0:03

I'm Laurie Gottlieb. I'm the author of

0:05

Maybe You Should Talk to Someone, and I write

0:08

the Dear Therapist advice column for the Atlantic.

0:10

And I'm Guy Wench. I'm the author of

0:13

Emotional First Aid, and I write the Dear

0:15

Guy advice column for Ted. And

0:17

this is Dear Therapists.

0:19

Each week we invite you into a real session

0:21

where we help people confront the problems in their

0:24

lives and then give them actionable advice

0:26

and have them report back to let us know what happened

0:29

when they did what we suggested.

0:30

So sit back and welcome to

0:32

today's session. This

0:35

week, a woman who feels rejected

0:37

by her husband wonders if there's any

0:39

hope for their marriage.

0:41

I'd given them an ultimatum a month and a

0:43

half before that, where I said, let's

0:45

focus on our relationship intensively. If

0:47

things don't go in the right direction, we're

0:50

going to have to figure out the next step. He

0:52

told me that I was threatening divorce, and

0:54

then he said I'm done. I'm

0:57

just done.

0:57

First A quick note, Dear Therapist is for informational

1:00

purposes only. It does not constitute

1:02

medical or psychological advice and is not a substitute

1:05

for professional healthcare advice, diagnosis, or

1:07

treatment. By submitting a letter, you are agreeing

1:09

to let iHeartMedia use it in part orn ful,

1:11

and we may edit it for length and clarity. In

1:13

the session you'll hear all names have been changed for the privacy

1:15

of our guests. Hey

1:20

guy, Hi Laurie. What do we have

1:22

in our mailbox today?

1:24

Today we have a letter about a marriage

1:26

that's very young and not

1:29

going too well. And it goes

1:31

like this, deotherapists.

1:34

My husband and I have been married for a year

1:36

and five months. We dated

1:39

long distance for only nine months, and

1:41

I was so sure I was making the right decision

1:43

in marrying him. I didn't think twice

1:45

about it. During our courtship,

1:48

we facetimed about an hour every day

1:50

and had weekly date nights where we would get dressed

1:53

up, drink wine, and discuss one or two

1:55

of the thirty six questions to lead

1:57

to love. We would sometimes play

1:59

music together, and the trips when we would see each

2:01

other were full of affection, cuddling,

2:04

good conversations, romance, and

2:06

fun. I thought I had found my dream

2:08

man. Soon after we got

2:10

married, there was a sudden change in his behavior.

2:13

He does not like to sit right next to me on the couch

2:15

anymore, but now on the space of at least

2:18

six inches between us. He has

2:20

become snippy with me, and when I tried to make

2:22

conversation, he often gives me one word answers.

2:25

He's gregarious with his teenage son, friends

2:27

in the community and acquaintances, and

2:29

he's charmed my family and friends. I'm

2:32

not sure exactly what happened between us. When

2:35

I moved across the country and into his house.

2:37

I tried to redecorate the house and took down most

2:39

of the artwork in the living room so I could put up

2:41

my own. I was under the impression that I could

2:43

redecorate the house, but he did not appreciate

2:46

this, and that ended up being our first real

2:48

fight as a couple. He's

2:51

been colder to me ever since then. I

2:53

waited so long to find this man and

2:55

would love for things to work out between us,

2:57

but I feel like I'm his last priority.

3:00

His parents tolerate each other but don't

3:02

enjoy each other's company or companionship.

3:05

My parents had an extremely loving, fun, affectionate

3:07

relationship. My mom also

3:10

passed away suddenly two years ago. I'm

3:12

thirty eight and really want to be a mum, but

3:14

I don't know if I can waste more of my time with

3:16

him. We've been to therapy,

3:19

but his work schedule often doesn't work with our

3:21

therapists, so he hasn't been able to join

3:23

me in therapy for months.

3:25

I gave him an ultimatum that we wouldn't try for

3:27

a kid together for the next three months

3:29

and would focus intensively on our relationship.

3:32

I suggested doing a marriage workshop or

3:34

seeing another therapist, but he's against

3:36

the idea. I would appreciate

3:38

any guidance on how to proceed. Thank

3:41

you, Emily.

3:43

The thing that really stands out for me here is

3:45

just the lack of communication that's

3:48

going on with this couple. She

3:50

mentioned that she moved

3:52

in with him and

3:55

she redecorated the living

3:57

room, but it doesn't sound like they

4:00

talked about it first. And then they had

4:02

what she said was their first real fight is a

4:04

couple, and I wonder what that looked

4:06

like. How did they talk about

4:08

this disagreement? And the other thing that really

4:10

stood out to me was that he does

4:13

not want to engage with

4:15

her in any way, even

4:17

after she's made several attempts

4:19

to try to talk in therapy with

4:22

him, to try to go to a workshop together. He

4:24

just seems to flat out refuse.

4:27

I think that is very concerning. And the other thing

4:29

is that with all of that, and with the

4:31

sudden change of behavior that she talks about,

4:34

she doesn't give us any hint of

4:36

the why. It sounds like she doesn't know. So

4:38

in all the conversations they've had so far, in the therapy

4:41

that they've been to, and that he did attend a little

4:43

love, I don't know if that didn't come up

4:45

or if she never got a satisfactory answer,

4:47

because she sounds bewildered and confused.

4:50

The other thing that strikes me is

4:52

that she said her mom passed away

4:55

suddenly two years ago, which seems

4:58

right about the time that either

5:00

she was getting into this relationship or was

5:02

already in this relationship. And

5:05

I wonder what she's done in

5:07

terms of her grieving. She mentions

5:09

that she's thirty eight and she really wants to be a mom

5:11

herself, and I wonder how

5:14

this all fits together.

5:15

We have so many questions, So let's

5:18

go talk to her and get some answers.

5:22

You're listening to, dear therapists for my heart

5:24

Radio. We'll be back after a short break.

5:34

I'm Laurie Gottlieb.

5:35

And I'm Guy Wench and this is dear

5:37

Therapist.

5:40

Hi Emily, Hi Guy, Hi

5:42

Laurie.

5:43

It's very nice of you to come on our show.

5:45

Thank you so much for taking my letter.

5:47

So, Emily, we were looking at the timeline,

5:49

and from what you were writing, it seems

5:52

that you met your husband around

5:55

the same time that your mom had passed

5:57

away, and we weren't quite sure of what happened

5:59

when and how one affected the other. Could you

6:01

tell us a little bit about that.

6:03

Yes, So, my mom passed away a

6:05

little over two years ago. She

6:07

had a heart attack, died very suddenly,

6:10

and so I moved back home

6:13

to be with my dad to help him out. And

6:17

right before I moved back home, I

6:19

decided to add this

6:22

guy on Facebook

6:24

who I had met a couple times in person.

6:27

It just so happens that his family

6:30

lived out where

6:32

my dad lived, and he was out

6:34

there visiting his family. We decided

6:37

to meet up when I was moving back there. So

6:39

it was just kind of this amazing serendipitous

6:42

meeting where we met

6:44

up a few times. He was out there for Thanksgiving

6:47

and I was just moving back there

6:49

to help my dad out, and then he was

6:52

coming back here where we live now,

6:54

on the other side of the country. Basically, I

6:56

guess it was about two months

6:58

after my mom passed way, so

7:01

then we started dating long distance

7:04

and then got married pretty quickly. But

7:07

yeah, I kind of I wonder if my mom

7:09

passing away, if that kind of opened me

7:11

up to wanting to

7:15

be really committed in a relationship.

7:18

I think that might have been a

7:20

factor there.

7:21

Where were you in terms of

7:23

your own relationships at

7:26

the time that you started

7:28

dating your husband, meaning had you been

7:30

in other long term relationships? When

7:32

was your last relationship before this?

7:35

Yeah, I've been in several maybe

7:37

one to two year long relationships

7:40

that some of them started out very

7:44

serious. I thought they were going in the direction

7:46

of marriage, and then one or the

7:48

other party ended things just because

7:50

things didn't feel right or didn't seem

7:52

like they were going in that direction in the timeline

7:55

that I wanted. I didn't really want

7:57

to date someone for like seven or eight years before

8:00

we getting married and having kids. I've always

8:02

known I wanted kids, So a

8:05

lot of the relationships kind

8:07

of ended because they wanted

8:09

to keep dating for several more years

8:11

before getting engaged and then moving

8:14

on.

8:14

But you're saying, Emilie that many of them started

8:17

out serious and then kind

8:19

of ran into problems. I'm just curious

8:21

about how quickly things became serious,

8:24

because I understand there's a difference between obviously waiting

8:26

seven and eighty is and waiting seven to

8:28

eight minutes, and so I'm just curious about how serious

8:32

quickly.

