0:03

I'm Laurie Gottlieb. I'm the author

0:05

of Maybe You Should Talk to Someone, and I

0:07

write the Dear Therapist advice column for the

0:09

Atlantic.

0:10

And I'm Guy Wench. I'm the author of Emotional

0:13

First Aid, and I write the Dear Guy advice

0:15

column for Ted. And this is Dear

0:17

Therapists.

0:18

Each week we invite you into a real session

0:21

where we help people confront their biggest problems

0:23

and then give them actionable advice and

0:25

hear about the changes they've made in their lives.

0:28

So sit back and welcome to today's

0:30

session.

0:32

This week, a man with unprocessed

0:34

grief from his childhood struggles to

0:36

trust himself and to set boundaries in

0:38

his relationships.

0:40

I was kind of head over heels for him

0:42

at the beginning. There were a few red flags

0:44

where I started to be a little bit concerned.

0:47

I did kind of do mental gymnastics

0:50

trying to justify his lies

0:53

first.

0:54

A quick note, Dear Therapists is

0:56

for informational purposes only, does

0:58

not constitute medical or psychologe advice,

1:00

and is not a substitute for professional health

1:02

care advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always

1:05

seek the advice of your physician, mental health

1:08

professional, or other qualified health

1:10

provider with any questions you may have regarding

1:12

a medical or psychological condition.

1:15

By submitting a letter, you are agreeing to let iHeart

1:17

Media use it in part or in full, and

1:19

we may edit it for length and clarity. In

1:21

the sessions you'll hear. All names have been changed

1:23

for the privacy of our guests.

1:27

Hey Laurie, Hey guy.

1:29

So what do we have today?

1:31

So today we have a letter about relationships.

1:34

So here's the letter, Dear therapists.

1:36

My mom passed away when I was nine years

1:39

old. Even though I was very young,

1:41

I was incredibly close to her and felt

1:43

like I had a deep and special connection with her.

1:46

My family and I were with her when she died

1:49

at home, and this moment has always

1:51

stuck with me. I've never been

1:53

able to share this experience with anybody,

1:55

despite it being the most painful thing I've

1:57

gone through, and it's still something I think about

2:00

very often. I'm fortunate

2:02

to have a loving family. However, we never

2:05

really talked about my mum's death or

2:07

the impact it had on us, and I feel

2:09

that this has created an enormous amount

2:11

of distance between us all. My relationship

2:14

with my father is particularly distant and

2:16

his lack of communication throughout my life

2:18

has often left me feeling very alone.

2:21

We have also had some big clashes in the past,

2:24

including one very painful argument

2:27

regarding my mom's wedding ring and who

2:29

she left it for after she passed away. On

2:32

top of this, I've struggled to have a healthy

2:34

romantic relationship. Almost all

2:36

of the people I've had a relationship with have

2:39

cheated on me or lied, and I've

2:41

often accepted behavior which, upon reflection,

2:44

was totally unacceptable. I

2:46

know that I have some attachment issues after my

2:48

mom passed away, and I have been trying

2:50

hard to work through that, but I feel a

2:52

bit lost as to what I need to do to try and build

2:55

healthy relationships with a romantic partner,

2:57

and also my family love

3:00

to hear any advice you may have, Adam

3:03

Well.

3:03

I think it's great that Adam

3:06

is writing to us and realizes

3:09

that there might be some connection between

3:12

the unprocessed grief with his mom

3:15

and what he's struggling

3:17

with in his romantic relationships.

3:19

I agree, and I think it's interesting that he's

3:22

been unable to talk about the death

3:24

with anyone, not just with his family

3:26

who are reluctant to talk about it. But

3:28

he's not found anyone in his life, not a friend,

3:31

not a lover that he felt comfortable discussing

3:33

it with. And that's something I'm curious about. So

3:36

there's a lot we need to find out here. Let's go

3:38

and talk to him.

3:41

You're listening to Dear Therapists for my Heart

3:43

Radio. We'll be back after a short break.

3:53

I'm Laurie Gottlieb and.

3:54

I'm Guy Wench and this is Dear

3:56

Therapists. Adam.

4:01

Hi, Laurie, Hi Guy. Thank you for having

4:03

me. I really appreciate it.

4:05

You're very welcome and thank you for coming on the

4:07

show. Tell us a little bit about

4:09

yourself, just about your current life. How

4:11

old you are so we have a general picture

4:13

of you.

4:14

Okay, So I'm thirty one, I'm

4:17

single, I live

4:19

alone. I now live abroad,

4:22

originally from the UK, but

4:24

I moved away from home when I was about

4:27

eighteen, so quite young. I

4:30

went back to study, but as soon as I could,

4:33

I left the country and moved

4:35

abroad.

4:36

Tell us a little bit about

4:38

your relationships that you wrote

4:40

to us about. When was the last

4:42

time you were in a relationship, how

4:44

long do they tend to last? And what has

4:46

happened.

4:48

Sure, So, my last relationship ended

4:51

about two years ago, and

4:54

I was in that relationship for about two years.

4:57

It started fairly quickly. I

5:00

think it was within four weeks

5:02

we decided that we would

5:04

be boyfriends together. I

5:07

was kind of head over heels for him, but

5:10

at the beginning there were a few red flags

5:13

where I started to be a little bit concerned.

5:15

But because of my previous relationships where I've

5:19

been cheated on before, I decided

5:21

to just start afresh. It wasn't fair for him

5:23

to be under that same bracket, as I

5:26

thought, you know, it's a new relationship, it's

5:28

a new guy, so it's only fair to give

5:30

him a fresh start.

5:32

To what were the red flags?

5:34

Yeah, so it was there

5:36

were several things. I mean, I think

5:39

at the beginning of the relationship, I

5:41

mean, I had made very clear that I

5:44

wanted this to be a very honest relationship.

5:46

So I think upfront I said

5:49

about how important honesty was to

5:51

me. Then I noticed some little

5:53

lies coming through here and there, nothing too

5:55

big, just things like him lying

5:58

about where he was and what he was doing.

6:00

Later on, I found out that he was taking a

6:03

holiday, and he

6:05

was going on holiday with a guy.

6:08

At first, I was a little bit funny about it, but I thought,

6:11

you know, it's that they could just be friends, so

6:13

that's fine. But as time

6:15

went on, you know, I was never allowed to know

6:17

who this person was. I was never now to

6:20

meet them, So that was one big red

6:22

flag that I had,

6:24

But I just kind of brushed it aside, thinking

6:27

that, you know, it was probably

6:30

just in my head and I needed to relax a little

6:32

bit.

6:33

What strikes me is that you

6:35

said there were some red flags, nothing too

6:37

big, Just like he lied about where he

6:39

was and who he was with. Yeah,

6:41

that's not a little thing in a

6:44

relationship. So I just wonder

6:47

how you come to think of that as as a little

6:49

thing.

6:51

I think I'm just putting it into proportion

6:53

to the things that later came. Things

6:56

started to get really out of hand in terms of his

6:58

lying.

7:00

You're just starting this relationship

7:02

and he's already lying about where he is, and

7:04

then he actually refuses to give you information

7:07

about who he's going away on holiday

7:10

with. It's obviously very suspicious that he's

7:12

not willing to tell you. There's obviously something

7:14

he's hiding. How

7:16

are you able to put that aside? What were

7:18

the justifications you gave to yourself about

7:20

why you can maybe put something

7:23

that significant aside.

7:25

That's a good question, and I'm not sure how I

7:27

did it, but I did kind of do mental gymnastics

7:30

trying to justify his lies.

7:34

And I think I was really

7:37

just head over heels and really

7:39

liked him and really

7:42

believed him when he said there wasn't anything

7:44

to worry about. So I

7:46

did just put my trust in him. I tried to ignore

7:49

the fact that, you know, these kinds of things that happened to me

7:51

in the past and start afresh. I

7:53

had also been very clear from the start,

7:56

you know, before we actually agree to start

7:58

a relationship together, that was

8:00

going to be the thing

8:03

that was like, couldn't negotiate on,

8:05

Like I just wanted complete honesty, and

8:08

so I think I took him at his word, even

8:10

though there were these obvious red flags.

