0:03

I'm Laurie Gottlieb. I'm the author of

0:05

Maybe You Should Talk to Someone, and I write

0:08

the Dear Therapist advice column for the Atlantic.

0:10

And I'm Guy Wench. I'm the author of

0:13

Emotional First Aid, and I write the Dear

0:15

Guy advice column for Ted. And

0:17

this is Dear Therapists.

0:19

Each week we invite you into a real session

0:21

where we help people confront the problems in their

0:24

lives and then give them actionable advice

0:26

and have them report back to let us know what happened

0:29

when they did what we suggested.

0:30

So sit back and welcome to

0:32

today's session. This

0:35

week, the woman who wants to have a better relationship

0:37

with her angry older sister wonders

0:40

if that's possible.

0:41

I feel so attacked by her and

0:44

her emails that she's made it clear

0:47

my vision and my view of the past

0:49

is the right one and the correct one,

0:52

and your cors is not.

0:54

First a quick note, Dear Therapist is for informational

0:56

purposes only. It does not constitute

0:58

medical or psychological advice and is not a substitute

1:01

for professional healthcare advice, diagnosis, or

1:03

treatment. By submitting a letter, you are agreeing

1:05

to let iHeartMedia, use it in part orn full,

1:07

and we may edit it for length and clarity in

1:09

the session you'll hear. All names have been changed for the privacy

1:12

of our guests.

1:17

Hey guy, Hi Laurie.

1:19

What do we have in our mailbooks today?

1:21

Today we have a letter from

1:23

a woman who has some conflict

1:26

with her sister and is

1:28

really at a loss as to what to

1:30

do. And it goes like this, Dear

1:33

therapists. I'm fifty three and

1:35

I have a sister two years older. My

1:37

parents had an unhappy marriage and divorced

1:40

in the early nineties, and both happily remarried.

1:43

It was pretty difficult growing up, lots

1:45

of arguments between them and yelling and

1:47

fighting. My sister and I were close and

1:49

got along well growing up, but we drifted

1:51

apart once she went to college. She

1:53

tried for many years to have a baby, and she suffered

1:56

multiple miscarriages. She has a

1:58

boyfriend of about fifteen years. They're

2:00

not married. She also had a very good

2:02

job as an associate professor, but she didn't

2:04

get tenure and she never worked again. That

2:07

was about fifteen years ago. She lives

2:09

off her boyfriend and off of money that my mom

2:11

gives her each month. About

2:13

ten years ago, our relationship took a nose

2:15

dive. I got pregnant by my boyfriend

2:18

at the time, and I now have a nine year old son.

2:20

I'm not married and I don't have a current boyfriend,

2:23

but I do have a great job, a wonderful

2:25

son, many friends, and financial stability.

2:28

My sister, Natalia got very angry

2:30

when she found out I was pregnant. I didn't

2:32

tell her right away, and she's still very angry

2:34

that I didn't tell her. My dad and mom

2:37

were the ones who told me to wait and not tell

2:39

her until I was further along, But once

2:41

she found out, all hell broke loose. My

2:43

dad got very angry with me and he stopped

2:46

talking to me. He was already in very

2:48

poor health, and he died three months later while

2:50

I was still pregnant. I never got

2:52

the chance to have a real goodbye with him, and

2:54

I feel that my sister really drove a wedge

2:56

between us. I've forgiven her,

2:58

but this past Christmas, she asked me if a

3:00

present for my son had arrived. I

3:03

responded that yes, it had and thanked

3:05

her for the gift. She then attacked me

3:07

for not asking her about the weather where she lives,

3:09

because there was a bad storm there. I

3:12

responded that I don't keep up with the weather, and

3:14

I hoped she was okay, but that her email

3:16

was very hurtful. It's now nearly

3:19

a month later, and she has been sending me NonStop

3:21

angry emails. She is bringing up

3:23

so many things from the past, saying she gave

3:26

up her childhood for me. She's telling

3:28

me I need to see a therapist, calling

3:30

me a bully, and a bunch of other horrible things.

3:33

I've tried my best to tell her I love her,

3:35

but would appreciate it if she can speak to me respectfully.

3:38

She ignores me and doubles down on her anger.

3:41

To be honest, if she were not my sister, I

3:43

would not have anything to do with her. She

3:45

also attacks my mom, who is eighty five,

3:47

so I know it's not just me. Neither

3:49

of us has seen Natalia for about eleven years.

3:52

She lives in seclusion with her dog and her boyfriend.

3:55

I see she is in a lot of pain, but I

3:57

don't like being called names and put down and screamed

4:00

at an email. I need your help on

4:02

what to do next, Elise.

4:04

This is one of those letters where I'm

4:07

much more oriented towards

4:10

what's missing in the letter than towards what's

4:12

there. What's there is that tumultuous

4:14

relationship with sister. Something went wrong.

4:17

But what's not there is she thought they were very

4:19

close growing up, and her sister said, you stole

4:22

my childhood. And a

4:24

lot of contradictions and

4:26

different perspectives are coming

4:28

through here. With a sister with

4:31

the parents, people are seeing things

4:33

in different ways, and so for me,

4:35

I really have a lot of questions so

4:37

we can start to get a sense of

4:39

what the story actually is, because it's clear

4:42

that she has a much different perspective than her sister

4:45

does.

4:46

Yeah, and I don't think this is just a story

4:48

about the two sisters. I think this is a story

4:51

about the entire family and

4:53

the dynamics that went on and

4:55

maybe continue to go on between them.

4:58

I really noted in her letter when she said, my

5:00

sister hasn't seen my mom, my

5:03

mom, not our mom

5:06

in eleven years, And the fact that Natalia

5:08

hasn't seen either of them in eleven years is very

5:10

curious, especially because the mom is still

5:12

giving Natalia money every month,

5:15

so there's some kind of transaction going on there.

5:18

But there's a lot more that we need to understand about

5:20

what is going on. And I think that

5:22

what you said, Guy, about lots of

5:24

people have different perspectives on what's going on

5:27

is going to be key to how we can

5:29

help a lase. So let's

5:31

go talk to Elise and learn more about this family.

5:36

You're listening to Dear Therapists for my Heart

5:38

Radio. We'll be back after a short break.

5:48

I'm Laurie Gottlieb.

5:49

And I'm Guy Witch, and this is Dear

5:51

Therapists.

5:54

Hi, Elise, welcome to the show. Thank

5:56

you so much. I'm so happy to be here with both

5:59

of you.

6:00

Thanks for coming on. We wanted to start

6:02

by understanding what was

6:04

going on in your childhood. Tell

6:07

us a little bit about what things were like in your

6:09

house growing up, what things were like between your

6:11

parents, and what your relationship

6:14

and your sister's relationship was like with

6:16

each of your parents and with each other.

6:19

Sure, so we grew

6:22

up in I think a pretty

6:24

nice house. Both my parents worked,

6:27

they didn't get along. My mother was sort of the

6:29

breadwinner of the family, so she was gone

6:31

a lot of the time at the office working,

6:34

whereas my dad was home much more often

6:36

and I think he ended up

6:38

being more of the emotional

6:41

support for both me and my sister. I

6:44

think both my sister and I were a little bit afraid of my mom.

6:46

She would come home and we'd scurry around

6:48

and try and make sure everything was

6:50

clean, the lights

6:52

were on, the table was set, things like

6:55

that.

6:56

What would happen if things weren't

6:58

the way she wanted them.

7:00

She would get very upset, and

7:03

my dad would sort of try and protect us,

7:06

and then she

7:08

would just express her disappointment, maybe

7:10

go off to her office until things.

7:12

Were fixed, express it in what way,

7:14

raising.

7:15

Your voice, being very angry,

7:17

and then my dad would raise his voice and turn I

7:19

think my sister and I would run off to our bedrooms

7:22

and wait until it was safe to come out again

7:25

together or separately. Separately,

7:27

so my sister and I had separate rooms.

7:29

My mom slept in one part

7:32

of the house, my dad slept in a different part of the house.

7:35

I never saw my parents sleep in the same

7:37

room. They weren't very affectionate

7:40

with each other.

7:42

When your parents would fight or when your

7:44

mother would get angry with the two of you, did

7:46

you and your sister ever support

7:48

each other or talk about what was going on.

7:51

I think sometimes we would talk about it. I remember

7:54

when we were maybe

7:57

ten and twelve, we brought

7:59

this to the attention to my parents. We said

8:01

it didn't seem like they were getting along and there was a lot

8:03

of arguing, and we were upset, and we

8:05

suggested they go into counseling, and

8:10

they didn't go. I think they tried to patch

8:12

things up a little bit between themselves, but

8:14

it just felt like four separate people within

8:17

the family. When my sister

8:19

went off to college, that's when sort

8:22

of the crack between us grew

8:24

larger.

8:25

Tell us about some of the good times with her. Would you hang

8:28

out together, would you play together when you were younger,

8:30

would you have common friends,

8:32

would you share things

8:34

with one another?

8:36

I guess my sister was much more of the introvert,

8:38

and she would sort of sit in her room and read,

8:41

so she wouldn't really wasn't as interested

8:43

in playing directly with me. She's

8:46

very good at drawings, so she drew some pictures

8:48

of my animals. We'd

8:50

go on some really nice trips with my parents, and

8:53

I remember those being fairly enjoyable.

8:56

When you say that you and your sister were

8:59

close, and then when God I asked you, what did you

9:01

do together? I'm not hearing

9:04

where the closeness was. Can you tell me what

9:06

the closeness felt like to you or how

9:08

you saw the closeness.

9:09

She's a very good cook and baker as well,

9:12

so she'd go into the kitchen and cook

9:14

some things and bake them and then bring out and I'd

9:16

eat them.

