0:03

I'm Laurie Gottlieb. I'm the author of

0:05

Maybe You Should Talk to Someone, and I write

0:08

the Dear Therapists advice column for the Atlantic.

0:10

And I'm Guy Wench. I'm the author of

0:13

Emotional First Aid, and I write the Dear

0:15

Guy advice column for Ted. And

0:17

this is Dear Therapists.

0:19

Each week we invite you into a real session

0:21

where we help people confront the problems in their

0:24

lives and then give them actionable advice

0:26

and have them report back to let us know what happened

0:29

when they did what we suggested.

0:30

So sit back and welcome to

0:32

today's session. This

0:35

week, a woman whose family disowned

0:37

her after she refused to loan her father a

0:40

huge amount of money, mands how to

0:42

grieve the loss and how to trust again.

0:44

That evening, my dad call me. I

0:46

thought he wanted to apologize, but

0:49

then it was all about I'm

0:51

not your dad anymore, You're not my daughter anymore.

0:53

We're just strangers now. You mean nothing

0:55

to me.

0:56

First, a quick note, Dear Therapist is for informational

0:59

purposes only. It does not constitute

1:01

medical or psychological advice and is not a substitute

1:03

for professional healthcare advice. Diagnosis or

1:05

treatment. By submitting a letter, you are agreeing

1:07

to let iHeartMedia use it in part or in full,

1:10

and we may edit it for length and clarity. In

1:12

the session you'll hear. All names have been changed for the privacy

1:14

of our guests.

1:19

Hi Guy, Hi Laurie. What

1:22

do we have in our mailbooks today?

1:24

Today we have a letter about

1:27

a disagreement around finances

1:29

with a parent, and here's how it goes.

1:32

Dear Therapists, About a year and

1:34

a half ago, crazy things happened between

1:37

me and my dad. His business

1:39

was not doing well and he wanted to get a loan

1:41

for himself by using my name. It

1:43

was an amount that I felt like I would never be able

1:46

to repay in my lifetime. When I

1:48

said no, my dad shouted to me

1:50

on the phone that I was quote no longer

1:52

his daughter. I always considered my dad

1:54

a role model and did everything I could to meet

1:57

his expectations and get his praises.

1:59

It was shocking and heartbreaking to go through

2:01

that experience. After a disturbing

2:04

incident, I became scared of him and moved

2:06

to a new city across the country. Since

2:09

then, I have not spoken to anyone in my

2:11

family, my mom, my grandma,

2:13

my siblings, my cousins, etc. They

2:16

all think that I was acting selfishly by not

2:18

helping my dad, even after I described

2:20

what had happened. However, as

2:22

time goes by, I have this urge

2:25

of reconnecting with my dad and the rest of my family.

2:27

I am extremely conflicted because I don't

2:30

think reconnecting will end well for me, but

2:32

I can't help but feel lonely and crave

2:34

the family connection. What should I

2:36

do, Vanessa?

2:39

I feel really badly full, Vanessa,

2:42

that is an incredible amount of loss

2:45

to sustain. If she lost her dad, her

2:47

mom, grandparents, siblings, cousins, everyone,

2:49

she lost her entire family. What

2:52

perplexes me is how

2:54

this came about so shockingly

2:56

and suddenly, this massive

2:59

change in behavior on the father

3:01

spot, when there was apparently no indication

3:04

of these kinds of tendencies previously.

3:07

So I'm just curious about whether they were

3:09

and she wasn't seeing them, and if

3:11

not, well, what was actually going on

3:13

with him? And why is all her family

3:15

taking the father's side. There must be more to

3:18

that story too, so there's a lot

3:20

of missing pieces for me on this.

3:22

I'm also curious why she was the one

3:24

that the family depended on to make

3:26

this loan. But I'm guessing that this dynamic that's

3:28

going on now probably has some history

3:31

to it. So let's go talk to her and

3:33

find out. You're

3:37

listening to Dear Therapists for my Heart Radio.

3:39

We'll be back after a short break. I'm

3:49

Laurie Gottlieb.

3:50

And I'm Guy Wench, and this is Dear

3:52

Therapists. So,

3:55

Hi Vanessa, welcome to the show.

3:57

Hi Vanessa, Hi, thank you so much

3:59

for your time.

4:01

Of course, so we wanted to start

4:03

by learning a little bit about you. How

4:05

old you are, what you do

4:08

for a living, if you're living

4:10

with anybody, or you're living by yourself.

4:12

So I am in

4:15

my late twenties and

4:17

I work as an analyst,

4:21

and I lived by myself.

4:22

So in your letter you talked about this incident

4:25

with your father. Can you take us

4:27

through from the beginning what

4:30

happened.

4:31

So during COVID we

4:33

were all in lockdown mode. I was by myself,

4:36

and now I was really worried about my parents

4:39

and my grandparents' health and all that.

4:41

So I moved back to be closer to my

4:43

parents. I'm the oldest

4:45

child I have siblings and

4:48

growing up, my parents'

4:50

marriage wasn't perfect

4:53

at all. We did witness like

4:55

domestic violence from my dad to my mom.

4:58

But my dad has never lay up finger

5:00

on any of us. Maybe in

5:02

an immigrant family where

5:05

I'm coming from, is very normal

5:08

in that way. So I was actually

5:11

proud.

5:12

What make you proud of him?

5:13

Because he had never lay

5:16

a finger on us. I remember telling

5:18

my friends when was

5:20

in elementary school, Oh,

5:23

I have this amazing that my dad never

5:25

bid me like it was because we

5:27

were all very concerned about our test

5:30

results. And

5:32

then I was like, my parents will never

5:34

do that to me because I got an

5:36

ask exam.

5:38

In other words, what was normal in

5:40

your world was that if you didn't perform

5:43

academically that there

5:45

would be some kind of physical punishment.

5:48

Yeah, my cousins all experienced

5:50

that, So I was like, oh my god, my dad

5:53

is always It's so amazing.

5:54

But you said growing up it was normal that

5:57

if you didn't do well, you might get

6:00

by a parent. Was it also normal

6:02

for domestic violence to happen

6:05

between the parents, such

6:07

that the fact that there was domestic violence

6:09

in your home didn't register as

6:11

problematic.

6:13

I think the interpretation of the domestic

6:15

violence was very different. One

6:18

was growing up. Right now, I

6:20

understand just any formal violence is

6:22

violence, But then one was growing up. I

6:24

always thought, oh, if my dad just say

6:27

something really mean to my mom, or

6:29

throw a cup on the floor,

6:32

or like hit my mom with a pillow,

6:35

that's nothing because she's technically not wounded.

6:38

So my mom would always come

6:41

to me when this happens.

6:43

Whether it's three am, it really

6:46

did not matter to her what time it was.

6:48

For me, there would be some domestic

6:50

violence and your mom would call

6:53

you.

6:53

She would show up in front of my door.

6:55

Oh, she would come to be with you.

6:57

Yeah.

6:57

So in the fall I

7:00

had a really big fight, and

7:02

then my mom came to me as three

7:04

am, knocking on my door,

7:07

and she promised,

7:09

and she wouldn't answer my dad's call for like two

7:11

weeks, and we promised

7:14

that, oh, we should figure this out.

7:16

If you want to leave, you should, like why

7:18

would you want to get yourself hurt? And

7:21

she wouldn't answer my dad's call for like two

7:23

weeks, and suddenly she picked up one call

7:25

from my dad without me knowing,

7:27

and they're back together. And

7:30

to this day, I don't know what happened during

7:32

that call.

7:33

What had he done to her that made

7:35

her come over to you, and that you

7:37

felt like she has got to leave.

7:40

He was very violent to

7:42

the point that my mom thought she

7:44

would die.

7:46

And did she have bruises on her?

7:48

Yes?

7:49

Were you alarmed by that or

7:51

was that not a surprise for you?

7:54

I was alarmed because, to

7:56

be honest, that was my first time actually

7:58

seeing evidence from

8:00

the violence, because I

8:03

know this happened, but I never

8:06

really understand the

8:09

severity. And

8:11

the thing is, I'm

8:14

partially at fault at this because growing

8:16

up, my mom would always call me

8:19

when any small inconvenience happens

8:21

to her. But really she was just trying

8:23

to dump it all out on me and

8:26

she never tried to change anything. Like

8:28

since high school. I was in boarding school, so I was

8:30

never home much. But

8:33

I feel like my mom was like the guy

8:35

who cries wealth every single time.

8:37

So it was my first time actually seeing

8:40

the physical result.

8:42

Because you were away, you didn't

8:44

realize how severe it actually was.

8:47

Yeah, because my mom sometimes like exaggeratings,

8:50

so I never know whether it's

8:53

true or not. And that's something she criticized

8:55

about me a lot because she

8:58

always thinks that I take a lot of things

9:00

too seriously. So then

9:02

she would call me and be like, oh my

9:04

god, something extremely awful

9:06

happened. I'm gonna die. And now

9:08

I would get extremely serious on the phone with

9:11

her. I was like, you should go to the doctor, and

9:13

how can you allow that happen? And then

9:15

at the end of the call, she was like, oh my god, you're

9:17

taking things too seriously, or

9:20

like, oh, it's not a big deal. Oh, nothing happened.