8:12

Did you confront him at some point

8:15

about the fact that he was being secretive and

8:17

that he had lied about his whereabouts

8:19

in the past.

8:21

I did. I did, and

8:23

it wasn't met very well. He

8:26

turned it around and made it seem like I was being

8:28

very intrusive and overly

8:31

possessive, which of

8:34

course, when somebody says that to you, you do

8:36

immediately back off, because that's not the kind

8:38

of boyfriend that I wanted to be. When

8:41

that happened, it really

8:43

made me think like, oh, okay, maybe I am overthinking

8:45

this too much. It kind of made me take a step

8:47

back and think, just okay, relaxed.

8:49

So how did things progress with this guy?

8:51

Well, it wasn't until that

8:53

holiday that he took where things really

8:56

started to become clear that he

8:58

was lying about lots of things. I

9:01

found out that he had

9:04

invited several guys to go on that holiday

9:06

actually, and whilst

9:09

he was there, he was using all these dating

9:11

apps. He later admitted that he did meet

9:13

people when he was away on holiday, and

9:16

so obviously I was devastated

9:18

by that. When I confronted him

9:20

about this, well he was still on holiday. He

9:23

immediately went into like apology

9:25

mode and it was just endless emails and

9:27

messages and I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry,

9:30

which made me think, Okay, like he's messed

9:32

up, he's messed up, and

9:35

maybe I need to rethink about

9:37

giving him a second chance.

9:39

Have you given people second chances

9:41

like that in your other relationships?

9:43

Yeah? Yeah, I have done

9:46

several times pretty much for the same

9:48

thing, lying cheating. It's

9:51

been pretty much

9:53

the same topics each time.

9:55

And given that the second chances haven't worked

9:57

out so well, what made you think I'm

10:00

going to give this guy a second chance.

10:02

I found it very, very difficult to

10:05

let go of the relationship. Like I

10:07

said, I was head over heels. I was really into

10:10

him, and I

10:13

think in my mind at that point it seemed just

10:15

like when I was younger as well. I made mistakes,

10:17

so I thought, you know, people do change,

10:20

People mess up and

10:23

then they learned from it, but he didn't.

10:25

So you know, it's interesting, Adam,

10:28

because you said you've had other

10:30

relationships where people lied and

10:32

cheated and asked for a second chance,

10:34

and you gave them the second chance, and they continued

10:36

to lie and cheat. So

10:39

then you do that a second time. And

10:42

the question is when you miss up by giving

10:44

people second chances after lying and cheating

10:46

repeatedly, do you learn from

10:48

it?

10:49

Yeah, that's interesting. I've

10:52

not really thought about it like that

10:55

before. I think more

10:58

and more I've become the very intolerant

11:00

of lying, and I've been

11:03

trying to notice

11:05

these red flags sooner than

11:07

I had before and take them more seriously.

11:10

But still I think I had that thing

11:12

in my mind which just kind of talks me out a bit

11:15

and talks me down, and yeah,

11:17

it's just not very helpful for building

11:20

a healthy relationship.

11:22

Well, I think the thing is that you start

11:24

the relationship with the right

11:26

statement. And I'm going to elaborate

11:28

a little bit. You've been hurt before. You didn't

11:30

say that part to us, but I'm assuming you've said that

11:33

to them, and therefore honesty

11:35

is very important to me. I have a zero tolerance

11:37

policy for lying. Then

11:39

you catch him on small eyes like

11:41

where he was, and the zero tolerance

11:44

turns into tolerance, and so

11:46

the messaging to him becomes I have a

11:48

zero tolerance policy for lying, but if I catch

11:50

you in a lie, I'll forgive you. And there's

11:53

the mixed message that you give him

11:55

about his untruths,

11:57

and so he knows that you really

11:59

are again but you will forgive it. And

12:02

that's not the message you want to send. The message

12:04

you want to send is I'm against it,

12:06

and you know there will be consequences

12:10

if it continues. But do you

12:12

see that despite your intention,

12:15

the message you're giving in your actions by

12:17

forgiving. It's confusing.

12:20

No, you're exactly right. It's

12:22

all kind of empty, empty

12:24

threats or empty promises of you

12:27

know, if this happened, this is how I'm

12:30

going to walk away, this is what's going to happen.

12:32

But actually, in the end, it never did.

12:35

I just kept tolerating it. Yeah.

12:37

The other thing I'm thinking about

12:40

is how it doesn't sound like he

12:42

cared much about how much

12:44

this hurt you. And

12:47

as guy was saying, you have a history

12:49

with this, he was aware of it, so

12:52

you would think he would be extra sensitive to

12:54

your needs there. And

12:57

when he did apologize and send that string of

12:59

apology because he was caught when

13:01

he was on holiday,

13:03

it was more about he wanted you to

13:06

forgive him. I didn't get the sense that it

13:08

was about I've really hurt

13:10

you, I've really betrayed your trust. I

13:12

know this is going to be really hard to repair.

13:16

This must have been devastating for you.

13:18

That's exactly right. And later on,

13:20

when there were all these other things that came out,

13:22

the same thing happened where I'd get endless

13:24

messages and endless emails and it

13:28

was a lot of words, but there wasn't

13:30

much meaning behind it. There was a lot

13:32

of you know, I even

13:35

said to him at one point. You know, there's a difference

13:37

between saying sorry and an apology.

13:39

You know, anybody can say sorry, but an apology

13:41

is really sort of taking time

13:44

to think about what you did, how much it

13:46

hurt, and how to move forwards. And

13:48

there was none of that.

13:50

Have you had any relationships, even if short,

13:53

that you would consider successful and that maybe

13:55

it didn't work out, it just didn't, you know, make

13:58

the leap from infatuation to love or some but

14:01

that there was honesty, there was good communication, you

14:03

felt heard, scene supported. Did

14:05

you have any experiences like that?

14:07

Yeah? Actually, after my last

14:10

relationship, the one that was pretty much a

14:12

disaster, about seven

14:14

months later, I decided to try dating

14:16

again and I met somebody who was very

14:20

nice and he had also been in

14:23

the same situation as I had

14:25

been. His ex boyfriend had cheated a lot and

14:27

treated him quite badly, so we kind

14:29

of bonded over that experience. And

14:32

it was such a different experience from

14:34

with my ex. There was just this feeling

14:36

of calm. There wasn't this feeling of

14:38

secrecy or things being hidden, and

14:41

it didn't last very long. It was only about

14:43

four maybe five months and

14:45

he moved away, So it ended purely

14:47

because of that. Yeah, that was like a big

14:50

shock to the system, because you

14:53

know, while it was very positive, there

14:55

was a piece of me that was thinking things

14:58

are going a little bit too smoothly. You

15:00

know, when is something gonna come

15:03

up, or when is this big surprise going to happen,

15:05

because it's bound to happen again.

15:07

Right when you said that there was this feeling of calm,

15:10

I was wondering if there was also a feeling

15:12

of when is the other shoe going to drop? This

15:14

feeling of constant, low

15:16

level.

15:17

Dread exactly

15:19

exactly that was the

15:21

fear. I didn't act upon it.

15:24

I wasn't questioning or asking all these

15:26

things. I kind of just decided to go

15:29

of the flow and see how it went. But

15:31

there was that feeling of things

15:33

are going a little too well. And I've

15:35

been here before where things just seemed

15:37

great. But looking back,

15:40

I think it really was just

15:42

that we were able to bond over that experience

15:45

and just knowing that's

15:47

sort of this unspoken thing between us

15:49

that we wouldn't ever do that to each other.

15:52

Did you know from the beginning that he was going to move

15:54

away, and if you didn't, was that upsetting

15:56

to you?

