0:03

Hey, fellow travelers. I'm Laurie

0:06

Gottlieb. I'm the author of Maybe You Should

0:08

Talk to Someone, and I write the Dear Therapists

0:10

advice column for The Atlantic.

0:12

And I'm Guy Wench. I'm the author of

0:14

Emotional First Aid, and I write

0:16

the Dear Guy advice column for TED. And

0:19

this is Dear Therapists.

0:21

Each week we invite you into a session

0:24

so you can learn more about yourself by hearing

0:26

how we help other people come to understand

0:28

themselves better and make changes in their lives.

0:31

So sit back and welcome to today's

0:33

session.

0:35

This week, we'll be talking with a woman who

0:37

has a history of addictions

0:40

that she is now in recovery

0:42

for, but she has recently developed

0:45

a new addiction, and that is

0:47

to shopping.

0:48

I didn't realize that that's

0:51

what was happening until I was

0:53

six thousand dollars in debt. I think

0:55

that's what makes me feel vulnerable, is to say

0:57

this allowed.

0:58

First A quick note, therapist is for

1:00

informational purposes only, does not constitute

1:03

medical or psychological advice, and it's

1:05

not a substitute for professional healthcare advice,

1:07

diagnosis, or treatment. Always seek the

1:09

advice of your physician, mental health professional,

1:12

or other qualified health provider with any questions

1:14

you may have regarding a medical or

1:17

psychological condition. By submitting

1:19

a letter, you are agreeing to let iHeartMedia

1:21

use it in part or in full, and we may edit

1:23

it for length and clarity and the sessions

1:25

you'll hear. All names have been changed for the privacy

1:27

of our fellow travelers.

1:31

So hey Guy, Hi Laurie.

1:33

So it's your week to go through the mailbooks. What

1:35

have you found for us today?

1:36

Well, it was an interesting week in the mailbox because

1:38

we got so many great letters, and

1:41

I actually chose one that's very short, but

1:43

on a topic that I think is really important.

1:45

And it goes like this, Dear

1:47

therapists, I am a licensed

1:50

alcohol and drug counselor and recovery

1:52

for eight years. I find myself

1:54

spending a lot of money on things I do not need.

1:57

It is starting to get out of control and I've

1:59

put myself in unnecessary debt. What

2:01

can I do? I believe it is related

2:04

to stress. I'd really appreciate your

2:06

help. Hillary.

2:07

You know this is something that is much

2:10

more common than people realize.

2:12

Up to five percent of people are

2:14

diagnosed with a compulsive buying

2:17

disorder, and so overshopping

2:19

is something a lot of people do, not necessarily to the point

2:21

of it being a disorder, but it's something that can be very

2:23

distressing to their bank account, to their relationships,

2:26

and to their sense of self.

2:28

And in this case, she has a history of addiction,

2:30

so she knows what it's like to feel out of control.

2:32

And I think that's what she's writing to us about,

2:35

is this feeling of I don't

2:37

feel like I have control over

2:39

this. And I think the other thing about

2:41

addiction is that usually, as

2:43

she said, I think I'm under a lot of stress,

2:46

there's usually another problem and then the

2:48

addiction is what people use to cope

2:50

with the problem. And so we want to find out

2:52

more about what is going on in her life

2:54

that is causing her to either

2:56

try to deflect, distract, numb

2:59

out, fill a hole. So let's

3:01

go talk to her and learn more.

3:04

You're listening to Deo Therapists from iHeartRadio.

3:07

We'll be back after a quick break.

3:15

I'm Lori Gottlieb and.

3:17

I'm Guy Winch and this is Deo Therapists.

3:20

So Hi Hillary, Hello, welcome

3:23

to the show.

3:24

Thank you.

3:26

We read your letter. We'd love to hear a little bit more

3:28

about what's going on with the shopping

3:30

and the history of that. Can you tell us a little

3:32

bit about when this started.

3:34

I'm not sure when it all started,

3:36

but I know that recently, in the last

3:39

couple of years, it's escalated

3:42

and it's become a real

3:45

problem in my life, which

3:47

is ironic because I am an alcohol

3:49

and drug counselor and I've been in sobriety

3:51

for nine years, so I

3:54

understand when

3:56

something interferes in your life,

4:00

probably an addiction. In

4:02

the last couple of years, I've

4:04

been working on my master's

4:06

degree in counseling, and

4:10

for the first time in my life, I experienced

4:13

physical symptoms of anxiety,

4:17

and to alleviate those physical

4:19

symptoms, it felt

4:21

really good to fill up my cart

4:23

and buy something. And I

4:26

didn't realize that that's

4:28

what was happening until I was

4:30

six thousand dollars in debt and

4:33

I had to actually cancel

4:35

that credit card and get a personal

4:37

loan through my credit union, and I'm

4:39

now paying that off but

4:42

still spending.

4:43

Can you tell us a little bit about what

4:45

that looks like. How did it start,

4:47

what did you start buying, and how did it escalate

4:49

to six thousand dollars.

4:51

I think it started in

4:54

childhood. I can recall my

4:57

mother and my siblings

4:59

when I I was like five or six, and we would

5:01

go out into the country and

5:04

find abandoned homes or

5:06

farmhouses, and we would take things

5:09

from the farmhouse, and

5:12

I think it stuck in my head that this

5:14

was okay, that as

5:17

a child, you can just take what you want.

5:20

Now that turned

5:22

into for me, it turned into active

5:24

addiction to alcohol

5:26

and drugs for many, many years, and

5:29

during that time, I would

5:32

allow myself to steal things.

5:34

At what age did the drug and alcohol you start?

5:37

I actually started about the age of ten. I

5:41

was experiencing an extreme amount

5:43

of shame from childhood,

5:46

and when I drank the alcohol at age

5:48

ten, it was like instant relief.

5:52

What was the shame about that you are feeling at

5:54

age ten so strongly.

5:56

I think what it came from was no

5:58

connection. I felt disconnected

6:01

from the world, a single

6:03

parent home, being bullied

6:06

in school. And when

6:08

I was able to in just that alcohol,

6:11

it was like nirvana.

6:14

It was the best thing I had ever experienced.

6:17

Where did you get the alcohol and what was

6:19

the context in which you had your first drink.

6:22

I was in the basement

6:25

of the house and somehow

6:28

my older brother had it and he

6:30

gave it to me, and it was a half

6:32

frozen bottle of Boons Farm wine. What

6:34

I can remember is that

6:37

it took me away from feeling

6:40

internal pain, so

6:43

I no longer felt like

6:46

I didn't belong. It was like the

6:48

sensation of everything's

6:51

going to be great.

6:53

So how quickly did it get

6:55

into a habit?

