0:04

Hey, fellow travelers. I'm Laurie

0:06

Gottlieb. I'm the author of Maybe You

0:08

Should Talk to Someone, and I write the Dear

0:10

Therapist advice column for the Atlantic.

0:12

And I'm Guy Wench. I wrote Emotional

0:15

First Aid, and I write a Dear Guy column

0:17

for Ted. And this is Dear Therapists.

0:20

This week. A man is strange from

0:22

his daughter for twenty five years wants

0:24

a chance to reconnect. She said, I

0:26

changed my mind. I don't want you to come to my wedding.

0:29

And I just asked her, why

0:31

are you doing this? And she said

0:33

to me, you weren't there for my teenage

0:35

years, the last several years that I was growing

0:38

up. You just weren't in my life. I said, I wasn't in

0:40

your life because you kicked

0:42

me out. Listen in and maybe learn

0:44

something about yourself in the process. Dear

0:49

Therapists is for informational purposes

0:51

only, does not constitute medical advice,

0:53

and is not a substitute for professional medical

0:55

advice, diagnosis, or treatment.

0:58

Always seek the advice of your physician, mental

1:00

health professional, or other qualified health

1:02

provider with any questions you may have regarding

1:05

a medical condition. By submitting

1:07

a letter, you are agreeing to let IHOT media

1:09

use it in Potter and Full and we may

1:11

edit it for length and a clarity. Hi

1:14

Laurie, Hey guy, So

1:16

what do we have in our mailbooks today? Well,

1:19

this week we have a letter about a very

1:21

common but very tricky

1:24

situation. All right,

1:26

let's hear it, dear therapists.

1:29

My husband Lenny has been estranged from his daughter

1:31

Julia, who is now thirty eight, for over

1:33

twenty five years. She has

1:35

three children, and he, of course has never

1:38

met them. When Julia was ten,

1:40

he and I got married. She was severely

1:42

poisoned by her mom. At Julia's

1:45

wedding. Her mom passed out during the ceremony

1:47

upon seeing Lenny there. She was taken

1:49

to the hospital and never returned to the wedding.

1:52

Her own parents told my husband, there

1:54

she goes again. Every rabbi,

1:57

mental health professional, etc. Advised

1:59

him to wait until Julia grew up and moved out

2:01

of her mom's house, and that then she'd

2:03

come around. Lenny is a family

2:06

attorney and did not engage in a custody battle

2:08

because he knew what that could entail for Julia.

2:11

Throughout the years, he has sent Julia cards

2:13

and they were either returned, unopened, or never

2:15

acknowledged. Do you think there's any

2:17

hope at this point for Lenny to have a relationship

2:19

with Julia or at least know his grandchildren.

2:22

Thank you, Patricia.

2:24

This is a letter about parental

2:27

alienation and those situations

2:30

for a parent, but incredibly

2:33

painful to know you have kids

2:35

out there who just do not want any contact

2:37

with you. It's one of the most painful things parents

2:40

can go through. And then on the other side,

2:42

there's the child who's obviously going

2:44

through or has gone through something incredibly painful

2:46

that made them monta cutoff contact.

2:49

And these are very difficult cases to

2:52

deal with. When we

2:54

get something like that enough clinics, because we rarely

2:56

get both parties coming in. It's usually the

2:59

parent coming in and say, I do not

3:01

have any contact and I don't know how to re establish it.

3:03

Yeah, And I think what's so hard about it is that usually

3:06

the parent feels like maybe

3:08

they made some mistakes but it

3:10

didn't merit alienation.

3:13

That they're also being portrayed

3:16

in a way that isn't accurate, and

3:18

that leaves them feeling like they need to defend themselves.

3:21

They feel like they want to just throw up their hands because

3:24

they don't feel like they can clear

3:26

up these misperceptions that have been so embedded

3:29

in the fabric of the family at this point.

3:31

And yet there's so much longing to

3:35

reconnect with that child,

3:37

and when there's grandchildren involved, it

3:39

makes it even more painful. And

3:43

one of the things she mentioned in the letter was

3:45

that he didn't want to embolk on a big custody

3:47

fight because it didn't think it would be good for his daughter. But

3:49

that then puts him at such a

3:51

disadvantage in that sense.

3:53

And I've worked with so many parents who, like

3:55

I, tried to do the right thing and it cost me

3:58

the relationship because I didn't want to put my door in

4:00

the middle. It ended up my ex did that.

4:02

So there's incredible amounts of frustration

4:05

towards the X because of that outcome.

4:08

Yeah, and I wonder why it's

4:10

the wife who has reached out to

4:12

us on her husband's behalf, because

4:15

it might be that he just

4:17

feels so stuck and she

4:20

sees that, and she sees the pain and

4:23

really wants to kind of right this

4:25

wrong. And I think

4:27

I know how we can find out. Let's

4:29

go talk to them, Let's do that you're

4:33

listening to Dea Therapists from iHeartRadio.

4:36

We'll be back after a quick break. I'm

4:44

Laurie Gottlieb and I'm Guy Wench and

4:46

this is Dea Therapists. Hi.

4:48

Patricia, thanks for your letter. Hi,

4:51

thanks for taking it on. And

4:53

I see we also have Lenny,

4:55

your husband, yes, with

4:58

us, which is great. So it's so glad that you

5:00

could come on the show. Thank you,

5:02

Thanks for having us. It's a very

5:04

painful situation that you described,

5:07

and we'd love to hear a little bit more of the history

5:09

there of what happened over the years, how that

5:11

alien nation happened between

5:15

you, Lenny and Julia.

5:18

I got divorced from

5:20

my first wife in nineteen ninety

5:22

two. Subsequently

5:26

I met Patricia. Interestingly,

5:29

we met over a lunch

5:31

that my daughter invited her daughter

5:34

to come to, and then we met afterwards

5:37

and started talking and started

5:39

going out, and a year later

5:41

we got married. And

5:44

at the time, I

5:47

had what I considered to be a very close,

5:49

very bonded relationship with my daughter

5:52

Julia. And interestingly,

5:55

Patricia was not the first person I had dated. After

5:57

I got divorced. I had gone out with a number

5:59

of people never any issues. Somehow

6:03

this became a major issue. My

6:06

ex wife, Sunday was

6:09

very upset that I was dating someone who

6:11

also lived in our community. We live in

6:13

a fairly small community,

6:15

and she'd basically threatened me

6:18

and warned me I better not get married or there

6:20

would be consequences. So the

6:22

consequences were that my

6:25

daughter rather quickly

6:27

stopped seeing me. First, we were having

6:30

what I would consider to be a real legitimate

6:33

joint custody where she would spend half the time

6:35

with me, half the time with her mother. That

6:38

quickly became a meal once a week,

6:41

which then became nothing. Once a week. I

6:43

would go over to pick my daughter up,

6:46

she would say to me or my daughter, in

6:48

front of both of us, oh, sol and soak,

6:51

just your friend just caught up. Wanted to invite you

6:53

for dinner, but you have to go out with your father, or

6:55

she say things like I wish your father

6:57

would get cancer and die. That

7:00

would be better for both of us. I mean, I'm literally

7:02

telling you what happened. My daughter was

7:04

ten years old at the time. What was

7:07

Julia's reaction when this was

7:09

set in front of her? Do you remember did

7:11

she say anything, did

7:14

she look at you. Did she look at her mom? Do you remember

7:16

how she reacted to this? I'm going back

7:19

literally twenty seven years. I

7:22

kept a diary at the time, and

7:24

all I can tell you was her attitude

7:27

became much more negative towards me, angry.