15:58

It was upsetting, but he

16:00

was moving away to pursue his career, and

16:04

so I said to him, like, I fully support that. You've got

16:06

to do what's right for you in your life right now.

16:09

It was very sad,

16:13

though, because I think we were reaching the point where

16:17

we were going to be together. He had met my

16:19

friends, I'd met his friends, which was a big thing

16:21

for me, and things

16:24

just felt good. And

16:27

the way that he spoke to me, the way

16:29

he treated me, was just something that I hadn't

16:31

experienced in a long time. So it

16:34

was sad to say goodbye

16:36

to that.

16:37

And so was there any conversation about

16:39

maybe finding a way to stay together,

16:41

like you going to where he was,

16:44

or doing a long distance relationship, or ultimately

16:46

figuring out a way that you could

16:48

be in the same place together given how well

16:51

it was going for both of you.

16:53

One of my friends had brought that up, but at the

16:55

time it just didn't seem viable.

16:57

I have a business here, so I wasn't able to and

17:01

you know, he was studying a

17:04

new career, so you

17:06

know he was going to be meeting lots of new people and going

17:08

to be very busy, and only

17:10

four months that would be we had been together, so

17:12

it seemed it would be a little bit too

17:15

quick to make that step forwards. You

17:17

know, could we move to the same country

17:19

together, could we even live together? You know, it

17:22

seemed a little bit too fast, and it

17:25

felt quite natural just

17:27

to let it go and say

17:29

goodbye.

17:30

That ended maybe about a year and a half ago.

17:33

Yes, that's right, Adam.

17:35

What's so encouraging there is that small,

17:37

short relationship gave you a taste

17:40

of what it should feel like when you don't have to

17:42

be anxious and worried and checking

17:45

up and not getting information and catching

17:47

small discrepancies and truth

17:49

and those kinds of things. When someone's

17:52

communicative and can show up

17:54

for you and has the same priorities and values

17:56

that you do in terms of honesty and cheating,

17:59

you got to take of that. I'm

18:01

curious, since then, then, have you

18:03

been able to keep

18:06

that taste going in

18:08

your latest elections of people you

18:10

dated?

18:11

Well, since him, I haven't dated

18:14

anybody. And you

18:16

know, after that relationship, I kind

18:18

of made the choice that no, I think

18:20

I just need to take time and be with myself,

18:23

and that is kind of extended into you

18:25

know, I'm single, I don't need to have anybody.

18:28

But I think part of it is a bit worried that,

18:32

you know, I'm going to find somebody again, and

18:34

this whole cycle of lying and

18:37

cheating is going to thought again,

18:39

and I just don't have the energy for

18:42

that anymore. It's just too emotionally draining.

18:44

I want to just go back to my question from earlier.

18:46

So were only together four months and he

18:49

was leaving to go change

18:51

careers. So he must have known at

18:54

some point in those four months,

18:56

pretty early on that he would be leaving,

18:59

right.

19:00

Yeah, that's interesting actually, because things

19:03

were going incredibly well, and

19:05

towards the end, I noticed he

19:08

started to distance himself quite quickly

19:10

compared to how close we were. He

19:12

distanced himself quite quickly. So

19:15

I did confront him and ask him

19:17

like, what is going on, Like are you,

19:19

you know, changing your mind about us? And that's

19:21

when he told me that he was leaving. And he also

19:24

thought it was a good idea that we kind of pumped

19:26

the brakes considering that he would be leaving.

19:29

But here's another example of

19:31

even though he didn't cheat on you,

19:34

there seemed to be open lines of communications

19:37

compared to your other relationships.

19:40

This was a big omission that

19:43

he had this thing going on that he

19:45

was going to be leaving, and instead of telling

19:48

you that, he just pulled

19:50

back and then you

19:52

had to confront him. And then he was honest

19:54

with you about what was happening, but

19:56

he wasn't proactive about coming to you and

19:58

saying here's what's happening. So

20:02

I think when you talk about this year

20:04

and a half of feeling like, well, I don't

20:07

need anyone, it sounds

20:09

like from a very young age you've been

20:11

quite lonely. Your mother died

20:13

when you were nine, your family

20:15

didn't talk about it, You've

20:17

had some difficulty with your father, and

20:21

you've had these relationships that

20:23

have been very distressing. And

20:25

I can see why it

20:27

might feel safer to

20:30

say I would rather be

20:33

self sufficient than

20:35

acknowledge my desire to

20:38

have a partner. But

20:40

I think you wrote to us because you

20:43

do have a desire to.

20:44

Have a partner.

20:45

You just want to have a partner in a way that

20:47

you haven't quite experienced yet

20:49

and want to figure out how to do that. And

20:52

so I think when we talk about honesty, let's

20:54

start with honesty towards yourself,

20:58

which is, it'll be really important for

21:00

you to be honest with yourself that

21:03

you do have this desire that you are

21:05

lonely, that you would like to have a

21:08

satisfying, mutually fulfilling,

21:11

trusting relationship. When

21:14

other people lie to us, sometimes we end

21:16

up lying to ourselves. It just becomes

21:19

such a part of the atmosphere

21:21

that there's just nobody acknowledging

21:23

the truth. So I want if anyone's going to

21:25

be honest with you, I want you to be honest

21:28

with you.

21:28

Yeah, now I think you're right. I

21:30

think I noticed that in hindsight

21:33

afterwards with my ex that there

21:36

were so many red flags at one point,

21:38

and I was just turning a blind eye,

21:41

and I asked myself why I was

21:43

doing that. I don't think I realized at the time

21:45

I was lying to myself that

21:47

these things weren't really happening

21:49

when it was quite obvious that

21:52

they were.

21:53

And so it's interesting there, Adam, because two

21:55

things that are important to you, honesty

21:58

and trust, are the things

22:00

you need to repair within yourself in a way.

22:03

The honesty, as Laur just explained,

22:06

and the trust as well, and you to

22:08

trust yourself means that when you say

22:11

I won't accept something, you

22:13

indeed won't and you won't turn a blind

22:15

eye to so many incidences of that

22:17

very thing that you said you won't accept.

22:20

When you set a standard for yourself

22:22

that then you reflect to the other person, But

22:25

then you don't maintain that standard, you

22:27

begin to lose trust in yourself

22:29

as well. So both honesty and

22:32

trust are things you need to repair within

22:34

yourself in your own internal

22:36

dialogue before you can repair

22:39

them outside.

22:41

I have been avoiding it, I think, deep down,

22:43

if I ask myself, it has been more about

22:45

me avoiding being hurt. And

22:48

there are a lot of excuses as to why, you know,

22:50

my career, I'm too busy, I

22:53

this, that and the other, But actually I think it's

22:55

those are all just excuses.

22:57

Can we hear a little bit more about

23:00

where some of this might have started.

23:03

Can we hear a little bit more about what happened

23:05

when you were nine?

23:08

Yeah? So my mom

23:10

passed away when I was nine years old.

23:13

She had cancer. She

23:15

was diagnosed when I was about four

23:18

years old, but of course I

23:20

wasn't really aware of what was going on until

23:24

I was about seven eight.

23:26

That's when I really started to

23:28

get a deeper understanding of her

23:30

illness and what that meant.

23:33

You got a deeper understanding because

23:36

your parents communicated that to

23:38

you, or because you just intuited

23:41

it from watching what was going on around

23:43

you.

23:44

Both, I think both. My dad was very

23:46

honest with us, especially towards the end.

23:49

We would have family meetings where we would sit

23:51

down and he would tell us, you

23:53

know, the

23:56

condition that my mom was in. But

23:58

also before that, I would notice

24:01

that I spent so much of my time

24:03

with her as a kid, and there are a lot

24:05

of times where I could see that she was just really

24:07

really struggling. And at school as well.

