0:03

I'm Laurie Gottlieb. I'm the author of

0:05

Maybe You Should Talk to Someone, and I write

0:08

the Dear Therapists advice column for the Atlantic.

0:10

And I'm Guy Winch. I'm the author of

0:13

Emotional First Aid, and I write the Dear

0:15

Guy advice column for Ted. And

0:17

this is Deo Therapists.

0:19

Each week we invite you into a real session

0:21

where we help people confront the problems in their

0:24

lives and then give them actionable advice

0:26

and have them report back to let us know what happened

0:29

when they did what we suggested.

0:30

So sit back and welcome to

0:32

today's session.

0:34

This week, a man whose wife of forty

0:37

years has passed away wonders how to grieve

0:39

while also moving forward in a new relationship.

0:42

She would say, in an accusatory

0:45

way, You simply haven't had

0:48

enough time. You haven't stopped grieving. But

0:50

this was an excuse to

0:52

put some distance between us.

0:55

First, A quick note therapist is for

0:57

informational purposes only. It does not constitute

0:59

medical or psychological advice, and it is not a substitute

1:02

for professional health care advice, diagnosis,

1:04

or treatment. By submitting a letter, you are agreeing

1:06

to let iHeartMedia use it in part or

1:08

in full, and we may edit it for length and clarity.

1:11

In the sessions you'll hear, all names have been changed

1:13

for the privacy of our guests.

1:18

Hi Laurie, Hi Guy.

1:20

So what are we going to be talking about today?

1:23

Today? We're going to be talking about grief.

1:26

And here's the letter, Dear

1:28

therapists. I lost my wife almost

1:31

three years ago. We would have been married

1:33

forty years on our next anniversary.

1:35

For the last one and a half years, I've been involved

1:38

with a wonderful woman whom I'm grown

1:40

to love, but who lives twelve hundred miles

1:42

away. Although we talk on the phone

1:45

twice daily, we get to spend time with

1:47

one another just one week in every

1:49

five I am going stir

1:51

crazy living by myself for the first

1:53

time in my life. My depression gets

1:55

deeper with every passing week, and I can't

1:57

imagine living this way in the years ahead.

2:00

And I've been retired for several

2:02

years, but I do host meetup group

2:04

walks and pickleball events. I also

2:06

volunteer some of my time to a literacy

2:08

organization. Every hour I

2:10

spend at home seems like days

2:13

I'm in therapy, but the results have been limited.

2:15

I would be very receptive to any advice

2:18

you can offer. Thank you, Richard.

2:21

So, first of all, I can understand

2:24

how hard this is on Richard. He's

2:26

been married for forty years, he

2:28

lost his wife, and he's really trying to

2:30

adjust to a new normal. And I

2:32

think that people imagine

2:35

that somehow grief goes away, and it doesn't.

2:37

So it's been three years. He's going

2:39

to miss his wife for the rest of his

2:42

life. The question is how

2:44

can he hold on to

2:46

some connection to his wife and

2:49

also not move on, but move

2:51

forward in some way so he can enjoy

2:54

the rest of the time that he has.

2:56

I completely agree. It seems like he's thinking

2:58

in this way that I just have to get used

3:00

to being alone, and

3:03

I have to get used to being without someone.

3:05

And in part, he was in a long distance

3:07

relationship in which he was alone most of the

3:09

time. But I don't think

3:11

he has to get used to being miserable,

3:14

and it sounds like the long distance relationship

3:16

is making him miserable. So I'm curious

3:18

about the choice of the long distance relationship

3:20

and why he chose to get into that and how

3:23

that even came about.

3:24

Yeah, so let's go talk to him and see how we can help.

3:28

You're listening to Dear Therapists for my Heart

3:30

Radio. We'll be back after a short break.

3:40

I'm Laurie Gottlieb.

3:42

And I'm Guy Wench and this is Dear

3:44

Therapists.

3:47

So, Hi Richard, welcome to our show.

3:49

Hi Guy and Laurie, thanks for inviting me.

3:51

You're very welcome. And first are condolences

3:54

for your loss. Thank you,

3:56

And we would like to hear about your wife.

3:59

Just tell us the about her, about

4:01

the relationship.

4:03

Yeah, we met. I was a grad student

4:05

and was on an internship and this

4:08

was nineteen seventy eight, and we got married in nineteen

4:10

eighty one. Michelle died in

4:13

twenty twenty September, so in six

4:15

months would have been our fortieth anniversary.

4:18

And we have one child who's thirty

4:20

three. And it was a wonderful marriage

4:23

and tough at first. I was very

4:25

young, she's four years older. But

4:28

it grew to be a wonderful marriage and it

4:30

just got better and better, and we

4:32

both retired. She retired

4:35

and then encouraged me to retire, which

4:37

I did so I thought that might

4:39

be difficult, but it was wonderful.

4:42

It was really wonderful.

4:44

How old were you both when you first

4:46

met?

4:47

When we first met, I was twenty two, Michelle

4:49

was twenty six.

4:51

What was tough at the beginning.

4:54

I was very young. I didn't have

4:56

a lot of experience. I had a college

4:58

girlfriend, still

5:00

didn't know how to be in relationship. Michelle

5:03

being a woman and being several years

5:05

older, I

5:08

think she had to teach me

5:10

how to be a good spouse. And

5:13

it took several years, and our son

5:15

wasn't orange till we

5:17

were married eight years. We did that intentionally,

5:20

and by then we had very

5:22

loving marriage.

5:23

You said you didn't have a lot of experience in relationship

5:26

and you were very young. What was it about

5:28

Michelle that made you want to

5:30

commit to this person for life?

5:32

She left in my jokes, and

5:35

she was very funny, and she was also very

5:38

worldly, more so than I was. She

5:41

knew about art, she knew about Actually

5:44

the two of us could run a Jeopardy board,

5:46

you know, kind of mutually exclusive. And

5:49

I love that she was intelligent. She

5:51

read the New York Times, so I that

5:53

was a very big deal.

5:56

So what you're describing is that

5:59

you were really good friends. You

6:01

really could have fun together.

6:04

You enjoyed the same things. You were really

6:06

sympatical in terms of your interests.

6:09

The fact that you said that we can both run a jeopardy

6:11

board, You're both interested in world

6:13

knowledge. It sounds like you

6:16

really enjoyed each other on

6:18

so many levels.

6:20

You know, we did. And she was also out in the working

6:22

world, which no one I knew was.

6:25

I was working with two other students who I also

6:27

went to undergraduate, and they were involved

6:29

with young women who were also students

6:32

or just getting established, and

6:35

she seemed so grown up and

6:38

confident. So that's

6:40

what attracted me to her.

6:42

Yeah, Richard, you said that Michelle

6:45

retired and then you retired as well.

6:47

Yes, tell us a little bit about how

6:49

you spent time during your retirement

6:51

and how that was for both of you.

6:54

Yeah. I mentioned that she died two

6:56

and a half years ago, and

6:59

she had lemonary issues, cardiac

7:01

issues. She was on oxygen

7:03

the last couple of years. I was essentially

7:05

her nurse, which is why I

7:08

also retired. But she

7:10

was very mobile. We'd made sure that I got

7:12

Michelle a mobile scooter and

7:15

a transport chair, so we had

7:17

a very active social life. First of

7:19

all, Michelle and I

7:21

every morning we have two dogs,

7:24

and in Michelle's last couple of years,

7:27

we would sit and have breakfast with

7:29

the dogs. And you would think a couple that

7:32

was married forty years wouldn't

7:35

have a lot to talk about, but it was

7:37

at least an hour more often too.

7:40

Well.

7:40

We were always friends getting

7:43

very emotional.

7:45

That sounds like such a beautiful relationship

7:47

where even forty years down the

7:49

line, you have a couple

7:52

of hours in the morning where you just want to talk

7:54

with each other and you don't run out of things to

7:56

say.

7:57

Yeah, yeah, I mean again. We

7:59

sometimes read the same books. Michel

8:02

and I were, even in this day and age, were

8:04

newspaper readers, but it wasn't

8:06

just about the news, but we were interested in

8:08

things outside of our own personal

8:11

experience. That was another commonality.

8:14

We were intellectually curious.

8:16

Did she have some time in retirement when she was healthy?

8:19

No, not really tell us

8:21

about when she got

8:23

sick and what happened and how you found

8:25

out.

8:26

Yeah, she always has some cardiac issues

8:28

and she was diabetic, and

8:31

it was just very difficult more and more

8:33

and more for her to breathe, to

8:37

the point where it was very hard

8:39

for using the equipment to

8:41

maintain a healthy level of oxygen,

8:44

but she persevered. Michelle

8:47

had a mobile oxygen device

8:50

that we took with us. But that's

8:52

one of the reasons she retired, and that's one of the reasons

8:55

I retired.