7:30

She would take on the tone

7:32

and the words of her mother. It

7:34

became if we were going out, I had to take her

7:36

somewhere to buy her something, clothes or

7:39

whatever. That's how it became. If

7:41

I wouldn't do it, we weren't going out. What

7:44

was her relationship like with the friend,

7:46

which I guess is Patricia's daughter,

7:49

right? So that was how you guys met

7:51

was through her friend? Was your daughter

7:54

Patricia? Yes? So what

7:56

happened to that friendship once the two of you

7:58

started dating? And how did your daughter react?

8:00

So interestingly, my

8:03

daughter has disabilities

8:06

and Julia

8:08

and my daughter were in the same girl scout

8:11

troop, so Julia would

8:13

invite sometimes my daughter over

8:16

for a Saturday. Neil

8:19

kind of fatter the goodness of her

8:21

heart because she didn't have a lot of friends

8:24

my daughter, so it

8:26

was less a friendship and more

8:28

a good deed, shall we say. So,

8:31

it wasn't like their friendship

8:33

then died out because it was never

8:36

really a friendship to begin with. Was

8:38

your daughter okay with you dating Lenny? My

8:41

daughters were fine with it. Yeah, my daughters

8:43

were fine with it. Yes. Interestingly,

8:47

one of the main factors I believe

8:50

is because my ex husband

8:53

gave them what I call permission

8:56

to like this man

8:59

who would never be their father, but who

9:01

would be their stepfather. That's

9:04

a really good thing he did to his credit,

9:07

Lenny, can you tell us a little bit about

9:09

your relationship with Cindy,

9:13

your ex wife at the time of the divorce.

9:15

Was it very acrimonious. Yes. When

9:18

Patricia got divorce, she had a

9:21

perfect divorce, very friendly, using

9:24

mediation. Everything worked fine and

9:26

there was really no animosity.

9:30

When I got divorced, I had a

9:32

war the Roses type situation. We

9:35

had a marriage that was not a good

9:37

marriage. My parents got divorced, and I

9:39

was very young, and I did not want

9:41

to get divorced, so I stayed in the marriage

9:43

way too long. But Cindy

9:46

would often say to me, we should get divorced.

9:48

I don't know why we're together. Eventually

9:51

I reached that point where I agreed,

9:54

and then I tried to go to counseling to see if

9:56

that would help. It didn't, so I

9:58

pushed forward with the divorce. We

10:00

got divorced very quickly after

10:02

you went to counseling and you said, let's go ahead and

10:04

get divorced. Was she's still on board with getting

10:07

divorced an

10:09

action did? Yes? But in reality

10:11

I don't believe so. Is Julia

10:14

your only child together? Julia

10:16

is my only natural child. And I

10:18

think you said, Patricia and Yoletta that you

10:20

had consulted professionals and they all suggested,

10:23

Lenny to you that just wait until she's

10:26

at the house and she has less influence

10:29

from Cindy, and then things should

10:32

be better. Was there any shift? What did

10:34

happen when Julia did

10:36

leave her mom's house. We

10:38

had seen many psychotherapists

10:41

over the first years, trying to see

10:43

what could be done. Who's Patricia

10:45

and we went to a clinic and

10:48

I arranged for therapy

10:50

for my daughter. I try to keep

10:52

it out of the courts because as

10:54

a family court attorney who deals with

10:57

the worst stuff, I knew what could be and

10:59

I try to avoid that. My

11:01

daughter graduated from high school,

11:03

went to Israel for a year to

11:06

study there and I

11:09

went over, I reached out

11:11

and started having a relationship with

11:13

my daughter. At that point. We emailed

11:16

back and forth for the year I

11:18

met her there, we went out.

11:21

When she came back, we went out to lunch one

11:23

time, and then she was back

11:25

in her mother's home or within a couple of days. That

11:27

was the end of it. Was there any discussion

11:29

when you were seeing her, any processing about

11:32

what had happened about the relationship.

11:34

Was it just with seeing each other and being very tentative,

11:37

or did you actually talk about what had gone on

11:39

at that point for the last eight nine years. I

11:41

believe it was just being friendly

11:44

and trying to re establish communication. We

11:46

really did not discuss what went on.

11:48

There were certain things I couldn't discuss with her. She just

11:50

wand't let me go there. What kinds of things.

11:53

Well, if I would try to bring up anything

11:55

like this, she would just not respond or

11:57

change the subject. And I wanted

12:00

to try to reestablish a relationship,

12:02

so I didn't want to push her away. Do

12:06

you have any sense of if

12:08

she were to answer that question at

12:10

that point in her life, what she would have said about

12:14

why she had broken off contact

12:16

with you. I feel

12:18

I do, because a few years

12:20

later, she got engaged, got married, and

12:24

apparently I had learned that

12:26

through a lot of pressure being

12:28

applied by her mother's family, she

12:31

eventually invited me.

12:33

At first, my name wasn't on the imitation, nothing

12:36

of that nature. But then she invited

12:38

me. I was excited and thrilled

12:40

and made the arrangements, and then

12:45

about a week or two before the wedding, she

12:47

disinvited me. She said, I changed my

12:49

mind. I don't want you to come to my wedding. We

12:52

were able to arrange to meet at

12:54

someone's home and we talked

12:57

and I just asked her. I

12:59

said, I don't understand what you're doing. Why are you doing

13:01

this? And she said

13:04

to me, she said, you weren't there for my teenage

13:06

years, the last several years that I was growing

13:08

up. You just weren't in my life. I said, I wasn't in

13:10

your life because you kicked

13:13

me out, your mother forbid me to be to your about

13:15

mitzvah or anything that was important.

13:17

She said, I know, but you still

13:19

weren't there anyway. So I

13:22

feel that she was angry. Maybe she felt

13:24

I didn't try hard enough. That's a question

13:26

that I'm wondering about So when you say

13:29

that Cindy wouldn't let you come to

13:31

Julia's bot mitzvah, couldn't

13:34

you have shown up at the bot mitzvah?