9:21

She got her driver's license before I did, so

9:23

she would drive me to some places

9:25

and we'd talk in the car and share music together.

9:29

Sometimes she helped me with my homework.

9:32

So from you, and she was a

9:34

pretty decent older sister. Oh

9:37

yeah, I think so when she says you

9:39

stole my childhood, can

9:42

you help us understand to what she might

9:44

be referring.

9:46

Yeah, so in these email exchanges

9:48

that went on around Christmas time,

9:51

she did say that I think she feels like she was protecting

9:54

me from the arguing going on between

9:56

my parents. As she said

9:58

in some of her emails, that she sacrificed everything

10:01

for me so that I could have a normal childhood.

10:04

What did she sacrifice? That's what we're not clear about.

10:07

Yeah, I don't know. I tried

10:11

to find out in the emails a little

10:13

bit, but she kept like going

10:15

back to just being very very

10:17

angry, you know, in all caps, that

10:19

she felt like I'd stolen something for her, She'd

10:22

given everything to me, and

10:25

I felt like I didn't ask you to give up

10:27

your childhood. And

10:29

I wish you would have told me back then

10:32

or sooner. I mean, I'm in my fifties

10:34

now, and this all happened four

10:36

decades ago.

10:37

You said what you're saying to us now, to her, Oh

10:40

I didn't. What's curious to me is that you

10:42

said she sent these long emails.

10:45

There must have been a lot of content in

10:47

the emails, yes, and yet

10:50

you're still unclear

10:53

about what it

10:55

is that she sacrificed or how she

10:57

felt she had to sacrifice something to protect

10:59

you. It doesn't really matter

11:02

that it happened so long ago. The point is the feelings

11:04

are still there, but the two of you are

11:07

not really able to talk

11:09

about this. It sounds like it

11:11

was kind of lonely. It wasn't a real

11:13

connected family. Even

11:16

when you went to your parents and said, hey, this

11:18

conflict is really affecting all of us,

11:20

please go to therapy, they chose

11:23

not to. I'm just curious

11:26

how they reacted in the moment to their

11:28

daughters saying this

11:31

family needs help, you need help.

11:34

I think they said, thanks

11:36

for letting us know. Well,

11:39

think about it. My dad

11:41

was quite faithful

11:44

in terms of his religious beliefs. He

11:46

was actually a priest at one point,

11:49

so I think he was very much like I am married

11:51

for life, whereas my mother was more

11:53

like, you know, it's so

11:56

focused on her. It was always about her

11:58

work.

11:59

When you said, you're father was more emotionally available,

12:01

what kinds of things did you talk to him

12:03

about.

12:04

I went to like the a private Catholic school, and

12:06

the girls were just very unkind, So I talked

12:08

to him about that. And you know, my dad

12:10

would make an effort to talk to the teachers

12:13

and the principal. He would come in. Sometimes

12:15

he was very good at origami and he would do

12:17

show and tell for the class. He

12:19

also helped me with my homework and my writing.

12:22

In fact, one of my application essays

12:24

for college asked which person

12:26

I most admired and had influenced me the

12:28

most, and I picked my dad, and

12:30

my mom cried and I had

12:32

to pick another topic for my essay because it

12:35

just so upset her to hear that

12:37

from me at that point, my dad remember

12:39

coming into my room and saying, I'm so sorry, but you're

12:41

going to have to pick something else.

12:44

What was that like for you when he said

12:46

that?

12:46

Oh?

12:47

I cried as well. It's like, but I want to write about

12:49

you. You've meant so much to me. You

12:52

know. He died ten years ago

12:54

and I still miss him very much. And it was a

12:56

horrible ending when he passed

12:58

away. And that's when a lot of the

13:00

conflict with my sister really came up.

13:03

Do you happen to know what Natalia's experience

13:05

was.

13:06

Did she have the same relationship

13:08

with your dad that you did?

13:11

So, my dad and she, Laurie were very close, and

13:13

you know, my mom told me at one point that my

13:15

dad favored my sister. They

13:18

were just super bonded. I

13:20

could tell that my dad really

13:22

sort of preferred my sister. I think my

13:24

dad loved me as well, but there

13:26

was something between them that was very special.

13:29

You could tell that as a kid, Yes, And

13:32

how did that feel?

13:34

It hurt And it hurts even now

13:37

trying to think about that and what that

13:39

was like, knowing that the person

13:41

like I really loved still

13:43

like somebody else, And you know, it happened later

13:45

on with the disagreement that we had that he would take

13:48

her side and not mine, and

13:50

not defend me and not protect me or

13:53

at least be fair.

13:54

Did you and Natalia ever talk about

13:56

the fact that there seemed to

13:58

be some favor artism going on with

14:01

your dad.

14:02

I didn't bring it up. I don't remember

14:05

having any talks with her about that.

14:07

So who did you talk to about that? Because

14:09

it sounds like your mom was

14:11

not that emotionally available, and

14:14

I don't think.

14:15

I talked to anyone about it. But at the time,

14:17

back then, it was more focused on my

14:19

studies and I was involved

14:21

in swim team,

14:23

doing homework. I don't think I was

14:26

thinking about what was going on

14:28

with my parents and my sister. I

14:31

was more in the moment, even

14:33

though you weren't consciously

14:35

thinking about it. These are the kinds

14:37

of things that we internalize.

14:39

These are very important experiences of

14:42

exactly how you put it,

14:44

this person that I love love someone else more.

14:49

That can be very painful, and it can also

14:51

inform relationships later

14:53

on, not just with the person who was favored, but

14:56

your friendships, your romantic relationships,

15:00

about yourself. Have you thought

15:02

about any of that as an adult,

15:05

yes, I have more so now that I've

15:07

grown up. It's really painful

15:10

to think about. And

15:13

I try not to dwell on it and

15:16

focus more like on the present and put

15:18

more of a rosy, positive, optimistic

15:20

look at my past than try

15:23

and think about what happened then and

15:25

how that shapes me today. It's just very traumatizing,

15:28

I think, you know, even talking about it now, it's

15:31

just very painful.

15:33

It sounds like Natalia someone who

15:35

really wants to talk about the past, and

15:38

you're someone who, as you said, wants

15:40

to have this more kind of rosy view

15:42

of it and leave it in the past.

15:45

I'm open to talking about it with her, It's

15:49

just I feel so attacked

15:51

by her and

15:55

her emails that she's made it clear

15:57

my vision and my view of the past

16:00

is the right one and the correct one,

16:03

and yours is not.

16:05

Another way to think of her emails

16:09

is not My way is the

16:11

right way to think of the past. But you

16:14

are so invested alease

16:16

in this rosy view that

16:19

you won't allow any

16:21

of my perspective in that

16:24

might be what she's saying in her emails in a very

16:26

very upsetting way.

16:28

That feels incredibly

16:31

aggressive.

16:32

Correct.

16:34

I'd like to go back to what you said

16:36

about when she went off to college

16:39

that you started to drift apart, and

16:41

then you talked about how ten

16:43

years ago things started to really go downhill.

16:45

Can you take us through sort of those inflection

16:48

points.

16:50

So she left for college back in the day,

16:52

there was no email, so we wrote letters. We'd

16:55

come back and reconnect

16:57

at Thanksgiving and Christmas,

17:00

spring break, and then we had the summer together.

17:02

And how close were things between you? Did

17:04

you transition from big sister, little sister to

17:07

friendship at any point?

17:08

So Scenior is my big sister. Guy friends,

17:11

but she's always been my big sister. And

17:16

when she came out to the university, I had a really bad

17:19

breakup and she flew out and comforted

17:21

me, which was great. She

17:26

was studying overseas and I went to go visit

17:28

her as well. Her family

17:30

traveled a lot as well, So you know,

17:32

we spent a year

17:34

in Berlin, a year in Vienna together, which

17:38

at least I remember fondly.

17:39

How much would she be able

17:42

to be vulnerable with you because you said

17:44

she's my big sister and I still think

17:46

of her that way, which puts her in a semi

17:48

parental role, and I'm curious about whether

17:51

she was able to lower that guard and

17:53

be vulnerable with you, whether you ever were able

17:55

to be there for her when

17:57

she needed. Was she open to that or

18:00

inviting that or wanting that.

18:02

It's a great question, guy. I

18:05

think my sister is a very private

18:07

person, and I'm definitely the more

18:09

outgoing and open one. But

18:12

I was open to listening to her and

18:15

talking to her. She just doesn't share a

18:17

lot of her feelings, so like in these

18:19

emails that came out over Christmas,

18:22

just all of these accusations

18:24

and things about me not being there, not listening

18:26

to her.

18:28

When you would spend extended

18:30

time periods together when you were abroad,

18:34

did.

18:34

You fight, did

18:36

you argue? I don't remember

18:39

fighting, to be honest. Did you

18:41

fight as kids? Yeah? I think when

18:43

we were when we were younger. I remember

18:45

one instance, there were a bunch of root

18:47

beer popsicles in the freezer and

18:50

I ate nearly the whole box and as a result got

18:52

very sick. But she was very angry that I ate them all.

18:55

But otherwise I don't think we argued a lot about

18:57

things, just because she was off doing another thing. I

19:00

was off doating my thing, So you.

19:02

Didn't really get angry with her, and she didn't really

19:04

get angry with you.

19:06

Yeah, not that I remember.

19:07

Typically siblings

19:10

argue a lot, even siblings who are really

19:12

really close, and that's part of

19:14

how they become close, that there's

19:17

a rupture and then there's a repair and

19:20

then they trust each other. Oh, we're

19:22

having this conflict, but we can get through it,

19:24

because we always get through it. So

19:27

it's interesting that as

19:29

siblings you didn't really get angry with each other,

19:32

which is sort of part of the growing up process

19:34

together. Not that you should be fighting

19:36

constantly, but it's just notable

19:39

that you can't really remember

19:41

getting angry at one another, except for the

19:44

root be or popsicle incident.