8:56

She said she always had cardiac issues

8:59

and pulmonary issues. How

9:01

early in the marriage did these

9:03

become a parent Did you know this from the

9:05

very beginning, or did these become a

9:07

parent later on?

9:09

Michelle had gestational diabetes and

9:11

she was told that it would return, and it

9:13

did, and she was on insulin, lots

9:16

of insulin. The pulmonary

9:18

issues every six months or so,

9:21

there was a hospital stay for

9:23

a few.

9:24

Days, even when you were in your twenties.

9:26

Yeah, yeah, yeah, and

9:28

it was undiagnosed, I mean

9:30

really undiagnosed. But they

9:33

just sent her home. And this happened time and

9:35

time again. It was not debilitating,

9:38

but maybe it started. Every couple

9:40

of years she said,

9:43

I need to go to the hospital, and she

9:45

would. Between the hospital visits

9:48

she was more or less fine.

9:50

She appeared healthy.

9:51

Did the two of you find that alarming that she

9:54

would end up in the hospital and you

9:56

had no idea what was causing this.

10:01

The doctors gave

10:04

us some false comfort. There's

10:06

nothing wrong with her. She did not

10:08

have a heart attack that we

10:10

could detect. They would

10:13

send her home and we would think that

10:15

was okay. But it did get

10:18

more and more frequent, and then her

10:20

symptoms started presenting themselves, but that

10:22

was into her fifties.

10:24

Probably nothing when there's something chronic

10:26

like that with as an emergency

10:29

and then things are okay. Then there's another emergency

10:31

of visit and things are okay. Over

10:34

the years, you kind of sometimes get used

10:36

to it. What was the point in which

10:38

you, at least for the first time, started

10:41

to think, oh, this

10:44

might be the beginning of the end.

10:46

Now, I

10:49

think Michelle and I both assume that

10:53

I would outlive her, but neither

10:57

of us expected or die when she did.

10:59

The hospital is it's got more and more frequent.

11:02

They diagnosed her with pulmonary hypertension.

11:05

It was prevax's COVID. The

11:08

last time she went to the hospital and I couldn't

11:10

see her, and she was

11:12

there for a few days in my town,

11:15

and then she went down to Miami because they had

11:17

equipment that they thought she would

11:19

need. They allowed me to see her for a couple

11:21

of hours, and then she went down to Miami.

11:24

Doctor Cole the day before she died, saying,

11:28

prepare for hospice care.

11:31

And I'd been through this with my dad.

11:33

I was a project manager in real life,

11:36

so I thought I just

11:38

went into that mode. I didn't feel sorry for

11:40

myself, and I was ready

11:42

to receive her and to

11:45

give her the same kind of care with the

11:48

help of hospice staff that

11:50

my father. I'd been through that before.

11:53

When they said hospice and you went into project

11:55

manager mode? Did you think it all

11:58

so there's no tree meant

12:00

for her and she's going to die?

12:02

Oh?

12:02

Yeah, because that's what hospice

12:05

is.

12:06

Yes, What was that like for you?

12:08

I didn't have time because I

12:10

think it was maybe twelve hours

12:13

before I got a call at

12:15

two in the morning and

12:18

the doctor said, I'm

12:20

sorry, she doesn't have long to live. I

12:23

think they tried me and I actually was

12:26

exhausted and I fell asleep. They tried me

12:28

about eleven PM and I slept

12:30

through it, and then they tried me at two

12:32

saying we tried to get in touch with you, and now

12:35

Michelle has only minutes. And

12:37

I stayed on the phone and they told me she had

12:40

passed.

12:40

So you didn't have a chance to speak

12:42

to her or to say goodbye to

12:45

her.

12:46

No, when Michelle was in the local

12:48

hospital before she was transferred, they

12:51

gave me a couple of hours with her,

12:53

and then the transport came,

12:56

and I didn't expect

12:59

that that would be the last time I saw Michelle.

13:01

Richard, I'm glad you said you were a project manager,

13:03

because part of what I'm hearing is

13:05

that in some of these most difficult moments

13:09

you went into project manager mode. There

13:11

were things to be done, like, oh, hospice,

13:14

been through that with my dad, know what to do, Let's

13:16

get on it. And it sounds like

13:18

you were in that mode, which was

13:21

useful to you because it was kind of protective.

13:24

I don't think you feel as much in

13:26

project manager mode as you

13:28

might if you were just present with what was going

13:31

on. And my question is,

13:33

at what point did

13:36

you stop being in project manager

13:39

mode and start to feel the

13:41

loss of what was happening

13:43

around you.

13:45

So two fifteen in the morning, I called my brother

13:48

and I'm in shock, and then he

13:50

called people. I didn't get any sleep, and

13:53

the next day I was

13:55

in the kitchen and you could see from

13:57

the kitchen into the living room where we used to be

14:00

every morning for a couple of hours,

14:03

and I absolutely broke

14:06

down. We were all in

14:08

lockdown, and I don't know where I would

14:10

have gone, but I felt trapped. But

14:14

because we were in lockdown, Michelle

14:16

and I had friends and

14:18

I had relatives who are actually working

14:20

from home, and they

14:23

wrote in a rotation. They

14:25

would talk to me after I walked the dogs at

14:27

seven am. And that's

14:30

how I survived for two

14:32

or three weeks. Of course, you know, even close friends

14:34

and family will do

14:36

that for only so long, but it really

14:39

really helped. I knew I would need

14:41

an abreathment group, and what am I going to do? I can't

14:43

leave the house a breathmen with a widower's

14:45

group, and I found an organization. It

14:48

became an online community of called

14:50

Stitch, and members would

14:52

host events, including bereavement

14:55

groups with a widowisch groups. That's

14:58

how I handled it, and that last did

15:00

for quite some time, and I got so

15:02

involved with Stitch and met so many people.

15:05

I think it was five or six hours a

15:07

day. I would be involved

15:09

in various events.

15:11

You mentioned that you called your brother first.

15:14

I'm curious about your son.

15:16

My son was living with us at the time. He

15:19

had his own medical issues. He was

15:21

recovering and he was living with

15:23

us. I forgot that.

15:26

How old was he He was thirty one.

15:29

How long was he with you after Michelle

15:31

died?

15:33

Michelle died September twenty

15:35

twenty, and he was with me till

15:38

April. Yeah,

15:40

we had a fraught relationship. There

15:43

was a history of that, but I

15:45

have to say we did not provide the support

15:49

for each other that we should have.

15:52

So while you were spending about

15:54

five hours a day with Stitch

15:57

at the bereavement.

15:58

Group, I stopped attending the readment

16:00

groups after a few weeks. It

16:03

was very social, there were games and chats

16:05

and anyway, meeting people

16:07

from all over Canada, Britain,

16:10

Australia and all over the US.

16:12

And what was happening with your son? What

16:14

was he doing with his grief since you were

16:16

living together.

16:18

My son was uncommunicative before

16:22

and after

16:25

Michelle's passing. He

16:27

might have felt the same thing, but I almost felt

16:30

more alone, if it makes sense, with

16:33

him in the house, and that had been

16:35

for a.

16:35

While because of the disconnect emotionally

16:38

between the two.

16:39

Right. I had a discussion with my wife.

16:41

I said, you

16:44

know that our son

16:46

and I will be estranged, and

16:50

Michelle said she wasn't surprised.

16:53

It seemed like she accepted that that had

16:55

been the case for a while. My

16:57

son was forced to come home because

16:59

of his ailments, and

17:01

now that's not the case. We

17:05

actually have a good relationship that we haven't

17:07

had since he was maybe in his early

17:10

teens. And we talked to each other at

17:12

least once every

17:15

couple of weeks. And he came here for

17:17

a family reunion, and I'm going down

17:19

to visit in July. Probably that's

17:22

certainly helping.

17:24

What changed, do you think maybe

17:26

in.

17:27

The wake of Michelle's death,

17:31

Maybe because we knew

17:33

we just had one

17:36

another in our nuclear family,

17:39

it was just better. I mean, it was

17:41

just close. It was in a relationship

17:44

for a while through stitch. By the way, he met

17:46

my girlfriend when he came back for the last family

17:48

reunion. That could have gone either way, but

17:50

they really clicked. They baked together, they prepared

17:53

for a brunch that I always host every year. I

17:56

can't tell you how wonderful it is to

17:59

almost be united. And I don't

18:01

know what to attribute it to, but maybe

18:05

after a delay Michelle's passing.

18:08

You said you've been highly involved

18:10

with stitch literally hours and hours a

18:12

day, and then you'll

18:15

online socializing and getting

18:17

support in that way. And you said you even met

18:20

this girlfriend.

18:20

Right, Well, we broke up three months

18:22

ago after nearly two year relationship.

18:26

Who broke up with whom?

