0:03

Hey, fellow travelers. I'm Lari

0:05

Gottlieb. I'm the author of Maybe You Should

0:07

Talk to Someone, and I write the Dear Therapist

0:10

advice column for The Atlantic.

0:11

And I'm Guy Wench. I'm the author of

0:14

Emotional First Aid, and I write

0:16

the Dear Guy advice column for TED. And

0:18

this is Deo Therapists.

0:21

Each week we invite you into a session

0:23

so you can learn more about yourself by hearing

0:26

how we help other people come to understand

0:28

themselves better and make changes in their lives.

0:30

So sit back and welcome to today's

0:32

session.

0:34

This week, our fellow traveler is haunted

0:36

by the ghost of his last relationship as

0:38

he tries to move on with a new partner.

0:40

It's really hard for me to open

0:43

up to him because every

0:45

time in the past I have opened up about my feelings,

0:48

it's either been met with rejection or

0:50

met with OCD. So it's really hard for

0:52

me to trust that I

0:54

can have a safe person to open up to first.

0:56

A quick note, Dear Therapist is for informational

0:59

purposes only, does not constitute

1:01

medical or psychological advice, and is

1:03

not a substitute for professional healthcare advice,

1:05

diagnosis, or treatment. Always seek the

1:07

advice of your physician, mental health professional,

1:10

or other qualified health provider with any questions

1:12

you may have regarding a medical or

1:14

psychological condition. By submitting a

1:16

letter, you are agreeing to let iHeartMedia

1:19

use it in part or in full, and we may edit it

1:21

for length and clarity and the sessions you'll

1:23

hear. All names have been changed for the privacy of our

1:25

fellow travelers.

1:29

Hi Laurie, Hi Guy. So

1:31

I think today we're going to talk about relationships.

1:34

We are. We have a letter from someone who's

1:36

in a new relationship but not quite

1:39

over the old one, and it goes like this,

1:41

Geotherapists. Eight months ago, I

1:43

got out of an engagement with my five and a half

1:46

year partner. It had been a long time

1:48

coming and was ultimately better for the both

1:50

of us. My former fiance suffered

1:52

from severe clinical OCD. His

1:55

compulsions included excessive repeating

1:57

of the same question that often centered

1:59

around me or our relationship, for example,

2:02

asking twenty times in a row if it

2:04

was considered cheating, if he thought another man was

2:06

attractive, or apologizing for sighing

2:08

and making sure I knew that he wasn't mad at me. I

2:11

had been having doubts about being of the relationship for

2:13

quite a while. The constant questions

2:15

drove me to the point of almost madness and

2:18

caused a lot of anxiety, self doubt,

2:20

and insecurities within myself. I

2:23

felt he never supported me or could be present

2:25

for the things I needed because we were too focused

2:27

on him and his needs. In the

2:29

end, he was the one who ended things to

2:32

me. It was completely out of the blue. I

2:34

had shared my unhappiness with a relationship on multiple

2:37

occasions. He always cried and said

2:39

he would change, and told me how much he wanted to be

2:41

with me. He never once told me he was unhappy

2:44

or that he needed something different from me. I

2:46

think that was the hardest part. After all

2:48

these years I had supported him, it was

2:50

difficult to accept that he was the one who couldn't

2:52

be with me anymore. I have since

2:55

entered a new and much healthier relationship,

2:57

and even though I have moved on from my ex and

2:59

don't have feelings towards them anymore, it

3:01

still seems like he occupies a lot of

3:04

my thoughts. I question what it says

3:06

about me that I allowed myself to be in such

3:08

an unhealthy relationship for so long

3:10

can you help me find peace and closure

3:12

with this toxic past. I don't

3:14

want it to affect my current relationship, but

3:17

sometimes feel so stuck in the past,

3:19

even though my partner loves and supports me

3:21

in the ways I need. I fear it's only

3:23

a matter of time before things go wrong, or

3:26

question if I'm missing signs that it won't work

3:28

out, Doug.

3:30

This is so common when somebody

3:33

has a relationship that really

3:35

marked them in a way, even

3:37

when they move on to a much healthier relationship,

3:40

if they haven't processed what happened

3:42

in the other relationship, meaning it's not just

3:44

that the relationship is over, it's

3:46

that they processed what happened

3:49

during that time, they end up

3:52

feeling like there's something incomplete, something

3:54

unfinished, and they can't truly enjoy the new

3:56

relationship.

3:57

It's also very common that when you're with

3:59

somebody who has a manifest disorder,

4:01

whether mental or physical, so

4:04

much attention goes to that disorder

4:06

that a lot of other things get lost. And

4:09

OCD is very difficult because people

4:11

who have it described that they feel

4:14

harassed by it, but then often

4:16

their partners can feel harassed by it as

4:18

well, because it can be a very difficult disorder

4:21

to live with.

4:21

And the thing too about the OCD is

4:24

that it took up so much space in the relationship,

4:27

and there was so much focus on what the partner

4:30

was doing that was harmful in the relationship.

4:33

But it takes two And there was a question that

4:35

he asked, which I think was a good one that I want to explore

4:37

with him, which was what was his role

4:39

in this relationship and why was he in it for so long?

4:42

I agree, so let's go explore it with him.

4:45

You're listening to Dear Therapists for My Heart

4:47

Radio. We'll be back after a short break.

4:56

I'm laur Gottlieber and.

4:58

I'm Guy Wench and this is

5:00

Deotherapists. Hey

5:03

Doug, welcome to the show.

5:04

Hey Lori, Hi Guy, how are you doing today.

5:06

We're well, Thanks for coming on the show.

5:08

Thank you for having me.

5:09

You're welcome. We'd like to hear a

5:12

little bit more about the relationship,

5:14

the ups and the downs. You mentioned some

5:16

of the downs, but we'd like to hear a little bit about how

5:18

bad things got, how good things were, and

5:21

how things came to an end.

5:22

Sure, So Max and I

5:25

met back in twenty fourteen,

5:27

and we met through work and connected right

5:30

off the bat. He was a really friendly guy

5:32

and just really easy to talk to,

5:34

so we started dating shortly

5:37

after we met. Everything was good

5:39

at first, and about six

5:41

months in he told me that

5:44

he battled OCD clinical

5:46

OCD and OCD

5:49

can manifest differently for everybody,

5:52

but for Max in particular, he

5:55

would have obsessive thoughts and then repeat

5:57

himself many, many times, and

6:00

over time it progressively got worse. When

6:02

we started dating, it was, you

6:05

know, maybe once a day every other day

6:07

he would start really focusing on

6:09

something, and towards the end it was

6:11

all the time. It was all day, every day,

6:13

from morning to night, about really anything. It

6:15

could have been. He was upset that he

6:18

breathed wrong, or maybe he saw

6:20

somebody attractive and thought, is

6:22

that cheating? Do I want to be with this guy more

6:25

than with Doug? And

6:27

I think over time I didn't

6:30

realize how much it was weighing on me, and my

6:32

anxiety and my depression was

6:34

really starting to come through, because

6:37

I mean, it was really just all about him and all

6:39

about his problems, and towards the

6:42

end it really got to the point where

6:44

we were fighting in front of our friends. I

6:48

would try to remove myself from the situation.

6:50

I would lock myself in the bathroom in the bedroom, and

6:52

he would pick the lock. I would

6:54

try to leave the house just

6:56

to get some space, and he would call me thirty times

6:59

in a row to turn off my phone.

7:01

So it got really intense. Towards

7:04

the end. At the four year mark,

7:06

we got engaged, and

7:08

I was really apprehensive about it, but

7:11

I was also really hopeful because

7:14

I thought maybe this would be a time

7:16

in our relationship where we could really focus

7:18

on starting fresh and starting new and

7:21

really going forward with getting his OCD

7:24

under control.

7:25

Doug, let me interrupt and ask you a question. It

7:27

sounds like the relationship

7:30

was so volatile and there

7:33

was so much stress. You're

7:35

fighting in front of friends, you were locking

7:38

yourself in a room, he was picking the lock. What

7:41

made you both decide we

7:43

should take this to the next step and get engaged.