6:57

Well, it continued for

6:59

many, many years. I used whatever and whenever

7:01

I could throughout my school years.

7:04

By my twenties, I had developed

7:07

an addiction to cocaine.

7:09

Alcohol is expensive. Where were you getting

7:11

it? Were you taking it from the home? Did your

7:13

mom not realize it was gone?

7:15

With friends? We would take

7:18

alcohol out of the parents'

7:20

bottles and fill it with water.

7:23

At that time, you could purchase alcohol

7:26

at age eighteen, so we'd get older kids to

7:28

buy it for us. Then

7:30

it was marijuana was

7:33

very prevalent, and it was everywhere.

7:35

Did anybody notice that this was going

7:37

on in your family? Your mother or

7:39

your brother, And did any of your

7:42

teachers notice in terms of that

7:44

it affected your functioning in school?

7:47

Well? I certainly wasn't alone. There were

7:49

hundreds of kids like me that would

7:52

use whenever they could. Oh, sure, I

7:54

think they did. I think for

7:57

my mom, she was

8:00

more happy if we would drink

8:03

or use in the house rather

8:05

than be out in the street. So

8:08

nothing was done.

8:10

When you say that your mom would

8:12

rather have you use in the house

8:15

because she thought it was safer than having you use on

8:17

the street. Was there any conversation about

8:19

the fact that maybe you shouldn't be using.

8:23

No, was your mom

8:25

also drinking or using drugs.

8:28

She was a hard

8:30

working single parent

8:34

that raised

8:36

three kids. My brother didn't

8:38

use. My sister was

8:41

six years older than I was, so there wasn't

8:43

much connection there. And it wasn't

8:45

like we did this every single day

8:48

as kids. It was whatever

8:50

we could get our hands on, so that might be a

8:52

month. The other thing that happened

8:55

to us, I had a cousin who

8:58

had access to pills, so

9:01

he provided some kind of downers,

9:04

and that happened shortly after that

9:06

first drink of alcohol. I had forgotten

9:09

about that, and so I was taking

9:11

pills and alcohol before anything

9:13

else.

9:14

Was your mom aware of the pills and what

9:16

was happening with your cousin.

9:18

I don't think she was so there was alcohol

9:20

in the house, So I don't know

9:23

how much she was

9:26

drinking. I know that she was gone

9:28

a lot, but she was trying

9:30

to raise three kids on her own, and

9:33

during that time, being a divorce

9:36

had a stigma attached. She was

9:38

shunned because she

9:40

was the divorcee in town.

9:43

And then you were shunned as the

9:45

child of a divorcee.

9:47

Yeah.

9:48

Yeah, So I

9:51

found a way to get

9:54

through and make things happen, for

9:57

instance, finding the kids that

9:59

did what I did and

10:02

hanging around with them. I didn't

10:04

understand, of course, at that time that

10:06

it was a way of escape.

10:09

I just as a child,

10:11

I just knew that getting high

10:13

was cool.

10:15

It was cool because you had a group of

10:18

friends, or it was cool because it took away

10:20

the pain or both.

10:21

Oh, it's both, for sure. Having

10:24

some connection with a group was

10:28

a really crucial part. And at

10:30

the time I think I was just

10:32

really dying to belong to a group

10:35

of people, and I could find it

10:38

in this group of people.

10:39

As we're talking about disconnection,

10:41

I wonder, where was your dad. You haven't mentioned

10:44

him yet.

10:45

Oh, he wasn't part of the picture.

10:47

How old were you when your parents got divorced, and

10:49

what were the circumstances of the divorce.

10:52

I was like one years old.

10:55

My father didn't want

10:57

anything to do with the kids, really

10:59

with us, so he

11:02

left the home and got

11:05

his own house in the city.

11:08

As far as I can remember as

11:10

a child, he came every

11:12

other Sunday, and for some

11:14

period of time, I thought that's what

11:17

everybody's father did. Until

11:20

I got to school.

11:21

Would he notice sea that you were drunk

11:24

or high or did you just not do

11:26

it when there was a visit from him?

11:27

Correct And if I was, I don't

11:30

know that he'd care.

11:31

Did you ever develop a relationship with him

11:34

as you got older?

11:35

I tried At one point, I

11:38

tried to sit down as an adult. I

11:40

asked him his life story,

11:43

and that was a period of sobriety for

11:45

me, and he basically

11:48

told me his story, but skipped over

11:51

my mother and the birth of us, and

11:55

so I chose to sever ties

11:58

with him at that point.

12:01

She was saying, there was a period of sobriety in

12:03

that time. What led to that?

12:06

In my senior

12:08

year of high school and

12:11

a little bit before that, I think I was

12:13

seeking something, and I think

12:15

part of what I was seeking was a father

12:17

figure. I felt unfulfilled

12:21

and I ended up smoking

12:23

a lot of marijuana. But I also

12:26

involved myself in church groups,

12:29

so I was living a double life.

12:32

In this church group, I participated

12:35

and I would sing the songs and I

12:37

would become part of this

12:39

religious ideology.

12:42

And then the other part of me would

12:44

you know, By that time, I was taking acid,

12:47

eating mushrooms which are psychedelics,

12:50

and doing this completely opposite

12:53

thing. And I felt very alone

12:55

because I felt like I was the only one living this double

12:57

life. But in that while

12:59

I was going to church, I discovered a cultural

13:02

exchange program and

13:04

I signed up. Most of that time was

13:06

sober, but it was an

13:09

adventure, so I

13:11

was constantly stimulated with new information

13:14

and it was really quite

13:16

an experience. And when I returned

13:19

home once when I chose,

13:22

in my enlightened state of having

13:24

been living in Europe, to

13:27

sit down with him and have this adult

13:29

conversation.

13:30

When you spoke to your dad,

13:33

did you ever say why did

13:35

you leave or why weren't you involved in our

13:37

childhood? I hear that you asked for his life

13:40

story, but did you ever ask him directly

13:42

about the relationship with you?

13:47

I don't think I did. Now that you say

13:49

it that way, he's deceased, and

13:53

you know, the story actually gets

13:55

even more bizarre because my

13:57

first attempt at sobriety, my brother

13:59

told me that he wasn't really my father, that

14:03

my stepfather was my

14:05

father. I was thirty some years old. It

14:07

was the first I ever had ever heard that, So

14:10

that set me into a little bit of a tailspin. And

14:12

when I tried to verify this

14:14

information with my mother, she said

14:17

she didn't know.

14:18

We haven't heard about the stepfather. So when did he come

14:20

into the picture.

14:21

He came into the picture around

14:23

the age of twelve

14:26

or thirteen. He wasn't

14:28

a nice person. He ended

14:31

up kicking my older sister out of the

14:33

house for what reason. I

14:35

think they just didn't get along. She had

14:38

a very strong personality.

