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This

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the New Yorker radio hour. Listen, wherever

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0:24

Hello, hi It's

0:27

wonderful to see you Thank

0:29

you nice to see you Anna, thank

0:32

you for your time again I

0:34

Don't know how you think back on on

0:37

the conversation we had back in 2014 in your

0:40

home But

0:43

as time has passed

0:46

I've come to realize like it's

0:49

one of the most Treasured

0:51

encounters I've had in my work and

0:53

in my life Really? Yeah,

0:56

and and for a number of reasons

0:58

I think like

1:00

You let me into your home. I started

1:03

asking you very probing questions

1:05

about things you had written about in your

1:08

memoir, but maybe things that you didn't

1:10

talk about at length with journalists often and

1:13

I

1:14

can hear back in that tape all

1:17

the moments where you were making choices

1:19

about How

1:23

honest to be, you know, that's so interesting

1:25

to hear

1:31

This is how I started my recent video

1:33

call with Ellen Burstyn as we were talking again

1:36

while she sat in her upper Manhattan apartment This

1:38

is death sex and money the show about

1:41

the things we think about a lot and need to talk about more I'm

1:44

Anna sale. We shared that first conversation I had with

1:46

Ellen in 2015 in

1:49

our podcast feed last week She

1:52

was 81 then last December Ellen turned 90

1:54

years old when

1:57

we spoke

1:59

spoke recently, a new dog was

2:02

curled at her feet. Her

2:04

name is Carrie. She's right

2:07

here beside me. She

2:09

lifts her head. You talking about

2:11

me? Yeah. She's

2:14

a King Charles Cavalier and

2:16

a poodle. She's very smart. And

2:19

she's

2:20

remarkably friendly.

2:23

When we go out for a walk, she wants

2:25

to say hello to everybody. She

2:27

knows all the doorman. She has her

2:30

favorites that she

2:32

goes wild when she

2:34

sees them. She just polite.

2:37

Discerning.

2:38

So we have a very good

2:40

time together.

2:43

Carrie came into Ellen's life

2:45

midway into pandemic isolation.

2:48

Ellen's last dog had died just before

2:50

COVID. And after about a year of

2:52

mourning, she decided she was ready

2:54

for a new one. She went online

2:57

and started looking at dog pictures and

2:59

then she saw her. And then I saw

3:02

her name was Carrie,

3:03

spelled K-E-R-R-I, which

3:06

happened to be my first stage

3:08

name

3:09

when I came to New York and

3:11

I named myself Carrie Flynn,

3:14

dancing in a nightclub, spelled K-E-R-R-I.

3:18

So I said, obviously, it's

3:20

fake truth or something. Wow.

3:25

What did you notice about what

3:27

it was like to turn 90?

3:30

Well

3:31

I hate to sound

3:34

like I'm bragging, but

3:37

I'm still working.

3:39

I'm in good shape. I'm

3:42

having a very good time. I

3:44

just sold a book to a publisher

3:46

and I'm writing a book

3:49

about my favorite poems. You

3:52

are. Yeah. I wonder if I

3:54

could turn this around and show you my

3:58

table and see if I can do this.

4:00

Hold on. Oh,

4:03

I can see this table full of, I

4:06

guess, of pieces of paper. Of

4:09

poems.

4:09

Of poems. And they're arranged

4:11

all out on this folding table in front of a window.

4:14

And are you moving them around to figure

4:16

out the right order? Yeah. Yeah. Where

4:18

did the idea come from, to do a book

4:20

about your favorite poems?

4:23

I had done a book,

4:27

just a minute, it's

4:28

right here. A

4:34

couple of years ago, I

4:37

tried to do a book about

4:39

my favorite poems. You showed this

4:41

to me, I believe. Is this the

4:43

one, and you read the Mary Oliver poem from

4:45

it. It's a scrapbook, kind of, right?

4:48

Yeah. Yeah. And

4:50

so I, okay. Yeah. So, and

4:52

my agents didn't think it was a good idea.

4:55

And then time went by, and I

4:58

changed agents.

5:00

And

5:02

my new agent said, we

5:05

know you love poetry, so we thought of

5:08

doing a book about your

5:09

favorite poems. And I said,

5:12

oh, I've already done one. I

5:16

brought it out. And they

5:18

said, oh, and I'm writing

5:21

my

5:22

favorite poems, and

5:25

what I like about them, and how they

5:27

affected me, and

5:30

what I find interesting about the

5:34

poems, and

5:35

kind of

5:38

what I learned from them. At

5:41

the moment, I'm calling it my orchard

5:44

of poems. Oh, that's

5:47

nice. Yeah. If

5:49

you were to say today, a poem that

5:52

comes to mind, that speaks to you,

5:56

what's the poem?