8:32

That's a good question. The other very

8:35

serious relationship I had, it lasted

8:37

maybe almost a year, and it was in the

8:39

first month. We were talking about

8:41

big things like having a family

8:44

together, and you know, said

8:46

I love you very early on, like in the first

8:48

month or so.

8:50

You're saying that the

8:52

relationships ended because you

8:55

wanted to get married and have kids.

8:58

But it sounds like in the relationship you're

9:00

describing that that person

9:03

was very serious from the beginning. So

9:05

how does it shift from we're

9:07

really serious, this person was

9:09

talking about marriage in the first month to

9:12

finding out this person actually doesn't

9:14

want something serious.

9:16

Yeah, that's a good question. So the

9:18

other relationship I'm thinking of, some

9:21

things came out about him

9:23

and that concerned me, and I brought them

9:25

up, and then I think he felt insecure

9:28

after that point, and he

9:30

didn't think he could live up maybe to my expectations.

9:34

So it went on maybe another six

9:36

months, and then he ended things.

9:39

What were your expectations that were hard to live

9:41

up to?

9:41

He was kind of into more partying than

9:43

I was, like with his guy

9:46

friends. He would do some drugs

9:49

that I wasn't comfortable with, and he

9:52

said that he would be willing

9:55

to change those habits,

9:58

but I felt like it was kind of a

10:00

forced thing, and I think

10:02

he said that I was kind of controlling,

10:04

so I felt like he didn't really mean it

10:07

when he said he wanted to change those habits.

10:10

Is that something that has happened

10:13

with you several times where it's very

10:15

intense in the beginning, And by the way, often

10:17

things are very intense in the beginning of a relationship

10:20

because people are really excited about each other. But

10:22

it sounds like things go from zero

10:25

to sixty. Yeah, right

10:27

away.

10:28

That's the big one really where it went from

10:30

zero to sixty. There was maybe another one also

10:32

that it was started out really

10:35

intense and then fell apart,

10:37

and this other guy I'm thinking of ended

10:39

up having some alcohol issues.

10:41

But part of what goes from zero to sixty

10:44

are your expectations? It sounds

10:46

like, in other words, I might get really

10:49

excited about someone and might

10:51

even say I love you to that someone and talk

10:53

about maybe marriage and kids. It

10:56

times that I don't really fully know them yet,

10:59

and then when I find out more, it turns

11:01

out maybe that's not that possible.

11:04

With your current husband,

11:06

things started long distance. But it sounds

11:08

like your expectations went

11:11

from zero to sixty again.

11:12

Yeah, they did. He was

11:15

giving all the signals that he wanted the same

11:17

things as I did. He told me on our first

11:19

date, like I want marriage and a family,

11:22

and I thought that was really attractive. Actually,

11:24

I've really liked the directness, and

11:27

I haven't met too many guys

11:29

who turn out

11:31

to actually want a family. I

11:33

feel like I've met a lot who maybe

11:36

say they do, and then they end up having

11:38

some issues that get

11:41

in the way of that.

11:42

You seem to have choked up a little

11:44

bit when you said you haven't met many guys

11:46

who have wanted a family. Can

11:49

you talk about what just happened there?

11:51

Yeah? I mean, like, I

11:54

guess I would love to have the whole package.

11:57

Someone who's really awesome wants to spend

12:00

a life together and grow together

12:02

and has the same like long term

12:05

goals with a family. Maybe it's

12:07

made me a little impatient when I'm dating

12:09

people.

12:10

I don't think the issue, Emily, is that

12:12

some of these guys are saying, yes, I want marriage

12:15

and a family, and many other guys do not, And

12:17

so that means okay, good, they're

12:19

at least serious and want the same things I do.

12:21

What a relief To feel that relief

12:24

and to feel like, Okay, this is the right track, I think

12:26

is absolutely fine. I think what happens,

12:28

though, is that that excitement

12:31

and the impatience, as you pointed out, makes

12:34

you fill in a

12:36

complete picture from just

12:38

a few dots. Yeah, and so you're

12:41

making a ton of assumptions about what's filling

12:43

in those dots, and then you're in the process

12:45

of discovery about whether this lives up

12:47

to the assumptions that you've made. Yeah,

12:50

but the impatience is causing you to decide

12:52

on a prospect before you've fully vetted

12:56

that person.

12:56

Yeah, that's one hundred percent correct. That's

12:59

a good point.

13:00

Is it one you've been aware of?

13:01

I definitely am aware of it. With dev

13:03

like, it's been pretty clear

13:06

things changed, so quickly, and

13:08

I did think I was vetting him by

13:11

having daily conversations,

13:13

hour long FaceTime meetings and

13:16

then also weekly date nights, And

13:18

I thought that that kind of thing would continue,

13:21

and he had different ideas when it

13:23

came to marriage, like it just

13:26

it didn't continue suddenly pretty suddenly.

13:29

So yeah, I did fill in the blanks, I think,

13:31

But I also I thought I was like

13:34

doing my due diligence and

13:36

getting to know him.

13:38

Did he propose while you were still long distance?

13:41

Yes, so you decided

13:43

to get married even though you had never lived in the same

13:45

city, right. Did

13:48

you think that maybe things would be different when

13:51

you're actually in the same location.

13:54

You don't have to be living together, but at least be in

13:56

the same city.

13:57

Yeah. I remember people suggested that

13:59

to us, like, well, maybe you could go there

14:01

and just work and live there

14:03

and get to know each other better. And I was like, no, we're

14:06

good, We're getting married.

14:08

So before you moved there to

14:10

get married, did you both

14:13

talk about what it would mean to be

14:16

married, and how did

14:18

you talk about integrating your

14:20

lives from being long distance

14:23

to all of a sudden moving in together

14:25

creating a life together. Sounds

14:27

like he was married before. He has

14:29

a teenager who lives with

14:31

him. How did you talk about

14:33

that? And did you even know his son?

14:36

I did know his son. We took a

14:38

lot of trips to see each other back and

14:40

forth, probably once

14:43

a month or so, a long weekend

14:45

at least, and then I spent like a two week period

14:47

with them before we got

14:49

married, and we were kind of getting the house

14:51

ready a little bit for me to move in, and

14:54

that all went pretty well. I knew we

14:56

weren't going to talk an hour every night at

14:58

dinner like we had been doing that whole

15:00

nine months, but he now

15:02

says that he neglected his son while

15:04

we were doing that. I knew things would

15:06

change, like we probably weren't going to have as

15:09

many high quality conversations, but

15:11

I didn't know things would change as much

15:14

as they did.

15:16

Is his son living with you full time?

15:18

He's with us halftime and

15:20

I'm actually I'm currently

15:23

out of the house. I moved out

15:26

about two weeks ago

15:28

because things came to a head. We had

15:30

a really big fight, probably

15:34

a couple weeks before I wrote the letter,

15:37

and he ended up stonewalling

15:39

me after that fight for like six

15:41

weeks.

15:42

What was the fight about?

15:44

So he's lived in this house for a long time,

15:47

and in our office

15:50

there's his desk, his son's

15:52

desk, and my desk, and

15:54

my desk was just piled with stuff because

15:56

I didn't have a bookshelf in there, and he

15:58

had two full bookshelves, and so

16:00

I was asking, Hey, can I

16:03

take over this one shelf

16:05

here to put some of my stuff

16:07

on. We had talked about that for actually

16:10

several weeks, like, hey, one of these weekends, let's

16:12

move the stuff from the shelf so I can put my stuff

16:14

on it. And it just didn't happen

16:16

week after week. So finally

16:19

I said, hey, listen, if

16:21

we don't get around to it next week, I'm just going to do

16:23

it on my own. And he got really

16:25

mad about that.

16:26

What does that look like? Where he got really mad about

16:28

that?

16:29

He raised his voice, kind

16:32

of gets really anxious,

16:35

uptight. It feels just

16:38

not good to be around him. He was like, don't

16:40

create a problem for me, Like, if

16:42

you move that, I'm not going to know where it is. That's

16:44

going to create another problem in this house.

16:47

And then I said, okay, listen, you can

16:50

make your own decisions

16:52

about what you do, but I'm going to take that into consideration.

16:55

I'd given him an ultimatum a month and

16:57

a half before that, where I said, let's

16:59

folks on our relationship intensively.

17:01

If things don't go in the right direction,

17:04

we're going to have to figure out the next step.

17:06

He told me that I was threatening divorce

17:08

and then he said I'm done. I'm

17:11

just done. So he basically stonewalled

17:14

me for six weeks after that.

