the Buddhists

31:04

are being black and a teacher is territorial.

31:07

I've never ever saw

31:10

a teacher of

31:13

African descent teaching

31:17

Buddhism in prison. It

31:19

is unheard of in my own

31:21

experience. But

31:24

you know, I'm isolated, you know, I'm in I'm

31:26

on death row, and I'm isolated. The

31:29

dim units in Santa Quentin's

31:31

death role are very

31:34

isolated. The panel that this is

31:36

being presented to, they are both black

31:38

Buddhist practitioners but also non practitioners.

31:42

So people who may be identified with

31:44

Islam or may be identified with Christianity,

31:47

can Buddhism or practices they

31:49

are in add to their home

31:52

religious practices. I

31:54

think, so I don't see why

31:56

not. I mean, I don't

31:59

know all the tenants

32:01

of these various faith

32:03

but I can't imagine someone

32:06

saying that I need to cultivate

32:10

compassion. I

32:12

need to be of

32:15

some service too to

32:17

quell violence wherever I am. I

32:20

shouldn't have a problem understanding the

32:22

nature of suffering and where

32:24

that leads, you know. I can't

32:27

imagine those various tenants

32:29

not playing a part in all face, you

32:32

know. But if you get hooked

32:34

on the name, you

32:37

leave a lot of people behind, no matter what faith

32:39

you're in. Yeah, the name is a hook

32:41

to me, you know. And I

32:44

started using that phrase when I was talking

32:46

to you earlier about killing the Buddha, that

32:49

the name Buddha is a hook. It creates

32:51

confusion, you know, and it

32:54

creates chaos and it analysis.

32:56

You know. It's truth to me. It

32:59

feels like when you it was these terms, you're

33:01

using something against people attraction.

33:05

Let's call and to our telephone number. They'll

33:08

be monitored and recorded. Marca

33:10

Luis King walked with all face,

33:13

And I actually no problem with that, you know, and

33:15

no one seen a problem with that. Probably there all

33:18

I did, but no one else, you

33:20

know. But

33:23

we can walk together, you know, we can sit

33:25

together. You know, we can use

33:27

our own particular practices to make

33:29

the world better, you know, to suffering.

33:32

Well, Ben, you know that's

33:34

that's perfect to me. And you

33:37

know I was raised in a Baptist

33:39

church when I was small,

33:41

so um,

33:44

I tried my best to get out of that place. Um

33:49

because I was young, and I just you

33:51

know, I like

33:53

any kid back in back

33:56

then, way back then, you know, you rather

33:58

ride your bike, you know. Yeah,

34:02

you know, you were to play marbles for something.

34:04

You getting all the press stuff

34:06

and they're putting all that grease on your face

34:08

and you're sitting sitting with all

34:11

these old people and something.

34:15

You see it every time you walk in his church.

34:17

You see a cat. It's sitting right down

34:20

the aisle. I didn't want that. That

34:22

was not my bike, you know, on my

34:25

my skateboard. Yeah.

34:27

Yeah, So so we

34:29

talked about your book Finding Freedom then

34:31

rereleased this past year, and then

34:34

David Chef's book, the biography The

34:36

Buddhist on Death Row was released

34:38

several months ago. Such a beautiful book, and

34:41

then the new anthology

34:44

Black and Buddhist. So how

34:46

did it feel for you to see growing

34:48

interest in the experience of black Buddhists

34:51

around the country. I

34:53

think it's a good thing. I think it's a

34:55

good thing. I remember

34:57

a while back, short of when I was

35:00

only in an angry state, and

35:02

I said, you know what, if you know, I

35:04

went to my teacher, I went to

35:07

Lisa, one of the senior students of

35:09

Reproche, and I said, you know

35:11

what, why isn't there a black

35:13

Buddhuses? You know, how

35:15

can all these people be reincarnated

35:18

as Asian? You

35:21

know that? How is that true?

35:23

That will make sense to me? You

35:25

know, do you

35:27

mean to tell me everybody who has something

35:29

that created a recycle

35:32

of life as we would call it a rebirth,

35:35

they all ended up being Tibettan or

35:37

Chinese, or Japanese or Asian?