19:46

She broke my Madonna record. I was upset

19:49

about that, but I guess I just

19:51

just like for me as a person, maybe Laurie, I just sort

19:53

of tend to more think about the

19:55

positives and not

19:57

try and dwell on what I was mad about, what

19:59

I was angry about.

20:01

She did get angry with you a couple of times

20:04

about the popsicles, about the Madonna record,

20:06

so she's able to say I'm upset

20:08

about this, and

20:12

this dynamic persists today where she's

20:14

saying I'm upset about this and you say, I

20:16

just want to look at the positives

20:19

right right.

20:21

What was the first time

20:23

that you got a whiff of

20:25

the fact that her entire experience of

20:27

her relationship with you was very, very different

20:30

than yours. When was the first

20:32

time that she started to really show

20:35

you, I have a lot of feelings that I haven't

20:37

been talking about here they come. When

20:40

did that start?

20:41

Now that you mentioned that we were on a train on

20:44

a trip, and I remember my sister

20:46

saying, we know, Elise, dad has

20:48

always been an alcoholic, and that was back when we

20:50

were in our twenties.

20:52

And what was your reaction to that? Was that news to

20:54

you?

20:55

I was shocked, But then I started putting

20:57

the little dots together and remembering

20:59

how there was always a lot of beer

21:01

in the refrigerator and then there wasn't, and

21:04

then there were empty alcohol bottles in

21:06

the garbage can. But I

21:08

just wasn't really thinking about that.

21:10

Why was she saying that to you at that time?

21:12

I think she's trying to shock me into saying,

21:14

you know, things aren't what you think

21:16

they are. Your memory is not

21:18

what you think it was.

21:20

So that's the issue what's coming across,

21:23

certainly from the stuff that you're telling us about today,

21:25

but really all along that she was

21:27

feeling that I'm living in a different reality,

21:30

in part in her head because I'm the older

21:32

sister slash co parents,

21:34

so I have to be aware of everything that's going

21:36

on. I can't have my head in the

21:38

sand or have this idealized version of things

21:41

or ignore things because

21:43

I have to be the big sister. In a way,

21:45

It's almost like she assumed this

21:48

burden and now she's very angry

21:50

at you for having it. But obviously

21:52

it wasn't one that you offered her the sheet,

21:55

which one she took. But she started,

21:57

even in your twenties, sharing I

21:59

have a very different perspective on life and

22:01

our experiences than you. Yours

22:03

are quite rosy and idealized. Here's

22:05

mine. Did that make you curious

22:09

to ask more and find out more

22:11

from her?

22:12

Yes? I did start asking more questions,

22:15

asking how could you say something

22:17

like that? She said, remember

22:19

saying, you know, our childhood was really miserable.

22:21

At least, I don't know where

22:24

you're coming up with all these visions

22:26

and ideas that it was anything

22:28

other than miserable, and

22:31

I would come back with but I don't think

22:34

it was that way. We look at all these trips

22:36

we've been on, and we've done all these great

22:38

things together, and our parents were

22:40

doing their best, and

22:44

she probably thinks so is delusional.

22:46

Were you clear that what she was

22:48

saying is our childhood

22:50

was miserable for me? At least?

22:54

I think? You know, guy, at that time, I didn't

22:57

validate her enough. I

23:00

was more into what was

23:03

my reaction and trying to defend our childhood

23:06

rather than being in that moment with her and

23:08

saying, tell me more and you

23:11

know which, now I could

23:13

do a bit better, But back then I

23:15

was still just in my twenties, and I

23:17

think dealing with the shock of that.

23:19

What do you mean by shock of it? Because

23:23

you were aware of some of these things too.

23:25

Right, I guess

23:27

shock that somebody would point it out.

23:30

Somebody's going to point out the elephant in the room.

23:32

There's often one person in the

23:34

family. They're known as the identified

23:36

patients. We call them the IP, and

23:39

they're the ones who say, hey,

23:42

wait a minute, something's not right

23:44

here, and everyone says, oh, no,

23:46

no, no. Look at all the trips we've

23:48

been on. Look at our parents

23:51

doing their best.

23:53

Look at all the opportunities that we have

23:56

had. We have a roof

23:58

over our head, and food on the table, and

24:00

hard working parents. And

24:03

so that person becomes the crazy

24:05

person, the person who brings this up and says,

24:07

well, wait a minute. Dad was an alcoholic and

24:09

mom was working all the time, and our parents fought

24:11

every day, and it was a living hell for me. And

24:15

I think that that has persisted.

24:18

You dealt with the hurt and the pain by

24:21

denying it. Oh, I don't want

24:23

to look at that. And she

24:25

dealt with it by saying, I'm

24:28

going to kind of go off and do my thing, but

24:30

I'm also going to be a truth teller at some point.

24:33

And when she tries to do that, the

24:36

family ignores her.

24:38

I think that's correct, Laurie. I

24:40

think she does feel deeply ignored. I mean, she

24:43

doesn't talk to me, she doesn't talk to

24:45

my mom, she didn't really talk to my dad while he

24:47

was still alive. I think she buries

24:49

a lot of this deep inside of her, and

24:52

then when it comes up, I guess she just lashes

24:54

out because it's so much better.

24:56

I think that part of her perspective might be today,

25:00

you were able to be in denial

25:02

and have a quote unquote good childhood

25:05

because of me, because I was on the watchtower,

25:08

because I was looking after you. The

25:10

bread that I made for you and those kinds

25:12

of things thore were things I did to distract

25:15

you from what was going on in the house.

25:17

I didn't point out when dad was getting

25:19

tipsy or drunk. She went

25:21

to her room to escape the misery, and

25:24

you didn't have to because you didn't

25:27

see it. And I think her experiences,

25:29

she's the one that enabled that for

25:32

you, and you didn't realize it. But

25:34

that's part of her anger today, like it

25:37

was me that allowed you

25:39

to have the denial and the much better

25:41

childhood, and I'm the one that had to deal

25:44

with all the actual real problems

25:46

that were around.

25:49

I think that's quite insightful. That's probably

25:51

exactly how she feels, And.

25:53

What she's really looking for is the

25:55

validation from you of oh,

25:58

yes, I can see that you're experience

26:00

would have been very, very different than

26:02

mine, if that's the case. But what I think

26:05

tends to happen is that you will

26:07

say, like, oh, but that just wasn't my

26:09

experience. I just don't see that, and

26:11

she experiences nandas you invalidating

26:14

her experience rather than just trying

26:16

to process your own. And

26:19

I think that's part of where the ruptures

26:22

happen between the two of you.

26:25

I think that's true. I think she desperately

26:27

wants to be heard, and

26:31

I tried my best at least

26:33

to try and listen. But I also want

26:35

to make sure I'm heard. But

26:37

I don't think she's ready to hear

26:39

anything that I have to say, because she really wants

26:42

me to hear

26:44

what she has to say and validate her experience.

26:47

Right, it's the validating she needs. Listening

26:49

is great, but the other person doesn't know that you've

26:51

listened until you accurately validate.

26:54

And if you listen but forget the validation

26:56

step, which by the way, a lot of people

26:59

do, you might feel like I totally got

27:01

it, accept the other person doesn't know it.

27:04

Okay, Validating

27:06

doesn't mean that you had the same experience

27:09

she had. So I think that you feel

27:11

like, well, I need to explain to her that my experience

27:14

was different or I don't agree with that you're

27:17

nodding. So I can see that that is what happens

27:19

between the two of you, as opposed

27:21

to being able to say,

27:24

I'm validating that this was her

27:27

experience and I'm not going to fight with

27:29

her about her feelings.

27:32

Her feelings are untouchable.

27:34

You can't tell someone you don't

27:36

feel that way. You

27:38

might have felt differently, so you don't have to say,

27:41

and Natalia, I felt the same

27:43

way because you didn't. And

27:46

that's where you get stuck. I think that you feel

27:48

that by validating her, you're saying and

27:50

I also had a miserable childhood, when

27:53

you don't feel that you did, and

27:55

so you feel stuck between. I want to validate

27:58

her, but I also had a different experiences

28:02

and there's a way to do that where

28:05

you can really listen and learn more about

28:08

her and get closer to her by

28:10

acknowledging that her experience

28:13

was real. It

28:15

truly was. It was different from

28:17

yours. No two siblings grow up in the same

28:19

house with the same parents, And

28:22

what I mean by that is just

28:24

because you have the same parents and you're in the same

28:27

house, you're going to react differently

28:29

to those same parents. You

28:33

two had different childhoods in

28:35

the same house, as most siblings do. Sometimes

28:37

both siblings have a wonderful childhood

28:39

with the same parents, even though it's still a different

28:42

childhood in the same house. You

28:45

two had these different roles. Your parents

28:48

were fighting all the time. That's

28:50

very unsettling for kids to

28:52

see that the people who are supposed to be stable

28:55

and calm and in charge

28:57

and regulated are disregulated

29:00

most of the time. So

29:02

when she comes to you and says this

29:05

was my experience and you say,

29:07

oh no, she

29:10

increases the volume when

29:12

we're not heard. We think it's

29:15

not true, but we think that if we get louder,

29:17

someone will hear us. But

29:19

that just makes people tune you out because

29:23

then you're not going to hear anything that she says, because

29:25

all you can hear is the kind of anger and aggression,

29:27

and that makes you want to turn down

29:30

the volume, so you actually can't hear

29:32

her better. And so this dynamic

29:34

just keeps repeating. She gets louder,

29:37

you invalidate, she gets even

29:39

louder, you invalidate more, and

29:41

now you're just in two different

29:43

places completely.