14:42

I think she felt like my

14:44

mother chose him over her, so

14:47

she became angry and chose

14:49

to leave at age sixteen.

14:51

Your stepdad was in your life for

14:53

how long?

14:54

Probably five years. It's

14:57

a little bit blurry, but if an

15:00

indeed he was the father, would

15:02

have happened out of wedlock, you

15:04

know, way before.

15:06

And when your mom says she doesn't know, it's

15:08

because she truly doesn't know. It's possible that

15:10

she had been sleeping with him before

15:12

you were born, but she just truly doesn't know.

15:14

Correct, It's okay now, I mean

15:17

they're both dead. I struggled with it

15:19

for a little while, but it really doesn't matter.

15:22

Now.

15:22

When you say it doesn't matter,

15:25

can you say more about that?

15:28

Sure?

15:29

I have.

15:31

Worked through the emotions

15:34

that are normally

15:36

attached to who

15:39

a father might be. I've also

15:41

worked through like, if

15:43

I had any health issues, you know who

15:46

that would be. I've worked through things

15:48

like I can't do a DNA test

15:51

to find out for sure, and

15:54

through a twelve step program. I've

15:56

worked through resentment. I've

15:59

worked through anger, and there's

16:01

some sadness, but I don't live in that. So

16:05

it's just the knowledge that

16:08

one of these two people were

16:10

my biological father, and I

16:13

didn't care for much of either of them. So what

16:16

difference does it make? I make

16:18

my own family tell

16:20

us about that.

16:22

Well.

16:23

I have some people close to me that

16:25

I consider to be family,

16:27

and most of that has come from sobriety,

16:31

being a part of a group, being

16:33

involved with people who have suffered

16:36

as I have, who put themselves

16:38

through horrible addictions and

16:41

come out the other side. So that's what

16:43

I consider family.

16:44

I'm sitting here thinking about your

16:47

feeling that it doesn't really matter who your father

16:49

was. And one

16:52

of the things that we see a lot with addiction is

16:54

that there are these secrets in the family.

16:57

There's this toxicity around a

16:59

sea grip floating in the air that the child

17:02

somehow perceives but doesn't know what it

17:04

is. Something just feels not right

17:07

and it isn't

17:09

even maybe in their awareness, but

17:11

there's also an inherent internal

17:14

sense of disconnection when you

17:16

feel like there's something

17:18

about this family that's off, there's

17:20

something in the air here. And

17:23

so as an adult, I understand that you've

17:25

worked through a lot of maybe resentment,

17:27

betrayal, anxiety,

17:29

anger, sadness, whatever you might have been

17:31

feeling around it. But I just want to

17:33

put out there that maybe there's more to

17:36

do there.

17:37

There could be. I mean, I have to admit

17:39

there could be.

17:40

Because your mother's still alive, right,

17:44

Yeah, have you ever

17:46

thought about that at all?

17:48

She's ninety two. She

17:52

is actually an active alcoholic.

17:55

She's very frail, She's like ninety pounds.

17:57

She hardly eats. So

18:00

when I say that, getting to the

18:02

bottom of knowing who

18:05

my father actually is. It

18:07

is not worth knowing

18:10

that in comparison

18:13

to any pain that I would cause her

18:16

by trying to pry it out

18:18

of her or something. Does that make sense?

18:20

Yeah? So, how bad did things

18:23

get before you became sober?

18:26

What was that turning point for you? At the bottom?

18:29

I began using

18:32

ivy needles and I did it for fifteen

18:34

years and no

18:37

cocaine. Luckily

18:39

I never had a taste for opiates.

18:44

I probably would be dead. I

18:47

tried to get sober several

18:50

times where I would manage to get six

18:52

months or a year. And the last time that I

18:54

used it was twenty twelve

18:58

and it was with ivy

19:01

needles and cocaine

19:03

and I was at a person's home in

19:05

the city. It got to the point

19:07

where I was bankrupt

19:10

spiritually, mentally, physically,

19:13

financially. I tended to

19:15

go back to school at that time, though it didn't

19:17

work out because I

19:19

did have a cocurring disorder. I had depression

19:22

anxiety, but I also had a

19:24

significant substance use disorder.

19:28

And it is secretive

19:31

people who are in active use do

19:33

have a tendency to minimize

19:37

the severity of their addictions, and

19:40

I was really good at that, so

19:43

I knew how to cover my tracks, both literally

19:46

and figuratively. Because

19:49

using needles, you know, I had collapsed

19:52

veins. I had started

19:54

shooting and using the needles

19:56

in different places that wouldn't

19:59

be visible. Well, anything to

20:01

minimize the severity of the

20:03

addiction.

20:05

You were talking about how secretive this was.

20:07

Were you doing this alone? And how are

20:10

you getting the drugs.

20:12

I was stealing?

20:14

And what were you stealing.

20:17

I would go into different stores,

20:20

department stores, grocery stores,

20:23

take things that I knew I

20:25

could either pawn or

20:28

sell directly to people, or

20:30

trade so that

20:33

I could get the drugs that I

20:35

needed. My mental health had

20:37

deteriorated. Of course, when

20:39

you're in active use, the best antidepressants

20:42

are not going to work. I got

20:44

to a point where I was trading sex

20:47

for drugs. I would

20:50

beg for alcohol.

20:52

There was a particular bar that I went to all

20:54

the time and scrape up

20:57

enough to get a drink and then try and find

20:59

somebody with drugs.

21:01

There was something different about this last time around

21:04

where you finally did get sober.

21:06

But I'm curious about what was different about

21:09

this rock button because usually there's several

21:11

rock buttons that you have to get to before

21:14

one of them actually is.

21:17

I said I would never use needles, and

21:19

then I did. I would never sell

21:21

myself on the street in

21:23

order to get drugs, and then I did, I

21:26

would never steal from

21:29

a friend, and then I did.

21:32

That's the power of

21:34

the obsession and compulsion of addiction

21:37

that you continue to do things

21:39

that are completely against

21:42

what you think your morals are. I

21:44

had dabbled in recovery, and

21:47

so I had a taste of what it was like

21:50

to live without substances,

21:53

and I watched other people

21:55

living their life and laughing and

21:57

be happy, and knowing

22:00

that if I could somehow get over

22:02

this homp, I could

22:05

have that.

22:06

I understand that the periods of sobriety

22:08

were very short, right, But were

22:11

you able in moments

22:13

to craft an image of what true

22:16

sobriety would look like for you?

22:19

Were you able to imagine? Because you said, oh,

22:21

I saw people laugh and have fun and be happy,

22:23

and I thought I want that. That that was we were able to

22:25

really have a vision of what life could

22:28

be like for you. But how did you see yourself?

