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The universe has good news for the

0:28

lost, lonely, and heart sick. Sugar

0:30

is here. The both of us. Speaking

0:33

straight into your ears. I'm

0:36

Cheryl Strayed. I'm Steve Almond. This

0:38

is Dear Sugar Radio. Oh

0:41

dear song, won't you please

0:46

Share some bittersweet

0:48

days with me

0:56

I check my bills

0:58

every day Oh

1:04

and the sugar you

1:06

see in my way Hi

1:10

Cheryl. Hi Steve. So

1:13

we are in week two of our

1:15

episodes on friendship. Last week we did

1:17

the frequently asked questions. This week we're

1:19

narrowing our focus a bit to look

1:21

at what happens when men and women

1:23

are friends and the issues that

1:25

might arise. Why don't we just dive

1:28

right in my friend. Let's do it my friend.

1:30

Alright Dear Sugars, I'm a young

1:32

woman in a tight-knit male-dominated creative industry.

1:34

Our work is our art and our

1:36

art is our work which means there's

1:38

ample opportunity to make meaningful connections that

1:41

extend well beyond the proverbial water cooler.

1:43

I have a few close male friends

1:46

I'm deeply connected to and I mean

1:48

true friends with whom I share strong

1:50

but platonic emotional bonds. I

1:52

love the richness these relationships bring

1:54

to my life. My partner does

1:56

not. He's convinced men and women

1:58

can never truly be friends that attraction

2:01

will eventually get the better of

2:03

one or both parties turning disastrous

2:05

for all. He's always suspicious

2:07

of my male friends and frustrated at

2:09

my investment in them. Naturally,

2:11

this irks me. But Sugars, is he

2:13

right? Is it just unrealistic

2:16

to believe real male-female friendships are

2:18

sustainable? Am I being naive

2:20

to think we're not chemically bound to

2:22

develop romantic feelings, and that if such

2:24

an attraction did occur we could recover

2:26

without losing the friendship? And

2:29

platonically puzzled? Well,

2:32

I think we are proof that

2:35

the answer to this question is, yes, men

2:37

and women can really be friends platonically puzzled.

2:40

I mean, I'm actually concerned about your partner

2:42

who doesn't think this. This tells me that

2:44

he's not really opened himself

2:46

up to relationships with women without like

2:48

always making sex and attraction part of

2:51

the equation, which I think really limits

2:53

his life. You know, I

2:55

do think that there are some things

2:57

to consider when you're straight and friends

2:59

with somebody of the opposite sex, and

3:01

you certainly want to respect your partner

3:03

and make your partner feel valued

3:06

and sometimes included in those friendships.

3:09

But, you know, they absolutely can exist. Steve,

3:12

I've had male friends all my life. And

3:14

there have been times where then suddenly, you

3:16

know, some sex thing enters the picture and

3:19

it messes everything up. But you

3:21

know, in my, what I can say in my

3:23

experience, and I really identify with you platonically puzzled,

3:25

you know, that you can really develop true

3:28

emotional connections with people for whom

3:30

you have absolutely, you know, no

3:32

sexual desire. And you

3:34

purposely don't allow that into

3:36

the equation. Yeah. I

3:38

mean, this is part of the problem with patriarchal

3:41

thought and more broadly our kind

3:43

of relentless gender

3:45

hang-ups. You know,

3:48

everybody loves Harriet Winn, Harriet Met Sally,

3:50

but it's like a rom-com, folks. Okay.

3:53

People have complicated lives,

3:55

and because we get

3:57

so confused about romantic.

4:00

sexual intimacy and emotional

4:02

intimacy, oftentimes there's

4:04

an occluded view of what

4:07

is perfectly natural. I've had

4:09

mostly female friends in my life. Why?

4:12

Because I like to talk about

4:14

feelings and that stuff's important to

4:16

me and frankly, they're usually a

4:19

little bit less self-absorbed than

4:21

men or whatever. Maybe I'm threatened and competitive with

4:24

men because of my hang-ups. These are complicated reasons,

4:26

but I gravitate towards that. Last

4:28

year in college, I lived with three women in the house and

4:31

they were all pals of mine. There was a

4:33

little moment of romantic confusion

4:35

with one of them and it was

4:37

something that we struggled with for a

4:39

week or two and that does happen.