29:46

Yeah, And I wouldn't say I was invalidating

29:48

her. I remember saying, you know, I understand

29:51

that you feel you went through all these things.

29:53

You know, at the same time, I see things differently,

29:56

but.

29:56

You see how quickly you get to I see things

29:58

differently. So,

30:01

yes, you went through this. And by the way, let me tell

30:04

you my version again. My version

30:06

was we had a happy childhood. So it

30:08

goes very quickly from yes,

30:10

I'm willing to listen to your experience too, but

30:13

let me tell you about mine. Let

30:15

me just reiterate that I had a

30:17

happy childhood in that house. Do

30:20

you see how that itself can feel invalidating

30:22

because she hasn't been given some time

30:25

for you to really take in what she's

30:27

saying and for her to know that you

30:29

took it in.

30:33

Okay, And I think part

30:35

of the problem for you, Elise

30:38

is that you still see her

30:41

as a big sister and therefore

30:44

as somebody who doesn't need as

30:46

much from you as

30:48

she actually does need,

30:51

because it's not just the validation

30:54

that she wants of her experience,

30:56

she also wants the validation that,

30:59

in her own head, a

31:01

lot of her experience was

31:04

there because I couldn't escape the way

31:06

you did, because I had to look out for you,

31:09

or I had to be protective of

31:11

you. And you don't seem to

31:13

appreciate at least how much I sacrificed

31:16

of my own happiness to allow

31:18

you to have the denial, and how much that

31:21

role took out of me, and I

31:23

didn't feel appreciated for

31:25

it. For example, in your

31:28

letter, you mentioned that she was upset

31:30

that she wrote to you asking if

31:33

your son received her Christmas

31:35

present, And I think that her experience

31:38

is that was a big gesture

31:40

on my part to send Christmas presents to

31:43

your son because I'm still very

31:45

much hurting from all the

31:47

miscarriages and the fact that I don't

31:49

have a child and you do. So it's actually

31:51

difficult for me to be supportive

31:53

and to do these things. And so yes, I

31:56

really need the acknowledgment because I am again

31:58

going out of my way putting myself

32:00

an emotional discomfort for you

32:03

in her head. Does

32:06

that make sense?

32:07

That makes sense? No, And I

32:10

think in no way now. And what's happened is she's

32:12

just still very much grieving in the fact that she couldn't

32:15

have a child. And

32:17

I mean, I knew once that she had one miscarriage,

32:19

but in the emails that we exchanged over

32:22

Christmas, she said I had multiple miscarriages,

32:25

and it's like I didn't

32:27

know. You never shared that with me and I am so

32:29

sorry, But if you

32:31

don't tell me, how would I know? And

32:35

we haven't talked on the phone. She called me once

32:37

for my fiftieth birthday. It was very short, but

32:39

otherwise we only do email.

32:42

I haven't heard her voice. My mother

32:44

also hasn't seen her in thirteen years.

32:46

How did that pattern get established where you wouldn't

32:49

see each other or talk voice to voice.

32:52

It happened when my father died. He

32:54

died about ten years ago while

32:56

I was pregnant. My sister

32:59

came out first to take care of him

33:01

for a little bit and then came

33:04

stayed for the funeral. But

33:06

that's really when the rift happened,

33:09

was when I was pregnant, and

33:14

all of this anger, I think came out in the

33:16

emails that came out. She was very angry that she

33:18

was the one who had to take care of my dad and not me,

33:21

and in another email that she had

33:23

to be the executor of

33:25

the estate and sort through things even though

33:27

I was named the executor. She was very angry

33:29

about that that I hadn't stepped up to do

33:32

that.

33:32

Why do you think that you were not sharing

33:34

those responsibilities with her?

33:36

I got pregnant in August.

33:40

I was in my forties at the time, so it

33:43

was a miracle at all that I got pregnant.

33:45

I wanted to wait to

33:47

see if I passed

33:50

all the tests and I was actually going to have a pregnancy

33:52

and not miscarrie. But

33:54

I also my dad and my mother told

33:56

me, do not tell your sister because

33:59

this will destroy her if she finds out that you got

34:02

pregnant with your boyfriend, whereas she's been trying

34:04

for years. I said, okay,

34:07

I'll wait. But

34:09

my sister found out from my aunt and

34:12

was so angry with me that I didn't tell

34:14

her, and she's still angry to this day. You could tell

34:16

from the email. I was so angry that I didn't

34:18

share with her that I was pregnant. She had to find out

34:20

for my aunt.

34:22

Did you explain why you hadn't told.

34:23

Her, I did, I said,

34:26

Mom and Dad said, don't tell you

34:28

anything until I was a little bit further along.

34:30

I had wanted to, but I didn't. I'm really

34:32

sorry. Knowing now, I would have shared

34:35

the news with you. I just was followween

34:37

instructions. How did she

34:39

react to your explanation doesn't

34:42

matter. You should have known better.

34:44

If your parents hadn't said something, what would

34:46

you have done.

34:47

I'm a very open person, so I was

34:50

I would want So.

34:51

She was right. You didn't know better, but you just went

34:53

and based what your parents were saying.

34:56

That's right, they both said,

34:58

do not tell her.

35:00

But did you say that to her like you're right,

35:02

Natahalia, I did know better, and I

35:05

was going to tell you, and I

35:07

shouldn't have listened to them. That was a mistake.

35:10

I didn't say so that she was right. I was,

35:13

you know, arguing

35:15

with my boyfriend at the time. It was an

35:17

awful situation I was in. We had agreed to

35:20

have a baby and then I got pregnantly. He was telling me

35:22

to get an abortion. My father

35:24

was dying, was not in a good place

35:26

at my job at the time. It

35:29

was not at the top of my mind

35:31

thinking about other people and when I should

35:33

be informing them of my pregnancy.

35:35

I'm just thinking about the whole dynamic

35:39

that was established very young with the

35:41

two of you that you didn't know about. So

35:44

one of the things that makes this hard, I think,

35:47

especially for you, is that

35:49

you didn't ask her to protect you. You didn't

35:51

ask her to do any of this, and

35:54

she feels like, well, I did the right

35:56

thing. I was the noble person here

35:59

right, and when

36:01

it came to the pregnancy. I

36:04

think that this dynamic continue,

36:06

this pattern of we're

36:08

adults now and I've

36:11

always protected you from

36:13

mom and dad, and yet

36:15

in this situation you chose them over

36:18

me. You didn't choose

36:20

me. And I think that even in your letter when

36:22

you had that back and forth

36:24

about the Christmas present, that

36:26

she was upset that you hadn't asked about there

36:28

had been a bad storm where she was. She

36:31

wasn't saying you need to check the weather.

36:33

I think she was saying, do

36:36

you care about me?

36:39

Now?

36:40

You're not expected to check the weather in a location

36:42

you're not in. But if you

36:44

had her in mind and it

36:46

was in the news, maybe you would have thought,

36:49

huh, I wonder if Natalia's okay.

36:51

We're just trying to help you to see that. From

36:53

her perspective, she feels like

36:56

you don't have her in mind very much.

36:59

I think that's it's true, except I also feel

37:02

like she's trained me not to care, because

37:04

when I do ask how are you doing, She'll

37:07

say, fine, it's

37:10

okay. So why would

37:12

I keep going back to a well where it's

37:14

just dispissal.

37:16

Do you follow up with her when she says that

37:18

and say, but Natalia, I

37:20

actually really care about you,

37:22

and I really would like to know. And

37:25

I know you're my big sister, but we're

37:27

both big now and I

37:29

really am interested in

37:31

what's going on with you. Yes, it's

37:34

on her to open up, but I

37:36

think you need to push a little bit more.

37:39

And I also think that when she says,

37:41

you know I said earlier that she's thinking you

37:43

should have chosen me, and you know you

37:45

did know better. But you listen to mom and dad

37:47

and you're like, well, but I was in a very difficult situation.

37:50

That's your default response, which is accurate.

37:53

It skips over the step of you

37:56

do say that, well, but here's the situation

37:58

I was in. But you can start by

38:00

saying, I completely understand

38:02

how you feel. I completely get that

38:05

given your experiences, it must have felt

38:07

like such a betrayal that you've been

38:09

trying so hard and I actually get

38:11

pregnant and you find out not for me.

38:14

That must have been really hurtful.

38:16

I am so sorry that that's how you found

38:18

out. And then you can go and say your part,

38:21

but the part about your addressing

38:23

her feelings seeing them as

38:25

we said, it doesn't contradict you saying here's

38:28

my experience, but you skip over

38:30

that, yes, she's giving you all the signals.

38:32

On the one hand, don't go there. And on

38:34

the other hand, she's giving all the signals, so please

38:37

go there.

38:38

Yeah. No, I think both of those

38:42

reflections are quite accurate. It's

38:44

so hard sometimes you get just caught up in

38:46

like defense mode, and it's

38:48

so difficult to, you know,

38:50

put a different hat on for the situation

38:53

with my sister, because I just I feel like I'm being

38:55

attacked and I immediately want to put

38:57

up my shield and say no. But maybe

39:00

I would get a different response from her if I did

39:02

just more validate the open

39:05

and as you said, guy, not take

39:07

the first dismissal as okay, she doesn't want to talk about

39:09

it.

39:10

You mentioned that you feel like you

39:13

have to be in defense mode, that you're

39:15

being attacked, and

39:17

I think that if you hear it as blame, that's

39:19

what's going to happen. I

39:21

don't think that originally

39:25

she was blaming you. I think it

39:27

evolved into that and now she's clearly blaming

39:30

you. But I think part

39:32

of the reason that she's so angry

39:35

is because you keep telling her her

39:37

reality isn't real. I

39:40

was thinking about the

39:42

fact that she doesn't feel appreciated for what

39:44

she did. Again, you didn't ask her to do it, but

39:46

she feels like she did do that for you.