9:24

So for almost

9:26

thirty years in my life, that's what happened.

9:29

And so then like when

9:31

I first saw that, I was shocked. So I stopped

9:33

taking my dad like

9:36

calls and messages as well, because I want

9:38

my dad to admit that he's wrong,

9:41

like make amend or like find

9:43

a solution, whether it's divorced

9:46

or not.

9:46

Vanessa, you said, well, that was my fault that

9:49

I didn't take my mom seriously, and

9:51

then you explain, well, because she

9:53

kept minimizing it and not changing

9:55

it. Why do you feel then that

9:58

it's your fault.

9:59

Because if, especially as the first child,

10:02

I did not stand up and pointed

10:04

out openly in

10:07

my family.

10:09

Is that the role of the first child in your

10:11

culture that if you see something between your

10:13

parents, the first child has to stand up

10:15

and point it out and put

10:18

it on the table.

10:19

No where did you get the idea

10:21

that this was your role, that you

10:24

are responsible for what happens

10:26

between your parents.

10:28

After the incident, I w knew a therapist

10:30

as well. There was this reflection

10:33

that came to my mind. It's like growing

10:36

up. Even though I was away while my

10:38

siblings were at home, they

10:42

always say I'm the oldest, so I

10:44

should come and handle

10:47

the family issue.

10:48

Who says that.

10:51

My relatives? So there were two instants

10:54

in the time frame the

10:56

one year I was home when the first

10:58

instead happened. My mother's

11:01

older sister and her daughter

11:04

who is older than me. They just suddenly show

11:07

up in front of my door really

11:10

late as well, and then they look

11:12

extremely serious and they were just like, are you gonna

11:14

take care of your mom? I

11:16

didn't even know my parents had

11:19

an argument. I had no idea

11:21

what happened?

11:22

Did you ask?

11:23

Yes?

11:23

I was like, come down, what happened? And

11:26

they were just like, oh, your mom is walking

11:29

over to your apartment

11:31

right now? And I

11:33

was like, walking, are you serious? My

11:36

aunt was like, oh, your mom called me with a stranger's

11:39

phone an hour ago, saying that she's

11:41

on the way to your place, and

11:44

she and your dad had an argument, and now she

11:46

just left the house without car, without

11:48

wallet, without her phone, And

11:51

I was like, what happened? And she said she doesn't

11:53

know. But then she's just like, why aren't

11:55

you acting your part?

11:57

What did your aunt say she wanted you to do?

12:00

She wants me to make sure that my dad doesn't

12:02

hit her anymore.

12:05

How are you supposed to do that?

12:07

I don't know. The

12:09

weirdest part is that, well,

12:12

when my mom got here, why to

12:14

ask her are you okay? Like I heard you

12:16

walked? How long did it take you? And

12:18

she's like, oh, she doesn't know. But

12:21

after my aunt and cousin left,

12:23

my mom admitted to me that

12:27

she did not walk. She actually

12:29

took a cab. I was like,

12:31

why didn't you tell like aunt and

12:34

like my cousin about it. They're so angry

12:36

about the fact that my dad, what

12:39

did you leave without money or

12:41

a car or anything? And then

12:43

she was like, there's no need to let them

12:45

know.

12:45

So this is the kind of thing that made you feel like it's

12:47

hard to know. With my mom the crying wolf,

12:49

it's difficult to know where reality

12:52

lies.

12:53

Yes, I don't know what she want

12:56

from me.

12:57

So it's very confusing because it's hard to know

12:59

what's really what's not real. And yet

13:01

you blame yourself for not

13:04

taking her seriously at

13:07

the times when she did report things to you without

13:10

acknowledging that partly,

13:12

it was hard to know how seriously

13:15

to take her because she would either minimize

13:17

it or she wasn't telling the whole

13:19

truth.

13:20

Sometimes I always get a sense

13:22

that she tells parts

13:25

of the story to different people.

13:28

I find out it hard to really

13:31

piece stories together for her

13:34

to really identify the action of items I

13:36

need to do.

13:38

We're both saying that we understand that there was some

13:41

dramatic license and her stories, and therefore

13:43

it was hard for you to know what to do with

13:45

them. But let's see about the second incident and then what happened

13:48

with your dad.

13:50

Yeah, after the second incident, my mom was

13:52

staying with me at that time, and then

13:55

she was not talking to my dad at all. I

13:58

would occasionally speak

14:00

to my dad on the phone. I wanted to be bridge

14:03

that ament the gap

14:06

between them. And

14:08

then suddenly, all of blue, like they

14:10

got back so nicely together,

14:13

and my mom stopped answering my calls.

14:15

My mom moved out when I was not home, back

14:18

to my parents' house, and I

14:21

just could not speak

14:23

to her alone ever since. And then about

14:25

a week after my mom moved out, my dad

14:27

suddenly came to visit me in my

14:29

apartment and said, I'm so sorry

14:31

for what I did to your mom this

14:34

time and over the years, and

14:36

I'm so sorry for all

14:39

the mistakes that I might have done.

14:42

When you said you were trying to mediate

14:45

between your mom and your dad, did

14:47

you tell your dad how

14:50

disturbed and terrified you were

14:53

to see your mom show up in bruises?

14:57

Yes, And what was his response

14:59

to that? Did he acknowledge that he had

15:01

a problem.

15:03

He said, it was an incident, and my mom

15:06

like try to fight back as well, and he

15:08

was hurt as well.

15:10

Well.

15:10

Of course she tried to fight back because

15:12

she's defending herself. But

15:16

how did that land with you that

15:19

he said, well, it was an incident, and then your

15:21

mom shows up with all these

15:23

bruises.

15:25

I thought he was not taking

15:27

things seriously. So I actually took my mom

15:30

to a hospital to get all of her bruises

15:32

like recorded, just

15:34

in case like she needed in the future.

15:36

I actually was encouraged them

15:38

to get a divorce vocally.

15:41

But when you spoke to your dad and you said, Dad,

15:44

I'm horrified by how you hurt

15:46

mom, And he said, well, it was

15:48

just an incident. Did you have anything else

15:50

that you wanted from him, like I

15:52

need you to get help. Did you talk

15:55

to him about that?

15:56

Yeah, I asked him, like why

15:59

he is played? I not doing in the future

16:01

to avoid this kind of thing happened, And

16:04

I even asking if it's necessary

16:06

for my mom to move out of the house and move

16:08

in with me for however

16:10

long it will take for him to

16:14

recover from his violence.

16:17

I thought if

16:19

I just separated them, then the issue would

16:22

not happen anymore.

16:24

So somehow you thought that instead of this being his responsibility,

16:27

that this was your responsibility, Like

16:30

if I separate them, I can

16:32

solve this, as opposed to he

16:34

needs to take responsibility and go get help.

16:37

I think growing up, I always thought it was my responsibility

16:40

to fix anything in my.

16:41

Family, because that was the

16:43

message that you got from.

16:46

Everyone, my parents, my relatives,

16:49

especially my grandparents. My

16:51

grandma on her dying

16:54

bed, called me when was in college

16:57

because my parents got into an argument.

17:01

So the idea was that you're the eldest.

17:03

Your job is to mediate between your

17:05

parents, to keep the family peace, to

17:08

be the guardian of the family,

17:10

to solve the problems or come up with the solutions.

17:13

You took on very seriously the

17:15

role of rescuer there. How

17:18

much were you thinking at

17:20

the time about your

17:23

own feelings, your own needs, the expectations,

17:26

the responsibility, the actual violence

17:28

that was going on. How much were

17:30

you of variable in your

17:32

own equation for what

17:34

your duties are.

17:36

To be honest, I was glad that

17:39

I was there. I was so

17:41

relieved that, like when the two

17:43

incidents happened, I was physically

17:45

there in the same city so my mom could escape

17:48

to my place.

17:50

It felt good to you to fulfill your duty

17:52

in a way. What I'm asking you, though, is

17:55

your duty as defined by

17:57

your family is to the family primarily,

18:00

and I'm asking about your duty to

18:02

yourself as well as a member of the family

18:05

for your own emotional well being. That

18:07

was a factor in any of the thinking

18:09

that went on around it.

18:13

It wasn't at the moment that it

18:15

is now. I'm

18:17

still trying to understand why no

18:20

one from my relatives, or my parents,

18:22

or my grandparents never went to my siblings

18:25

for anything, And of course they always

18:27

have the reasoning like you're the oldest, you

18:29

should be mature enough. But

18:31

one was growing up, one

18:34

was twelve. They would come to me, and

18:37

one was away in high school. They

18:39

were come to me. So

18:41

I start to believe

18:44

that it was my responsibility

18:46

as well, just because I was the

18:48

oldest. But now

18:50

I don't think it's true

18:53

at all. And a lot of their actions

18:55

were extremely disrespectful

18:58

of me as an ind right.