13:36

Maybe not the party, but the service. I

13:38

was told by several people in the community

13:40

not to come to any parties. There

13:43

wasn't much. I don't think there was any service at

13:45

all. Did you communicate

13:47

with her at all at the time to say,

13:50

you know, congratulations or I'm

13:52

really sad that I'm not going to be there, I'm

13:54

so proud of you. Was there any communication

13:57

going on like that at all? Yes, that

13:59

bot gifts for her which I was never

14:01

able to give her, and I did try,

14:03

even though I wasn't there. I would let her know

14:06

how much I loved her by writing to her, by

14:08

leaving messages on the phone, because she wasn't

14:11

picking up at the time, I believe, but

14:13

I did let her know. So

14:15

you were saying right before the wedding, there was I

14:17

think before the wedding, said there was this meeting and she

14:19

explained she doesn't want you there because you were absent

14:22

from her teenage years. Little bit because he went aloud.

14:25

But then you did end up coming to the wedding.

14:28

How did that come about? So, as

14:30

you can imagine, that was one of the worst

14:32

weeks in my life. I was just very despondent,

14:34

very upset. I spoke

14:37

to our rabbi and he insisted

14:39

that I go to the wedding, that I

14:42

had to go to the wedding, to the ceremony, and

14:44

so he said he'll go with me, and so

14:47

we went and I

14:49

walked in and I saw the

14:51

other side of the family that everyone

14:53

came over to me and they just hugged me and kissed

14:55

me and thanked me for coming. They

14:57

then took me in to meet my future son, and

15:01

then I took a seat in the audience

15:03

so as not to make a scene or anything.

15:06

And then Cindy and Julia

15:08

and my former father in law walked

15:10

down together down the aisle. They

15:12

had the ceremony, and

15:15

towards the end of the ceremony, Cindy

15:17

just fainted and passed out into

15:19

the arms of a rabbi. It was just, you

15:23

can't put words into it. What

15:25

was Julia's reaction to seeing you, because she also

15:27

didn't know that you'd be there. I

15:32

did not go into the room

15:34

where the bride sits before

15:37

the wedding, because I did not want to create

15:39

a scene. I just wanted to attend

15:41

my daughter's wedding. My

15:43

feeling was that, besides

15:46

the fact that I'd have a right to see my own daughter

15:49

get married, I felt that she shouldn't

15:51

have to go through life later on dealing

15:54

with why she did

15:56

not allow her father to be there.

16:00

Happened when Julia did see you though, because

16:02

she must have seen you there, I

16:06

can't even remember having eye contact

16:08

with her. To be honest,

16:12

what was Julia's reaction when Cindy

16:15

fainted? It was really towards the

16:17

end they finished it up. They kind of moved

16:20

Cindy off to the side, and

16:22

then they and then after the ceremony, they

16:24

attended to her and her parents and siblings

16:27

stayed with me and just basically said, there

16:29

she goes again with the theatrics.

16:31

She allowed them to take her to a local

16:34

hospital apparently missed

16:36

the wedding, and then the rab I called me a

16:38

little later and said, she's getting

16:40

her strength together, she's starting to spend

16:42

this that you're just you just ruined

16:44

your daughter's wedding, so you should leave,

16:47

which I did. Has there been contact

16:49

at all between you and Julia since

16:51

then? And what efforts did you make

16:53

sense then to try and stay in touch

16:56

in some way? No. I would write letters,

16:59

I would send gifts at first,

17:01

but everything one unanswered. How

17:04

did you know what her address was so she

17:06

was an adult now or did you send her emails?

17:08

How did you try to contact her? People

17:10

in the community seem to know where she

17:13

was? And then now it's

17:15

say the later two

17:17

thousand, so you can start googling.

17:21

I learned what google meant, and you can start

17:23

googling addresses. And I actually

17:25

spoke to my former in

17:27

law several times because they

17:29

would come to visit another adult

17:32

child who was living in this community, and

17:34

I believe I may have found out from them. So

17:37

literally, no contact directly

17:40

on the phone or otherwise.

17:42

Julia really since the wedding

17:45

in many many years right now now,

17:47

And so

17:50

the answer is no, and the irony is her mother

17:52

then moved to that community to be near her too.

17:55

I'm curious to know what you said in those letters.

17:58

Do you remember I

18:00

would tell her how much I loved her, how

18:03

much I cared about her, how important

18:05

it was to try to establish a relationship

18:08

again, to try to see things from

18:10

her perspective. As difficult

18:12

as it is to put this on me, it

18:14

actually came back unopened, so

18:16

I know she never saw it. So this was

18:18

through the mail. It wasn't through email. Yeah.

18:21

I emailed my son in law a number of times to

18:23

try to reach through him, so I must have emailed

18:26

Jolia too, and I was getting no response.

18:28

So Patricia, I have a question for you. So this

18:31

has gone on for so many years. Why

18:34

now, how did you write

18:36

to us and ask for

18:39

help? Well, we talk

18:41

about this a lot throughout

18:43

all the years, and

18:46

as we're getting older, and

18:50

Lenny has three granddaughters

18:52

who he's never met. The oldest is either twelve

18:54

or thirteen, so he would often say,

18:57

I hope when they get older, they'll

18:59

at least google me to know that I'm alive,

19:02

because they've probably been told that I'm

19:04

dead or whatever. So maybe that's a chance

19:06

I have. He

19:09

actually tried with another therapist

19:11

a few years ago, and that therapist

19:13

recommended he write a letter. He did

19:15

that went nowhere. All these letters come

19:18

back returned to sender unopened.

19:20

Whatever, nothing gets anywhere. So

19:23

as time goes on, is there

19:25

something else we could do? At this point, is

19:27

there another rock we could turn? There's

19:30

got to be something. It's never too late,

19:32

that's my attitude. It's never too late as

19:34

long as we're on this side of the earth. So

19:38

one night, it was like midnight, I said, what the heck?

19:40

I just stream of consciousness wrote that, just

19:43

reaching out. He didn't even know I wrote it

19:45

because it's so

19:47

painful. I mean, I have three daughters, and

19:51

Lannie is very connected

19:53

to them, so it

19:56

just hurts me to know that he's got

19:59

three beautiful granddaughters. And

20:02

I mean, this is like the worst case scenario

20:04

parent alienation syndrome carrying

20:06

on into the next generation.

20:09

I mean, can there ever be something,

20:12

some inroads, some crack in that window.

20:15

I also tried through the rabbis, and

20:18

I was able to locate her rabbi,

20:20

and I tried reaching out that way

20:23

again. I just got nowhere. The

20:25

Rabbi wouldn't respond to you. He spoke to

20:27

me for two minutes one day, sett'll

20:31

speak to me again a few days later. I've

20:33

been emailing him and calling him, leaving

20:36

messages. I just stopped. At

20:38

some point it was clear he wasn't going any

20:40

further. So again

20:42

I started thinking well, maybe if there

20:45

can't I say that in quote be

20:47

a relationship with Julia.