18:28

Ostensibly I did, but my

18:31

opinion had been a toxic relationship

18:33

that I was grasping onto because

18:38

I was used to being in a relationship,

18:41

and she would want to break

18:43

off several times, and I would beg my

18:45

way back. My younger self would

18:47

not believe that I did. That. I

18:50

wanted to move up to where she lived,

18:53

and she nicksed that

18:55

that's what I wanted, and

18:57

that's what I wanted because that is what I was.

19:00

You wanted to be in the same city with her,

19:03

yes, and she did not want

19:05

that.

19:05

I wanted to be in the same house as

19:08

Yes.

19:10

And you said she kept trying to break up with you. Why

19:12

is that?

19:14

I would be a bad boyfriend.

19:18

For example, I try

19:20

to censor myself, but I

19:22

would talk too much about Michelle

19:26

sometimes and I

19:29

would be very nostalgic.

19:34

We saw each other one week and five. That

19:36

was a huge issue for me. This

19:38

was all to the un end for me, which

19:41

was cohabitation. She would

19:43

yell at something I did. One

19:45

time, I had a meltdown when we were preparing

19:48

for one of these reunion brunches, and

19:51

she threatened to leave. She threatened to buy plane

19:53

tickets. I apologize immediately,

19:57

but there was no flexibility,

20:00

there was no tolerance there.

20:03

So you're essentially grieving

20:07

the loss of Michelle when you

20:09

meet this woman of a stitch

20:12

and you're within the first year

20:15

of grief when you get into a relationship

20:17

with her, which is why you're still processing

20:20

these things and still talking about it, because

20:22

you're still working through the

20:25

initial stages at least of

20:27

grief. And she doesn't sound like she was supportive

20:30

of that or sufficiently understanding

20:33

of that. That's where you were.

20:35

On that point, she

20:37

would say, but in an accusatory

20:40

way, in my opinion, she would

20:42

say, you simply haven't

20:45

had enough time. You haven't stopped

20:47

grieving. You need to grieve more. But this was

20:50

an excuse to put

20:52

some distance between us.

20:54

Yes, but she's also correct in that you

20:57

were still grieving, and I'm not saying that you

20:59

needed to have more time

21:01

to grieve outside the relationship.

21:03

You can do both, you know, if she were more

21:05

supportive. You could have done the grieving

21:08

while you were with her.

21:10

I broke it off because she said

21:12

I could not live with her. As abusive

21:15

as the relationship was,

21:17

in my opinion, I would have done

21:19

anything to move

21:21

to where she was in her house right,

21:24

And that's why I broke it off.

21:26

So when Michelle dies, the first

21:28

entity that's there for you is

21:31

Stitch because you spend hours on it,

21:33

you socialize on it, you play games

21:35

on it. You're distracted from

21:37

things in a good way when you're on it. And

21:39

that was a real bridge for you because

21:42

your son's in the home, but you're not supporting one

21:44

another, at least not at that point. And

21:46

then you meet your ex girlfriend and your

21:48

hopes are like, wow, if this works out,

21:51

I can maybe move and we can live together and

21:53

I can not be alone. I can have

21:55

that companionship again, I can have that friendship

21:58

again. And then when she

22:00

says, actually, no, that's not going to happen

22:03

because we're not going to live together, that's

22:05

when you realize, well, okay, I've been putting up with a

22:07

lot with the hopes of that happening. But

22:09

if that's not happening, then really,

22:12

I don't want to be here because I

22:14

feel lonely a lot, and I want

22:17

to be with someone full time.

22:20

And then in your letter you indicate

22:22

that part of you thinks maybe you need to come

22:25

to terms with being alone or learning

22:28

not to be dependent on a

22:30

relationship. And that seems so

22:32

at odds with what all your experience

22:34

has been, which has been like I really

22:36

need this and much happier when I have it. Tell

22:39

us about that? Why that thought about maybe

22:42

I don't need another relationship, I just need to

22:44

get used to the loneliness. Where

22:46

did that come from?

22:48

I think I got in retrospect, involved

22:51

myself with my girlfriend, perhaps

22:53

for the wrong reasons. It became evident

22:56

four months in that

23:00

it could turn toxic, and I kept convincing

23:02

myself if only I did this, if

23:04

only I said this, if only I didn't say

23:06

this, if only I could be this way, and

23:08

it went on and on and on. I pinned

23:11

all my hopes on

23:13

that relationship. But to answer your question,

23:16

I thought that was a problem. That

23:18

was a problem that I

23:21

needed someone who was probably

23:24

not a good match for me.

23:27

You said you felt you needed someone, and

23:29

I stayed in a very toxic relationship

23:31

because I needed someone so much. Maybe

23:34

that's a problem that I need someone

23:36

in that way. And I'm saying to you, it's a problem

23:38

that you stay in a toxic relationship

23:41

because you're afraid to leave it and be

23:43

alone. It's not a problem that

23:46

you fundamentally feel like you need to be

23:48

with someone.

23:49

Yeah, to illustrate the problem.

23:51

Within days of the breakup, I

23:54

was on four paid

23:57

dating sites and already dating

24:00

and it got me out of the house

24:03

five seven dates dates a week,

24:05

sometimes to a day.

24:07

That's you in project manager mode, you know, starting

24:09

to hit all the bases and do this and get

24:11

onto it. You're a good project manager, so you

24:14

don't just going to do one app and wait

24:16

for things to happen, because that can take a long time. It's

24:18

competency to get yourself a all for I'm

24:21

still not sure I see where

24:23

the problem is. You're saying, well,

24:25

I did it with a bit too much desperation, perhaps

24:28

a bit too much intensity.

24:30

Perhaps all right, the problem

24:33

is that I

24:35

wasn't comfortable being by myself

24:38

at home. I'm not comfortable being with myself.

24:41

That is the problem. I always

24:43

have to be doing something outside

24:46

the home always.

24:47

It's interesting you went into project management

24:49

mode during Michelle being transported

24:52

and then she had to go into hospice,

24:55

and then you break up with this girlfriend

24:57

because she doesn't want you to cohabitate with her

24:59

and move there, and immediately

25:01

you're on these other dating sites. So

25:04

you're doing all the project management stuff. But when

25:06

you do that, what happens

25:08

is it takes you away

25:11

from your feelings. It

25:13

takes up all of the

25:16

real estate in your mind, so

25:18

there's no room for

25:20

you to feel the feelings. And

25:24

so you then say, Okay, the problem

25:26

is I can't be alone. But

25:28

I think the problem is you

25:31

can't seem to grieve. And

25:35

because when you're alone, that

25:38

is when the grief will come up. When

25:40

you're not in busy mode, that's

25:43

when the loss is present.

25:46

So you'll do anything to

25:49

avoid feeling those feelings.

25:51

So I think we have two separate things that you're

25:53

conflating. You're saying, I think it's

25:55

a problem that I want to be with someone. That's

25:58

not a problem. That's natural that

26:00

you would want to be with someone. The

26:03

problem is that you

26:05

won't allow yourself to grieve.

26:08

I don't know how to do that. I don't

26:10

think I properly because I

26:12

didn't know how grieve the loss of Michelle

26:15

or the loss of this relationship.

26:19

Friends of mine would say, don't date right away,

26:22

grieve the loss. I said, what does that look

26:24

like? Well, I'm in

26:26

another relationship. After twenty eight

26:28

first dates and three second dates.

26:32

I found someone. It's a good thing,

26:34

yes, but I'm kind of second guessing myself.

26:36

She's wonderful. But if it

26:38

was too fast and too much, I mean, I'm there

26:40

half the week, she lives an hour away.

26:43

I want to go back to what he said just a minute earlier.

26:45

Yeah, he said, what does it look like to grieve? I don't

26:47

know what that looks like. I don't write

26:49

because you do keep yourself busy

26:52

in order to not feel it. I

26:54

think you feel it when you're home, because, as

26:57

Laurie said, when you're not busy is when

26:59

your mind has time to actually start dealing

27:02

with the loss of Michelle. And

27:04

I'm sure that that makes you feel incredibly

27:07

sad when you're home. How

27:10

much do you think about Michelle? When you think about

27:12

her? Do you try and get busy

27:14

or distract yourself? Do you sit with those feelings?

27:17

Do you cry? Do you talk to her?

27:19

Do you memorialize her

27:21

in some way. Do you sit where you used

27:23

to sit in the morning and think of her in the mornings?

27:27

How and when is she occupying your

27:29

thoughts?

27:30

I'd see something in the house, of course, it was

27:32

our house that would remind me about Michelle.

27:35

It's only pleasant feelings.

27:37

So you don't feel sad in that moment when you're

27:39

thinking of her. You're not thinking of missing

27:42

her. You're not feeling the loss of her.

27:44

You're just having a nostalgic

27:46

moment and it feels pleasant. There's

27:49

no sadness, less and less.

