0:00

this week on

0:02

the new yorker radio our the hamas attack

0:04

israel's retaliation and the possible

0:06

consequences for the middle east in the world

0:08

the new yorker radio our for every you

0:10

listen to podcasts

0:15

hey a phantom and want to let you know that

0:17

this week's episode deals with the sudden death

0:20

of a young child please take care

0:22

while listening

0:24

i don't know what i believe about like the bigger

0:26

picture it but i

0:28

have now thought about like wow

0:32

did i land in this career because

0:35

i needed this were

0:38

my own journey my own

0:40

healing they don't know

0:43

there's something that seems true about that

0:49

this is dan sex and

0:52

money the

0:54

show from w and my field about

0:57

the things we think about a line and

1:00

need to talk about more money

1:03

and sale after

1:10

doctor bonnie chen son died

1:13

last year they change the way she

1:15

talked to her own patients about death she's

1:17

more tentative and her approach now she

1:20

wants to communicate about end of life in

1:23

ways that a patient is ready to here

1:26

so there are many visits were

1:28

i don't use the word death at all

1:31

and i find now

1:33

that i really do

1:35

feel my role is to walk

1:38

alongside someone in

1:42

their serious illness and

1:44

sometimes denial is a beautiful coping

1:47

mechanism

1:49

bonnie

1:51

is in her forties and lives in oakland

1:53

california most of her

1:55

conversations with patients revolve around

1:57

death somehow because she's a palliative

1:59

there's nationalist spot

2:02

in the help patients manage serious

2:04

arson untreatable illness when

2:07

it's more about comfort

2:08

and there's something

2:10

about being

2:13

able to be with people

2:16

when they're getting hard news or when they're

2:19

trying to figure out what's the or

2:22

i see patients

2:24

communicate with their families of them trying

2:26

to love each other they best they can

2:28

in the worst situation it

2:31

take you get the window

2:33

into people's lives that of

2:36

course you would never have otherwise

2:39

edmunds

2:40

is a different kind of satisfaction

2:43

then

2:45

being able to sit someone or cure

2:47

some one bonnie

2:50

has been a palliative care

2:51

doctor for ten years mostly

2:54

working with patients who are dealing with terminal cancer

2:57

something bunnies mom died from when

2:59

bonnie was seventeen

3:01

i think the

3:02

unspoken message i took in

3:04

as a teenager was that

3:06

mom is said keep your head down

3:10

train get your age don't

3:12

cause a fuss and in

3:15

retrospect foot

3:18

ceiling for holidays for me

3:20

to be named though my emotions from those

3:23

times

3:24

i think thirty seven subconscious

3:26

part of me that knew that

3:29

palliative care filled that void

3:32

for my teenage self

3:35

own

3:41

it was you know about your son's

3:43

yeah he died suddenly

3:46

and an accident

3:47

when he was sixteen months old and

3:51

this was about a year ago

3:54

titus wanna go slow here

3:57

i'm

3:58

when i'm on a just said that what

4:02

happened in your body today

4:10

is to feel the shudder moves

4:12

through me like

4:16

oh the plague those are fact that

4:20

in i just stayed in and

4:22

makes you

4:24

know like cannot really be

4:28

the reality of thing but

4:31

so worth a moon and

4:33

then like

4:36

i never asked him relaxing

4:41

into the and yeah

4:43

that's true

4:49

the spring after her son benji

4:51

died bonnie wrote an essay

4:53

in the san francisco chronicle

4:55

the she has reading part of it i

4:57

experienced life on the other side of the exam

5:00

table in for it slow motion

5:02

technicolor i

5:04

sat on the other end of a nine one one com

5:07

or read in the ambulance as a caregiver

5:09

not a first responder always

5:12

it outside the emergency room as i heard the

5:14

doctor call out for vital signs and

5:16

medications and most tellingly

5:18

to my ears a social worker

5:21

i

5:23

experienced the silence after the club's

5:25

a loss and the team locked warily out

5:27

of the room

5:29

this time i was the one

5:31

to well

5:34

did you go

5:37

to a hospital where

5:40

he worked neuron

5:43

season know anybody professionally the

5:46

he which and grateful for simply

5:49

why grateful i was at

