0:03

I'm Laurie Gottlieb. I'm the author of Maybe

0:06

You Should Talk to Someone, and I write the Dear

0:08

Therapist advice column for the Atlantic.

0:10

And I'm Guy Wench. I'm the author of Emotional

0:13

First Aid, and I write the Dear Guy advice

0:15

column for Ted. And this is Deo

0:17

Therapists.

0:18

Each week we invite you into a real session

0:21

where we help people confront their biggest problems

0:23

and then give them actionable advice and

0:25

hear about the changes they've made in their lives.

0:28

So sit back and welcome to today's

0:30

session.

0:31

This week, a young woman who's now

0:33

with a healthy partner still carries

0:35

scars from an abusive relationship she

0:37

had years ago.

0:39

Like I'm just ashamed of the whole situation.

0:41

I don't want to talk about how I had

0:43

an abusive partner for three

0:45

years of my life.

0:46

I want to.

0:47

Forget about it on the outside, but on

0:49

the inside, I can't forget about

0:51

it.

0:52

First, a quick note, Deo Therapists

0:54

is for informational purposes only, does

0:56

not constitute medical or psychological advice,

0:59

and is not a subtitute for professional health

1:01

care advice, diagnosis, or treatment. By

1:03

submitting a letter, you are agreeing to let iHeart

1:05

Media use it in part or in full, and

1:07

we may edit it for length and clarity. In

1:09

the sessions you'll hear, all names have been changed

1:12

for the privacy of our guests.

1:16

Hi Guy, Hi Laurie. So what

1:19

do we have in our mailbox today?

1:21

Today we have a letter from a woman who is still

1:23

processing the fallout of a relationship

1:25

she had several years ago. And here

1:27

it is Deotherapists.

1:30

It has been over five years since I ended

1:32

the toxic and emotionally abusive relationship

1:35

which I was in for approximately three and a half

1:37

years. The reason I'm writing

1:39

to you both is because, at twenty seven

1:41

years old, I still currently experience

1:43

intrusive thoughts and tend to relive

1:46

parts of this relationship over and over

1:48

again in my head. There seems to be

1:50

no escape from this man, even after all

1:52

of these years. The effects of

1:54

this relationship affect me in multiple ways.

1:56

First, I have such anger towards myself

1:59

for participating in this relationship for as long

2:01

as I did. I tried to leave

2:03

multiple times, but my ex had such

2:05

power over me that he always found

2:08

a way to suck me back in. My

2:10

ex boyfriend is a painful and loud

2:12

reminder that this is what happens when you

2:14

don't love yourself. Through

2:16

work in therapy, I learned to develop

2:18

self compassion towards myself for

2:20

how I ended up in this relationship and

2:23

why I stayed for as long as I did. But

2:25

I still grieve for this younger version of

2:27

myself. Secondly, after

2:30

this relationship, I continued to pursue

2:32

emotionally unavailable men and to

2:34

no surprise, got my heart broken more

2:36

than once. It's as if I learned nothing

2:39

from my ex. And Lastly,

2:41

in the years after the relationship ended, I

2:43

stayed in a toxic job that broke

2:46

my spirits and got me to gain thirty pounds.

2:48

I had zero boundaries. I would spread

2:51

myself thin to accommodate others. Please

2:53

help me make peace with this situation. I'm

2:55

too embarrassed to speak with friends and family

2:57

about how I'm feeling. Thank

2:59

you, Kayla.

3:01

What struck me most about Kayla's letter is

3:03

that she said that she's twenty seven years old,

3:05

and doing the math, it sounds like she was about

3:07

nineteen when she got into that relationship

3:10

that still haunts her. And it's

3:13

interesting because I think when we're younger. Often

3:15

we don't know a lot about

3:18

boundaries. But she still hasn't

3:21

forgiven herself for this relationship

3:23

that started when she was basically a

3:25

teenager. And I'll

3:27

be curious to hear why it's been so hard

3:29

for her to let go of

3:32

that and to have the self compassion

3:34

that she is trying to work on.

3:36

Sounds like she's done a lot of work on her SELFIEA,

3:38

she's saying that nothing really has changed

3:41

enough, So that's something we have to find

3:43

out. She does seem to have a lot of insight, yet

3:46

not a lot of changes happening. Let's

3:48

go find out where she's stuck.

3:50

Yeah, let's do that. You're

3:54

listening to Dear Therapists for my Heart Radio.

3:57

We'll be back after a short break. I'm

4:06

Lori Gottlieb.

4:07

And I'm Guy Wench, and this is

4:09

Deatherapist.

4:13

Hi Kayla, Hi Laurie, Hey

4:15

Guy. Thank you so much for having me on the show.

4:17

You are very very welcome.

4:19

We read your letter and we wanted to hear

4:21

a little bit first about

4:23

what's been going on with your dating life

4:26

more recently.

4:28

So this might come as a bit of

4:30

a shock seeing I wrote the

4:32

letter. However, I'm actually engaged

4:35

to a wonderful man.

4:38

And the reason why I say you might be shocked is because

4:40

a letter. You know, I feel like when I

4:42

wrote it, it seems like I have a lot of

4:45

unresolved trauma from the pest. But

4:47

my fiance is a wonderful man. It's

4:49

just the past that I can't seem to reconcile

4:52

with.

4:52

So I think you wrote to us fairly recently. Tell

4:55

us how long ago you met this man

4:57

and how

4:59

long you've been engaged.

5:01

Yes, so I recently

5:03

got engaged about two months

5:05

ago, and we've

5:08

been dating for about two years.

5:11

So when you wrote to us and you were saying that

5:13

you had this pattern of still choosing

5:15

unavailable men, you were

5:18

engaged or you were with this man when

5:20

you wrote to.

5:21

Us, yes, not engaged.

5:24

You were saying you have this problem going

5:26

after unavailable men, but you'd been in a

5:29

relatively long relationship with

5:31

an available man.

5:33

Yes, And it was very

5:36

weird at first. I

5:38

wasn't even sure I wanted to be with someone

5:40

like him. Maybe he was too available.

5:43

What I mean is it sounded from the letter

5:46

like you had been through this pattern

5:48

for the last five years of continually

5:50

dating unavailable men.

5:53

When you were writing us that letter, Why

5:56

do you think you left out the fact

5:58

that you have and to

6:01

be in a relationship with an available man.

6:04

I think I still feel a lot of

6:06

shame for a lot of my past decisions,

6:09

and I do feel like a

6:12

fraud sometimes in my current relationship.

6:16

So I think, while yes, I

6:18

am in a happy relationship, I

6:20

do also feel

6:22

like maybe

6:25

not deserving of the relationship.

6:28

Does the fact that you left out that detail

6:30

reflect also how you think

6:32

about yourself? In other words, it's been

6:34

five years, you've done all this work in therapy,

6:37

you're actually engaged to a

6:39

good, emotionally available man at the

6:41

moment, do you still think

6:43

of yourself as

6:46

the woman who was in the toxic

6:48

relationship despite the fact that you've

6:50

been in a good relationship for two years.

6:53

Yeah, I think that's pretty spot on about

6:55

how I view myself.

6:58

So reality has moved on changed,

7:01

but your self perception hasn't

7:03

updated with it.

7:06

Yeah, definitely.

7:07

Can you tell us how the

7:10

feelings that you're carrying around from the

7:12

earlier relationship play out

7:15

in the current relationship.

7:18

Yes, So early on

7:20

in the relationship, it was very

7:22

weird to me to have a

7:24

man that was texting me every day wanting

7:27

to spend time with me. So those

7:29

were things that freaked me out in the beginning.