17:16

What does that look like? He stonewalled you.

17:18

I started sleeping in a different room

17:20

because he asked you to no

17:23

because of just the tension from

17:25

that particular fight.

17:27

So he stonewalled you, but

17:29

in reaction you left

17:31

him.

17:33

Yeah, I guess we were both maybe stonewalling

17:35

each other.

17:36

Yes, your first big argument

17:39

was around the same issue of

17:41

you redecorating the house and

17:43

here you want to just move something Michelle

17:45

for much smaller endeavor than you know,

17:48

redoing the living room, and he's

17:50

not participating. Did you express

17:53

to him how you felt about those things?

17:55

Were you able to say things like, I really

17:57

want to be able to feel at home. The

17:59

way that you keep postponing this

18:02

makes me feel like you're not making room for

18:04

me figuratively literally, Were

18:06

you able to talk about the emotional piece for

18:08

you.

18:09

I did. I said all of that, and

18:12

his response he wanted

18:14

to redecorate together,

18:16

but when it came

18:19

down to, hey, here's a picture of a couch

18:21

that I think would look good, or here's some bookshelves I

18:23

think would look good, he ended up turning down

18:25

every proposal

18:27

I had. And I told

18:29

him that too. You say you'd want to work together,

18:31

but then you turn me down

18:34

for every suggestion I make.

18:36

So when you moved out, you said, two weeks ago,

18:39

how did that go down? And what's happened?

18:41

Since he and his son

18:43

were going to be out of town this one weekend,

18:46

and I was just like, okay, this is my opportunity

18:48

to get everything out of here.

18:51

I moved things into storage and now I'm

18:53

staying with friends. Since then, he's

18:55

written me. Actually every day he texts me and

18:57

asks how I'm doing, and he's trying

18:59

to be in touch a little bit.

19:01

I'm confused, Emily, because you said you had

19:03

that argument about the shelf. He said,

19:05

we're done, and then

19:08

you decided to move out, Like he

19:10

might have said that in a moment of

19:13

anger distress, but then

19:15

you decided to move out. It doesn't

19:17

sound like the two of you really

19:19

communicated about what happened

19:21

between you. What he meant by we're

19:24

done, why you were moving

19:26

out? Yeah, what do you think

19:28

it's in the way of the two of you communicating.

19:30

You mentioned that you went to couple's

19:33

therapy, and then it was

19:35

hard to get him to go there. But in the times

19:37

that he did go, there were the two of you able

19:39

to communicate it all.

19:41

Yeah. I really enjoyed couples there because

19:43

it was like one of the few times where we really

19:45

did communicate.

19:47

What was he able to tell you about himself

19:49

and his feelings about you coming

19:52

into his house and

19:54

coming into his life with his teenage son

19:57

and redecorating, and

20:00

and why he was feeling a little bit

20:02

crowded and wanted some space. Did

20:04

you understand the why of it?

20:06

Yeah? He also said he felt like

20:09

I was controlling. We didn't talk

20:11

a whole lot about the space

20:13

and the redecorating in Couple's Therapy.

20:15

I would say a lot of last year the beginning

20:18

was like me

20:20

meeting friends in this town.

20:22

We were in trying to

20:25

establish myself a little bit and

20:29

finding my own happiness. So I'm not completely

20:31

reliant on him.

20:32

Actually, Emani Laurie's asking what did

20:34

you learn about his feelings about

20:37

things? Because when you're saying he said,

20:39

I am controlling. What did you learn about how

20:41

he feels in these situations

20:43

or in any way about these

20:46

things?

20:47

I got a sense that he was very anxious

20:49

about his son graduating

20:53

from high school next year.

20:55

But what did you learn about his feelings about you?

20:58

He said, he was very grateful for me, and

21:01

he thought I added a lot to the family, and

21:03

he really loves me and cares

21:06

about me. I mean another complication

21:08

in first year of marriage, he found out he had

21:10

cancer, so he had to major actually

21:13

two major surgeries for that.

21:15

How far into the relationship were you when

21:18

he found out he had cancer?

21:19

About six months into the marriage he

21:21

found out he had cancer. I

21:24

wondered if the

21:27

lack of like good

21:31

communication and coming up with kind

21:33

of a system of communicating regularly

21:36

was because of all the things

21:39

he had to deal with with his health. But

21:41

his last surgery was almost

21:44

a year ago.

21:45

Was he able to talk about his feelings about

21:47

having cancer and how he's feeling

21:50

about those surgeries and prognosis

21:52

and all those.

21:53

Things a little bit? But

21:55

he's not an expressive person

21:58

about his feelings. He likes

22:01

to think of himself as this like

22:03

happy, go lucky, golden retriever.

22:06

People come to him with their problems. He's

22:08

just always the happy one. So

22:10

I think even with me, that really put

22:12

us at a distance, because he

22:15

wanted to come off as just

22:17

always had it together, didn't

22:20

really want to discuss things

22:23

that didn't make him look strong.

22:25

But you would ask him how he's speeding about these

22:28

things.

22:29

I don't think I did at that point?

22:31

Why not?

22:31

Do you think?

22:32

I think part of it was so

22:35

one of our assignments from our couple's

22:37

therapist was to check in with

22:39

each other every night and try to include

22:43

something about a feeling that something

22:46

good or bad that happened in the day. And

22:48

he just had a very hard time including

22:52

something that had to do with his feelings.

22:54

I'd bee like, so, how was your day and

22:57

he would say it was good, and I'm like, can you give

22:59

me more details? Else? Who did you interact with?

23:02

And he didn't really want to go there.

23:04

What you're asking, Emily is the what who

23:06

are you with those kinds of things. That's not

23:09

so much about feelings, that's reporting

23:11

events. I'm thinking

23:14

about the fact that your mom died

23:17

a couple months before you started this relationship,

23:20

and I don't know how

23:23

you processed your grief or

23:26

how you've gone through that. And

23:28

then your husband gets cancer

23:32

six months into your marriage,

23:35

and it sounds like the two of you

23:37

didn't really talk about what was going on for

23:39

either of you, and you keep talking about how he's

23:42

not a really good communicator. But

23:45

I wonder if you're

23:48

aware that maybe you

23:50

don't have a lot of practice in communicating,

23:54

and that when the two of you are together, do

23:56

you want to have some kind of communication

23:59

going on? Mm hmm, but that

24:01

maybe the way you're going about it

24:05

hasn't worked because the two of you just really

24:07

don't know how to do it. You

24:09

say he had cancer. I don't know. Is his prognosis

24:13

okay at this point and besides

24:15

surgeries, did he go through chemo, did he go

24:17

through radiation?

24:19

None of that? Just surgery

24:22

thankfully, so his prognosis is

24:24

pretty good.

24:25

But it must have been scary.

24:26

Yeah, it was terrifying for me. And

24:29

I think I did communicate that, especially

24:32

at the beginning when we were trying to figure out what was going

24:34

on, and I remember him saying he was scared

24:36

before the surgery.

24:38

Did you know how he wanted to be supported?

24:41

I think I did, and he was extremely

24:43

appreciative of me being there for him.

24:46

And he says, like, I saved his life because

24:48

I told him I like insisted

24:50

that he go to a really good cancer

24:52

treatment center. So

24:56

yeah, he was like, he

24:59

was very appreciate of that, which

25:01

was nice.

25:03

What makes you emotional when you're saying that right now?

25:06

I don't know. It's nice. I guess it's

25:08

just like he really I

25:11

think he did have maybe

25:13

he does have feelings of love

25:16

toward me, but he's it

25:18

just didn't get expressed enough.

25:22

And so when you recall a moment like this where

25:24

it the gratitude of the affection

25:27

did get expressed, that's moving.

25:29

Yeah.

25:31

I mean I want to get back to something you said earlier that was just

25:33

curious about. You said that he and his

25:35

son were out of town and that was

25:37

your opportunity to move out. Why

25:39

did you need an opportunity to

25:42

move out? Why did you have to wait for that.

25:44

We had started going to therapy. It was like

25:47

three weeks in a row, and that's the first

25:49

time we were going consistently

25:51

since last year. I think he

25:53

knew I was serious about what

25:55

I was saying, So I

25:58

was afraid, and I was thinking

26:00

about past relationships

26:03

where I've stayed too long, and

26:06

I've had this moment in those relationships

26:08

where I was like, oh my gosh, I wish I had left,

26:11

like nine months before when there was kind

26:13

of a window. It was just an

26:16

obvious window to get out.

26:18

You moved out without telling

26:20

him that you were moving out.