19:01

So your dad comes over, he's buttering

19:03

you up. Where did that conversation go?

19:06

I was crying in front of him because

19:09

I was so touched.

19:11

So you thought it was genuine, yes, I

19:13

was like.

19:13

Oh my god, you're back to the father

19:16

I knew you were. Of course, you

19:18

realize you're wrong. Anyone can

19:21

see like domestic violences wrong.

19:23

I'm so happy that you recognize this, so

19:26

it's not gonna happen anymore. And

19:29

I was just so touched. And my dad was even

19:31

asking, oh, am I a good dad

19:33

for you? And I was like, yeah, of course you're the

19:35

best.

19:40

Now I just feel stupid

19:43

because what happened. Yeah, So

19:46

within twelve hours, his assistant

19:49

called me. He was like, can

19:51

you go to this place your

19:53

dad is signed? No, can you go? Like

19:55

your dad wants to meet you there? I was like

19:57

yeah, of course, Like why

19:59

wouldn't I go meet with my dad

20:02

at any place?

20:03

Well, especially this reformed, idealized

20:06

version of him, now that he reformed

20:09

the night before, now that he had

20:12

a moment where he acknowledges and took responsibility

20:14

and connected, so it

20:17

was even more enticing to go and meet this version

20:19

of him.

20:21

Tell us what happened when you go

20:23

to meet him.

20:24

So I went to the bank and I

20:26

saw my dad, and

20:29

he was of course all nice like the

20:31

night before. He was like, oh, how's

20:33

your day, like all that kind of good stuff.

20:35

And then suddenly he was like, hey, I just need

20:37

your signature very quick. That

20:40

was like for what we're at a bank,

20:43

I don't know, maybe something good. I was expecting

20:46

something good to happen. He suddenly has like a

20:48

million of dollars and decided to transfer me

20:50

some, but no, he wanted me to sign a

20:52

loan. That was first of all,

20:54

I would never be able to take it out if I just

20:56

go to the bank myself. So

21:00

he arranged something with the bank so I was

21:02

able to get that amount

21:05

of loan under my name,

21:08

and I felt like I would never be able to repay

21:10

it myself, so I was very hesitant.

21:12

I said, let me think about it, and

21:15

I just went home. He was like, yeah,

21:17

think about it. It's not a big deal. I'll pay you

21:19

back. Because I was getting money

21:21

for him for his business.

21:24

Need just to be clear

21:26

for our listeners. So the expectation was,

21:28

sign a loan in your name, get

21:31

the money from the bank, give me all the

21:33

money from the bank, and then I will pay

21:35

you back so that you can repay the loan.

21:38

Yes, and you like, that's not alone I would

21:40

have gotten. I don't have enough connateral or

21:42

savings to get that kind of loan, so that

21:44

puts me in significant jeopardy.

21:46

Yes, it's interesting because when

21:48

you first got there, you thought the reason he

21:50

wanted you to sign something was maybe he was going

21:52

to give something to you. You thought maybe

21:55

something really nice has just happened.

21:58

Yeah, because of the night before, he was so

22:00

nice. He was like, you're my favorite

22:02

kid. Even it was like, you're

22:04

like fixing the relationship between me

22:07

and your mom. You're doing such an amazing

22:09

job.

22:10

So he really went all out the night before to

22:12

really kind of lay.

22:14

The groundwork, and finally I feel

22:16

like I was being acknowledged for the first

22:18

time by someone, and especially

22:20

that someone is the person I idolized

22:22

for my whole life.

22:24

Even waiting your whole life for somebody

22:26

to acknowledge all of the sacrifices

22:28

that you had made on behalf of the family.

22:31

And he was finally seeing you and appreciating

22:33

that and acknowledging that, had it been genuine,

22:36

that must have felt so good.

22:39

I didn't know I need that acknowledgment

22:41

until he set it, and I was completely

22:44

broken down in tears, of

22:46

course, happy tears, and extremely

22:49

relief. I had never felt

22:51

that relief in my lifetime.

22:53

So then you go home and you start reflecting

22:56

on the request, and you must

22:58

have connected what happened night before with

23:00

the request that came the next morning,

23:03

and so it must have taken

23:06

you from this extream high to

23:09

a pretty low.

23:12

I would imagine tell us what you were thinking and

23:14

feeling that when you got home and you were starting

23:16

to think through what was going on.

23:19

I was just surprised and shocked.

23:22

When I look at the number on

23:24

that book, like

23:27

it feels like it was a book when you

23:29

sign alone. So then I was like,

23:31

let me take the paperback. I does some research

23:33

myself, ask my friends who knows more

23:35

about finance than I do, and then they were

23:38

just like, don't sign it. You're basically putting

23:40

your life out there if your dad doesn't

23:43

pay this money back, like your

23:45

stock for life. They

23:47

even said you might go to jail if you can pay

23:49

the low and I was freaking out because

23:52

I don't want to go into jail for

23:55

something I did not do, and

23:57

especially the

24:00

money is not going to me, and

24:03

I have no idea how my dad

24:05

would repay this, so I asked my dad for

24:07

a payment plan, and

24:11

all of this information just seemed so vague

24:14

and just not stable enough

24:17

for my risk tolerance level.

24:20

It dragged for a week and my dad's friend,

24:23

this uncle figure in my life, he knocked

24:25

on my door too, and he was like, hey, I

24:27

heard you have a small disagreement

24:29

that's happening between you and your dad. And

24:32

you know, your dad loves you so much,

24:35

really cares about you. You are everything to hey,

24:38

and he is struggling trying

24:41

to communicate with you. So

24:43

I'm here just to listen, you know, like an uncle,

24:46

Do you want to get coffee downstairs? And

24:48

I was like sure, like I know him since

24:50

I was a kid. So we

24:52

went to the closest cafe that's like five

24:54

minutes away from my apartment, and

24:58

we went to like a really back of

25:00

the cafe and I was

25:03

facing back of

25:05

the door. I

25:07

thought it was a one on one meeting. But

25:10

my dad show up, my dad's assistant show

25:12

up, people from the bank show up, and

25:14

the whole conversation suddenly elevated. My

25:17

dad tried to hit me with like

25:20

a cup.

25:21

Wait, so they show up, they circle

25:23

you, they're trying to pressure you. Obviously, how

25:26

did it get from that to your dad trying to hit

25:28

you with a cup.

25:30

I was in the conversation of trying

25:32

to explain to this uncle figure

25:34

in my life, this is

25:36

a big loan. I have to really think about it. I don't

25:39

think I can repay and I have to be ready

25:41

to repay it back if something happened

25:43

to my dad's finance and

25:46

he was like, Oh, don't worry about it. Why are you worried about

25:48

it? You're in good hands, it's your dad.

25:50

Why would he not

25:53

take care of you do anything that's harmful

25:55

to you. And then the bank

25:58

people showed up with the paper and

26:00

be like, hey, you should trust us. Your dad

26:02

negotiated really well. I don't know

26:04

when those people arrived because

26:08

I was facing back.

26:09

You were also very much quote by surprise

26:12

and in shock, and so it's

26:14

very difficult sometimes to remember a sequence

26:17

of events when you were in chock, because it

26:19

was this one shock after another after

26:21

another after another after another. People just kept

26:23

showing up, so you didn't have time to process anything,

26:25

and it was very overwhelming.

26:27

It was, and I

26:29

have no idea how long people were in the back

26:32

lurking like listening to my conversation.

26:35

I don't know if they arrived at the same

26:38

time or they arrived

26:40

in the sequence that I saw them.

26:43

But they had everything ready. It was a plan,

26:45

a bush.

26:46

It was an ambush. It was absolutely

26:48

an ambush.

26:49

I know.

26:49

And then my dad showed up and said,

26:52

why aren't you so worry about this? I

26:55

explained to him, I said to you

26:57

so many times, I don't think I can repay this

26:59

myself, so I don't think I

27:02

can be capable of owning

27:04

up to this responsibility. And

27:08

he was like, why are we making such a big deal.

27:10

I can definitely pay it back. Don't worry. You're

27:13

being so just

27:15

cowardly about this.

27:18

This is so interesting because

27:21

you have this with both of your parents that

27:24

they tell you these big things, like

27:26

your mom says, your dad was violent with

27:28

me, and then she minimizes it, and

27:30

so you don't know what to believe. And then

27:33

your dad says, here's this

27:35

huge amount of money that I need

27:37

this loan for and you say that doesn't

27:40

sound right, and then he says, oh, no, no,

27:42

no, don't worry about it. So

27:44

it's very hard to trust

27:47

the people that you should be able

27:49

to trust. The

27:51

people that you want to trust, your parents, but

27:53

they give you so many mixed messages and

27:56

it's so confusing and.