22:30

What was that woman you were meant to be?

22:32

I saw her as educated,

22:35

spiritual, connected

22:38

to others, healthy

22:41

both physically and mentally, somebody

22:44

that was able to be

22:46

calm and be

22:48

happy living life on life

22:50

service. So if

22:53

adversity came my way, I was going to be able

22:55

to handle that. If I

22:57

had to step up and

22:59

be accountable for my behavior,

23:02

I was able to do that.

23:05

And if we go through that checklist

23:08

and look at your current life,

23:11

you're educated, obviously you

23:13

care about others. What are the items on that list

23:16

that are not as strong

23:18

as they should be right now?

23:20

I think intimate relationships. I

23:23

see someone that lives

23:26

about one hundred and fifty miles away

23:28

from where I am, and I

23:31

see him occasionally. I don't

23:33

have real strong, intimate

23:36

close friends, and

23:39

that's the area that I would really like

23:41

to improve. I think the rest

23:43

of what I discussed I have taken

23:46

on and developed, including a

23:48

work ethic, over the last

23:50

nine years.

23:52

So given that context, tell us a little bit

23:54

about the shopping how bad that

23:56

gets when it happens.

23:58

In the last couple of years, I've

24:00

recognized I have an imposter

24:02

syndrome. So I've

24:05

developed a counselor position

24:08

for drugs and alcohol. I work with

24:10

clients every day, and I

24:13

started by going to a

24:15

community college and finishing a two year

24:18

degree. Then I chose to

24:20

follow a local college

24:23

in getting a four year degree in addictions

24:26

counseling. I then

24:28

developed this master's

24:30

degree and I'm currently working towards

24:33

co occurring counseling to

24:36

work with both mental health and

24:38

substance use disorder. In

24:41

the process of this, I developed

24:43

anxiety. I've realized

24:46

that I've been struggling for the

24:48

last year and a half in

24:51

getting school work done. Part of this is

24:53

COVID that everything has gone

24:56

to zoom or online,

24:58

so I don't have interaction with professors,

25:01

my cohort. It's all

25:04

via soum. So I

25:06

feel alone a lot, and

25:09

it has transformed into

25:11

a shopping addiction. There's no way

25:13

I'm going to return to using drugs

25:16

or alcohol. However, that

25:18

thinking is still there, so

25:21

instead of writing

25:23

my paper, I would

25:26

find myself going on to

25:28

my favorite shopping site and

25:31

I need to read this difficult

25:34

material and answer

25:36

some discussion questions with my cohort

25:39

from my college, and I realized

25:41

I was trying to find some peace in

25:45

material things. And that's

25:47

when I recently come to

25:49

realize that it stemmed back from the farmhouses,

25:53

you know, fifty years ago, that

25:57

idea of having fun and taking something.

26:00

So along with the impostor syndrome,

26:03

which is basically feeling like

26:05

I don't deserve to be where I'm at and I

26:07

have the education, I have the ability,

26:10

I have really positive

26:13

feedback for the work that I do.

26:15

But how can I be a counselor you're

26:18

just a drug addict?

26:21

Is this a secret right now?

26:23

Are we the only people who knows this about

26:25

your shopping addiction?

26:26

Okay, the shopping part, yes, Okay,

26:29

okay, because all right, because

26:31

when we talk about shame again,

26:34

there's that shame and you were talking about it with your

26:36

earlier addiction around the secrecy

26:39

and the shame and the ways that people

26:42

try to hide this because of the shame.

26:44

Absolutely, the material items

26:47

that I purchase at the time, there's

26:50

a release when I press by.

26:52

What happens when the package arrives? When

26:54

like it? Do you feel horrible or do you feel excited

26:57

when when you see the package at your doorstep?

27:00

It used to be excitement. Now

27:02

it's like another fucking package.

27:05

What's going on?

27:06

Before COVID? Would

27:08

you go to meetings in person and how

27:10

often I.

27:12

Would typically go two to

27:14

three times a week.

27:17

And then it was zoom for a while, I'm assuming

27:19

or still.

27:20

Yeah, And I didn't participate much with that. I

27:23

didn't do any Zoom meetings.

27:26

Because there's a

27:28

rough overlap in time between

27:31

COVID and between when the shopping

27:34

purchasing accelerated.

27:36

And what we know about a lot

27:39

of addictions is that

27:41

this issue of this connection is lurking

27:44

behind them. And you said

27:46

that of the list of all the things I wanted

27:48

to be and fix in my life, that one I haven't

27:50

quite probably fixed is intimacy yet.

27:53

But I think it's connection more broadly,

27:56

to be honest with you, And

27:59

there are things we called soft ties

28:01

and strong ties. Soft ties

28:03

are more casual acquaintances, but

28:06

when there's a lot of them, when there's

28:08

a lot of people that say hello to you when you walk

28:10

into a meeting or when you go to the

28:12

grocery store because they know you there, it can

28:14

add up and make people feel

28:16

more connected. And when you

28:18

don't go to meetings and you stop that all together,

28:22

and you don't have a strong intimate bond

28:24

with one other person you said you'd meet only

28:26

occasionally with this person who's, however,

28:28

many miles away. It can leave

28:30

you feeling very disconnected because a lot

28:33

of those softer ties that

28:35

kept you feeling connected, kept you feeling

28:37

a part of, go

28:39

away, and then you feel very

28:41

much not a part of And

28:44

that's when some of the old behaviors

28:46

started to come back. And I'm wondering if you notice

28:49

that.

28:49

Timing absolutely, and

28:52

especially with explaining it that

28:54

well. I think it accelerated

28:57

over the last year. And also

29:00

my schoolwork has suffered. It's supposed

29:02

to be done with my master's by the end of next

29:04

year or at this time next year. The

29:06

way it's looking, I'll have to either withdraw or

29:10

find another way because I had to take incomplete

29:13

so I developed the anxiety symptoms

29:16

of the physical symptoms within my chest.

29:19

I think that the paradox of getting sober

29:21

is that once you start to realize what

29:23

is possible in your life. First

29:26

of all, there's a lot of grief for all the

29:28

lost years.

29:29

Oh yeah, yes, definitely,

29:32

I have a lot of.

29:33

That, right, And usually

29:35

it starts in childhood because you

29:38

didn't have necessarily

29:40

the kinds of connections and love that you

29:42

wanted in childhood. Even if your mother

29:44

loved you, you felt very alone.

29:47

Yep, And I didn't recognize it

29:49

as that, but that's what it was, right.

29:51

And then the lost years when you're using and you're

29:53

not connected in the world, you're in that world

29:55

of just I need the next fix.