39:49

She flew out when you went through a breakup. She took

39:51

on this parental role with you. And

39:57

I was thinking about what you wrote

39:59

in your life letter about how she succeeded

40:02

so much academically and

40:04

then she was up for tenure and she didn't get

40:07

tenure and she never worked again. And

40:09

I think that goes into that place

40:11

in her of I'm not appreciated. I did

40:14

everything right and

40:17

I didn't get tenure. I did everything

40:19

right, and I didn't get a baby. I

40:23

did everything right, and my sister doesn't appreciate

40:25

me, And

40:28

so I think at a certain point she just gave up. You

40:30

said she lives in seclusion with her boyfriend

40:33

and her dog. I do everything

40:35

right and no one can see me. So

40:38

I'm going to stay away from that pain. I'm going to

40:40

keep it to emails, but

40:43

I'm still trying to be heard because it's really meaningful

40:45

to me to be heard. She hasn't given

40:47

up on that.

40:49

Especially by you at Lease,

40:51

especially by you.

40:53

It's so interesting because I felt

40:55

growing up I was always told you was

40:57

the prettier one, the smarter one, the more

41:00

did one. It's just such a

41:02

bright career ahead of her. I

41:05

still see that. You know, she's

41:07

got the boyfriend. I don't have a boyfriend. She's

41:10

got friends, so there's there's things she does have

41:12

in her life, but she's still like I guess,

41:14

as you said, Laurie, I'm just very angry that

41:16

a lot of things she didn't receive,

41:19

and she feels like she didn't get recognized

41:22

and the things that she feels like she should

41:24

have deserved.

41:25

But I really believe that even

41:27

if she puts up so many hurdles, deep

41:29

down she wants that closeness

41:32

with you. That's why she keeps writing. That's

41:34

a lot of engagement for somebody who doesn't

41:37

want to have a relationship.

41:38

I'm thinking a little bit about the

41:42

way that you move through the world with a more

41:45

rosy disposition, which

41:48

has its strengths, but the other

41:50

part of it is that you want to make sure

41:52

that it doesn't veer into denial. And

41:55

I'm thinking about how

41:58

things ended with your dad. I

42:00

felt very close with him, and you had

42:02

a sense and your mom

42:04

even mentioned that he favored Natalia,

42:08

and in the end he chose her. He

42:10

said, don't tell her,

42:13

and had devastating consequences

42:15

because you didn't get to have the relationship

42:18

that you wanted to have with him at the end of his life.

42:21

That's right, and I imagine that

42:24

that pain lives inside

42:26

you. It's unresolved. It's this unfinished

42:29

grief.

42:29

That's quite true. You know. He ended

42:32

up calling me on the phone in November

42:34

after my sister found out and screaming at me and how

42:37

could you not tell her? And I said, but you told

42:39

me not to tell her that I was pregnant, and he said, well,

42:41

you should have told her anyways, because now

42:43

look at this mess that we're in. And

42:46

he'sas like, don't call me, I don't want to see you for Thanksgiving.

42:49

And I was calling him and trying to get in touch

42:51

with him and sending him letters, but he wouldn't talk to

42:53

me. My sister kept it from me that

42:56

he was that sick, and

42:58

I only found out when he was already at the hospital

43:00

and in a coma. And I feel like you know

43:03

with my sisters saying, well, why couldn't you step up and

43:05

be the executor? And I was like, I was in shock.

43:08

I hadn't talked to my dad in four months,

43:10

and our last conversation was him screaming

43:12

at me. And now you want me to make decisions

43:14

about property and whether or not to

43:16

take them off life support. I couldn't

43:18

believe that that was the last time

43:20

I got to see my dad.

43:23

I don't think it was just shock. I

43:25

think it was anger.

43:28

Oh, I was so angry at her? How could you not tell

43:31

me?

43:32

Well, not just her, I think it was anger

43:35

at your dad. He in effect

43:37

disowned you correct

43:40

for inadvertently

43:43

hurting your sister's feelings.

43:45

By following his advice.

43:47

Yeah, I mean it makes no sense to me.

43:49

You keep trying to make sense of it, but I'm seeing

43:51

the pain on your face, and

43:54

I think you live in the cognitive more

43:56

than in the emotional. You're more head

43:58

than heart when it comes to

44:00

pain. That could be and

44:03

that has been your coping mechanism that

44:05

served you well growing up. But

44:09

I think now might be a good time

44:11

in your life, not just in terms

44:14

of your relationship with your sister, but in terms of

44:16

your relationship with yourself and

44:18

even as a parent with your son, to

44:24

be able to access more

44:26

of your feelings and

44:28

to use them in an intentional

44:31

way. Oh so when

44:33

I told my sister that I was arguing

44:35

with my boyfriend, and that's why I couldn't step up,

44:37

I could actually share with her. I

44:40

was so hurt by Dad because

44:45

he disowned me, and I

44:47

was robbed of the experience of

44:50

saying goodbye to him, and he died

44:52

angry with me because I followed

44:54

an instruction he asked me to follow

44:57

to protect you. At

45:00

the time when this happened many years

45:02

ago, you were not

45:04

able to say to her, I'm devastated

45:07

by what happened with Dad. I can't step up right

45:09

now because I am so angry that

45:12

he did this to me. She didn't do it to you.

45:14

He did it by choosing her over

45:17

you. Yeah,

45:20

And so there's all this kind of misplaced anger

45:22

in the family. People are angry

45:24

with different people instead of being

45:26

angry with the people that maybe

45:28

they should be angry with.

45:31

I think your dad was one

45:33

of the few people, if not the only,

45:35

person who did see your sister.

45:37

He was around when you were growing up and

45:40

I think he did see what she did as

45:42

the older sister, the sacrifices

45:45

she made, and I think that was part of the closeness

45:48

that they had. He was much more clued in

45:50

to her feelings and her sensibilities

45:53

than anyone else in the family,

45:55

which is why that warning came

45:57

out to you. And then when she

46:00

is and she's so devastated, he just feel so bad.

46:02

He just lashes out in anger

46:04

without really adjusting

46:06

for the fact that that was his advice in the first place.

46:08

But I think that's in part why they

46:11

had that bond, because he saw and

46:13

no one else saw.

46:16

So when your dad died, he was

46:18

watching out for her heart.

46:21

And then he's gone, and then the

46:23

three of you are left. What happened

46:25

after your dad died? In terms of your relationship

46:28

with your mom, it was strained

46:30

for a while.

46:32

We've never been really close to My mother

46:34

is not a very emotional person.

46:37

She's much much more in her head and she's very

46:39

analytical. She lives

46:41

close by, so I'm able to see her. I talk

46:44

to her either through email or texting

46:46

her on the phone. I would say every single day,

46:49

So I guess from that perspective.

46:50

We're close does she have a relationship

46:53

with your child?

46:56

She is not the doting grandmother. She will

46:59

sort of buy him a gift, but

47:01

she's not one to take him to the park or offered

47:03

a babysit. She sees him, I would

47:05

say every few months or so.

47:07

Even though she lives close. Correct,

47:10

what is that like for you?

47:13

That's a great question. I

47:15

wish she were different, but I've just sort of accepted

47:18

this is the way she is. She's not going to be that

47:20

sort of grandmother who attends

47:23

the concerts and asks about

47:25

how he's doing in school.

47:27

At least you know, this is

47:29

the analytical part that you inherited from your

47:31

mom. Okay, My

47:33

question was not how do you make sense

47:35

of it or how do you live with

47:37

it? But what does it feel

47:40

like to you to know that she's close

47:42

or you're a single mom, you

47:44

have this beautiful child and

47:48

she's not involved in his life.

47:51

It's disappointed. I mean, she says

47:53

she loves her grandson, but

47:58

I don't see that in her actions or her

48:00

words or her voice. And it

48:03

hurts. And I guess I choose not to think about

48:05

it because it is so deeply painful, and

48:07

maybe what I've learned during this talk

48:09

with you. All is I do to sort of dismiss

48:12

my own painful feelings and don't dwell

48:14

on them because it doesn't feel

48:17

like it serves me, just makes me feel worse.

48:19

And this is what drives Natalia crazy.

48:22

I think you're right, Laurie,

48:25

because there's so many layers here.

48:27

When you see your mum operating as a grandmother

48:30

and she's not warm and she's not close

48:33

and she's functional, it brings

48:35

up Yep, that's what it was like growing

48:38

up with her as a mother. So

48:40

it's not just that you're not reflecting on your

48:42

experience as a mom to see how your

48:45

mother's relationship with your son is like, but

48:47

you're not even taking it to the next layer,

48:49

which is and let me reflect on

48:51

my experience was like because the same disappointment

48:54

I have for my son I

48:56

probably experienced or didn't because I was

48:59

distracting myself from it and not dealing

49:01

with it. And again that's the same tendency

49:04

of I'm going to just put that aside

49:06

and just not think about it because that's

49:08

easier, right.

49:12

Well, I'm trying to be a different parent myself.

49:15

I purposely

49:17

play with him, talk to him,

49:20

communicate with him, validate his feelings,

49:23

which surprises my mother. She's like, why are you taking

49:25

him to all these places and doing all these things?

49:27

And because that's what I think being

49:29

a good mom is about. Is

49:31

Bilina you know that connection?

49:34

You say that to her, Yeah,

49:36

does she see the uptext to know?

49:38

I don't think so. I don't think she goes that deep. She's

49:41

super smart intellectually, but just

49:43

doesn't go into the feelings about people.

49:46

But again, this is sort of a cognitive

49:48

explanation, because that's what a good mom

49:50

does. I'll bet that when

49:52

you're taking your son to all these different things

49:55

and you're connecting with him and you're listening

49:57

to him and validating him,

49:59

that feels healing to you.