7:32

But I will say like, as we would

7:34

start dating, I noticed

7:36

that sometimes when you know, he would make

7:38

like a small comment like oh I miss you

7:40

or I haven't seen you in a long time. I

7:43

would have panic attacks and I would

7:46

start apologizing profusely,

7:48

like I'm so sorry, I feel like such a horrible

7:50

girlfriend.

7:51

That's how you interpreted him saying I miss you.

7:55

I saw it as something

7:57

like you never make time

7:59

for me. That's how I viewed

8:01

it because that's how it was with my

8:04

ex boyfriend Jay.

8:05

But with my current fiance it's

8:09

very different.

8:09

Another example, so

8:11

we lived together recently and

8:14

I tend to keep dishes in the sink

8:16

sometimes, and last

8:19

week he was making

8:21

a joke, oh look Kayla leaving

8:23

her dishes in the sink again, and

8:26

I just jerked up from the couch and

8:28

I was like, oh my gosh, I'll clean

8:30

this up right away. I'm so sorry. And

8:32

he even said like, relax, I was

8:34

just busting your chops. So

8:37

I think I

8:40

was so scared of my ex boyfriend Jay

8:42

that that fear still

8:45

controls me in my current relationship.

8:48

Does he make the connection

8:50

in his own head between, oh, she's reacting

8:53

strongly because of her ex.

8:54

We've had a little bit of

8:57

discussions of my previous relationship

9:00

experience a lot of shame. So

9:02

I maybe didn't tell him

9:04

a lot of things because I didn't

9:06

want him to look at me differently. I

9:08

didn't want him to say, like, why

9:11

would Kayla choose a man like that? What's wrong

9:14

with her? Even though I

9:16

don't believe deep down that's

9:18

what he would think.

9:20

I just.

9:22

Choose just not to say certain

9:24

things that have happened. But he definitely knows

9:27

that I was in a very toxic

9:29

relationship. I didn't

9:31

say to him that it was abusive. I

9:33

just said it was toxic.

9:35

I think what's interesting is that

9:38

you thought he might say, what's

9:40

wrong with her? That she was in that relationship.

9:44

But I think that's what you say to yourself, And

9:47

that's so common with people who have been

9:49

in abusive relationships. They

9:51

think something is wrong with them.

9:54

And so I'd be curious if you could tell us a little bit

9:56

more about what actually went on

9:58

in that relationship.

10:00

So the relationship spanned about three

10:02

years. It was sort of in like two

10:05

phases, if you will. The first year

10:07

and a half was us trying

10:09

to figure out what we were. The second

10:12

year and a half was when we were actually

10:14

in a relationship.

10:16

We had met in college.

10:18

We would flirt and

10:21

when we would see each other parties, we

10:24

would sometimes kiss when we saw each other

10:26

at the bar, but nothing ever progressed

10:28

from there. And right

10:30

before he was about to graduate, I

10:32

was a few years younger than him, he told

10:34

me that he cared about me, and

10:36

I realized that I had feelings

10:39

for him as well. I realized right

10:42

after he said those words that

10:44

that's all they were.

10:45

They were just words.

10:46

There was no actions to

10:48

back him up, because that weekend

10:50

after he told me he cared about me, and

10:53

went to the bar and he was making out with another

10:55

girl right in front of me. But we

10:59

continue to play this game of

11:01

him pretending he didn't want me, pretending

11:04

I didn't care, when I really

11:06

did. So we hung out that entire

11:09

summer. He didn't want to do

11:11

long distance when I was going back to school, and

11:14

I would say that year that I went back

11:17

to school without him, I was barely

11:20

functioning. I was completely

11:22

heartbroken. My grades

11:24

were falling. I

11:27

couldn't even get out of bed. My drinking

11:29

was sort of out of control. I think

11:31

I was coping with the

11:34

loss of this man by partying

11:37

too hard. And then

11:40

when I came back home for the summer,

11:42

he reached out again and was like, let's

11:45

get back together. And I

11:48

didn't even fight him. I was just like, yeah,

11:50

let's get back together, even though

11:52

he'd completely broken my heart.

11:54

So that first section you

11:57

weren't actually together. Was there a

11:59

period that you were actually together?

12:01

This summer after he had graduated,

12:04

and this is right before my junior year of

12:06

college. We were hanging

12:08

out all the time, and

12:12

I fell in love with him, which

12:16

now I see it wasn't love. I almost

12:18

describe him like he was a drug. When

12:21

he wouldn't text me, I physically

12:23

felt sick. And then when he

12:25

would text me, I felt like I was on

12:27

top of the world. But every

12:31

time I hung out with him, I always felt

12:33

this sense of emptiness

12:35

and loneliness, and I couldn't

12:38

really pinpoint why I

12:40

felt that way.

12:42

You said you felt empty after

12:44

you hung out with him, and at the same

12:46

time you said you fell in love with him. What

12:49

did it mean to be in love with him? What did you love

12:51

about him?

12:52

He was very popular at

12:54

my college, but he was known

12:56

for being a player. He was

13:00

one of, in my opinion,

13:02

one of the most attractive men at the school,

13:05

and he always had girls

13:08

like pining over him. So

13:10

I think when got

13:13

to the point where he told me he cared about me,

13:15

I almost felt like I won something. I

13:18

won, like this prize of this of

13:21

like the most attractive, most popular

13:23

man of college.

13:25

So I was saying it was like winning a prize,

13:28

because for you to be with this popular,

13:31

handsome guy kind of elevated

13:33

your status in other people's eyes, but probably

13:36

mostly in your own. Were

13:38

you aware that you were kind of tethering

13:40

your self esteem a little bit to

13:43

him?

13:45

Definitely, because there

13:47

were times that summer that

13:51

I had tried to end things with him because

13:53

I really felt like I wasn't getting

13:56

what I deserved or needed. But

13:58

then he would always come back and

14:00

say, no, I'll fight for you, and

14:03

I believe those words, but

14:06

those words were always empty

14:08

with no actions to back them up.

14:10

It kept going on like that for quite a while.

14:13

What internal dialogue did you

14:15

have about trying to get yourself

14:18

to not capitulate when he came and

14:20

said, no, I'll fight for you. You're the one. And was

14:22

there an internal fight about

14:25

like no, I shouldn't or was it just like, okay,

14:27

good, let's let's do it.

14:29

I think part of me wanted him to

14:32

fight for me.

14:33

So when I got those words from

14:35

him again, I felt that high,

14:38

like I took a drug. So I I

14:40

really didn't push back when

14:43

he would you fight for me,

14:46

And even like from the point where I actually

14:48

broke up with him, you know, years later,

14:51

he did try to fight for me again, and that

14:53

time I was actually done. But at the time, like

14:56

I knew it was bad, but I almost couldn't

14:59

help myself, and I

15:01

feel a lot of shame around that currently.

15:04

I'm not sure if you're aware, but the

15:06

science of heartbreak is quite

15:09

clear that what happens in our brain when we're heartbroken

15:11

is very similar to what happens

15:13

in our brain when opioid

15:15

addicts are withdrawing from

15:18

heroin. In other words, you said drug,

15:21

and our brain absolutely

15:23

regards it as a drug, and

15:26

like heroin in the sense that you

15:29

feel desperate to just get a fix,

15:31

to just get him back, to just be in

15:33

touch, and you feel pointless

15:36

without him, the drug is the answer to

15:39

everything. Nothing else matters when you're highly,

15:41

highly addicted, and everything gets

15:44

devastated when you are withdrawing

15:46

from strong opioids. And

15:48

that's exactly what you're describing. There's

15:50

a big part of you that does feel a lot

15:52

of shame. And I'm saying that because

15:55

this is one of the most remarkable

15:58

findings about this brain in science

16:00

and heartbreak, that we are driven to

16:03

do things like heroin addicts

16:06

are when they're withdrawing. When heroin addicts

16:08

are with drawing, that makes sense. We don't

16:10

know that with heartbreak, and so it didn't make

16:12

sense to you. It's the same

16:14

dynamic, and that's why it was so hard to resist.