7:46

I think for both of us

7:49

it was our first serious

7:51

relationship, and all

7:54

of our friends had been getting engaged. It

7:56

just kind of made sense at the time of

7:58

our life. And I really

8:02

did love Max. I

8:04

loved his family. I

8:06

don't have a great relationship with my family,

8:09

and his family fully embraced

8:11

me from the very first time that we

8:13

met, and I think

8:17

I was really excited to have that

8:20

in my life, and it

8:22

was really important for me to have that. And

8:25

we did have a lot of good times

8:27

together. We had a lot of great memories

8:29

together, and I

8:32

really had hope that it

8:34

would get better. I knew the OCD would always

8:37

be there, but I thought with

8:40

therapy and with

8:43

work, we could make it better.

8:45

And it just never really got better.

8:47

And did you see Max doing any of those things, going

8:49

to therapy or doing the work to change

8:52

Based on the requests that you've made about

8:54

the things that made you uncomfortable.

8:56

He would go to therapy every

8:58

once in a while, it was always really

9:01

hit or miss, and it was always me trying

9:03

to push him to go. When

9:06

I would have conversations about being

9:08

unhappy. My two requests were, please

9:11

see a therapist regularly, and please

9:14

reach out to your friends or your family for support,

9:17

because it all kind of fell

9:19

on me. He never really

9:21

did that consistently. He

9:23

didn't feel comfortable talking to his friends

9:26

or family. He was very private about

9:28

his OCD, so no, I

9:30

never really saw much of an effort,

9:33

which was where my frustration came

9:35

in.

9:36

I hear how hard it was for you that

9:39

he was having so much trouble with the OCD.

9:43

Did he feel like he was having trouble

9:45

with it? In other words, it sounds like you

9:47

were the one saying, please get some help for this,

9:50

and it sounds like it was pretty severe. Was

9:52

he saying I don't like

9:55

having to live this way or did he

9:57

not feel like it was as big of an issue as you

9:59

did.

10:00

He definitely knew it was an issue,

10:02

and he struggled with it. And

10:05

to him, going to

10:07

therapy and doing the work was

10:09

harder than living with his OCD.

10:12

He wasn't willing to put in that work

10:15

because a lot of the therapy was

10:18

exposure and putting himself in

10:20

situations that would make him feel

10:22

uncomfortable, and he didn't

10:24

want to do that.

10:26

And when did that become apparent to you that he didn't

10:29

want to do that? How far into the relationship.

10:31

I would say probably after the

10:34

first year, year and a half, and

10:37

I continued to have hope that

10:39

he would go and

10:42

after we got engaged and I told him

10:45

I'm going to put a pause on our wedding plans because

10:47

I don't feel comfortable moving forward. I

10:50

really need to see you making an effort

10:52

to go to therapy and work

10:54

on this, and he

10:57

didn't. And after all these conversations,

11:00

he would cry, he would say he was going

11:02

to do the work. He would get me flowers or write

11:04

me letters, and nothing ever changed.

11:07

And eventually I told him I'm

11:10

not seeing a change, and he

11:12

immediately got out his phone and made five

11:14

appointments with a therapist. But at that point

11:16

it was too little, too late, and

11:19

ultimately he was

11:21

the one who ended it with me. He

11:24

told me he was unhappy, and that's the

11:26

first time he had even said

11:28

that to me, So it really came

11:30

as a shock that he was unhappy

11:33

with me when he never really voiced

11:35

that.

11:35

You said, when he said, okay, I'm

11:38

going to go do this, you

11:40

said, it's too little too late. What

11:43

do you mean you were seeing that he was finally doing

11:45

the thing that you had waited years to happen.

11:47

So why was it too little too late? You

11:49

were still in the relationship, You hadn't broken

11:51

up with him, You weren't planning to. He was

11:53

the one who broke up with you.

11:55

Yeah, I was planning

11:57

on breaking up with him. I knew

12:00

that it wasn't good. I

12:02

think I was so afraid to

12:04

break up with him, and I

12:08

just didn't have those feelings

12:10

of love. I just felt mostly

12:13

resentment.

12:13

Why were you afraid to break up with him?

12:16

I think I was afraid because I had

12:19

never really been on

12:21

my own. I had such a strong support

12:23

system with his family and

12:25

with his friends. I

12:28

have my own friends and support system, but

12:31

I just really didn't have a

12:33

lot and his family

12:35

and friends really supported me, and I was afraid

12:38

that I was going to lose that with losing

12:40

him, and I think the

12:42

fear of an unknown future was

12:45

scary to me too. Having

12:48

at least a plan moving

12:50

forward with somebody and knowing kind

12:52

of what my life was going to look like was

12:55

comforting to me in a way, even though I was

12:57

unhappy. I know it doesn't make sense, but

13:01

that's kind of where I was.

13:02

I think it makes perfect sense. One

13:05

of the things you keep mentioning is his

13:07

family and the draw of his family, and I'm

13:09

wondering if you could tell us a little bit

13:11

more about your family and why you

13:13

felt like you didn't have that in

13:15

your family.

13:17

So I was raised in a very religious

13:19

family. My dad is a pastor, my

13:22

mom is a stay at home mom. I have

13:24

two older sisters that are married with

13:26

children and an older brother, and

13:30

everybody in my family is pretty

13:32

religious, and so when I came out

13:35

around the age of twenty three, it

13:38

really wasn't accepted with my family. They

13:40

really I got kicked

13:42

out of my parents' house. I moved in with

13:44

my best friend. I had all of my stuff

13:47

in two trash bags and just kind of said

13:49

I'm moving in with you. And

13:52

it was really tough for a long

13:54

time because my family has always

13:56

stressed the importance of

13:59

our family bond and I

14:01

felt that I

14:03

was disappointing them and letting them down. And

14:06

even throughout my relationship with Max,

14:10

my parents never asked about

14:12

him. In five and a half years

14:14

and being engaged, they never met

14:16

him. They didn't really care.

14:19

And I would be on a

14:21

FaceTime or a video call and

14:23

they would ask about my dog, and then they

14:26

wouldn't even mention anything about Max.

14:28

So it was very much a

14:31

part of my life that they did not want to know about.

14:33

And noticing that when you talk

14:35

about Max, and also when you talk about

14:38

your parents, you seem

14:40

much more fluent in talking

14:42

about their feelings and

14:45

what they were going through than

14:47

you are your own. So you said, you know,

14:49

I felt like I really disappointed

14:51

them. They felt very disappointed in my parents.

14:54

But they kicked you out. You literally had to put

14:56

your stuff in trash bags and go to a friend.

14:59

You didn't really mention and any feelings you might have had

15:01

about that kind of disappointment of

15:04

your parents actually not accepting you

15:07

and kicking you out of the house. So

15:10

first, I do want to hear what that was like for you,

15:12

But I also want to ask you if

15:15

that's something that you notice that you do that you

15:17

really focus on the other person's feelings

15:20

and yours come after that.

15:24

Yeah. I do

15:27

have a hard time articulating my own feelings

15:29

a lot of the times, and I

15:34

think during that time, I just felt

15:38

shame that I wasn't

15:41

doing what my

15:43

family thought was best for me. That's

15:46

when I would say I really started feeling depressed

15:49

and anxious. Was during that time.

15:51

You're saying that I felt shame for not doing

15:53

what my family wanted, But

15:55

it's actually not about what you're doing, it's about who

15:57

you are.

15:59

Yeah, much more refound definitely,

16:03

Yeah, And I felt

16:05

very alone during that time, and

16:07

I think with Max. That's

16:09

all I did was put his feelings

16:12

and needs before my own. And it is a very

16:15

lonely feeling because I

16:17

can sit here and explain what

16:20

it's like to have somebody

16:23

ask you the same question twenty times in a row,

16:25

or from morning tonight, just

16:28

non stop asking the same

16:30

thing. And I would explain that to my friends. I would

16:32

tell them about it. Sometimes they would even experience,

16:34

but they never

16:36

really fully understood. So was a very lonely

16:38

feeling because no one quite understands

16:41

what it's like to go through that.