5:58

Oh, it is so tight. table

6:00

full.

6:04

By the way, before I answer

6:06

that, I wanted to go back to something

6:08

you said at the opening about how I

6:10

was wrestling with being

6:12

truthful about

6:15

my memoir, was it? Well,

6:17

just the questions about, I don't

6:20

know if you were wrestling. It was

6:22

more like I felt like you

6:24

were making choices

6:27

to be honest. I

6:29

didn't feel like at any point you were evading, but

6:31

you were continually

6:33

choosing to keep, to

6:35

stay in it, is how

6:37

it felt and how it feels when I listened

6:40

back to that tape.

6:41

Yeah.

6:43

Well, I

6:45

do feel that why

6:49

bother talking if you're

6:50

not going to be

6:55

truthful.

7:01

Okay, this is the poem that came

7:03

to mind. Let's see if I still remember

7:05

it. I haven't read it in a while. I

7:08

drank of every vine. The

7:10

last upon the last

7:12

was like the first.

7:14

I came upon no wine,

7:17

so wonderful as thirst.

7:20

So feed the grape and bean

7:23

to the vintner and the monger.

7:26

I'll lie down lean in

7:29

my thirst and my hunger.

7:33

Oh. Whoa.

7:37

That's Malay.

7:38

She

7:41

was early on my favorite poem.

7:43

How did you come to poetry? Was

7:45

it an extension of

7:47

learning to memorize lines

7:49

or a separate

7:51

process? You know, my

7:54

original name was Edna Rachey-Lulie,

7:58

and I wrote a poem.

7:59

I met in high school that

8:03

I wasn't sure was any good.

8:07

And I gave it to the smartest boy in

8:09

class to see what he thought.

8:12

And he said, well,

8:15

just because your name is Edna, doesn't mean you have

8:17

to copy your style. And I said,

8:19

Edna who?

8:21

And he said, Edna St. Vincent Millay.

8:23

I think he was giving you a compliment is

8:26

what he was trying to say.

8:27

Yeah. And

8:32

I started reading her poetry

8:34

and I just got hooked

8:37

on poetry forever. There's

8:39

something about

8:41

something being said

8:45

in metaphor and

8:48

rhyme

8:49

and rhythm

8:52

that

8:54

penetrates deeper.

8:58

I don't know. I feel like when

9:02

we read the metaphor and we know that it's

9:04

referring to something else and

9:06

we have to conjure that in our mind what

9:09

it's referring to, it's

9:10

coming from us then.

9:13

So we're

9:16

a party to the arts.

9:20

That's what I find.

9:27

That's really beautifully said.

9:33

So to go back, when I asked you about what

9:35

it's been like to turn 90, it

9:38

sounds like you've been busy. Turning 90

9:41

has been busy

9:42

for you. I had

9:45

a party and I invited

9:47

all my people

9:49

closest to me in

9:51

life,

9:52

including Windsor and California. And

9:55

I said, I'm sorry, it's gonna cost

9:56

plain fabric to have to come.

9:59

And they did.

10:02

And it was just the best

10:04

party anybody ever went to. I

10:06

said, no presents. Your

10:09

presents spelled the other way is enough. And

10:13

anything that

10:14

you want to bring in terms

10:17

of a story or a song.

10:19

So a lot of people sang

10:22

and played the piano

10:25

and

10:27

brought poems. And it

10:29

was just

10:31

like the best

10:34

live review

10:38

that I've ever been to.

10:40

And it was in my own home with

10:43

my friends. It was just great. I

10:45

loved it. Lovely.

10:47

And is there a song that sticks out from

10:49

that review celebrating

10:51

your 90 years in your house? Like when you

10:53

think about a moment, a perfect moment from

10:55

that evening?

10:57

Oh, I have a friend named Mimi

10:59

Friedman who

11:00

wrote a song about

11:02

me. And I made her sing

11:04

it three different times as other

11:06

people came in.

11:14

The world receives

11:16

a stellar kiss on

11:20

a chilly December 7 day

11:24

in Detroit in 1932. A

11:30

green birth and a race.