24:09

I mean all the teachers knew as well, so they

24:11

would pull me aside sometimes and

24:14

kind of try and get me to talk about it or ask me

24:16

if I'm okay. So there was just a

24:18

lot of things that I noticed. My

24:20

dad did, like speak to us very honestly

24:23

about what was going

24:25

to happen.

24:26

What about your mom, did she speak to you about

24:28

what was happening?

24:30

No, that's a good question. I think actually

24:32

in

24:35

all of these family meetings, I think my mom

24:37

found it probably too difficult to be there.

24:40

You know, I have two sisters, and

24:42

I think she probably thought it

24:44

was going to be too difficult to see our reaction

24:47

when we were told that she

24:49

was dying and that, you know, there was nothing

24:51

that could be done to stop

24:53

that.

24:54

I'm sure there was a period when she thought that

24:58

she might be able to get through

25:00

the cancer. Did she ever

25:03

say to you, hey, I'm sick,

25:05

but we're treating it, and you

25:08

know, we're hoping it's going to be okay.

25:10

It just was never acknowledged that she was sick

25:13

by her.

25:15

I have no memories really

25:17

of her talking about it.

25:19

I remember when she was, you

25:21

know, in her last few days,

25:25

she spoke to us because we were

25:28

with her, and you know,

25:30

she said that she didn't want us to be upset about what

25:32

was happening. Other than that, I don't

25:34

have any memories of her, you

25:36

know, actively talking about it with

25:39

us. I think she probably tried to

25:43

avoid talking about it as much as possible.

25:46

I can understand why, as

25:49

your mother, it must have been so painful

25:51

for her to imagine how upsetting

25:53

it would be for you and your sisters

25:55

to lose her. But the message

25:58

that she gave trying to protect you, was

26:01

don't be upset about this incredibly

26:04

life changing, upsetting thing. And

26:06

I'm thinking about how you started

26:09

the conversation today saying, yeah, he didn't

26:11

tell me where he was and he was not truthful

26:14

about that, but it was just small things. I wasn't

26:16

really upset. So this idea

26:20

that you're not supposed to be

26:22

upset about something that

26:24

is incredibly upsetting has

26:29

lived inside of you for quite

26:31

a long time. She

26:33

wasn't saying, I know this is going to be really

26:36

upsetting. I love you so much. It's

26:38

so painful to know that I'm not going

26:40

to be here for you. It's

26:42

okay, don't be upset, but I'm dying, but

26:45

don't be upset. And I

26:47

understand her intention was loving,

26:51

but the message is something that you

26:53

seem to keep living out in your relationships.

26:56

Yeah, it's interesting. With many

26:59

different things, that's been the case where I,

27:02

you know, something might be quite painful, and

27:06

I don't give it the

27:08

space that it probably needs, and I

27:10

do minimize it and I avoid talking

27:13

about it with lots of things. But I

27:15

mean, especially you know, the topic

27:17

of my mom I've never

27:20

really shared it with anybody,

27:23

even like my close relationships. It's something

27:25

that I feel like I

27:27

shouldn't burden them with that. It's

27:30

something that people don't need to hear. It's

27:32

a lot to take in, So

27:35

I just don't.

27:36

But that there is the legacy of

27:40

that last wish of your mom, don't be upset,

27:44

And I think that you internalize that to mean

27:47

that your feelings can be a burden to

27:50

other people. And I'm

27:52

wondering that was your mom. You mentioned

27:54

that teachers pulled you out to check

27:56

in and see how you were doing because they knew

27:58

what was going on. But

28:00

in your family, in these family meetings,

28:03

in one on ones with your dad or

28:05

your sisters, was there any discussion

28:07

of how you felt, not just

28:09

what was going on, but how you felt

28:11

about what was going on. Was that something that

28:14

was discussed in the family.

28:16

No, from my memory, no, it

28:18

was more about the things

28:21

that were happening and what will happen. We

28:24

didn't actually talk much about

28:26

how we felt, you know, before,

28:28

during, and after, we never

28:30

really had that discussion.

28:34

Have you ever tried in your family since

28:38

to have a talk with anyone, whether your sisters

28:41

or your dad, about how

28:43

you felt about your mom dying

28:45

when you were so young, No, we

28:47

haven't.

28:48

You know, when it comes to my

28:50

mom's birthday and her death anniversary.

28:53

We were all share a message saying that we're

28:55

thinking about her. That's

28:57

as deep as it's gone. I

29:00

mean, when we're all together,

29:02

we might share a couple of memories here

29:04

and there, but we never talked about the actual

29:06

experience of what we went through as

29:09

a family.

29:11

How old were your sisters when

29:13

your mom died?

29:14

I was nine. I had one sister

29:17

that was eleven and thirteen, So.

29:19

You were really the youngest and the

29:22

least able probably to know

29:25

how to talk about what was going on.

29:27

Yeah.

29:28

Yeah, so you're nine years old and

29:31

your mom passes away. What

29:34

was the grieving like for you? We were to see

29:36

you then, what would we be seeing that was going

29:38

on with you? So you weren't talking about how you felt,

29:40

but how were you managing?

29:42

What did it look like to see you managing

29:45

in the aftermath?

29:47

When my dad told

29:49

us that she was going to die, that was a

29:52

moment that we all broke down

29:54

as a family. And

29:58

also the night that she did, she

30:00

died at home. She decided she wanted to be

30:02

at home for her last few days. I

30:05

mean I was hysterically

30:07

crying watching it happen. In

30:09

front of me, and

30:12

I think the following days. I mean I

30:14

remember bits and pieces, but a lot of it is just

30:16

kind of blank. I mean, I know that I

30:18

was really hurt and really upset,

30:22

but as very little that I remember about what

30:24

happened after that she died.

30:27

When you got the news that your mother was going

30:29

to die, and you said you broke down and

30:31

were crying, was there

30:33

anyone there to comfort you? What

30:35

happened to that moment?

30:37

I remember it quite clearly, and we were

30:39

all sat in different places in our living

30:41

room, and I think we all just

30:44

broke down. We didn't

30:46

know come together or embrace each other

30:48

or anything like that. We all kind of just sat in our

30:50

own place and cried

30:53

separately.

30:54

And no one came and hugged you or

30:56

tried to comfort you in any way.

31:00

I'm sure my dad maybe

31:02

did at some point, but that wasn't something

31:04

that he really did too much from

31:06

my childhood. He didn't really hug and.

31:08

Once you got that news, your

31:11

mom wasn't in the room when that news

31:13

was delivered to you, So did

31:15

everybody just not acknowledge

31:18

it to your mom? Meaning nobody said,

31:20

hey, mom, we're

31:22

so sad. Dad told us that you're

31:24

going to die, so you just carried

31:27

on with your mom as

31:29

if things were normal. Nobody

31:31

acknowledged that this news had been delivered

31:34

to the three of you.

31:35

No.

31:36

No, So there's something that you

31:39

learned there very young, which

31:41

is you can have huge feelings

31:45

for really good reason, and

31:48

you have to carry

31:50

them by yourself. You don't

31:52

share them with people. People don't ask you about

31:55

them, you don't ask other people who you know are

31:57

having similar feelings about theirs.

32:00

This idea of you have

32:02

to go on as if things

32:04

are normal. And I'm saying

32:06

that in that way because it's a bit the

32:09

rationalization you had about

32:12

the cheating with the

32:14

longer relationship, which is that

32:17

there was a part of you that just wanted to go on as if things

32:19

were normal. You had to

32:21

learn how to compartmentalize

32:24

or put aside your feelings or just sit with

32:26

them yourself without being able to share them

32:28

from a really young age. You've

32:30

gotten really good at it, at being

32:32

able to sit with big feelings and

32:35

not have them validated by anyone,

32:38

and then you end up questioning their

32:40

validity because if

32:43

you couldn't even get validation for

32:45

how horrible and difficult

32:47

it was when your mom was dying

32:49

and then died in the home and in front

32:51

of you, and that couldn't get validated

32:54

externally, verbally or

32:56

in other kinds of ways. Then

32:59

that's the legacy that you kind of bring

33:01

forth. The idea of my feelings won't

33:03

get validated, there's no point

33:05

in really talking about them too much.