27:53

And tell the truth,

27:55

I think it's more not

27:58

wanting to be here

28:01

alone, not in a relationship,

28:04

more than grieving for my wife.

28:07

At this point two and a half years later.

28:09

I wonder if it's hard to tell how

28:12

much is not wanting

28:14

to be alone and how much

28:16

is missing Michelle,

28:19

because it sounds like you really never

28:21

did the grieving. You

28:25

never let yourself have the time to just

28:27

feel whatever you feel

28:31

missing this person that was

28:34

integrated in every way into your

28:36

life for the last forty years.

28:40

So there's no one way, there's no right way,

28:42

there's no kind of formula, there's

28:44

no way you have to feel or should feel.

28:48

It's just that I don't think you've felt

28:51

in whatever way that would be for you, and

28:55

I think that that's why you keep

28:58

second guessing. That's

29:00

why you start to say, I'm

29:02

not sure what I'm doing or about this

29:04

current relationship. But

29:07

I think that you're going to need to feel

29:10

some of those feelings that you've been blocking

29:14

so that you can feel a little

29:17

bit more free. And that doesn't mean

29:19

that you moved on. We say

29:21

with grief, you move forward, but

29:23

that person that you've lost

29:26

is always there with you in

29:28

some way, it's integrated into this new normal

29:30

for you. And I

29:33

just don't think you can integrate that until

29:35

you've felt the feelings. When

29:38

you say I have these pleasant memories,

29:41

I imagine that it feels good because

29:43

they were pleasant, but also sad because

29:47

she's not there to have those two hour

29:49

breakfasts with. Then she's not there to share

29:52

your life with and to read the paper with and

29:54

to have those conversations with that you loved

29:56

having with her. Even

29:59

right now, as we're talking and you're choking up

30:01

a little bit, that

30:05

tells us that the feelings are there. What's

30:09

it like to just sit here with us right

30:11

now and to feel a little bit

30:13

of that choking up that sadness.

30:16

Yeah, I'm feeling sad now. And

30:18

of course I kind of

30:21

thought that my grieving was over

30:24

after some period of time and I got more

30:26

involved with other things. And of course, as

30:28

I described to you, at first,

30:30

it was horrible, and I relied on other people

30:32

and we had breakfast together every morning. We

30:35

spend a retirement that I would

30:37

think would be difficult was the best thing.

30:39

What you just said was so important that you

30:42

imagine retirement with each

30:44

other. Yeah, And it turned out

30:46

that retirement you said was the best thing,

30:49

but you didn't get to have that because she died

30:51

so soon. Yes, and so what's it

30:53

like to sit with that that loss?

30:58

So I see it all over your face, But

31:01

I don't know if you're connecting

31:03

with the sadness.

31:05

What I could say about that is I'm

31:07

looking for that again and

31:10

someone else. That's how it feels.

31:12

I think that's what you do with

31:15

the sadness you think of Michelle, A

31:17

nostalgic feeling comes up. It's the morning

31:19

you think of something. There's an automatic

31:22

sadness that goes with that because

31:24

she's not here. And I think when you

31:27

start to feel it, you have this reflexive,

31:29

quick, instinctive response

31:32

to okay, project, manage, do something,

31:34

and then you immediately go to I need

31:36

to find that, so let me do twenty eight dates

31:38

in twenty eight days. You do not let

31:42

the sadness that's inside similar

31:45

even a little bit. You distract

31:47

yourself away from it. And what Laurie

31:49

and I are saying is that if you weren't

31:51

in a rush to convert the nostalgic

31:54

feeling or the lonely feeling or the

31:56

missing her feeling into

31:58

let me find a replication, we find a distraction,

32:01

then you would just have to sit with

32:04

a loss, and that's where the grieving happens.

32:07

And that's what you're trying to run away from.

32:10

Essentially all the time.

32:12

I am running away from that, which in

32:14

my mind, I don't know how to do with

32:17

it. I don't know what to do, how to

32:20

use my time alone for

32:22

that purpose.

32:23

When you have the nostalgic memory of

32:26

Michelle, you can literally

32:28

pause and take a deep breath and

32:31

try and locate where that feeling

32:33

is in your body. If any sadness

32:35

comes up, where you're feeling it in your stomach

32:37

and your throat and your chest and your shoulders,

32:40

and you can first identify where that's coming

32:42

from physically, and then you can

32:44

say something to Michelle about

32:47

it. You can say, wow, I really

32:49

miss you, I really miss some morning

32:51

conversations. I really wish

32:53

you were here. You can talk to her,

32:56

You can get in touch with that feeling and

32:59

to be able to hold on to it a little longer, because

33:01

I think automatically it kind of get snatched away

33:03

from you. But you can intentionally

33:05

try and hold onto it and try and talk

33:07

to her and try and address it.

33:10

Makes sense. It would take some practice. I

33:12

would think, well, what if you tried

33:14

that now for a moment. I don't

33:16

know if you're close to that breakfast area, but if you just look

33:18

around, and if you just try and evoke

33:20

a memory of her nostalgic

33:23

or otherwise, and

33:26

maybe if she were here,

33:28

if she were able to listen in some way, what

33:31

would you say to her right now?

33:36

I would probably

33:39

talk the way we talked at breakfast.

33:41

Do it now? Say it to her.

33:43

I'm looking at a picture that was handed

33:45

down from her folks. So you

33:47

know, Michelle, it reminds

33:50

me so much of your parents. And at

33:52

first it wasn't my style. It's very

33:55

kind of Greek classic, but I've

33:58

grown to love it because your parents and now because

34:00

of you. I remember how much you loved

34:02

it, and eventually

34:05

I did too. I've

34:07

see so many things in the house that

34:09

were so important to you. You decorated

34:11

the house, and they've

34:14

become mine. It's a little sad because

34:17

because they've become mine alone

34:20

and not yours,

34:25

but they also you evoke

34:27

happy, happy memories, So

34:30

I'm glad about that.

34:32

You know, you started saying that, and

34:34

then you start choking up when you started

34:36

saying they were yours, and then you love them,

34:38

so I love them, but they were yours, and now they've

34:41

become mine because you're

34:43

starting to deal with the fact that she's

34:45

not here, and then you choke up,

34:47

and then you quickly say, but happy memories

34:49

too, to kind of get away

34:51

from that, right, But if

34:53

you see, just put the break in and

34:56

just it's okay to stay with choked

34:58

up. It's okay to stay with you now their

35:01

mind because you're not here and I

35:03

wish you were here. It's okay

35:05

to keep going there because

35:07

that's how the grieving works.

35:10

Grieving means that you are getting your mind

35:12

and your body and your brain adapted

35:15

to this loss, adapted to the fact that

35:17

it's not there. You keep running

35:19

away from it. So you do have to stay there

35:21

and say these kinds of things

35:23

and continue that dialogue with

35:25

her.

35:26

And I can do that. I've never thought

35:28

about doing that, but talking out

35:31

loud. I would want to do it out loud, like.

35:33

I'm doing with you, right, But you wanted to run

35:35

away from it pretty quickly.

35:36

That's true. I need to focus

35:39

and stay with it.

35:42

I'm thinking too, Richard, that you

35:44

didn't have the chance to say goodbye

35:46

to Michelle. Yeah,

35:49

And I wonder if when you're sitting

35:52

at breakfast you ever think

35:54

about what you would have said to

35:56

her, or what if she were sitting there with

35:58

you you'd like to say to her.

36:01

Oh, I've thought about that.

36:02

Oh, can you talk to her about

36:04

that right now?

36:08

Yeah. I'm sorry that we had a

36:10

couple of years of retirement together and it

36:12

was so wonderful and we were really rediscovering

36:17

what was so great about our marriage.

36:20

And I'm

36:23

you know, I'm sorry I didn't

36:28

I didn't really talk about that. That's one

36:30

thing I'd like to talk to you about. And

36:33

how it was cut short

36:36

unfairly, but life is unfair.

36:38

Do you see where you went with that again? To the

36:40

It's almost like the happy place of well,

36:43

it's unfair, but hey, you know life is

36:45

unfair. So what can you do?

36:47

Not allowing myself to grieve,

36:50

to get emotional,

36:52

to move away from it? Yeah, I understand.

36:55

Can you tell Michelle what it was

36:57

like not to be with her when she died? Is

37:01

there a picture of her that you can look at as you're saying.

37:03

This, Yeah, actually,

37:06

I.

37:06

See you looking there, So go ahead

37:08

and talk to her and tell her.

37:10

Well, the last time I saw you,

37:15

you were worried about the MRI,

37:17

and that was my last conversation

37:20

with you. Was trying to

37:23

calm you and give you some comfort,

37:25

which is good, but it wasn't enough. I

37:27

didn't want that to be our

37:30

last conversation. I still thought

37:32

i'd have time. I didn't know you

37:34

would die. Even after I

37:37

was told that I had to arrange

37:39

for hospice care, I

37:42

thought we'll continue to have our time

37:45

together and maybe together

37:47

we could prepare for the

37:49

end. And there was no preparation.