5:52

comforting because

5:58

the experience is true it it and

6:05

i wouldn't

6:08

want to have to choose between

6:13

doing the work that idea where i do it

6:15

ends of so caring

6:17

for myself by not exposing myself

6:20

term trauma

6:25

now i hadn't thought about

6:27

that i was thinking it was about sort of

6:29

privacy or something and

6:32

for you it's the physical space has

6:35

so much

6:36

heaviness

6:38

yeah

6:39

i i am i

6:42

just wanna be able to sort of i'm

6:47

picture how what

6:51

happened after you were leaving the hospital

6:54

i also aware that i'm even

6:56

like asking his sake ah

7:01

it's really uncomfortable for me i'm

7:03

just like the because there's something

7:05

about that the the horror of

7:08

a sap last am so

7:12

panasonic

7:12

knowledge that i'm

7:17

more you by yourself at the hospital

7:19

with the anti know

7:23

i'm after

7:25

we had someone to watch our older

7:27

son my husband team and

7:29

then my sister and her husband and

7:32

so

7:34

they were for a bus fare

7:40

and how long to stay away from work

7:46

i went back in april

7:48

so

7:48

i was asked for nine months

7:52

when you when you think about

7:54

that does nine months you know that's

7:56

a good contained period

7:59

now that you can back on am

8:03

does it

8:04

does it feel like it unfolded in

8:06

a way where there was a car

8:09

where they were distinct seasons

8:11

does it feel like oh

8:13

but what were those nine months

8:16

like how

8:18

did you do

8:20

sometimes they say

8:22

that exact question was ah

8:27

you know and i say this

8:30

sort

8:30

of really knowledge aim that it

8:37

was real privilege to be able to

8:39

take nine months off work

8:42

and

8:45

the first month was

8:51

mostly

8:53

in a huge he

8:57

was planning a mole seems

9:04

out about such things go to gather the

9:06

other

9:08

well when you wake up at three in

9:10

the morning every day beacon

9:14

your body the not let use the heap

9:16

than than

9:19

you do a bunch of googling of things

9:21

you'd never see the solar cars and

9:24

creating google docs and

9:27

yeah but then there's still no

9:32

eighteen hours of a week time

9:35

where you have no idea how you'd

9:37

of the day was than

9:40

you know i have a type a doctor

9:43

personality and i feel like there was a

9:45

phase where i was trying to get an a in greece

9:47

says like

9:49

consuming every

9:51

greece book every child loss

9:53

podcast i could find didn't

9:56

like reading

9:59

a hearing other stories

10:01

trying to like you know find

10:03

one sentence that resonated

10:05

or could explain what i was

10:07

going through because it was so unlike

10:10

any feeling i had

10:12

ever experience

10:13

and

10:16

when you see get an a in greece

10:18

what was it like

10:20

to figure out how to deter arms around

10:22

it and get

10:24

it like understand it intellectually

10:27

like what was i think

10:28

so

10:29

and almost as if like i had

10:31

control to like about

10:33

really love devoted myself the

10:35

learning about at all

10:38

i would feel better after x amount

10:40

of can take even seen

10:42

that out of thing so ridiculous

10:45

there is a feverish snus with

10:47

which i was pursuing it that felt like

10:50

oh i think i thought

10:52

that somehow and then that

10:54

was unsure about of have no

10:57

googling and three in the morning

11:00

oh like

11:02

how do i find a very small urban

11:05

masked you

11:06

know

11:07

what songs

11:09

are appropriate for

11:14

a funeral for

11:16

a sixteen month old to

11:19

google know the answer to that we

11:23

ended up ah i

11:26

didn't find it online

11:28

but we ended up using the

11:30

song called them linger that i

11:32

think it's an old like girl scout

11:34

camp i know the size sing

11:36

it to my kids oh wow

11:39

i'm a purpose marijuana

11:42

leader know

11:44

that is no longer

11:47

yeah

11:48

oh and that's beautiful did

11:52

you consider not sending

11:54

a gallery

12:03

yes and no

12:06

really early on my grief

12:08

therapists said something like

12:10

your

12:12

first half his

12:15

to fully acknowledge that benji

12:17

is gone

12:24

and so i think there's a certain way in which

12:26

may be i knew that having

12:29

a memorial being with the

12:32