4:42

For God's sakes, what your boyfriend's jealous

4:44

of is that you have really powerful

4:46

friends that you feel deeply connected to,

4:48

not just in a professional sense, but

4:50

creatively. You invest in

4:52

those friendships and you invest your emotion in

4:55

them and good on you. If

4:57

you can't get with that, then you need to get with

4:59

somebody new. It's

5:02

so amply clear to me that taking

5:05

the posture that that's just impossible is

5:07

a kind of adolescent view of gender

5:09

relations. It

5:11

is. I will say, I agree

5:14

with you entirely, Steve, but one

5:16

thing you can do if platonically puzzled, you

5:18

want to try to help your boyfriend grow

5:20

a bit on this subject because I don't

5:22

think he's alone in thinking this. I've certainly

5:24

heard it from men before and

5:26

some women too. One

5:29

of the things is you can, first of all, listen to

5:31

the show with him, this episode

5:33

especially today. I find

5:35

too, when I think about the closest male

5:38

friends I've had, I

5:40

always pulled them into my life in a

5:42

whole way. You are also friends with Brian.

5:46

We became friends. We all met around the

5:48

same time, but you and I became friends

5:50

first and same with Erin. I

5:52

know you better than I know Erin, but

5:54

I feel like Erin is my friend too.

5:57

There's a kind of neutral

5:59

feeling. You know that that any idea

6:01

of there being romance or sex with with

6:03

all of my male friends has been neutralized

6:06

by the fact that They're just very naturally

6:08

part of my life, right? And my partner

6:11

also likes these people even if I'm closer

6:13

to some of these male friends And

6:15

it works the other way to my husband has friends

6:17

from graduate school He's been friends

6:19

with them, you know decades now and

6:22

I'm included in their friendships Even though

6:24

you know, they're primarily friends and you

6:26

know Maybe that's part of the problem

6:28

here platonic Lee puzzled I mean, I think the

6:31

first part is your boyfriend believes that men and women

6:33

can't be friends But if he's willing to go a

6:35

step further open his mind, maybe think

6:38

about introducing him to these guys Meeting

6:41

them for drinks maybe in some

6:43

ways diminishing his sense of feeling threatened

6:46

and I do get it because as you

6:48

said yourself You're part of a tight-knit male

6:50

dominated creative industry I work with our ours

6:52

our work like he's jealous of your workplace

6:54

Yeah jealous of the fact that you are

6:56

obviously a magnetic figure

6:59

in this world of talented creative men That

7:01

you have lots in common with in terms

7:03

of your art and your work and your

7:06

professions and you emotionally invested in them So,

7:08

okay, let's be considerate of that. But that

7:11

should be a cause for Him

7:14

he should be happy that you're able to

7:16

find support in from friends as well

7:18

That's the irony here that the person

7:20

is resentful of the kind of friendships

7:23

and supports that you get from outside

7:26

But he should also understandably stake out

7:28

his claim to the part that is

7:30

his the romantic Involvement and the emotional

7:32

intimacy and so forth. I think those

7:34

are not mutually exclusive. Gosh, I hope

7:36

not I know. Yeah, and I will say,

7:38

you know, this isn't something that is

7:40

the domain of boyfriends I know there are a

7:43

lot of women and heterosexual relationships who have that

7:45

same kind of thing They're threatened when their male

7:47

partners are friends with other women and so it

7:49

works both ways. We wish you luck. We

7:51

do. Okay next letter Dear

7:54

sugars. I come to you

7:56

as a dear devotee of anything and

7:58

everything Nora Efron I

8:00

along with many others believe her writings and films

8:02

know how to get at the core of human

8:04

emotion, especially the male and female

8:06

relationship. In particular, I have

8:09

always maintained a steadfast fascination with When

8:11

Harry Met Sally. As

8:13

we all know, the theme of the movie surrounds

8:15

the question as to whether or not men and

8:17

women can be friends. And I

8:19

must say that I side with Sally on this. I

8:22

have formed several friendships with my male opposites

8:24

throughout the years. That's

8:26

what I treasure for their hilarity, sincerity,

8:28

and lack of soap operatic drama. However,

8:31

I recently have found myself at a

8:33

crossroads with these male friendships. I

8:36

a textbook extrovert take great

8:38

care to know my male pals. I

8:41

ask frequent questions about their families,

8:43