16:43

But even here in this example, who actually didn't

16:46

tell us anything about how that feled to you? So

16:50

how did that feel to you?

16:51

It was frustrating. It

16:54

would anger me. I would get so angry

16:56

so quick. Even if you just asked me the

16:58

same question just a second time after

17:01

the first time, I would instantly get super

17:03

angry because it

17:06

just was unending.

17:07

Did you ever get angry with your parents?

17:09

I did. I went about a year

17:12

without speaking to them because

17:15

I didn't know how to address

17:18

what I was feeling. I didn't know how to talk

17:22

to them about how they made me feel,

17:25

and it was easier to just not respond.

17:28

They live out of state, so it was really easy

17:30

to just not talk to them.

17:33

Did you ever express that to them thereafter?

17:35

How you felt the anger because to be kicked

17:38

out of your house by your parents,

17:40

who raised you and loved you and

17:42

their other siblings, and I'm sure they were

17:44

welcome, to be actually kicked out because

17:47

of who you are, must feel

17:49

horrible. Did you ever tell

17:51

them? Do you ever have an opportunity in the years

17:53

that followed to tell them what that was like for

17:55

you?

17:57

I did. I started going

17:59

to therapy myself, which was really

18:02

profound, and my therapist

18:05

helped me write a letter to them,

18:08

because a lot of times when

18:10

I would try speaking to my parents, they would my

18:12

mom especially would overtalk or

18:15

interrupt, or they would have Bible

18:17

verses that counteracted what I would

18:19

say or how I was feeling, and I was never

18:22

able to fully articulate

18:25

in those moments how I felt. So I

18:27

was able to write them a letter and kind

18:29

of laid everything out about

18:32

how I was feeling. And it

18:35

felt really good to send that, And

18:39

I would say, that's kind of the turning point

18:42

in my family's relationship with me. It

18:44

kind of opened up some conversations about

18:48

what it was like to be me. I don't

18:50

think they had really put themselves in

18:52

my shoes, even though they still believe

18:55

the same way. We can

18:57

at least have a little bit more open

19:00

conversations about

19:03

being gay, about living

19:06

my truth, and

19:08

it's not as combative anymore as it had been

19:10

previously.

19:11

How did they respond when they got that letter?

19:14

They wrote me a letter back,

19:16

and they were

19:20

understanding, I would say, where I

19:22

was coming from. They still had a

19:25

lot to say about how they felt

19:27

and where

19:29

they were coming from. And I

19:32

think they felt terrible

19:36

that they had put me through, that they

19:39

had kind of had it in their minds that they were

19:41

doing this out of love and because they cared about

19:43

me, and because they were worried about my

19:45

future. They didn't

19:47

realize that they were the

19:49

ones that were hurting me and making

19:52

me feel less

19:54

than or unequal to my

19:56

siblings.

19:57

What was your siblings reaction you talk about

20:00

up being alone. Was it your

20:02

parents and your siblings who reacted

20:04

the same way, or did your siblings have a different reaction.

20:07

My sisters are both pretty religious

20:10

as well. I would say it wasn't as

20:12

extreme as my parents, But my

20:14

one sister did say she didn't

20:17

want me around her kids alone because

20:19

she was worried that I would hurt

20:21

them or influence them in some

20:23

way. So that was really

20:25

tough because I've always been really close with

20:27

my sisters. My brother

20:30

is not super religious, so

20:32

he was a little bit more accepting

20:35

and understanding, but he

20:37

kind of had his own problems

20:39

with my parents, so he kind of stayed

20:41

out of that family

20:44

dynamic.

20:45

Has it changed with your sister since then so

20:47

that you can be with her children

20:49

and she has shifted

20:51

in her views.

20:53

She has I feel like it's easier

20:56

for me to talk to my sisters. I

20:58

think they understand

21:00

more how hurtful it

21:03

has been for me, and they're

21:05

much more open to even talking

21:08

about my life and my partners,

21:10

and they're fine with me being

21:13

around their kids. So that

21:15

definitely has improved over time.

21:19

How is your parents' relationship.

21:22

They have been

21:24

together for a really long time, I think

21:27

over forty years. They

21:31

fought a lot when we were kids, and

21:33

it was always behind closed doors. So

21:36

my dad, like I said, as a pastor, so

21:38

they could be fighting on the car on the way to church,

21:40

and then when we would walk into church, everything would be fine

21:43

and great. There

21:45

were a lot of actually a lot of

21:47

similarities between the way that my

21:49

parents would fight and the way that Max

21:52

and I would fight. My mom

21:54

wasn't ever diagnosed with OCD, and

21:57

she refused to ever go

21:59

and find not if she was. But there were so

22:01

many similarities between my

22:04

mom and Max, and

22:06

it felt sometimes that I was just living

22:09

the same life as my parents in

22:11

a way.

22:12

What was it like with your mom? Can you give us

22:14

an example of something that was similar?

22:17

Yeah, So she would be telling a

22:20

story, for instance, about something

22:22

that happened at church, and as

22:24

one does in a conversation, we

22:27

would interject, the kids would interject, my dad

22:29

would interject, and she would get really frustrated

22:31

by someone interrupting her, and she would start her

22:33

whole story all over again. She

22:36

was also really really particular

22:38

about how the house looked, about how tighty it was,

22:41

how everything would be

22:43

placed, and she would

22:45

notice dust on the floor that nobody

22:47

could see, and she would be really really

22:50

ainal about trying to make sure everything was

22:52

right. Even as kids, we would have to have our rooms clean

22:54

and our beds made in the morning before we would go to

22:56

school.

22:57

When did it occur to you that I

23:00

have had OCD. Fiance

23:02

has OCD one of those two connect

23:05

for you.

23:06

I think when we when my fiance

23:08

and I started fighting more,

23:11

and I remember having one

23:13

conversation that was pretty much identical

23:16

to the conversations my parents would have,

23:18

where my partner would

23:21

be relentless in

23:23

talking about the same thing over and over, and

23:26

at first I would maybe try to stay on my ground

23:29

or tell

23:31

him he needed to stop, or even try

23:33

the silent treatment, and he would just keep

23:35

going and going until I would just throw

23:37

my hands up and say, Okay,

23:40

you're right, Yeah, it's fine, or just

23:42

agree with whatever he would say to

23:44

move forward so that we weren't stuck

23:46

on the same thing. And that was

23:48

exactly what my dad did all the time, because

23:51

he would rather just let

23:53

it go than continue to argue.

23:55

Because my mom would just keep

23:57

going until everyone would agree

24:00

with her.

24:00

See, in that moment, you might make that connection, but

24:02

you literally have the model that but you don't get

24:04

divorced over it, you don't break up over it. Your

24:07

dad totivated it for the forty years and

24:09

he was a trooper, so you must have felt

24:11

like, no, this is not grounds for a

24:13

breakup. Because my parents have a similar

24:15

situation and they did not break up.

24:17

Yeah, exactly right.

24:19

When he broke up with you tell

24:22

us about the context

24:24

in which that happened.

24:26

So when we would have our conversations

24:28

and I would come to him and tell him the things that

24:30

I needed, like going to therapy or

24:32

reaching out to his friends, he would always just ask

24:35

me for patience, and he

24:37

would always say how much he loved me and wanted

24:40

to make things work. And

24:43

his mom is battling pancreatic

24:46

cancer and has been

24:48

battling that for almost two years

24:50

now, and one

24:53

night we were on the phone with her and

24:55

praying with her, and

24:57

when we got off the phone, he just started crying

25:01

and asked him what was wrong, and I told

25:03

him she's going to be okay, It's going to

25:05

be okay, and he just said, I

25:07

think we should break up. I'm unhappy,

25:10

And at that exact

25:13

moment, I felt relieved.

25:16

I was sad, and I even said, I agree.

25:18

I think that this is the right decision for us.