26:22

No, I texted him and told him he

26:24

was out of town. And that's kind of when I decided

26:26

to do it, when he had left

26:29

already and I just sent

26:31

him a text and.

26:32

Said, can we back up just

26:34

a second. You went a couple's

26:36

therapy. For three weeks, you'd been trying to get

26:38

him to go to therapy. He's finally going

26:40

to therapy, and you finally

26:43

get what you want, meaning

26:45

you're talking at least with a therapist,

26:48

and when you finally get what you want,

26:51

you decide to leave.

26:53

Yeah, what did you.

26:54

Learn about him in those three weeks?

26:57

If you could put aside all of your feelings

26:59

about when it happened, and you

27:01

were an observer and

27:05

like a journalist and just reporting

27:07

on this, what do you think

27:10

you would say, oh, this is what I

27:13

learned about what he was experiencing.

27:16

You don't have to agree with it, but just what

27:19

did you learn about his perspective?

27:22

I learned that from

27:24

his perspective, I wasn't taking

27:27

his story into account

27:29

or his needs and wants, which

27:32

were what the needs and wants well

27:35

with the house. But he really

27:38

wants to have a say in what

27:41

happens and what goes

27:43

on.

27:44

That he communicated to you, even independently

27:46

and before. But what did you learn about

27:49

his feelings or his needs

27:51

and wants, Because yes, it sounds like he's not

27:53

the most fluent and open

27:56

communicator about his feelings.

27:59

But as Laurie was saying, your communication

28:01

issues come when you

28:03

encounter someone like that. What tends to

28:05

happen with you is that you

28:07

think, Okay, I can't get information from them. I

28:09

need to make unilateral decisions and

28:12

think about what's best for me. And at

28:14

that point, you start making big decisions

28:17

without including him in

28:19

them, without communicating to him

28:21

about them, so you start

28:23

therapy. It would have been a good opportunity to say,

28:26

look, I'm starting this, but it is too

28:28

little, too late in some ways. So

28:30

I'm here because I want this to work out,

28:33

but I need things to progress,

28:36

and I want to be clear that I'm not here

28:38

with a ton of rope, at least to alert

28:40

him and the therapist that you know you're

28:43

in some kind of place there. But

28:45

yeah, those processes happen in

28:48

your head. You move out, you're living with him

28:50

and with a teenage boy who's going to be affected

28:52

by that, and it's not something

28:54

that's discussed. There's no preparation for

28:57

the kid about the move that's about to

28:59

happen. It's almost like, well, I decided and

29:01

I'm doing it. Do you notice that

29:03

you tend to start making

29:06

these decisions by yourself.

29:07

I actually did bring that up in therapy in

29:10

what way. The week before

29:13

I did send that text. We had

29:15

in our therapy meeting, I said

29:17

I'm looking at moving out.

29:19

What was his reaction.

29:21

He told me he didn't want me to move out, since

29:24

he told me I'm done, since that big

29:26

fight. That was one of the first times he

29:28

told me how much I do mean to him

29:30

and how much he

29:32

loves me, and he thinks I contribute

29:34

so much to his life and the good far

29:36

outweighs the bad.

29:37

And then you moved out anyway.

29:39

Yeah, why because

29:42

of the too little, too late.

29:43

I think I'm not sure why you wanted

29:45

to go to therapy with him if there was literally nothing

29:48

he could do to help prepare the

29:50

marriage.

29:51

In that last session, I did

29:53

say, I'm going to be looking at moving

29:55

out unless some kind of miracle happens,

29:57

like if you want to go to an intense therapy

30:00

workshop weekend with me.

30:02

But why are the anti because he's finally

30:04

coming to therapy consistently.

30:07

But any couple therapists, if you come in

30:09

and say, a couple syrapist, you have three

30:11

weeks to fix this because otherwise I'm out. No

30:14

couple syrvice would take you because I like,

30:16

well, that's not going to happen in three weeks, and so

30:18

let's not waste anyone's time or money. And so

30:21

he's actually going you actually

30:23

say I'm really thinking of leaving at this point,

30:26

and he's like, but I really appreciate you, and you

30:28

make my life richer. And at that point

30:30

you don't give it, say we'll

30:32

give this process six months and evaluate.

30:35

You literally cut and run. At

30:37

the point where he's I don't know

30:39

how much he would have been able to do, but he's showing up

30:42

at least. Yeah, Why that's not clear

30:45

to me. Why.

30:46

I guess it was like it was after the

30:48

sort of deadline I had already

30:51

given of, like let's

30:53

try to work on ourselves intensively for

30:55

three months. He wasn't able to go

30:57

to therapy that whole three months.

31:00

Why did you even engage in

31:02

therapy with him at that point if

31:04

you were sure that there was literally

31:06

nothing he could do to repair

31:09

the marriage. It sounds

31:11

like you weren't communicating that

31:13

you were done. And my other question is

31:16

why were you done if finally

31:19

you're getting what you want. He's coming

31:21

consistently, he's communicating

31:24

how much you mean to him. He's saying all the

31:26

things that he wasn't able to say

31:28

before. And as guy said, we don't

31:30

know what would have happened. Maybe you would

31:32

have found indeed, this is not a marriage

31:34

that works. But

31:37

right at the moment where finally

31:39

you two are in a position to communicate with

31:41

each other and get to know each other better,

31:44

you, as guys said, cut and run.

31:46

M hm.

31:47

Does that make sense to you? If you weren't

31:50

willing to give the marriage a chance, why

31:53

were you going to therapy? Why did you

31:55

ask him to go.

31:56

Yeah, that's a good question. I think I

31:58

wanted to talk to it and just hear

32:01

what was going on in his head at that point, because

32:03

I didn't know.

32:04

But you didn't communicate that. You didn't say, you know

32:06

what, Here we are in couple's therapy. There's absolutely

32:08

nothing I'm willing to do to repair this marriage.

32:11

But I just want to hear what's going on in your head.

32:13

Well, I did want big change to

32:15

happen in him, in us,

32:18

that.

32:18

You didn't give it an opportunity to happen.

32:20

Big change doesn't happen in three weeks.

32:23

Yeah, And to me it smacks a little

32:25

bit of stuff you've done

32:28

before, which is that you

32:30

decide in your own head.

32:32

Right.

32:32

This one wants a family, he wants kid, He's

32:35

kind, affectionate. It's a long distance. We only

32:37

see each other once in a while. We've never

32:39

even had an argument. I always say to people, and until

32:41

you've had an argument, you don't know the person. Now,

32:43

there's a lot that hasn't happened. I've met the

32:45

son, but I haven't lived with a son. I don't know how

32:47

that's going to go. My mom just

32:49

died recently. I might be looking

32:52

for another family as a replacement. Unconsciously,

32:55

all those things might have been going on, but you're goind

32:58

have decided, Okay, this is it. I'm going

33:00

for it. And at the point do you decide you're going for it,

33:03

the data doesn't matter because you're going to go for it.

33:05

So then you go, and you immediately assume

33:07

I get to redecorate the home that he's lived

33:09

in with his son without asking him,

33:11

and then he gets really upset, and then

33:14

you decide, Okay, I'm giving an ultimatum, not

33:16

let's talk together and give ourselves a

33:19

period of time. You give the ultimatum, and

33:21

you decide, and then, despite

33:23

a change in the circumstance of him again

33:25

with no guarantees, actually engaging

33:27

in a process that might even theoretically

33:30

lead to the big change you were looking for. Nope,

33:32

but I gave myself an ultimatum. So now I'm going to

33:34

make another unilateral decision and

33:36

move out and not even tell him.

33:40

And so you have this pattern of making

33:43

decisions that involved the other person

33:46

by yourself and then enacting them

33:48

regardless of whether that's a

33:50

fit with the new realities.

33:53

I think I also knew he would be really

33:55

upset when I like and I didn't want

33:57

to be there with them in the house

33:59

movie out.

34:00

Emily, I'm going to interrupt, because what

34:03

I notice is that when

34:05

I ask you a question, or Guy asked you a question, you

34:08

go off to something else. Guy

34:11

was talking about a pattern that he's noticed,

34:16

and I'm wondering if it made you uncomfortable

34:18

to hear that, and that's why you went off to

34:20

talk about more

34:22

content as opposed to your feelings. What

34:25

was it like to hear guy

34:27

talk about that pattern that you have. Maybe

34:31

it made you anxious, Maybe

34:33

it made you feel defensive.

34:35

Yeah, I think I do feel like a

34:37

little bit defensive, But it

34:40

is good to hear too,

34:43

and I know I have things I'd

34:45

like to work on.