jobs, romances, or lack thereof, because

8:46

I love them and want them to know I'm interested

8:48

in their well-being. My issue

8:50

here is that it feels one-sided. I can

8:53

count on two fingers the men that

8:55

have at times been in my life aside from

8:57

my husband, who will message me or call

8:59

me to check in and say hello. These

9:01

two fellows devote time to knowing the real me instead

9:04

of the surface level me. The

9:06

others don't bother. So

9:08

I suppose my question is this. Is

9:10

this a guy thing? Or is it just

9:12

my guy friends? Do men truly not

9:14

take the time to think about these things and

9:16

ask the in-depth questions? Can I

9:18

chalk it up to gender differences? If

9:21

not, how can I continue to pursue these

9:23

friendships without feeling emotionally exhausted all the

9:25

time? When it comes down to

9:27

it, each and every one of them has qualities I

9:29

admire and I truly enjoy spending time with them. Yet

9:32

I'm often left to wonder if I should

9:34

be pouring myself into more fulfilling friendships for

9:36

my sake. Is it only female

9:38

friends from here on out? Because I

9:41

don't think I can handle that either. Signed,

9:43

girlfriend. Mm-hmm. I'm not going

9:46

to take umbrage at this at all, Cheryl Strayed, because

9:48

actually, two friends who call

9:50

you and really want to know how you're

9:52

doing, that's not bad. Two

9:54

male friends. Two male friends. All

9:56

of her female friends. Okay, all of her female friends. But two male

9:58

friends. That's not bad.

10:01

Look, I'm not going to sit

10:03

here and say men are, you know, how

10:06

dare you accuse men of being callous and

10:08

self-interested and unable to engage in a deeper

10:10

emotional level. They're not as

10:12

considerate. And women, in my

10:14

experience, speaking in generalizations, deplorable though

10:17

they might be, are more considerate,

10:19

more empathic, more apt to ask

10:21

how you're doing and extend their

10:23

consideration in your direction than just

10:25

want to joke around and, you

10:28

know, kind of not get into

10:30

that deep, heavy stuff, right? And

10:32

I think a lot of friendship is, as

10:35

I said last week in triage,

10:37

figuring out which friendships supply

10:39

which things that you need that are

10:41

sustaining. If you have two friends who

10:43

are considerate in this way, great, nurture

10:45

those friendships. But if you

10:47

have friends who you goof around with and

10:50

who just aren't constitutionally ready to be

10:52

the kind of friend who is going

10:54

to naturally unprompted call or look you

10:56

in the face and say, how are

10:58

you doing? Are you okay? You just

11:00

have to recognize that's not who they

11:02

are in the context of this relationship.

11:05

I think that you can, and I

11:07

love Nora Afron, and I commend you

11:09

to read the essay if you haven't

11:11

a few words about breasts. We'll put

11:13

a link to that particular essay on

11:16

the Dear Sugar website simply because it's

11:18

a more sophisticated and nuanced discussion

11:20

of gender relations and how Nora

11:22

Afron has struggled with this feeling

11:24

that she's more like a boy.

11:27

And it partly had to do with

11:29

developing breasts later in life and not

11:31

having big breasts, but it also had

11:33

to do with how she moved the

11:35

world, being more extroverted, being less apt

11:37

to have those quiet, sensitive, she presented

11:39

as quote unquote masculine. And there are

11:41

certain attributes that are associated with that

11:43

that aren't the kind of

11:46

more inward looking attributes that I think

11:48

women have the space to, or maybe

11:50

suffer the burden of coming to more

11:53

intuitively or more easily in the culture.

11:56

So you're picking up on something real, but you also

11:58

have a couple of good male friends who check

12:00

in on you and the other ones are they're

12:03

not equipped to do that and maybe you shouldn't expect

12:05

it of them. Am I wrong? I

12:07

don't think you're wrong. I think girlfriend

12:09

you're right. I too have

12:11

noticed this about my relationships with men fairly

12:14

across the board. Steve, you're an

12:16

exception. You know, you do ask

12:19

me how I am and when

12:21

I tell you, you actually ask more

12:23

questions and various times in my life

12:25

if you knew that things

12:27

were happening, you'd say, you know, I'm here for you

12:29

if you want to give me a call. You know,

12:32

and I think that you have a obviously a sort

12:34

of emotional intelligence and that

12:36

desire to make that emotional connection.