37:52

You're talking more about sort of what happened

37:55

and what transpired than

37:58

what it feels like. Is there a part of you it

38:00

wishes you could have been there with her and held

38:03

her hand as she was

38:05

dying. Is there a part of you that

38:09

wishes that you could have given

38:11

her more support than the comfort you gave

38:13

her around the MRI. Not that you could

38:15

have, but can you tell Michelle

38:19

what the experience was like for you

38:21

of not being able to be there for

38:23

her and then not being

38:25

able to be there when she actually died,

38:29

And to have this unfinished conversation

38:32

that if you'd known that you only

38:34

had twelve hours

38:37

with her, what would you

38:39

have wanted to have

38:41

said to connect with her, to

38:43

say goodbye to her? Can you talk to her

38:46

about that.

38:47

Michelle, even if you couldn't hear me, and hopefully

38:49

you could, I wanted to hold

38:51

your hand and talk about

38:57

are forty years together

39:00

and anniversary that

39:02

was coming up. We

39:04

had planned to have a big adniversary

39:06

and even though it was difficult for you to get away

39:09

to travel the world anymore, we

39:12

were planning something more

39:14

modest that you could be comfortable

39:17

doing. And I wish I got to do that. And

39:20

if I was in the hospital with you, I

39:22

would have talked about those plans, giving

39:24

you something and me something to look

39:26

forward to. That's

39:29

what I wanted to do, even if

39:31

we both expected the worst. I

39:34

want to hold your hand and be

39:37

nostalgic and talk

39:39

about each other, our relationship

39:42

with each other, and how it progressed

39:44

and how good it became, and

39:46

about the people we loved in common.

39:49

You were saying that you

39:51

would want to give her something to look forward

39:54

to, But if

39:56

you both knew that she was not going to make

39:58

it, what

40:00

do you think you would have wanted to say

40:02

to her about how important

40:05

she was to you? Can you tell

40:07

her that right now?

40:09

Yes, I mean you changed my life.

40:11

You made my life wonderful.

40:14

You were my best friend in

40:16

additions

40:18

being married, and

40:21

I appreciated you every day.

40:24

And I appreciated that you retained

40:26

your sense of humor even

40:28

when it was difficult

40:31

to move or difficult to breathe, and

40:34

that you were brave. You were

40:36

frustrated about restrictions, but underneath

40:39

it you maintained

40:42

your sense of humor and

40:44

the sense that living was fun and

40:47

you had a great life lived.

40:49

Can you tell

40:51

her, if she could

40:53

hear you now, what

40:56

this loss has been like for you, And

40:58

can you really stick to your feelings as

41:00

opposed to the logistics

41:02

of it.

41:05

Not your fault, of course, but I feel a

41:08

sense of abandonment and

41:11

a real sense of loss. I feel

41:14

aimless and purposelessness

41:18

because so much of my purpose and

41:20

yours is to be there with one another.

41:24

And I

41:26

couldn't continue to enhance your life and

41:29

to feel your love and for you to feel

41:31

my love. That's what

41:33

I miss.

41:34

I think that this is

41:37

an example, Richard, of

41:40

the kind of thinking and the kind

41:43

of feeling that you need to do. Degree

41:47

we both had to bring you back

41:50

to stay with a feeling, don't go to logistics,

41:53

don't go to your head, stay with your heart, stay

41:55

with the feeling. I think it's very difficult

41:57

for you to get in touch

42:00

with how you're feeling, let alone articulated.

42:03

And you can see every time you start choking

42:05

up, you take a breath, and then instead

42:07

of staying with the feeling, you say something

42:09

more casual that kind of bumps

42:11

it out into your head, or like, well, you know you can't

42:14

have everything, or you say something that kind of takes

42:16

you out of the feeling zone.

42:18

And that's the practice that

42:20

you need.

42:22

And that will make me less avoidant

42:25

less anxious

42:27

to leave the house at every moment.

42:29

You're anxious to leave the house because you don't want to feel

42:31

this. You're anxious to leave the

42:33

house because it feels to you like if I stay

42:36

here, I'm just going to be so sad. But

42:39

you mentioned depression in your letter,

42:41

and there's a difference between depression

42:44

and grief. And you're grieving because

42:47

it's really specific. You

42:50

are able to enjoy certain

42:52

activities and you're even seeking them out for

42:55

the distraction of them. A depressed person wouldn't

42:57

enjoy those activities, but

43:00

a grieving person would because

43:02

those activities are a distraction from

43:04

the grief. And I think you need to

43:07

reclassify in your head that when I'm

43:09

feeling sad, it's grief, it's

43:11

not depression. Depression sounds like something

43:14

you should do something about. Grief

43:16

is not something you do something about. You

43:18

learn to tolerate the loss, you learn to sit

43:20

with it. You're afraid

43:22

to cry. The minute you start choking up, your

43:25

breathing changes, your mouth clinches, as if

43:27

like let those tears through kind of

43:29

thing, and again it prevents

43:32

you from actually going

43:34

to that place.

43:37

That's true. I mean I never thought it in those

43:39

terms. I thought I was depressed

43:42

about being alone for the first time

43:44

in my life. By the way, I always

43:46

lived with somebody, college, roommates,

43:48

whatever. And I thought the

43:50

depression I called it depression, was

43:54

simply from being alone

43:57

and not with someone, which I

43:59

was trying to to remedy.

44:02

I didn't think of it as grief.

44:04

You were trying to remedy that by looking

44:06

for a substitute, looking for

44:08

that person that you can live with, because you don't

44:10

want to be alone, because you've always been with

44:13

someone all your life,

44:15

and in the first six months after she died,

44:17

your son was with you, ambivalent as that might

44:20

have been, and then soon after

44:22

that you had a relationships. At least once

44:24

every five weeks, you were with someone. But

44:27

it's this need to not be alone, and

44:29

you're out there looking intensely for

44:32

a girlfriend that can become a serious relationship

44:34

super quick so that you don't have to be alone. And

44:36

I want to suggest that you're not going to find

44:38

a substitute for Michelle

44:41

who will make you feel the

44:43

way Michelle did, who you can spend the mornings

44:46

with in that way. Who are youre

44:48

going to have the sympatico about everything,

44:50

an alliance that was built over forty

44:52

years, even if the chemistry was there

44:54

from the beginning.

44:55

Well, I don't have forty years left if.

44:57

You don't, but I'm suggesting that you need to find

45:00

something that's different. We

45:02

said, it's not bad to want to be with

45:04

someone, but you do have to learn

45:07

how to be alone a little bit.

45:09

You do have to learn to tolerate

45:12

that and to deal with the grieving when

45:14

you're alone, because if you don't,

45:17

you'll really indulge this impulse

45:19

to just find someone else who will be with you

45:21

full time, even if the relationship's abusive. You'll

45:23

tolerate it for that prospect because

45:26

part of you feel can just be with someone,

45:29

I'll feel whole again, and

45:31

you won't. In much the same way

45:33

that it almost felt worse to

45:35

have your son with you after Michelle

45:37

died because of the emotional disconnect.

45:40

You felt It's like, I'm with someone, but I'm

45:42

not feeling that closeness, so it feels

45:44

bad. It might feel similar if

45:46

you're with the wrong person full time.

45:49

So part of you needing to

45:51

learn how to be alone is

45:54

to not rush into something to quickly

45:57

put a patch over

45:59

the grief that you don't have to fully

46:01

sit with it because that won't

46:03

look.

46:05

Yeah, I did rush, but again, twenty

46:07

eight first dates, So I didn't

46:09

jump at the first.

46:11

Twenty eight first dates in a short amount

46:13

of time is not the definition of

46:15

not rushing.

46:16

Yeah.

46:17

I also don't know if you noticed

46:20

this, but it sounds

46:22

like the only time that you were really talking

46:24

about Michelle was when you were with the

46:26

other girlfriend. So you wouldn't

46:28

think about her when you were alone because

46:31

it was too painful, but you would

46:33

talk about her because you had the company

46:35

of another person. Now, the girlfriend

46:38

didn't like it, and she wasn't very compassionate

46:40

about it, understandably, Yeah, well,

46:42

but not so understandably. I

46:45

mean, you just lost your wife of forty years.

46:47

I would think that she would have

46:49

some understanding that you were grieving. But

46:53

it's interesting that it was hard

46:55

for you to tolerate the

46:57

feelings around Michelle when you're alone,

47:00

but you can tolerate them when

47:02

you're talking to someone else. So

47:05

you would talk about Michelle with

47:07

the ex girlfriend who was at the time, and.