27:58

Actually never thought about this way. You

28:00

know what this reminds me of growing

28:03

up. My parents

28:06

always told me not to trust anyone, including

28:08

them, including them. They

28:11

said, not to trust anyone in this

28:13

world except for yourself. My dad

28:15

would say not even your mom, and my mom would

28:17

say, not even your dad.

28:19

That's quite the statement. That statement

28:22

usually goes with accept your family. But

28:24

you kind of dismissed it when

28:26

you were told them because you did trust them.

28:28

Yeah, whoever they tell me this kind

28:31

of advice. I always dismissed it

28:33

because I always feel like they have

28:35

such a negative outlook

28:37

on life, and I don't think

28:39

that's healthy. And I feel

28:42

like relationship should be built by trust.

28:45

And going back to the incident,

28:48

when my dad was trying to just

28:50

get away with his so called

28:53

plans to pay me back,

28:55

I just really did not think

28:58

that was logical, and he started

29:00

to just go against

29:03

with everything he told me. When he was

29:05

trying to make amend with

29:07

me, he was like, you're such a disappointment.

29:10

Why can't you do this one thing for

29:12

me that I'm asking you literally

29:15

don't need to do anything. You just sign your name

29:17

and I'll pay the money back for you. And

29:20

I said, no, that I'm going to go into jail for

29:22

this if you can't pay me back, because I

29:24

don't think I can pay

29:27

it back. So you trusted

29:29

yourself at that point. Yes,

29:31

I was trying to stay calm, but deeply

29:33

inside I know I was extremely shaky

29:36

and emotional.

29:38

This reminds me of the way that

29:41

he would treat your mom. You

29:43

said she didn't want to talk with you after

29:45

she went back to your dad because

29:48

I think she had so much shame around that. I

29:50

think that she knew that because

29:53

now you knew the extent of what was

29:55

going on, that you would

29:57

try to bring that up and talk to her about

29:59

it and get her to leave and get her

30:01

to be safe. And she, for

30:05

whatever reasons is, was

30:07

not willing to do that. And

30:10

so here your father is

30:13

doing to you what he would do to your

30:15

mom, which is trying

30:18

to intimidate you into

30:21

doing something that you

30:24

need to do to protect yourself. Your

30:26

mom couldn't protect herself, but you were

30:28

trying to protect yourself, and you were very clear

30:30

about protecting yourself, even if you were shaky

30:33

inside. And

30:36

that's where the violence comes in, where

30:38

someone tries to protect themselves from him

30:40

and then he just can't

30:43

handle that.

30:44

Yes, he was wearing a leather

30:46

jacket. I remember it as because

30:50

he took it off and try to

30:52

throw the jacket at my.

30:53

Direction in front of all those people.

30:56

Yes, I

30:58

avoided it, but I

31:00

think there was like a metal

31:03

button or something. I felt it on my

31:05

shoulder and I was in shocked because

31:08

growing up, my dad never laid a finger

31:11

on me, and I was so proud of it, and

31:14

at that moment, I just have like a

31:17

cognitive dissonance or something else. Is

31:19

this a dream that I just

31:21

need to wake up from? And

31:25

he was trying to throw a cup at me, and I

31:27

was like, I'm gonna leave, and he

31:29

sheltered at me in front of everyone. This

31:32

sentence said, I don't think I'll ever forget in

31:34

my life. He said,

31:37

if I could have taken your life back, I would,

31:40

But the way he put it, he was like, if I

31:42

could have taken your life back, because

31:45

he gave me the life,

31:48

he would have done that.

31:52

It raised you from the book.

31:53

Even right now when I talk about it, my heart is

31:55

racing.

31:57

Vanessa. I don't know if you realize how

32:00

much strength and

32:02

courage you

32:04

have to be able to walk

32:06

away from

32:08

that kind of pre

32:11

planned manipulation,

32:13

harassment, bullying. You

32:16

have all these people surrounding you

32:18

telling you to do something, pressuring

32:20

you, yelling at you, and just reassuring

32:23

it will be fine. You know we love you. It is so

32:26

so difficult not

32:29

to just fine fine.

32:31

I'll just hope for the best. But I can't take it. It's

32:34

impressive to me that

32:36

you were able to, despite all that pressure,

32:39

realize I'm in danger here. In

32:41

many different kinds of ways, and

32:44

I have to leave, and to leave

32:46

with those kind of stakes on the

32:48

table, knowing that that might

32:51

cost you in other ways. Dearly, you

32:54

did the right thing for you, and I

32:56

don't know if you appreciate how brave

32:59

that is.

33:00

Thank you. This

33:04

is my second time telling this story, and

33:07

I'm very proud that I did not become

33:10

mass and cry so much because last

33:12

time it took me among

33:15

scene survey session to really piece

33:17

this whole thing together.

33:19

Why would it be a problem if you cried? Guy

33:22

was saying how brave this was and

33:25

how much courage that took, because

33:28

it was really devastating what happened

33:30

to you. And you're saying,

33:32

I'm glad that I didn't cry when I was telling you

33:34

about this, But it's such a sad story,

33:38

and you must feel so

33:41

sad, and

33:43

so how does that serve you not

33:45

to cry when something is truly sad?

33:49

To be honest, like, after that instance, I

33:52

went back to my apartment and

33:55

I feel like I must be lying not on my bad

33:57

for hours

34:00

and just crying because

34:02

I thought I lost my dad, and I

34:04

think I lost a dad that I

34:06

thought I had for the whole time, and

34:09

that evening, my dad called me. I

34:12

thought he wanted to apologize for

34:14

what happened, but then

34:17

it was all about pushing me to sign

34:19

that loan. And then in that conversation

34:23

he hanged out the call with this

34:25

sentence saying his

34:28

tone was extremely harsh.

34:30

He was like, I'm not your dad anymore. You're not

34:32

my daughter anymore. We're just strangers. Now.

34:34

Don't ever call me or let me see

34:36

you. In my sight, just disappear

34:39

from this world. You mean nothing to me. And

34:43

I just remember after that call he hung

34:46

up and I just curl

34:49

into a ball and start to cry for I

34:51

don't even know how long, because

34:55

that was the moment I felt like, oh my god,

34:57

I lost him in my life.

35:01

And then like his group

35:03

of people would just start to randomly

35:06

knock it on my door in

35:09

my apartment building, randomly

35:12

calling me to talk about

35:14

this, try to push me into signing,

35:17

and I was like, no, I don't want to do that. And

35:21

during this whole time, my dad did not show

35:23

up say a word, but

35:25

I know it was him behind all this. So

35:29

I got really scared because people

35:31

would show up in front of my apartment

35:33

and I moved it to a different apartment

35:36

but still in the same city, so

35:38

they try to track me down. My

35:41

dad would track to my friend and

35:44

ask them where I am, because my friend would

35:46

tell me, hey, your dad called me, and

35:50

I just became extremely insecure.

35:53

I had a panic attack in public. I

35:56

was in like a foot court by myself

35:58

and I couldn't breathe, and I start crying

36:01

like crazy, and I

36:03

was like, Okay, I need to leave. So I

36:05

packed up and

36:08

moved across

36:11

the country

36:13

and now no one knows where I am. But

36:16

I still get nightmares

36:20

and extremely already that someone

36:23

just show up in my apartment

36:25

door again.

36:27

Have you tried to explain to your

36:29

mom, who, of all people would probably

36:31

understand the bullying that

36:34

your dad does. Have you tried

36:36

to explain to her what actually

36:38

happened? And what about your aunt,

36:40

your cousins, or your siblings.

36:43

I try to spoke to my mom once because

36:45

I was going back to my parents' house to

36:47

pack up a few things while was trying to move.

36:50

And was your dad home when you went there?

36:52

No. I pick a time that I knew

36:54

he wasn't going to be home, and

36:57

I ran into my grandma and my and

37:02

they were just like, why are you so selfish?

37:04

Why aren't you not helping your dad with his

37:06

money needs? You know, you're a part of the family.

37:09

And I was like, do you know what happened? And

37:12

they were just like, yeah, of course your dad

37:14

told us everything. You refused

37:16

to help him.

37:17

But did you tell your side of the story.

37:20

I said that he

37:23

was not nice to me and he was even

37:25

try to be violent with me in public,

37:28

and they dismissed it immediately. For

37:31

my siblings, I've been in contact

37:33

with them once and they

37:36

did not agree with what I did. But

37:38

in my opinion, I think

37:41

they are not in a

37:43

good financial place either. They're still

37:45

relatively dependent to my

37:47

dad financially.

37:50

So your father helps financially

37:53

with those siblings, yes,

37:56

and they live at home.

37:58

But I so you said that this is the second

38:00

time you're telling this story. It was in the therapy

38:02

you did immediately after and now and

38:06

I'm curious about friends. You

38:09

have friends that don't

38:11

know this story. Why

38:13

not share with your friends what

38:17

you went through and what you're going through because

38:19

this is so severe and it's so

38:22

difficult, and why

38:25

not share that with any friends

38:28

to get some support.