12:38

That's a little rare among your

12:40

male species, your straight male species.

12:43

But you know, I will say this is something girlfriend

12:45

I've struggled with too because you know,

12:47

I've sometimes felt really annoyed and angry.

12:49

I had a couple of my best,

12:51

you know, friends in graduate school were

12:54

these two guys who were in the program with me.

12:56

They were not just men. They were they were younger

12:58

than me and we were

13:01

great buds. But there was definitely this dynamic

13:03

of like that. I was kind of this

13:05

this mother. Yeah. And I do think that

13:07

this has happened fairly often in my friendships

13:09

with men where you know, like I'm the one who

13:11

can sort of provide for them or take care of

13:13

them or listen to them when they're in crisis. But

13:16

would I go to them for my treatment? Yeah,

13:18

but you know what I came to is

13:21

that's okay. You know, to me, this seems like

13:23

it's in the category of you

13:25

know, basically what you were saying Steve, like not every friend

13:27

is going to be everything to you. And I

13:30

also believe that either one of those guys, if

13:32

I picked up my phone right now and call

13:34

them and said, I really need to talk to

13:36

you, they would talk to me, you know,

13:39

and I think that part of this

13:41

idea really across the

13:44

board of making all our friendships work

13:46

is I could list, you know, 25

13:48

friends and there would be some

13:50

qualities they share some of the things that they all

13:52

give me and then and then there would be some

13:55

qualities that are unique to them. And I think that

13:57

the most important thing is

13:59

that I know that I value them in

14:01

my life and that I feel valued in theirs. And

14:04

to sort of ask everyone to be able

14:07

to do the same things is

14:09

impossible. And frankly, you know, girlfriend,

14:12

I bet you have this problem too. Some

14:14

of my women friends are like this too. I

14:17

have some, some of my best women friends, if

14:19

I assert myself and say, I need to talk to you

14:22

about my marriage, they'll have that conversation,

14:24

but they're never going to ask. Right.

14:27

And there is an aspect here, girlfriend, in which

14:30

sometimes women in this,

14:32

with this dynamic and these concerns will fall

14:34

into a pattern of trying to model for

14:36

these guys the way that they should behave

14:38

towards you. And really

14:41

you have the right to put the touch on

14:43

them and say, Hey, I know we're just joking

14:45

around everything, but there's a little something more serious

14:47

that's on my heart without expecting that

14:50

they're going to come to that on their own.

14:52

Because for whatever set of reasons, that really isn't

14:54

the business of the friendship in a certain way.

14:57

They just can't do that. But that doesn't mean that

14:59

they don't want to know the real you. Yeah. Right.

15:02

You know, girlfriend, one of the most enlightening

15:05

experiences for me when it comes to watching

15:07

men in friendships and women in friendships is, you

15:09

know, the close up view that I've had with

15:12

my husband, watching him with his

15:14

friends. And we kind of have this

15:16

running joke that, you know, he'll talk

15:18

to a friend and I'll have

15:21

assumed that they've talked deeply

15:23

about their relationships and

15:26

I'll say, well, what did you talk to Peter about? We're

15:29

really good friends with this couple, Peter and

15:31

Dorothy. And we often

15:33

will get together and we recently

15:35

went hiking in Vermont together. And

15:38

we're hiking along for hours. And

15:40

Dorothy and I, we go through the whole

15:42

thing. It's the family and the children and

15:45

the marriages and it's all the

15:47

emotional, like deep stuff. And

15:50

then, you know, we get to the end of this walk and I'm saying

15:52

to Brian, what'd you and Peter talk about?

15:55

Books, basketball, music,

15:57

you know, they talk about And

16:00

I always joke, our running joke is Brian always

16:02

his first answer is, well, we talked all about

16:05

our relationship. And what's

16:07

funny about it is, of course, what I've

16:09

come to realize is in some ways, basketball

16:11

books, music, this is Brian's way of having

16:13

intimacy with his friends. And

16:16

it's also true that he has a

16:18

deep emotional connection to Peter and to

16:20

many of his other male friends. And

16:22

he knows that they

16:24

love each other. He knows if he ever

16:26

really needed to have that emotional talk

16:28

that I have every day as a matter

16:30

of course with my female friends, that

16:33

Peter and his other close circle of friends would

16:35

be there for him. And they would have that

16:37

conversation. But they would rather talk about

16:39

basketball. They would rather talk about basketball.