47:10

By the way, with other friends, right,

47:12

yeah, right, it would also

47:15

Yeah, I mean, my guy friends

47:17

were always part of couples. Now,

47:19

maybe through the meetups and the pickle ball, I have some

47:21

very close guy friends, just guy friends,

47:24

which I haven't had in years and years.

47:27

When I talked to my girlfriend about

47:30

Michelle and these friends

47:32

about Michelle, it wouldn't

47:35

be mounting my feelings, certainly, it

47:37

would be nostalgia. It would be stories.

47:40

I often told my ex girlfriend when she complained

47:43

about this, I said, this

47:45

was my life for forty years, and I am

47:47

my stories. Yes, And

47:49

I started to just say I did

47:51

this, I experienced this, I

47:54

like this, and excised the word

47:56

we. I found I had to do

47:58

that, but not with my friends.

48:00

But even knowing that she could

48:02

not tolerate that you have

48:05

a history which everyone comes with,

48:07

and that this history shaped you and as

48:09

part of you and you're sharing

48:12

your experience with her, you

48:14

still wanted to live with her, even though she couldn't

48:17

tolerate that. And I think that

48:19

that's a very important thing to

48:21

consider, that being

48:23

in your grief was so intolerable

48:26

that you would put yourself in a different kind of

48:28

intolerable situation.

48:30

I just recall what you said before about

48:32

the difference you said not moving

48:34

on moving forward. I

48:37

was focusing on moving on, and

48:40

I thought, yes, I shouldn't talk about

48:43

my wife in front of my girlfriend as often

48:45

as I do in my head.

48:47

I was moving on, not forward

48:50

by including my marriage

48:53

my past experience.

48:54

I'm curious in the first

48:56

few months of

48:58

UF that she passed when he's I said, friends

49:01

were doing this rotational thing.

49:03

Were you talking about your feelings or were you just

49:06

talking about stories?

49:07

I was talking about my feelings. I cried,

49:10

and not just at the stories in my

49:12

nostalgia. I would talk about

49:14

my feelings. It

49:17

was a matter of weeks, and then

49:19

I moved on to STITCH and

49:21

I talked about my feelings and everyone

49:24

did.

49:24

Because that's a bereavement group. But you were on it just

49:26

for a few weeks. Why just

49:28

for a few weeks.

49:31

I don't know if I was uncomfortable or

49:33

I think it was because I

49:35

knew everyone's

49:38

what everyone was saying, and there was a

49:40

lot of repetition, and I felt I was doing

49:42

the same thing. So again, moving

49:44

on.

49:45

So you worried that you were maybe boring.

49:48

And I felt they were boring me. I

49:50

thought, it's run its course, and

49:52

these groups didn't start with me. I

49:55

joined a group. So

49:58

after a few weeks. I'm thinking, not only have

50:00

I heard the same thing, which of course

50:02

was very helpful to share for

50:05

a couple of weeks, but that

50:08

they've been doing this for I

50:11

don't know how long.

50:12

You sound a little bit like your ex

50:14

girlfriend that you had this expectation.

50:19

Why are they still talking about this? Shouldn't

50:21

they have moved on by now? They're funny,

50:24

And I think that's because you were hoping that

50:26

would happen for you, that you

50:29

just didn't want to feel this and you just

50:31

wanted to move on as quickly as possible

50:34

without thinking that this is how

50:36

they're moving again, the difference between moving

50:38

on and moving forward. This is how they're moving

50:41

forward. This is serving a purpose

50:44

so that they can do the work of grief

50:46

and move forward in their lives. But

50:49

for you, it was I have to cut all

50:51

this off, and that will show

50:53

that I am done and I'm ready and I'm going

50:55

to find my next relationship and that's

50:58

what it's going to look like.

50:59

Yeah, And I would check in on

51:01

occasion and it was the same

51:03

people, and I thought,

51:06

Okay, been there, done that, I've gotten

51:08

everything I could get out of it, and I'm moving

51:10

on to the chats in the games.

51:12

Richard, Let's be clear that repetition

51:15

is essential when you're grieving.

51:17

Any emotional processing

51:21

is really done by repetition. Our

51:23

minds, our brain gets things

51:26

really quickly. Our emotions

51:28

take a long time to catch

51:30

up to the understanding that our mind has.

51:32

We can wrap our mind around the fact that

51:34

someone's gone much more

51:37

quickly than we can our feelings.

51:39

And repetition is necessary.

51:42

It's part of the grieving process because

51:44

you're feeling it again, but maybe slightly differently

51:46

this time. It's challenging, it's difficult

51:48

because it's sad and it's painful. But

51:51

by going over it again and again,

51:54

you're getting your body and

51:56

your mind and your heart especially

51:59

adapted to a new reality.

52:01

That switch doesn't happen on a time. You really

52:03

have to massage it in

52:06

and repeat it. If you've ever had the massage, but

52:08

strokes are repeated numerous times. You

52:10

don't just do it once, because even the muscle

52:12

needs the repetition to loosen up

52:15

and to be able to unclinch.

52:17

Yeah, and perhaps these other members of the group they

52:19

understood that, and I didn't. I

52:21

thought they were rehashing in my mind,

52:24

and I understand what you're

52:26

saying.

52:27

That's what your girlfriend didn't understand.

52:31

She could not understand why you were still

52:33

talking about Michelle even though you had

52:35

just lost her.

52:37

Yeah, I don't know. Someone told me you don't

52:39

want your deceased spouse

52:41

to be the third person in

52:43

a relationship, which resonated

52:46

with me.

52:46

There's a difference between being the third person in a

52:49

relationship and telling your

52:51

girlfriend something about you, And

52:53

you were telling her something about you and

52:56

your experiences and your history and

52:58

your past. That's

53:00

all about the getting to know you. It's

53:03

not like you just showed up as this person

53:05

who didn't have the last forty years.

53:08

It's very possible that five years

53:10

down the road, ten years down the road,

53:13

you'll have her thought about Michelle,

53:15

and when you've grieved properly, when you think about

53:18

that thought, and you'll turn to your girlfriend

53:20

at that time, even if it's in ten years time

53:22

to tell her how you're feeling. You

53:24

will get choked up, you will get

53:26

sad, because that ache doesn't

53:29

disappear, it doesn't go away. It's appropriate

53:32

when it comes to feel teary, to feel

53:34

sad. There's nothing wrong with it. That's what moving

53:36

forward means you move forward with the

53:39

pain rather than moving on from

53:42

the pain. And so in your understanding

53:45

of grief, if you're talking about your feelings,

53:47

it should be legit to bring

53:49

it up if you feel it,

53:51

because you'll probably feel it even for years

53:54

to come. You kind of touch that live wire

53:56

and suddenly, oh, that thing comes

53:58

up, and there's someone there to here and to

54:00

support and to give you a hug like I hope you would

54:03

do with you with somebody who's a widow.

54:06

Yeah, this new girlfriend, it's only been a

54:08

couple of months. Like I said, we

54:10

moved very fast, probably too fast,

54:12

but she seems more receptive. It's early

54:14

days, and I can't say that I shared

54:17

my feelings about Michelle's death,

54:19

but I've certainly referred to her.

54:22

Do you refer to your sadness?

54:24

No?

54:24

Why not?

54:25

Well, she's a wonderful woman, married

54:28

forty years and divorced, and

54:31

I don't want to burden

54:33

her two months.

54:34

In with a feeling.

54:35

Wouldn't be a burden with feelings? Yeah,

54:37

with your feelings, with those feelings.

54:40

Maybe with any feelings that are challenging.

54:43

That's interesting that you say that, because

54:46

you know we're just spending half the week already

54:49

with each other. But I

54:52

was thinking this afternoon when I go

54:54

down there, I want to say, one thing I

54:56

love about you is your sunny disposition.

54:58

But I want you to know the

55:00

only thing you've talked about that where

55:02

you've shared your feelings is about

55:05

your ex and the acrimony

55:08

and the difficult

55:10

divorce. But if you want to share other

55:13

difficult things or talk about our

55:15

relationship in me maybe most importantly.

55:17

And it's so funny because that's what I plan

55:20

to tell her this weekend.

55:21

That wasn't about your feelings, it was about hers.

55:24

And what I'm saying is that that's

55:26

what you run away from.

55:28

Yeah, I believe that. I

55:30

wanted to tell her that to

55:32

see how receptive she would be, to see

55:34

if, in turn, she said, and

55:37

you could tell me anything.