29:58

And so then when you come out of it, when

30:00

you're sober, you start to realize how

30:03

important connection is. And

30:05

there's also a fear of connection. So

30:08

those two things happen at once of

30:10

I really want connection, this is really important,

30:13

and I'm not sure A

30:15

I know how to do it, or B that

30:17

I deserve it.

30:20

Oh, definitely. The main part

30:22

of that is this idea that

30:25

I don't deserve connection,

30:28

or when I make a connection, it was so

30:30

scary to be connected with somebody.

30:33

There's one more thing that I'm thinking about, which is that,

30:36

in terms of the timing, you said that now

30:38

you're doing this program where you're studying addiction

30:41

and its relationship with other

30:43

mood disorders like anxiety

30:46

and depression, and I

30:48

wonder if that's bringing up anxiety in

30:50

you, because sometimes it's very hard

30:53

to be studying something that you

30:56

also have a lot of personal experience

30:58

with.

31:00

Interesting that you should say that because

31:03

I never really made

31:05

the connection of that feeling of anxiety

31:08

and the way I know how to escape is shopping.

31:11

It's also possible that

31:14

part of the imposter syndrome is

31:17

you recognizing even early

31:19

on that this shopping

31:22

it feels a lot like using

31:25

and I'm using it in the same way. Part

31:27

of you might be feeling, oh, and I still have these behaviors

31:30

going on. Now that's in the shopping domain, and

31:32

that might be what part of the imposter

31:35

syndrome it's also about.

31:37

Yeah, I have to look at that. I

31:39

think the imposter syndrome idea

31:42

came in my undergrad work. Each

31:45

graduation I had I physically

31:48

became ill. So when I graduated

31:51

from college with my bachelor's

31:53

degree, I got physically sick.

31:56

Emotionally I was a mess.

31:59

I achieved something that I had

32:01

been striving for or fantasized

32:04

about my whole life, and when I got

32:06

it, I want to throw up. I

32:09

became so sick.

32:11

You know. It's one of the things that happens in long

32:13

term addiction is you really

32:16

can lose the ability to trust yourself

32:19

because you made so many deals with yourself that

32:21

you've broken thousands of them,

32:23

and then when you achieve something, it feels like,

32:25

Okay, now I can trust myself. I've

32:27

actually completed that thing,

32:30

that fantasy that I had have actually attained

32:32

it. But that fear of

32:34

oh, it can be taken away because I can screw

32:37

up again. You know, I'm trying to trust myself, but

32:39

I can slip again. That fear

32:41

of this life will be taken away from me can

32:44

operate for a very very long time

32:46

with addiction. So when you start to achieve

32:49

finally thirty

32:51

five years of fears of oh, I'm going to

32:53

screw this up and mess this up, don't

32:55

go away overnight. And the more you have

32:57

at stake, the greater the fear.

32:59

Is.

33:00

Now you actually have something to lose. And

33:02

before sobriety you really

33:04

didn't have much to lose, and

33:07

now you do, and that can make the anxiety

33:10

grow bigger.

33:11

Yeah, it makes sense because

33:14

in active use, it's like what

33:16

is there to lose? It's just about the next

33:18

score. So now living

33:21

a life of integrity and

33:23

responsibility and work

33:25

ethic and making

33:27

an income, saving money, have

33:29

a four to h one K, I've never had that before.

33:32

And then to admit to a shopping

33:34

addiction.

33:36

I wanted to say one more thing about this idea

33:39

of you getting physically ill when you would

33:41

accomplish something like a graduation. The

33:44

other addiction that people don't talk about is

33:46

that people get addicted to punishing

33:49

themselves. People get addicted

33:53

to not having People

33:55

get addicted to that sense

33:57

of things are not going to work out for me.

34:01

That becomes something that they hold very dear,

34:03

even though they don't want that to happen, And

34:05

so all of a sudden you have to let go of that idea.

34:08

It's a whole self concept of

34:11

going from I'm someone for whom

34:13

nothing will work out to I'm someone

34:15

who can have agency in the world.

34:18

Indeed, there's comfort in the

34:20

familiarity of discomfort.

34:23

There's this saying, especially in the field

34:25

of psychology, that research is mesearch,

34:29

meaning that we usually are

34:32

interested in exploring something that touches us

34:34

very closely personally. So

34:36

somebody who comes from a

34:39

history of substance use will become an addiction counselor.

34:42

But what you're studying now, I think is the most tender

34:44

part of something

34:46

that you're still trying to resolve, which

34:49

is the anxiety, the relational pieces.

34:52

And so I wonder if you're avoiding doing this

34:54

work in a way that you didn't avoid

34:56

doing the other work because

34:59

of where you are in your process

35:02

of working through it.

35:05

You know, there's probably some truth

35:07

to that.

35:08

We were talking about this idea of

35:10

connection and loneliness and

35:12

how those two things go with

35:15

addiction. Very often what

35:17

happens with alcohol and

35:20

substances is that, especially

35:22

when it's thirty five years of that,

35:24

that's what draws the people to one

35:26

another. It's the actual glue

35:29

that determines who

35:31

your people are and how close you are with them

35:33

because you're all doing the same thing substance

35:36

wise. And when that glue

35:38

goes away because you become sober, you

35:41

literally have to rediscover reinvent,

35:45

Well, what's the glue that I use now?

35:47

How do I get close to people now?

35:50

And those skill sets that usually require

35:52

very intentional, active work

35:54

to develop those muscles to

35:57

connect and especially in deeper

35:59

ways with people. Do you have a sense

36:01

of whether you've developed enough of those

36:03

muscles?

36:04

No, I haven't, and I

36:07

have a sense of

36:10

not wanting to address that inability

36:13

to create those relationships,

36:16

to create new glue. The one

36:19

relationship that I have with a guy, like

36:21

I said, and he lives one hundred and fifty miles away.

36:24

We've been seeing each other on and off for

36:27

eleven years, and I

36:29

don't have a lot of interest in

36:32

getting married or or moving

36:35

in with him, even I have no desire

36:37

to do that.

36:38

Is that because of you don't feel that connection with

36:40

him or you don't want that with

36:42

anybody?

36:45

I don't know for sure, because I've asked myself

36:47

that what's been popping in my head

36:49

is you're too old. You're too old, You're too old.

36:52

This keeps coming up. You're too old to get a degree

36:55

or a tool to have a relationship. I think it's

36:57

a bit of an excuse, to be honest with you. I think you're

36:59

using it as an excuse.

37:01

The person that you've been dating. His

37:03

name is Shane. Okay,

37:06

So Shane, how did you meet

37:08

eleven years ago? And is

37:10

he wanting more or how did the two of

37:12

you talk about what you're doing with each other?