20:49

Can there be some connection

20:52

with grandkids? I mean,

20:55

it just seems just so overwhelmingly

20:57

sad that there should be such a generational

21:00

cutoff. Lenny,

21:03

do you know anything about

21:06

Julia's life other than the fact that she has

21:08

these three kids? Is

21:11

there a part of you that from

21:14

Afar is really proud of

21:16

her. You look at what she's done,

21:18

and you're just filled

21:20

with I guess just parental

21:23

pride and love even with all the pain

21:26

that's going on in the background, or I should

21:28

say in the foreground. I

21:30

know something about her life,

21:33

I honestly don't know very much.

21:36

I'm just wondering if your friend Google got you

21:38

anywhere, or even the people in the community.

21:40

You're in the community. It's a small community.

21:42

I'm wondering how much you know about

21:45

Julia, where her life has taken her, and

21:47

her husband and his life.

21:51

So I do Google

21:53

things or Facebook things, because

21:56

I do try to stay in touch and see

21:58

what I can find out of my friends.

22:00

Who seems to be able

22:02

to get some information. He's providing

22:04

me with the pictures of my three granddaughters,

22:07

and he would always say to me. He'd say,

22:10

if you want me to send this to you because I know how

22:12

painful it is, And I'd say absolutely,

22:15

I say I want to see it. I

22:17

do get a lot of pride, and

22:19

as I said, I love my daughter. I think

22:22

what she's done is a terrible thing because

22:24

it wasn't just me. She cut off my mother,

22:27

my grandmother when they were alive.

22:30

It's just the whole family. Can

22:32

you tell me what you love about Julia?

22:38

That's a hard question, but I

22:40

wasn't expecting take

22:44

your time. I

22:52

don't know if I can even answer that. I don't.

22:54

I know so little about her, and

22:58

I mean, she's thirty eight, and

23:01

I just I

23:04

don't know anything about her really, when

23:06

you get down to it, tell me what you

23:08

loved about her when she was little.

23:12

I loved her smile. I thought

23:14

she had a good heart. We

23:17

had a very bonded relationship. What

23:20

did you do together? We

23:23

played games, board

23:25

games. Unfortunately, when

23:27

we would go out as a family, it was basically

23:30

me and Julia, and then there was Sunday

23:32

as opposed to me and Syndia. Then there was Julia.

23:35

What do you mean that when you went out it was you and

23:37

Julia, and there was Cindi instead of you and Cyndi

23:40

and there was Julia. I feel like a

23:42

couple is the main

23:46

core, like will be me

23:48

and Patricia for example if movement out, and then there's

23:50

the children who are the

23:53

extended part of you. But here

23:56

it was more like it was Julia

23:58

and me as the APO, and

24:01

Sinday was the extended part. Let

24:04

me. I know that at the time

24:06

of the divorce, when Julia

24:09

was still a minor, your feeling

24:12

was, I can't get into this fight

24:14

with Cindy because Julia

24:16

will be collateral damage and I don't

24:19

want that for her. She will

24:21

be the one to suffer. So I'm going

24:23

to stay on the sidelines for

24:25

her benefit as much as possible.

24:28

And I'm wondering whether you've

24:31

considered over the years, since she's become an

24:33

adult, stepping out

24:35

of the sidelines or do something

24:37

that exactly the kind of thing that you would

24:40

never really do when there's a custody

24:42

negotiation going on, or when there's the

24:44

option for her to get really caught

24:46

in the middle there. Yeah, but you consider

24:48

doing anything that is more proactive

24:51

since she's been an adult. So we're

24:54

I guess laughing or smiling. Because

24:56

Patricia has that conversation with me

24:58

very often. She's always

25:01

prompting me and

25:04

pushing me. It's very much in my court in

25:06

that regard. I think,

25:08

if I'm honest enough with myself

25:10

and I look at all these years that have gone

25:12

by, the bottom line is I haven't

25:15

done enough. I feel

25:17

that I haven't really done

25:19

much other than the letters and the cards.

25:22

In that regard, I don't feel

25:24

like I've stepped up to the plate. Did

25:27

you not step up to the plate because

25:29

you don't want to make it difficult for

25:32

Julia by having that potential

25:34

confrontation or did you not step

25:36

up to the plate because you were trying to save

25:39

yourself the hardacre further rejection

25:41

In person, I would tell you it's

25:43

both. Really, I have to say I've

25:46

compartmentalized this whole thing to

25:49

live my life. It's so

25:51

painful and so difficult, and

25:53

there are certain movies that will watch and Patitia

25:56

will see me cry during those movies when

25:58

they involved parents, children or

26:01

reconnecting. It's

26:03

so difficult, and I

26:06

think a large part of it is I've

26:08

blocked it. I've really blocked it,

26:11

and it's like opening up a

26:13

really sore wound. So

26:16

that's certainly a big part of it, and

26:19

that might be where there's

26:21

some disconnection

26:24

between the perception of what

26:27

you think is going on and the perception of

26:29

what Julia thinks is going on. Because

26:33

that comment that you made to you about well,

26:35

you weren't really there during my teen years, and you said

26:37

yes, but you made sure I wasn't there.

26:39

You didn't want me there during your teen

26:41

years. I think there's this fantasy

26:44

that all children have, even adult children

26:46

of my parents, are going to fight for me,

26:49

even if you're telling them go away.

26:52

Right when you think of little kids when

26:54

they say to their parents, go away, I hate

26:56

you. They don't really want you

26:58

in that moment. They feel that, but they don't

27:00

really want that to happen. I

27:03

think it's interesting that Patricia

27:05

was the one who nudges you. Patricia

27:08

is the one who wrote the letter to us today

27:11

because this is just so painful for

27:13

you that it's hard to

27:16

open that door emotionally

27:19

for yourself because you feel

27:21

like you won't survive it. That's

27:25

true, and at the same time I

27:27

imagine that maybe

27:30

from Julia's perspective, there is

27:32

some element of he didn't fight for

27:34

me hard enough, even

27:36

if the message was go away.

27:41

And I get that, I

27:43

get that you're asking, is that something

27:45

I can do? Are you

27:48

clear that even if

27:50

there is something you can do, to do

27:52

it would be to open up

27:54

that wound that you've been able to

27:56

complementalize. To do it would be

27:59

to really risk a lot

28:01

of pain. And I'm asking if that's something

28:03

you've thought through, if that's something you're actually

28:06

indeed looking forward. Is that something you are

28:08

you humoring, Patricia? Or

28:10

is that something that you're ready

28:12

to do now to go and fight now? Is that

28:15

something you will be ready to do? So?

28:18

I would certainly tell you, am I afraid? Is

28:21

that a big factor? Absolutely? Can

28:23

you talk more about the fear? So?