people that knew him

12:37

and

12:55

in a barney eases

12:57

and to live without injury and

12:59

interest the strange social space

13:01

of deep

13:01

greece when every encounter

13:04

and moment of small talk feals risky

13:06

and destroying it i really felt

13:09

like an alien like dragons it

13:11

from another planet and i was suddenly like

13:14

put in this world and like no one

13:18

of my language lake

13:20

understood flakes why

13:23

looks that way

13:34

there's another part as you might enjoy it's called

13:36

am i normal from the ted audio

13:38

collective it's back with a new mini

13:41

series all about the stories

13:43

behind the statistics what

13:45

does adulthood mean in a place where more than three

13:47

quarters of people between ages eighteen

13:49

and thirty five live with their parents

13:52

what defines joy when you live in one of the top

13:54

ranked countries for happiness hear

13:56

from the people that make up every interesting

13:58

data plan listen to and i normal

13:59

wherever you get your podcasts

14:03

this is death sex and money from w

14:05

n y c i'm in a sale after

14:08

her son sudden death doctor

14:11

bonnie chan felt like she'd miss

14:13

something fundamental about greece

14:15

and death despite being a doctor

14:17

specializing in end of life care of

14:20

something she wrote about in the same and cisco chronicle

14:23

the thing about grief that i know now

14:26

it is so lonely she wrote

14:29

i see you beautiful grieving

14:31

patient and i hope to sit

14:33

with you again and this time i name

14:35

myself as your companion

14:37

bonnie wrote that more than six

14:40

months after been death and

14:42

the first days and weeks after he was

14:44

gone work

14:45

is not something she thought

14:47

a lot about so

14:49

i'd say

14:51

in that period we were just

14:54

walk every day for miles

14:57

like we live right near a

14:59

bunch of redwood forests

15:01

and ethically

15:03

drop our older son off at school we would

15:05

just go into the forest than

15:09

just walk and walk and sometimes

15:11

talk but mostly just walk

15:14

in feel small and find

15:17

comfort in feeling small

15:20

and how how did the walks

15:22

in the redwoods start had a to

15:24

and your

15:25

husband comes to come

15:27

to that routine

15:30

i think

15:33

we didn't know what else to do like

15:35

we couldn't stay in

15:37

our house all day and

15:39

we couldn't bear to see people

15:42

and so it was like this where

15:45

can we go where

15:48

no one else is this to

15:51

talk to n

15:54

p r and

15:56

the over lucky their clothes there's tons

15:58

of trails

16:00

he said it made us feel small

16:03

a can you tell me more about that like

16:05

why was that comforting when

16:08

you like broken open

16:10

in that way like feeling things you've

16:12

never felt grief feel

16:14

so singular you

16:16

know and

16:16

you feel so alone

16:20

and

16:22

i think that nature part is that when

16:24

you look up at these like giant tree

16:27

and you're like oh and tiny

16:29

it somehow like puts you in your

16:31

place

16:31

a little bit ah

16:33

you tree have lived

16:36

here for a lot longer than i've been

16:38

around and will

16:41

live long after i die and

16:45

remembering that you are one

16:47

of many who have walked

16:49

this road feel

16:51

comforting

16:54

yeah

16:57

i'm this is kind of of a broad question

17:00

and and serious tell you wouldn't answer

17:02

it today i'm when

17:05

you think about

17:06

how living

17:08

in greece

17:10

changed your marriage

17:12

i'm would

17:14

have you noticed about

17:15

the way you that with greece and the way or hospice

17:21

my god we are by

17:23

far from for than we've ever been

17:26

it is the most terrible uniting

17:29

experience of my life

17:34

and you

17:36

know like it i can't

17:38

imagine

17:40

getting through this with

17:42

that

17:44

rich also walking

17:47

it to

17:49

bonnie's

17:49

husband rich took two and a

17:51

half

17:52

months off work before going back

17:54

to

17:54

his job as a lawyer part time

17:56

the first seven months on he took away

17:58

from work for covered by the queen's then

18:01

two more months were partially pay three state

18:03

disability when

18:05

bonnie felt ready to go back to seeing

18:07