35:40

How does that happen? What do you guys get

35:42

that from? That'll

35:45

make that'll drive with me and

35:47

for me, I used to just come

35:50

straight out with it, you know. Yeah,

35:53

And she said to me, she

35:56

said, now I'll never forget

35:58

it. She said. Market

36:00

was the key was a Buddhist Malcolm

36:04

Max was a Buddhist. This

36:07

is where you find your teachers. Your teachers

36:09

are not you know, always

36:11

to betting. They are the community

36:14

leaders in your community. There

36:16

are the black teachers who teaches

36:19

kids. They are there.

36:22

They just don't get hooked up on the name Buddhists.

36:25

You hear Buddhists because that's their name

36:27

and that's their faith. You

36:29

know in Asia are somewhere else.

36:32

But trust me, they're

36:34

there and they're practicing

36:37

and their teaching and

36:39

that just that was a life change in the moment for me.

36:42

You have sixty seconds remaining because

36:44

I needed to hear that answer. If

36:48

I had not known that answer, I would

36:50

always have hiccups about what's

36:52

going on with this? You know, So

36:56

to go back to what you're saying, I think

36:58

it's a good thing, really do. Yeah,

37:02

we know the folks at Shambala

37:05

and the Summits host Ioya

37:07

Sunday wanted to express

37:10

their gratitude because this is awesome. It's

37:12

going to be an amazing event. And uh,

37:15

I wish you could be there physically, but

37:17

maybe next year maybe will

37:20

have you you know, the event

37:23

and physically be there. What do you say that

37:26

would be great? That would be great but if I can ask

37:28

them for a favor, you know, I

37:31

would say to them, if it's all

37:33

possible, I would love for that talent

37:35

to bring as much of what they're speaking

37:38

to inside San Quentin.

37:41

I think that would be a very powerful

37:43

statement. I mean, Sarah Coultin has

37:46

two cable stations that are

37:49

specifically used

37:51

to address or to speak

37:54

out of other places that

37:56

it makes may not be allowed to go, ye

37:59

not have priv to have access.

38:02

You know, if you are in

38:04

isolation confinement, they

38:06

have church services on that station.

38:10

Uh, if you're an education and you can't

38:12

get to you know, a school

38:15

or school, you know the prison school house, they

38:18

run school via television

38:20

the cable station. And

38:23

to have this African community

38:25

of Buddhists and non Buddhistists

38:28

appear on those

38:30

stations would

38:33

say a whole lot

38:36

to the benefit. That

38:38

is a huge step. Let's

38:41

call and your telephone number will be monitored

38:44

and recorded. Well, I'll

38:46

work with them. I'll do what I can do to help help

38:48

facilitate that. Absolutely, absolutely,

38:51

that would be great. Okay,

38:53

you got it, you done, did good, and

38:56

I ain't blown smoke, I

38:58

ain't feel alright.

39:07

Alright, Let's call and to our telephone

39:09

number will be monitored and recorded. Bolly

39:12

oh, he's telling me you have to go now, Okay,

39:15

so all right here,

39:20

alright, alright, okay.

39:28

Next week we'll hear from Jarvis's lead attorney

39:30

at Kirkland and Ellis, as well as from some of

39:32

you who have reached out to Jarvis directly

39:34

through our hotline with questions and curiosities.

39:38

Special thanks to Pamela Ayo Yatunde.

39:41

Check out her latest book Black

39:43

and Buddhist. What Buddhism

39:45

can teach Us about race, resilience,

39:48

transformation and Healing. This

39:51

episode was written and produced by Donna

39:53

Fazzari and myself Cornicle. Our

39:56

theme song sentenced is compliments

39:58

of the band Stick Figure from their album

40:00

Set in Stone. Stu Sternbach

40:03

composed the original music. Nate

40:05

Defort did the sound design. For

40:07

more information on Jarvis and to find out

40:10

how you can follow his case and support his

40:12

cause, please visit free

40:14

Jarvis dot org. For more

40:16

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40:23

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