55:39

I wonder what would happen if you were just direct

55:42

with her and said, I'm

55:45

really loving getting to know

55:47

you. And I

55:50

also haven't really

55:53

done the grieving that I need to do

55:55

for Michelle. I'm

55:58

excited about getting into a new relationship,

56:02

and I want to be able

56:04

to talk about all

56:07

of my feelings, including the

56:09

feelings that I have about Michelle that still

56:11

come up that I'm still dealing with. I

56:14

had a wonderful marriage, and

56:16

I'm feeling that loss

56:18

at times, and I

56:20

want to be able not to edit myself so

56:24

that if we're in an elevator

56:26

and they're playing a song and it reminds me of Michelle

56:28

and I get sad, that I

56:30

can say something about that or

56:34

a memory comes up, or I'm

56:36

just having a hard day, because that will

56:38

happen in addition to the fun that

56:40

we're having, because I want both that

56:43

I don't have to hide that part of myself with

56:45

you, and I'm enjoying

56:47

this so much with you, and I just wanted

56:49

to get that out there and

56:52

let you know that this

56:54

is something I'd like to be able to be

56:57

open with you about. How

56:59

does that feel for you?

57:01

It does, And I think I

57:03

said it. I was going

57:06

to talk about

57:08

that I would welcome this

57:11

girlfriend to share her

57:14

feelings so that

57:16

she in turn.

57:17

But it was a test. It was kind of

57:19

a it was it was like a trial balloon

57:21

that you.

57:22

Were It's a test because we've done

57:24

nothing like that. We've done nothing like

57:26

that.

57:26

It's right, it's fun, It's.

57:28

Not necessarily a problem. You know,

57:30

at this point in a relationship.

57:32

It is a problem. It is, actually, Richard,

57:34

because we're saying you have to move forward

57:37

with grief. That means the grief will

57:39

be with you. It's

57:41

a part of you, forty years

57:44

of your life. You can't put an

57:46

X on it. These feelings are given

57:48

the example, in ten years, they might come up. In twenty

57:50

years, they'll still come up.

57:51

Right, Well, I said it wasn't a problem. It's

57:54

not a problem because it's so early.

57:56

Relationships, Richard, are such

57:59

that you said, up a dynamic early

58:01

on in the relationship. You set up the pattern,

58:04

You set up an unspoken contract of

58:06

what this relationship is going to be about and what it's

58:08

not going to be about. And

58:10

your contract right now is misleading. You

58:13

are sitting with all these feelings. There is grieving

58:16

to be done yet here. So

58:18

that will absolutely be a significant

58:20

part of your experience going

58:22

forward. And she doesn't know anything about it

58:25

and your inclination of I'll test

58:27

her and I'll tell her that I'm okay with her

58:29

feelings, and therefore if she can do

58:31

that, then I'll feel okay sharing mine.

58:34

And a much better way to do that is

58:36

to just share yours, because

58:38

it's essential that the other person that

58:41

you're with can hear the grief,

58:43

whether it comes up now or at any.

58:45

Time, and having

58:47

this conversation and bringing

58:49

your whole self into the relationship

58:52

will help you not make

58:55

her another drug that numbs

58:57

you from the pain of the grief, because

59:01

that's what happens. You're going into these

59:03

relationships and all of these dates

59:05

because you're putting the needle in. I

59:08

don't have to feel. But if you really

59:10

want this relationship to be sustainable,

59:13

you're going to have to bring your whole self to it.

59:16

And this way, she's not the drug that

59:18

distracts you from Michelle. You're

59:20

getting to know her, she's getting to know you. You're

59:23

enjoying each other. That's great, but

59:26

you're also being real with each other, and

59:28

that's going to be more sustaining because what you and Michelle

59:31

had was being real with each other, and

59:35

that's something you're going to want in a relationship

59:37

going forward.

59:39

Yeah, and what guys said about a dynamic

59:42

being established as we

59:44

speak, I had never thought about

59:46

it that way. I'd been thinking, well, wait,

59:49

it's too early weight, but the

59:51

pattern may have been established before.

59:53

But relationship dynamics, I like cement

59:57

much easier to mold when it's sweat,

1:00:00

much harder when it's dry, and like cement,

1:00:02

it dries quick. So

1:00:05

two months in is a lot if you're bereaved

1:00:07

widower who's not talking about

1:00:09

his grief at.

1:00:10

All, And

1:00:12

I have to move from stories which

1:00:15

i've shared to feelings to feelings.

1:00:18

Yes, yes, so,

1:00:25

Richard, we have some advice for you to

1:00:27

try out this week. And the

1:00:29

first thing is we would like you to join

1:00:32

a bereavement group. We know that

1:00:34

you felt it was a little repetitive

1:00:37

the last time you were there, but as

1:00:39

we talked about, this is the

1:00:41

nature of grieving, and

1:00:43

we'd like you to go in person to a group.

1:00:46

And since you're really good at project management,

1:00:48

we're pretty sure you could find one this week.

1:00:51

And even if the other

1:00:53

people are closer to

1:00:55

the loss than you are in terms of

1:00:57

time, you're still kind of a nubie

1:00:59

at this because you haven't really

1:01:02

done much by way of grieving.

1:01:04

You've been pretty blocked for the last

1:01:07

couple of years. So we'd

1:01:09

like you to say to the group when you go there, my

1:01:11

wife died several years ago, but I'm

1:01:14

kind of new to this because I

1:01:16

haven't really done the work, and

1:01:19

I'm here to really process

1:01:21

this loss, and we want you

1:01:23

to see what that's like with this new perspective

1:01:26

and understanding of grieving that

1:01:29

we've talked about today.

1:01:30

Okay, here's the second thing. Michelle

1:01:34

is all over the home that

1:01:36

you're in. She's all over the place, but

1:01:39

you don't really talk to her enough.

1:01:43

And so the other thing we'd like you to do is

1:01:45

at times when you're alone at home, would

1:01:48

like you to have breakfast with

1:01:50

Michelle ten

1:01:52

fifteen minutes short, but

1:01:55

in that time, would like you to sit where

1:01:57

you usually sit and have what you usually

1:01:59

had, and would like you to talk to her

1:02:01

and say something like, you know, I

1:02:03

haven't done a great job of processing

1:02:07

this and I really miss

1:02:09

you, but I haven't really told you what

1:02:12

it's been like to be without

1:02:14

you, and I want to tell

1:02:17

you, and I'm going to start

1:02:19

right at the beginning what it was

1:02:22

like that night that you died.

1:02:24

And you have to do it all at once, you know, every

1:02:26

day for a little bit, but share just

1:02:29

one thing, not a story,

1:02:32

a feeling about what it was like. Try

1:02:35

and really stay with a feeling. And if you feel

1:02:37

yourself getting choked up, remember

1:02:39

those are your feelings, embrace them. It's

1:02:41

okay, it's painful, but you'll stop

1:02:44

crying. Crying, by the way, has

1:02:47

numerous positive psychological

1:02:49

functions like release and catharsis.

1:02:52

It's a very useful physiological

1:02:55

mechanism. So don't be

1:02:57

reluctant to experience tears

1:03:00

if that's what happens. But every

1:03:02

morning that you're home by yourself, some

1:03:05

breakfast with Michelle where you try

1:03:07

and bring her up to speed. You have three years, so

1:03:09

there's got to be stuffed there just telling

1:03:11

her what this was like for you, in

1:03:13

the moments that you miss her, in the moments that

1:03:15

you think of her, in the moments that you wish

1:03:18

she was there, that you wish you had more time

1:03:20

in retirement with her, all those things. One

1:03:24

meaningful feeling a day,

1:03:27

and you'll know it's meaningful because when

1:03:29

we help keep you on

1:03:31

it, you got choked up each time. If

1:03:33

you're not getting choked up, you're going to stories try

1:03:35

and bring yourself back to the emotion and just express

1:03:38

it and the feeling will come.

1:03:42

And it's short because we know that it's

1:03:44

hard to go into those places.

1:03:47

So these aren't the two hour breakfasts

1:03:50

that you used to have with her. These are

1:03:52

ten minutes.

1:03:54

Yes, I can do that.

1:03:56

And the last thing is we would

1:03:58

like you to talk to the woman that you're sing

1:04:00

now say to her. I

1:04:02

just want to reassure you that whatever

1:04:04

grieving I'm doing for Michelle doesn't

1:04:07

stop me from developing feelings

1:04:09

for you, because I am and I'm really

1:04:11

enjoying this. But

1:04:14

we've spent the past two months where,

1:04:17

unbeknownst to you, I've been

1:04:19

holding back. I

1:04:22

want to be able for both of us to bring our whole

1:04:24

selves to this relationship.

1:04:28

And because I'm still grieving and

1:04:30

I haven't really done the work of grief, so

1:04:32

it's a little bit fresher for me. I

1:04:35

want to be able to talk about how I'm feeling

1:04:38

when the grief comes up, because

1:04:40

I think that that will bring us even

1:04:42

closer. We want you to

1:04:45

ask her, how does that feel to you?