patients she started slowly

18:11

either really lucky that i was able to go

18:13

back to starting a couple half days a week

18:15

so that i couldn't really like can use it as

18:17

a test

18:21

i think with a lot of people

18:22

when when they resume

18:25

working

18:26

responsibilities outside the home

18:28

after decrease i think of

18:30

it as kind of in

18:33

have been able to choose to

18:36

focus am and maybe even

18:38

invite and distractions from your own internal

18:40

monologue about grief and loss

18:43

arm and i'm struck that with your

18:45

work you are going towards

18:48

grief and loss

18:50

with your patience i'm in

18:52

a way that when you're with them and talking

18:54

about their health like you can't look away

18:56

from it i'm

18:58

it that was that comforting

19:01

or was it

19:02

overwhelming to think about having to

19:04

look

19:04

at and of life

19:06

and death and

19:13

i mean that was the balance re like it felt

19:15

like it could go either way like i

19:18

certainly was really worried that

19:21

the know having

19:22

to talk about death

19:24

that in grief would bring

19:27

stuff up for me that wouldn't be appropriate

19:30

isn't that setting where i was the doctor

19:33

and not the case in san

19:35

there was something about

19:39

being

19:39

with my patience again

19:42

other people who are grieving that

19:44

like the idea

19:47

of that felt

19:47

like so welcoming place

19:51

oh be with

19:53

people who understand

19:55

me even though they don't know they do

20:00

a man like you know the

20:02

other piece that's probably obvious is

20:04

fake

20:06

i'm working with a group of people

20:08

who are highly trained and

20:10

skilled at being with people

20:12

in greece

20:13

and so

20:17

my colleagues have just been

20:20

more than i could ask for in terms

20:22

of a safe landing spot for

20:24

how i'm doing on any given day

20:27

and ban like

20:29

we generally will have

20:31

a d brief after a family

20:33

meeting in you know one

20:35

thing i worried about would be that lake

20:38

i meet with a piece and then i'd

20:41

really be connecting with them but i wouldn't

20:43

feel like it's appropriate to disclose what

20:46

what i what

20:47

i had been through so

20:49

how would i express empathy

20:53

without

20:54

making it about me and

20:56

i found that it

20:59

was actually pretty easy for me to

21:01

say things like

21:04

you know in my experience of tragedy

21:06

or

21:08

i thought a lot about

21:10

loss for the bigger questions

21:13

and and then say whatever i want to say

21:16

at an obviously the patient won't know what i'm talking

21:18

about because it's so bleak

21:21

but my teammate was with me

21:23

or you will and then in

21:25

our db time afterwards make

21:28

their

21:28

not shy about saying like a bonnie

21:30

do you wanna talk about that moment like

21:33

what was that like for you what

21:36

did

21:36

it bring up and you

21:38

know and then i can choose to save

21:41

i want to talk about it or not and when i do

21:43

like they're just

21:46

able to the doctor

21:48

me you know

21:52

have you ever told a patient specifically what

21:54

happened and your family you

21:58

know

22:00

i've never told someone

22:02

bet

22:04

i had one piece on

22:06

that new mean that we knew each

22:08

other before i took

22:10

my leave

22:11

and

22:13

we had a follow visit

22:15

a couple months ago and

22:19

i felt like we had a pretty good

22:21

relationship and so i was an

22:25

assertive debating whether i'd say anything

22:28

because i've been gone for nine months

22:31

and on

22:35

the first thing he said when he saw me was

22:38

oh doctor ten i read

22:39

your article in the chronicle

22:42

and i had this like wave

22:44

of relief because the new you

22:46

know i didn't have to make a choice like

22:49

you know we did everything we needed to do and

22:51

then like it really lead us into

22:53

a whole

22:54

other chain of conversation

22:56

that was more

22:58

existential and nature

23:00

are talking about life and death than

23:03

meaning ah i'm

23:06

and i

23:09

was just like feeling very moved

23:11

by the freedom it gave me

23:14

on to have

23:16

that conversation and then

23:20

at the end of the visit he looked at

23:22

me and said

23:25

i love you doctor ten