25:22

And we kind of just

25:24

had a peaceful night where we reminisced

25:27

about our past and we talked about our dog,

25:30

and we just really

25:32

kind of made a

25:34

plan for the future. What we were

25:36

going to do as far as a living situation.

25:40

And then overnight, I

25:42

think that's when the fear for me really

25:44

started to set in and

25:47

I thought, no, I don't want this to end.

25:50

I think again, because I was just afraid.

25:52

And so the next day I wrote

25:55

him a letter and I told him, I want to

25:57

fight for this. I want to make this work. You

25:59

have never told me what you needed from me, so

26:02

I can give you what you need. Maybe

26:04

we can go to couple's therapy, maybe we can

26:06

take some time apart and think about

26:08

it. And he was really

26:10

really unwilling to do

26:12

any of that work. And I was really surprised

26:15

by that and really hurt by that because I

26:18

had tried for so long to make

26:20

it work and he

26:24

ended it because he was unhappy

26:27

and I had no idea and wasn't willing

26:29

to fight or work

26:31

on anything.

26:32

Do you know why he was unhappy? Was able to tell

26:34

you because for five and a half years he never

26:37

told you that he was unhappy,

26:39

And now he's saying, I don't want this,

26:42

I've been unhappy.

26:43

He didn't did you ask him?

26:45

I did ask him. He didn't really

26:48

have a reason. He had a really hard time articulating

26:51

it. I brought up

26:53

the fact that it must

26:55

be hard for him to know that I

26:58

was really frustrated and that I would get really

27:00

angry, and he kind of agreed

27:02

to that, and I tried reaching out to his

27:04

friends and his family to see if any of them

27:07

had any further insight, and

27:11

they didn't.

27:11

You said you were surprised that

27:14

when you said, hey, I'll work on this, let's go to therapy,

27:16

let's do something, that he wasn't willing to work

27:18

on it. When for

27:21

five and a half years he wasn't willing to work

27:23

on things. Why were you surprised that here

27:25

at the end, he yet again was not

27:27

willing to work on things.

27:29

I think because we did have such a long

27:32

relationship, and so I

27:35

thought maybe maybe he would

27:37

be able to tell me why he was upset or unhappy

27:41

in therapy, or maybe things would come out

27:43

that we could work on together to

27:45

help our relationship.

27:47

So you said, at first I was relieved, and

27:50

then overnight I got really scared

27:52

and it was going to be scary because similar

27:55

to when you had to pack everything into the two trash

27:57

bags and move out of your parents' house, here,

28:00

you were going to lose a lot, not just

28:03

Max, but his family, his friends.

28:06

His mom was going through this very very difficult illness,

28:08

and you feared you were going to lose

28:11

a family again. And

28:13

I can understand why that was very

28:16

scary for you in that moment. How

28:18

much were you in touch with the fact that

28:20

I'm trying to get back together because

28:22

I'm afraid of moving on

28:25

alone versus no, I think this relationship

28:27

can work out.

28:28

At the time, I didn't

28:30

recognize that. Now that it's

28:32

been a few months since we've

28:35

ended things, I see that it

28:37

was that. But

28:39

at the time, I really

28:41

was just trying to hold on to the

28:44

future that I thought that we could have, and

28:49

hold on to whatever

28:52

relationship we had at that point,

28:54

because I was afraid to be alone

28:56

because, like you said, I

28:58

had already lost my mind family unit,

29:01

and it was really scary to think about losing another

29:04

family unit.

29:05

So after the anxiety set in

29:07

about being alone, what

29:10

happened between you there? How did you actually

29:12

split?

29:13

We actually lived together for a month

29:15

after we split because our lease was

29:18

not done yet and

29:20

we were both looking for a place. And

29:23

I kind of attribute that time as a really

29:25

big blessing and a really big

29:27

curse because we were

29:30

able to talk about a lot of things that we had

29:32

never talked about in the relationship.

29:34

I got to bring up a lot of things that

29:37

I felt frustrated by a lot of hurt

29:39

that I had felt in the relationship. I got

29:42

to bring up mostly because I

29:44

was really upset during that time.

29:46

And even though you were talking a lot during that

29:48

time, he still never was able to articulate

29:51

how he came to the realization that he wasn't

29:53

happy in the relationship. No,

29:56

did you directly ask him?

29:58

Yeah?

29:58

I would ask him if there was somebody else and

30:00

he would say no. I

30:03

would ask him if it

30:05

was because of the way I looked,

30:08

and he said no. I

30:10

asked him if it was because I

30:12

smoked marijuana. He said no. And

30:16

well, Doug, you're.

30:16

Sort of playing twenty questions as

30:19

opposed to saying, can

30:21

you tell me why you're unhappy in

30:23

the relationship? Did

30:25

you ever ask him that question?

30:28

No? I don't think I directly asked

30:30

him in that way.

30:31

No.

30:32

Do you have an idea of why you didn't ask

30:34

him.

30:35

Maybe I was afraid for him to tell

30:37

me that it wasn't anything to do with

30:39

me, that maybe it was just because we were incompatible.

30:41

Was that similar to what happened in your family, where

30:44

there was this thing that people just knew but

30:47

nobody wanted to say directly.

30:49

I think my siblings knew. They

30:52

didn't really seem surprised when I came out to

30:54

them. My parents seemed very surprised,

30:57

but I had kept it a secret for

30:59

so long, and I

31:01

played the part of a

31:04

straight man that went to church

31:06

and loved God for so long that my parents

31:08

just didn't expect that from me.

31:10

Do you have a thought about why

31:13

you felt freer to

31:15

bring up a lot of your feelings and frustrations

31:18

in the relationship in that month

31:20

after the breakup then

31:22

you were before the breakup.

31:25

I think at that point

31:27

I felt like I had nothing to lose. He

31:30

clearly didn't want to be with me, and I

31:32

wanted him to know how much he hurt

31:34

me.

31:35

Was he responsive to the things that you said. Did

31:37

he have an understanding or

31:39

compassion that maybe he didn't have

31:41

in the relationship.

31:43

I think so. I think he really

31:45

realized how deep it went. I

31:47

don't think he really understood

31:50

that throughout the relationship,

31:53

but he definitely apologized

31:56

for the things that he said

31:58

and did and I really relationship,

32:01

and I know he meant

32:03

it. I know that he really, he really

32:05

did feel bad.

32:08

When guy was asking why it was easier to talk

32:10

about this after the relationship had ended,

32:13

and you said you had nothing to lose. What

32:16

would have happened. Did you imagine if

32:19

you had told him at the time when he made a remark

32:21

that hurt you, to tell him,

32:23

hey, that really hurt me. What

32:25

do you think his response would have been.

32:27

When we first started dating

32:29

and his OCD really started to come

32:31

through, a lot of his OCD was

32:34

about finding other men more attractive

32:37

than me and wondering

32:40

if that meant he was cheating. And

32:43

on several occasions I brought up how

32:46

much it hurt me because I felt like he

32:48

didn't find me attractive. And

32:51

when I would bring up something like that, he

32:53

would apologize over and over

32:55

and over again and feel bad. And then

32:58

when it would happen again and I would say that

33:00

hurts me, that makes me feel insecure,

33:03

than he would apologize again over and over

33:06

and so it got to the point where I was like, well,

33:08

I'm just not going to say anything because he's

33:10

not listening to what I'm saying. It just triggers his

33:12

OCD.

33:13

More so, what was different after

33:15

you broke up because he still had OCD? What

33:18

was more satisfying about his response

33:20

after you broke up that you weren't

33:22

getting when you brought it up

33:24

during the relationship.

33:26

I think it seems like he understood

33:28

it more so. For example,

33:31

with me feeling unattractive,

33:33

I would work out two

33:35

times a day, I would count my

33:37

calories, and he never knew that. I

33:40

felt much more free to say those things

33:42

after we had broken up. I

33:45

think because of that, it

33:47

made more sense to him, and I think he could really

33:49

see a bigger picture than

33:52

just those moments.