16:17

That's really good to know.

16:19

I suspected it was like a drug,

16:21

but I didn't know there was actually science to back

16:23

that up.

16:24

How did you eventually decide

16:26

that you were going to go to rehub

16:29

let's say, by breaking up with

16:31

him?

16:32

So I remember this day so very

16:34

clearly. He refused

16:36

to come to anything that pertained

16:38

to like family or friends events,

16:41

and when he was around my parents, he

16:43

was just you could just tell he was very uncomfortable.

16:46

So he picked

16:48

a fight with me a few days before

16:50

Christmas, and I knew he did

16:52

that because he

16:54

didn't want to come to

16:57

Christmas.

16:57

He knew I was going to beg him.

17:00

So at Christmas, when everyone was asking

17:02

me, like, oh, hey, where's Jay, I

17:05

was like, we broke up and at that point we actually

17:07

hadn't, but I was telling everyone that

17:09

because I knew my decision

17:11

was made. That was sort of like the straw

17:13

that broke the camel's back. And

17:16

the next day I went over to his house

17:19

and I broke

17:21

up with him. And for all

17:23

the times he watched me cry, he

17:26

was the one finally crying. And

17:28

I wasn't actively happy

17:30

to see him cry, but I sort of had

17:32

the mindset like, you know, crime, your river,

17:35

after what you had put me through. He

17:39

was just like watching him on his hands

17:41

and knees, begging for forgiveness, and

17:44

I just said to him, I don't want to be with you

17:46

anymore. I felt so empowered

17:49

in that moment, and

17:51

I walked away and he still was following

17:53

me to my car, trying to win

17:55

me back, and I said, get out of my

17:58

face.

17:59

So it definitely didn't.

18:00

And well, but I was

18:02

just proud that for once

18:04

I really stood off for myself.

18:07

What was it about that straw

18:09

that broke the camel's back? Because it sounds like he had done things

18:12

like that throughout your time together,

18:14

sending these very mixed messages

18:17

of come close, no go away, come

18:19

close, go away, and

18:22

then there's this one incident

18:24

that sounds not that different from the

18:26

other things that went on. What was it about that one?

18:29

I think part of me was scared

18:31

of him. Again, he was never physical

18:34

with me, but I was scared

18:36

of him in the sense that, you

18:39

know, he was always yelling at me. So

18:42

I definitely think at

18:44

that point I was walking

18:47

on eggshells around him, was afraid

18:49

of him. So I

18:52

think I didn't know I wanted

18:54

to break up with him. I just didn't know how

18:56

because I think I still was afraid of him.

19:00

The relationship. Were you ever able

19:02

to say to him, Hey, I didn't like when

19:04

you did that.

19:06

I definitely did at first

19:08

when we were like officially dating. Now, I

19:11

wouldn't stand up for myself. Every time

19:13

he came to visit me at school. We

19:15

always got into a fight. He

19:18

was always mad about

19:20

something, and I always just apologized to

19:22

him and begged for his forgiveness.

19:25

And there was actually a specific incident that

19:27

happened where one

19:30

of my friends was also visiting

19:32

me that weekend with him. I think

19:34

it was my birthday weekend, and I

19:38

just remember fighting between the two of us

19:40

and it was just awful. And

19:42

the next day my friend

19:45

had like pulled me aside and she said,

19:49

you know, Kayla, I'm really worried,

19:51

Like he just started

19:53

yelling at you out of nowhere. She said, I

19:55

was with you the whole night. You did absolutely

19:58

nothing wrong, and she wasn't

20:01

like, oh, break up with him, but she expressed

20:04

a lot of concern about that kind of behavior.

20:07

So I think after that sort of the

20:10

dynamics switched where I started

20:12

to challenge him because I

20:14

think it felt good to have a

20:16

friend tell me I wasn't crazy, because

20:19

I legitimately thought I was the problem

20:21

in the relationship.

20:23

You know, you mentioned that you felt

20:26

a lot of and still feel a lot of shame about the

20:28

relationship and that you didn't really talk

20:31

to friends much about it. But

20:33

after that experience, when a friend actually

20:35

just sees something and a good friend she is

20:37

to come up to you and say I'm worried without

20:40

going too much further than I'm worried. I think she handled

20:42

it really well. Why

20:44

did that not make you feel more comfortable,

20:47

even with this one friend being

20:50

more open about what was going on,

20:53

or sharing some of the dilemmas

20:55

or the painful moments. Why

20:58

did you still that

21:00

to yourself when he's one friend who

21:02

sees there's something going on and is clearly

21:04

supportive.

21:06

I think I didn't share because I knew

21:08

what everyone was going to say. I

21:10

think I knew people were going to tell me

21:12

to leave him, and I don't think

21:14

I was ready at that point.

21:16

It's interesting, cable because in

21:18

fact, a friend you pointed out very specifically

21:21

in that first comment was I'm worried

21:23

for you, and you specifically said she didn't tell me I

21:25

should leave or anything. It was your

21:27

own fear that if I tell them, and I

21:29

am open with them, and I hear my own

21:32

mouth say these things about

21:34

him, I'll think I really have

21:37

to leave, rather than they'll

21:39

think I really have to leave.

21:41

Yeah, definitely, And that makes

21:43

me wonder a little bit if you have any ideas

21:46

now in retrospect about

21:49

what do you think it was that made

21:52

you continue to stay in a relationship where that

21:54

behavior was going on.

21:55

They think my childhood was

21:58

not that great in the sense that in

22:01

school I was the weird girl.

22:04

I was the girl that didn't have any

22:06

friends. I struggled

22:09

academically up until I got to

22:11

high school, and I also was an athletic,

22:13

so I think from a

22:16

social aspect, I didn't

22:18

have that much confidence because I.

22:21

Was that weird girl.

22:23

So I think that's why I was even more attracted

22:25

to him at first, because here

22:28

I was getting attention from the popular

22:30

kid, which was something I

22:32

think my inner child desired.

22:35

What made you weird exactly?

22:38

I was one of the youngest

22:40

kids in my grade, and I

22:44

just struggled academically. Looking

22:47

back, I just believe that

22:49

I was physically and emotionally

22:51

immature. And my

22:54

parents are blue collar workers, so I

22:56

think, you know, while they were very

22:58

physically present, they didn't

23:00

really know how to help me academically.

23:04

So I would always like bring home like failed tests

23:06

and they would just yell at me to get better grades,

23:08

but never actually helping me to Teachers

23:12

told my parents I should be in special

23:14

education classes, so

23:17

that only further made me think low

23:19

of myself. But I just didn't really have

23:21

the right resources available to me. And

23:25

it was funny. By the time I got to high school, I started

23:28

to get straight a's. And I think the

23:31

reason I'm such an overtiever now

23:33

is because of that

23:36

feeling like I have to prove something that

23:38

in her child I still think hurts

23:41

or grieves like the life that.

23:43

She thought she should have had. It

23:45

was definitely rough.