34:46

We're not saying that dev

34:49

hasn't contributed at least fifty

34:51

percent to what's going

34:54

on between the two of you, but

34:56

we're saying there is something

34:58

that's going on with you that

35:01

maybe widens the gap between

35:04

what you say you want and what you actually

35:06

do. So you say you want

35:09

a stable relationship, You want,

35:11

as you said, the whole package. You want

35:13

this person that you really care about, that you

35:15

really love, that also wants the things that you

35:18

want in life, marriage, kids,

35:21

and then you do things

35:24

that set you up for not having that. We

35:26

don't know what dev is willing

35:28

to do or capable of doing, and I don't think

35:31

anybody has that information at this point,

35:33

but we do know that a

35:35

lot hasn't been talked about between the

35:37

two of you. That you had a long distance relationship

35:40

where you say he was very communicative and

35:43

very emotionally present, and

35:46

then you got in the same place.

35:48

There's obviously going to be a big adjustment to

35:51

living in the same place with someone integrating

35:53

into the family where there's already a teenager,

35:56

and then he gets very ill. You're

35:59

still dealing with the loss of your mother and

36:02

you want to be a mom yourself. And then

36:04

finally, after all of this, he

36:07

says, Okay, I'm coming to therapy. And

36:11

he's there consistently for three weeks, not

36:13

much, but you know, we don't know

36:15

what would have happened, and you text

36:17

him and say, I'm out of here. So

36:20

you wanted something, You started to

36:22

get closer to the possibility of

36:24

seeing whether or not that could happen, and

36:27

you leave, And that's the pattern

36:29

we're talking about. What's

36:32

important to us is for you to see whether it

36:34

works out with devor or you want to move on to

36:36

somebody else, that you see this pattern

36:38

so that it doesn't repeat.

36:41

Yeah, I feel like I need to

36:43

process it because it's like as soon as

36:45

something kind of shows

36:47

some kind of potential or possibility, I

36:50

make a unilateral decision a lot

36:53

like I've got to get out of here.

36:54

Yes, you described him as he was

36:56

the man of my dreams. And if

36:59

given it was a long distance relationship,

37:01

given it happened right after your

37:03

mom passed away, given

37:06

you never really had any big arguments, that

37:08

you never actually lived with him or

37:10

with the sixteen year old, then he couldn't have been

37:12

the man of your dreams because there was just too many unknowns.

37:14

But you kind of decided he's the man of

37:17

my dreams. Therefore I'm plunging

37:19

forth. And that part is problem

37:21

A and problem B is once you decide

37:23

to plunge forth, if there's signs that, oh,

37:25

maybe not so fast, you don't heed. And if there

37:27

are signs that maybe not so fast in terms

37:29

of leaving either, you don't heed. And

37:31

that's the issue that you make these decisions,

37:34

and then you do them by

37:36

hooker by crook, even if they counter your

37:39

own wishes and needs and what you

37:41

want.

37:42

Yeah, kind of impulsive decisions.

37:46

Reactive the reactive

37:48

decisions, and what you're

37:51

reacting to is a

37:53

deep longing and desire

37:57

for this connect

38:00

that you haven't found in any of your other relationships

38:03

either. And the question

38:05

is are you doing the things that will help you find

38:08

that or are you getting in things too

38:10

quickly, leaving them when

38:12

maybe there's a possibility of having

38:15

something better that gets in

38:17

the way of what your goal is.

38:20

Yeah, it would be one thing if you

38:22

went to therapy and dev

38:24

was not interested in having any

38:27

of these conversations or opening up in any

38:29

way that would give you really good information.

38:32

And even then, though you probably wouldn't

38:34

leave by text, it

38:36

would be a conversation in therapy, even

38:39

if he wasn't happy about it. This

38:42

is why I'm leaving. I don't feel

38:44

you're able to show up in the way that I need.

38:47

But he's trying to show up and

38:50

it's only been three weeks and

38:53

we're not saying stay or go. We're looking at

38:57

how you make these decisions that

38:59

seem to what you're

39:01

saying you want. You said,

39:03

I've always really wanted to be a mom. I want the guy,

39:06

I want the family, but

39:08

you haven't been able to find it. And I don't think

39:10

it's just about dev you've had other relationships.

39:14

I think this similar pattern has happened.

39:17

Yeah, And we want to make you aware of

39:19

the pattern, because if you're not aware of the pattern,

39:21

you'll repeat the pattern.

39:23

Yes, I don't want to do that.

39:25

And part of the pattern is as

39:27

loris saying, yes, you're thirty eight. Sure,

39:30

you have a lot of friends who've gotten married already,

39:32

you have kids already, and you're feeling the sense

39:34

of time and urgency, and

39:36

that's making you rush things. And

39:39

my concern for you right now is now

39:41

you're thirty eight and married and

39:43

you want to rush things again, Like I don't want to spend

39:45

too much time in therapy because I'm thirty eight. If it's not

39:47

going to work out, I need to end this and move on

39:49

to the next thing. And then you're really

39:52

likely to rush the next thing.

39:53

Yeah, for sure.

39:55

And to really examine

39:58

what you imagine marriage is going

40:00

to do for you. What kind of hole is

40:03

it going to fill for you? What

40:05

kind of safety will it provide for

40:07

you that you don't already have. You

40:10

try to move very close, thinking

40:12

that that's going to provide all of that. I see you nodding,

40:15

so that resonates

40:18

and maybe dev got a little lost

40:20

in this. You had ideas

40:23

about I'm going to move in the house is going to look

40:25

like this, and you know this is what

40:27

it's going to be like. And he needed

40:29

more time, he needed more space, but couldn't

40:31

communicate that. One thing he did communicate

40:34

was I feel like I neglected my son, and

40:36

so he was probably trying to protect his son

40:38

a bit, but didn't know how to communicate that to you.

40:41

Right, So these are all questions that couple's

40:43

therapy could be really helpful for.

40:46

Where's our independence, where's our togetherness?

40:49

Where's our space? Where's our closeness?

40:52

Right?

40:53

You said that you've been texting since you've moved

40:55

out. What's

40:57

the current understanding of what's going on?

41:00

We haven't really asked any

41:02

hard questions. He's just

41:04

asked, how's your day today? What

41:06

did you do today?

41:08

So you're continuing the pattern of talking without

41:10

talking really, Yeah,

41:13

how does it feel to you where you've moved

41:16

out? It's such a dramatic move

41:18

and that you're texting back and forth without

41:21

addressing what's going on. Is that more comfortable

41:23

for you or less?

41:25

I actually didn't want to be really

41:27

talking right now. I'm just sort of giving

41:30

brief replies to his messages.

41:34

What do you want right now?

41:37

I think I want

41:39

to cut

41:42

my losses with him, move on.

41:44

I'm thinking I will want to

41:46

just have a kid on my own at

41:49

this point. I know I do want

41:51

a kid, it just hasn't worked out with

41:53

anyone. And I'm like,

41:56

I don't have much time.

41:58

It feels like a lot of decisions are out

42:00

of fear as

42:03

opposed to a sense of groundedness.

42:07

That's almost like rushing into the marriage where

42:10

maybe you haven't done enough research on

42:13

whether that is the right

42:16

decision for you. And I think that

42:18

what you end up doing is wasting a lot of time.

42:21

That is the thing that you're afraid of doing is wasting

42:23

time. But I think that you waste time by making impulsive

42:25

decisions because if you could slow down

42:28

a little bit, and here's the paradox, if

42:30

you could slow down a little bit, you'd

42:32

actually make better use of your time. So

42:36

if you had slowed down a little bit

42:38

with dev In the beginning. You'd

42:41

be more clear now

42:43

at thirty eight about

42:45

whether or not this was the right relationship for

42:47

you, or maybe you would have broken

42:50

up earlier and found a

42:52

different relationship that worked better for you.

42:55

But the rushing is what trips you up.

42:57

The rushing actually wasted your time.

43:00

Yeah, good point, And now.

43:02

The rushing again might waste your

43:05

time. The rushing to leave this

43:07

might be a waste of time because

43:11

you don't really know whether there's

43:14

something that could really

43:16

work here, which you could find out within

43:19

a few months. You'd get a sense of

43:21

what direction you were headed, and

43:25

that's not a huge

43:28

time cost. And you'd

43:30

also learn a lot about your patterns, so

43:33

that even if you decide that, okay,

43:35

we took six months and

43:38

I don't think this is going to work, you

43:41

don't want to do that with the next person.

43:43

Even if you have a kid on your own, you'll probably

43:45

still look for a partner, and

43:48

you don't want to do that, especially with a child.

43:52

Keep making these impulsive decisions.

43:55

Yeah right, The slowing

43:57

down actually prevents you from

43:59

wasting time.