33:54

To me, it seems clear that the difference

33:56

in how he responded after

33:59

you had broken up was due significantly

34:02

to the fact that you brought things up in

34:04

a different way, that you were not

34:07

holding back to you like, I'm just going to talk

34:09

about how I feel. I'm not going to hold back. I'm not going

34:11

to worry that this might break something because it's already

34:13

broken. And that evoked a

34:16

different response. Are you clear

34:18

that it was you speaking your truth

34:21

about how you feel that garnered

34:23

the better response, as opposed to him being

34:25

in a different place.

34:27

I definitely understand

34:29

that now, and that's

34:32

something that I've been working on through therapy.

34:35

I think I'm trying to learn

34:37

how to be more vocal and

34:39

say my needs and my

34:42

feelings, but it is still

34:44

difficult.

34:45

For me to do.

34:46

So you broke up several months ago, and

34:50

what is your contact like now with

34:54

Max? And tell us also

34:56

when and how you met your new boyfriend.

34:59

Yeah.

35:00

Yeah, so Max and I

35:02

still have contact. We

35:04

had a dog together, so I will

35:06

take the dog. We see each other. It is very

35:08

cordial. I still talk

35:10

with his mom and his sister regularly.

35:13

It feels good to

35:15

be on good terms with him. And

35:19

I met my current boyfriend,

35:22

Lucas through a mutual friend, and

35:24

he is amazing. I

35:26

feel like he gives me everything

35:29

that I need out of a relationship.

35:31

He gives me support, he gives

35:33

me a listening ear. It

35:35

feels very balanced in the relationship.

35:38

When I'm feeling anxious, he's there to

35:40

support me. When he has things that he's going

35:42

through, I can be there for him. I didn't

35:44

realize how easy a relationship

35:47

could be. I feel like I

35:49

can be much more open and honest with Lucas,

35:51

and I feel like I have been. There

35:54

are definitely times when I

35:56

get in my head or I

35:59

don't feel comfortable

36:02

being super open about

36:04

how I'm feeling. He'll ask me, and

36:07

I think that's kind of where

36:09

I struggle is. He'll ask me, and I'll

36:12

say everything's fine, and he'll ask me again,

36:14

and I can feel myself getting angry

36:17

even though he's not doing

36:19

it because he is OCD. I think I

36:21

still have those thoughts where if

36:24

somebody asked me the same question a

36:26

couple of times, I just tense

36:29

up. I think, after five and a half years of going

36:31

through that.

36:32

Are you able to in those moments, even

36:34

if you're getting annoyed, but tell

36:36

him how you feel or if you're preoccupied you're

36:38

distant, be able to share with him

36:41

where you're aunt emotionally in that moment.

36:44

We have talked about that a couple of times,

36:47

and I've kind of shared my story

36:49

with Max and how that went, so

36:52

he understands where I'm coming from, and we're

36:54

able to get to the point now where I can

36:56

say I'm really anxious. I can't talk about

36:59

it right now, you can talk about it later,

37:01

and we do when I'm a little bit more calm

37:04

or in a better mind space that

37:06

does work out really well for us in this

37:08

new relationship.

37:09

What makes you anxious.

37:12

It's not necessarily anything with the

37:14

relationship per se. Could just be

37:16

work, it could be things

37:19

with my family,

37:21

it could be just the state of the world.

37:24

And I think it's really hard for me to open

37:27

up to him in certain

37:30

ways about certain things because every

37:32

time in the past that I've opened up about my feelings,

37:34

it's either been met with rejection like

37:36

my family, or met with OCD with

37:39

Max. So it's really hard for me to trust

37:41

that I can have a

37:43

safe person to open up to.

37:45

Each of those things are all

37:48

good. Further, for a conversation

37:50

with a partner to say, you know, I'm

37:53

just thinking about, well, I'm a little anxious about something.

37:55

Let me tell you what's going on. Why

37:57

not share that with him, because

38:00

as part of your pattern is I'm

38:02

afraid to share enough

38:04

about what I feel because in the past

38:07

people haven't handled that well. I've told my parents

38:09

about who I am, and I've

38:11

gotten OCD responses from

38:14

Max. But part of you recognizes

38:16

that it's an important thing to be able to do. Why

38:20

not actually just tell them what

38:22

the thing is that you're anxious about. That's when

38:24

you would most benefit perhaps from that support

38:26

and conversation. Why have to be unanxious

38:29

before you can talk to him about what you're anxious about.

38:32

I just don't want

38:34

to be a burden on

38:37

anyone, Like my family, for instance,

38:39

they are worried about me and going

38:42

to heaven or my future, and

38:45

I just always feel like when

38:48

I do open up to people and when I'm honest with

38:50

them, that I'm just being a burden

38:53

to them.

38:53

I can see how in your mind you

38:57

felt like you were a burden to your parents

38:59

because they were going to have to quote

39:01

unquote deal with the

39:03

fact that this was going

39:06

to affect their lives, the

39:08

lives of their community, et

39:11

cetera, even though, of

39:13

course, being who you are is not a

39:15

burden. And so I

39:17

think MAX was very

39:19

convenient for you because you couldn't

39:22

possibly be a burden to someone

39:24

who has OCD. That takes

39:27

up all the space in the relationship. There's

39:29

no room for you in the relationship.

39:31

So in some ways you really resented

39:33

it, but in other ways it was incredibly

39:36

safe for you because

39:38

you couldn't possibly bring your own

39:40

stuff into that relationship with

39:43

all that was going on you could

39:46

have you chose not to, we should say, because at

39:48

the end you did, and here you are with Lucas,

39:50

who is giving you all of that space,

39:54

And on the one hand, you really crave that,

39:57

and on the other hand, you're so

40:00

comfortable with it because

40:02

you're so afraid that if

40:04

I share the truth of who I am, I

40:07

will somehow disappoint,

40:09

burden offend, be

40:12

too much.

40:13

That's exactly it. I think I'm

40:16

afraid sometimes to share how

40:18

I feel with Lucas because with

40:21

Max, he broke up with me out of the blue

40:23

and I had no idea how he was feeling. And

40:25

so I think that even amplifies

40:28

that with Lucas, because I'm

40:30

afraid that I'm going to say something wrong or

40:33

that I'm going to be too much for him, and

40:35

he's not going to want to take on that burden of

40:38

me and maybe my problems.

40:40

I tend to think that

40:43

the burden for Max in

40:46

your relationship was

40:48

that you didn't bring things up, and

40:52

I think that it became a burden because it

40:54

became all about him. And

40:58

on the one hand, I think that he wanted

41:01

to have somebody who was very supportive

41:03

of what he was going through with the OCD. But

41:05

on the other hand, I think there was

41:07

also a part of him that wanted you to

41:09

show up in the relationship, so it wasn't

41:12

all about him, and

41:14

the two of you never had the tools

41:17

to discuss things in that way. But

41:19

you have an opportunity now to

41:21

see that relationships

41:24

thrive when both people are

41:26

fully present and it's not about

41:28

one person or the other.

41:30

Yeah, I think that's very true. I think

41:33

in my mind I was supporting Max

41:36

by being patient or listening

41:39

or being there for him in

41:41

those moments, but

41:45

I never really gave him the opportunity

41:47

to do that for me, or

41:49

when I did, it wasn't fully

41:52

the truth. Maybe right.

41:53

So you have this idea that if you bring things

41:56

up, the relationship will break, and

41:58

what I'm saying is if you do I won't bring

42:00

things up, the relationship will break.

42:04

Yeah. I never thought about it that way.

42:06

And you said you're not quite sure why

42:08

Max broke up with you, But the

42:10

reality for Max was that his OCD

42:14

was practically the entire relationship.

42:16

It did take all the air out of

42:18

the room and there was no balance.