38:33

Because after

38:35

this happened, I was googling like a

38:37

maniac, trying to understand if

38:40

this ever happened to anyone else. But

38:43

I did not come across a story

38:45

that's similar to mine, and

38:48

I don't want to be the emotional burden

38:50

for my friends. The issue I go

38:53

to them with are like normal problems,

38:55

like, for example, oh, you're sick,

38:57

not feeling well.

38:58

But if ever any one needed support

39:01

from friends, it's when their entire

39:04

family turns against

39:06

them. I can tell you I know several places

39:08

like this. It's not that rare, But

39:10

you do not want to burden

39:13

your friends at the

39:15

time of your greatest need. Why

39:18

didn't this qualify as an unusually

39:21

extreme event that requires

39:24

that friends be there for you, that

39:27

someone be there for you.

39:29

The main reason I don't want to burther them, and the other

39:31

reason is that I

39:34

don't know what kind of emotion I should

39:36

be experienced, to be honest,

39:38

because I'm literally

39:40

going through an emotional roller coaster

39:43

and I'm trying to understand it on

39:46

a daily basis.

39:49

Still, I'm thinking about the parallel

39:51

between the way that

39:55

you're not telling anyone about this and

39:58

the way that your

40:00

mom didn't want to talk to you after

40:03

you knew the extent

40:05

of what was really happening to her and the

40:07

shame that she felt. I

40:10

think that you feel the same amount of shame, even

40:12

though you feel

40:15

confident that you made

40:17

a decision to protect yourself,

40:21

that your family gave you so many messages

40:23

of your bad You're selfish,

40:26

You're not deserving of being my daughter,

40:29

what's wrong with you? They think that

40:32

some of that shame has been internalized

40:34

by you, that

40:38

that also prevents you from telling

40:40

people that somehow they might

40:42

judge you or think that you were

40:45

not generous enough. And

40:48

also the shame of having a family

40:50

like that, just the shame

40:53

of having a father who

40:55

would disown you for

40:57

not putting yourself at risk.

41:01

Yes, I agree with you. The

41:03

hardest part for me, Oh,

41:06

my friends know how amazing my

41:09

dad is. That's the problem. Like

41:13

some of my friend's parents thought I grew up

41:15

with a single parent, because

41:17

all I talked about was how amazing my dad

41:19

was.

41:20

What are the things he did that were amazing other

41:22

than not hitting you.

41:24

My dad never checked my homework

41:26

because he trusted me. There

41:30

was one time I remember I was

41:32

really little. I put my backpack

41:35

to my parents and I said, Hey,

41:37

do you want to look into what I have in my backpack,

41:40

because that's what a lot of parents

41:42

did to my friends. Because

41:47

that was like not trusting then,

41:50

and so I asked my parents

41:52

to do that for me. I was like, hey, check

41:55

what I have in my backpack and then

41:57

they was like, oh, no, no need.

42:00

But again something they didn't do, not

42:02

something they did do.

42:03

Yes, Now I think about it,

42:05

a lot of things I praised my dad for was

42:07

more like he gave me the

42:10

independence to do something, or

42:13

I did all this by

42:16

myself because he trusted me.

42:19

The shame, I think, is one thing that really stops

42:21

you. I think the other thing that stops

42:23

you from talking to friends is

42:26

that when everyone who's supposed

42:28

to care about you is telling you

42:30

how wrong you are, how

42:32

disloyal and selfish you are for

42:34

not doing that, it really

42:36

makes you distrust your own judgment

42:39

and your own sense of what's real. You're like,

42:42

no, I'm risking my future, and

42:44

they're saying, no, it's such a small procedural thing.

42:46

Why are you making a fuss? And I think that

42:48

you had so much of that pressure from

42:51

practically everyone

42:53

that you don't trust, that you're not

42:55

making a fuss. That you don't trust

42:57

that your judgment was sound.

43:00

You're questioning whether, well, maybe I'm

43:02

the selfish daughter who should

43:04

have done it. And even if you're not questioning

43:06

it, you're worried that somebody else, like

43:08

a friend, might join

43:11

that chorus of people telling you how wrong

43:14

you are and how much you failed your parents,

43:16

rather than vice versa. And

43:19

that's the value of talking

43:22

with friends and presenting them with your side

43:24

of the story, because the fact that it

43:26

would be shocking to them that

43:29

this hero turned out to

43:31

do this It is exactly the point,

43:33

because that's how shocking it was for you and

43:36

still is.

43:37

I just don't know, Like, if I cannot

43:40

connect the dots together in the

43:42

story, then how can anyone else

43:44

do it?

43:45

I think you do connect the dots, and

43:48

I think that's the part that's so hard, is

43:50

that it's hard to accept that that's

43:52

where the dots lead. It's very

43:54

hard to accept that this

43:57

did really happen in this way,

44:01

and then I am left feeling

44:03

very alone, feeling very misunderstood,

44:07

feeling abandoned by my family. So

44:10

you can connect the dots, it's very painful

44:13

to connect them.

44:17

I'm wondering. You said you moved across the country,

44:21

so your friends are back where

44:24

your family lives. Is that right? Your friends

44:26

growing up?

44:27

I have some friends like the childhood

44:29

friend.

44:30

What about other friends, like your friends

44:32

from boarding school or your friends

44:34

from where you live now? Do

44:38

they know at least that you're not in contact with your family

44:40

or they don't know anything?

44:42

They don't know anything.

44:43

It's very hard to make

44:47

friends when you're hiding

44:50

such a big secret about

44:52

yourself. Even without going

44:54

into the details of the incident, the

44:57

fact that you don't have

44:59

content with your family is

45:02

such a big omission. What

45:05

are you worried will happen if they learn

45:07

that you're not in contact with your family,

45:12

that your family basically disowned

45:14

you for not signing alone,

45:17

that you didn't feel comfortable with.

45:20

I don't know, because even

45:22

when they talk about their parents, I try

45:24

to change the

45:26

topic. Sometime they ask me how

45:28

my parents are doing. I was like, oh, they're good, Vanessa,

45:31

You're already so alone.

45:34

And the way that you get close to people

45:37

is by opening up to

45:40

their experience and letting them open

45:42

up to yours. So

45:44

when you change the topic, they

45:46

may interpret that is she doesn't want

45:48

to get that close with me, and that leaves

45:51

you even lonelier when you could have

45:53

all of these very meaningful

45:57

connections that you so desperate.

46:00

We need right now. I

46:04

know I think I'm craving family relationship.

46:06

The most right, but your instinct

46:09

to maybe I need to reconnect with

46:11

them is the instinct to

46:13

do what Yomanda did, to

46:16

snap her fingers and go didn't happen. We're

46:18

going to pretend that nothing ever happened. And

46:22

the only problem is that you

46:25

might want to pretend that nothing ever happened,

46:28

but they will not because they're

46:30

still angry.

46:32

And guys, right, that's what your mom did every

46:35

time she would go back. There are terms

46:37

to going back, and the terms are you

46:40

do what we demand and

46:43

you pretend nothing happened, and

46:45

your family won't pretend nothing happened until

46:47

they get you to sign that.

46:49

I totally agree with

46:52

what you just said, and I'm amazed how you

46:54

can just see it within like

46:57

the amount of time we've been talking. But

47:02

it took me so

47:04

long to realize that. To be honest,

47:07

I was just in shocked, disbelieve I'm

47:11

grieving that I've lost my family.

47:13

Yes, you're grieving alone,

47:16

and that's it's the problem.

47:17

And you don't need to be grieving alone.

47:20

I know, like grieving is not only when

47:22

people are dying. But

47:24

my parents are still there, you

47:27

know, if I want to find them.

47:29

No, if you want to sign away that

47:31

kind of money, then they're there.

47:34

And now I'm more afraid of trusting. I

47:39

don't even share where

47:41

I live with people because

47:44

I have this nymer that they're going to find me

47:46

and then push me to do this, to

47:49

sign the law or something even more horrible.

47:51

I just have this constant nymer that

47:53

I would wake up and then suddenly I'm back

47:55

in a dark room with my dad interrogating

47:57

me and then put

48:00

me to sign a you know those like dramatic crazy

48:03

things. And I have a security camera in

48:05

my apartment.

48:06

Now, let's talk about what

48:08

you imagine would happen in reality if

48:11

your family found out where you are, so

48:14

maybe they would keep trying to push you to

48:16

sign the papers which you don't want to do. Is

48:20

there something more you said and even worse, that

48:22

your father would be violent with you. Is that

48:25

part of it?

48:27

So you concerned for your safety? Literally?

48:28

Still yes, because

48:32

I saw my mom and

48:35

I think money really changes people, and

48:38

what my dad was my dad. To my experience,

48:41

he was nice, but then when this

48:43

whole thing get involved, I just feel like he

48:45

became a different person and was

48:47

so money driven and

48:50

he could do anything. He sent people

48:52

to knock on my door, non stuff.