37:15

Well, we met online on

37:17

Craigslist and it

37:20

was an attempt for connection

37:23

on my part back then, and

37:25

it turned out that we were very compatible

37:28

and over the years he

37:31

has been supportive. So he has seen me in

37:33

active addiction and has seen

37:35

me in recovery, and I

37:37

recently was making a

37:40

choice to end

37:42

the relationship last year right

37:44

when COVID hit. It was no connection

37:46

to COVID, it just happened to be at the same time.

37:49

Why did you want to end the relationship? And what is

37:51

he wanting in this relationship?

37:53

He's wanting to get married. He

37:55

is a Vietnam veteran. He

37:58

has some PTSD that he's never

38:00

dealt with nor wishes to talk about.

38:03

And he wasn't willing to like

38:05

go to alan On or

38:08

some other kind of help for

38:10

people who are families of addicted

38:12

people. And so I've tried.

38:15

I tried to have

38:18

him join me at meetings, go

38:20

to his own meetings, and he was unwilling

38:22

to do this. And at that time, he

38:24

lived about twenty miles away. And

38:27

he then decided to

38:29

get a house in the northern part of

38:31

the state and moved up there. And

38:35

it's like, fine, fuck

38:37

you.

38:38

So you felt hurt that he didn't include

38:41

you in that decision.

38:42

Well, I think I did. The fact

38:44

that he moved so far away.

38:46

Recently, however, I've been talking with him

38:49

again, and part of that is loneliness.

38:51

When he moved away, did he ever say to you, you know, I moved

38:53

away because I've been wanting more

38:55

from this relationship for a long time and

38:58

I felt hopeless that I would ever

39:00

get it.

39:01

If he could say that, that would

39:03

be awesome. He doesn't have the capability

39:06

of saying that.

39:06

What prevented you during this time if

39:09

you felt like this wasn't the right relationship from

39:11

seeking out someone you might be more

39:13

compatible with.

39:14

I wanted to focus on school

39:17

work.

39:17

Again, Hillary, we know you have to focus on your

39:19

school work, but you know people can

39:21

be in school and also have close and intimate

39:24

relationships. So we really hope

39:26

you'll continue to explore this question of intimacy.

39:29

Maybe just get curious about the reasons

39:31

you're not pursuing it and challenge yourself

39:33

on those if you can. But look, you told us

39:36

you have to run to a group. So one last

39:38

quick question before we get to the advice.

39:41

You know there are groups for shopping addiction,

39:43

and since you're already in the twelve step

39:46

system, have you considered joining

39:48

one of them?

39:49

I have considered it, but I haven't acted

39:52

on it. So I looked it up. I looked

39:54

it up online Shoppers

39:56

Anonymous, and I think I'm going

39:58

to because the night before

40:00

I knew I was supposed to be meeting with you,

40:03

I'm online shopping.

40:10

So Hillary, we have some advice for

40:13

you. The first thing we'd like you to do

40:15

is to see if you can cancel your credit

40:18

cards and use only

40:20

Apple Pay or Samsung Pay or

40:22

something that doesn't require

40:25

a credit card, so that it limits you in

40:27

how much you can shop online. There's a huge

40:30

convenience factor here that's making

40:32

it really difficult to not do because

40:34

it's truly and everyone's trying to make

40:36

this easier and one click away. It's not so

40:38

good for shopping adicts to have one click

40:41

away. So if you can put some speed bumps

40:43

in there that you would have to do it in person, preferably

40:45

with cash, we think that would

40:48

help. Okay, the

40:50

next thing is you spoke about these struggles

40:53

with grad school that you're having

40:55

trouble saying on top of stuff getting assignments

40:58

done.

40:58

Correct.

40:59

Now, we are very clear that

41:01

this is not any problem to do with

41:03

your intellectual ability or

41:06

your commitment to this subject

41:08

matter and commitment to this career

41:11

path. There's something psychological

41:13

there.

41:14

I agree.

41:15

Often what happens is that

41:17

when you have worked so hard

41:20

for so long to turn your

41:22

life around, and you're standing

41:25

there at the end of a marathon, before

41:27

the finish line. It can be very

41:29

scaried across it because

41:32

it's the promised land, and it can feel very,

41:34

very scary. And what we'd

41:36

like you to do is

41:39

a visualization exercise. Sit

41:42

in a comfortable place, close your eyes,

41:44

and imagine what your

41:47

life would be like in a year or

41:49

two once you've crossed that

41:51

finish line, once you've finished your

41:53

degree and graduated and got

41:55

your hours in and taking

41:58

care of all the other issues that you have to take

42:00

care of, and now you finally

42:03

have this new life. You'd like you to really

42:05

try and visualize what that

42:07

looks like, because when you do that, you'll

42:09

see the feelings that come up, and some of

42:11

them might be excitement, but some

42:13

of them might be discomfort or anxiety

42:16

because it's a very foreign land

42:19

still, yes it is, and would like

42:21

you to get familiar with that land. And one way to do

42:23

that is my visualizing, and we want

42:25

you to do that as many times as you need until

42:27

you can go to that land and feel

42:30

comfortable there.

42:31

That's a great idea.

42:33

And related to that, we were thinking about this idea

42:35

of I don't deserve to have anything

42:37

good because of what I've done and how

42:40

that really sits inside

42:42

of you.

42:42

Yes, there's a.

42:43

Word cherophobia, which

42:46

means fear of joy. Chero

42:49

meaning joy phobia, fear you

42:51

never really got to have a childhood because you turned

42:54

to alcohol and drugs to cope with your pain,

42:57

and you didn't get to have that joy

42:59

that's un edited that a lot of children

43:02

experience and then they can bring into adulthood

43:04

with them. So we'd like you to reclaim

43:07

this aspect of yourself and

43:09

do something fun that If

43:12

you think about going back to ten years old,

43:14

what would your ten year old self have

43:17

wanted to do for fun? So

43:19

this is before the addiction started.

43:22

What class or hobby or

43:24

activity would the

43:27

young you be excited about?

43:29

And can you extrapolate from that and

43:31

think about what you, as an

43:33

adult right now would find

43:36

enjoyable.

43:37

That's a great idea. I would

43:39

have to really sit and think

43:41

about that and figure out

43:44

what she would.

43:45

Want, right because

43:47

you didn't really have the opportunity to

43:49

sit and think about what she would want because

43:51

you were really trying

43:53

to manage your pain at that time. But

43:56

now you are right on

43:58

the precipice of freedom, and

44:00

that's part of this block because you're kind

44:03

of like, I don't know what to do with this freedom.

44:05

I don't know what to do with joy. So

44:08

part of it is the visualization and part

44:10

of it is being able

44:12

to say, what is this other

44:14

side of me that I can reclaim? And

44:16

as you're making the list, notice what feelings

44:19

come up. How does it feel to you? Do

44:21

you get excited, do you get scared? And

44:23

try to hold on to the excitement part. See

44:26

what it feels like this week to embark

44:28

on that process.