42:20

You mentioned your anxiety

42:22

and your depression, but you mentioned

42:24

them very fleetingly earlier on when we

42:27

were talking here, and I think

42:29

that's probably the representation they got in the relationship

42:31

with Max as well. They were known, but they weren't

42:33

really brought up, and so your

42:36

emotional struggles were

42:38

not there other than your

42:40

emotional struggles about Max's

42:43

emotional struggles. And so for

42:45

him, he's in a relationship with someone who's

42:48

managing his issues and

42:51

keep saying to him, this is really hard to manage. Can

42:53

you get more help because this is really really hard

42:55

for me to manage, and he doesn't get more help. But

42:57

then part of why the breakup probably came

42:59

to him most because he didn't have solutions

43:01

there. He didn't want to get more help, and he knew

43:04

that all he was hearing from you was that it's too

43:06

much, it's too much, it's too much. So he

43:08

just took the executive decision then this

43:10

is just not going to work.

43:12

Yeah, I never thought about it

43:14

that way. That makes a lot of.

43:16

Sense, And I think what we don't want to see

43:18

happen here is that there's a role reversal

43:20

where in the first relationship,

43:23

Max was having all these issues, but he wouldn't really

43:25

deal with it, wouldn't really talk about it, and

43:28

he just brought his symptoms, but he wouldn't really talk

43:30

about what was underneath it. And

43:32

we don't want to see that happen with Lucas, where Lucas

43:35

is coming to you and saying, Hey, what's going on? Talk

43:37

to me and you're not really

43:39

talking about what's happening

43:41

and what you're doing to help

43:44

manage it. You can share, hey,

43:46

I'm working on this in therapy. You don't have to tell them

43:48

all the details, but to really

43:50

be present and not feel like, well,

43:52

if I tell him, it's going to burden him

43:55

and that's just going to push him away.

43:57

Yeah. I appreciate when

44:00

he can be vulnerable and tell

44:03

me what he's going through

44:05

because he's able

44:07

to talk about it so freely, and

44:10

I really admire that. And

44:12

he's given me no reason why

44:14

I think that he

44:17

wouldn't be willing to do that for me as

44:19

well.

44:20

Can you tell us a little bit more about

44:23

what I'm going to call intrusive thoughts since

44:25

that's what Max had, The intrusive

44:27

thoughts that you have when you're with Lucas

44:29

that get in the way of you being in

44:32

this relationship in a comfortable way.

44:34

There have been times with Lucas that

44:37

he will ask me how I'm doing, and I'll

44:40

get instantly annoyed, or maybe

44:43

he's a little too much in my face and

44:45

I just don't know how to react, and so

44:47

my instant thought is to be like, this isn't going

44:50

to work or I

44:52

can't handle this.

44:53

What's an example of him being in your face?

44:55

It's literally just leaning in

44:57

for a kiss or being close close

45:01

proximity to my face, Like it's

45:03

not it's not or anything aggressive

45:05

or anything like that.

45:06

Oh, it's nice in your face, not the bad

45:09

in your face.

45:09

Right, So all of this sounds like you're

45:12

trying to protect your own

45:15

space. But

45:17

in your letter you talk about I'm worried

45:19

that the other shoe's going to drop, that

45:22

he's going to leave me. So I think you're

45:24

doing all these things to protect yourself,

45:27

like, oh, that's too close, that really nice gesture

45:29

coming over to kiss me, that that normally would feel

45:31

really good, feels a little scary

45:35

because you don't want to get too close

45:38

or too invested, because

45:40

you wrote in your letter, I'm always worried that

45:42

something will go wrong. So

45:44

can you talk more about that, because I think

45:46

that's what this is really about.

45:48

Yeah, I think that's very true. I think

45:51

I'm afraid to get too close because

45:54

I don't want to get hurt again. I'm afraid

45:58

to show Ucas the

46:00

deeper parts of me because I'm

46:03

afraid that it's

46:05

going to be met with rejection. I

46:07

even had a dream last night that

46:10

Lucas broke up with me, and I was really

46:13

upset and sad about it, and

46:15

I reached out to him today and told him

46:17

about it, and he said, I love you so much.

46:19

I wouldn't do that. But

46:22

I think those are just fears that are

46:25

just there because of being

46:28

blindsided by Max after such

46:30

a tumultuous relationship.

46:33

I think those fears are there because of being

46:35

blindsided by your parents. And

46:37

I think that there was a way that MAX

46:40

worked very well for you because it kept

46:42

you so safe to

46:45

always be in the position of you are not

46:47

making me happy, I might break up with you,

46:50

which gives you power and

46:53

keeps you from being in that vulnerable

46:56

position of you might not want

46:58

to stay with me. How could you

47:00

not want to stay with me if I put up with all

47:02

of your OCD day in and day out

47:05

for five and a half years, not

47:08

realizing that that

47:10

doesn't work for either person. And

47:14

so as you think

47:16

about this abandonment fear that

47:19

permeates your relationship with Lucas

47:22

to the point that you're dreaming of him breaking up with

47:24

you, it sounds

47:26

like getting

47:28

in touch with some of those feelings that maybe

47:30

you haven't expressed fully about

47:33

what it was like to pack up those two trash bags

47:35

and leave your house might

47:37

be really helpful now that you're in a

47:39

more balanced relationship.

47:41

Yeah, I do want to add one thing. There

47:45

was the moment where your parents

47:47

rejected you and kicked you out of the house,

47:51

and there were the thousands of moments

47:53

before you told them that you

47:55

worried that they might. So

47:58

that's why that's so impactful. Opened

48:00

once, But do you worry that it

48:02

would for probably many years

48:04

before it actually did, and then it

48:07

did, and that it's

48:09

going to leave a mark.

48:10

And there's a way when we talk about OCD

48:12

that when we imagine the

48:15

horrible thing happening, it almost

48:18

protects us. If I can imagine

48:21

Lucas breaking up with me, even

48:23

though it feels bad, at least I'm prepared

48:25

in my mind. If

48:27

I don't get too close to him at

48:30

least it won't be so bad. So

48:32

there's almost like an OCD

48:35

like process

48:37

going on with you where you're

48:39

doing everything you can to

48:41

protect yourself against what

48:43

you see is almost inevitable.

48:46

Yeah, definitely.

48:49

What is your relationship like with Max's

48:54

family? Now? You said you're still in touch

48:56

with them?

48:58

Yeah. I am really

49:00

close with his sister. I

49:02

consider her my sister. Still.

49:06

We visit together pretty

49:08

frequently, and I

49:11

still talk to his mom pretty regularly

49:13

and just check in see how she's

49:16

doing. They all still consider me a

49:18

part of their family,

49:21

and I still consider them my family.

49:23

So the catastrophe didn't happen.

49:26

No, I did not.

49:27

You thought that if you broke up you would lose this entire

49:30

family, And you have a cordial relationship

49:32

with Max and you still have this lovely

49:34

relationship with his family and

49:36

you see the dog right.

49:38

Yeah.

49:39

What about Lucas's family? What

49:41

is your relationship like with them?

49:43

He has a pretty similar

49:47

experience as me coming

49:49

out to his family, so he is not

49:51

super close with his parents

49:54

and one of his brothers.

49:56

I have met his other brother

49:59

and his in law and

50:01

they're wonderful. They're really sweet.

50:04

What has happened in the relationship with your family

50:07

since you started dating Lucas.

50:09

I still haven't told

50:11

my family that I'm dating Lucas.

50:14

I think because I

50:18

am enjoying my relationship

50:21

with Lucas and I feel like bringing

50:23

it up to my family will sort of tint

50:26

that in a way. And

50:29

I feel like my

50:32

family and I's kind of in a better place

50:34

right now because they think that I'm single,

50:37

and so in a weird

50:39

way, we're able to kind of talk

50:43

without worrying about

50:46

another partner that I might have.

50:48

So being single makes you less gay?

50:51

Well, my dad did ask me

50:53

recently, where are you with the whole

50:55

gay thing. I said, I'm not really sure

50:57

what you're asking. I'm still gay if that's

50:59

what you're at. And he said, so you

51:01

really don't think that it's a choice, And I said, no,

51:03

it's definitely not a choice. And

51:06

that was kind of the end of the conversation. But that's

51:09

how it's always been, is every time they would bring

51:11

it up to me, it was very this

51:14

is really what you're choosing, This

51:16

is against what God wants, and

51:20

this is not what we want for you in

51:22

your future.