44:00

I don't know how to do that.

44:02

You have to a identify

44:05

the reactive rush

44:08

impatience, and you

44:11

have to learn to tolerate it, because

44:13

you have to get a little bit

44:16

more comfortable with the discomfort of

44:18

not knowing. You keep saying I want to cut

44:20

my losses, I want to minimize how much I'm losing,

44:23

But the minimizing losses is not a strategy

44:26

for winning. You have to learn

44:28

to catch it and sit with

44:31

the discomfort of not knowing if this

44:33

is going to be the right decision, but knowing

44:36

that taking time to think things

44:38

through and to identify what seems like

44:40

the most reasonable course of action, that's

44:42

the thing that's going to allow you to make

44:45

more sound decisions.

44:47

The voice in the back of your head is going to be saying,

44:49

but hurry up, and you're going to have to learn to say,

44:53

I mean giving myself, say, three

44:55

months to explore this in therapy. I'm giving myself

44:57

this much time before I decide to stop

45:00

looking for in future fertilization. And

45:02

even once you do that, the voice in the back of

45:04

your head will be shouting at you to hurry up that it's dangerous.

45:07

Once you know the pattern, you can

45:09

identify it and try and neutralize that voice

45:11

as much as possible, But you

45:14

have to know that it's there, and that it's going to

45:16

keep trying to trip you up by rushing

45:19

and wasting time because of it.

45:21

That's really good. Yeah, my

45:23

therapist actually said that to me, that I make

45:26

impulsive decisions.

45:27

Speaking of things happening suddenly, you

45:29

said that your mom died of a heart

45:31

attack unexpectedly. Can

45:34

you talk a little bit about what that was

45:37

like for you and what has been

45:39

like for you since, and how

45:41

much you've shared of that

45:43

pain with dev Yeah.

45:46

It was awful. It's been so hard.

45:48

We were so close, so it was really I

45:51

miss her a lot. She was a wonderful person,

45:55

just an awesome, wonderful

45:57

grandma. And yeah, and mom and

45:59

friends. We had just a really

46:01

fun, warm relationship.

46:04

We're very much alike too, of

46:06

all my siblings.

46:09

And the other part that Lloyd's question was about

46:11

how much of this you shared with Devin. I

46:14

don't mean in a single conversation, because grief

46:16

is something that's ongoing and that needs to be talked

46:18

about in an ongoing way.

46:19

Yeah. I did when we were dating, shared

46:22

a lot about her and how

46:25

much I missed her, and I remember we would talk

46:27

on zoom and I would be crying

46:29

talking about her.

46:30

How would he react.

46:31

He was very warm and sympathetic and

46:34

sweet and just would let

46:36

me cry it out, and it

46:38

felt very therapeutic to talk to

46:40

him about it. Actually, he was able to come to her

46:42

memorial service, which

46:45

was like six months after her death, so

46:49

he was really nurturing and there for

46:51

me in that time. And

46:54

then like after we got married, I

46:56

remember crying about her, thinking

46:59

about her, and telling him more about her,

47:01

and it was a little bit different.

47:04

I don't know. I got a feeling like that he

47:06

was not comfortable

47:08

with it. I don't really know.

47:11

Why, but you didn't ask.

47:14

No. That's

47:16

been kind of my achilles heel. I think

47:18

in a lot of relationships, I want to accommodate

47:20

the other person and I want them

47:22

to feel comfortable. But I've

47:25

had a hard time kind of speaking

47:27

out about my needs. I

47:30

think I had communicated in our

47:32

therapy sessions. He did know that

47:34

that was a need of mine, like

47:36

emotional closeness and intimacy.

47:38

Did he know how to give that to you in

47:41

a way that you

47:43

were looking for somewhat?

47:46

I would ask, Hey, it's Wednesday, can we do

47:48

our date night? And he'd be like, well, it

47:50

depends. We might have his son

47:52

that night, and he wouldn't want to do it if we did

47:55

have his son there, and

47:57

then rescheduling it was hard and

47:59

a lot of times it just wouldn't

48:01

end up happening.

48:03

Did you get angry at some point and go stop pushing

48:05

me off? This is important?

48:06

Yeah, that one I did. I said, Hey, I'm going

48:08

to set a timer right now for five minutes, and

48:10

it was good to talk about it, and it was a little bit

48:13

longer.

48:14

So when you insist, when you follow up,

48:16

when you really have agency and empowerment,

48:18

you're like, oh, no, this is happening. It happens.

48:21

Yeah.

48:22

What's notable to me is that he

48:24

engaged in the conversation with you and

48:26

it felt good afterward.

48:28

Yeah.

48:29

I have a feeling that you

48:31

would learn in couple's therapy

48:33

if you stayed in it with him and

48:36

he stayed in it with you, how

48:40

the two of you could have more of those kinds of conversations

48:43

when you're actually able to talk

48:45

about things. He seems

48:48

open to

48:50

change, And

48:53

I think that willingness is so

48:55

important in a marriage. Are you willing

48:57

to meet your partner somewhere

49:00

that makes sense for both of you, that feels good for both

49:02

of you.

49:04

And also he doesn't do subtle. In other

49:06

words, if you're hinting, implying, you

49:09

know, even requesting softly, it's

49:12

probably not going to land. But when you're

49:14

being super clear, then

49:17

he is it.

49:18

I definitely hear you. It's hard.

49:20

What makes it so hard for you?

49:23

I think being a middle child

49:26

with a lot of sisters,

49:29

it was like the squeaky wheel

49:32

gets the oil kind of thing,

49:34

and I didn't want to be a squeaky wheel because

49:37

there were just so many other needs.

49:39

As a kid. What you learn is that my

49:41

needs are less important because there are people

49:43

who have louder voices speaking wheels

49:46

than mine, and so I,

49:48

you know, contact them my parents, and

49:50

there's only so many resources. So I'm gonna

49:53

sit this one out exactly.

49:55

Yeah, that's kind of how I grew up.

49:58

And you're finding that that doesn't work very well

50:00

in a marriage, right.

50:02

Yeah.

50:08

So, Emily, we have some advice for you, and

50:11

we think that you have to make a really

50:13

thought through decision

50:17

and we want you to choose between two options

50:19

that we see that you have. The first

50:22

option is that you decide that

50:24

you know what, I'm going to give this

50:27

marriage one last chance. I'm

50:29

willing to give it six months in couple's

50:31

therapy to do

50:34

several things. First of all,

50:36

to practice speaking

50:39

up, voicing my needs, voicing

50:42

my feelings, really learning

50:44

to be much more open and

50:46

much more communicative yourself in

50:49

this relationship, because that is a lesson

50:51

that will work for you in other relationships.

50:55

But if you decide to take this option, what you

50:57

need to do is talk to dev and

51:00

I need to say to him thev

51:03

First of all, I want to apologize for

51:05

how I left. I texted

51:08

you. I didn't coordinate that with you.

51:10

I didn't discuss it with you. I didn't plan

51:12

it with you, and I really should have.

51:16

But I did what I tend to do,

51:19

which is to rush because I want

51:21

this so much that I think

51:23

I rushed in to the relationship.

51:26

We both did, and now I rushed out

51:28

of it. And I think both of those

51:31

were mistakes in some way,

51:33

because there are a lot of

51:35

things you and I didn't discuss before

51:38

we got together. We didn't discuss what

51:40

it would be like for me to move from where

51:42

I am to go to a new place. We didn't

51:44

discuss what it would be like for me to live with a

51:47

teenager for the first time. We

51:49

didn't discuss how you would feel about somebody

51:51

moving into your home and how you would make space

51:54

for them. We didn't discuss the fact that he

51:56

felt that you were ignoring your son

51:58

too much and not paying him enough at ten during

52:00

our courtship, and therefore, how

52:02

is it going to work when I'm there? What

52:05

accommodations we have to

52:07

make. There's so much we didn't

52:09

discuss, And when I think about

52:11

how you feel about certain things, I have so

52:13

many questions because I don't know, because

52:16

we didn't have those conversations,

52:18

and I think we really really need

52:21

to have them. And I have to say

52:23

that there are times when I've been really

52:26

clear in terms of what I needed

52:28

from you, and you delivered in

52:30

those occasions when I was really really clear,

52:32

and it felt really good to me that

52:35

you did.

52:37

And these are the steps that couples

52:40

usually take on the

52:42

road to getting married. They

52:44

have these conversations. And for you two,

52:47

all those conversations that you had on zoom or

52:49

on the phone, there are certain

52:51

things that you might have shared that felt very intimate,

52:54

but it's very different from being face

52:57

to face with another person on

52:59

a daily basis, and

53:01

so it's almost like you have to go back and

53:03

do the things that you didn't

53:05

do in the right order. You don't want to

53:08

waste time, and we don't want you to waste time. So

53:11

what I think waste your time is dilly dilling?