16:42

And that's just the way it

16:44

is. And I frankly used to feel a tiny bit

16:46

judgmental of that. You should be delving

16:48

deeper. You should deepen

16:50

those bonds. But what I realize is

16:52

that's just my idea of what a deep bond

16:54

is. My sense is you should be talking more about

16:56

basketball. That's right. But I don't impose it

16:58

on you. Well, this is what you and Brian do too.

17:01

You talk about this sort of stuff. Yeah. I

17:03

mean, it's interesting. As you were talking, I was

17:05

like, well, we've had a talk about what's

17:07

going on in a deeper way

17:09

with his mom's passing. And so if we had that talk, I

17:11

really wanted to know. I knew that was going on. But

17:14

last night, we just played ping pong. Yeah. And

17:16

talked about the numerous spring theme books. That's right.

17:19

That was it. So, girlfriend, I would just caution you.

17:22

I think Steve's advice to say, well, keep

17:24

the bonds that matter most. But I would

17:27

also say, don't discard every bond that

17:29

doesn't give you everything you want.

17:32

Not every friendship is going to give you everything. And

17:34

sometimes it is nice just to play ping pong with somebody.

17:38

Long live ping pong. Long live ping pong. Okay.

17:41

Next letter. Dear Sugars, I am 46

17:44

and still happy and in love with my husband who

17:46

I've been with for many years. We

17:48

have a mutual good friend that we both knew

17:50

before we met. We have many

17:52

friends like that as we grew up in the same

17:54

neighborhood and knew many of the same people but didn't

17:56

end up crossing paths until we were in our later

17:59

20s. One friend,

18:01

though, has been acting in a way that

18:03

makes me uncomfortable and angers both me and

18:05

my husband. We'll call this friend Frank. He's

18:08

always had an openly perverted personality,

18:11

uses inappropriate humor, and is flirtatious,

18:13

but in the past has kept

18:15

it funny and impersonal. Everyone

18:17

knows that's just Frank. I've

18:20

never been bothered by it until recently when

18:22

it became personal. A couple of years

18:24

ago Frank texted me when I was at work. He

18:26

started flirting heavily, which caught me off guard, and

18:29

even asked me for the address from my office

18:31

so he could come by. I

18:33

didn't respond further. The next

18:35

day he texted me and said he was sorry

18:37

he was so out of line. He said he'd

18:39

been drinking and didn't mean to be so obnoxious.

18:41

I said, don't worry about it. My

18:44

husband and I talked about how the text

18:46

conversation got weird. I had my husband read

18:48

the text to make sure I wasn't overreacting.

18:51

My husband felt betrayed by Frank's behavior and

18:53

told me that Frank had been unfaithful to

18:55

his wife in the past. This was news

18:58

to me. I realized then Frank isn't

19:00

just all talk. Last

19:02

summer my husband worked a lot of overtime. While

19:05

he was working I attended several social events

19:07

with our group of friends that includes Frank

19:09

and his wife too, whom I like very

19:11

much and also consider my friend. At

19:14

one event Frank, after a few beers,

19:16

sat down next to me and looked me in

19:19

the eye and said, have I ever told you

19:21

that you've always been on my bucket list? He

19:23

meant, of course, having sex with me. He

19:26

went on and on about how he was attracted to me. I

19:29

was utterly stunned and embarrassed. I

19:31

didn't know what to say and was worried that someone

19:33

would overhear him and think we were having an affair.

19:36

I made a light-hearted comment, as if he'd

19:39

been joking, and excused myself to talk to

19:41

someone else. Sugars, I know

19:43

that Frank is at fault here and I know

19:45

I've done nothing to lead him to think I

19:47

would be interested in a relationship with him. What

19:50

is the best way for me to set him straight?

19:53

I have trouble being blunt even when

19:55

I should be because I hate hurting

19:57

another person's feelings. I want

19:59

to say something to Frank. Frank that makes

20:01

it clear that his behavior isn't okay and

20:03

must stop. I'm not sure how to say it.

