0:03

I'm Laurie Gottlieb. I'm the author of

0:05

Maybe You Should Talk to Someone, and I write

0:08

the Dear Therapist advice column for The Atlantic.

0:10

And I'm Guy Wench. I'm the author of

0:13

Emotional First Aid, and I write the Dear

0:15

Guy advice column for TED. And

0:17

this is Dea Therapists.

0:19

Each week we invite you into a real session

0:21

where we help people confront the problems in their

0:23

lives and then give them actionable advice

0:26

and have them report back to let us know what happened

0:29

when they did what we suggested.

0:30

So sit back and welcome to

0:32

today's session.

0:34

This week, a mother and daughter who've been

0:37

emotionally distant for the past twenty five

0:39

years try to heal the wounds of the

0:41

past.

0:42

From the moment she said

0:45

she didn't want us to be involved

0:47

in the adoption process, I

0:49

found that Sephanie was rejecting me, and

0:52

as things have gone on for the past years,

0:54

I felt like she doesn't approve of

0:56

me, and so I've just distanced myself.

1:00

First A quick Noteotherapists is for informational

1:02

purposes only. It does not constitute medical

1:04

or psychological advice and is not a substitute

1:07

for professional health care advice, diagnosis,

1:09

or treatment. By submitting a letter, you are agreeing

1:11

to let iHeartMedia use it in part or

1:13

in full, and we may edit it for length and clarity.

1:16

In the sessions you'll hear. All names have been changed

1:18

for the privacy of our guests.

1:23

Hey Laurie, Hey guy, So

1:26

what are we going to be talking about today?

1:28

Today we have a letter

1:31

about a mother daughter relationship. They're

1:33

both going to be here. The letter

1:36

came from the daughter, and here it is deotherapists.

1:40

I became pregnant and placed my baby

1:42

for adoption when I was nineteen years

1:44

old. I was in the second year of

1:46

college and didn't feel I was able to raise a

1:49

child well at that time of my life. The

1:51

adoption was open, and while I don't

1:53

have a particularly close relationship with her,

1:56

we've been working to deepen our adult relationship

1:58

and I feel that's going well. My

2:00

mother, Rona, loves my daughter and

2:03

has a good relationship with her. However, she

2:05

has never been able to forgive me for getting pregnant

2:07

out of wedlock. At one point,

2:09

about ten years ago, she told me it

2:12

was the worst thing I could have done to her. This

2:14

was despite my other successes in life,

2:17

a fulfilling career as a teacher, close

2:19

friends, a paid off house, and a

2:21

generally good life. I visit

2:24

her and my father a few times a year, and

2:26

while from my perspective, she trials

2:28

to hold it together when I visit, most

2:31

visits results in her yelling at me, whether

2:33

it's about the fact that I got pregnant twenty

2:35

five years ago or other small things

2:37

which I suspect are precipitated by

2:39

her lingering anger. I

2:41

think we would both like to have a closer relationship

2:44

but this isn't possible for me while there's this tension

2:46

between us. Please help Stephanie.

2:50

But of note, Laurie is our producer just

2:53

notified us that a week ago

2:55

the father passed away. Now they're still

2:57

coming on the show. The mother and daughter of expressed

2:59

interest in doing that, but we wanted

3:01

to point out that this big thing just happened

3:04

and we'll need to take that into consideration.

3:06

First of all, my condolence is to the family, and

3:09

I think it's interesting that they're both still

3:11

eager and interested in coming

3:13

on today because we offered to

3:16

put this off and they both wanted to still come

3:18

on and talk about this, So I imagine

3:20

that this has been so much in the foreground

3:23

for both of them and something that they've really

3:25

wanted to deal with for a long time.

3:27

Exactly, and yet they haven't been able to repair

3:30

this rupture in twenty five years.

3:32

So I'm curious about why that hasn't happened.

3:35

We have a lot of questions, and probably the best thing

3:37

to do is let's go talk to them.

3:41

You're listening to Dear Therapists for my Heart

3:43

Radio. We'll be back after a short break.

3:53

I'm Laurie Gottlieb.

3:54

And I'm Guy Wench, and this is Dear

3:57

Therapists. Hello,

4:00

Rona and Stephanie.

4:02

Hi, Rona and Stephanie, Welcome.

4:04

Hello.

4:05

Hello.

4:06

You would like to start with our condolences

4:09

and we're all very honored that you're

4:12

able to join us today despite what happened,

4:15

and we'd like to hear a little bit about where

4:17

you both are right now given

4:19

the events of last week.

4:21

My husband has been sick for

4:24

years. It's an autoimmune

4:26

that is progressive and

4:29

it seems to have flared

4:32

maybe two weeks before he died. He was

4:34

in the hospital for a week before

4:36

he died. Stephanie was able to get

4:38

home before he died, so it

4:40

was not unexpected,

4:44

but it's still difficult.

4:47

Of course.

4:48

And for you, Stephanie, what has this been like.

4:51

I didn't realize how much worse it was getting

4:53

They called me early last

4:55

week and I was able to get on a plane and was there.

4:58

He wasn't really talking or anything. By the time I at

5:00

the hospital, I was able to say goodbye and be there

5:02

for the last few hours. You

5:04

know, those first few days are really hard, and then I have so many

5:07

amazing friends and family sending out their club

5:09

and thoughts, and I think I'm a little bit numb and

5:11

not really completely

5:13

processing it sometimes. You know, for a few days I just kind of cried

5:16

a lot. And now it's like I've had so many family around

5:18

and it's actually been kind of nice spend

5:20

time with them. And I think it's going to get harder again

5:22

when I go home.

5:23

Have you and your mom been able to support

5:26

each other through this?

5:27

Yes, I have felt her support

5:30

and Rona.

5:31

Stephanie said that a lot of friends and family

5:33

have been coming out, which is great. Do

5:35

you have a support system in place for when

5:37

Stephanie leaves?

5:38

I do For the moment, I'm actually

5:41

looking forward to some alone time.

5:43

But I have a great network of friends,

5:46

and we have a lot of family in the area.

5:48

And Stephanie, you're going back home, do

5:50

you have a support system there?

5:53

I do. My partner drove out to meet

5:55

me and we were driving back together. And then

5:57

I have lots and lots of friends who've asked what they

5:59

can do, and I made a list actually

6:01

the people who've alveard. And I have a friend who's already like, hey,

6:03

I'll be creating back Friday night, let's hang out. And

6:06

I feel very fortunate to have that too.

6:09

That's good. So

6:11

tell us a little bit about what

6:13

your relationship has been like from

6:17

early on before the

6:19

pregnancy happened.

6:20

I mean, I feel like we had a reasonable

6:22

relationship. I wasn't always the easiest team, but

6:25

I feel like we had a fairly good

6:27

relationship. We bake cookies together,

6:30

and she was very welcome to my friends.

6:32

We got along.

6:33

And wonder what was your perception of the

6:36

early years with Stephanie.

6:38

I always felt like her father

6:40

was the better parent. I

6:42

was kind of the heavy in the relationship.

6:44

The disciplinarian as it were.

6:46

Yes, but yeah, we got along,

6:49

you know, somebody turned a switch when she turned

6:51

thirteen, and I couldn't wait till she went to

6:53

college. She turned seventeen, and I was

6:56

kind of hoping she'd stick around for a little while.

6:59

What was the change? Thirteen?

7:01

She was more secretive. She

7:03

had bad taste in boys,

7:06

and that was always a difficult thing.

7:09

Can you tell us about the boys and

7:11

what the bad taste was about? In your opinion?

7:13

She went after the how

7:15

should I say? Naughty boys? Boys

7:18

who were more

7:20

wild? And I've heard

7:22

from others that this is not unusual,

7:25

especially for teenagers like Stephanie,

7:27

who feel like they can

7:29

reform these

7:32

young men.

7:33

Would you get into conflicts around her

7:35

choice of boys? What would

7:37

happen between the two of you.

7:39

We really didn't argue about it. Her dad

7:41

and I both felt like if

7:44

we forbid this,

7:47

it would not do any good. At one

7:49

time, she said to somebody, my

7:51

parents liked all of my boyfriends, and

7:54

there were some that made us shrug.

7:56

There's a difference, though, between forbidding that she sees

7:58

someone and having a conversation

8:00

about, Hey, can we talk about

8:03

some of the boys you're hanging out with? Did

8:05

you ever have those conversations.

8:08

At least with one I

8:10

could recall a conversation

8:13

and she would say to me, but he's so sweet.

8:16

Stephanie. From your perspective, you

8:19

said you weren't the easiest

8:21

teenager. What did you mean by that?

8:23

I guess it didn't even mean so much that I was

8:25

harder than others. Most teenagers are not

8:27

easy to deal with for their parents. I

8:30

did what I was supposed to, and I got good grades,

8:32

and I was active in band, and I

8:34

have lots of friends, and a lot of the

8:36

guys I dated came from homes that maybe weren't

8:39

nearly a support of his mind, but they were

8:42

good people. From my perspective. My parents

8:44

were pretty judgmental about who I

8:46

dated, and the people I think

8:48

they wanted me a date weren't as good

8:51

end quotes as they thought they

8:53

were. A lot of the people that seemed more

8:55

straight laced were going on and

8:57

partying and drinking a lot

9:00

and things like that, which I didn't do at all. I didn't drink

9:02

alcohol at all in high school, or drugs or anything

9:04

like that. And the guys I dated,

9:07

you know, someone that smoked cigarettes, but they would never

9:09

have let me smoke or

9:12

drink or those things because they knew

9:14

that was bad for them. I have one boyfriend whose dad

9:16

locked in a closet and forced him to spoke a pack of cigarettes

9:18

to try to make him stop, and then

9:20

he was addicted. He said, So, from

9:23

my perspective, these weren't bad kids.