44:29

That's interesting because I've been putting off

44:31

reading for pleasure for

44:34

years because in my mind it

44:36

was I have to focus on text

44:38

books. So I have this

44:41

stack of books I want to read.

44:43

The next thing is that we would like

44:45

you to find a twilsted group

44:47

for shopping addiction, because

44:50

you have some shame around the fact that here

44:52

I am, I'm an addiction counselor and

44:54

here I am falling into a

44:56

different kind perhaps of addiction.

44:59

And why do you want you to go to a group? Because a as

45:01

you know, talking about these things is

45:03

a great way to take ownership and

45:05

to undo feelings of shame. But

45:08

we also want you to keep in mind that

45:10

the fact that you're an addiction counselor does

45:12

not mean that you are not vulnerable

45:15

to addictions. What it does mean

45:18

is that when you catch yourself, you have a

45:20

major head start because

45:22

you know so much because you deal with it.

45:24

So I want you to think of this as, oh, I have a

45:26

head start as opposed to I've fallen behind.

45:29

Great, that makes so much sense

45:32

to me. What I'm hearing, also you say,

45:34

is how I choose to think about something

45:36

that is going to matter on how I deal with it.

45:39

Yes, that's right, And we

45:41

have two more things for you. We

45:43

were thinking about how

45:46

you were saying you felt too old to date,

45:48

and what we think is that you

45:51

weren't ready to date earlier because

45:53

of what you were going through and because

45:56

of all of the changes that you've made in

45:58

your life, you're finally now

46:00

old enough to date. But

46:03

adult dating means doing

46:06

the apps, the dating sites,

46:08

not Craigslist, and not hookup sites.

46:11

So we want you to get on some of these

46:13

dating apps and dating sites that

46:16

are for people who are looking for

46:18

a relationship and to really

46:21

start from learning about yourself in relationship.

46:26

I don't know that that's something I want to seek out

46:28

right now, but I understand what

46:30

you're saying, and I

46:32

do think that people my age and

46:34

older are more interested in

46:37

relationships than they are in a hookup.

46:39

Right And when you say you don't want to pursue it right

46:41

now, you don't have to take any of this advice. But

46:43

I imagine that there's some fear there.

46:47

And we're saying is we see you from

46:49

a very different perspective than you see yourself.

46:52

There's a part here of if

46:54

I reveal myself to somebody, I'm not

46:56

going to be lovable.

46:57

One last thing, and this will continue

47:00

of what Laurie just said. We

47:03

do think that you don't

47:06

yet see yourself as

47:08

we see you, in the sense of how

47:10

remarkable your accomplishments

47:14

are, given where you came

47:16

from, given how long

47:18

you were in that world, you

47:21

had done such an astonishing

47:23

job of turning things around

47:25

that truly we are so impressed

47:28

by how much you've done. You would like you to

47:31

every day spend a moment

47:33

going back to a dark

47:35

moment, a difficult moment, and

47:38

talking to your past self

47:40

and saying, and look at where I am

47:43

today. If I could

47:45

travel back in time and appear

47:47

to myself in that moment with everything

47:49

I was feeling, with everything that was going on,

47:51

and show myself what I was able

47:54

to pull off, that might bring

47:56

you more in touch with how ridiculously

47:59

impressive the turnaround

48:01

is that you've been able to pull off.

48:03

Well, that makes sense, and I certainly have a lot of

48:06

moments to choose from.

48:09

Right It's almost like you're being visited from

48:11

your future self. So if you can go back

48:14

to those moments and

48:16

then here you are in the future right now. And

48:19

if you could have known back then,

48:21

if your future self could have visited you and

48:23

said, look where I am, would

48:25

you ever have believed it?

48:27

Absolutely not.

48:28

So what we think you haven't really absorbed

48:30

that yet though, and we want

48:32

you to make sure that you're focusing on this

48:35

part of what you did and

48:37

visiting your past self and

48:39

saying, wow, you know what this

48:42

is. How things are turning out and

48:44

it is amazing.

48:45

So we really look forward to hearing

48:48

how this went for you. Thank

48:51

you so much for taking the time.

48:52

Thank you so much.

49:00

One thing I noticed when we were giving Hillary

49:02

advice is that she totally

49:05

got what we were saying as we

49:07

were saying it, and not only she

49:09

got here's the assignment. She got. Oh, and this is

49:11

why I think that would be important, or I get why

49:13

you're telling me to do this. So I'm extremely

49:15

helpful that with that level of sophistication

49:18

she'll really be able to follow through as much as possible

49:20

with these things.

49:21

And I really agree that sometimes when people are in

49:23

this profession, they feel like I should

49:25

know better, But in fact she does have

49:27

that head start, and I think that's really

49:30

going to help her when she tries to do the

49:32

assignment.

49:32

This week, you're

49:40

listening to Deotherapists from iHeartRadio.

49:43

We'll be back after a quick break. So

49:57

we heard from Hillary and we gave her a lot

49:59

of home so I am curious to see

50:01

how much of it she was able to get through.

50:04

Hi, this is Hillary.

50:06

I wanted to give you a little update the

50:09

six items you listed. The first one

50:11

was canceled cards. I haven't done that yet,

50:13

but I did pay off a card and

50:17

I have intention to

50:20

get rid of those. The second

50:22

thing was to visualize

50:24

myself graduated

50:26

or one to two years after and

50:29

what kind of feelings that invoked.

50:32

I've actually found it

50:34

relaxing and happy. I

50:37

didn't really feel the fear and anxiety.

50:41

The third thing was I don't deserve

50:43

to have anything good and joy

50:46

and to go back to that ten year old girl.

50:49

So I made a list. The

50:51

first thing is a metal detecting.

50:53

I've always wanted to do that, so I want to get

50:55

myself, you know, a reasonably

50:57

priced metal detector and go

51:00

buy the shores of some lakes

51:03

or find some meteorites, do some

51:05

research. The second thing is

51:07

water skiing. Third

51:09

thing is roller skating. I love to

51:12

roller skate. I haven't done it in years.

51:15

I love reading science fiction, so

51:17

I've read dozens

51:20

of books and I have a lot waiting

51:22

for me. As far as signing

51:24

up for a class, it would be for stargazing.

51:27

My local community they

51:29

have community classes and

51:31

they have one on stargazing. The

51:34

next thing is getting a motorcycle that would fit

51:37

me. I still have my motorcycle

51:39

license, so I'd like to get

51:41

a motorcycle A

51:43

fifty five and older. Softball

51:45

league is another thing I'm

51:47

considering. And then

51:50

finally, of course playing the drums. I

51:52

always wanted to do that. The

51:55

fourth thing you talked about was the

51:58

shopping addictions.