20:06

Partially because I know if I say something,

20:08

he will say, oh, I'm just joking and

20:10

try to make me feel stupid. I

20:12

need help with making my point short,

20:15

sweet, and clear. Please help

20:17

me find the right words. Sincerely,

20:20

Frankly Annoyed. Frankly

20:23

Annoyed. This is a very easy

20:25

question to answer and a

20:27

hard thing to carry

20:29

out, especially for someone like you.

20:31

It's very apparent to me that

20:33

you are a people pleaser and

20:36

somebody who likes to smooth things

20:38

over and not make anyone uncomfortable.

20:41

But sometimes in life, we

20:43

are required to go

20:45

against that natural thing that we're inclined

20:48

to do and

20:50

do the opposite thing. And

20:52

almost always that is a great

20:54

test of our own strength and

20:56

character and it leads to us

20:58

becoming better people. And

21:01

this is going to be one of those moments

21:03

for you, Frankly Annoyed. You know

21:05

the words. You know that

21:07

Frank is acting inappropriately. He's not

21:09

joking. He has clearly

21:11

some sexual desire or some sexual

21:13

fantasy about you and you

21:16

do not want him to share that with you anymore. And

21:18

don't make it okay. Don't say, oh, I'm so flattered

21:20

that you're a traitor. All this stuff. It's

21:23

wrong. It's inappropriate. And you need to

21:25

set the record straight. It doesn't matter if

21:27

you hurt his feelings, okay? He's not concerned

21:29

about hurting yours by making you feel

21:32

so humiliated. So you need,

21:34

Frankly Annoyed, to say, Frank, you

21:36

have now numerous times sent me texts

21:38

that are inappropriate and you've said things

21:41

to me that are inappropriate. I

21:43

am married. I am not interested in

21:46

having anything but a friendship with you. And

21:49

you must stop saying these things to me. And

21:51

if you don't stop saying these things to me, I

21:53

am going to stop being your friend. Let

21:56

me take that one step further. I think that's

21:58

absolutely all right on the show. the money, I

22:00

think he's being a bully. And I

22:02

think what you have to do to Frank in this moment is

22:04

say, I have received this

22:06

unwanted attention from you even after I've made

22:09

it clear that I don't want it. I've

22:11

showed my husband your tax. And the next

22:13

time you say one word that

22:15

I deem inappropriate, your wife will know about

22:17

it. And it will be an issue

22:19

in your marriage because you've made it an issue in my marriage. This

22:22

is the kind of hectoring and bullying

22:25

that I do think is a byproduct

22:27

of the larger sort of patriarchal overlay.

22:29

You just wouldn't ... It's

22:32

almost impossible to think

22:35

of a woman behaving this way towards a man.

22:37

There's a kind of predatory nature to

22:40

this. And because you've rebuffed his advances,

22:42

he's humiliated and ashamed. And the way

22:44

that he's dealing with that is pushing

22:46

further, bullying you, making things uncomfortable for

22:48

you, even when he knows you're not

22:50

interested. It's that moment where the spurned

22:52

lover becomes your enemy. And

22:54

the only way to respond to that

22:56

is by saying, you're messing with my

22:58

marriage and my social circle, and I

23:00

am going to mess with your marriage

23:02

and your social circle. You

23:05

really want to be enemies, we'll be enemies. That's

23:07

right. And I think too, I want to

23:09

just say, so much of your letter, you've

23:12

rebuffed his advances, but in a way that

23:14

complies with essentially this very patriarchal social order.

23:16

And that is, you don't want to make anyone

23:19

uncomfortable. You say something to him

23:21

in a lighthearted way. I understand

23:23

why you've done those things, because trust me,

23:25

sister, I've done them too. But

23:27

we were both raised in a culture that

23:29

expects women to humor men who are being

23:31

ghastly to

23:34

them, to get along and go

23:36

along to keep the peace in

23:39

your marriage or in your circle of friends. And

23:41

I think that you just can't be the peacekeeper

23:43

anymore. And you need to be loud and proud

23:45

if he does not listen to you when you

23:47

tell him, don't do that again. I love Steve's

23:49

advice. Bring it into his marriage. Bring it into

23:52

your circle of friends too. Say out loud in

23:54

front of all those people. If he says something

23:56

to you like you're on my bucket list, look

23:58

around the room and say He

24:00

just told me that he would like to

24:02

have sex with me, even though here we

24:04

are married to other people who are allegedly friends.