9:25

They weren't doing anything bad to me. They were never abusive,

9:28

they were never unkind.

9:29

So did you feel, then, because you

9:31

knew that your parents disapproved of these boys,

9:34

that you had to hide the

9:36

fact that you were seeing them or was this all out

9:38

in the open?

9:40

I mean, the only thing I hid was things

9:42

I did that went beyond kissing. I'm

9:44

sure I wasn't completely truthful everywhere I went, but

9:47

generally I didn't hide that I was dating

9:49

them.

9:50

So then what happened when he went to college,

9:52

Because that's when you said, do you go pregnant?

9:54

Tell us about what happened around that.

9:56

I went to college and I slept with someone for

9:58

the first time, And whenever I think back, it's like, oh, how

10:00

could I have been so irrational? But

10:02

I was afraid my mom would find out I was on birth control, and

10:04

so I wasn't on birth control of any kind, not even

10:07

condoms, which was just dumb. In retrospect,

10:09

that's so illogical. But I don't know how she would

10:11

have even found out necessarily, not trying to blame it

10:13

on her. That was my thought process. And then I got.

10:15

Pregnant, and tell us what happened once you

10:17

did.

10:18

I had just actually broken up with the he

10:21

had been my boyfriend for several months and I

10:23

was dating somebody new, and I took the

10:25

pregnancy test at that point of or it's

10:27

not an option, and so I was going to place the

10:29

child for adoption. And it was an easy choice.

10:32

Really. People say they must been a difficult choice, but

10:34

it wasn't. It was like, well, this is obviously the thing to do.

10:36

And my new partner was very, very supportant,

10:39

and he stayed with me through the whole pregnancy, and

10:41

I chose her parents.

10:43

And the baby's father, yeah.

10:45

Her biological father wanted nothing

10:47

to do with anything. We still were in classes

10:50

together, but we weren't really speaking

10:52

to each other much. He gave the paperwork to the adoption

10:54

agency with like the medical history and stuff, and that was

10:57

the extent of it.

10:58

So he wasn't really support you

11:00

through the pregnancy.

11:02

Not at all. I had a new partner who was amazingly

11:04

supportive. I think of Danielle as having a biological

11:06

father, a birth father, and adoptive father.

11:09

So the new boyfriend supported

11:11

you throughout the pregnancy, and you stayed

11:13

in college and you took your classes.

11:16

Yes, and you had the baby.

11:19

What year of college were you at that point?

11:21

It was my second year. I had her this summer after my

11:23

sophomore year.

11:24

How did you tell your parents? Tell us

11:26

about that conversation.

11:28

I was terrified to tell my parents. My

11:30

parents came to visit me for a weekend

11:33

while I was in college, and we were sitting around

11:35

eating and I was talking about my stomach kind of not feeling well,

11:37

and it felt better when I ate, And then Mom asked me if

11:39

I was pregnant, and I said.

11:40

Yes, Ronnick, How did that come to your

11:42

mind, the first thing, that she might be pregnant,

11:45

as opposed to just she's got

11:47

food poisoning or isn't feeling well.

11:50

I suppose that was always something

11:52

I was afraid of. I probably

11:55

did not discuss sex as

11:57

much with her as I should have,

12:00

but I thought she would be responsible

12:02

enough to use contraception.

12:04

So tell us what was it like

12:07

for you? For your husband to hear

12:09

the news. How you felt about it?

12:11

Actually, as I remember it, I kind

12:14

of jokingly made that remark when we were

12:16

out eating, and she, as I recall,

12:19

she didn't indicate positively.

12:21

Then she called and talked

12:24

to her dad in the hotel room. That's

12:26

how I remember it. Then she came

12:28

over. You know, at that point, her dad

12:30

and I were not opposed to abortion, but

12:33

she was, and that was fine. That

12:35

was not something that we were going to push

12:37

on her at all. So she

12:40

came over. I took her to the grocery store to

12:42

pick out some foods that helped me because

12:44

I had had a lot of morning sickness when

12:46

I was pregnant. That's probably how

12:49

it just entered my mind.

12:51

So you kind of snapped into supportive mode of

12:53

taking a shop and getting her the right foods to help

12:56

with the morning sickness.

12:58

Yes, and what was going on for

13:00

you and your husband as

13:03

you were digesting this news.

13:05

The first thing we did was make an

13:08

appointment with the adoption agency

13:11

and we went and discussed

13:13

things with them, my husband and I

13:15

did. At that point, we made

13:17

an appointment for the three of us, and

13:20

this probably is when things started deteriorating

13:22

for me because we told Stephanie

13:25

that we had made that appointment, and she said

13:27

she didn't want us to do that. She

13:30

wanted to do it herself.

13:32

Stephanie, can you tell us what happened for

13:34

you?

13:34

I feel like that was when my mom was most

13:37

supportive. That was always supportive, But mom,

13:40

I do remember her taking me grocery shopping, and

13:42

I remember she sowed maternity clothesman because

13:44

that's something she could do. I don't remember anything

13:46

about the adoption agency when I hear that they

13:48

went first, like I should be the one

13:50

to go there and make that appointment.

13:53

In retrospect, I really don't remember anything other than

13:55

going there by myself, so I don't know all

13:57

the details perfectly.

13:59

Can I ask how you felt

14:01

about being pregnant.

14:04

I

14:06

didn't want to be, but it was clear what the path

14:08

was, and then it was like, I'm doing this. Someone

14:11

else is going to have a wonderful child,

14:13

and I've got decent genetics, so that's good

14:15

too.

14:16

I guess what I'm asking is, did you worry

14:19

at all about what your other

14:21

classmates would think and your peers,

14:23

because you know, most people were

14:25

at a different stage. They were just going

14:27

through college, And did

14:30

you worry about how you might

14:32

feel when somebody else

14:34

is going to raise the baby. How did all

14:36

those things sit with you while you were going

14:38

through the pregnancy.

14:40

I didn't worry about what other people would think. I

14:42

was in a fairly liberal school in a small

14:44

department, so everyone

14:47

was really supportive. My professors, my peers,

14:50

they were wonderful. My partner was

14:52

wonderful. I don't think I'm as maternal instinctually

14:54

as a lot of people, so I didn't feel

14:58

super sad about it. My partner and I had planned

15:00

on getting married and having children at some point. We hadn't talked

15:02

about the specifics, and we end up breaking up later. But

15:05

yeah, I just I didn't feel that sad.

15:07

Your mom said the beginning of the deterioration

15:10

happened when they

15:12

went to the adoption agency and they got

15:14

rebuffed and told you wanted to go. But what

15:16

was your experience about when the

15:20

problems began, or when it became clear that

15:22

this is not just a supportive thing

15:24

for your mom, but she's having issues with it.

15:26

What I remember is when she told me

15:28

I wasn't allowed to tell anybody in the family that I was

15:30

pregnant, and she was like,

15:33

you're not going to come home while you're pregnant

15:35

because nobody should know.

15:37

And how did you feel about that, that this is

15:39

to be now hidden or a secret

15:42

or something shameful?

15:43

I certainly didn't feel good. Again, my partner's

15:46

family was very supportive, and so that I just

15:48

kind of let myself be

15:50

surrounded by that family and my

15:52

friends. And it's not like I talked

15:54

to my cousins on a regular basis or anything. I

15:57

was the kind of kid, for the most part, who did with their

15:59

parents told them to, and I kind of was just

16:01

doing that.

16:02

Again, I guess, did you understand

16:04

why your mom wanted you to keep this secret?

16:08

Yeah?

16:08

I mean I know she was very ashamed the fact

16:10

that I got pregnant, or that's

16:12

what I assume I shouldn't say. I know how she feels.

16:14

Do you want to ask her right now how

16:17

she felt at that time, since for twenty

16:19

five years you've never asked her that. Yeah,

16:23

go ahead and ask her.

16:24

How did you feel?

16:25

Mom? That was something

16:28

that was unacceptable in

16:31

my family as I was growing up. Not

16:33

that it never happened, but

16:36

it was something that my parents

16:38

would have been extremely upset

16:40

about.

16:41

The sex out of wedlock or the getting pregnant.

16:43

I mean, obviously one requires the other.

16:45

Well, for them, probably

16:48

the sex out of wedlock. For me, it

16:50

was the irresponsibility of not using

16:53

contraception. For me, that

16:55

was the unacceptable part. And at that point,

16:57

both of my parents had died, so it was thing

17:00

they would have been ashamed of.

17:01

And Sephanie, continue

17:04

asking your mom about how she felt and

17:06

what she envisioned, because there's a lot

17:09

there. She's saying that her parents would have been

17:12

really upset by that, but they weren't

17:14

alive at that point. So maybe

17:17

find out from your mom who she was most concerned

17:19

about. If would get out, what that

17:21

would do.

17:22

I get the sense, mom, that you were

17:25

ashamed that I got pregnant. That was what it was about. Who

17:28

are the people you were ashamed of?