48:54

That's the reason why I move in the first place.

48:57

People would text me randomly

48:59

and be like, Hey, I'm gonna hunt you down where you live,

49:02

and that's why I had to move across the

49:04

country.

49:06

You've lived in this new location for over a

49:08

year now, is that right?

49:09

Yes?

49:10

Okay? And so your friends that you have in the

49:12

city that you're in do

49:15

not know where you live.

49:18

They know the area, but they don't know where

49:20

I live exactly.

49:21

Are there any of those friends who arenew that

49:24

your parents don't know of or

49:26

don't know how to get in touch with it, because then.

49:28

You, yeah, my parents

49:30

wouldn't know who they are with your

49:32

existing friends that do know your parents,

49:36

if they did know the story and they did know

49:38

that you fear for your safety. Do you think that

49:40

you could trust them not to tell your parents

49:43

where you are.

49:47

I trust them not to tell my parents where I

49:49

live. But I think because they

49:51

really care about me, they would want to

49:54

fix my relationship between me and

49:56

my dad. So they might reach

49:58

out to my.

49:59

Dad against your wishes.

50:02

Yeah, because they would think they're doing

50:04

the right thing for me like I did for my

50:07

mom.

50:08

You might not need to trust them with

50:11

your location, but

50:13

are any of those people close enough

50:16

you can trust them with the story?

50:19

I think there would be war

50:21

two.

50:22

Okay.

50:23

I keep thinking about you googling trying to find

50:25

a story like yours,

50:29

and there are so many of them. You

50:32

might not have seen people post about them, but

50:34

there are so many stories like this.

50:38

Am I the crazy one?

50:39

That's what I was going to ask, is what was the

50:42

real question you were asking by doing

50:44

this search? That's the question

50:46

that I think you're asking, is am I the crazy

50:49

one? And I think that that's so

50:51

important because your parents, in

50:53

a weird way, warned you don't

50:55

trust us, and so you

50:59

don't know who you can trust. And what's

51:01

so courageous, as guy said, and we want you to

51:03

hold onto this is

51:05

the fact that you trust in

51:07

every fiber of your being and

51:10

every cell in your body. You

51:12

know how much danger

51:14

you would put yourself in if you signed

51:16

those papers, that

51:19

that would affect you for the

51:21

rest of your life.

51:23

We want you to keep trusting

51:26

that place in yourself where you can find

51:28

yourself, because that's where you

51:30

truly are. And instead

51:32

of googling to say did this happen to other people?

51:35

Because I need to find out if I'm crazy, we want

51:37

you to trust the part of you that knows that you are

51:39

not crazy, that what your family has done

51:42

that is what has been done to you, not

51:45

something that you have done to them. They

51:47

have acted in ways that have made you scared for

51:49

your very livelihood in

51:52

the literal sense and also in the financial

51:54

sense. And now the question

51:57

is are you going to sit with all this by yourself

52:00

or are you going to do the kind of grieving

52:03

that you need to do. Are you going to find

52:05

the surrogate family that you can

52:07

trust? But

52:09

you're going to need to trust yourself in

52:12

order to take the steps to do that.

52:14

And Vanessa, the surrogate family that Lauri

52:17

mentioned, which is so so

52:19

important, doesn't

52:22

get constructed in a day. It

52:25

is a process. You do

52:27

a layer at a time and

52:30

check and verify a

52:32

layer at a time. Because

52:35

you've been terrorized, essentially,

52:40

and you're terrified.

52:44

Even if you're not in touch with that all the time, you

52:46

have monitors in your home. You're afraid

52:48

to tell anyone where you live. That's witness

52:50

relocation stuff.

52:52

You have dreams about this.

52:55

You're traumatized, and you're terrorized, and

52:58

you need, though to start

53:00

working on that surrogate family,

53:03

one step, small step

53:06

at a time. You know, through processing, you know

53:08

through grieving, by a long shot,

53:11

there's work to be done to

53:14

recover and to rehabilitate

53:17

your life.

53:18

Am I too slow in the process?

53:20

At first I thought I was over it, and

53:23

then the holiday season came around.

53:26

Vanessa, you just went off

53:28

into blaming yourself for something, like something's

53:30

wrong with you. How did you take

53:32

in what Guy said about creating

53:35

this surrogate family,

53:37

about learning to trust people, but doing it in a

53:39

very cautious, careful way.

53:41

The idea of like surrogate

53:44

family was so new to me in

53:47

therapy. That was my first time doing therapy

53:49

too. After this incident, I

53:52

was like, Oh, I'm never going to have families anymore.

53:55

I lost my parents, my sibling, my relatives,

53:58

my grandparents

54:00

one and

54:03

the therapist told me that family

54:07

doesn't have to be blood related, they

54:10

can be chosen. But

54:15

in reality, I

54:19

have not been able to put that into practice

54:24

because I'm really scared. I

54:27

trust my friend still, but

54:29

I'm not telling them the story. But

54:32

what if she's doing the same thing to me?

54:35

What if the people you thought loved

54:37

you turn against you for

54:39

their unselfish reasons.

54:41

Yeah, I don't think I can take another one anymore.

54:44

That's why we're using the words slowly,

54:48

cautiously, step layer.

54:52

That's very important because of those

54:54

fears, which, given what you've been through, a

54:57

warranted.

54:58

You've never actually had a

55:00

family where you

55:02

could trust that they would

55:04

act lovingly toward you that

55:07

was not in a conditional way.

55:10

If I do the things that they

55:12

want, if I perform the way that they

55:14

want, if I make them proud, they

55:17

will treat me well. They won't

55:19

treat each other well, but they'll treat me well.

55:23

That's not family. So you grew up with a very

55:25

warped definition of family.

55:30

Yeah, I'm there to save them, but they're

55:32

not there to ask me how I'm feeling about

55:34

any of this. They're not there to take

55:36

care of me and see what it's like to be a

55:39

child who has to deal with domestic

55:41

violence and these kinds of calls

55:43

that are way above my ability

55:46

to deal with and not my responsibility.

55:49

So as you're forming a surrogate family,

55:52

you will start to learn

55:55

what the true definition of family is and

55:57

it does not have to be your blood relatives. What

56:00

does it mean to be family? And are these

56:02

people that I'm testing

56:04

the waters with people who are worthy

56:06

of being part of my family.

56:09

I just wanted someone to spend

56:11

holidays with. You know, I don't want

56:13

to be alone and.

56:15

Scared, Vanessa. We

56:17

think you want more than just someone

56:19

to spend holidays with.

56:21

Yeah, I want someone to care

56:24

about me, like you can talk about this

56:26

thing and anything

56:28

that I am having a hard

56:31

time with. But also I will

56:33

do the same thing for them, like, yes, I

56:35

wanted to await communication, Carrie.

56:39

And you've never had that in the way that you've needed

56:41

it. So,

56:46

Vanessa, we're really moved

56:49

by what has happened with

56:51

you and your family, and we

56:54

have several pieces of advice for you. The

56:57

first one is we were talking

56:59

about what it would mean to

57:02

create a family for yourself so

57:05

that you aren't alone. And

57:09

we're very aware that you

57:12

don't know how to trust right now

57:14

because you haven't been around people

57:17

who have taught you what trust looks like. So

57:20

we want you to take this very slowly, and

57:22

we want you to do one thing this week. We

57:24

would like you to ask one of your friends

57:27

who does not know your parents, to

57:29

coffee and in

57:32

the conversation when people

57:35

say how are you doing, how is your week, that

57:38

you answer honestly with just

57:40

a little bit of information and

57:43

you say, you know, actually, I'm having a

57:45

really hard week. And I

57:47

haven't told you this before because I don't

57:50

really talk about this yet. I'm just kind of coming

57:52

to terms with it myself. But

57:55

I am strange for my parents right now

57:58

because they ask me to do

58:01

something that would put me in financial jeopardy

58:04

for the long term and I couldn't agree

58:07

to that, and they have estranged

58:09

themselves from me, and

58:12

that's been really hard. That's

58:14

the only information that

58:17

you really need to say at this point. We

58:19

just want you to see what it's

58:22

like to tell somebody that to

58:24

be honest about what

58:26

you're actually experiencing, and

58:29

then to see how this person

58:31

responds to you. That's where the trust piece comes

58:34

in.

58:35

And what you want to look for in that

58:38

response is they

58:40

might be curious and say, oh, well it happened, tell me

58:42

more. You could say, I don't really want to get

58:44

into the details. This is still very raw for

58:47

me. But what would

58:49

be good, for example, is if at some point in

58:51

that conversation later on, they shared something

58:53

with you that they hadn't said before

58:56

that was a little emotionally vulnerable. Also,

58:58

because that's what you're doing, allowing

59:00

some emotional vulnerability, it would be

59:03

nice if they followed up the

59:05

next time you saw them, or with the text in between

59:07

saying hey, just thinking about you, how are you doing,

59:09

or the next time you saw them anything new

59:11

going on there. That sounded so difficult,

59:14

because that's what you would want from

59:16

a friend. And this is how you test

59:19

the waters. You allow some vulnerability with someone.