24:07

Right. It's like when you said last week to the

24:10

letter writer, when you see a

24:12

moment where this guy is controlling, you need

24:14

to say the woman's concern

24:16

with her boyfriend being controlling and manipulative,

24:19

call him out in that moment. I

24:21

think it's great advice. I think it

24:23

might be impossible, frankly, annoyed for you,

24:26

just constitutionally, characterologically, to follow that advice,

24:28

but this guy has been sloppy. He

24:30

sent you a bunch of inappropriate texts.

24:33

It's evidence. It's there on your phone.

24:36

You could even put it ... If you

24:38

want to really make it uncomprontational, you can

24:40

say, listen, how do

24:42

you think your wife would feel if I

24:44

sent these texts to her and told her

24:46

the various comments that you've made? Because

24:49

if you think she would think it's

24:51

just a joke, well, we'll just test

24:53

that theory out. Yeah. I

24:56

call your bluff. You

24:58

can see where we're works up about this. Yeah, sorry. And

25:01

the reason it is, frankly, annoyed is because

25:04

the answer is clear. Most

25:07

of us want to be polite and

25:09

smooth things over and make things happy

25:12

and peaceful most of the time. But

25:14

sometimes those bullies push us

25:16

into the corner and we have to fight back. Okay,

25:32

I'm going to read the next letter, the last

25:34

letter actually. Dear

25:36

Sugars, recently my closest friend told

25:38

me he was in love with me. After

25:41

a whole week of discussing what it would mean

25:43

for our friendship if we became romantically involved with

25:45

each other, we decided we wanted to be

25:47

in a relationship. I had

25:50

originally wanted to test the waters without telling our

25:52

friends, but he insisted that he

25:54

wanted a relationship and that we should be

25:56

open with everyone about it, our friends and

25:58

families. Two days later,

26:00

we were having a conversation over text, and I

26:03

mentioned that I'd told one of our mutual friends

26:05

about our relationship, just as he'd asked me to

26:07

do. His response was, I'm

26:10

not sure this is worth shaking up our

26:12

social structure. Soon it

26:14

became clear that he was looking for an out

26:16

from our relationship. I'm not

26:18

one to beg someone to be with me, so

26:20

we ended the conversation and our relationship then and

26:22

there over text, two

26:24

days after it began. I told

26:27

him I was humiliated and heartbroken, and

26:30

I asked him to leave me alone. I haven't

26:32

heard from him since. My

26:34

question is this, Sugars, what now?

26:37

This is one of my most important friendships. We've

26:40

been in constant contact for more than a year.

26:42

Can our friendship survive this? Should I want

26:45

it to? Clearly this is not

26:47

the man for me when it comes to love, but

26:49

I'm most upset that he would treat a friend this

26:51

way. Was this a lapse in

26:53

judgment or does it speak to his character? It's

26:56

okay for him to not want to be with

26:58

me romantically, even though he told me he's been

27:00

in love with me for months. But I'm

27:02

torn about what comes next and how to handle

27:04

it. Signed, bewildered

27:07

friend. So

27:10

this is a lapse in judgment that does

27:12

speak to his character. This is a catch

27:15

and release kind of guy. The

27:17

whole idea is to catch and the moment you've got

27:19

it, then you release. And boy,

27:22

I'll tell you what a trap door

27:24

he opened underneath you. Because the moment

27:26

you say, hey, this crazy thing is

27:28

happening, I need to tell you because

27:31

my now boyfriend, I guess, told me I should,

27:33

you know, that we should, he

27:35

just drops you like a

27:37

hot potato by text. Like,

27:39

oh my God, clearly you're

27:42

not going to be romantically involved with him.

27:44

He sounds like until he gets his shit

27:46

seriously straightened out and comes to you with

27:48

an apology and an explanation. I wouldn't let

27:50

him anywhere near you. And I know that's

27:52

a painful thing to say,

27:54

because you're still attached to the idea that

27:56

you're going to retain this friendship. I'm sorry.

28:00

out of it, that is not how a friend behaves.

28:02

Mm-hmm. I agree with Steve,

28:04

the elder friend. And

28:06

I think that this sounds kind of

28:08

harsh, but I think you

28:10

had a breakup. And

28:12

he treated you badly, and you decided to part ways,

28:14

and you told him not to contact you anymore. And

28:17

I think that you need to just go forward, and

28:19

there are other people with whom you can be friends.