23:46

In your letter, you talked about grieving

23:48

this time in your life that you spent with Jay,

23:52

But what you're talking about now is

23:54

grieving those years of

23:56

childhood. Long before you met Jay,

24:00

you were so isolated, so alone,

24:02

weren't really seen in the way that

24:04

you needed to be seen. And I think this grief

24:06

piece is really important because when

24:10

we're trying to process a loss,

24:13

sometimes what we do is we confuse

24:15

one loss with another loss. And

24:18

because you had had that experience in childhood,

24:20

and then you had this experience of a

24:23

not very good relationship in

24:25

your late teens early twenties, you're

24:29

still you say in your letter, grieving

24:33

this period of your life

24:35

that you wish had gone differently. And

24:39

I wonder if you would feel that same

24:41

way about the j relationship if

24:43

you hadn't also been grieving

24:46

the losses that you experienced in childhood.

24:50

Yeah, I do wonder

24:52

that sometimes, but.

24:56

It definitely feels lonely because

24:58

I feel like sometimes I can't really talk about

25:01

it.

25:03

With anyone because what do you

25:05

imagine would happened?

25:07

I just think, you know, my family and friends

25:10

have been like worried about me, probably up until

25:12

like a few years ago, and

25:15

I just feel like I need to present

25:17

like this stable person at this point,

25:20

so I sort of suppress a

25:23

lot of what I'm feeling or tell

25:25

my therapist. But it

25:28

definitely feels lonely. I

25:30

want to forget about it on the outside,

25:33

but on the inside I can't forget

25:35

about it.

25:36

Do your parents know you said that your

25:38

friends would notice some of Jay's behavior.

25:41

Did your parents ever say we're

25:43

worried about this?

25:45

They never said anything. Like

25:48

recently, with like in the last couple of years,

25:50

they've said, like, you know, we

25:53

didn't know it was this bad. You

25:55

hid a lot from us, But they

25:58

said we knew the relationship

26:00

wasn't good, they didn't

26:03

realize it was abusive.

26:04

And how did they find out that it was abusive

26:06

if you weren't talking about it.

26:08

My sister had told them. There

26:11

was one night I had a complete

26:13

mental breakdown about.

26:16

This after the relationship ended.

26:18

Yeah, after I had pursued one of these

26:20

emotionally unavailable guys. Once

26:22

that happened, I

26:25

sort of was like crying over that

26:27

guy as well as Jay. And

26:30

like my parents like sometimes would joke about my ex

26:32

Jay, and I think when they were joking one

26:35

time, my sister said, like, you don't

26:38

You can't joke about that relationship.

26:40

You don't realize how bad it was. And

26:43

I think my parents were

26:45

floored. She just was

26:47

trying to get like my parents to realize that

26:51

they failed me in a sense. At least

26:53

that's my sister told my parents.

26:56

That's her opinion.

26:57

What does your sister think your parents

27:00

should have done or what do you think they should have done

27:02

given that they didn't know what was

27:04

going on.

27:06

Like I said, my parents blue collar workers.

27:08

They we didn't have the most money growing

27:10

up, but they really worked very

27:12

hard to give us a good life.

27:15

And as much as I

27:17

love them, I think growing up

27:19

their focus was always on what

27:21

looks good on paper. The message me

27:23

and my sister received when we're going to

27:25

college, like you need to pick a major that

27:28

is going to you're going to make six figures right right

27:30

out of school. You cannot major in education.

27:33

You're not going to get a job as a teacher. The

27:36

keeping me in sports growing up

27:38

when I wasn't good at them, and

27:40

that sort of like ruined my

27:43

self confidence because when you're, you

27:46

know, an eleven year old girl, you

27:48

compare yourself to your peers, and you

27:51

know, me and my sister used to cry and beg our

27:53

parents, you know, please let us quit the

27:55

sport, Please let us quit this club, and

27:58

it was always like, no, you have to do everything

28:00

you can do to make your resume

28:02

look good. So I

28:05

think my sister, you

28:08

know, felt like my

28:10

parents failed me in the sense that they

28:13

never cared about my happiness.

28:15

That you didn't have the tools to

28:18

really listen to what you

28:20

wanted or desired because you didn't have

28:22

practice with that.

28:24

Yeah, like everything I

28:26

would like come to my parents with was always

28:29

dismissed. You know, something as silly

28:31

as wanting to quit softball.

28:35

I would have so much anxiety going to

28:37

practice. I used to cry in the bathroom

28:40

because I didn't want to play it, and I

28:42

would cry to my parents and it

28:45

was just sort of like too bad. So

28:48

I think I

28:51

just learned to do things that I didn't

28:53

want to do in life, learned

28:56

to stay in jobs too long, stayed in relationships.

29:00

Longer than they wanted to.

29:02

You said that your parents are really concerned about

29:05

you getting a job where you made a lot

29:07

of money right out of college and

29:10

that things looked a certain way. Did

29:12

you end up choosing a career based

29:16

on what they wanted?

29:18

One hundred percent.

29:19

I was always good at math in high school because

29:22

I had sort of dealt with a lot of depression

29:24

and anxiety. I actually wanted to major

29:26

in psychology. I wanted to become

29:28

like a therapist because I said I wanted

29:31

to help people like me.

29:33

And.

29:35

I was told like, no,

29:38

you're going to need to go to grad school for that major.

29:41

It was basically like, you're good at math,

29:43

so just do something in business. So

29:46

I chose finance, and

29:49

it definitely didn't belong in that

29:51

major.

29:52

I think.

29:54

A lot of the reasons why

29:57

I even stayed in my relationship with Jay's

29:59

because I was very unhappy in college,

30:03

forcing something that wasn't meant for me,

30:06

and he was my only source of happiness

30:09

really at the time. I mean, he wasn't happiness

30:11

for me. But that was my only.

30:13

Crutch, let's call it an escape.

30:16

Yeah, and even the message like you

30:18

have to get a job at a big bank, and

30:22

that job was also one of the worst experiences

30:25

of my life.

30:27

I don't actively blame my

30:29

parents anymore. I see

30:32

them for who they are with their own

30:34

issues. I just wished

30:38

they would have listened to me. I

30:42

wish I would have had the insight

30:44

to, like, you know, go to college

30:46

and choose my own major,

30:50

or at least I wish I could have dual majored

30:52

in psychology. I wish I would have done

30:55

something for myself. But the message

30:57

was so ingrained in me that life

30:59

is hard and you just have to accept it

31:01

for what it is.

31:04

Have you ever told them that

31:06

you feel this way?

31:09

Yes, they harbor

31:11

a lot of guilt.

31:12

My parents were actually paying

31:14

recently for my therapy and

31:17

I didn't ask them to. I

31:19

think they just feel so bad

31:22

for what had happened,

31:24

and they've seen me have you

31:26

know, a ton of mental breakdowns over

31:28

my job. So

31:31

I think knowing that they're

31:34

sorry helped me forgive them

31:36

a little bit, and not.

31:38

Just being sorry, but knowing that they

31:40

can actually see you.

31:43

Yeah, Taylor, you said,

31:45

your sister the one that told your

31:47

parents about what was going on

31:49

with Jay, and your sister is the one

31:51

that got through to them about

31:54

this stuff as well. Do you have a

31:56

relationship now where you don't need your sister

31:58

and if something is going on, if there's

32:00

something you wanted to bring up, you feel comfortable

32:02

doing it in a way that they can hear and respond

32:05

to.