51:24

It remains hurtful that they have to

51:26

keep telling you in a consistent,

51:29

practically OCD way. Let

51:31

us know when you're done with being gay, and you

51:34

know that it's still not okay with us, and it's

51:36

still not okay with our God and all of those

51:38

things. I mean, it's very unfortunate if it

51:41

keeps coming up.

51:42

I feel bad not telling my family

51:44

about Lucas because he is such a great person.

51:47

But they're not going to see him

51:49

the way that I see him. They're not going to see him

51:51

as a great person. They're not going to see him

51:54

as somebody who

51:57

makes me happy. They're going to see him

51:59

as somebody that's taking

52:01

me away from my

52:04

path to righteousness or God.

52:08

I think that the ways in which you have to protect yourself

52:11

from the hurt from your

52:13

parents bleeds into the way

52:15

you feel like you have to protect yourself from

52:18

Lucas, And sometimes

52:20

you conflate the two. You're holding

52:22

back with your parents because they will say hurtful

52:25

things, but you're holding back

52:27

with Lucas because you're afraid that he is

52:29

also going to reject you, and we want

52:31

to make sure that doesn't happen. We

52:38

have some advice we'd like to give you. We've been

52:40

thinking about your situation and

52:44

we've been seeing a lot of parallels between

52:47

the relationship with Max and the relationship

52:49

with Lucas, but with the roles a little bit

52:51

reversed. And

52:54

so what we'd like you to do is we'd like

52:56

you to have a conversation with Lucas

52:59

where you say to him

53:01

that even though I've told you a

53:03

lot about my relationship with Max and how much

53:05

I had to take care of him, I

53:08

think in some ways it was very convenient for

53:10

me because I didn't

53:12

really have to deal with my own anxieties

53:14

about rejection and love. And

53:18

I don't want to become the Max

53:20

to you in our relationship.

53:24

And there might be times when you come

53:27

close to me and

53:29

even though I really really want that, I

53:31

get a little bit scared and

53:35

you might feel a little bit rejected by me. And

53:38

if that happens, please

53:40

let me know, because I don't want you

53:42

to feel that I am

53:44

not wanting all of this delicious love

53:47

that you were bringing to me. And

53:50

so you're just opening the door for him to

53:52

have a dialogue about that. When

53:54

he perceives that, because he will, he'll

53:57

notice it, and

53:59

then we want you to do something about it. And

54:02

in your relationship with Max, you

54:05

said the reason that he didn't want to go to therapy

54:07

was because a lot of the treatment for OCD involves

54:10

exposure to the very thing

54:12

that makes the person anxious. We

54:15

want you to do a little bit of exposure therapy

54:17

here, and what we mean

54:19

by that is when

54:22

Lucas comes toward you and you feel a little

54:24

bit overwhelmed, it comes to kiss you and

54:26

you feel like, uh, oh, I'm feeling

54:28

a little vulnerable here. Instead

54:31

of moving away from

54:33

that, we want you to

54:35

move toward that, but we want

54:37

you to do it in a specific way.

54:39

I don't know how much you know about exposure therapy,

54:42

but typically, let's say, if somebody is trying to get

54:44

over a fear of snakes and into

54:47

the snake pit they go, and

54:49

it's like, ah, snakes, but it's all very very

54:51

passive. You know, they're just sitting there with snakes

54:53

doing what snakes do. And the thing

54:55

about anxiety is that we feel

54:57

better when we're in control. So

55:00

we want you, as part of your exposure

55:02

therapy, to lean in to

55:05

the love when it makes you a little anxious,

55:08

but to do it in a way in which you have control, which

55:10

with Lucas would look like he gets into

55:12

your face, that you actually sit

55:14

up taller or stand taller. You

55:16

put your hands on his shoulders.

55:19

You control the closeness. You bring

55:21

him in to you for

55:24

the embrace, you bring him into

55:26

you for the kiss. So you

55:28

do the exposure therapy to yourself,

55:31

but in a way that you actually have control, which

55:33

makes it easier to tolerate. And

55:36

each time he comes into your space

55:38

after that conversation and you feel yourself

55:40

having an anxious reaction or feeling

55:42

flooded or overwhelmed, you lean

55:45

in to the love and it's

55:47

exposure therapy. It's going to be hard, but

55:50

the more you do it, the quicker the anxiety

55:52

associated with it

55:55

goes down.

55:56

And what happens is the more you're exposed to

55:58

it catastrophic happens,

56:01

the more you can relax when

56:04

it happens again.

56:06

There is one more piece. You were thinking about

56:08

your parents and your relationship with

56:10

them. You wrote them the letter initially,

56:13

and we understand why it was hard

56:16

to get a word in. You Mum would quote

56:18

scripture. You know it would be

56:20

a difficult conversation to have. So let's just get all my

56:22

feelings out in an email. We think that might

56:24

be a good approach this time as well, but we think

56:26

there needs to be something communicated about. Look,

56:30

I'm in fact as offended

56:33

by your views religiously

56:36

as you are by mine, because

56:40

in my religious views,

56:42

in my philosophy, parenting

56:44

is a virtue that should surpass all and so is

56:47

unconditional love. And

56:51

I am not interested in hearing

56:53

anymore that

56:56

you think I'm going to go to tell

56:58

that you think who I am is

57:01

wrong. I am not interested

57:03

in hearing it. And if we're

57:05

to have a relationship, it has to be

57:07

one that starts at

57:09

the basic respect of who

57:12

I am as a person.

57:15

And I know you might have different feelings about it,

57:18

have them, I do not want to

57:20

hear them. And

57:23

one day I'm going to find love again and I'm going

57:25

to get married, and you are my family.

57:27

I will invite you to that

57:30

wedding, and if you want to

57:32

have a relationship with me, you should

57:34

come to it, because that's what loving

57:36

families do. They put

57:38

their differences aside to celebrate

57:41

the happiness of one another.

57:44

And that's what I'm going to expect. But

57:47

going forward, I do not want

57:50

to hear from any of you that

57:52

you have judgment about who

57:55

I am as a person.

57:57

And this is going to go to your entire family,

58:00

including your siblings. I'm thinking

58:02

about your sister who wasn't going to come

58:04

to your wedding. It's for all

58:06

of them, and what we'd

58:08

like you to do is not have

58:11

expectations around how they

58:14

respond, but

58:16

we'd like you to think about what

58:19

it feels like to be able

58:21

to say that so directly to them.

58:24

You're not asking them to change who they

58:26

are, but you're

58:28

asking them not to say to you,

58:31

change who you are. And

58:33

that's a starting point. And

58:36

so what you're asking for is reciprocity,

58:38

which you didn't have with Max because

58:41

you didn't ask for it, and we'd

58:43

like you to ask for it this time.

58:47

Yes, you're very right.

58:56

I think when he was with Max, he

58:59

found a relationship that would make him feel safe

59:01

because you wouldn't have to deal with his own issues

59:04

that he was bringing into it, but it wasn't necessarily

59:06

satisfying. And now with Lucas, he's

59:09

in a relationship that could be satisfying, but

59:11

it doesn't necessarily feel safe because

59:14

he's going to have to manage some of this

59:16

abandonment. And I

59:18

think it's going to go really well with Lucas. This week,

59:21

Lucas sounds like somebody who's really able

59:23

to offer him something that he didn't have with his parents

59:26

and didn't have with Max

59:28

in the same way, and

59:30

I think it's going to be tricky with his family.

59:32

I think it's going to go well with Lucas in

59:35

the sense that he will do it and Lucas will

59:37

respond well. I

59:39

think though, that he's still going to feel anxious, because

59:41

the idea of doing that is you keep

59:43

doing it to beat down the anxiety. But at first

59:45

the anxiety will be there, so he'll be doing the

59:47

right thing and it won't feel like he's doing the right

59:50

thing. So I just hope he can keep at it despite

59:52

that, because that's how it is. At the beginning. You're doing the

59:54

thing you need, but your insights are telling you

59:56

it's not, because that's what you've been avoiding.