59:21

You hope that they do the same because that shows the trusting

59:24

you. And you do this very slowly, you

59:26

get to know them a little bit more and

59:28

vice versa.

59:30

And when you say I'm not really ready to share

59:32

more, you want to make sure that your

59:34

tone isn't such that they feel

59:37

like I can never talk about this again with her,

59:39

that you're not shutting the door. You're saying,

59:42

I really appreciate that, I know you're curious.

59:45

I'm just not ready. I will share

59:47

more when i'm ready, but thank you

59:49

so much for your concern.

59:53

They might say, is there anything I can do for you? Or

59:55

that sounds really hard? Or thank

59:58

you for telling me. For

1:00:00

empathy from them, you could just be one

1:00:02

statement because you're not really giving them a lot to go

1:00:04

on here, and.

1:00:05

It could be nonverbal. Do they look distressed and look

1:00:07

worried for you?

1:00:09

So those are the things to look for. And along those

1:00:11

lines, we have an exercise

1:00:13

that we would like you to do on your own, which

1:00:16

is we would like you to define

1:00:19

for yourself what family

1:00:21

should be. We want you to write

1:00:23

down a list of these are the qualities

1:00:26

that a person that I

1:00:28

would like to be in a family with

1:00:30

would have. And you're going to use

1:00:33

that as your barometer as you are

1:00:35

testing the waters with people. Does

1:00:37

this person meet my definition of family?

1:00:41

So you're taking these little, tiny steps

1:00:43

and every time you check back to this list,

1:00:46

does this person meet these qualifications?

1:00:49

And if not, oh, maybe I'm not going to really

1:00:51

invite them into my family. Oh but this person

1:00:53

does. Oh, that's a person I'm going to invite a little

1:00:55

bit more into my family.

1:00:58

And we'd like you to get very specific about

1:01:00

what does family mean?

1:01:03

How do they support, How

1:01:05

do they care? How did they show

1:01:07

their love for me? How

1:01:11

do they show up? How do they hold

1:01:13

my boundaries? We want

1:01:15

to know what it felt like for

1:01:17

you to make this list and

1:01:20

to see the gap between what a family should

1:01:22

be like and what your family has

1:01:24

been like.

1:01:25

A quick question, are you still in

1:01:27

therapy with that therapist?

1:01:29

Not anymore?

1:01:31

We would like you very much to find

1:01:34

a therapist, hopefully someone local,

1:01:36

because you have a lot of grief work to

1:01:38

do and you need to do that with

1:01:41

a therapist, and specifically,

1:01:43

you need to do a lot of revising

1:01:46

of your previous perceptions

1:01:49

of who your family is,

1:01:51

who your dad is, who your mom is,

1:01:54

because Laurie and I both think your dad didn't

1:01:57

change that much. It was always

1:01:59

condition But you were always so good.

1:02:01

Here you can check my bag. Don't have to wait for you to ask.

1:02:04

You were always so good. You never encountered the

1:02:06

one who's hitting your mum, the one who

1:02:09

can put you on the spot like that and

1:02:11

terrorize you like that. But he's

1:02:13

been that person all along.

1:02:15

So there's a lot of revising that has

1:02:17

to be done in terms of who they

1:02:19

are and what your history is

1:02:22

with them, really, and that's

1:02:24

the grief work, because it's very upsetting

1:02:26

to go back and revise and realize,

1:02:29

yes, I've lost the idealized version.

1:02:31

It never existed, but now I've lost even

1:02:33

who they actually are. I don't have because

1:02:36

this is something you can bring to the therapist,

1:02:38

and as a part of that, we'd like

1:02:40

you to write the story of

1:02:42

what happened to you from

1:02:44

your point of view, using

1:02:47

only what you know to be true, literally

1:02:49

your experience of what

1:02:52

this was like from the minute your dad shows

1:02:54

up at your door and tells you how amazing you are

1:02:57

and how great the relationship is and how much he

1:02:59

loves you till today fearing

1:03:02

for your safety from your own family because

1:03:04

you refuse to put yourself in financial jeopardy.

1:03:07

When you tell the story, it's still not sharp

1:03:10

enough from your point of view. You keep saying, he

1:03:12

asked me to sign something, which is completely not

1:03:14

the case. He asks you to take out the loan in

1:03:16

your name and give him the money. That

1:03:19

sounds very different than he asked me to sign something.

1:03:22

That's their rendition. It's just a signature no

1:03:25

take it alone in my name that I will never be able

1:03:27

to repay, and give you all that money

1:03:30

sounds much clearer in terms of what was happening.

1:03:32

We want you to write that story because

1:03:35

you need to have a very clear idea of the true

1:03:37

narrative after all the gaslighting

1:03:40

that went on, and

1:03:42

that you can bring to the therapy.

1:03:44

And part of that story and part of the grieving

1:03:46

is that you didn't really have the

1:03:48

opportunity to be the child that you were.

1:03:52

Your mom would call you with all of these very

1:03:54

adult issues that were happening, and

1:03:57

then she would alarm you and then

1:03:59

tell you not to be alone, which was very

1:04:01

confusing. And

1:04:03

this responsibility from all of your family

1:04:06

telling you that as the oldest child, that you

1:04:08

had to take care of everybody and solve all

1:04:10

the family's problems. You missed

1:04:12

out on a lot. We

1:04:15

want the accurate version of the story to be there

1:04:17

on paper as a starting point for the grief

1:04:20

work that you need to do. This does not mean

1:04:22

that your parents are all bad. This

1:04:24

means that your parents are deeply flawed,

1:04:28

and you need to be able to separate out

1:04:31

the fact that the ways in which they're

1:04:33

deeply flawed have affected

1:04:35

you to the point that you're

1:04:37

scared for your own life.

1:04:40

So how does this sound to you.

1:04:43

I feel like I'm just enlightened.

1:04:46

I thought that was well family

1:04:48

men, So

1:04:52

I'm really grateful for the

1:04:54

direction.

1:04:55

We think that this is the

1:04:58

starting point that will help you

1:05:00

get much more clarity on

1:05:03

how you eventually want to handle things

1:05:05

with your family. But until you have

1:05:07

more clarity and trust within yourself and

1:05:10

you have more support around you,

1:05:13

you won't get that clarity. And if you do

1:05:15

this work, you will have people

1:05:18

to spend the holidays with that you actually want

1:05:20

to spend the holidays with, who feel like family

1:05:22

to you.

1:05:23

So we really look forward

1:05:26

to hearing from you and learning how this week

1:05:28

goes for you.

1:05:29

Thank you, I'm excited.

1:05:31

We're excited for you. To Vanessa.

1:05:38

One thing that really impressed me about

1:05:41

Vanessa is that it's hard enough to

1:05:43

hold onto your truth when someone gaslights

1:05:45

you, but in this case, it was her entire

1:05:48

family gaslighting her, and

1:05:51

yet remarkably she was able to hold

1:05:53

on to her truth. She was vacillating

1:05:55

a bit, but fundamentally she was able

1:05:58

to hold on to that. That

1:06:00

takes so much strength. It's really remarkable.

1:06:03

Yeah, And I think that that's why it's so important

1:06:05

for her to write down the story from her point

1:06:07

of view, because she keeps toggling

1:06:09

between fear and denial,

1:06:12

and I think what she really sees the story on

1:06:14

paper, she can then hold on to her truth

1:06:16

more easily.

1:06:18

And for that same reason, it's so important

1:06:20

for her to redefine what family

1:06:22

is and what it means to her, because

1:06:25

she really has to know what

1:06:27

it is she's seeking and what it

1:06:29

is she's not getting from her family of

1:06:31

origin. So that'll be a really important exercise.

1:06:35

I know we both had so much compassion for

1:06:37

her. She's in such a difficult

1:06:39

situation. And while this might sound extreme,

1:06:42

I think anybody who's had their

1:06:44

family tell them that what they're feeling,

1:06:46

or thinking or believing is

1:06:49

not okay can relate to what

1:06:51

she's going through.

1:06:58

You listening to deotherapists back

1:07:00

after a short break, So

1:07:14

Laurie, we heard from Vanessa. I'm

1:07:17

very curious to hear how this

1:07:19

week went for her and how she did with the assignments.

1:07:21

So let's take a listener.

1:07:23

I just want to give you an update

1:07:25

on the assignments you

1:07:27

gave me last week. The

1:07:30

first thing was to meet with my friend

1:07:32

and tell them I having

1:07:36

some issues

1:07:39

with my family. I actually

1:07:41

wasn't able to meet my friend because

1:07:43

of errands and weather, so

1:07:47

instead I call someone

1:07:49

on Sunday evening and

1:07:52

I told her

1:07:54

that actually, my

1:07:57

past week wasn't that easy because

1:07:59

I I had some family

1:08:02

issues and

1:08:04

I am still processing

1:08:07

it myself, so

1:08:09

I cannot really tell her anything

1:08:12

specific until

1:08:14

I have sorted it out.