1:04:47

You might even say something like because

1:04:49

there are moments in which I feel so sad

1:04:52

and I don't want to have to hide those from

1:04:55

you. When it would feel actually really good, and then

1:04:57

you've put your arms around me, you take my hand,

1:04:59

that would feel really good. I would like to be able

1:05:01

to do that, and I'll obviously be

1:05:03

happy if you needed that as well.

1:05:07

And I understand now why there's also some

1:05:09

urgency.

1:05:10

To this, yes, because of the cement.

1:05:12

Drying right, good metaphor,

1:05:15

So, how.

1:05:15

Does all that sound for you to try this week?

1:05:18

Good? Thank you so much, oh our.

1:05:20

Pleasure, and we look forward to hearing how it all

1:05:22

goes.

1:05:22

I will do that me too, great, looking

1:05:25

forward to performing these exercises.

1:05:28

Wonderful, thank you.

1:05:34

It's really interesting to me because so

1:05:36

many people don't know how

1:05:39

to grieve. They literally ask, okay, but how

1:05:41

do I do that? Even if I want to do that, I'm

1:05:43

not sure how. They think the best

1:05:45

thing to do is just numb. So if I'm not

1:05:47

sad, I'm processing. No,

1:05:50

processing is sad. It is

1:05:52

painful. You can't run away or escape

1:05:54

that. And I really hope that

1:05:58

he got that message that yes, it's

1:06:00

an active, intentional process.

1:06:03

I think he was aware that he was using distraction,

1:06:06

but I think his solution for that was how

1:06:08

do I learn how to be alone versus

1:06:12

how do I learn how to grieve when

1:06:15

the pain comes up? And

1:06:17

so I'll be interested to see what he does this week

1:06:19

with the exercises that we gave him to help

1:06:21

him get more on track with that.

1:06:23

Me too.

1:06:28

You're listening to Dear Therapists. We'll

1:06:30

be back after a short break.

1:06:44

So, Laurie, we heard back from Richard, and

1:06:46

I'm very curious to see how he did

1:06:49

this week with all those challenging

1:06:51

emotional assignments we gave him.

1:06:53

Hi, Guy and Laurie, this is

1:06:56

Richard. I just wanted to get back

1:06:58

to you to

1:07:00

let you know about my experiences

1:07:02

completing the exercises

1:07:05

you assigned. One

1:07:07

of them was to have breakfast with

1:07:09

Michelle, as I did for

1:07:12

years, and you

1:07:14

wanted me to talk to her about what it's been

1:07:17

like to be without her and to express

1:07:19

my feelings to her, and you wanted

1:07:21

to know how I felt doing

1:07:23

that. Well. The first couple

1:07:26

of days, I felt very self

1:07:28

conscious and uncomfortable. Eventually

1:07:30

I broke through that and I felt mostly despair

1:07:34

is how I would describe it, and

1:07:38

I got very emotional once I cried.

1:07:42

The next phase I would call it was

1:07:44

I felt an intimacy again

1:07:47

with Michelle and

1:07:49

the comfort that would alternate with despair,

1:07:52

but I felt I was making

1:07:54

progress. The

1:07:57

next assignment was to talk to my girlfriend

1:07:59

and to explain that I

1:08:02

may have cut short the process

1:08:04

of grieving for Michelle,

1:08:08

and to reassure my

1:08:10

girlfriend that continuing

1:08:13

my grieving would not affect our

1:08:15

relationship. I

1:08:18

told her that I want to be able to talk

1:08:20

to her about my grieving, which

1:08:23

I believe would bring

1:08:26

us closer, and my girlfriend

1:08:29

readily agreed, but I left

1:08:31

it there for now. I

1:08:35

will talk to my girlfriend

1:08:37

in specific terms about my grieving

1:08:39

and the feelings it conjured

1:08:42

after I've had more

1:08:45

breakfast conversations with Michelle.

1:08:49

My third assignment was to join a grief

1:08:51

support group. I found

1:08:53

one. They follow a workbook called

1:08:55

grief Share. This was the only

1:08:58

group available on short notice, so

1:09:00

I really didn't look into. Grief Share turned

1:09:03

out to be a faith based program,

1:09:06

but I'm not religious and

1:09:08

the references I

1:09:11

found distracting, so I may

1:09:13

look for another group that might

1:09:15

be more helpful. Thanks

1:09:17

so much, Guy and Laurie for your

1:09:19

help.

1:09:24

So Richard is really starting

1:09:27

the process of grieving. When

1:09:30

he talked about the evolution

1:09:32

of the breakfast with Michelle getting

1:09:35

to a point just in this first week

1:09:38

of toggling between despair

1:09:40

and intimacy and

1:09:43

feeling closer to her, I think

1:09:45

that is what had been missing he

1:09:47

wasn't able to feel the despair,

1:09:50

and he wasn't able to feel

1:09:53

the closeness. He would compartmentalize

1:09:55

those and I'm glad he's doing

1:09:57

what he needs to do, which is to let himself

1:09:59

feel whatever he feels, to

1:10:02

really stay focused on talking

1:10:04

to Michelle about what has been like

1:10:07

since she's been gone, because he needs

1:10:09

to hear it as much as he needs to

1:10:11

have the conversation with Michelle.

1:10:14

I agree, and I think that those first

1:10:16

couple of days, with that first assignment

1:10:19

where he felt really uncomfortable, that's

1:10:21

where he would have stopped previously.

1:10:24

And I'm impressed that he really

1:10:26

got the message of no, you have to stay with these

1:10:28

things. You don't run away from it at the minute that

1:10:30

oh, I'm uncomfortable, let me run away. So he

1:10:33

stayed with it, and he started to feel and he

1:10:35

started to feel different things. And

1:10:37

when he says, I'm not going to talk to my girlfriend

1:10:39

yet, I want to have more breakfast, I think

1:10:42

he's beginning to understand that

1:10:44

he has a lot more to explore, and if he

1:10:47

puts himself in the situation and stays

1:10:49

with these feelings, he'll be

1:10:51

able to move forward. And

1:10:53

then when he has a conversation with his girlfriend,

1:10:55

he'll actually have something to say. So

1:10:58

he's really being persistent way

1:11:00

that he wasn't before.

1:11:01

And I'm so glad to hear it, and i think

1:11:03

it was a great sign for that relationship,

1:11:06

whatever happens with it, that she

1:11:09

was so receptive to his saying

1:11:11

I'm going to need to talk about this, and whether

1:11:14

it's this relationship or another relationship,

1:11:16

he knows now that this

1:11:19

is a part of him that you can have both

1:11:21

Michelle there with you and you can move forward

1:11:23

with somebody else.

1:11:25

Absolutely. I'm also really impressed

1:11:27

that within a week he found

1:11:29

a support group an attendedy. So that shows

1:11:31

a lot of motivation on his part

1:11:34

and a lot of readiness to

1:11:36

really embrace this grieving process in

1:11:38

a much more useful

1:11:40

way for him ultimately. And I'm also

1:11:43

glad that this long term thinking then

1:11:45

is this is not the group for me because

1:11:47

some of the faith based things don't sit

1:11:49

well with me, So let me find one that

1:11:52

I relate to more. And I

1:11:54

really heard the intentionality there in

1:11:57

him saying that. I get the sense that he's under

1:11:59

stood that he needs

1:12:02

to engage in a grieving process in a very different

1:12:04

way, and that he's really starting to

1:12:06

do that.

1:12:07

And I think an important message here is that sometimes

1:12:09

when people look for a support

1:12:11

group around grief or whatever the support

1:12:13

group might be, if they go

1:12:15

to one and it's not quite a match, they

1:12:18

do need to find one where they feel comfortable.

1:12:20

So I hope that he doesn't get turned

1:12:23

off by this experience and think that's

1:12:25

what it's going to be like, that he can find

1:12:27

one where he finds his people, his philosophy,

1:12:30

and where he feels comfortable. So

1:12:33

Richard, if you're listening to this, I hope

1:12:35

that you'll do a little more research.

1:12:37

I know it was rushed and you didn't have a lot of time,

1:12:39

but now you can take a little bit of time and

1:12:42

research some of these groups and find

1:12:45

one that feels right to you so

1:12:47

that you have some support around

1:12:49

you from people who really understand

1:12:52

what you're going through.

1:12:54

And I hope you can continue, Richard, to

1:12:56

lean into the discomfort and

1:12:59

to really your emotions

1:13:01

as you've started to do, because I think that ultimately

1:13:04

you'll be able to come out of it in

1:13:07

a much better place. Next

1:13:11

week, a woman who wants to have a better relationship

1:13:13

with her angry older sister wonders

1:13:16

if that's possible.

1:13:17

I feel so attacked by her and

1:13:20

her emails that she's made it clear

1:13:22

my vision and my view of the past

1:13:25

is the right one and the correct one,

1:13:27

and your course is not.

1:13:29

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