28:27

I'm very scared

28:29

about this. My stomach has

28:31

been just a wreck

28:34

the entire week just thinking

28:36

about it and really

28:38

opening the sail up again. I

28:40

don't know what else to do anymore, and I think

28:42

I had to become more proactive. So

28:46

I'm prepared to do whatever anyone

28:48

could think of to try to see if I

28:50

could break the stalemate. What

28:53

do you fear more that you'll try

28:56

something and it won't work, or

28:58

that things will stay the way that

29:00

they are. I'm

29:03

not sure there's a difference, because if I try something

29:05

and it doesn't work, then things are going to stay

29:08

the way they are. It's really

29:10

the same thing. To me, there is a difference

29:12

because you will be smarting from the pain

29:15

in a fresh way if

29:17

you try something now and it doesn't work. Yeah,

29:21

and that's a good point. I don't

29:23

know. I've learned to live with this for

29:25

so many years, and

29:29

I don't know what it can do to my life.

29:32

It's very scary. What is the worst

29:34

possible thing that you think it could do to your life?

29:36

If you reach out, you get

29:39

really proactive about this, and

29:43

she still doesn't want to have contact with you. The

29:46

worst thing, I guess would be my health. Honestly,

29:49

I had a heart attack years ago. I'd be afraid

29:51

it happened again. Patricia thinks

29:54

that it was all caused by stress or am I

29:56

holding it back or combination.

29:59

As scary thing and

30:02

are you also will any that

30:04

in the best case scenario, that

30:08

is that you take some kind of action

30:11

and it does work and she's willing

30:13

in some way to have some kind of contact

30:15

with you, that there would be a lot of

30:18

processing and very difficult conversations

30:21

to be had. In other words, that the difficult moment

30:23

is not just the moment of you

30:26

taking action, but it will be many moments

30:28

that follow, because this is a relationship

30:31

that would need a lot of work

30:33

if it were to get into the right track. Is that something

30:35

you're also considering

30:37

that this is not just a one time shot

30:40

but probably an ongoing exposing

30:42

of the wound and all of it. So I'm

30:45

prepared to do that. In fact, in one of the letters

30:47

I wrote her, maybe more than one, I'd suggest

30:49

that we go to counseling. She

30:51

picked the consoler, she picked the time, the

30:53

place. I understand that's exactly

30:56

what I'd have to do. I think

30:58

one of the things that's scary as may

31:00

is that, at least

31:02

initially, if we get

31:05

anywhere, it would require

31:07

me to have contact

31:10

alone, that Patricia's cut

31:12

out of that. Probably that

31:14

bothers me tremendously. I haven't

31:17

even discussed it with her, right because

31:19

Patricia just turned at you like, m what

31:21

do you mean? That was the expression, Yeah,

31:25

we're two separate people, and that bothers

31:28

me tremendously. But I

31:30

know that would have to be the case. And

31:33

Patricia does too, probably right at

31:36

least at the beginning. The

31:39

thing is, you are two separate people, and there

31:41

are a bunch of relationships

31:43

here. There's Julia's relationship

31:45

with you, There's Julia's relationship with Patricia.

31:48

There's your relationships respectively

31:51

with the grandkids potentially

31:53

the son in law, and your relationship

31:56

with each other, and how this affects that as

31:58

well. It sounds like Patricia

32:00

has been a great support for you

32:03

throughout all of this. She's

32:07

a rock, yeah, and so having

32:09

to go into this without

32:12

her meaning she'll be there to support you, but

32:14

she won't be by your side because

32:18

Julia probably would not want that right now, right

32:21

So I'm not afraid to do

32:23

it alone in that regard. I just don't like

32:25

cutting her out. What I'm hearing

32:27

is there are so many reasons based

32:30

in fear, and

32:33

the fears that you're describing, I think are just one

32:35

when you sum it all up, and that's

32:37

the fear of having

32:40

your heart stomped off

32:42

again. So

32:44

you can say, well, I don't like that Patricia wouldn't

32:46

be a part of this. I don't like this or that or

32:48

the other aspect of it. But I

32:51

think at the end of the day you

32:53

said, and I think it's very symbolic. You said, I'm

32:55

afraid of having another heart attack the

32:57

seat of love. That

33:00

your fear is that your heart in

33:03

every way might not be able to

33:05

endure this. Yeah,

33:09

And at the same time, I don't know that your heart can endure

33:12

leaving things the way they are, knowing

33:14

that you didn't act

33:17

as proactively as you might have ANTICI

33:21

said something very similar to me last night,

33:24

And those really are the

33:26

choices. You have the choices to do

33:29

nothing, but then have that question

33:32

of what if I had taken

33:34

more proactive action and living

33:36

with that, or risking taking more

33:39

proactive action and risking getting

33:41

your heart stumped on because when you take

33:43

proactive action in this kind of situation,

33:46

there is always hope,

33:49

and it's the hope that gets dashed that is

33:51

so painful. And there's

33:53

no way to take proactive action without

33:56

allowing the hope to come through. And you've been able to

33:58

compartmentalize for many years and keep pope

34:00

down and keep expectations down,

34:02

but it won't be possible to do that if you're actually

34:05

planning to take action. So those are the risks,

34:08

and you're saying very clearly Lenny, which I'm

34:10

kind of glad to hear that I would rather risk

34:14

having my heart stumped on so even

34:16

if it doesn't work out, I'll be able to say to myself,

34:19

I did what I could. I'm

34:21

saying that, Patricia, you're nodding

34:24

along as any speaking. You seem to be so

34:26

supportive. You seem to be really clear about

34:28

Yes, of course I can't be there right away. So

34:31

you've thought about this a lot, and because you've been

34:33

living with it for so long, I'm

34:35

just curious. Have you ever thought about what

34:38

is the most proactive thing

34:41

you could see Lenny doing? Wow,

34:47

that's a great question. What is the most

34:49

proact showing up at her apartment

34:53

because we've talked about that. You

34:55

have, Yeah, we've talked about like when

34:58

the letters come back, like go to her partment

35:00

house and just seeing what the apartment number

35:02

is, because one came back saying wrong apartment

35:05

number, So I think, go to the apartment house,

35:07

like do your own investigation, just

35:09

show up. I know

35:11

that's huge, but I'm

35:14

nodding from the perspective of

35:17

Lenny's talking and the

35:20

heaviness and the pain, and I'm also

35:22

nodding because everything you're saying

35:24

is just so amazingly

35:26

right on. I mean, the visuals of

35:28

the heart being stomped in the metaphor

35:30

of the heart attack and the breaking, I mean, it's

35:32

so powerful. And

35:35

fear is a huge factor in Lenny's

35:38

personality and doing

35:40

what he's done up until now, or not

35:42

doing what he's done up until now, because the hurt

35:45

and the fear of rejection has outweighed

35:49

the benefit. I bring it up openly

35:52

and say, if you were to die tomorrow

35:55

and on your deathbed, would you be

35:57

okay that

36:00

you did enough that this was it? And

36:02

sometimes in the past his answers

36:04

have been yes, because

36:09

the pain of re engaging

36:11

and opening that up is too

36:13

horrific, too hard. But

36:16

of late it's been

36:18

not such an obvious answer. So maybe

36:20

there's starting to be a shift. Maybe there's starting

36:23

to be a shift since I got the response

36:25

from your letter, But these conversations, even

36:27

in the last ten days, have started

36:29

shifting. Oh, there's a shift, because

36:31

Lenny is really clear right now, and so

36:34

there's definitely been a shift. You didn't waffle

36:36

on that you're clear right, I'm class

36:38

So that's a big shift. Yes, and

36:40

sometimes these shifts happen as people

36:43

get older and they start to really come

36:45

to terms with the reality

36:47

that they might not have as much time to

36:50

fix something that maybe they imagine

36:53

they would have earlier

36:55

on oh, for something to get fixed

36:57

spontaneously, because she comes to some kind of epiphany,

37:00

right that the urgency, the urgency becomes

37:02

heightened as people get older. I

37:05

see also on your face, Patricia, throughout

37:07

this conversation, I've seen how much

37:09

you care about Lenny and love

37:11

him, and as a parent yourself, how much

37:13

you can empathize with

37:17

the pain that he's experiencing.