32:06

Luckily, yes, it

32:08

took up me a long time to get there, but I

32:12

have really strong boundaries with

32:14

my parents and they respect them. For

32:17

example, my mother she knows when

32:19

she comments on my clothes. I know it's very

32:21

trivial, but if she comments

32:24

on my parents, she knows I'm

32:26

going to flip out on her. Probably

32:28

isn't the mature thing to do, but I've

32:31

gone into a place where my

32:33

boundaries are my boundaries, and

32:36

I'm really proud of

32:38

the boundaries I have with my parents, and I think

32:40

because they respect my boundaries, I can

32:43

have a good relationship with them.

32:45

I'm wondering if the

32:47

timing of having boundaries

32:50

with your parents and having them really see you

32:52

coincides with not going

32:55

after unavailable men anymore

32:57

and meeting your fiance.

33:01

So I think some of the men, well,

33:03

two of them were divorced, and

33:05

they were only divorced for a month, So

33:08

I think that should have been my first red flag

33:10

that maybe they weren't ready to be

33:12

in a relationship. I think after

33:14

you dating some men like this, I

33:17

had rules for myself. One

33:20

of them was something as silly as

33:23

they couldn't add me on social media unless

33:25

they were serious about being

33:27

serious with me. I try to look at everything

33:29

and say like, Okay, they may

33:32

have messed up, but where did I fail to

33:34

see the red flags?

33:35

What did I just sweep under the rug that shouldn't

33:38

have.

33:38

Been So it sounds like you were

33:41

learning from these relationships

33:44

with people who weren't available or weren't

33:46

wanting what you were wanting at the same time, But

33:49

in your letter you present it as

33:51

if you're just not learning anything. You said

33:53

something like I've learned nothing from this,

33:56

and yet you were starting to set boundaries.

33:58

You were coming up with what are my

34:01

limits? You were looking at yourself

34:03

and saying, what is my role in this? And

34:05

then you started to have a

34:07

different relationship with your parents, and

34:10

you also met your fiance. So

34:12

help us understand your perception

34:15

from your letter that nothing has changed to

34:19

I met this guy, and I'm in this really

34:22

different relationship than I've ever

34:24

been in.

34:25

I still see myself as

34:29

this helpless young

34:31

child.

34:32

As proud as

34:35

I am of the strides I've made, as

34:37

happy as I am with my fiance, I

34:40

still am scared that

34:42

I can't trust myself. I'm

34:45

even scared to be one

34:48

thousand percent happy with my fiance because

34:51

I'm scared that I'm just going to keep making mistakes.

34:54

Can you just clarify what mistakes

34:56

you could make with your field and say right now?

34:58

For example, I'm scared

35:00

to want a baby, And the

35:02

reason why I'm scared to want a baby is because

35:05

I convinced myself that I'm infertile,

35:08

even though I go to the doctors yearly.

35:10

There's nothing wrong with me. But

35:13

I'm just convinced that I can't

35:15

have what other people have. And I'm

35:19

even like scared to plan a wedding because

35:22

I'm just I'm just like, it's going to rain,

35:24

something's gonna happen. I'm

35:27

just like, oh, like, let me just elope so

35:29

that I don't have expectations. I

35:31

sort of self sabotage to

35:34

manage so cold foreseeable

35:36

failure.

35:38

So desire is dangerous,

35:42

yes, because the other shoe could

35:44

easily drop.

35:45

Yeah, so that's right. Sometimes I

35:47

feel like a fraud. My fiance adores

35:49

me, and I'm like, what do you adore? He's

35:52

never given me a reason not to trust him, or

35:54

every day he shows me that

35:58

he loves me in some capacity.

36:01

What do you love about him?

36:04

I love that

36:07

he's always there for me. Besides

36:10

the fact that he's very physically attractive,

36:12

at least to me, his

36:16

comfort to means everything. His friendship

36:18

to me is everything. He's

36:20

a very sensitive guy, and

36:22

that's very different than anyone have ever dated.

36:25

His emotions are on his sleeve and

36:29

I never have to guess what he's thinking.

36:33

He surprises me

36:35

with flowers all the time, or

36:38

he'll cook for me and he'll say, like,

36:40

you know, I made this meal with love. Just a lot

36:42

of little things that I

36:45

really have grown to appreciate about

36:47

him.

36:48

So you were talking about how cared for you

36:50

feel by your fiance, and

36:53

at the same time you're afraid to really

36:56

talk to him about some of your

36:58

experiences that still live inside of it. What

37:01

do you think makes for that

37:03

disconnect between I really trust

37:05

this person and I really feel

37:08

cared for, and I

37:11

also don't want to open

37:13

up to him. Is that the other shoes going to drop?

37:15

And if so, how might it drop.

37:18

I don't think he would leave me

37:21

or anything if I did open up. I

37:23

really think it's rooted back

37:26

in the shame I still feel from

37:28

the experience. I want to

37:30

present that things

37:33

are peachy, when in

37:35

reality there's turmoil inside.

37:39

I think it's really just the

37:41

vulnerability of opening

37:44

up to such rough subjects,

37:46

to dark times in my life.

37:48

You have shame about the relationship with Jay,

37:50

but do you also have shame specifically about

37:53

your elementary school experiences?

37:56

Yeah?

37:57

I mean, you know, what are people

37:59

going to say if I'm like, oh,

38:01

you know, I was a loser in elementary school?

38:04

And I know that's dramatic. I know it's

38:06

not that dark, but

38:09

you know, it scares me.

38:10

I notice how much you downplay your

38:12

experiences. Earlier in our

38:14

conversation, you said about a boundary that you were

38:17

setting. This might sound silly, when

38:19

it was not a silly boundary at all. It was a very

38:21

valid boundary to set. And

38:24

now you're saying you're being dramatic by

38:26

talking about what sounds like a very lonely

38:29

and painful time in your

38:32

childhood. You said after

38:34

the Jay relationship that they have

38:36

to be emotionally available, they

38:39

have to be stable, and you have

38:41

this partner who seems to be that, but

38:44

you don't seem to want to be emotionally

38:48

available in

38:50

your upcoming marriage.

38:53

What do you think will happen if you continue

38:56

to hide like this?

38:58

I mean, worst case a divorce.

39:00

Obviously that's not something I would ever

39:02

want, but I understand what

39:05

you're saying, Laurie. If we did

39:07

have kids, if I'm going to do what my parents

39:09

did to my kids and invalidate

39:11

their emotions that you know, that terrifies me

39:13

too, even have kids, to

39:15

know, like, what if I screw them up the way my

39:17

parents screwed me up? You

39:20

know, what if I invalidate their emotions or

39:22

their needs, or

39:26

you know, if I have kids, what if I try

39:28

to give them the life that I always

39:30

wanted but never had and force them

39:32

to.

39:32

Do things they don't want to do.

39:34

First of all, it sounds like you're so

39:37

aware of these things in

39:39

a way that parents who do

39:41

do those things to their kids maybe aren't so aware

39:44

that they're doing it. But

39:46

also you went away from my question,

39:48

and I bring that up because again

39:51

we're talking about the emotional intimacy

39:53

with your fiance, and

39:55

when I go there, you go

39:57

to a different worry.

40:01

So if we can sit for a second

40:03

and think about that and see what happens in your

40:05

body as

40:08

that question goes

40:10

through you,

40:13

you imagine being

40:15

emotionally available to him. What do you imagine

40:18

it will feel like to be with this person who

40:21

really cares about you? But

40:23

then you stay closed off in certain

40:25

ways, so you're kind of unknowable. He doesn't

40:28

really get to know you, and

40:30

in certain ways you won't really get to know him.

40:34

Feels like really unfair to

40:36

him and to myself.

40:40

How does it feel unfair to you?