23:28

oh

23:31

and i said

23:33

i love you too and

23:38

it was just this like your

23:41

are

23:42

powerful moments of

23:45

just like seeing

23:46

and being seen

23:48

that trend setting they think

23:51

lakes what we'd expect

23:53

adding a new direction like

23:55

this and

23:57

so on oh

24:00

no that's really

24:02

sat with me

24:05

has so beautiful

24:07

how old a man flush him

24:11

in his sixties

24:18

take it

24:19

to say something so

24:21

i'm

24:23

seeing

24:25

you

24:26

without

24:28

making you belabor your

24:30

loss

24:32

like a see how the beautiful

24:34

and i'm and with a risk for him to say and

24:36

in that way in a

24:38

doctor's appointments adding

24:40

he no such as

24:43

of they say could have been really awful but

24:47

i think we were completely

24:50

attuned you know it felt just

24:52

great to me and it felt just straight to

24:54

me to respond in kind

24:56

didn't

25:02

it's now been over a year since

25:04

then she's death and for bonnie sam

25:07

lean may geller routines

25:09

have started to resume

25:11

my older son back in school

25:13

like you start to feel all the gel

25:15

goal of like long

25:18

parenthood young or

25:20

like working mom was ah

25:24

and like who's doing pickup truck

25:26

bombs taekwondo you know pathetic

25:28

and hundred and like going

25:31

into the office today or not and and

25:34

there's there's a part of me that find

25:36

that very comforting rate is like a reminder

25:38

of like of rhythms of old

25:40

life when like things were kind of normal

25:43

and then

25:44

there's also a part of me that's like always like

25:47

oh wait no net

25:49

that's not your life like you

25:52

have

25:54

energy

25:57

to talk to them see

26:01

not really

26:04

i think i'm just turning a corner

26:08

where i'm

26:10

trying to figure out my relationship

26:12

to him now

26:17

like for the first many months like

26:20

seeing

26:20

his picture or watching

26:23

a video which is be so a

26:25

block it is that

26:27

i couldn't i couldn't do it

26:29

and so

26:31

i think

26:33

now that the edge

26:36

of it all is off that least a little

26:38

bowl and like just

26:41

starting to figure out what

26:43

it looks like for

26:45

me to like live

26:47

with him and his and

26:49

thin and

26:50

co yeah

26:53

we don't have that

26:56

relationship yet

27:06

not

27:06

bonnie chan is a palliative

27:08

care doctor living in oakland california

27:11

for siemenses go chronicle essay was titles

27:14

as a doctor i thought i was familiar

27:16

with death until it came to nice

27:19

as a link to

27:20

it and are shown

27:21

that sex and

27:23

money is a listener supported production

27:26

of w and my see studios in new york's

27:28

this episode was produced by zoe as

27:30

he lay and liliana maria percy release

27:33

the rest of our team is the first sir thomas

27:36

and andrew done are in turn

27:38

is every mckay the reverend john

27:40

to lure and steve louis read our theme music

27:43

the show is on instagram ah death

27:45

sex honey and i'm at and a sales

27:47

pitch he i see as

27:50

and subscribe to our weekly newsletter

27:51

if you haven't already i write a

27:53

weekly as say there and as he told

27:55

you are show isn't transition

27:58

here

27:58

at that you and me see

27:59

during updates about the future of the show

28:02

and our newsletter home with other

28:03

things that human are thinking about fine

28:06

up to get it every week at that sex

28:07

money dot org

28:10

thank you to say or above hoffman

28:13

in san francisco california for being a member

28:15

of the facts in london and supporting us

28:17

with a monthly donation we couldn't

28:19

see this without you sarah bath and

28:21

all of our to sing and there's something

28:25

on he told me there's never really

28:27

a right thing to say to someone

28:29

who is grieving but the key is to

28:31

keep saying something

28:34

i think most pugs

28:36

to bald eagles persistence

28:38

without you know like you're

28:41

so out

28:41

of your head so like you know right

28:43

back to cards sometimes

28:45

i am on taxi and for mike was

28:48

a move wrote on

28:51

an offer of i

28:53

think suitors had

28:55

so many people in our allies for golf

28:57

club

29:04

and normal for he he he he

29:06

t