37:19

And I wonder if you're

37:22

holding a lot of the pain

37:24

for him that he's not

37:26

able to feel himself. Yeah.

37:29

I mean, it's going to sound wrong, but I'm

37:32

caring for the two of us, Like, yes, I

37:34

care more than he cares. Now that's not the truth,

37:36

of course he cares more, But it

37:38

feels like I care more because

37:41

this uses me to the point of doing

37:43

things about it and trying whatever

37:46

cookie thing I could possibly think, like

37:48

writing a letter to us. Yeah, right, that

37:51

cookie thing. And he's comfortable

37:55

closing the door, locking it, putting

37:57

the key in a compartment and saying, let

38:00

me just live my life with my step

38:02

grandchildren and I'm doing

38:04

fine. Why you're rocking the boat.

38:07

It's not that you care more, it's

38:10

that it doesn't hurt as

38:13

much for you to think about it. You

38:16

know. There's another piece of this, which is that there's

38:18

often so much shame for the

38:21

estranged parent in a community

38:24

where you have to explain to

38:26

people all the time where you just meet people and they

38:28

say, do you have kids, and yes, I

38:30

have a daughter. Oh you know, tell me about your

38:32

daughter right where you might be out socially and

38:35

then oh, it's just such

38:37

a point of pain right

38:39

there. And then what do you say? And do

38:41

you have a story that so you don't have to get into

38:43

it with strangers or people that you don't know that

38:46

well. In daily life this

38:48

comes up where you're reminded

38:51

and there's a lot

38:53

of shame because I think a lot of times the estranged

38:55

parent worries that people are going to think, well, what did

38:57

this person do that their daughter doesn't talk

39:00

to them anymore for all of these years that he

39:02

can't see his grandchildren. What's the

39:04

real story there? What happened? And

39:07

so I can understand Lenny why

39:09

part of you thinks it's easier to just

39:12

kind of live the way you're living and

39:14

have the grandparent relationship

39:17

that you have with Patricia's children.

39:20

If I could just say that his way of

39:22

coping all these years. It's kind of like,

39:24

sometimes I feel like I'm judgmental because

39:27

how could you do that? And then I spat

39:29

myself and I say, like you said, this is

39:31

his pain. This coping style

39:33

has worked for him all

39:36

of these years, because

39:38

what the coping style is of complementalizing,

39:42

it is not like repression.

39:44

Repressions means you put it out of mind, you don't

39:46

think about it. When you compatmentalize,

39:49

you think about it, you don't feel

39:51

it. What you compatmentalize is

39:54

the emotional aspect. So

39:56

the ideas can be there, the thoughts can be there, but you

39:58

find a way to put the feelings side so

40:00

that the hurt is not there all the

40:02

time. And it's not that that's comfortable, because

40:04

he said, you know he's comfortable. He's not comfortable,

40:07

but it's easier. It's just a little

40:09

less painful. And it's such a great distinction.

40:12

Yes, the compartmentalizing the feelings,

40:14

because it's too uncomfortable

40:16

to feel. And for

40:19

twenty five years he's led an amazing

40:21

life, I mean, in his professional life,

40:23

in our life, in our doing amazing things

40:25

together. So it's not like he curled

40:28

up in bed and said I'm done. His coping skills

40:31

have tremendously enabled him

40:33

to be resilient and carry on, and

40:36

now we're here. This is one of the reasons I went

40:39

into the field that I went into family

40:41

life. I'm a trial litigator

40:44

in dealing with child abuse,

40:46

primarily domestic violence and custody.

40:49

That's what I do. It's one of the things.

40:51

It's been so rewarding. I can't even begin to

40:53

describe how rewarding that's been. And

40:56

there must be such cognitive dissonance when

40:58

you can do that for other families, but

41:00

you weren't able to manage that with

41:03

your own. And so we're

41:06

glad to hear that you're open

41:08

to some possibilities and maybe trying

41:10

something different instead of what hasn't worked before.

41:13

And so I think Guy

41:16

and I have some advice for you. Great. It's

41:24

very clear that you've been

41:26

thinking about Julia every

41:28

single day of your life in

41:30

some way, and you've

41:33

tried to contact her you've made various

41:35

efforts, and even

41:38

so, we're not sure that Julia

41:40

knows this, and

41:43

that might be very confusing for you because

41:46

you feel like you've tried so hard and she was the one

41:48

who pushed you away.

41:50

But I have a feeling that she sees it

41:52

differently. So

41:54

in order to make sure

41:58

that she knows, we

42:01

want you to

42:03

create a very strategic campaign.

42:06

And the campaign isn't to

42:09

get her to reconnect with you, although we hope

42:11

that that might happen at some

42:13

point, but the campaign

42:15

is to make sure

42:18

that she knows how

42:20

much she matters to you, because

42:25

we think that will do a lot no

42:28

matter what she does. One

42:30

of the things that Julia might have been thinking

42:32

was that in your

42:35

work every day you

42:37

are fighting for other people's kids,

42:40

but that maybe you didn't fight enough for her.

42:43

And again, this is her perspective, This isn't

42:45

necessarily how you think

42:47

about it, but it's going to be

42:49

really important that she feels like

42:52

you understand why

42:54

she is so hurt.