50:02

It does, and it's enjoyable.

50:04

You enjoy your role as his mother,

50:07

but it also heals something because

50:09

you're able to give something that you didn't

50:11

get very true.

50:15

And I wonder if you spend any time in those

50:17

feelings of I'm

50:20

grieving but I'm healing and when

50:22

you're at the park with him or you're taking

50:25

him to wherever you take him that

50:27

is enjoyable for him. Do

50:30

you ever sit there and just think what

50:33

am I feeling right now? And

50:35

maybe you want to spend a little more time there

50:38

in the moment with him and

50:41

get in touch with your feelings.

50:44

That's a great suggestion.

50:45

So I'm curious how

50:48

this works with your mom and Natalia.

50:51

They email, but they don't talk.

50:54

Sometimes they talk on the phone. They have to arrange

50:57

phone conversations. Natalia

51:00

also lashed out at my mother in a similar

51:02

way over small things. She got upset.

51:04

My mother said she would call her one

51:06

morning and because something else

51:08

came up, and my sister got very upset

51:10

with her and angry, and you don't care about me.

51:13

But that's the theme. That's Natalia's

51:15

theme. She does not feel that anyone

51:17

ever cared about her except

51:20

her boyfriend seems to oh.

51:22

Her dad was not only yes.

51:25

And even when she was grieving the

51:27

loss of the one person who was

51:29

there, she felt the burden of and I have

51:32

to handle everything again, just like my

51:34

parents, who were not in charge when

51:36

I was growing up.

51:38

I think that's true.

51:40

Does your mother acknowledge what

51:43

the atmosphere was really like in your house growing

51:45

up?

51:46

I don't think so. As she says,

51:48

you know, was it really that bad? We

51:51

did our best.

51:53

She does to you what you do to Natalia.

51:57

And also your mother, as you said, was

51:59

scared to you. That was the

52:01

first word that you said when we asked

52:04

at the beginning of the session, tell us about

52:06

your mom, you said we were scared of her.

52:10

So she doesn't acknowledge any of that, and she says

52:12

we did our best the way you say to Natalia,

52:14

Mom and dad did their best. And

52:18

it lands on you differently than it lands

52:20

on Natalia. You have

52:22

your own coping mechanisms that both

52:25

served you and prevented you from truly

52:27

feeling, which you'll probably

52:29

want to work on a little bit more. And

52:32

for Natalia, she dealt with it in

52:34

overachieving and taking

52:36

care of everybody else but not really having

52:39

her own needs recognized.

52:42

She's very upset about that chance.

52:45

And I might suggest Elise that maybe

52:48

you do too, but you

52:50

don't let yourself go there, because

52:52

there have been times in our conversation

52:54

today when your emotions

52:56

are all over your face and

52:59

there you know you're smiling now through that, Yeah,

53:02

yeah, partly in recognition, but partly because

53:04

that's what you do. You smile

53:07

when things get hard.

53:10

Yeah, it's just painful to think

53:12

about and I don't like spending a lot of time

53:14

in pain, but.

53:17

Maybe getting more in touch with your feelings

53:20

will help you not be in such

53:22

pain.

53:24

I pulled out some pictures from my photo

53:26

album of my sister. Can I show you?

53:29

Yeah, happy kids, Easter

53:31

egg hunting, all bit older

53:33

in the beach.

53:35

What made you pull those photos out?

53:38

Because I wanted to show you like we

53:40

were happy kids.

53:41

At least you're doing with us what you do with Natalia.

53:44

We don't doubt that you experienced happiness

53:46

in your childhood, but we also see

53:48

that you were able to compartmentalize. And

53:51

you're defending. You're saying, here's exhibit

53:53

A. Let me show you the pictures,

53:56

Judge, here we are we were

53:59

happy, you see, Look look at us smiling in these

54:01

pictures. That's what you do to Natalia.

54:03

Yes, you were smiling in those pictures. And

54:05

yes, all the other things we talked about in this session

54:08

were also true. Both and

54:11

and that is where we want

54:13

to get you to to the both at all.

54:21

So at least we have some advice for

54:23

you. We would like

54:25

you to write an email

54:28

to your sister. Would like you to say

54:31

some version of you've been thinking

54:34

about her a lot, and

54:36

you've been doing a lot of reflecting, and

54:39

you've come to realize

54:41

more about how much of

54:44

a sacrifice she made

54:46

when you were growing up, how

54:48

much she was looking out for you, and

54:51

how much her protection and sacrifice

54:55

allowed you to have a

54:58

much better experience childhood

55:01

then she did. Not that it was great, but it was a better

55:03

experience, And you're

55:05

seeing that that cost her, and

55:08

it's something you hadn't seen before and hadn't

55:10

fully appreciated before, but

55:13

you're seeing it now. And

55:16

you can also say, and I'm just now

55:18

getting in touch with my

55:20

own feelings, and it's been

55:22

hard for me, and so I

55:25

definitely know that I didn't do a great job

55:27

of being there for yours, but I think

55:30

I can do that better now. For

55:33

example, I really should have listened

55:35

to my instincts when I got

55:37

pregnant, because you were the first

55:39

person I should have called.

55:42

Because I know what you went through in trying

55:44

to get pregnant, you should have heard it

55:46

from me. I'm so sorry I didn't

55:48

tell you first. And

55:50

you're right, I wasn't there

55:53

for you when Dad died,

55:56

and I know how close and special

55:58

your relationship was, so I can

56:00

only imagine how big a loss that

56:03

was for.

56:04

You and how much support you

56:06

needed at that time.

56:08

And I realized in general that I

56:11

had a big sister who was

56:13

looking out for me when I was growing up. You

56:15

didn't have that. You were all

56:17

alone in a difficult

56:19

situation. And

56:22

I really hope that maybe you can

56:24

give me another chance today

56:27

to really listen and to be there

56:29

for you in ways that I

56:31

haven't been able to be before.

56:34

You don't have to justify or explain anything.

56:37

No pictures, got

56:40

it, Laurie.

56:43

And what you're asking her for is he

56:46

would love to be able to have

56:49

better conversations going forward. I really

56:51

want to hear more about how

56:53

you feel and what your experiences are

56:56

even today. Okay,

56:59

she might respond with another tirade

57:01

of anger, like now you're writing this all

57:03

these years where she just kind of vomits

57:06

out all the complaints. If she does

57:08

that, your response to that, because

57:11

I think she's testing. If she does that, she'll

57:13

be testing you to see really

57:15

you're listening, or you're going to start explaining again

57:18

and telling me that no, I'm telling you

57:20

I was miserable and you're like, no, but our childhood

57:22

was good for me, Like that's the fear. So

57:25

if she comes back with this full tireage, you

57:27

have to just do another round of it. I

57:29

understand that this is

57:31

what this was like for you, and I can get

57:33

how angry you are and how much

57:36

you felt disappointed and let down

57:38

by me over the years. I get

57:40

why you're.

57:40

So angry, and I'm really

57:43

glad you're telling me this because

57:45

now I'm able to hear it and understand

57:48

it differently. So don't

57:50

worry about her tone, don't worry about the

57:52

kind of language she uses. At a certain point,

57:55

you will, But right now,

57:57

if she feels understood and heard,

58:00

you are going to say thank you, thank

58:03

you, thank you, thank you for

58:05

telling me this.

58:07

Okay.

58:08

If she doesn't respond at all, then

58:10

we think, like once a week for a while,

58:13

you should just text her and say I

58:15

was thinking about you and I just wanted to check in

58:17

and see how you were.

58:19

And I would add to those texts just a

58:21

line of I'm doing

58:23

so much thinking about our childhood.

58:25

So she understands that things shifted, because she has

58:27

to understand why it's worth a while to try

58:30

it again because things shifted.

58:32

So validating her show

58:34

that I'm listening to her don't

58:36

talk about me, well, you talk about.

58:38

You in the sense of I've been doing a lot of reflecting.

58:42

I see that I wasn't really open

58:46

to hearing your pain because I have

58:48

trouble with my own pain and

58:51

that would be a great way to express it to her. Our

58:54

mom was not very good at expressing emotions.

58:56

She was very analytical, and I've adopted

58:58

that way of being, and

59:00

I realize that I

59:03

have not been able to acknowledge

59:06

your pain or mind, even

59:08

if they might be different. Okay,

59:11

okay, And this leads me to part two

59:13

of the advice. There are three parts. Part

59:16

two is we didn't ask you about this in

59:18

this session, but you did say in

59:20

your letter that she calls you a bully, and

59:24

we are just guessing that maybe what she

59:27

means by that is that

59:29

you both have the

59:31

experience of the other person as shutting

59:33

you down. She expus all this venom

59:35

at you, and you feel

59:37

like she's a bully, and she feels

59:40

like you're trying to ram your version of childhood

59:43

down her throat so aggressively

59:45

that she experiences you as a bully.

59:47

There is an aggressiveness to forcing someone

59:49

to think the way that you think and deny their

59:51

reality, and I think

59:53

you do that as much for yourself as you do for Natalia.