17:29

Find out your grandmother,

17:32

my siblings, and perhaps

17:34

as much as anything, it would

17:38

be a reflection on me.

17:40

What would it say about you that

17:43

I.

17:43

Hadn't been responsible in

17:47

discussing these things with her.

17:50

That you didn't raise her right? Yes?

17:53

Yeah, in this particular point, yes,

17:55

I mean she is a wonderful

17:58

person and she has so

18:00

many good qualities, and

18:03

we are proud of her.

18:05

It feels like this is the only thing that matters when it comes

18:07

to how you feel about me.

18:08

I think I've gotten over that. To tell you the

18:10

truth, I'll tell you what bothers me, because

18:13

I've thought about this a lot. What

18:15

bothers me is that you

18:20

have never said to

18:22

me that you made a mistake.

18:25

I can forgive a mistake, but

18:29

I get the feeling that you don't think

18:31

you made a mistake.

18:32

I think I've been very clear that I made that mistake,

18:35

and then I did the best I could in

18:37

that situation. Maybe I didn't say

18:39

that directly to you.

18:40

Your grandmother and I were out to visit

18:42

you, and she looked at

18:44

the picture of Danielle and she

18:47

hadn't known who.

18:48

She was, and she said she wished

18:50

she would.

18:50

Have yes, and she did get to meet

18:52

her. But I said, in your

18:54

defense, you made

18:56

a mistake, and you turned and

18:59

said no.

19:00

I heard that as saying that Danielle was a mistake

19:03

instead of that I made a mistake, because I have been

19:05

very upfront with anyone I talked to,

19:07

saying that I made a mistake and I

19:09

did the best I could, and I think you

19:12

know this is that she has wonderful parents and

19:14

is a wonderful human. I

19:16

think I heard that differently when you said it, because

19:19

I've always admitted that was idiotic.

19:21

I mean to that unprotected

19:23

sex and expect not to get pregnant.

19:25

And just stupid.

19:26

Clearly that's a mistake, but I

19:28

don't want to say that Danielle is a mistake.

19:31

That's not what I was saying.

19:32

I'm just saying that. I think I heard that differently because

19:34

it was a mistake to get pregnant, but to call a human a mistake,

19:36

it is not okay, Rona.

19:38

What does that do for you to hear Stephanie say

19:41

I made a mistake by not using contraception.

19:44

How does that help you with

19:47

your shame?

19:48

I think I've gotten over the shame. It makes

19:50

me feel good to hear her say that. A

19:53

along from

19:56

the moment she said

19:59

she didn't want want us to

20:02

be involved in the adoption process,

20:04

I felt that Stephanie was rejecting

20:06

me, and as

20:08

things have gone on for the past years, I

20:10

felt like she doesn't approve

20:13

of me, and so I've just distanced

20:16

myself.

20:17

What's so interesting is that that's such

20:19

a mutual feeling you

20:21

both have that each doesn't

20:23

approve of the other. You

20:26

feel Rona that Sephanie doesn't approve

20:28

of you because you felt pushed away

20:30

when you were trying to help, and

20:33

Stephanie you felt very judged by

20:36

your mom. And so you each have had

20:38

your feelings hurt by the other and

20:40

felt pushed away and felt

20:43

like the other doesn't approve of

20:45

how you handled the situation, which it

20:47

sounds like you were mostly on the same

20:49

page about.

20:51

I think the biggest difference is that she

20:53

wouldn't let me tell any of the family.

20:55

Were you able to express that to her at the time,

20:58

about what that meant for you

21:00

able to have that conversation.

21:01

I didn't know how to have that conversation then. I wasn't

21:03

that emotionally intelligent back then.

21:05

Don't tell her now how what that was

21:08

like, having that edict come down that

21:10

you may not tell anyone.

21:12

I was so incredibly hurtful to be hidden,

21:15

being sent off away, like I

21:17

didn't count as a person anymore because

21:20

I was pregnant and

21:23

so grateful I had my partner's family to

21:26

take me in. I spent holidays with them,

21:29

and then for Danielle to be

21:31

a secret. It ate at me more and more.

21:33

How can this human be a secret? She has this family

21:36

and that's not okay? And finally I thought about

21:38

putting the pictures away because Mom was coming out and she was bringing Grandma.

21:40

I'm like, no, I refuse. There's this point of

21:42

like, I am not doing this anymore. This

21:45

is not okay, and I am going to make

21:47

sure that she's no longer a secret.

21:50

How old was Danielle when she

21:53

was no longer a secret?

21:55

Six or seven?

21:56

I think it was more like four.

21:59

But for several years she was a secret. Yes,

22:01

Stephanie, can you tell

22:04

your mom now what it

22:06

was like to have

22:08

Danielle be a secret and

22:11

how it made you feel towards your mom?

22:14

It just felt so wrong, and I

22:16

was probably ashamed of myself

22:19

that I had allowed that to

22:21

happen. I mean, yeah, I

22:23

made one mistake, but that's one mistake

22:25

that has some lots of people make, and I

22:27

did the best I could from there on, and

22:29

that doesn't seem to account for anything.

22:31

That's how it felt in whose eyes?

22:34

Moms? Just moms.

22:37

Everyone else I've ever interacted with has been

22:40

so supportive, and I've been told so many

22:42

times by so many of my friends how much they admire

22:44

what I did. Mom is the

22:46

only one in my life who's ever been

22:48

negative about it. I feel angry on

22:50

Danielle's.

22:51

Behalf, what about on yours?

22:54

And I guess I'm mind too. You

22:56

guess I haven't thought about it like that,

22:59

but I'm definitely been angry about it. Absolutely.

23:01

I thought it was interesting that you said that

23:04

you can't understand her being ashamed

23:07

of a human, and you were referring to

23:09

Danielle, but I think you're also

23:11

saying I can't understand her being ashamed

23:13

of me.

23:14

Absolutely.

23:15

Can you talk more about that to her? Can

23:17

you let her know what that's like, because

23:20

it seems like underneath

23:22

all of this, you and your mom really love

23:24

each other, and

23:27

this created so

23:30

much pain and rejection

23:32

on both sides. Can

23:35

you tell her how rejected you felt,

23:37

what it felt like to feel like she was ashamed

23:39

of you, even

23:42

though you'd been such a good kid your

23:44

whole life.

23:45

Mom so incredibly

23:48

hurtful. I feel like the

23:50

only thing that matters in my entire life

23:52

is this one decision I made when I

23:54

was eighteen.

23:57

It feels like.

23:58

Nothing else matters, and that's so

24:01

incredibly hurtful. I

24:05

feel like you're ashamed of me. I feel what makes

24:07

mistakes and I

24:09

feel like you can't forgive me for this one mistake.

24:12

Roh.

24:13

No, what is it like to hear that from

24:15

her? And I want you to think about

24:17

it, not in terms of defending

24:19

yourself, but more just

24:22

imagining her experience, because her

24:24

experience might be different from yours, but

24:26

just knowing that that is her experience.

24:28

What is it like for you to know that your daughter feels

24:31

that way.

24:32

I'm sorry

24:34

that she talked to her. I'm sorry.

24:37

I'm sorry I gave you that impression. It

24:40

took me years

24:43

to come to terms

24:45

with my feelings about it. And

24:48

apparently I have not let

24:50

you.

24:50

Know when you're saying, apparently

24:52

I have not let you know. Had

24:55

you thought you had let

24:57

her know?

24:58

No, we have had very

25:00

few chances

25:03

to talk, just the two of us. It

25:05

seems like we would get started on something

25:08

and something would interrupt.

25:10

Who did you feel was the one

25:13

creating distance between the two of you? Did

25:15

you experience it as Stephanie

25:17

pushing you away or as you pushing

25:20

her? Like who was taking distance from home?

25:23

In your eyes?

25:24

I felt she was pushing me away.

25:27

Therefore I pushed

25:29

back.

25:30

Why did you not try to initiate the

25:32

conversation with Stephanie to say,

25:34

hey, let's figure this out.

25:36

You know, as time went on, more

25:39

and more in my family were aware of

25:41

her, met her. Maybe

25:43

I felt there was progress.

25:45

Are you saying that the fears that you

25:48

had about what would happen if your

25:50

family knew that she

25:52

had had Danielle didn't

25:55

come to pass? Meaning people

25:58

embrace Danielle, people brace

26:00

Stephanie, that your

26:02

fears didn't come true.

26:04

I A would say they were less judgmental. Yeah,

26:06

it was freeing

26:08

for me.

26:09

And did you let Stephanie know that

26:12

you were feeling differently about

26:15

it because people were finding out and the

26:17

sky wasn't fooling?

26:19

No? Not in so many words, I

26:21

guess I assumed that she would think that

26:23

was so right.

26:26

Often, when we see

26:28

issues, especially between parents

26:31

and their adult children, they

26:33

have so many similarities even though they

26:35

feel like they're very, very

26:38

different. And the similarity

26:40

here is that you

26:44

Rona wanted Stephanie

26:46

to say, hey, listen, I made a mistake by

26:48

not using contraception. Not Danielle's

26:51

a mistake, but I made a mistake by

26:54

not being responsible when I was having sex,

26:57

and you, Stephanie, I

27:00

wanted your mother to acknowledge

27:02

her mistake too, which is I

27:04

made a mistake by

27:07

trying to hide something that

27:09

was not shameful. I

27:12

made a mistake by making you feel ashamed

27:15

of having this baby,

27:18

which is not shameful.