33:09

Yeah. Yeah. It

33:11

wasn't until quite recently

33:14

that somebody I've been

33:16

doing therapy as well, that

33:20

I was asked, how who

33:22

do you share this stuff with? Who do you share

33:24

these memories with about your mom

33:26

or that experience? And it was

33:28

only then that I kind of looked back

33:30

and I thought, for over

33:33

twenty years, I haven't shared

33:35

it with anybody. You know, there are very specific

33:37

things about that experience

33:40

which even the closest

33:42

people in my life, I'd never shared that

33:44

with them at all.

33:47

Can you tell us a little bit about what

33:50

happened between you and your dad since then?

33:53

Did your father remarry or was it

33:55

you and your sisters and your dad after that?

33:58

Yeah, so my family's a little bit complicated.

34:01

He didn't remarry, but

34:03

he was in a very long term

34:05

relationship. I think when

34:08

I was about eleven he got into a new

34:10

relationship and

34:12

they were together for about ten years.

34:15

They broke up in the end. So

34:17

she was a big part of

34:19

my life growing up, but she didn't

34:22

have much experience with kids. She kind

34:24

of just got thrown in with

34:27

three teenagers at that point.

34:28

When she moved in, did the house still

34:31

have the presence of your mom and it meaning

34:34

there was still pictures of for

34:36

you kids, so that both things

34:38

could co exist. There's the memory

34:40

of your mom and then there's this new person

34:43

in the house. Was there any kind of presence

34:45

of your mom that continued in the house

34:47

after she died?

34:49

You know, when she moved in,

34:52

a lot did change. A lot changed quite

34:54

quickly. You know, the color of the

34:56

walls, you know the decorations,

34:58

and it was a very very different dial to what

35:00

we had before. There

35:03

were a few pictures

35:06

I think of my mum in the

35:08

house, but not many, not

35:10

many at all.

35:11

What was that like for you when she moves

35:14

in and the house changes, because

35:17

as kids, that often feels like

35:20

a bit of the betrayal in terms of your mom

35:22

or being replaced, et cetera. Do you remember

35:25

how you felt about her moving

35:27

in and about the I'm going to guess

35:29

that nobody asked you how you felt about her moving

35:31

in. But correct me if that's incorrect.

35:33

But do you remember how you felt about her moving

35:36

in and those changes?

35:37

No, you're right, I don't think anybody did ask me.

35:39

But it did feel like a betrayal.

35:41

I don't think I have a voice that it

35:44

felt like a lot of my mum's

35:46

essence was being quite

35:49

like literally being painted over, you know. And

35:53

yeah, it was sad. It was sad to see these

35:56

things that you know, I

35:58

considered a a home

36:01

be changed now. It was quite

36:03

confusing as well.

36:06

There wasn't a lot of awareness

36:08

of how having

36:12

a connection to your mom would be

36:14

important to the kids in

36:16

the house. It

36:18

seems like not only were you not asked about

36:21

it, but there was just a lack of awareness

36:23

that there might even be feelings about it.

36:27

Yeah, yeah, I think because

36:30

it wasn't something that we talked about.

36:32

For me, it just seemed somewhat

36:35

normal, and you

36:39

know, with somebody else moving into the house,

36:42

it was already a big change. It

36:44

was like a big change to the way that we did things

36:46

and our schedules. And it was also

36:48

at the point of time in my life

36:50

where I was changing as well as changing

36:53

school, and all these new things were happening. It

36:56

was overwhelming, and it was very

36:58

little discussion about what was going

37:00

on.

37:01

Did you have friends at school at that time.

37:04

I had one good friend at the time

37:06

when I was quite young. I mean,

37:08

a lot of my friends knew that my mom

37:10

had passed away, but it was never something

37:13

that we talked about.

37:15

You said that you left home

37:18

and home being home and country when

37:21

you were really young. It sounded

37:23

a little bit like you were in a hurry

37:25

to lead. Tell me if that's the case, and

37:27

tell me, if so, why you were in a

37:30

hurry to leave.

37:31

No, you're right, it was pretty much as soon

37:33

as I turned eighteen, getting on a plane

37:36

and going halfway across the world.

37:38

I think there was just a lot about my

37:41

home life which I wasn't very happy about.

37:43

I did feel alone. I don't think at that point

37:45

I had many people in my

37:47

life that I would have considered close. It

37:50

just made sense to me to get up and

37:53

completely change the environment and to

37:56

see what happened. And

37:58

in many ways it was very good. I made lots of

38:00

really close friends by doing that and had

38:02

lots of great experiences. But

38:05

You're right, it was a get up and go as

38:07

quickly as I could.

38:08

You talked a little bit in your letter about the

38:10

struggles that you've had with your dad. Can you

38:12

tell us about those.

38:14

Yeah. From a young age, I

38:17

was very close with my mom, and I always

38:21

was a little bit scared of

38:23

my dad, not because he was, you

38:25

know, a bad guy or anything. It was just, you

38:28

know, sometimes he could lose his temper and I found

38:30

that a little bit scary, and

38:32

so from a young age, I was always quite

38:34

kept my distance from him and was spent

38:37

all my time with my mom. After

38:40

my mom passed away, we did spend

38:42

time together, and we

38:44

would have some pretty big arguments

38:47

as well. We had like a few big blowouts.

38:50

Even up until recently, we've had

38:52

some huge arguments.

38:55

You know. There certainly been times where I've

38:58

been the instigator or pushing

39:00

his buttons, but I think

39:03

a lot of them has also been him unfairly

39:06

being angry at me over something

39:08

and even

39:11

afterwards not quite getting an

39:13

apology. It's kind of the same thing where it's

39:15

a sorry, but it's not really a deep

39:17

apology about what happened and what went

39:20

wrong.

39:21

I'm just noticing how you minimize

39:23

his anger. You

39:25

said, well, I kind of avoided

39:28

him when I was younger because he had a little

39:30

bit of a temper. You know, a temper

39:32

from an adult when you're young

39:35

and small is incredibly scary,

39:38

very frightening to see an adult

39:41

with that big kind of rage,

39:44

even if other times he's very

39:46

loving and kind. I

39:48

just want you to notice how much you minimize

39:51

the experiences that happened to you

39:54

that elicits some kind of emotion

39:57

in you, like fear

40:00

or sadness, or

40:03

even your own anger at your boyfriend

40:05

for cheating, or at your father for being angry

40:07

with you. These external things

40:09

get minimized, and then you

40:12

don't allow yourself to feel your feelings

40:15

because you're not really acknowledging

40:17

how these things are affecting you.

40:21

Yeah, it's interesting. A friend actually pointed

40:24

that out to me not too long ago, where they

40:26

said, you know, you, even

40:29

when you're telling somebody

40:32

about something bad that happened, you always kind

40:34

of give a little clause

40:36

at the beginning at the end, where for

40:38

example, with my ex, I would say, you know, I wasn't

40:41

a perfect boyfriend either, so

40:43

obviously I didn't do anything to the same

40:46

levels as you did, but there would always be

40:48

some kind of bookended by these things

40:50

about myself.

40:53

You mentioned in your letter an incident

40:56

with your mom's wedding

40:59

and that was a big dispute with your dad

41:02

who that would be left for. Can you tell us about

41:04

what happened there?