40:43

Because I deserve to

40:46

make peace and I deserve to express

40:48

myself, and

40:53

I just keep denying myself that

40:57

it's only going to just further confirm

40:59

to my self disbelief that I'm not

41:01

worthy.

41:03

It's a cruel form of self

41:06

sabotage.

41:07

It's self sabotage in the name of self

41:09

protection, except

41:11

that it doesn't actually protect you. It

41:13

leaves you more vulnerable to things going

41:15

wrong.

41:17

Yeah, what I'm hearing from you

41:19

is that there is a

41:22

way in which you actually really

41:24

don't feel worthy

41:26

because you still feel in

41:28

part and too much like the

41:32

weirdo kid, the

41:35

loser as you represent it,

41:37

and you still have so much shame around

41:40

Jay, and I think what's

41:43

preventing you from opening up and

41:45

being emotionally available to your

41:47

fiance and to other people in your life perhaps

41:50

is that there is very very

41:53

little self compassion in

41:55

all those formulations. You

41:58

are viewing yourself through

42:00

the eyes of a young girl

42:03

that was really suffering and

42:05

really having a hard time. Till you

42:08

can start thinking of your history

42:10

and of yourself with much

42:12

much more self compassion, it's

42:15

going to be very hard for you to open up.

42:17

Yeah, you said that your

42:19

finance job made you miserable. Have

42:23

you made a change since that job?

42:27

Yeah?

42:27

I quit was sort of another moment

42:30

similar to when I broke up with Jay, where

42:32

I felt very empowered. Within

42:34

like two months, I literally lost like

42:37

twenty five pounds, like just the stress

42:40

just evaporated from my body.

42:42

That's how much stress I was holding

42:45

in to my body from that job,

42:47

and it just left. I didn't

42:49

even like change my diet, and

42:51

everyone was like, you just look like

42:54

a different person, And I think once I left

42:56

that job that was suffocating to me is

42:58

when I really decided did that

43:02

things needed to change. And I

43:05

almost can thank my fiance a little

43:07

bit for that, because he has

43:10

a job that he loves and he almost

43:12

inspired me to

43:14

seek different for myself.

43:17

So are you pursuing something that excites

43:19

you.

43:20

I took a different job at a much smaller

43:22

firm and I've

43:25

been there for like a year and a half.

43:27

Now.

43:28

I am still like in the sort

43:31

of the finance world, but I'm working

43:33

nine to five, which is just amazing.

43:36

My priority has been trying

43:39

to fix myself, if you.

43:41

Will, or can we say, maybe trying to heal

43:43

myself.

43:45

Yeah, my priority

43:47

has been to heal myself. I'm,

43:49

you know, in therapy. I'm reading books

43:51

again, which is something I haven't done in years.

43:54

I have, you know, dabbled

43:57

in yoga a little bit.

43:58

Though.

43:59

I think my career

44:01

is sort of on a back burner right now because I'm

44:03

trying to

44:05

fix these other areas of my life first.

44:09

And where in all of this is

44:12

your interest in psychology

44:14

and your desire to become a therapist.

44:17

I mean, I still think I would love to be one. I

44:20

know I could do it if I really wanted

44:22

to, So, sort of like I

44:24

do another areas of my life, I kind

44:26

of keep my life small, or I stay

44:28

in this limbo to protect myself.

44:31

Does your fiance know about that desire?

44:34

He does, and he

44:37

said, like, if you want to do it, you

44:39

know, I'll support you.

44:42

But I'm scared to shake things

44:45

up in my life because right

44:47

now I feel a

44:49

lot better. But I'm scared to be too

44:51

happy and I'm scared to be too

44:54

depressed. So I keep

44:57

myself in a limbo area.

45:00

Saying that you're afraid to feel

45:02

too happy and you're afraid to go spiraling

45:04

down into depression. So you

45:06

want to stay in this kind of safe middle. But the

45:09

problem with that is that you don't really feel

45:12

Yeah, so I think there is something

45:14

in between depression and

45:17

just not feeling great

45:19

that day. But for you,

45:21

it's like it's either going to be really great

45:23

or really awful, kind of

45:26

like it was with Jay. You know, things

45:28

are great he called me he wants me, or

45:30

things are terrible. He's ignoring me, or

45:32

he's treating me poorly. And

45:36

so your idea to solve

45:38

that problem is to just kind of stay in this safe

45:41

middle. And what I want to suggest

45:43

is that if you mute one feeling, you mute

45:45

the others. And so you're so afraid

45:48

of feeling joy that

45:50

you're muting some of the pain, and you're so

45:52

afraid of going into the pain that you're

45:54

muting the joy,

45:57

and so you're not really kind

45:59

of alone live in your

46:01

emotional world. And

46:03

you again have this all or nothing idea

46:05

that well, i'd have to kind of drop everything into

46:08

a psychology program when I don't know if I'm committed

46:10

as opposed to maybe I'll just take a class

46:13

in psychology, just one and

46:15

see if I like it.

46:17

Yeah, I wanted to ask you, Kayla,

46:19

in the therapy that you've had, has the

46:21

topic of anxiety.

46:23

Come up now? I

46:25

was always very focused on the

46:27

depression part of myself, or

46:30

I thought that was the most urgent

46:32

thing that needed to be addressed. We never really

46:34

got to the anxiety part.

46:37

I'm asking because I hear an

46:39

undercurrent of anxiety in almost

46:42

everything that you're talking about. By

46:45

definition, anxiety is a

46:47

fear of an unspecified,

46:49

non immediate, vague kind of dread

46:52

of something bad will happen. It's

46:54

not an articulated what that bad might be.

46:57

It's not something that's looming this second,

47:00

it might happen later or tomorrow or

47:02

next week. And that feeling of

47:04

dread is the

47:07

thing that people interpret

47:09

sometimes as fear. But one

47:11

of the biggest responses people have to anxiety

47:14

is avoidance. They avoid

47:16

the things that make them anxious.

47:19

And you have a pattern of avoidance in

47:21

your life, the avoiding getting too close

47:23

to people by sharing truly what's

47:26

going on, Avoiding going after the things

47:28

you really really want, experiencing

47:31

the joy which you know is there

47:33

to be had in certain areas, because then

47:36

what if I get blindsided and

47:38

something goes wrong and there's no

47:40

indication anything going wrong in

47:43

your relationship with your fiance, Does

47:46

that resonate with you in any way, that there's

47:49

this undercurrent of anxiety that's been going

47:51

on in your life as well?

47:53

Spot On, It's even funny, I'm

47:55

like trying to convince my fiance that

47:57

I don't want to have a bridal party because I

48:00

don't even want to like offend people by

48:02

not like choosing them as bridesmaids.

48:04

My go to is just to avoid even having

48:06

a bridal party.

48:07

So it's interesting you bring that up because

48:10

It manifests.

48:11

So many different ways in my life.

48:14

And it's important to label

48:17

it anxiety because if you don't label

48:19

it anxiety, then you start

48:21

coming up with rationales for it

48:23

and justifying them. So why

48:25

I'm saying that, I want you to note

48:27

this idea of calling things anxiety

48:31

when it fits that pattern, because then you

48:33

at least know, no, that's not necessarily

48:35

a real danger, that's

48:37

anxiety.

48:39

I think I've been focused on depression

48:41

as the driver that I neglected

48:44

to see, you know, anxiety in the passenger

48:46

seat.