27:21

And neither of you is

27:23

saying that the other person has

27:25

said directly, I made

27:27

this particular mistake, because you both acknowledge

27:31

that you made those mistakes. You, Stephanie said,

27:33

I don't feel like Danielle is a mistake. But

27:36

I made a mistake by not using contraception. I

27:38

wasn't responsible. And Rona,

27:40

you're saying I made a mistake by

27:44

being ashamed of something that turned

27:47

out not to be something to

27:49

be ashamed of. And I

27:51

wonder if maybe you guys could do

27:53

that now, maybe

27:56

Rona, you could start.

27:58

I'm sorry, Stephanie that it took me

28:01

so long to

28:05

realize that

28:07

I should not have been ashamed of you.

28:10

Can you tell her you made a mistake.

28:12

I made a mistake in not

28:17

telling you sooner.

28:20

But the mistake also was

28:22

I made a mistake in hiding

28:26

you. It was bad judgment

28:28

on my part, Can you tell

28:30

her that because that seems to be the way you feel

28:32

now.

28:33

I don't know that I was capable of

28:35

dealing it with it. I

28:37

wish I could have been

28:41

more supportive. I wish I

28:43

did not feel that way, but I've

28:46

been working at coming

28:48

to terms with it. I say to myself,

28:51

I wish Stephanie had never gotten pregnant.

28:54

I love my granddaughter. I'm

28:57

so glad she's in the world. And

29:00

that's my conflict.

29:02

Why at this point do you

29:04

wish that she had never gotten pregnant?

29:06

How has that affected

29:09

your life Stephanie's life, Because

29:12

it seems like Stephanie's doing pretty well

29:15

in life. She seems quite happy.

29:18

She is a wonderful person. She's very

29:20

successful. She's excellent at her

29:22

work. I've watched her. I have great

29:25

admiration for that. I tell

29:27

people how proud I am of her.

29:29

But she also seems to feel whole

29:31

as a person. Yes, So

29:34

why do you wish that she hadn't

29:37

gotten pregnant given how it turned

29:39

out?

29:40

That's my conundrum.

29:42

Well, let me suggest something to you, Rona.

29:45

The part that you're not talking about at

29:47

all, but it was extremely present for

29:49

you at the time was

29:51

that when you're saying to Stephanie, I don't

29:54

want people to know that

29:56

you're pregnant, and you're

29:58

trying to keep that from family,

30:00

who you assumed at the time,

30:02

based on your upbringing, that people would be

30:05

extremely judgmental, that people

30:07

would look at Stephanie very

30:09

very differently, that they would look at you very

30:12

very differently, that they would judge you

30:15

as her parent because

30:17

she got pregnant. That was the

30:19

fear that you had.

30:23

And the part that you don't talk about is that

30:25

when there's a secret, even

30:28

if the secret is being kept for a little bit of time,

30:30

you still walk around with shame. You

30:33

still walk around with a worry of

30:36

if they found out, they would treat

30:38

me differently, they would look at me differently.

30:40

So the fact that you tried to keep the secret

30:43

didn't mean that you weren't impacted

30:45

by it, that you weren't feeling shameful

30:48

yourself. As you said about that,

30:50

I'm the mother here, so it must have been a mess

30:52

on my part. That's what people are going to think.

30:55

I think that's the difficulty that made

30:57

it hard for you to reckon

31:00

Sile and makes it still hard for you

31:02

to reconcile those two things you're not adding

31:04

in the piece about the personal consequence

31:06

to you in your feelings for

31:08

many years.

31:10

I think you're right. I did feel it

31:12

was shame for me. It

31:14

was a shortfall on

31:16

my part.

31:17

You told me in the card just a couple of days ago. You raise your

31:19

children the best you can, then you send them off so

31:22

they can do what they want, and

31:24

you can't be responsible that anymore. And I feel like you're

31:26

taking reverse responsibility for something the

31:28

choice I made. But that's not your fault.

31:30

It's definitely what you're missing here is that

31:33

your mum had said she

31:35

had those fears that people would

31:37

find out and be very judgmental. And

31:40

the part that I was highlighting is she walked

31:42

around with those fears for a very very

31:44

long time. That was a consequence

31:46

for her. It wasn't your responsibility,

31:49

but there was a consequence for her again

31:52

in her head, in her feelings,

31:55

that played out for many years.

31:58

And that's an and not your responsibility,

32:01

not your fault, but it's important for you

32:03

to acknowledge that that was a consequence

32:06

for her regardless even though it wasn't your fault.

32:09

Do you see that?

32:10

Yeah, that makes sense.

32:12

Can you acknowledge that to her?

32:13

I can see how that was very difficult for you.

32:16

More thank you.

32:17

This is the first time, Stephanie, that you're saying

32:20

that.

32:20

Yeah, it's hard for me to separate her

32:23

feelings and the consequences for her from

32:27

the like value judgment of Danielle's

32:29

life. I've never said

32:32

that because until you said that, I guess I didn't really

32:34

separate her feelings of shame

32:36

from a logical truth, perhaps

32:39

right, because I don't think she should have felt shame. I

32:41

don't want her to feel shame about Danielle. Then

32:44

I'd never thought of it in terms of just the absolute

32:48

her feelings.

32:48

And this is where it makes it hard for the two of you to connect,

32:52

because it's hard to separate

32:54

out one thing from the other, so

32:58

for you to really understand her experience.

33:00

At that time, she's

33:02

not saying that Danielle

33:05

is shameful. She's

33:07

saying I

33:10

felt that I had

33:12

been a bad mother, or

33:15

that other people would think that I had

33:17

been a bad mother because

33:21

you got pregnant and

33:23

didn't use contraception. And that

33:25

has nothing to do with Danielle.

33:29

That has to do with Wow,

33:31

I really tried my best. It was

33:33

really important to me. I think your mom took

33:35

great pride in being

33:38

mother, and

33:41

every parent makes mistakes, but

33:43

I think what's really hard is for parents

33:46

to say, I might have made

33:48

a mistake. And this

33:50

doesn't mean that the fact that you got pregnant was

33:52

something your mom did wrong, but in her mind,

33:55

that's where she went with it. That I

33:58

should have talked to her more about this. We didn't

34:00

really talk about sex. Maybe I should have had

34:02

more conversations with her. Maybe I should

34:04

have been more hands on about the people

34:07

she was dating. Who doesn't

34:09

instruct her daughter well about contraception.

34:12

So that was what your mom's

34:14

experience was, and

34:17

at that age it's very hard to see, especially

34:20

given everything you had on your plate at the

34:22

time. But I wonder

34:24

if now twenty five years later,

34:27

you can imagine what

34:30

that must have felt like for your mom walking

34:32

around in her community,

34:35

in her era and her generation

34:39

and the way she was brought up, that

34:42

that had a personal impact on her. Again,

34:45

as guy was saying, not your responsibility, not your

34:47

fault, but just

34:49

that she did have this experience

34:52

and maybe she needs that acknowledge too.

34:54

Oh, I have compassion for

34:57

what my mom was going through at the time. I

35:00

made choices that were very hurtful to me, but

35:03

I understand that

35:05

they came from this place of inner turmoil

35:07

that must have been very very painful for her.

35:10

Yeah, it's so conflated with my

35:12

own feelings of being all

35:15

that hurt. But that makes sense that I

35:18

need to figure out a way to have more

35:20

of a sense.

35:20

Of that they're both there. It

35:23

doesn't mean that you

35:25

didn't feel and don't feel hurt

35:27

by what happened, right, Yeah,

35:30

it means and in addition

35:32

to the hurt, I have some compassion

35:35

for what she was

35:38

going through. That was a very very

35:40

difficult time in her life too.

35:42

Intellectually, that makes a lot of sense. I think to really

35:44

feel it, I need to do a little work to get

35:46

there. But I'm certain I can.

35:48

Look. You both need to do a little

35:50

bit of work to get there, because this is one of those situations

35:54

where both of you have very complicated,

35:57

strong feelings about

35:59

one and about the situation. And

36:01

some of those feelings are warm and

36:03

positive, and your mum

36:06

admires you and respects

36:08

you and thinks the world of you. On the one

36:10

hand, there's this one thing that

36:13

she feels so differently about, or felt so differently

36:15

about, and you felt supported

36:18

initially and then you felt so

36:20

rejected and so alienated. And

36:23

even then you can see no, I know she's trying.

36:25

She has a good relationship with Danielle. It's

36:28

very very mixed. And when we're not used

36:31

to sitting with that contradiction

36:34

of feeling very warmly on the

36:36

one hand, very hurt on the other for

36:38

many years, it really

36:40

feels like I have to make a choice. It's either or

36:43

when it's both. And

36:45

what happened with the two of you is that

36:47

you experience the more challenging

36:50

feelings as pushing each of you away

36:52

from the other person, and then you missed

36:55

the wish to connect or the wish that

36:57

things had been different, And

37:00

you need to spot that going forward because

37:02

both those things are going

37:04

to be there.

37:05

That makes sense.

37:06

Yeah, I was curious about one thing.

37:10

How do you talk about Danielle together?

37:12

Are you able to delight

37:14

and to bund around

37:17

her or is that fraud

37:19

as well?

37:20

I think it's great. I mean she's

37:24

a wonderful young woman. Or proud

37:27

of her. We've always had

37:29

a good relationship with her and her

37:31

parents and her younger brother

37:33

we consider our grandson too.