1:08:16

And then, because it was a

1:08:18

call and it was late at night, she

1:08:22

asked me if she wanted

1:08:24

me to have her drive

1:08:26

over so she can keep me a

1:08:28

company. And I

1:08:31

was really surprised

1:08:34

and touched by

1:08:36

her question because

1:08:40

I didn't expect that

1:08:43

kind of response, especially

1:08:46

I did not say anything

1:08:48

besides I

1:08:51

had a bad week because of some family

1:08:53

issue.

1:08:55

I think this is going to the

1:08:58

right direction for me. I

1:09:00

hope to continue

1:09:02

this relationship and

1:09:05

hopefully I can actually

1:09:07

have her over at my place

1:09:09

sometimes. The second

1:09:12

thing on the to do list is to find

1:09:14

a therapist, so I

1:09:16

am working with

1:09:18

my insurance to find someone. At

1:09:20

the moment, I'm probably gonna

1:09:24

speak to a professional in

1:09:28

a week or two. And

1:09:31

as for the letter, so

1:09:34

the first draft I wrote was still

1:09:36

very scattered, trying

1:09:38

to piece everything together in

1:09:40

my own voice.

1:09:41

But I feel so.

1:09:44

Surreal for me still, so

1:09:47

I think I'm gonna try

1:09:49

to write the letter from

1:09:52

a third person perspective, so

1:09:55

I'm no longer I in the

1:09:57

story or

1:10:00

my dad. It will be Vanessa

1:10:03

and Vanessa's dad, so

1:10:06

I can see things more clearly. Because

1:10:09

what really shocked

1:10:11

me was how you

1:10:15

thought my dad was always

1:10:17

this way, but I just choose

1:10:20

to not see him

1:10:23

in that way.

1:10:26

So I want to be able to write

1:10:28

my story from a third person

1:10:30

point of view, first to

1:10:33

see if I can have an

1:10:36

objective storyline,

1:10:41

and last, not least, it's the meaning of

1:10:43

family. So I

1:10:45

just wrote down some aspects.

1:10:49

Families are supposed to be uplifting

1:10:52

and hopeful for each other, and

1:10:54

I hope my family can

1:10:57

embrace me for being me, and

1:11:00

we can get through difficult times

1:11:02

together, celebrate the

1:11:05

happy times together, of course, and

1:11:10

just provide mental support through

1:11:13

the good the bad. And

1:11:17

most importantly, I

1:11:19

can be myself

1:11:22

when I'm around them. I

1:11:24

don't have to behaving

1:11:26

a certain way or wear

1:11:30

a mask. I

1:11:32

just want to say I'm really grateful for

1:11:34

the opportunity to speak to you

1:11:37

both. I really learned

1:11:40

a lot about myself,

1:11:44

my family, my childhood.

1:11:47

It's crazy how you learn something

1:11:49

about me and my

1:11:51

story so quickly, while it took

1:11:54

me so long to realize

1:11:56

there are a lot of things that I'm afraid

1:11:58

of admitting, but somehow

1:12:01

you just get

1:12:03

it.

1:12:05

Thank you, Thank you a lot.

1:12:11

I was so touched to hear how her friend

1:12:13

responded to her saying

1:12:16

I'm having trouble. My week didn't

1:12:18

go so well, and

1:12:21

the offer to drive over

1:12:24

late at night and spend time with her

1:12:26

was something that was so new

1:12:29

to Vanessa. And when we talk about

1:12:32

the other task of defining what family

1:12:34

is, that's what family

1:12:36

looks like.

1:12:37

And I think it was new to Vanessa

1:12:40

because what Vanessa did was new. She

1:12:43

admitted a smidge

1:12:45

of pain and vulnerability. It wasn't

1:12:47

a great week. She couldn't say more, but

1:12:50

she didn't have to say more. The fact that the

1:12:52

friend was so willing to come over, I think means

1:12:54

she's not used to hearing Vanessa say

1:12:57

I'm struggling, and Vanessa has really

1:12:59

been struggling. So to me, this

1:13:02

was a great experiment of open

1:13:04

a little bit of vulnerability. See the response

1:13:06

and if it's encouraging, then do more.

1:13:09

Yeah.

1:13:09

I think she's really learning what family is,

1:13:11

or what family is supposed to be. And I

1:13:14

loved her definition of the meaning of family

1:13:16

because part of that was exactly

1:13:18

what the friend did. She said, they're supposed to emotionally

1:13:22

support you through the good and the bad, and

1:13:25

that's exactly what she

1:13:27

got when she was open

1:13:30

with her friend and vulnerable.

1:13:32

And that means, Vanessa, that family are people

1:13:34

with whom you can feel comfortable being

1:13:37

open and vulnerable. Because

1:13:40

my general sense with her is that this is still

1:13:43

so raw, so unprocessed.

1:13:45

She hasn't been able to talk about it with

1:13:48

anyone, and so she's really in the initial

1:13:50

stages of dealing with this,

1:13:52

of grieving, of processing, of understanding,

1:13:55

and that requires her to open

1:13:58

up.

1:13:59

Yeah, And she said part of her definition of family

1:14:01

was that I can be myself when I'm around

1:14:03

them. So she was dipping her toe in

1:14:05

for the first time, but she was being her

1:14:07

real self and she got such a

1:14:10

warm, supportive reaction.

1:14:13

I also really liked what she said about

1:14:15

the narrative, that it was too difficult to

1:14:18

write in the first person. So she actually

1:14:20

used a psychological technique that we often

1:14:22

recommend. It has a lot of research behind it, and

1:14:24

that's called psychological

1:14:26

distancing, and that is that you find

1:14:29

a way to distance the emotions

1:14:31

so it's less present and suffocating.

1:14:33

And you do that by literally using third

1:14:36

person from first person. And that

1:14:38

shift from first to third person was enough

1:14:41

to take down the distress level to

1:14:43

make it workable rather than too

1:14:45

much.

1:14:46

And that's different from dissociating, So what

1:14:48

she was doing was actually healthy. It was a way

1:14:50

for her to go into a place that feels

1:14:52

very dangerous, but in a way that feels safe.

1:14:55

But she was going into the feelings. That's different

1:14:57

from dissociating, where you're removing yourself

1:15:00

from the feelings.

1:15:01

And I hope nessa that once

1:15:03

you finish that narrative and the third person still

1:15:06

give yourself the task when you're ready to

1:15:09

translate that into first

1:15:11

person, that will be important to do at the point

1:15:13

where you feel you can do it.

1:15:15

And she also started the process of finding a therapist,

1:15:17

which is going to be very important for her

1:15:20

to have a place where she can really

1:15:22

process all of these feelings and feel safe and

1:15:24

comfortable. We give people

1:15:26

a week normally to do our homework

1:15:28

assignments, and our producer said that she turned

1:15:30

this in within a few days, so she was really

1:15:33

ready and she was so receptive and

1:15:35

these were really really hard things to do

1:15:38

in her situation. I so admire

1:15:40

the fact that she was able to do this so quickly.

1:15:43

I think another reason she got so much done this week

1:15:45

because she has been waiting a full year to

1:15:48

open up to talk about it with someone,

1:15:51

and I think doing that got her

1:15:53

to the starting line right.

1:15:55

And what she said at the end about how we saw

1:15:57

things that she hadn't seen before,

1:16:00

I think really what happened was she felt

1:16:02

heard for the very first time.

1:16:04

I think there were things that she knew. We

1:16:06

were able to create a space for her

1:16:09

where she had been afraid to acknowledge

1:16:11

certain things, and now

1:16:14

they were being talked about in an open

1:16:16

way, and that's where we want her to get

1:16:18

to. So I think this will be

1:16:21

a journey for her as she heals, but

1:16:23

I think she's definitely on the right

1:16:25

path. Next

1:16:29

week, a young married couple wants to learn

1:16:31

how to stop their arguments from escalating

1:16:33

into destructive screaming matches.

1:16:36

My sister moved in with us, and there's

1:16:38

been rules that need to be set in place for the household.

1:16:40

We've had certain disagreements and it always

1:16:43

ends with arguments to where we don't even want

1:16:45

to talk to each other anymore.

1:16:46

If you're enjoying our podcast, don't forget

1:16:48

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1:16:51

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1:17:00

If you have a dilemma you'd like to discuss with us,

1:17:02

email us at Lauriandguy

1:17:04

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1:17:07

Our executive producer is Noel

1:17:09

Brown. We're produced and edited by

1:17:11

Josh Fisher, additional editing

1:17:13

support by Zachary Fisher and

1:17:15

Katie Matty. Our intern is

1:17:17

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1:17:19

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1:17:21

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