48:46

You did that with the kids too, that I'm

48:49

afraid to have kids because I might

48:51

do things to them that would repeat

48:55

what my parents did with me. I'm afraid

48:57

to entertain

49:00

the idea of psychology because I don't know

49:02

if I'm committed to it yet. There's

49:05

a reason for everything that you come up

49:07

with. But underneath that, what

49:09

happens is, and you've used this word several times today,

49:11

self sabotage in

49:14

the name of self protection when

49:18

it doesn't actually protect you, does

49:21

not keep you safe. It keeps

49:23

you on high alert. As guy was saying,

49:25

that's the anxiety. You're always on high alert,

49:29

and you come by that Honestly, you've had

49:31

experiences that might have

49:33

taught you that you need to be accept

49:36

Now you're in a different situation, you

49:38

don't need to be in high alert around

49:41

those things anymore.

49:44

And the last thing about anxiety is it's

49:46

exhausting because

49:50

you have to do these mental gymnastics and these

49:52

accountings and these rationales and explaining

49:54

and avoiding. It just keeps you very busy.

49:57

And the other function of it is that while

49:59

you're spinning in your head, you don't really have

50:01

room to connect with your fiance,

50:04

maybe with your friends, maybe

50:06

with yourself in

50:08

the ways that I think would

50:11

create a much richer experience

50:13

for you.

50:15

Yeah, I agree.

50:21

So, Kayla, we have some advice for you.

50:23

Here's the first part. As

50:25

I said, I was concerned that you

50:28

are very self critical and

50:30

that you need to improve your self compassion

50:32

skills and practice. What

50:35

would like you to do is would like you to make

50:37

a list of the ten greatest

50:39

self critical hits that play

50:41

out in your head, things

50:44

like I was a weirdo, or

50:47

it's shameful that I stayed in a relationship

50:50

that was abusive, what's wrong with

50:52

me? Whatever the narratives are,

50:54

write out the full sentences of

50:57

the really harsh statements

50:59

that you make for yourself. So make

51:02

that list of ten, and then for each one,

51:04

present the self compassionate option.

51:07

The self compassionate option for I was

51:09

a weirdo in school was I

51:12

was depressed and I felt

51:14

very alone, and I didn't have anyone to

51:17

talk to, and I didn't connect with people,

51:19

and I was really unhappy. Again, self

51:21

compassion is about how you would talk to a

51:23

friend or what's somebody who really cared

51:25

about you, how they would frame that rather

51:28

than the self critical way. So that's

51:30

what would like you to do. Ten of

51:33

the most self critical statements and then

51:35

ten self compassionate takes on

51:38

those exact same statements.

51:41

And we think that will help with the next part of the assignment,

51:43

which is when you can have a little more self

51:45

compassion for yourself, you might

51:48

be able to start to connect

51:50

with other people in a deeper

51:52

way. And we want you to

51:55

start with your fiance. We would like

51:57

you to talk to him about

51:59

some of the things that you haven't shared with him yet.

52:02

For example, when that thing happened where

52:05

he said he was joking about you left the dishes in the

52:07

sink, and you immediately got up and said,

52:09

Oh, I'll take care of that right away. You said,

52:12

he sort of understands where that comes from, Yeah,

52:14

but not completely. We

52:16

would like you to tell

52:19

him that you have been holding

52:21

back a little bit because you have a

52:23

lot of shame around some parts

52:26

of your life that happened before you

52:28

met him, and that as you start this marriage

52:31

together, you really

52:34

want to practice being more

52:37

connected and open and

52:41

you value so much how much he

52:43

cares for you and the trust that you

52:45

have with him, and so you want

52:48

to share with him something

52:50

that feels very delicate to you, and

52:53

then tell him a little bit about your

52:55

childhood and what that was like what

52:57

you shared with us today, and maybe tell

52:59

him a little little bit about how much shame

53:01

you have around staying with

53:04

this person in

53:06

your early twenties that

53:08

still haunts you today

53:11

and that you're really working on that, but

53:13

you just want him to know that it's there because

53:15

you want to get closer with him, share with us

53:17

what it felt like to share

53:20

this with him, and then also

53:22

how he responded to you. And

53:24

then the third thing we'd like you to do is

53:28

that we noticed again that you are a

53:30

master of coming up with reasons

53:34

that you can't do or have the things

53:36

that you want. And

53:39

you talked about how much you would

53:41

have liked to have pursued psychology or at least

53:43

explored it if finance was not

53:45

the mandate in your household, and

53:48

so we want you to really have the

53:50

space to explore that. And that doesn't mean you have

53:52

to commit to a graduate program when you have

53:54

no idea if you really want to do this yet.

53:57

But what we'd like you to do is to take a class.

54:00

We want you to sign up for a psychology

54:02

class. There's probably one at

54:04

your local community college. There

54:07

might be one online. It might

54:09

be more fun if you go in person. But

54:12

as you're doing your yoga and your therapy

54:14

and all of the other things you're doing to heal,

54:17

we'd like you to invest a little bit of time in

54:19

your joy. And what you can learn

54:21

from this experience is you might say, oh,

54:23

you know what, I don't actually like that after

54:26

all, but it inspires me to

54:28

think about what I might enjoy more than

54:30

finance. Maybe it's not psychology. Or

54:33

you might say I really love this. I

54:36

might want to take a second class, or I might

54:38

want to get some brochures about graduate school

54:41

or whatever it is, but

54:43

either way, it will give you some useful

54:45

information that is coming from your

54:47

desires, your wishes, and

54:50

not some external mandate

54:52

that you've been living with for a very long time.

54:55

So you want to give some space to

54:57

your desires.

54:59

One lost. We were thinking also

55:01

about the anxiety that you have, especially

55:04

around experiencing joy. So

55:06

we would like this week you

55:09

to catch, if possible,

55:11

five times that you are thinking

55:14

about things that could bring you joy

55:17

in a way that's full of dread and

55:19

avoidance. For example, how can I have

55:21

a bridal shower. I'll alienate one of

55:23

my friends, so I can't do

55:25

that. You have that thought, all

55:27

you need to do is go, okay, that's an anxious thought.

55:29

That's not a realistic concern. That's anxiety.

55:33

Or I can't have kids because

55:35

I might end up perting them in some way as

55:37

a parent, So let's just avoid having kids all

55:39

together. Any one of those things

55:42

that comes up that are things

55:44

that could bring you joy or pleasure

55:47

and the dread comes up about them just

55:49

to label them anxiety.

55:52

This is my anxiety around

55:54

joy. We want you to do in that way so

55:56

that when you have anxiety around joy

55:58

and you take it less seriously as a threat

56:01

and were like, here's me doing this anxiety

56:03

around joy thing, and so that's why

56:06

we want you to catch it as much as possible this

56:08

week.

56:09

Okay, it sounds really good.

56:10

I didn't really realize

56:13

to an extent that it was almost controlling

56:15

my life. So even

56:17

just recognizing that already just makes me

56:19

feel a lot better and a

56:21

little hopeful. So I'm definitely excited

56:23

to do these tasks that you both

56:26

mentioned.

56:27

Well, we're very excited for you to try

56:29

these things this week, and we look forward to hearing

56:31

how it goes.

56:32

Yeah, thank you or thank you guys so much for

56:34

having me on the show. It's been a pleasure.

56:42

So I was really surprised when

56:44

we started a session today and

56:47

the first thing Kayla told us was that

56:49

she not only was engaged, but had

56:51

been dating this very seemingly

56:54

emotionally available man for two years.

56:57

And it seems so strange

57:00

before we got to know her, but once

57:02

we started unpacking some of

57:04

this, it actually made sense

57:07

that it is so terrifying

57:10

for her to even voice something

57:13

good in her life that she just

57:15

pushes it down. She couldn't tell us

57:18

this good thing had happened in her life.