37:35

Is that something you feel brings you a little

37:37

bit closer when you talk about Danielle?

37:40

I think, so, what about you, Stephanie.

37:42

I feel like there's always that layer of

37:45

this shouldn't have happened. Perhaps

37:48

I'm just so sensitized because we've

37:50

had so many arguments about it, but

37:53

it doesn't feel just one hundred percent

37:56

positive. I guess I feel the judgment from

37:58

her so often on so

38:00

many conversations.

38:01

In your letter, you say that this

38:03

still comes up all the time, and

38:06

I'm wondering, how does it.

38:08

The last time that I remembered it was really bad was

38:10

a few years ago and

38:13

I was going to Norway and I was going to visit

38:15

family anyway. She just

38:18

started yelling at me, and then she said, you're not even

38:20

sorry about Danielle. And that was just a few

38:22

years ago.

38:23

Rona, were you upset that she

38:25

was going to Norway?

38:26

I have no recollection of this conversation.

38:29

I was thrilled she was going to Norway. I

38:32

was a little upset when she was thinking

38:35

about seeing her father's

38:37

relatives at Norway and not mine.

38:39

I didn't get any response from your relatives.

38:42

We were out of the back porch, and you told me how upset you

38:44

were about Danielle and that I wasn't even

38:46

sorry about it. I talked to my best

38:49

friend about it right afterward.

38:50

This is what we call kitchen sinc fighting.

38:53

One issue comes up where somebody

38:55

is upset about something, and then they bring

38:58

up all the old arguments.

39:02

But you're not really talking about the one

39:04

thing that's right in front of you, which is you're

39:06

not seeing my relatives. And

39:09

I think what that brought up for

39:11

both of you was the core of

39:14

the Danielle argument, which

39:16

is not about Danielle, but

39:19

it's about you,

39:22

Stephanie. Are not

39:24

seeing my relatives. Now you might have had

39:26

good reasons. You said you tried to

39:29

contact them, it doesn't

39:31

matter. From your mom's point of view,

39:34

she felt hurt that you were not seeing her relatives.

39:36

Maybe she was embarrassed. Maybe there was

39:38

again that how does this look? Or

39:41

you don't respect me, or whatever came

39:43

up for her around the fact that you were seeing your

39:46

dad's relatives and not hers, And

39:48

so it went to that core of and

39:51

how could you not use contraception? And

39:53

for you, Stephanie, it went to

39:56

the same place, which

39:59

was she's blaming

40:01

me for something that

40:05

I should not be blamed for. And

40:07

that's the argument you guys have a lot. I'm

40:11

displeasing mom, I

40:14

feel blamed. I

40:17

don't feel I should be blamed for this. And

40:20

the reason that this keeps coming up is because you haven't

40:22

really resolved what happened with Danielle,

40:24

which was your mom said, I

40:27

just want you to acknowledge that

40:29

you made a mistake not using contraception,

40:32

and you're saying to your mom, I just want you

40:34

to acknowledge that the way you handle this

40:36

hurt me deeply and that you made

40:38

a mistake by handling it that way.

40:41

Well, I want to ask you something in this

40:43

Norway example. I know you don't remember getting

40:45

upset, but clearly

40:47

your feelings were hurt because you were like, she got

40:50

in touch with my husband's family but

40:52

not with mine, regardless of the why.

40:54

Right now, I'm just curious about

40:57

how easy or difficult you

40:59

find it to express

41:01

it to Stephanie when your feelings

41:04

are hurt. Is that something

41:06

you struggle to do to acknowledge

41:09

my feelings are hurt by that and

41:11

to say that rather than to go to anger.

41:14

I consider myself a rational person.

41:17

I was hurt that

41:19

she wasn't seeing my family,

41:22

and she did end up seeing my family and

41:24

I was very happy about

41:26

that.

41:26

What I'm asking Rona is are

41:29

you able to say to Stephanie,

41:31

Hey, I'm the hurt that

41:33

you're going all the way there. I have family there

41:35

and you're not going to see them. That's

41:38

something you struggle to say. You acknowledge

41:40

it to yourself, but you don't express it to

41:42

Stephanie. Instead, you get angry.

41:44

And I'm wondering if part of why you don't express

41:46

it is what you said a moment ago, which

41:49

is I'm a rational person, and

41:51

often people who think of themselves as rational people

41:53

don't like to feel too emotional, and

41:56

they don't like to own that their feelings

41:58

are hurt a lot of the time because sometimes that's

42:00

not rational. And I'm curious

42:03

about whether that's something you would feel comfortable

42:05

doing saying to Stephanie, hey, you know what, this

42:08

hurt my feelings, To be honest with you, would

42:10

you feel comfortable saying something like that to

42:13

Stephanie.

42:14

I would have to think about it because

42:18

I'm always afraid of saying the wrong thing,

42:21

so sometimes I just don't say it.

42:23

But you're saying, now, I don't say it because I'm

42:25

worried about the reaction. What I'm asking is

42:28

about your comfort level of saying it,

42:30

just you owning that vulnerability,

42:33

which can feel difficult. I'm asking

42:35

regardless, do you feel comfortable owning

42:38

that vulnerability with Stephanie and saying, you

42:40

know, the things that happen that hurt my feelings?

42:42

What would that be like to say something like that to

42:44

her?

42:45

And that would be scary?

42:46

Can you talk about what's scary about it?

42:49

Well, it's scary because I don't

42:51

know how she's going to react. It makes

42:53

me vulnerable, not in control.

42:56

And it puts you in touch with the very

42:58

feeling that you might otherwise be able to push

43:00

off a bit. And I think that's the scary part.

43:03

The irony of being worried

43:05

about the reaction that you're going to get

43:08

is that the way that you do express

43:10

your displeasure gets

43:12

a bad reaction. It's

43:15

guaranteed to get a bad reaction because

43:17

it comes across as blaming, as

43:20

disapproving of her. It projects

43:23

your pain onto

43:25

her and that she has

43:27

to hold all those feelings that you don't

43:29

want to express. But

43:31

when you're more vulnerable

43:34

and tender, which doesn't mean

43:36

you're not rational. You're

43:39

actually being even more rational

43:42

because you're in touch directly

43:46

with what you're trying to communicate, which is you're

43:48

going all the way to Norway. I feel

43:51

hurt that you're not going to be seeing my relatives,

43:55

and it's a statement about you. It's not

43:57

blaming her, it's not getting angry

43:59

with her. It's just telling her here's something to

44:01

know about me. I feel hurt

44:04

that you're not seeing my relatives, and

44:06

then she can do with that what she wants. Hopefully

44:09

she'd won't hear that is blame, right,

44:11

Stephanie. You hear that as oh

44:15

I'm hearing that more as a request, and

44:17

let me explain why I'm not or

44:19

why am I be able to or how we can work

44:21

this out. That

44:24

would be a very new kind of interaction

44:27

for the two of you to have. And

44:31

Stephanie's smiling right now because

44:34

I think that that would be something that she would welcome.

44:37

Sure.

44:38

Absolutely.

44:39

How do you think you would have responded if, in

44:42

that conversation your mum would have just

44:44

said to you, oh, you know, my feelings are kind of hurt.

44:46

You're going all the way there and at

44:48

the moment, you don't have any plans to see my family.

44:52

What would you have said?

44:53

It would have felt a lot better.

44:55

I think I would have said, I'm sorry, I want

44:57

to visit your family too, I really do.

44:59

I just have heard back from them yet, and I don't want.

45:01

To impose yes. I would add one thing

45:03

if you start with mom, thanks for

45:05

sharing that with me. I know that's not easy for you. And

45:09

then the rest because

45:12

it's really scary for her, and your mom has

45:14

a lot of fears that turn

45:17

out to be okay, like the fear

45:19

of how the family would react to Danielle and the

45:21

fear about you not seeing her family. So it's

45:23

important if she's able to express that vulnerability,

45:26

for you to acknowledge that was a difficult

45:29

thing for her and then do that reassurance

45:31

or the response.

45:32

That makes a lot of sense.

45:34

And Grona, you said something that

45:36

I think is important, which is that it's

45:39

very uncomfortable for you to feel like you're

45:41

not in control, which is like

45:43

most of us, we all want to feel like we're in

45:45

control of a situation. But

45:49

one thing we can control is

45:52

how we approach other people. If

45:54

you want to feel in control and have true

45:57

control. You can control

45:59

how you communicate, and

46:02

that doesn't control the other person's

46:05

response, but it certainly influences

46:08

the other person's response much

46:11

more than if you try to control with

46:13

the way you communicate, because you probably

46:16

won't get the reaction that you want,

46:18

and then you're both going to feel very out of control.

46:22

Seems to be what happens. So

46:26

I wonder if we could hear one more

46:28

example of how

46:32

danielle and this argument

46:35

between you still

46:37

comes up.

46:38

I feel that things

46:40

have progressed. She was here for

46:42

the funeral, she was here at Christmas

46:44

time. I thought we were making

46:46

progress, but maybe we're just ignoring

46:49

it.

46:50

I agree that it's gotten better. It certainly has gotten

46:52

better. There was a time, you know, in Daniel's

46:54

first ten years, I would only come home for three days because

46:58

it felt like you were really trying your best to hold

47:00

it together. In three days was.

47:02

As long as it lasted, and then what would

47:04

happen.

47:05

It felt like walking on eggshells, and

47:07

it still does. Sometimes it's not nearly as often.