42:58

And what's important for you is

43:00

to feel like you've done everything

43:02

you can, like you are now

43:05

going to be as proactive as

43:08

you can possibly be, and that really

43:10

means a full court price. It really

43:12

means a campaign because

43:15

one letter, one voicemail or

43:17

two is not going to give her the

43:19

impression that you care as much as

43:21

you do, and it's not going to give you

43:24

the impression that you've tried as hard as

43:26

you need to. And that campaign

43:28

is contacting her by voicemail or

43:30

by email or by letter, but

43:33

one of those every single day in

43:35

which you say to her, I screwed up

43:38

because I think about you every

43:40

day, but you don't know that. I know you

43:42

don't because I didn't make

43:44

that clear enough to you

43:47

over these years. And so I'm

43:49

going to be contacting you every day

43:52

with the hopes that we can speak

43:55

eventually, and if not, with

43:57

a knowledge, at least that you know

44:00

that I truly care, because

44:04

that's what as your father, is

44:06

really important, that you know that

44:09

it's every day that I think about

44:11

you. And we'd like

44:14

you to start that campaign as soon as possible,

44:16

and would like you to keep a little bit of a journal on

44:19

what it feels like to be so proactive,

44:21

what it feels like to fight,

44:23

and would like to hear how you're feeling after two weeks

44:26

of this campaign, and

44:28

would like to hear from you, Patricia, your

44:30

perspective on how

44:33

Lenny is doing in

44:35

this campaign? What is fighting

44:38

doing for him? Is he is he putting

44:40

a spring in his step? Is

44:42

he more proactive in other areas

44:45

of his life? Would like both perspectives,

44:47

yours Lenny and yours Patricia about

44:50

him? How would this be perceived

44:53

by her as harassment? So

44:55

here's the thing. It

44:58

seems like you guys have a

45:00

lot of reasons

45:02

not to be proactive. And it's

45:05

not that there isn't some real

45:07

validity to some of the concerns.

45:10

But the fact is that from Julia's perspective,

45:13

it's been decades

45:16

and her father tried

45:19

to send some letters. Maybe

45:21

she received them, maybe she didn't. We don't

45:23

know. If you have any pieces of information

45:25

from Julia, it's this in my

45:27

teenage years, you didn't fight for me, and I don't

45:29

want you at my wedding. That is the one

45:32

piece of information you have. She

45:34

feels you didn't fight for her, and

45:37

I have a feeling. It's very

45:39

hard for one's child when

45:41

the parent is not saying

45:45

I am out there fighting for you every single

45:47

day, to know how much they

45:49

care, to know how much she matters to

45:51

you, You're

45:53

not showing up on her doorstep, you're not

45:56

trying to waylay her on the street.

45:58

You are simply sending

46:01

her an email, a voicemail,

46:04

a letter in the mail. And so we'd

46:06

like you to do this for two weeks

46:08

straight without skipping a day, so

46:11

that Julia sees what it's like to

46:13

have her father fight for her. Now,

46:16

we don't expect anything to happen in these two

46:18

weeks. We would like you to

46:20

report back in two weeks to

46:22

see what it feels like to you to actually

46:24

fight in a concerted way. To start

46:27

this campaign to try to get reelected

46:29

as her father. You are running for the office

46:31

of father and you

46:33

need to get reelected. You've never

46:36

done that kind of campaign with her. But

46:38

here's a thing plenty. For this to truly

46:41

have an impact, it has to be a

46:43

campaign, and we want you to

46:45

do it for a full year. And

46:47

I know that sounds like a lot, but

46:49

it's been many years where

46:52

Julia doesn't know that you've been thinking about

46:54

her every day, and we want to give

46:56

her enough time to see you be proactive,

46:59

to see you fight a consistent way,

47:01

and we think a year is that amount

47:03

of time. And

47:05

then at the year mark, you

47:07

can let her know, Hey,

47:10

I'm so sad that you

47:14

weren't interested in

47:17

having a conversation with me. I

47:19

wanted to let you know how much you matter,

47:22

and I feel like I've done that and I will still

47:24

think about you every day for

47:27

the rest of my life, and

47:29

I want you to know that I am here for you, and

47:33

then maybe you'll have a sense

47:35

of peace at the end of that year. Were

47:38

no matter what happens, whether she gets

47:40

back in contact with you or she doesn't, that

47:42

you did the thing that she said you hadn't,

47:45

which was to fight for her. And you fought

47:47

a good battle, and you might win

47:49

and you might not, but

47:51

you showed up. I want to speak not

47:54

to the part of you that is

47:56

full of fear, but I want to speak

47:58

to the part of you that's full of love and

48:01

longing. How does it sound

48:03

to that part of you? It

48:06

sounds very good. I'm in That's

48:09

what I'll say, you

48:12

know, Lenny. I want you to think of this when

48:14

you're doing it as this

48:17

is me fighting for her,

48:20

because that's a very empowering thought. This

48:23

is not me begging her.

48:25

This is me letting her know that

48:28

I can and that

48:31

is an impowering thought, and that's the thought that should sustain

48:33

you through this even if you don't

48:35

get responses. You

48:38

made a good point before

48:40

that really hit home when you said

48:42

that how hard I fight for other

48:44

children, but I haven't done it for

48:46

her. And maybe

48:49

perhaps she's aware of that, and that is

48:52

a reality to her, and

48:54

she needs to know that

48:56

she matters more

48:59

than those other kids. And

49:02

I don't think that's been communicated, and that's

49:04

what we hope we'll get

49:06

communicated to her no matter what she does with it

49:09

through this campaign. I

49:12

said that, thank

49:15

you, all right, Well,

49:17

we look forward to hearing how it goes,

49:19

and we'll speak to you in a couple of weeks.

49:22

Thank you, okay, great, very

49:25

special. Thank you very much for talking

49:27

with us. It's really been a pleasure, and we really

49:29

wish you the best and we wish you good luck. Thank

49:32

you, Thank you very enlightening. I

49:43

think Lenny has an opportunity here

49:45

to really make up for a lot

49:48

of years in which she

49:50

was way too passive and way

49:52

too on the sidelines. And I think in part

49:55

it's because when you are a lawyer

49:58

in family court, you are so aware

50:00

of how bad things can go. You really do

50:02

want to stay away from it, but sometimes

50:04

you stay too far away from it, and I think he did.

50:07

I definitely think that his work informed

50:10

some of his decisions, but I think it went much deeper

50:12

than that. I think it

50:15

was so painful for him, and sometimes

50:17

when something is so painful, we

50:21

don't want to feel. Every

50:23

time he would kind of stick his neck out a little bit

50:26

and he would get that rejection.

50:29

It was just too much to bear. And

50:32

from Julia's perspective, I imagine she thought,

50:34

well, why isn't my dad fighting for me. That's

50:36

the one piece of information we got from her,

50:39

and unfortunately, probably her mom

50:41

told her all kinds of reasons why her dad wasn't

50:43

fighting for her, and then when she doesn't

50:46

hear from him, it just validates

50:48

what her mom has been saying. And

50:50

when she said that to him, you didn't fight for

50:52

me as a teenager, I

50:55

think what she needed to hear was tell

50:57

me more about that, because I

51:00

have a different impression of that. I want to hear

51:02

what your experience was. And

51:04

I think that he's opening

51:06

the door now to say I

51:08

really think about you. I care.

51:11

I screwed up. I didn't communicate

51:13

that to you, and I want

51:15

to hear about you and your life and

51:18

your experience. And I

51:20

agree with you that I think it goes deeper than the

51:22

professional stuff. And that's why I'm really

51:24

curious to hear how

51:26

two weeks of fighting will you

51:28

impact him? But I heard a lot of was, well,

51:31

we tried everything, but I

51:33

don't think they tried everything. So I want

51:35

to see what it's like when they have a task, a specific

51:38

concrete task of here's

51:40

what it looks like to try everything,

51:43

and are they still going to find that

51:45

they're not able to do it? Hopefully, between

51:48

the two of them, they'll be able to make

51:50

some progress. You're

51:57

listening to dear therapists from my Heart Radio.