53:14

Is am I in this? Am I not in this?

53:16

How long should I hang on? Should

53:18

I stay at my friends and just keep texting him?

53:21

That's a complete waste of time. We want you

53:23

to either say to depth, I'm really sorry

53:26

for how I left. We didn't take

53:28

the steps in the right order. I

53:30

feel like there's a lot of potential

53:33

here, but only if

53:35

we go to couple's therapy and

53:37

we go every week for six months, and

53:39

I understand that some weeks you'll be out, but I

53:41

don't want to miss two weeks in a row. So

53:44

if you're away, we can zoom so we don't

53:46

miss two weeks in a row, and

53:49

that we both really open

53:51

up to understanding each other, to

53:54

saying the things that we're afraid to say about

53:56

how we feel about ourselves and each

53:58

other. Everything's out on the

54:00

table and we can make a really good decision.

54:03

Because dev I don't want to waste time.

54:05

The other option that you're considering is

54:07

just to kind of cutbake minimize

54:11

your losses, which is the strategy you typically

54:13

use and think of maybe just

54:15

go and having a kid by yourself.

54:18

And we're concerned that that option is

54:20

also replicating the pattern

54:22

from the post of rushing into things

54:25

before you know enough. So

54:27

if you decide I don't want to investe

54:30

more time in this marriage because I don't think

54:32

it's going to go somewhere, and I don't want to spend six

54:34

months doing that, and we

54:36

think you should also not rush into

54:39

having a kid right now. I think that you

54:41

need to use the same amount of time to

54:44

really work on you, to really

54:46

figure out this pattern and where

54:48

it comes from and how you change

54:50

it going forward.

54:52

So either way, you're not wasting

54:55

time. You're using these six months

54:57

to set yourself up so that you don't end

54:59

up wasting time in ways

55:02

that don't serve you because of impulsive

55:04

decisions. So if

55:07

you decide I don't want to ask Dev

55:09

to go to couple's therapy with me for

55:11

six months, we'd like you to

55:13

go into individual therapy and tackle

55:16

these issues that we've addressed head on

55:18

about this pattern that you have the impulsivity,

55:21

the avoidance, the

55:24

sense of I'm going to grab onto this because it feels

55:26

safe, and this place of operating

55:28

out of fear.

55:30

And the middle child dynamic of let me

55:32

not voice my needs and my feelings

55:34

and make too many demands because you

55:36

know, my parents have squeaky wheels to take care

55:38

of, and not just be disappointed.

55:41

Yeah, we would like you to spend

55:43

the six months thinking about what

55:45

would be the best next step for me. Would

55:48

it be having a child on my own? Would

55:51

it be freezing my eggs?

55:53

Would it be dating in

55:55

a different way and

55:58

considering that I might not have a biological

56:00

child, but I might have a child

56:02

a different way. What are those

56:04

options? What does it look like

56:07

to have a child on my own financially,

56:10

logistically, emotionally,

56:13

all of the things that, again weren't

56:15

discussed going into your marriage you

56:17

would need to discuss in therapy going

56:20

into this parenthood situation

56:23

so that you're not thinking about it after the fact.

56:25

What would it be like for me? Is this

56:27

the life that I want? Would

56:30

I regret not spending those six months

56:33

seeing what is possible in my marriage

56:36

given that there's so much that I really do love

56:38

about him, but neither of us is

56:40

skilled at communicating, and neither

56:43

of us knows how to talk about the important

56:45

things yet.

56:46

But can we learn, Maybe I can

56:48

develop these skill sets that I can take with me

56:50

to another relationship if this one doesn't.

56:53

The other thing we would like you to do is that, if you do

56:55

decide that you want to invest six months to learn

56:57

more about who you are to each other in the marriage,

57:01

that you together

57:04

find one hour to

57:06

do what sort of a modified date

57:09

night. Date nights can feel like

57:11

a lot of pressure. People feel like we

57:13

have to be intimate. It has to be a grand gesture.

57:15

It has to feel like it felt when we

57:17

were in that honeymoon phase. And

57:20

what we would like is just for you to

57:22

do something that you both find

57:25

fun and you only have an hour. It

57:27

has to end after an hour. So

57:30

maybe you like to take walks, maybe

57:32

you like to listen to music,

57:35

cook together, but it can only take an hour,

57:38

so it can't be a big deal, and

57:40

it doesn't have to feel romantic or

57:42

anything like that. It just has to feel like, wow,

57:45

we have so much fun when we do this. Let's go take

57:47

an hour and do that and don't

57:49

feel like you have to enjoy it in the way that

57:51

you enjoyed it back when you were

57:54

in that honeymoon phase. Just be

57:56

there in the moment. We don't want you to spend

57:58

a lot of time planning because because I think that

58:00

that tends to feel very stressful to dev

58:03

Yeah, but we also don't want him to

58:05

feel controlled, where it's like, here's what we're

58:07

doing. The assignment should be, let's

58:09

take ten minutes. We're going to

58:11

set a timer and we're just going to throw

58:14

out things that sound fun to us, and

58:16

by the end of the ten minutes, we're going to decide on one.

58:18

It's going to be super fast, and we're

58:20

going to spend one hour doing it, and we're going to pick

58:22

the date that we're going to do it this week. And

58:25

if you decide that you are invested

58:27

in this for the six months, you need to

58:29

make the couple's therapy appointment this week

58:32

before you report back to us. Okay,

58:35

all right, and we want you to make that decision

58:37

in the next twenty four hours.

58:38

Twenty four hours.

58:39

Yeah, you have twenty four hours to decide which route

58:42

you're going.

58:42

Okay.

58:43

The reason that we want it in twenty four hours is

58:45

because we think that, even with this information

58:47

and processing it, that you're

58:49

going to steal dilly dolly because that's what you do.

58:52

And then you're going to make an impulsive decision. And

58:54

we want to say either way you're going

58:56

to spend it is oh.

58:58

My gosh, oh are you guys my

59:00

whole life.

59:01

Well, that's why we're trying to not waste your time. So

59:04

right now you have twenty four hours. By

59:06

tomorrow evening you are going to

59:08

get on a zoom with Dev and have

59:11

one of two conversations with him.

59:13

So how does that sound to you?

59:15

Yeah? I like that. That's good.

59:17

All right, So we very much look

59:19

forward to hearing from you.

59:21

Emily. Thank you guys so much.

59:23

I appreciate this.

59:25

You're very welcome. It

59:33

was just interesting to see how in their

59:35

relationship so much

59:37

of what normally would

59:39

happen leading up to a decision to

59:41

spend a life together didn't

59:44

happen because she

59:46

was in such a rush and he was in such a rush

59:48

for whatever reason, and they both.

59:50

Don't have good skill sets in that regard,

59:52

so it wasn't a comfortable, easy thing

59:54

for them to do.

59:55

Yeah, but when you think about what happened,

59:58

her mom died, she's

1:00:00

moving somewhere new, he has a teenage

1:00:02

son. They're not used to having a third person.

1:00:05

There and then can sit.

1:00:07

And that was right six months into

1:00:09

their marriage. So

1:00:11

one of the things that people think about

1:00:13

therapy is that you're not supposed to tell somebody

1:00:16

whether to stay with somebody or whether to go.

1:00:18

We can't make those decisions for people. But I

1:00:20

think what we're asking her to do is to really

1:00:23

look at here are these two ways

1:00:25

that the next six months could play out.

1:00:28

What do you think would help you grow

1:00:30

the most, given that

1:00:33

you're just discovering that you have this pattern

1:00:35

that you haven't spent a lot of time with it. Maybe

1:00:37

you were vaguely aware of it, but it really

1:00:39

seemed to hit her in the session. Wow, I never

1:00:41

really thought of it that way.

1:00:43

And that's why we gave these two

1:00:45

options that both of which

1:00:48

are a six month hiatus

1:00:50

from rushing into something out

1:00:53

of something, because she can't rush

1:00:55

in either direction. So I think it's really important

1:00:57

that we put the speed bumps in all way.

1:01:00

Yes, yes, the speed bumps in order

1:01:02

to help her to get more clear and

1:01:05

really reinforcing that paradox

1:01:07

of sometimes you need to slow down in

1:01:10

order to move faster in the direction

1:01:12

you want to go.