47:09

Like I had to read her mind, and if I didn't read

47:11

her mind correctly, she'd get upset about something

47:14

like I was home last summer for my uncle's

47:16

memorial and she was upset with my

47:19

dad's brother about something, and she just starts.

47:23

It's not technically yelling, but speaking to me in a harsh voice

47:26

about something. It's not very often that we actually

47:28

talk about Danielle. It's more that my

47:30

senses these upset feelings about her come out

47:33

because Mom's trying to ignore them and she's trying to be a good

47:35

or everything. It's definitely gotten so much better,

47:38

absolutely, but not good enough.

47:41

For us to be close, because when

47:43

she has strong feelings, she does

47:45

struggle to express them in terms

47:47

of the vulnerability, not anger. When she has feelings

47:50

of feeling hurt or worried

47:52

or anxious or fearful, those

47:54

she has trouble expressing. And

47:57

I'm going to suggest Stephanie that just

47:59

going forward in general, when you see

48:01

your mom get angry, I would try and stop her

48:03

and say, Mom, I suspect

48:06

that underneath that there's some hurt. Well,

48:09

there's something a little bit more tender and vulnerable

48:11

going on. Couldn't you take a minute try and get

48:14

in touch because I am very

48:16

much interested in hearing that

48:18

part, and I will respond about

48:20

it. But I would like to know what's actually in

48:22

your heart, not the cover

48:25

for it, which is just getting angry.

48:27

Yeah, yeah, I

48:30

like the idea.

48:31

I'm curious, Rona, what

48:33

would happen between you and your husband when

48:37

you would get angry about something?

48:40

How did the two of you talk

48:42

about things?

48:43

He just simply did not get angry.

48:45

We rarely argued. Do you remember

48:48

us Sephany arguing?

48:50

Never? I didn't know if you

48:52

just didn't argue in front of me or didn't argue.

48:55

It was rare.

48:56

I feel like if you did get angry, Dad

48:59

would just kind of go away for a little while and

49:01

let you calm down. He didn't deal with it, not

49:04

so much if you had an issue with him, but

49:06

if you were angry tangentially

49:09

about me or something else, that he just kind

49:11

of let it go and then you'd

49:13

calm down.

49:14

But what about when you were angry with him? Were

49:17

you able to tell him that you were hurt? Or

49:19

would you get angry in the way that you talk to Stephanie

49:21

when you're angry? And

49:23

what would he do? Because

49:26

I imagine in however many decades

49:28

you were married, that at certain

49:30

times you got angry.

49:33

He would rarely respond with anger

49:36

to my anger.

49:37

But would he respond in

49:39

a way that made you feel heard or made

49:41

you feel like he understood, or

49:44

would work with you on whatever the issue was.

49:48

Not necessarily to be honest,

49:51

I don't ever remember him

49:54

saying I'm sorry.

49:57

So there's a lot in the family of people not

49:59

being able to say to the other person, I

50:01

made a mistake.

50:03

I want to get back to something that you

50:05

just said a moment ago, and both of you said things

50:07

are better.

50:08

At the funeral, she put her arm around

50:10

me. I

50:13

do not remember the last time she

50:17

voluntarily put her arm around

50:19

me.

50:19

What did that feel like? At the funeral?

50:22

It felt wonderful?

50:23

And when is the last time you put your arm

50:26

around her?

50:27

She shies away from hugs,

50:30

so I hardly ever even try to give

50:32

her a hug. I like to hugger before

50:34

she leaves, but

50:37

she really is not a hugger, and

50:39

I tried to respect that.

50:40

So that was a nice gesture, Stephanie, because it was

50:43

very meaningful fear mom to do

50:45

that. What would have to change, Stephanie,

50:47

between you and your mom for you to feel comfortable

50:50

asking for or giving a hug

50:53

from her.

50:54

I would have to feel like I'm not ever walking

50:56

on eggshells. I guess really what comes

50:58

down to is that you'd have to be to

51:01

talk to me about how you're feeling.

51:03

For me, a hug is a way to express

51:06

what I can't put in words.

51:08

Roll, did you hear what Stephanie just said

51:10

about what would make her feel comfortable

51:13

with hugs with you? What

51:16

needs to happen for her to feel comfortable?

51:18

Yes?

51:19

Yes, She says that what would make her

51:21

comfortable is that she needs to see

51:23

some vulnerability from you, a little less

51:25

of the rational and a little more

51:28

connected to your feelings in a most

51:31

human way. That would make her feel

51:33

safer, because I think that your rational

51:35

comes across really stoic, maybe

51:38

cold even, And so it's

51:40

scary to hug someone if you can't tell what they're

51:42

feeling.

51:43

And I can try to

51:45

do that, but that makes me very vulnerable.

51:48

Correct. It also

51:52

puts you in touch with your feelings. It

51:54

also allows you to express the feelings directly,

51:56

rather than have to cover with anger

51:59

or frustration or pushing away. So

52:02

it has many benefits, not

52:05

just hugs. And

52:08

yes, it's scary to do. It's taking

52:10

emotional risks when you do it, but

52:12

to fix your relationship, you'll each have to

52:14

take emotional risks to get closer

52:18

after so many years, And I'm

52:20

curious about whether you each feel ready

52:23

to take emotional risks, small

52:25

ones with one another going

52:27

forward in order to get closer. Only

52:32

do you feel ready,

52:34

willing able to maybe

52:37

experiment with that a little bit?

52:39

Yes, but she's leaving as

52:41

soon as we're done here.

52:42

She's leaving and you'll never see her again.

52:47

And I'm not good on the telephone. I

52:50

can't connect on the telephone.

52:52

Perhaps it has to happen with video calls,

52:54

which are a little better, or perhaps

52:56

it has to happen more in person. There might be more

52:58

reason now and more now to visit

53:00

one another. Stephanie,

53:03

do you feel ready to take

53:05

emotional Well? That was quick, Okay, good? But

53:08

you do understand how scary this is for yourma?

53:11

Yeah, because I feel like it's the same

53:13

kind of fear I have about hugs or whatever.

53:16

I think that's a great comparison that

53:18

where she feels comfortable with hugs, you

53:21

feel comfortable with words. And

53:23

especially now that your dad

53:26

is not here, I think

53:28

it gives the two of you an opportunity to

53:32

start a new chapter in your own relationship.

53:34

Yeah, it might highlight for the two

53:37

of you that we all have a limited time

53:39

here, and so

53:41

you could continue with the

53:43

patterns that have been going on for twenty

53:46

five years, or

53:48

you could do something different now that might feel

53:51

so much warmer,

53:54

richer. We're loving, We're

53:58

connected, and

54:00

I think you both really really want even

54:04

if it's scary, and I think you've wanted

54:06

for a long time, both of you.

54:08

This has helped me to hear

54:13

things verbalized. I've just not

54:15

been able to verbalize them.

54:17

I wonder if you could both tell

54:21

each other what mistakes

54:24

you have made so the other

54:26

person can hear it. Stephanie,

54:28

can you start and

54:31

don't do butts and caveats?

54:33

And we know that Danielle is not a mistake.

54:36

Nobody here is saying that. Can

54:38

you just name the mistake

54:40

that you made and ask your

54:42

mom if she can forgive you for that mistake.

54:46

I made a mistake when I

54:48

didn't use contraception. Can

54:51

you forgive me for that?

54:52

Absolutely?

54:54

Yes, thank you, Brona.

54:57

That sounded so honest and authentic

55:00

and immediate.

55:02

There was no hesitation,

55:04

there was no pause, Your

55:06

voice was strong. It sounded extremely

55:09

genuine.

55:10

Yeah, yeah, it is genuine.

55:14

And Stephanie, I can see that you're tearing

55:17

up and this felt very meaningful to you.

55:19

Yeah, you might not fully trust

55:22

it because

55:24

it's new, but

55:26

I want you to take in what just happened,

55:28

because I think you've been waiting a long time for it, and it's

55:30

probably been there a long time. But as

55:32

your mom said, she's not really good at verbalizing,

55:35

but she's probably felt that forgiveness

55:37

for a long time and it just had

55:39

never been spoken between the two of you. Thank

55:42

you and Rona.

55:44

Can you ask Stephanie

55:48

to forgive you for the mistake that you made,

55:52

which was making her

55:55

feel shunned like a secret,

55:57

like she was shameful.

55:59

I'm sorry I made

56:02

you feel like

56:04

you were shunned. I made a

56:06

mistake. If I were to do

56:08

it again, I would handle things differently.

56:12

I'm sorry.

56:13

Tell her how you would handle it if you could do

56:15

it again now, knowing what you know now.

56:18

I would not have hesitated

56:20

to share with others

56:23

your pregnancy.

56:26

It was my

56:28

feelings that were the problem. I'm

56:30

sorry.

56:32

Thank you and Stephanie. That doesn't

56:34

mean that you're not hurt by it. Do you

56:37

understand the difference.

56:38

Yeah, okay, I hear you when you

56:40

say that it was about

56:42

your feelings and

56:45

that you would have done it differently, And

56:47

I appreciate

56:49

that, and I forgive you for the way things were

56:51

making those choices.

56:53

I really would do it differently.

56:56

I'm sorry.