52:00

We'll be back after a quick break. So,

52:11

guy, we heard from Patricia and Lenny and

52:14

we gave them something really

52:16

hard to do. So let's

52:19

hear what happened. Hi, it's

52:22

Patricia and Lenny, and here

52:24

is the update of the homework

52:27

assignment you gave to us. So

52:29

Lenny, you go first. Wow,

52:33

it was not easy. In

52:36

fact, the first couple of days were still very

52:39

stressful. However,

52:41

I did reach out

52:44

to enjoya every day

52:46

and I reached out to her

52:48

in several different ways. I was able

52:50

to get a phone number and I would

52:53

leave some voicemails. I

52:56

then left some text messages and

53:00

I sent letters. So

53:03

the first couple of days were still very stressful,

53:06

but I made sure to make a phone

53:08

call and leave a voice message the

53:11

second day because

53:14

I felt that that was the hardest thing to do

53:16

and I needed to deal with Dad

53:18

head on. And I

53:21

would say that it did become easier after

53:24

that, although even as recently

53:26

as yesterday I called and it was still

53:28

I found it stressful beforehand. Yesterday

53:31

was Joey's birthday, so I

53:35

did leave her a message. I sank to her happy

53:37

birthday, and all

53:40

at all, it

53:43

gave me a good feeling to do this.

53:46

I felt

53:48

that it was important. I

53:50

felt that it even chastperred

53:53

over to my daily life.

53:55

I felt that I was a little more proactive

53:58

in initiating different things,

54:00

and I intend to continue to do

54:03

this for the ensuing

54:05

year. As you had suggested,

54:08

I may modify how I do it, but

54:10

I wanted to be meaningful and regular

54:13

and not to become wrote and just

54:16

annoying to her. So

54:18

thank you very much. Okay,

54:20

So My part was

54:23

to observe how

54:25

he was these two weeks, and

54:28

I have to say that all

54:30

in all, surprisingly so, he

54:32

was pretty calm. He likes

54:35

to use the word agitated when he gets

54:37

anxious or upset, so I would say

54:39

that his agitation level was

54:41

pretty low other than

54:43

right before a couple of the phone calls, but

54:46

other than that, he

54:49

was basically in a good mood. I feel

54:51

that he felt a bit more empowered,

54:54

and it did carry over

54:57

certain specifics into

55:00

more proactivity, doing

55:02

things without being reminded so

55:04

much, taking care of certain things

55:06

again on his own, and

55:10

I think it was a positive experience and

55:13

I do hope that he will

55:15

continue it into the year. As

55:18

you said, to be reelected

55:20

as her father. Thanks,

55:24

this was a great opportunity

55:26

and a great conversation. We've had

55:29

very enlightening and

55:31

a very interesting homework assignment.

55:34

Thanks again. So

55:40

what I loved about what happened was

55:43

that he went from a place of feeling

55:45

helpless and like

55:47

there was nothing he could do about this situation

55:50

to becoming proactive. And

55:52

even though he hasn't gotten a result yet

55:54

and we were not expecting that he would

55:57

get a result at this point, it

55:59

changed his way of

56:02

feeling about himself and also who

56:04

he is in the world, that it seemed

56:06

to have translated more generally for him, according

56:09

to both him and Patricia.

56:12

That's the interesting thing about

56:14

both helplessness and on the other

56:16

side, proactivity. They're

56:18

a bit contagious, both of them are. So when

56:21

you feel really helpless in one domain, it

56:23

often spreads into other domains. But

56:25

then when you want to kick out of that, if

56:28

you can get really proactive in one specific

56:30

area, it will spill over into

56:33

other areas as well. And it's great to

56:35

remember that that you don't have to address

56:37

the issue in the domain it's at. You can

56:39

literally sometimes do it in a parallel

56:42

place and it will still carry over. Yeah,

56:44

And I think the piece it's important here is that he

56:46

was doing something, not just proactively,

56:49

but differently, that he was taking responsibility

56:52

instead of defending himself and trying to say,

56:54

well, I don't understand I was there

56:56

for you. I tried to be there for you. You're the one

56:58

who didn't want to see me new approaches.

57:01

I realize that in some ways

57:03

I failed you, and you're very hurt, and

57:05

I want to hear more about that. And I am interested

57:07

in your experience. And now I don't

57:10

know how much she's able to communicate that in the kinds

57:12

of messages he's leaving, but I hope

57:14

that that is the gist of

57:16

his messages, so that she knows

57:18

that he's approaching her from that perspective.

57:22

And the cherry on the cake for me was

57:24

when he said, I'm going to try and vary

57:26

it up so he doesn't get wrote, so I've put

57:29

thought into it so it's meaningful each

57:31

time. To me, that's the best thing he said,

57:33

because it means that his heart is really in

57:35

it, and hopefully that will come across

57:38

to Julia. Hey,

57:43

fellow travelers, if you've used

57:46

any of our advice from the podcast in your

57:48

own life, send us a quick voice memo

57:50

to Laurie and Guy at Ihartmedia

57:52

dot com and tell us about it. We may include

57:55

it in a future show that

57:57

brings us to the end of our show for this week.

58:00

Thank you so much for listening. If

58:02

you're enjoying the show, please take a moment

58:04

to rate and review it. You can

58:06

follow us both online. I'm at

58:08

Lori Gottlieb dot com and you can follow

58:11

me on Twitter at Lorie Gottlieb I or

58:13

on Instagram at Lori Gottlieb,

58:15

Underscore author, and I'm at

58:17

Guywinch dot com. I'm on Twitter

58:20

and on Instagram at Guywinch.

58:22

If you have a dilemma you'd like to discuss

58:24

with us, big or small, email us

58:27

at Lorian guy at iHeartMedia

58:29

dot com. Our executive producers

58:31

Christopher Hasiotis, were produced

58:33

and edited by Mike Johns. Special

58:36

thanks to Samuel Benefield and to our

58:38

podcast Fairy Godmother Katie

58:40

Curuk. So this episode marks

58:42

the middle of our first season, and we're going to be taking

58:45

a brief break, but don't go away

58:47

because when we come back, a woman struggles

58:49

with resentment toward her sister, who

58:51

always seems like the perfect sibling

58:54

to their parents. Sometimes I

58:56

think, oh, I should be better at this.

58:58

I should ask them more question because

59:00

that's what Jill does when she's

59:03

there. She writes questions for the night

59:05

and has people discuss memories

59:07

and labels, the antiques and oh

59:10

my goodness, she is Mary Puppy's Yeah,

59:12

And it's like, I can't compete with that. I

59:14

don't know how to do that. Dear

59:17

Therapist is a production of iHeartRadio