59:57

You are trying so hard to

1:00:00

convince both of you that

1:00:02

it was okay,

1:00:04

because that's been your coping mechanism that has in

1:00:06

some ways worked your advantage and in some ways

1:00:09

not so. The ways that it has not

1:00:11

has been you haven't really made room not

1:00:13

only for Natalia's feelings, but

1:00:16

for your feelings. So when

1:00:18

Natalia shares her pain with you, we'd

1:00:21

like you to look for an aspect of your

1:00:23

own pain in what she's

1:00:25

saying. Yours might look different, but

1:00:28

we've learned in this conversation that you do have

1:00:31

some pain. That it's very

1:00:33

hard for you to sit in your pain

1:00:35

because it feels so uncomfortable, because that

1:00:37

was how feelings were dealt with

1:00:40

in your family. But

1:00:42

we'd like you to get some practice

1:00:44

with sitting with your feelings

1:00:46

a little bit acknowledging that they're there and

1:00:48

not using that intellectual part of yourself

1:00:51

to talk yourself out of those feelings,

1:00:54

and partly as a parent, yourself so

1:00:57

that you model something different

1:01:00

or your child until you can get in touch with your

1:01:02

own feelings. Okay,

1:01:04

Yes, and so as part

1:01:06

of that, this is leading into task number

1:01:08

three. We

1:01:10

feel like you really haven't dealt with your feelings around

1:01:13

your father. That he was this person

1:01:16

that you could go to emotionally in the family,

1:01:18

and yet he also favored your sister,

1:01:20

and he also had a drinking problem, and

1:01:23

he abandoned you

1:01:26

when you, inadvertently and on

1:01:28

his advice, ended

1:01:30

up hurting your sister, and

1:01:33

you didn't get any kind of goodbye with him,

1:01:35

any kind of repair with him. So we'd

1:01:37

like you to write a letter to

1:01:40

your father and really go into the feelings

1:01:43

part where you expressed

1:01:46

to him what you weren't able to express to him

1:01:49

before he died. I

1:01:51

loved you so much.

1:01:55

Those times when we would talk about things when

1:01:57

I was being bullied at school, when the

1:01:59

girls were unkind to me, when you

1:02:01

were there for me meant the world

1:02:03

to me. I couldn't do that with Mom. I was

1:02:06

scared of Mom, and you were

1:02:09

my sanctuary. And these

1:02:11

are the feelings as you're crying right now that

1:02:15

we're talking about

1:02:19

Dad. I loved you so much.

1:02:22

You were so there for me when I was all

1:02:24

alone. You have no

1:02:26

idea what that meant to me. And

1:02:28

then at the end, becoming

1:02:30

a mom was so important to me, and instead

1:02:33

of being able to celebrate that with me,

1:02:35

you disowned me. You didn't

1:02:37

tell me how sick you were. I didn't

1:02:39

get to have any kind of repair with

1:02:42

you. I never got to tell you this. We

1:02:44

never got to talk about how much

1:02:46

you meant to me and also how much you hurt

1:02:48

me. And

1:02:50

so I want to tell you this now, dad, Okay,

1:02:56

And I think that that will be a starting point

1:02:58

for you to really get in touch with

1:03:00

some of the feelings you had around the

1:03:03

patterns in your family, the relationships

1:03:05

in your family, and how they affect not

1:03:07

just you and your sister today, but

1:03:09

how they affect you and your own relationships

1:03:12

today with your son, with

1:03:15

a partner that it sounds like you hope to meet

1:03:18

one day, and

1:03:21

with yourself.

1:03:23

Okay, one last thing

1:03:27

we said, we would like you with your sister to

1:03:29

have several rounds the letter. Maybe

1:03:32

there's a phone call or more emails of

1:03:35

really just absorbing and containing.

1:03:38

If she's angry, if she's hurtful,

1:03:42

that doesn't mean you do that forever. You

1:03:45

do get to set limits at some point, and you do get

1:03:47

to say to her, I'm actually trying

1:03:49

to make things better between us. I'd

1:03:51

love for you to participate in that. See

1:03:54

if you can kind of quote unquote break

1:03:56

her so that she really gets it and trusts

1:03:59

because it's a trust thing. And

1:04:01

if she can, that's wonderful. If you can't, at some point,

1:04:04

you don't have to keep showing up for the beating.

1:04:06

So keep in mind that there is at

1:04:08

some point if you're not seeing any movement,

1:04:12

you get to say, you know what, I've really been trying here.

1:04:14

But if you're just going to keep being

1:04:16

hurtful, it doesn't encourage me to keep

1:04:18

trying. And I would like to tell

1:04:20

me how I hurt you without

1:04:25

attacking me.

1:04:28

Yeah, okay,

1:04:31

Oh we'll try that. Thank you. Thank you both really

1:04:34

appreciate it. I really appreciate your time and all

1:04:37

your advice and helping me to

1:04:39

see things from her perspective. I don't think

1:04:41

I would have been able to without hearing

1:04:44

and talking with the both of you.

1:04:46

And we're also helping you to see things

1:04:48

from your perspective that you've been pushing down

1:04:50

for many decades.

1:04:53

Yes, very

1:04:55

true.

1:04:56

We'll be thinking about you. We really hope it goes well.

1:04:58

I so appreciate you it's really

1:05:00

wonderful to speak with both of you. I appreciate

1:05:02

your time very much. Thank you.

1:05:10

I think this session was a good illustration

1:05:13

of how sometimes somebody

1:05:15

comes in and they want help with their issue,

1:05:18

but we spend a lot of time helping them to

1:05:20

see somebody else's perspective.

1:05:23

And partly here it wasn't so that we could

1:05:25

focus so much on her sister, but

1:05:28

it was to help a Lease get

1:05:31

in touch with the emotional side

1:05:33

of her own experience of childhood

1:05:36

and for a Lease to really understand

1:05:38

that she doesn't fully know the

1:05:41

version of her own story of childhood

1:05:44

yet she's just at the very beginning

1:05:47

of reflecting on that and understanding

1:05:49

herself.

1:05:50

Well, yeah, absolutely right, especially

1:05:52

when somebody comes in and says, there's somebody

1:05:54

very important in my life who just sees

1:05:56

everything so radically different

1:05:59

than I do, and we fight about

1:06:01

it all the time. And when you hear that,

1:06:03

and you hear that they don't have insight

1:06:06

into the other person's perspective, then

1:06:08

it's actually really important to help them

1:06:11

see the other person's perspective, because that's almost

1:06:13

like opening a door that other things can happen,

1:06:16

you can go through. But unless you can get that door

1:06:18

open. There's no repair that can

1:06:20

be done.

1:06:21

Yeah. And also I think it really

1:06:23

highlighted for a lease getting

1:06:26

some kind of understanding of the pain

1:06:28

that happened at the end with her father understanding.

1:06:31

It actually does feel bad when

1:06:33

my mom can't have a relationship

1:06:36

with my son, because it reminds

1:06:38

me of what I felt like

1:06:42

as the daughter of this particular

1:06:44

mom, and in

1:06:46

being able to find the common ground with her

1:06:48

sister. Yes, there were different points of

1:06:50

pain, but we also lived in the same house

1:06:53

and reacted in some way

1:06:55

to the difficulties that were going on, and

1:06:58

at least we can agree on that.

1:07:00

I'm really curious to see how this goes for her this

1:07:02

week. Both I'm

1:07:04

curious to see how Natalia will respond,

1:07:07

and I'm especially curious if she does respond,

1:07:09

how Alice will manage that response,

1:07:12

and whether she can really stay with

1:07:14

her feelings because they are difficult

1:07:16

and she's not used to it. Yeah.

1:07:18

I thought it was really telling when at the end

1:07:20

of the session she brought those photos

1:07:23

up for us to see, to say, look

1:07:25

at our happy childhood, look at our great relationship.

1:07:28

I felt in that moment what Natalia

1:07:31

must feel when she's trying to

1:07:33

say, let's look at the both and

1:07:35

let's look at this other part of the experience too,

1:07:38

But no, no, no, here are the pictures. So

1:07:41

I'm really curious to see what happens this week.

1:07:48

You listening to deotherapists. We'll be

1:07:50

back after a short break.

1:08:04

So, Guy, we heard from Elise, and I'm curious

1:08:07

to see how things went with the

1:08:09

assignments we gave her.

1:08:10

Dear Laurie and Guy, thank you

1:08:12

again for taking the time to listen to my story

1:08:15

and offer me some advice and a bit of homework

1:08:17

to try and help me. Your first assignment

1:08:19

was to write an email to my sister and validate

1:08:22

her experience and feelings. I

1:08:24

did my best to come across as truly hurtfelt

1:08:26

warm, conciliatory, and inviting

1:08:29

future conversations with her. I've

1:08:31

not heard back from her since I sent that email

1:08:33

a few days ago. I do intend to follow

1:08:35

up with weekly, friendly short check ins, as

1:08:38

you both suggested, in case there

1:08:40

continues to be no response for her. Your

1:08:43

second task was to look more deeply into

1:08:45

my own feelings and work on my ability to

1:08:47

express them better. I realized

1:08:50

from our talk that I do tend to focus on the good

1:08:52

and dismiss the bad in my life.

1:08:54

I've done my best to quickly get rid of bad feelings

1:08:56

like anger or sadness. After

1:08:59

we chatted, I reflected and realized

1:09:01

that I had talked about how great a sister she was

1:09:03

and how little we fought. Well.

1:09:06

I remember now some of the negative things

1:09:08

between us, like how we were washing

1:09:10

dishes one night, argued and she

1:09:12

threw a pot of water all over me. I

1:09:15

remember a huge fight we had when I was in second

1:09:17

grade and I ended up in the emergency room

1:09:19

with fourteen stitches on my arm and a few

1:09:21

in my face, And when she was

1:09:23

angry with me, she'd locked me in the garage.

1:09:26

Later on, when I was struggling and fighting with

1:09:28

my axe and being a single mom, she

1:09:30

told me I was probably not capable of being a

1:09:32

good mother and that I should put my baby up

1:09:35

for adoption. So you both

1:09:37

seemed quite perceptive to this aspect of my

1:09:39

personality. That I tend to bury my pain in

1:09:41

bad memories. I need to work on that.