56:57

This is one thing that came across in the letter

57:00

where you said we both want to have a closer relationship,

57:03

and people haven't say that, but

57:06

wow, you really

57:08

both want to have a closer

57:10

relationship and have wanted to for

57:13

a very long time. And

57:17

I think it's so important that you both understand

57:20

that the same desire that you have.

57:23

I wish we were closer. I wish that stuff hadn't

57:25

happened in that way is

57:27

a very mutual feeling.

57:30

And the part that trips people up is they feel

57:32

like, well, now I have to not feel any of the hurt.

57:35

You can still feel all the hurt. Nobody's

57:38

saying forget all the hurt, forget all

57:40

the pain. We're saying, now

57:44

you have an opportunity to see

57:46

what happens when you

57:49

aren't living under the cloud

57:51

of something that was a

57:53

huge rift in your relationship, and

57:56

that you start to repair it. Not that it all just goes

57:59

away magically, but

58:01

that you start to repair it, and you start to talk

58:04

about it differently, and you start to really

58:06

look at who you are to each other now

58:10

as mother and daughter. Because you

58:12

two both want something and you're

58:14

both equally terrified of it.

58:18

We want to help you get through the terror. A little bit.

58:20

Before you were born, I wanted

58:23

you more than anything, and

58:27

you've been a wonderful, wonderful

58:29

daughter. You were a wonderful child.

58:33

We always love you, and

58:35

I am proud of you.

58:38

Thank you for saying that.

58:40

It means a lot.

58:41

Did you wonder whether she loved

58:44

you in that way or was proud of you?

58:46

Absolutely?

58:47

You didn't know that for sure.

58:50

I've always known Dad loved me and I was proud of me, But

58:52

I kind of felt like his

58:56

love was always unconditional and moms felt

58:58

conditional, and I

59:01

kind of wondered.

59:02

A couple of years ago, I was wondering, like I do, I wonder

59:04

if you want an auto.

59:05

Kate, Oh, more

59:07

than anything.

59:09

Yeah.

59:10

When I was little, I would say to my

59:12

mother, I love you and

59:15

I like you, And

59:18

I can say that to you, I love you and

59:20

I like you.

59:23

I love you too.

59:25

Thank you.

59:27

Roan. That was you being vulnerable. You

59:29

got emotion a little bit when you were saying it.

59:32

This is you being vulnerable and opening up.

59:34

And this is you Stephanie making it safe

59:36

for her and responding in

59:38

a lovely way. And

59:40

I'm glad you did that role. And I'm glad you took that risk

59:43

right now.

59:44

And do you see the reaction on Stephanie's

59:46

face? You see how

59:48

much you touched that little girl that you wanted

59:50

so badly by telling

59:52

her I love you and

59:55

I like you. Because

59:58

there are two different things, Yeah,

1:00:00

they are.

1:00:05

Rona and Stephanie. We have some advice

1:00:07

for you, and it's in multiple

1:00:09

parts. Here's the first part.

1:00:13

We know you're both grieving the

1:00:15

loss of your dad, Stephanie

1:00:18

and your husband, Rona. We know

1:00:20

Rona that you don't love the phone, but

1:00:22

you did a great job today on the Zoom

1:00:25

call. So we would like you both to have one zoom

1:00:27

call with one another this week,

1:00:30

and we'd like you, in that call to

1:00:32

each share two

1:00:35

difficult moments that you've had

1:00:38

around the grieving. It

1:00:41

could be moments where you were

1:00:44

missing him very much, where you were

1:00:46

feeling very very sad, where you were feeling

1:00:48

worried about the future, whatever

1:00:50

the vulnerable feeling is.

1:00:52

Because we're going for sharing something

1:00:54

that's difficult, we want you to

1:00:56

each share two moments

1:00:59

like that with the other person, and

1:01:01

when you do that, we would like the other person

1:01:04

to respond in a very simple

1:01:06

way, no advice, just

1:01:09

I understand how you feel. I

1:01:11

get it. I'm so sorry that

1:01:14

you're hurting, and we'd like you to notice

1:01:16

how that feels, to say

1:01:18

that to the other person, to receive it

1:01:21

from the other person.

1:01:22

The second thing that we

1:01:24

would like you to do is,

1:01:29

we were so moved by

1:01:33

Rona you telling Stephanie how

1:01:35

much you love her and like her,

1:01:39

even though you don't tend to verbalize

1:01:41

those things, and Stephanie you said,

1:01:43

I always felt it was conditional, like

1:01:46

if I did the right things, then I was

1:01:48

loved, and then if I made a mistake, then maybe

1:01:50

I wasn't. And

1:01:52

so we would like you to share with each other

1:01:56

one memory each.

1:02:00

I'd like you to share with Stephanie a

1:02:02

moment from her childhood. You talked about how

1:02:05

much you wanted to have her and how

1:02:07

lucky you felt to have her. What

1:02:10

is one moment that you can share with her from

1:02:12

her childhood where you just delighted in

1:02:14

her, not her accomplishments,

1:02:17

not something that she did that was external

1:02:19

to her, but just

1:02:22

a memory of being with her where

1:02:25

you felt so lucky to

1:02:28

be her mom and

1:02:30

you just delighted in the moment with her. And

1:02:32

Stephanie, we would like you

1:02:35

to share a moment with your mom from your

1:02:37

childhood when you felt so

1:02:39

loved by her. We

1:02:42

know that you were closer with your dad and sometimes

1:02:44

your mom wasn't able to express her love

1:02:46

as much or in the same way, but

1:02:49

there must have been moments because we can tell

1:02:51

from the closeness that you have and you're smiling, so we

1:02:53

can tell that that's true. We'd like you to

1:02:55

share a moment from your childhood where

1:02:58

you felt so loved by her. So

1:03:00

that's task number two,

1:03:04

and we'd like you to do that again on a zoom.

1:03:07

Here's the next task and

1:03:09

it will also involve a zoom call. We

1:03:12

would like you to have a call with Danielle,

1:03:14

both of you together with Danielle,

1:03:17

and we would like you to tell her

1:03:20

how meaningful it was to

1:03:23

have her at the funeral, how

1:03:25

much you appreciated her

1:03:27

coming, how much you appreciated

1:03:30

her support and

1:03:33

how happy you are to

1:03:36

have her in your lives. These

1:03:39

are things you might have said to her already. We're

1:03:41

not sure she's ever heard that coming from both

1:03:43

of you at the same time, in the same moment, and

1:03:47

we think there would be a nice thing to

1:03:49

do to set the stage for three

1:03:51

generations of women being

1:03:53

together, talking together, with expressing love

1:03:57

to one another together.

1:03:59

And the last thing that we would like

1:04:01

you to do. This may or may not come up this week,

1:04:03

but this is a long term assignment. If it

1:04:05

doesn't, this is a tool in your toolbox,

1:04:08

and that's if you

1:04:11

see your mom, Stephanie, getting angry with you,

1:04:13

we want you to stop her

1:04:16

and ask her, is this about

1:04:19

some kind of hurt or some kind of fear and.

1:04:23

Rona.

1:04:23

What we want you to do in that

1:04:25

moment is to really

1:04:28

talk to yourself and soothe

1:04:30

yourself. And the one

1:04:33

thing that I think happens for you is that you

1:04:35

feel like you're out of control if you get

1:04:37

vulnerable. So we want you to remind

1:04:39

yourself in that moment, I am not out of

1:04:41

control if I express feelings.

1:04:44

That's going to be a big reframe for

1:04:46

you because you have this idea

1:04:48

in your head that if I get vulnerable,

1:04:50

I'm not in control anymore. So

1:04:53

when Stephanie stops you, we

1:04:55

want you to think about her question, am

1:04:57

I feeling hurt? Am I feeling scared?

1:05:01

And then can I be vulnerable and express

1:05:03

that to her as opposed

1:05:05

to the anger, the blame, the judgment.

1:05:07

And Stephanie remember that when you'd redirect your mom

1:05:10

and say Mom, usually

1:05:12

when you're angry, it's because you're hurt or because

1:05:14

there's some fear there. Tell me about that. If she's able

1:05:16

to, then the first thing you say is,

1:05:19

Mom, thank you so much for sharing that with me. I

1:05:21

know that was very difficult for you, and I

1:05:23

so appreciate your trust.

1:05:25

Yes, you don't have to agree with the thing that

1:05:27

she's hurt or afraid about, but

1:05:30

you have to create a space where she can trust

1:05:32

that she can share that with you, and

1:05:34

that will create some safety between

1:05:37

the two of you. Right, And

1:05:39

one last thing, if you start

1:05:41

to feel safer with each other, Stephanie,

1:05:44

you might want to put your arm

1:05:46

around your mom when you see her.

1:05:50

You might see what that does in terms of

1:05:52

bringing her closer to you too, in a

1:05:54

way that feels comfortable to both of you.

1:05:56

Thank you for helping

1:05:59

us verbalize things that I

1:06:03

couldn't verbalize. I

1:06:05

couldn't quite wrap my mind around

1:06:07

to get out the right way.

1:06:09

Yes, thank you.

1:06:10

Be very helpful. Thank you.

1:06:13

You're very welcome. We really look forward to

1:06:15

hearing how the week goes for you.