52:01

I signed up for Debtor's Anonymous

52:03

and Overspenders Anonymous on

52:05

Facebook. I'm members of both

52:07

groups now. I did write

52:09

one post, but I'm

52:12

going to look into local area

52:14

face to face meetings. The

52:18

fifth thing was dating, something

52:20

that I'm not really interested

52:23

in. However, I did fill out a

52:25

form or take a personality

52:27

test for a group called Silver

52:30

Singles, so we'll see what happens

52:32

there. And then finally, the

52:34

sixth thing is talking to

52:36

my past self, finding

52:39

a dark moment, which there are lots

52:41

and lots, and I actually did

52:43

that first thing after

52:46

I spoke with you. It was much harder

52:48

than I thought, but I'm going to

52:50

continue to do that because I think it will

52:52

be healing. And then, finally,

52:54

thank you so much for this opportunity.

52:57

It was really more than I expected,

53:00

and taking the time to listen

53:02

to me, and I hope I can help somebody

53:04

else who needs recovery

53:07

it works and

53:10

you can make your life better. Thank

53:12

you.

53:16

I was smiling so broadly

53:19

when she was mentioning the list of things she

53:22

might want to do because they are so different

53:24

and they're so interesting. There's the metal

53:26

detector stuff, and then the water skiing

53:28

and roller skating and sci fi and take

53:30

a stargazing class, and the motorcycle

53:33

and the soft body. It just was

53:35

one thing after another. So this is a woman

53:37

who has so many varied interests

53:41

and such a rich inner life that it would

53:43

be amazing to see her really

53:46

connect and start to do some of these

53:48

things. It was so great to hear.

53:49

You, And I think what it shows is that we

53:51

don't actually lose that

53:54

childhood self, that that was still

53:56

in there. It was just repressed, it

53:58

was buried, and we opened the

54:00

door by simply asking a question, what

54:03

would you do if you could let yourself

54:05

dream, if you could be

54:07

that child again? What could

54:09

you do? And it was so easy

54:12

for her to do. I'm sure if she sat

54:14

down even longer, she'd probably come up with more.

54:16

She has such a rich inner life.

54:18

Yeah, it was amazing and it was so wonderful

54:21

to hear because she didn't lose that over

54:23

the years. You know, that's still there and it's been

54:25

there all along, and now she gets to actually

54:28

do something with it, which I'm so excited for her.

54:30

And I think sometimes we need permission, We need permission

54:32

to be able to say I get to

54:35

have fun, I get to have joy in my life.

54:38

Which brings me to some of the stuff

54:40

that she didn't quite do. For example, the dating

54:43

that she wasn't quite ready for

54:45

necessarily. However, she did sign

54:47

up respond to a personality thing for a service.

54:49

But I do hope that she gets

54:53

to dating. But I certainly see that there's a lot

54:55

of other pieces of her social

54:57

and personal life, and that she can

54:59

work in the meantime that also, I

55:01

think would be very meaningful.

55:03

There were two areas where she was reluctant. One

55:05

was the dating, and

55:07

then with the credit cards. She paid off

55:09

a credit card, but there was the

55:12

intention to

55:14

cancel the credit cards, but she didn't do

55:16

that. And so whenever there's that

55:18

I intend to do this, but you don't actually

55:21

do it, it might mean that

55:23

she's just not quite ready to

55:25

cut off the supply yet.

55:28

On the one hand, but what comforts me in this

55:31

very specific case is that

55:33

she signed up for those Facebook groups for death

55:35

is Anonymous and Overspenders anonymous, and is

55:38

planning to go to in person meetings, which

55:40

will absolutely then help with the accountability

55:43

and probably nudge her to cancel

55:45

the credit cards. But by paying off one of

55:47

the credit cards by joining those

55:49

other groups and having accountability. She

55:51

said she even made one post on the Facebook

55:54

group and hopefully getting to meetings very

55:56

soon. I really hope they'll be follow up there. But

55:59

we always think a therapist that

56:01

when somebody has any kind of addiction

56:04

issue, that it's not just about

56:06

deal with the addiction, but it's about fill the

56:08

voids in your life that might

56:11

be there. And so I'm really hopeful

56:13

that all this works together for

56:15

her. By doing all those things, it

56:17

will help support her in backing

56:20

away from this new kind of dependency

56:22

that she developed. In terms of the.

56:23

Show being yeah, and I do hope that she goes in person

56:26

because we know that again with addiction, connection

56:29

is so important. Having a support system

56:31

is so important, and the in person experience

56:33

is going to be very different for her than

56:36

the online experience. I think both are useful

56:38

in different ways. And I also was

56:41

really glad to hear that she is

56:43

able to do hard things. She said that talking

56:45

to her past self was very hard,

56:48

and yet she's optimistic that it's

56:50

going to be healing for her. So even

56:53

though it's something that may create

56:55

some discomfort in her, she's more

56:58

than willing to do it, and that is a great

57:00

sign.

57:01

And I have a suggestion for Hillary if she's

57:03

listening, and for other listeners if they're thinking of

57:05

doing this kind of exercise. If you start

57:08

and you find that it's triggering anxiety,

57:10

to go back to specific

57:12

very difficult moments, then ease in.

57:14

Start with less difficult moments, start

57:17

there and build your way up. You

57:19

don't have to start with the bleakest, darkest,

57:21

the most difficult, because you don't want to retrigger

57:24

past trauma. It's fine to work

57:26

your way up to that, but to start with any low

57:29

moment and then insert that

57:31

visitor from the future that's telling that past

57:34

version of yourself that I really

57:36

turn things around.

57:41

Next week, we'll be bringing you a special live

57:44

episode of Dear Therapists, where we'll

57:46

share how we do these Dear Therapist sessions

57:48

every week and what we're really thinking when

57:50

we're trying to help all of you through the issues you

57:52

bring us.

57:53

I literally say to myself in my head, I'm

57:56

going to do a Lori here, and then I do a thing

57:58

that I think Laurie would do.

57:59

Hey, fellow travelers, if you're enjoying

58:01

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58:03

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58:06

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58:08

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58:10

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58:13

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58:15

If you have a dilemma you'd like to discuss with us,

58:17

they go smooth. Email us at

58:19

Lorian Guy at iHeartMedia

58:22

dot com.

58:23

Our executive producer is Noel Brown.

58:25

We're produced and edited by Mike Johns,

58:28

Josh Fisher, and Chris Childs. Our

58:30

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58:33

Special thanks to Alison Wright and to our

58:35

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58:38

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58:40

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58:41

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