1:09:45

Your third and last assignment was the most

1:09:47

painful, which was to write a letter to my

1:09:49

dad expressing both my love for him, yet

1:09:51

also how much she let me down and abandoned

1:09:53

me, how he chose my sister over

1:09:56

me, and how he refused to reach out to comfort

1:09:58

me knowing how much pain I was in. This

1:10:01

was the most painful part of your homework, and

1:10:03

to be honest, I don't feel much better

1:10:05

after writing it. It's been over

1:10:07

ten years since he died, and I'm so grieving

1:10:10

and upset thinking about how is death unfolded.

1:10:14

I do want to thank you both again for all your

1:10:16

help and insights into my story. We

1:10:18

both helped me reframe things, and

1:10:20

though I can't repair what happened with my dad, maybe

1:10:23

there is some hope with my sister. I

1:10:25

do miss her very much and it would be great

1:10:28

if we could be real sisters and involved

1:10:30

in each other's lives again. Bye

1:10:32

for now.

1:10:37

The first thing that struck me about

1:10:40

Elisa's response is

1:10:43

I remember her showing us those

1:10:45

pictures of her and her sister and saying,

1:10:47

look, we had such a happy childhood.

1:10:49

Look we were so close, we

1:10:51

had such a great relationship as sisters.

1:10:54

And then to hear these stories that were not

1:10:57

just painful, but they

1:10:59

were extreme, locking

1:11:01

her away, throwing

1:11:03

a pot of water on her telling

1:11:06

her that she should put her child up for adoption.

1:11:10

This is a very different version of events.

1:11:12

So I'm glad that A. Lisa is starting

1:11:14

to see that there's

1:11:16

another side to this relationship

1:11:19

because her mom had this sort of always

1:11:22

be happy attitude, that

1:11:25

she has adopted this well and

1:11:27

needs to be able to see the reality

1:11:29

of the relationship as opposed to just the sunny

1:11:32

version.

1:11:33

Yes, I was equally surprised

1:11:35

because we were talking about this

1:11:37

for quite a while. She had a lot of opportunity to

1:11:40

have her memory jogged and to say,

1:11:42

oh, you know what, I'm actually remembering one of

1:11:44

the not great moments. But you're right, these

1:11:47

are quite extreme landing in the hospital with fourteen

1:11:49

stitches to the arm to the face, and

1:11:52

had we heard this information, it

1:11:54

might have shifted our perspective, both

1:11:57

of the sister and certainly of the relationship

1:11:59

ends certainly of the extent

1:12:03

to which Elise is good at ignoring

1:12:05

the bad and focusing on the

1:12:07

good, and our advice might have been different

1:12:10

had we known that.

1:12:12

I agree.

1:12:13

I think we were wanting at least to explore

1:12:15

how much flexibility

1:12:17

Natalia had when

1:12:20

she felt validated and heard. But

1:12:22

now we're getting a different version of

1:12:25

Natalia. And I'm

1:12:27

not sure how

1:12:29

much capacity Natalia

1:12:31

has for this kind

1:12:34

of reciprocal conversation,

1:12:36

given how extreme

1:12:38

her behavior has been even as

1:12:41

a child. So I think we might have

1:12:44

given a different assignment in terms of

1:12:47

what to do going forward with Natalia.

1:12:50

And I think it also explains a little bit

1:12:52

the dad's actions, because if Natalia from

1:12:54

the beginning had really big feelings

1:12:57

about things and Alisa didn't seem

1:12:59

to have as big because she was so

1:13:01

good at the denial, then the dad might

1:13:03

have been in the mode of having to soothe

1:13:05

the child that's more emotionally volatile.

1:13:08

And then right at the end of his life, when he was so

1:13:10

angry with Elise for actually just following

1:13:12

the advice he gave her, don't tell your sister

1:13:15

you're pregnant, maybe

1:13:17

that was out of concern for the

1:13:19

sister because she's more fragile, and

1:13:21

he was used to just protecting

1:13:24

the older sister because she was more overt

1:13:27

in her feelings than Elisa, was much

1:13:29

harder to see when Elise was hurting, and he might

1:13:31

have just replicated that same dynamic

1:13:33

of let's tend to look squeaky your wheel.

1:13:36

He might have truly been frightened given Natalia's

1:13:39

behavior, of what she might do

1:13:41

right if she felt so

1:13:44

much pain around her not being able

1:13:46

to get pregnant, and

1:13:49

then her sister is and Natalia

1:13:51

seems like she can be extremely

1:13:54

reactive in unpredictable

1:13:57

ways, and he might have been concerned

1:13:59

about would she harm herself, what

1:14:01

would she do to others? So going

1:14:04

to that last assignment where Alice was

1:14:06

saying writing the letter was really

1:14:08

hard for her and

1:14:10

it didn't give her much relief, I think

1:14:12

this is the first step, is that you need

1:14:14

to be able to get

1:14:16

those feelings out, as painful as

1:14:19

they are, and get

1:14:21

clear about This is what

1:14:23

I wish my dad had known. This

1:14:25

is what I wish that I could have told

1:14:27

him, and maybe understanding a

1:14:29

little bit more about why he did what he

1:14:32

did, not to excuse what he did or not

1:14:34

to take away the pain of what he did, but

1:14:36

to understand a little bit more

1:14:38

about the pickle that

1:14:40

he was in and the pickle that we were all

1:14:42

in in the family.

1:14:44

And I think it's very possible that

1:14:47

because she wrote this letter and

1:14:50

she's thinking about these things, that much

1:14:52

like happened with Natalia. More

1:14:54

memories of her relationship with her father

1:14:57

might start to come back

1:14:59

to her. That makes the relationship with

1:15:01

her dad much more mixed and ambivalent

1:15:03

than she had presented to us based

1:15:06

on the memory she had. So it's possible that

1:15:08

that's one of the reasons she didn't

1:15:10

feel relief, because it's a much more complicated

1:15:12

relationship with her dad than

1:15:14

she had described as No, everything was great

1:15:16

with us, just this thing

1:15:19

happened out to the blue.

1:15:20

I think because he was the more available

1:15:23

parent that she idealized her

1:15:25

relationship with her father, because we

1:15:27

do that as children. When there's somebody that

1:15:29

at least gives you something, then

1:15:31

we idealize that parent as the

1:15:34

good parent, the parent who saw me. And

1:15:37

in some ways I'm sure he did, but

1:15:39

there were probably many ways that he

1:15:41

didn't, especially because he was drinking. So

1:15:44

I think being able to acknowledge, as

1:15:46

you said, the complexity of

1:15:48

the relationship might be

1:15:50

really helpful for her instead

1:15:52

of the idealized relationship that seems

1:15:55

to have crashed all of a sudden at the end of his life.

1:15:58

Maybe that complexity was

1:16:00

there the whole time, and now she's

1:16:02

just finally seeing it.

1:16:03

And so maybe this is an opportunity for her

1:16:06

to re examine all the relationships

1:16:08

she has in her life and really try and look

1:16:11

at all of them more accurately.

1:16:13

I would strongly suggest she do that with help of a

1:16:15

therapist.

1:16:15

Where this might lead for her is

1:16:18

to a process of grieving in

1:16:21

a way that will help her to move forward

1:16:23

instead of staying stuck in

1:16:26

these ideas about her childhood

1:16:28

that she's been holding on to. Maybe

1:16:31

she won't have the kind of relationship

1:16:34

with her sister that she wants. Her

1:16:36

sister just might not be capable of

1:16:38

that, and there's some grieving there.

1:16:40

Her mother she's seen as a grandmother,

1:16:43

she's just not capable of it. And

1:16:46

the father, we saw what he was capable

1:16:48

of or not capable of at the end of his life.

1:16:51

So I think there's a lot of grieving to be done

1:16:53

so that she can move forward and

1:16:55

find more satisfying relationships

1:16:58

now in her present life, whether

1:17:01

that's a romantic relationship, platonic

1:17:03

relationships, having the kind

1:17:06

of relationship with her son that she wants

1:17:08

to have. I think that

1:17:10

that is the path forward for her finding

1:17:12

the kinds of relationships that she

1:17:14

didn't have. But she's going to need to really

1:17:17

do some grieving in order to

1:17:19

move forward and make space for those

1:17:21

new relationships that are healthier and

1:17:23

more satisfying.

1:17:25

I really hope she does this work. She's I think,

1:17:27

capable of having a much more satisfying

1:17:29

and emotionally connected life

1:17:32

than she's had.

1:17:33

So fuck absolutely. Next

1:17:38

week, a woman who feels rejected by

1:17:40

her husband wonders if there's any hope for

1:17:42

their marriage.

1:17:43

I'd given them an ultimatum where I said,

1:17:45

let's focus on our relationship intensively.

1:17:48

If things don't go in the right direction,

1:17:50

we're going to have to figure out the next step.

1:17:52

He told me that I was threatening to force,

1:17:54

and then he said, I'm done.

1:17:56

If you're enjoying our podcast, don't forget

1:17:59

to subscribe for free so you don't miss any episodes,

1:18:01

and please help support your therapists by

1:18:03

telling your friends about it and leaving a review

1:18:06

on Apple Podcasts. Your reviews

1:18:08

really help people to find the show.

1:18:11

If you have a dilemma you'd like to discuss with us,

1:18:13

email us at laurandguy

1:18:16

at iHeartMedia dot com.

1:18:18

Our executive producer is Noel

1:18:20

Brown. We're produced and edited by Josh

1:18:22

Fisher. Additional editing support

1:18:25

by Zachary Fisher and Katie Matty.

1:18:28

Our intern is an Anna Doherty and

1:18:30

special thanks to our podcast fairy Godmother

1:18:32

Katie Couric. We can't wait to

1:18:34

see you at our next session. The

1:18:37

Therapist is a production of iHeartRadio,

1:18:45

Fish Food