41:06

Yeah, it was all quite dramatic. My

41:09

elder sister she when she got married,

41:11

my dad decided to give

41:14

her the wedding ring, and my brother

41:16

in law at the time was very gracious. He

41:18

came to me and my other sister and asked if

41:20

we felt okay with the ring

41:22

going towards my elder sister. I

41:25

was totally fine with it. I felt very happy that

41:28

it would go to her and she was going to start this family

41:30

and it was going to be great. But

41:33

a few weeks later I got an email

41:35

from my auntie and

41:37

she was the one who had been taking care of the ring,

41:40

and the email was worded

41:43

in such a way that made me question why she was

41:45

sending this email. And she asked

41:47

me if I was sure

41:49

that I was okay with the ring going

41:52

to my sister, and

41:55

I said, of course, why would I have a problem,

41:58

And she told me, well, actually, Mom asked

42:01

me to keep the ring for you for when

42:03

you were ready to get married. The ring was

42:05

kept in the photo frame of a picture of me and my

42:08

mom. I started to question

42:10

a lot of things as well, like it makes

42:12

sense that it went to my auntie rather than my dad because

42:15

he's so disorganized and you

42:17

know, has a terrible memory. And

42:21

a friend pointed out as well that actually, it

42:23

kind of makes sense that you'd leave it to the boy in

42:26

the family because they would probably

42:28

use it to propose. So I decided,

42:30

with no intention of trying to get the ring at

42:33

all, to talk

42:35

to my dad about it. And

42:38

I started the conversation by saying, first

42:42

of all, that this has nothing to do with like the

42:44

thing, like I don't want to get anything

42:47

from this, but also it was super

42:49

important that there were no arguments in the family

42:51

about this, and he

42:53

agreed to that. And when I started

42:56

to tell him what my auntie had told me, he

42:58

just immediately shut it down. He

43:01

said, no, there was no way that my mom would

43:03

have left me the ring, and

43:05

that if I was so desperate for a ring,

43:08

that I could have his wedding ring after he

43:10

died. And at that point I just I

43:12

think I just hung up the phone and he

43:15

didn't keep the promise. He brought it up with my auntie

43:17

and they had a falling

43:19

out over it as well. Luckily on

43:22

good terms now, but I think at the time it was quite

43:24

heated.

43:25

There was something so moving

43:28

to hear that your

43:31

mom thought so much

43:33

about it that she left

43:36

it for you, with this picture of her

43:38

and you together, gave it to her

43:40

sister, knowing her husband was disorganized

43:42

for the one day, years in the

43:44

future, years and years in the future. From where

43:46

she was. You might want to

43:49

propose, and you might want the ring. What

43:52

was it like for you to find out that she had

43:55

given such thought to it, that she had asked

43:58

to do that that your aunt had kept for so

44:00

many years. What was that like to hear

44:02

that?

44:04

It was such a huge

44:06

shock that nobody had ever mentioned

44:08

this to me. And

44:11

on some level it felt

44:14

like I had communicated with

44:16

my mom all this time after she had

44:18

passed away. It felt like she

44:21

had sent me a message. I think

44:23

I spent a long time just crying,

44:26

because it really did feel like after all that time,

44:28

we still had that special

44:31

connection that I had when I was a

44:33

kid, and that she was thinking

44:35

about me so far ahead and

44:38

thinking about all these things that I would do in my life.

44:42

So yeah, it was incredibly meaningful.

44:45

But then again, on the other hand, it

44:48

felt like, well, is this real like because

44:50

apparently it's not. According to my

44:52

dad.

44:53

It sounds like the experience

44:56

that you have repeatedly with people

44:58

when you confront them with something that you know and

45:01

they tell you that that's not what's happening. So

45:04

you say, hey, you going on holiday.

45:06

This doesn't sound right. Oh, no, you're

45:08

being paranoid. So I

45:11

think that you do know a

45:13

lot, but you've

45:16

had this experience repeatedly of

45:18

being told that what you know is not

45:20

true, and that

45:22

can be incredibly confusing

45:24

and it can really get in the way of trusting

45:26

yourself. And

45:28

I'm so glad to hear that you were able

45:31

to feel when you

45:33

were told that your mom had left this to

45:35

you and that beautiful story. I was tearing

45:38

up hearing that part about the photo and

45:40

how you were nine years old and she thought,

45:42

I can't be there for him, but

45:45

I'm going to connect with him in this way

45:48

that I have him in mind, and I want him to

45:50

know that I have him in mind. That's

45:53

so lovely and you were able

45:56

to feel that, and then you went

45:58

to your father and he denied that those were

46:00

the facts. But what he couldn't deny was

46:03

your experience. And that's

46:05

the part I want you to hold on to. Nobody

46:08

can take your experience away from you unless

46:11

you let that. And it sounds

46:13

like in your relationships you often let people

46:15

take your experience away from you. I'm

46:18

feeling this, but no, I'm not going to feel this

46:20

because they're telling me this other thing.

46:24

Yeah, that sounds

46:26

pretty right to me. It's in

46:29

many different aspects. I feel like I'm often

46:32

being told that, no, it's not that way, it's

46:34

this way, And like you

46:36

said, it's very confusing and very disorientating,

46:39

and it's hard to know which way is up.

46:42

Are you dating now? Did you say?

46:44

Are you still on the shelf with that?

46:47

I have a dating app, and

46:52

you know, I talk to people here and there, and

46:55

on occasion, I might talk to somebody that I think,

46:57

Oh, this person's interesting, and

47:00

then when it gets to the point of okay,

47:02

let's meet up, I generally

47:06

make excuses. I just think, like, oh,

47:08

I just now, it's not a good

47:10

time. There's a lot going on and it

47:13

never gets to the point where I go on

47:15

a date.

47:17

I just go back to one thing with your aunt.

47:20

So when she told you this, you

47:23

said, you've really never talked about your mom's death

47:25

with anyone. Was

47:27

there an opening there to talk with

47:30

your aunt about your mom's death?

47:34

You know, recently I did

47:37

bring something up about my mom, and

47:41

for me, I felt like I had said a little

47:43

bit too much about how

47:46

I felt growing up, and this was

47:48

all done by message, so it wasn't a great medium

47:50

to do it. And it wasn't until the

47:52

next day, I think she replied saying like,

47:54

oh that, you know, you've given me a lot to think about,

47:57

you know, just talking about my experiences as a kid,

48:00

and that made it immediately made

48:02

me feel like, oh, I've shared too much.

48:05

I shouldn't have said that.

48:06

What is it you said?

48:07

I think it was that

48:09

our family would have benefited from therapy

48:12

like family therapy, that we never

48:14

spoke about it, and I understood that

48:18

it was probably because we were all in pain,

48:21

I think, I said. I don't think it's as a

48:23

coincidence that I and actually

48:25

my other sister moved halfway across the world

48:29

as soon as we could. I think there was something

48:31

going on with us that that

48:34

made us want to leave as quickly as we could.

48:36

And that's what your aunt said. You're giving

48:38

me a lot to think about because

48:40

there's a bit of an invitation in what you're

48:42

saying to her to have a conversation.

48:45

It made me feel like I

48:47

said just a little bit too much, that perhaps

48:49

I was saying that she wasn't

48:52

there enough for us as kids. I

48:54

think maybe she started to feel a little bit

48:56

guilty that she hadn't been there

48:58

enough to support us.

49:02

I might be wrong, This is just coming from

49:04

what I think, but it made

49:07

me feel like, Okay, this is not something I

49:09

can keep talking about with her. I didn't

49:11

want to make her feel any guilt or

49:13

any burden.

49:16

So we're back to burden again. Guy had said

49:18

that your note was maybe

49:20

an invitation, but I think that she

49:23

in her response was offering you an

49:25

invitation too. She

49:28

wasn't saying everybody did the best they

49:30

could, or she didn't not respond.

49:32

She said, this has given me a lot to think about,

49:35

which is very open ended, and it makes

49:37

me feel like there could

49:40

have been a potential opening there. But then your

49:43

younger feelings came in of I don't

49:46

want to be a burden. Don't

49:48

be upset. Everybody

49:51

did the best they could. However, you justify

49:53

it to yourself. You know, I don't want to bring

49:55

up with my boyfriends that they're

49:58

cheating or lying because I don't want to burden

50:00

people with my emotional

50:03

reaction. That's

50:05

really interesting to me

50:08

how you interpret something

50:10

very differently from the way that I'm hearing it,

50:12

not being in your experience. You

50:16

interpret it as, oh, I said too much, I

50:18

was a burden. She must feel accused. You

50:20

create all these stories around it. You just

50:22

don't know if those stories are there.