1:06:17

You

1:06:23

know, when people come to us for therapy

1:06:26

with someone else, whether that's a couple or

1:06:28

whether it's a parent and a child, usually

1:06:32

the problem has been going on for quite a

1:06:34

while, and we

1:06:36

don't know how much repair

1:06:39

has to happen before they can figure

1:06:41

out where they are now, who they are to each

1:06:43

other now, and what might happen moving

1:06:45

forward. And what I really loved about

1:06:47

this session was that even though this had

1:06:49

been such a long standing issue between the

1:06:51

two of them, that were willing to be vulnerable

1:06:54

with each other, they were willing to try

1:06:56

new ways of communicating with each other. They

1:06:58

were able to open up about what

1:07:01

these long standing grievances

1:07:03

had been and what was going on for

1:07:05

each of them. And I think that's a really

1:07:07

positive sign.

1:07:09

I agree, And I'm also

1:07:11

going to say what we would say with a long

1:07:13

standing issue, Great, you

1:07:16

have a little more understanding of

1:07:18

one another right now. It

1:07:20

will take a lot of work and

1:07:22

mindfulness to

1:07:25

keep doing this to repair

1:07:27

a relationship that's been strained

1:07:29

for twenty five years. I actually

1:07:31

think it's very possible for Rohna and Stephanie.

1:07:34

But they're going to have to get comfortable

1:07:36

with emotional discomfort, and they're

1:07:39

going to have to be able to forgive each other for

1:07:41

mistakes, because no one changes all at

1:07:43

once. But if they can do that, and

1:07:45

if they can work at it, I

1:07:47

think there's hope to really recover

1:07:50

in a substantial way.

1:07:57

You're listening to, dear therapists. We'll

1:07:59

be back after a short break. So

1:08:13

Guy, we heard back from Stephanie and Rona, And first

1:08:15

we're going to hear from Stephanie and then we're going

1:08:17

to hear from Rona. Let's hear what happened this week.

1:08:20

Hi, Lurie and Guy reporting on

1:08:22

this week's assignments. The first

1:08:25

thing Mom and I did was have a zoom call with Danielle

1:08:27

where we expressed our love and admiration

1:08:29

for her, and she seemed very pleased to

1:08:31

hear us say that. I know

1:08:33

that I'm not always very good about expressing

1:08:36

those things either,

1:08:38

So thank you for that assignment and the three of us

1:08:40

decided we'd definitely like to do some more of those in the

1:08:42

future. The second assignment,

1:08:44

Mom and I did a zoom call where we talked about two

1:08:47

times that were difficult regarding Dad's

1:08:49

death for us. And while

1:08:51

we weren't perfect about just listening

1:08:54

without giving advice or

1:08:56

judgment or anything, I know that something both of us

1:08:58

can work on and plan too.

1:09:01

And then the other assignment was for

1:09:04

each of us to share a joyous moment

1:09:06

from my childhood, and I

1:09:08

shared a time with Mom and I would make

1:09:10

decorations for the windows for holidays. I

1:09:13

always remember that fondly. The fourth

1:09:15

part of the assignment where I was to respond

1:09:18

to Mom if she gets angry. That hasn't happened

1:09:20

yet because it generally happens in person and

1:09:22

I had already left. I do the really

1:09:24

appreciate having a tool and the permission

1:09:26

to use that tool when I do

1:09:28

see Mom starting to get angry with me. So

1:09:30

thank you very much for that. I think that's going to help

1:09:33

things a lot with us, And overall,

1:09:35

I've just felt that our relationship has been

1:09:37

lighter and more open ever

1:09:39

since that conversation. I

1:09:42

think that you have opened a door and shined

1:09:44

a lad on a path for us to move forward and grow

1:09:46

closer over time, and

1:09:49

I'm deeply grateful for that. Thank

1:09:51

you.

1:09:52

This is Rona. First

1:09:55

of all, I

1:09:57

wanted to talk about our difficult time

1:10:00

misgrieving. The

1:10:02

most difficult time I had was

1:10:06

when someone asked about him who

1:10:08

had not heard of his death, and

1:10:11

I had to tell them that he was gone.

1:10:15

Another moment that hit me was

1:10:17

when I needed to find a tool to make a repair

1:10:20

and I couldn't ask him where it was. I

1:10:24

had to search. Stephanie

1:10:27

and I both miss him, but

1:10:29

realized that we have done much of our

1:10:31

grieving as we watched his health

1:10:33

decline. A moment

1:10:36

when there was pure joy

1:10:41

when I looked at Stephanie shortly

1:10:43

after she was born. Even

1:10:45

though I was exhausted as a new mother,

1:10:48

I felt amazing love seeing

1:10:50

her sleeping in her carriage.

1:10:53

As she grew. Her joy

1:10:56

in riding her bicycle was

1:10:59

contagious. It

1:11:03

was great to have Danielle and Stephanie together

1:11:05

with me on zoom. I

1:11:08

just wanted to snap a picture of us expressing

1:11:10

our love for each other, just to keep it in

1:11:12

my heart. It made me

1:11:15

realize how few times the three of us

1:11:17

were together. Two at a time was not

1:11:19

unusual, but the three

1:11:21

of us together was less frequent,

1:11:25

and I thought it was one

1:11:28

of the nicest things that have happened to me. Thank

1:11:31

you.

1:11:36

So I'm going to start with the thing that

1:11:38

grabbed me the most, and that is how

1:11:41

they each both Stephanie and Rona

1:11:44

seemed so delighted with

1:11:47

their call with Danielle that

1:11:49

they loved the fact that it was three of them on the

1:11:51

call. There was something about them doing that

1:11:53

together that really felt good to them.

1:11:55

It felt good parentty to Danielle, and

1:11:57

that the fact that they want to do more of that sounds

1:12:00

great. That sounds like a really nice

1:12:02

thing for all three, right.

1:12:04

And I grabbed onto that too, because that's

1:12:06

really what the letter was about, which was

1:12:09

how do we start to heal this? And

1:12:11

it sounded like it was such a meaningful

1:12:13

experience for all three of them, and

1:12:15

I love that they're going to be doing more of this.

1:12:18

In terms of the joyous moments from Stephanie's

1:12:21

childhood that they shared with one another were

1:12:23

lovely, the birth and riding the

1:12:25

bike, the holiday decorations.

1:12:28

They are each good at

1:12:30

describing what brought

1:12:33

them the joy, and they're both

1:12:35

not great at describing the joy.

1:12:38

The emotional component for them

1:12:40

is always implied in the action,

1:12:43

but they have a really hard time actually

1:12:45

talking about their feelings of joy and

1:12:48

describing them fully.

1:12:49

Yeah, and we saw that in the Grieving part

1:12:52

two, where we asked them to share some

1:12:54

difficult moments they had around the grieving

1:12:57

and have the other person support without

1:12:59

it. But when they were sharing

1:13:01

this part, we didn't hear

1:13:04

the emotion. Rona said

1:13:06

they did a lot of their grieving when the father was sick.

1:13:08

But I think that that grieving was very internal for

1:13:10

both of them, and so it would be great if

1:13:13

they could share more of their

1:13:15

emotional experience with each other.

1:13:18

I think that would really bring them closer, and.

1:13:20

I would suggest to both of them that, Stephanie,

1:13:23

the next time you have this conversation, say with

1:13:25

your mom and she says, oh, there was this

1:13:27

really difficult moment where I needed a tool

1:13:29

and I didn't know where it was and I couldn't ask

1:13:31

your father because he wasn't around. I

1:13:34

don't know how you responded when she told you

1:13:36

that, but a great response would be, Mom,

1:13:38

tell me more about what that was like for

1:13:40

you. Tell me more about what came up

1:13:42

for you in that moment. I'd love to hear

1:13:44

what your experience was. They

1:13:46

both really struggle to express the emotions, so

1:13:49

they have to really invite the other person

1:13:52

to do so. This is something that takes

1:13:54

practice and they both need quite

1:13:56

a bit of it, especially Rona. You need to

1:13:58

practice expressing these emotional feelings

1:14:01

because that's how you can get in touch

1:14:04

with what those feelings are for you.

1:14:05

And I think what will make that easier for them is what Stephanie

1:14:08

said near the end, that there's

1:14:10

just a lighter and more open feeling

1:14:12

between the two of them since they had

1:14:15

this session. I think that will really help them

1:14:17

to open up to each other and feel more

1:14:19

comfortable doing that. And I liked what

1:14:21

Stephanie said about even though

1:14:23

they did not have an argument

1:14:25

this week, because that usually happens in person,

1:14:28

that she now has the tools and she feels like she has

1:14:30

permission to use the tools. It's kind

1:14:32

of like we help them establish a boundary between

1:14:35

them, and now they know that if this comes

1:14:37

up in the future, that Stephanie can

1:14:39

hold that boundary and Ronan knows exactly

1:14:41

what that boundary is. So I think that that will be

1:14:43

helpful to.

1:14:44

My last thought here is that what I

1:14:47

heard from both of them was

1:14:49

hesitancy and hope. There's

1:14:51

still hesitant. There's still a lot more

1:14:54

to prove and a lot more to show one

1:14:56

another about the fact that they

1:14:58

are now in a new chain in

1:15:00

their relationship, and it does feel like they're

1:15:03

on a new chapter, and it does

1:15:05

feel like there's a lot of hope, but there's still

1:15:07

a lot of hesitancy. So as long as

1:15:09

you keep working together, talking together,

1:15:11

and really trying to share the feelings

1:15:13

and validate those feelings, I think

1:15:15

you will be able to continue to

1:15:17

make a lot of progress and really

1:15:20

start a different relationship than

1:15:22

the one you've had of the past twenty five years.

1:15:27

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