59:58

And that's why we tell people do the up. Normally

1:00:00

we say listen to your gut, do what your gut says,

1:00:03

and when somebody is in this situation, we

1:00:05

say your gut is lying to you. Do the opposite.

1:00:08

I actually say, much more, your gut is lying to you

1:00:10

than I do. Follow your gut. I don't say for follow

1:00:12

your gut a lot. I always say like no, no, don't

1:00:15

listen to that. I

1:00:19

think with his parents it's going to be much

1:00:21

more problematic because I think they're

1:00:23

going to have a hard time hearing it.

1:00:25

I think they feel righteous and

1:00:28

they feel that the perspective is correct

1:00:30

and his is incorrect in every possible way.

1:00:32

And I hope he can stand up and

1:00:35

fight for what he deserves.

1:00:37

Either way, I think this is going to be a good experience

1:00:39

for him.

1:00:45

You're listening to Dear Therapists for my Heart

1:00:47

Radio. We'll be back after a short break.

1:01:02

So we heard back from Doug and we asked him

1:01:04

to do a couple of things, both of which involved

1:01:07

him taking control. So let's

1:01:09

see how that went for him.

1:01:10

Hey, Laurie and Guy. So I've

1:01:13

been working on opening up and leaning into the

1:01:15

love that Lucas has been showing me. We

1:01:17

had a really open and honest conversation

1:01:20

about how I can feel overwhelmed at times

1:01:22

when he comes too close because I'm

1:01:24

afraid of being too intimate and vulnerable

1:01:26

with him. We talked about

1:01:28

my family and I got to share with him how

1:01:30

rejected I felt by them and how I was carrying

1:01:33

a lot of those fears and anxiety into our relationship.

1:01:37

I was really nervous to have this conversation,

1:01:39

but Lucas listened and was so supportive

1:01:41

and understanding. I've also

1:01:44

been working on the exposure piece and taking

1:01:46

control in times when I'm feeling anxious.

1:01:49

One time, after having this conversation, he

1:01:52

noticed me pull away and asked if I

1:01:54

was feeling overwhelmed. Normally

1:01:56

I would have brushed those feelings aside and said

1:01:58

I was fine, But this time

1:02:01

I told him how it was feeling, and it felt

1:02:03

so good to voice that. After

1:02:05

opening up to Lucas Moore and feeling how supportive

1:02:08

and loving he was, through that, I felt

1:02:10

so much closer with him. He was also

1:02:12

able to be there for me as I worked on the second

1:02:15

part of my assignment, writing a letter

1:02:17

to my family. This part

1:02:19

was really difficult for me, and I put

1:02:21

it off as long as I could. I had

1:02:23

a really hard time being vulnerable with them

1:02:26

and sharing how their words and actions hurt

1:02:28

me again. My gut reaction

1:02:31

was to avoid the confrontation and potential

1:02:33

rejection, but I really want things

1:02:35

to change. I started off

1:02:37

by saying that I appreciated our relationship

1:02:40

and that it has gotten better over the years,

1:02:42

and that I wanted to continue building on that, but

1:02:45

that I also wanted to set some boundaries. I

1:02:48

told them I no longer wanted to hear their

1:02:50

judgment about who I am as a person,

1:02:52

and that I'm not interested in hearing any

1:02:55

more disrespectful and invalidating

1:02:57

questions or comments to

1:03:00

them. That I don't just want to be tolerated.

1:03:02

I want to be loved fully for who I am,

1:03:05

all the parts of me. I

1:03:07

felt incredibly scared to hit that send

1:03:10

button, and my anxiety was literally

1:03:12

through the roof. After I sent

1:03:14

it, Lucas gave me a big hug, a

1:03:16

kiss on the cheek, and told me how proud

1:03:18

he was of me. It did

1:03:21

feel like a huge weight had been lifted off my shoulders,

1:03:24

and it also felt really good to not

1:03:26

be alone in that moment. I

1:03:28

haven't heard back from anyone yet,

1:03:30

and even though I'm still really worried about what they'll

1:03:32

say and how they'll respond, I'm

1:03:35

hopeful that this will be the next step in having

1:03:37

a healthier relationship with my family. I

1:03:40

know moving forward, it's still going to be a difficult

1:03:43

journey for me to get to a place where

1:03:45

I feel more comfortable being vulnerable,

1:03:48

but I am committed to doing this work. Thank

1:03:50

you again, I appreciate you both.

1:03:56

What Doug has come to realize through

1:03:59

doing these exercizes is what so

1:04:01

many of our patients in therapy come to realize,

1:04:03

which is that when you try to protect

1:04:06

yourself using

1:04:08

a method that worked when you were younger, it

1:04:10

generally doesn't work when

1:04:13

you're older and you have agency.

1:04:17

And so when he started talking

1:04:19

to Lucas about feeling

1:04:21

overwhelmed what happens

1:04:23

when he becomes vulnerable, he

1:04:26

thought the world would crash down, and

1:04:28

you know, Lucas would get rid of him, because

1:04:30

that's what happened in his family. You can't talk about

1:04:32

these things. But instead Lucas

1:04:35

came closer, and not only did he come closer,

1:04:37

but he ended up supporting him

1:04:39

both in their relationship but also in

1:04:43

what he wanted to say to

1:04:45

his family. So it was really a

1:04:47

lesson in what happens when we

1:04:49

can separate out how we protect

1:04:51

ourselves as children and how that doesn't

1:04:54

really protect us but actually holds us back

1:04:56

as adults.

1:04:57

I completely agree, and I think that the

1:04:59

fear hand about sending

1:05:01

the email to his family

1:05:05

was that he knew that if

1:05:07

they responded poorly, he

1:05:09

would have to draw a line. And

1:05:12

I think that the anxiety was because he knew

1:05:14

that he had signed up for that, and I

1:05:17

believe he will if they respond

1:05:20

poorly, and I think they're likely

1:05:22

to respond poorly from what I've heard so far,

1:05:24

So I really hope if he's listening, he

1:05:28

has Lucas around him when he needs to maintain

1:05:30

that boundary, and that he does

1:05:32

so with the same conviction with which he sent

1:05:34

the email and with which he meant every word that

1:05:36

he wrote.

1:05:37

I think the reason that he was ready now to send

1:05:40

that letter with that boundary is

1:05:44

that as he becomes more

1:05:46

truthful with himself and with the relationships

1:05:49

in his life, it's hard to

1:05:51

not be truthful with these other

1:05:53

relationships in his family, and

1:05:55

he's ready to ask for that, And

1:05:58

he has the support of someone who really

1:06:00

sees the truth of who he is and is

1:06:02

there for him. And I think that makes a big difference,

1:06:05

so that no matter what his family does with that

1:06:07

letter, he can feel good that he sent

1:06:09

it. Hey,

1:06:14

fellow travelers, if you're enjoying

1:06:16

our podcast each week. Don't forget to

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subscribe for free so that you don't miss any

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and leaving a review on Apple Podcasts.

1:06:27

Your reviews really help people to find the show.

1:06:29

And thanks to your reviews and support,

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we'll be back next year with an all new

1:06:34

season of Dear Therapist Sessions that we

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can't wait to bring you now. While

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we're off taping, don't forget to catch up

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on all of the season one and season two episodes

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you missed or want to hear again.

1:06:44

And if you'd like to apply to be in session with us

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on season three, just send us an email

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to Lorian Guy at iHeartMedia

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dot com. That's l Ori

1:06:54

A. N. D. G u Y at

1:06:57

iHeartMedia dot com. You

1:06:59

can also find our email in the show notes.

1:07:02

See you back in Session soon.

1:07:05

Our executive producer is Noel Brown.

1:07:07

We're produced and edited by Mike Johns,

1:07:09

Josh Fisher, and Chris Childs. Our

1:07:12

interns are Dorit Corwin and Silver Lifton.

1:07:15

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1:07:17

our podcast Fairy Godmother Katie

1:07:19

Couric.

1:07:20

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