28:23

And there's also the possibility that he'll circle

28:25

back to you. But let him do

28:27

that work. I mean, we all

28:29

mess up. We all get confused. We all

28:32

say one thing at one point and

28:34

can't keep that promise. And I think

28:36

that if he comes to

28:39

that realization that in fact

28:41

he wronged you and that he does

28:43

value your friendship, let him

28:45

be the one to come to you and say that. What

28:48

I really hope you won't do is go crawling

28:50

back to him and say, please, please, please,

28:53

be nice to me again, because I just value our

28:55

friendship too much, even though you treated me like shit.

28:58

The person who did the wrong needs

29:00

to take responsibility for that and say,

29:03

I'm sorry, and I want to make

29:05

amends. And so bewildered friends, if indeed

29:07

this friend of yours comes to you and

29:10

says this, then let him

29:12

back in and see what happens and see

29:14

if those regrets are sincere. But

29:17

I don't see any reason for you to

29:19

loop back and say, oh, I value this

29:21

friendship so much it must be saved, because

29:23

he destroyed it. And so

29:25

you just need to walk forward, my

29:27

dear, just walk forward and put this

29:30

guy behind you. And

29:32

to circle back to the first letter that we

29:34

talked about, which was very much about what

29:37

are the perils when men and women,

29:39

heterosexual men and women engage in a

29:41

friendship? And can it always

29:43

lead to, isn't it inevitable that there

29:45

are romantic feelings that come up, desirous

29:47

feelings, and can a friendship

29:49

possibly survive that? And the answer to all those

29:51

questions is, yeah, but we've got

29:54

to hold up our ends of the bargain

29:56

and gently or more firmly declare, if

29:58

you want my friendship. Here's

30:00

what makes you worthy of it, right? A

30:02

basic level of consideration. You

30:05

don't have to be the sensitive guy who

30:07

reaches out, but you can't run over me

30:09

with a Mac truck of love and then

30:11

expect me to dust myself up and say,

30:13

please, can I have another? Yeah.

30:16

We're done. We're done. No more letters.

30:19

We have completely exhausted any pop. But

30:23

actually, I want to throw out a challenge to

30:25

our listeners, Cheryl, if I might. You

30:28

will have noticed that many of our listeners and

30:30

a lot of our letterwriters are women. I'm

30:32

curious because I do run into a lot of

30:35

men who listen to this show. I would love

30:37

just to get some feedback and maybe even some

30:39

questions from men who are struggling

30:42

with their friendships with women. So I

30:44

hereby throw down that gauntlet. You

30:46

know what I mean? Yeah. I

30:48

would like to hear what it is like from

30:51

the other direction. And I know that all of

30:53

our listeners, or at least based on what we

30:55

read, are deeply thoughtful people who aren't just going

30:57

to ask us, why doesn't she like basketball more?

30:59

Yeah. Well, I wonder if there is that corollary.

31:01

Why the hell does she always want to

31:04

talk? It's like deep thoughts with

31:06

the ladies. But you

31:08

know, I think that there is that kind

31:10

of thing where men are listening, but not

31:12

necessarily reaching out to communicate. And that's what

31:15

I am saying here. So if you're a

31:17

dude who's out there. Guess what we're going

31:19

to do? A theme show on basketball. Yeah.

31:23

Your dream has come true. This is

31:25

all your sports related questions. And

31:27

I'll do my very best to answer

31:29

them. Yeah, exactly. And I'll just remain

31:31

in a silent state of hysterics. All

31:34

right. This has been another episode of

31:36

Dear Sugar Radio. We're produced by W.B.R.

31:38

in Boston. We're produced and edited by

31:40

Amri Seabrootson. We're recording at

31:42

Talkback Sound and Visual in Portland, Oregon.

31:44

Our engineer is Josh Millman. Our

31:47

theme music is by the Portland band Wonderly.

31:49

Vocals are by Liz Weisz. Please

31:52

subscribe to Dear Sugar Radio on

31:54

iTunes or on your favorite podcast

31:57

app. And follow us on Twitter and Instagram

31:59

at DearSugarRadio. You can

32:01

also write us those sports-related

32:03

conundrums at [email protected]. Yes, absolutely.

32:05

Dude Hans, we want to

32:07

hear from you, Hans.