50:24

Yeah, that's interesting. I never thought of her

50:27

response in that light,

50:30

and now you say it,

50:31

it makes a lot more sense

50:33

that she was. It was more of a positive.

50:36

I think that she was oneting to take

50:39

some time to think about what I said.

50:40

The thing that stops you from

50:42

having these conversations different

50:46

feelings of yes, my feelings will be

50:48

a burden, or the other person might not

50:51

want to But any kind of interpretation

50:53

always leads to the same path of so

50:55

let's not have these kinds of conversations. And

50:58

that's the thing to pay attention to. And despite

51:00

the evidence all roads lead to Okay,

51:03

I won't have the conversation, I won't date.

51:05

I'll use the app, but basically not

51:08

really. You know, you're swiping and you're chatting,

51:10

but you're not meeting. There's

51:13

again this big, big hesitancy to

51:16

kind of engage in the things that will evoke

51:18

emotion.

51:20

Yeah, no, that's absolutely right. I

51:22

totally see that.

51:29

So, Adam, we have some advice

51:31

for you. We would

51:33

like you to this week email

51:37

or text your sisters and your dad

51:40

and tell them that you've been thinking

51:42

about your mum a lot lately,

51:46

and you know that they think about

51:48

her as well, and

51:51

that you would like it if

51:53

on the next anniversary of her death,

51:56

you all got on a call and

51:59

talked about a little bit, shared

52:01

some memories of her that

52:03

would make you feel good and you

52:05

would really like that. The emphasis is

52:08

that you would like that to happen. You're

52:10

owning that that's something that you want.

52:12

Now, I'm sure you're thinking, I don't know

52:14

what kind of response is I will

52:16

get from them. Neither do we. But

52:19

the goal here is to represent how

52:21

you feel, and that is something that

52:23

you would like is a door you would like to open.

52:27

So that's the first part of the assignment.

52:30

And what's important about that, as guy was

52:32

saying, is that this isn't so much

52:34

about whether they respond or if they respond

52:36

in a way that you would like. It's that

52:39

you are putting what you would like out there

52:41

so that you can exercise that muscle

52:43

and get used to doing that. And that

52:46

leads us into the second part of the advice, which

52:49

is that what happened with

52:51

your aunt is that when

52:53

she told you about the wedding ring,

52:56

it happened on text or on

52:58

email. It was not where she could see

53:00

you. She does not know that you broke down

53:03

crying, you had this really

53:05

lovely feeling of being connected to your mom

53:07

again. And also

53:10

we think you made some interpretations about

53:13

her response to your other text

53:16

about being a burden. We think it was sort of

53:18

potentially an invitation, and

53:20

so we would like you to contact

53:22

your aunt and say

53:25

to her, you know, when you told me about

53:27

the wedding ring, it moved

53:29

me so much. It was so nice

53:31

to hear something about my

53:34

mom and me from

53:36

you. And when I sent you that other text

53:38

and you said it was a lot to think about, I was really

53:40

glad that I could share that with you. And

53:45

now that I'm in my thirties and

53:47

I don't have memories of my mom

53:50

past nine years old, it

53:53

would mean so much to me if maybe you could

53:55

share with me some

53:57

parts of my mom that I either don't remember

54:00

or happened before I was born. I

54:02

just wanted to get to know her better. I

54:05

would love to hear stories about me and my mom

54:07

when I was little. What was my mom like

54:09

as a little girl, What are

54:11

some funny stories that happened in her

54:14

life? If you could help me get

54:16

to know her better, that would mean so much

54:18

to me. And see

54:20

what happens when you open the door that way

54:22

with her.

54:25

So one last piece of advice,

54:27

Adam, and that's about your dating life. As

54:30

we said, you need to restore a

54:32

sense of trust with yourself and restore

54:35

that sense of honesty with yourself so

54:38

you really listen to how you

54:40

feel and you don't marginalize

54:43

it and push it aside. And to that end,

54:45

would like you to do two things. Number

54:47

one, we'd like you to write a pact

54:50

with yourself that you'll stick

54:53

to from here on, with items

54:55

such as, since honesty

54:57

is really important for me, I

55:00

will let that person know whoever the next

55:02

potential boyfriend is that it is

55:04

important to me if

55:06

I catch them lying, I will let them know that

55:08

that's not something I can tolerate, such

55:10

that if it happens again, I

55:12

will be out because I can't

55:15

be in a relationship where I'm worrying all

55:17

the time that the person's not being honest with me.

55:20

But the pact is one strike,

55:23

and one strike too, they're out.

55:26

And other items that you

55:28

want to put there that you know that you've

55:31

not done a good enough job in the past of

55:33

sticking to what's true for you

55:35

and what's important for you. It'll

55:37

be easy for you to stick to

55:39

a written pact that you should

55:41

have in your pocket when you go on dates, just

55:44

to remind you that this is

55:46

something that you've promised yourself. And

55:49

then this week you're on the apps, you've

55:51

been chatting. We would like you to set

55:53

up one date, and what

55:56

we want you to note on that date

55:59

is how it feels going in there

56:01

with this new determination, this pact in

56:03

your pocket, that you are going to be

56:05

operating very very differently, and

56:07

that you're going to stay really close to your

56:10

truth because your truth is I don't

56:12

abide the lying and the cheating. I

56:14

can't be in a relationship where I'm anxious

56:16

all the time because the person isn't honest. I've

56:19

tasted what it's like to be with somebody

56:21

I can trust. That's what I'm looking

56:23

for. And with that new idea

56:25

in mind, would like you to know what your

56:27

experience of that first date is.

56:30

So this is a contract between

56:33

you and you, not between you and

56:35

the other person. It's between you and you.

56:37

You can't control whether other people are going

56:39

to betray you, but if you

56:42

stop betraying yourself, we think

56:44

you're going to pick better partners as

56:46

a result of that.

56:47

Yeah. Now, I like that idea of

56:50

making a pact of myself and writing it out.

56:52

I thought. And once you do that, you'll

56:54

know one thing. Somebody is going to

56:56

lie to me. I'll only do it once. Somebody's

56:59

going to cheat. We'll only do it once

57:01

because I won't be there for the second time. So

57:05

that makes it feel much safer. Yeah,

57:08

because it can't keep happening, you won't let it.

57:11

Yeah, that's an interesting way. I've never thought of it

57:13

like that. It can't happen more than once. If

57:15

I said this,

57:17

this boundary or this pact. Yeah, no,

57:20

I like that idea. Thank you. I'm

57:22

nervous but excited at the same time that

57:24

thank you for your advice. I appreciate it.

57:26

You're welcome.

57:34

You know, often as therapists, we hear

57:37

something in a first session that

57:39

becomes sort of the touchstone of what

57:41

keeps getting that person stuck. And

57:44

what stands out to me was

57:47

when he was talking about sitting at

57:49

his mother's deathbed and her saying to

57:51

the children, please don't be upset. And

57:54

as a parent myself, I understand so much

57:56

of the pain his mother must have been in

57:58

and not wanting the kids to feel that. But

58:01

the message and the legacy

58:03

of that moment was don't

58:06

be a burden, don't be upset. You're feeling

58:08

these huge feelings, but it's

58:10

not okay to feel that, And

58:13

that has been the narrative in

58:15

the family even after the mother died, where

58:17

they just did not talk about the immense

58:20

pain that they were all feeling in different

58:23

ways. When there's a death in a family,

58:25

everybody in the family experiences it

58:27

in a different way from their own perspectives

58:30

and their own pain, and nobody

58:32

felt that it was okay to

58:35

talk about it. And that is what

58:37

he has inherited in terms

58:39

of his adult relationships.