1:01:13

Absolutely you

1:01:18

listening to deo therapists. We'll be back

1:01:20

after a short break. So

1:01:35

we heard back from Emily, and I'm really

1:01:37

interested to see what happened and which

1:01:39

option she chose.

1:01:41

Hi, Lauri and Guy, thank you

1:01:43

so much for talking with me last

1:01:45

week. I wanted to give you an update

1:01:47

on your advice. So

1:01:50

I met with Dev and I

1:01:52

did apologize for how I left

1:01:55

and decided to ask him if

1:01:57

he would be open to doing therapy

1:02:00

every week for six months. I

1:02:02

really liked Lorie's point about that

1:02:04

I could grow more and

1:02:06

doing therapy with him than I would doing

1:02:09

individual therapy. And

1:02:11

I also did really appreciate

1:02:13

Guy's point about trying to break my pattern

1:02:16

of dilly dallying. So I

1:02:18

did decide to ask him that and

1:02:20

he agreed to that idea. So

1:02:23

he is going to be traveling a lot this

1:02:25

spring, but he did commit to doing

1:02:28

weekly therapy and if he

1:02:30

has to miss a week, then we'll do zoom therapy.

1:02:33

And we did go back and forth on some ideas

1:02:36

of a one hour date we could

1:02:38

do together. At first, he

1:02:40

actually threw out the idea of doing pickleball,

1:02:43

which I thought was a really cute idea. We

1:02:45

had a snowstorm coming in the next day, so

1:02:47

we ended up deciding to just make dinner

1:02:49

together. But we do want to play pickleball

1:02:51

together at some point, and I thought that was

1:02:54

just really fun and kind of a creative idea

1:02:56

on his part. Making dinner together

1:02:59

was really nice. He was being

1:03:01

really sweet and affectionate with me, which

1:03:04

I really appreciated. It

1:03:07

felt really good. It felt like he is making

1:03:09

it clear to me that he does want this to work.

1:03:12

It was really nice to spend that time with him.

1:03:14

He kind of like cuddled next

1:03:16

to me on the couch a little bit, and

1:03:19

it was good. It did feel

1:03:21

maybe a little bit confusing, too, because

1:03:24

he hasn't done that in so long, and I

1:03:26

don't know if we were just in a rut as

1:03:29

a married couple living together. But I do think

1:03:31

it's definitely been beneficial that I'm

1:03:33

out of the house right now. I

1:03:35

do feel nervous a little bit about

1:03:37

how I will feel in six months,

1:03:40

but I'm trying to keep in mind that the goal

1:03:42

of this time is to

1:03:45

ask questions that we should have asked

1:03:47

before we were married, and so I

1:03:49

don't have to decide now how I will feel

1:03:51

in six months, and I can decide one way

1:03:53

or the other if my questions are not

1:03:55

being answered satisfactorily.

1:03:58

But I really, I really appreciate

1:04:01

the time you guys spent with me and the insights you

1:04:03

had. I just can't

1:04:05

thank you enough. I did want to know your

1:04:07

thoughts on how do I know when I

1:04:09

am dillydallying? So thanks

1:04:12

a lot.

1:04:17

So it sounds like this week Emily really

1:04:19

stopped the dilly dilling and she

1:04:22

did make a choice between

1:04:24

the two options that we had suggested,

1:04:26

and she chose option one, And

1:04:29

it sounds like dev was very

1:04:31

receptive to trying

1:04:34

that option with her. Things

1:04:36

changed very very quickly

1:04:40

in terms of going from he wants

1:04:42

me six inches away on the couch

1:04:44

to he kind of snuggled up with me on

1:04:46

the couch. He agreed. It

1:04:49

sounds like immediately to do

1:04:51

the six months of couple's therapy and if he's out

1:04:53

of town, to do it on zoom. So it

1:04:56

sounds like once she communicated

1:04:58

in a different way, he

1:05:01

decided he was going to respond in kind.

1:05:04

I agree that was encouraging. I

1:05:07

just don't know if that's a behavior he's going

1:05:09

to continue once they're actually physically

1:05:11

back together in the same house again,

1:05:13

because again, they did really well

1:05:16

when they were long distance. It's the in person stuff

1:05:18

that didn't work. And now they're not long distance,

1:05:20

but she's not living there, So that's something

1:05:23

that I'm a little concerned about. And

1:05:25

I'm also concerned that she will take a foot

1:05:27

of the pedal too soon. In other words, if this

1:05:30

continues for a little bit, you'll go Okay, things are

1:05:32

fine without doing full

1:05:34

six months of vetting.

1:05:37

Yes. I like that she

1:05:40

realizes, though, that there are a lot of questions

1:05:42

that she needs answered that should have

1:05:44

been answered before she got into a marriage.

1:05:47

And so if she can keep her eye

1:05:50

on the prize there and wait the six

1:05:52

months, if they both do the therapy weekly,

1:05:55

they'll learn a lot about each other, and they'll

1:05:57

learn a lot about themselves individually

1:06:00

well. And I hope that they keep

1:06:02

up this sixty minute date again.

1:06:05

It can be really low key. I think a lot of couples think we

1:06:07

need to do something really romantic, and we

1:06:09

don't have time, and it's stressful. Just

1:06:11

that idea of let's play pickleball for an hour

1:06:13

or let's just cook together. Those

1:06:16

are the kinds of things that people need to

1:06:18

just connect with each other in

1:06:21

a way that's not about the disagreements, which

1:06:23

doesn't mean they're avoiding them. It just means this

1:06:25

is not the time, and we have

1:06:27

a different time, which is called couples therapy,

1:06:29

where we do talk about those things.

1:06:32

I often say to my couples patients,

1:06:34

like, guys, don't forget date night

1:06:36

can be about romance, but it can also

1:06:38

be about fun and should be, and

1:06:41

they should remember that fun is just as

1:06:43

important as romance. And

1:06:46

she asked this question about how would she know if

1:06:48

she's kind of falling into those patterns again,

1:06:50

And so I hear it when she says, oh, I'm

1:06:52

worried about how I'm going to feel in six months

1:06:54

time. There's the pattern because you're not focused

1:06:57

on how you feel right now, on what's

1:06:59

going on right now now. You don't know how

1:07:01

you're going to feel in six months time. But when you're

1:07:03

asking yourself that you're not paying attention to

1:07:05

how you're feeling right now, that's something

1:07:08

you really emily have to watch out

1:07:10

for that you're really asking yourself what's

1:07:12

going on in the present and doing that rather

1:07:14

than anticipating how I might feel and what

1:07:16

do I do if I feel that way six months from now.

1:07:19

I like too that she added to the email that

1:07:21

she had forgotten to leave in the voicemail that they already

1:07:24

made the couple's therapy appointment. So

1:07:26

I feel like they're really on

1:07:28

that track. It's not just let's talk about it

1:07:30

or we've agreed to do this, but we actually

1:07:33

have an appointment. And I hope that they

1:07:35

say to the therapist in the first session,

1:07:38

we're here because we want to take six months

1:07:40

to get to know each other and

1:07:43

this relationship better, to

1:07:45

see how we feel. We rushed into

1:07:47

this, and we want to see where we are in six

1:07:49

months and make some decisions. And

1:07:51

I think that's going to be really helpful for the

1:07:53

therapist to know.

1:07:55

And another consideration is that the in

1:07:57

crisis right now because she moved out, and

1:07:59

people are much more flexible and willing

1:08:02

to do stuff when they're in crisis, but that will

1:08:04

die down soon, and that's when they really

1:08:06

have to be mindful and intentional of

1:08:09

continuing all of these efforts even

1:08:11

if the crisis is behind them.

1:08:15

Next week, a man who met his current

1:08:18

partner because they shared the same ex wonders

1:08:20

if they're past will doom the relationship.

1:08:23

Seems almost too

1:08:25

good to be true, like am I missing

1:08:28

a key thing? Or is there something wrong

1:08:30

with me and something wrong with my current partner

1:08:33

that attracted us both to

1:08:35

the X? Or is there something that he saw in

1:08:37

both of us that's gonna like drop

1:08:39

at some point.

1:08:40

If you're enjoying our podcast, don't forget

1:08:43

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If you have a dilemma you'd like to discuss with

1:08:57

us, email Us at Lori

1:08:59

and Guy at iHeartMedia dot

1:09:01

com. Our executive producer

1:09:04

is Noel Brown. We're produced and edited

1:09:06

by Josh Fisher, additional editing

1:09:08

support by Zachary Fisher and Katie

1:09:11

Matty. Our intern is Anna

1:09:13

Doherty and special thanks to our podcast

1:09:15

fairy Godmother Katie Couric. We

1:09:18

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1:09:21

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1:09:28

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