57:20

She couldn't write it down until

57:22

we actually were in session, and she had to tell us so

57:24

that we could do the session with her right.

57:26

It was really difficult for her to add that in her

57:28

letter and say, oh, but things are good in this

57:31

area because she has so much anxiety and dread

57:33

about that going south at some point.

57:35

The going south part is the part that really

57:37

trips her up. That I can't

57:40

hold to tightly onto

57:42

the things that bring me joy because

57:44

something will go wrong. I can't

57:47

think about having kids because I might repeat

57:49

the patterns of my parents. I can't think

57:52

about my bridal shower, even

57:54

though that might be really fun, because I might offend

57:56

someone. I can't think about this career

57:58

that I might want to have because I'm

58:00

supposed to do finance. And it's interesting that when

58:02

you brought up anxiety that seemed to really resonate

58:04

with her, that she hadn't thought about it

58:06

that way. And that's so common I think

58:08

for anybody listening, this idea that

58:10

when we're spinning around something or we're perseverating

58:13

on something, and we focus on something

58:16

almost obsessively, that

58:18

there's something else that

58:20

we are afraid of. And

58:22

when we get to that fear, it becomes much

58:25

less scary. If we can just name

58:27

the fear, the anxiety goes

58:29

down.

58:30

I love by the way her phrasing of I thought

58:32

depression was driving this. I didn't realize

58:34

anxiety was in the passenger seat. As

58:36

you know, Laurie, those two go on road trips

58:39

together all the time.

58:40

They're fast friends. Yes, so

58:42

we gave her a bunch of things to think about this week

58:44

and to do this week, and I am really looking

58:46

forward to hearing how that all goes for her, as

58:49

am I.

58:55

You listening to dea therapists. We'll

58:57

be back after a short break, So

59:11

Laurie, we heard back from Kayla. Let's hear how

59:13

she did this week.

59:15

Hey Laurie, Hey guy, it's Kayla.

59:17

I'm here to talk about the task that you

59:19

have both given me too complete

59:21

over the past week. Vers One guy maybe

59:24

wanted me to make a list of ten self critical

59:27

hits with the self compassion

59:30

component, and I

59:32

wanted to share one that I

59:34

had written out. So the self critical

59:36

hit is I should have never gotten

59:39

into a relationship with Jay, And

59:42

the self compassion component that

59:44

I wrote out was I have always felt

59:46

like the outcasts in society. Being

59:48

with a popular guy like Jay gave me more

59:51

confidence and maybe believe I

59:53

was worthy of love even if it didn't

59:55

work out. I think writing

59:57

that out, I try to imagine

59:59

myself what my friend would say to me, but

1:00:01

I really try to believe that it was something

1:00:04

I would say to myself. So

1:00:06

I definitely think this exercise really

1:00:09

really challenged me and enjoyed, you

1:00:12

know, sort of writing out the self compassion

1:00:15

components.

1:00:16

You know.

1:00:16

The second thing you would have requested was

1:00:18

to connect with my fancy more. And

1:00:22

I talked to him about everything, including

1:00:26

what it was like an elementary school for me, and

1:00:30

sort of more about what happened in

1:00:32

the relationship with Jay, and

1:00:35

to my surprise, but probably not to Laurie

1:00:37

or guy surprised, his response

1:00:39

is sort of like, you know, I wish you had told me sooner.

1:00:42

We were able to have a conversation about

1:00:44

it, and I feel pretty

1:00:46

good after sharing with him,

1:00:48

so I think it's something I'm going

1:00:50

to continue going forward. The

1:00:53

third thing, Laurie, I know you have requested

1:00:56

that I sign up for a psychology class.

1:01:00

Unfortunately I have not done that yet. I

1:01:02

just not

1:01:05

for me. I can mentally

1:01:07

get myself to do right now, but

1:01:11

I feel hopeful that it is something I will

1:01:13

do one day. So

1:01:15

I just really want to thank you both for taking

1:01:18

the time to speak with me. Really

1:01:21

put a lot of things into perspective. I made

1:01:23

me think.

1:01:24

About a lot of different things. So I

1:01:26

hope you both take care.

1:01:31

So we give people a lot to do every

1:01:33

week because we only have one session with

1:01:35

them, And

1:01:38

with the first two tests that we gave Kayla, it

1:01:40

sounds like she did beautifully. She got

1:01:42

out of her shame and went into a place of

1:01:44

compassion with some of the

1:01:47

narratives that she had been carrying around,

1:01:49

and she was able to

1:01:51

talk to her fiance and

1:01:54

start to connect with him

1:01:56

in a different way without hiding

1:01:59

some of these parts of her

1:02:01

past that felt so shameful

1:02:03

to her. And I think that's all very positive.

1:02:07

But when it came to the other two tasks around

1:02:09

signing up for the psychology class and identifying

1:02:12

her anxiety around joy, she

1:02:14

seems to have struggled with those two.

1:02:16

And I want our listeners to understand

1:02:19

that when we give these multi component

1:02:22

tasks, it's for a reason,

1:02:25

because things are always

1:02:27

connected, and so the

1:02:29

idea of the psychology class was not well.

1:02:31

Try psychology was a

1:02:33

symbolic way to step out

1:02:35

of her parents' expectations and do

1:02:37

the thing that she had trouble advocating

1:02:40

for herself when she was younger,

1:02:43

and the task around the

1:02:45

anxiety around joy was

1:02:48

an important task also to create

1:02:50

a separation between the previous

1:02:53

history that she had of really

1:02:56

struggling with anxiety but thinking that

1:02:58

actually her desire and her wishes

1:03:00

and her wants were problematic like having children,

1:03:03

as opposed to realizing that that was about anxiety

1:03:06

and they're all connected. So

1:03:08

that first part of leaning into

1:03:10

the engagement more and being

1:03:12

more self compassionate is

1:03:15

something she did well. But I hope, Kaylor,

1:03:17

if you're listening to this, I would

1:03:19

urge you to pick up

1:03:21

those other two tasks and do

1:03:24

them if you can, because they,

1:03:26

together with the first two, which

1:03:28

we hope you'll keep working on, as you said, together

1:03:31

will help you really change

1:03:34

the old patterns that tend

1:03:37

to be dominant in our lives when we've had them

1:03:39

for many years, and we need a multi prompt

1:03:42

approach to really break out

1:03:44

of them. And I hope if you can do all of

1:03:46

those things, it would really help you move

1:03:48

forward. In a really substantial way.

1:03:54

Next week, we're checking in with Doug,

1:03:57

who struggled with a fear of intimacy after

1:03:59

an emotional scarring relationship, to

1:04:01

hear how he's doing one year later.

1:04:04

It's really hard for me to open

1:04:06

up to him because every

1:04:08

time in the past I've opened up about my feelings,

1:04:10

it's either bend, met with rejection or

1:04:12

met with OCD. So it's really hard for me

1:04:14

to trust that I can

1:04:17

have a safe person to open up too.

1:04:19

If you're enjoying our podcast, don't

1:04:21

forget to subscribe for free so that you don't

1:04:23

miss any episodes, and please help

1:04:25

support Dear Therapists by telling your friends

1:04:27

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1:04:30

Your reviews really help people to find the show.

1:04:33

If you have a dilemma you'd like to discuss with us,

1:04:35

email us at Laurie and Guy

1:04:38

at iHeartMedia dot com.

1:04:41

Our executive producer is Noel

1:04:43

Brown. We're produced and edited

1:04:45

by Josh Fisher, additional editing

1:04:47

support by Helena Rosen, John

1:04:50

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1:04:52

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1:04:55

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1:04:57

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1:05:00

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1:05:02

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