58:41

You're absolutely right. And the other snapshot

58:43

that I have is that scene after

58:45

she dies, with all four of them

58:48

sitting in a room, each crying

58:50

alone. Is the other kind

58:52

of set up there in that family. Of

58:54

what other feelings you have. It's not only we don't

58:56

talk about them, cry alone, but I'm

58:59

hotened because he did seem

59:01

quite interested in breaking

59:04

some of these molds and having some of these conversations

59:06

or trying to at least be beyond and he will see

59:08

what happens with the family. It

59:11

feels risky and dangerous to

59:13

share these feelings when you were

59:15

so early on taught not

59:18

to right.

59:20

Not only to not share them,

59:22

but he came to a place where he

59:24

doesn't even trust that like when

59:26

his mom, should I feel upset with

59:28

his boyfriends? Should

59:31

I be upset about this little thing? Like

59:33

he didn't tell me where he was, and

59:36

it takes going on holiday with other men

59:38

for it to become something that he

59:40

can acknowledge is maybe not okay.

59:43

It's not only not being able to feel the feelings,

59:45

but not being able to trust that the feelings

59:48

you're feeling are valid. One

59:50

thing I was so moved by was that he said

59:52

he had never really talked about any of this

59:55

with other people, and

59:58

he was so open

1:00:00

and willing to share this with

1:00:02

us, and I felt so honored by

1:00:04

this experience. I think we always feel

1:00:06

honored that people share their lives with us, but

1:00:09

this one in particular really really moved

1:00:11

me.

1:00:17

You're listening to deer therapists. We'll

1:00:19

be back after a short break. So

1:00:32

we heard from Adam and we gave him a lot

1:00:34

to do. Let's see how that went.

1:00:37

Hi guy, Hi Laurie. So it's

1:00:39

been a week and I wanted

1:00:41

to let you know what's happened since

1:00:43

you gave me your advice. The

1:00:46

first piece was to reach out to my family

1:00:49

and to tell them I'd like to do a call

1:00:51

on my mom's death anniversary.

1:00:54

I actually changed it a little bit to my mom's

1:00:56

birthday because that's just coming up much

1:00:58

sooner. My

1:01:01

family were a little slow to respond,

1:01:03

but everybody did eventually

1:01:05

reply, and they all said how much

1:01:08

they loved the idea of taking

1:01:10

some time to talk about memories that we

1:01:12

have with my mom and share some stories. So

1:01:14

that was really great. Secondly, I

1:01:17

got in touch with my aunt. I

1:01:19

explained to her that I wanted to try

1:01:22

to connect more with the family on the

1:01:24

topic of my mom, and she

1:01:26

was really supportive of that. It does

1:01:28

still feel a little uncomfortable to

1:01:31

have these discussions, but I

1:01:33

think, as with anything, the more I do it, then

1:01:36

the more I'll get better at it. I

1:01:38

think at first it will probably be me trying

1:01:40

to connect us all in this way, but

1:01:42

I've realized in essence, I feel like this

1:01:45

is a kind of way to keep my mom

1:01:47

alive by sharing our memories

1:01:49

and our stories about her. Even

1:01:51

though that she's gone, having that closeness

1:01:54

to her is still very important to me,

1:01:56

so thank you for that. My

1:02:00

next assignment was to write a pact with

1:02:02

myself, and this was really

1:02:04

interesting because I actually had to stop

1:02:06

and consider what it is that I do

1:02:09

and don't want from a relationship,

1:02:12

and writing it down made it feel much

1:02:14

more tangible rather than just some vague

1:02:16

ideas floating around in my head. It

1:02:19

gave me some confidence knowing that I can

1:02:21

rely on this pack to come back to whenever

1:02:23

I feel like something might be going wrong, and

1:02:26

hearing you both talk about me

1:02:29

being honest with myself also

1:02:31

made me realize that I need to treat

1:02:33

this promise to myself in

1:02:35

the same way that I would treat a promise to a

1:02:38

friend too. And

1:02:41

finally you told me to go on

1:02:43

a date, and I have to be honest,

1:02:46

I was really finding any excuse

1:02:48

not to do this, but I did in

1:02:50

fact go on a date and it

1:02:52

was really nice. And also having

1:02:55

made that pack with myself, I

1:02:57

felt like I was going into it much

1:02:59

better in the case of

1:03:01

red flag starting to pop up. So

1:03:04

it's still a work in progress,

1:03:06

but I feel like I'm pointing in

1:03:08

the right direction. So

1:03:11

thank you both so much for listening to me. I

1:03:13

really appreciate all of your insights

1:03:15

and all of your advice as well. Thank

1:03:17

you.

1:03:22

Well. I am so pleased for Adam, and I

1:03:24

think one of the things that came out of this

1:03:27

was being able to connect some

1:03:29

of these earlier experiences of

1:03:31

loss with what was happening

1:03:34

in his relationships now

1:03:36

and the earlier experience of not talking

1:03:38

about things and how

1:03:40

that translated to what he was

1:03:42

doing in his relationships now

1:03:44

and not being able to trust himself if something felt

1:03:47

off.

1:03:48

I agree because I think the theme with

1:03:51

Adam was avoidance. It was avoidance

1:03:53

talking about his mum. It was avoidance

1:03:56

dating, and I think

1:03:58

that the push we gave him really

1:04:00

work because he sounds less avoidant,

1:04:03

even though he said he did try to avoid having the date,

1:04:05

but he had a good experience. He

1:04:08

sounds like he opened up a conduit

1:04:11

in his family to talk about

1:04:13

his mom again that I think everyone will

1:04:15

end up benefiting from eventually.

1:04:18

And I think the beauty of what he did was

1:04:21

seeing that people are really receptive.

1:04:24

That he didn't know how they were going to reply,

1:04:26

and we always said to him, it doesn't matter how

1:04:28

they respond. What matters is that you do it.

1:04:31

But then as a bonus to see and

1:04:34

they were very receptive. And sometimes it takes

1:04:36

one person in the family to be

1:04:38

that person to start having

1:04:41

conversations in a way that

1:04:43

the rest of the family wasn't able to do. And

1:04:45

I think the takeaway here that I think many people

1:04:48

can relate to is that when

1:04:50

you avoid things, it

1:04:52

creates so many problems. He

1:04:54

wasn't just avoiding things with his

1:04:56

family members and with the people that he

1:04:58

was in relationships with. He

1:05:01

was avoiding facing these things himself.

1:05:04

And when we stop avoiding things

1:05:06

with ourselves, this whole

1:05:08

New World opens up next

1:05:13

week. A couple struggles with a toxic

1:05:15

ex spouse who's not happy about their

1:05:18

upcoming marriage.

1:05:19

My ex wife is not happy

1:05:22

about the fact that I am engaged to

1:05:25

anyone, and she's not happy that I'm

1:05:28

engaged in particular to Lily.

1:05:30

If you're enjoying our podcast, don't

1:05:32

forget to subscribe for free so that you don't

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miss any episodes, and please help

1:05:36

support Dear Therapists by telling your friends

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about it and leaving a review on Apple Podcasts.

1:05:41

Your reviews really help people to find the show.

1:05:44

If you have a dilemma you'd like to discuss with us,

1:05:47

email us at Laurie and Guy

1:05:49

at iHeartMedia dot com.

1:05:52

Our executive producer is Noel

1:05:54

Brown. We're produced and edited

1:05:56

by Josh Fisher. Additional editing

1:05:59

support by Elena Rosen, John

1:06:01

Washington and Zachary Fisher. Our

1:06:04

interns are Ben Bernstein, Emily

1:06:06

Gutierrez and Silver Lifton. And

1:06:09

special thanks to our podcast fairy Godmother

1:06:12

Katie Curic. We can't wait to see

1:06:14

you at our next session. Deotherapist

1:06:16

is a production of iHeartRadio, Fisher

1:06:24

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