11:36

As Jack's little baby sister

11:38

grew,

11:40

her star shine could not

11:42

be ignored.

11:45

As the Michigan State Fair,

11:48

she poked a gig with

11:50

a little motor company called

11:53

for.

11:54

That's wonderful that she wrote a song about

11:57

you. And then she kept on. You made her sing

11:59

it three times. Again and

12:01

again. Well as

12:03

new people came. Of course. Yeah, of course.

12:06

Gotta share it.

12:10

Is there anything you've noticed

12:12

about the shift from being in your 80s to

12:14

being in your 90s that you feel in your body

12:16

that is... Oh,

12:17

yes. Oh, definitely.

12:25

My digestion isn't quite what

12:27

it

12:28

used to be, you know.

12:31

My balance isn't as wonderful

12:33

as it once was. When

12:35

I walk my dog, I'm

12:37

using a stick now.

12:41

Which I find very helpful. But

12:44

my energy's good.

12:47

My memory isn't as brilliant

12:50

as it once was. I mean, early

12:53

on I could read a play

12:55

four times and pretty much know it.

12:57

Not the case anymore. I have

12:59

to do a little more, you know, drilling.

13:03

And

13:05

my long-term memory seems to me fine.

13:08

Short-term...

13:10

I've...

13:12

Did I take those pills?

13:14

Right there,

13:15

does that mean I took them or didn't take them? You

13:18

know? Yeah. A lot of that.

13:21

Yeah. But that's

13:23

not so bad. No.

13:25

So when

13:28

we talked in 2014,

13:32

your son I believe was in his 50s. He's

13:34

in his 60s now, is that right? Yes.

13:38

What's it like

13:40

between mother and son? Have you noticed

13:42

any change in the way that you two care

13:44

for one another?

13:45

Well,

13:47

I say things like, I'm going to die,

13:49

get used to it. He says, don't say it, don't say

13:51

it.

13:54

I

13:57

don't want to hear it. No, I don't have to get

13:59

used to it.

14:00

Oh, so

14:02

you talk about it, but you talk about it in jest and

14:04

then move on. Uh-huh. Well,

14:07

I wouldn't talk about it seriously, but he's

14:12

not willing. His wife

14:14

went through her

14:15

mother's death just a couple

14:18

years ago, and it was very,

14:20

very hard for her. And I think he

14:22

was, you

14:24

know, thinking, oh, God, what's it going to

14:26

be for me?

14:27

I hope it's not going

14:29

to be as traumatic.

14:31

Yeah.

14:32

You, you said to me in 2014, you said, I know I've

14:37

been a successful actor. I don't

14:40

know if I've been a successful person

14:42

yet.

14:43

Do you still feel like that? Um,

14:46

I obviously have not been successful

14:48

at romantic relationships. I

14:50

don't know if that's obvious. I mean, you've,

14:53

you've had more than one marriage, but maybe

14:56

they unfolded the way they were

14:58

supposed to. When my

15:02

selection

15:03

ability seems flawed, I

15:05

just don't seem to be good at it.

15:08

However, I

15:09

built my own kind of family

15:11

with

15:13

people I love. I

15:15

was in the grocery store once

15:18

in the neighborhood where we lived, where we shop,

15:20

and a woman said, you're Ellen Burstyn,

15:22

aren't you? I said, yes, figuring. She was

15:24

going to tell me she let my movies know. She

15:27

said, you're just mother. You

15:29

know, he paints houses.

15:32

And she said, I found that

15:35

when he finished painting my house, I

15:37

was making up jobs to keep

15:39

him coming back because

15:42

he's just so sunny, a

15:45

personality that people

15:47

want to have them around. I

15:50

love that.

15:53

Sunny is the best word for it.

15:57

And I'm deeply pleased.

16:00

that with all of my various

16:04

gentlemen in my life, that

16:07

I somehow managed to bring up a

16:11

good man, a good father, a good

16:14

husband, that's a

16:16

comfort to me. Can

16:21

I ask you a bit of advice now that I'm a

16:23

middle-aged

16:24

interviewer instead of a young interviewer?

16:29

What I have noticed about my

16:32

creative

16:34

spark

16:37

is that as I've been doing this for more years

16:39

and there's more things that I have done, it's

16:43

a little bit harder to come by that sense of

16:46

adventure that comes from novelty,

16:49

which was so much a part of my early

16:52

creative hunger was like,

16:55

what will it be like if I get to do this and

16:57

how do I hustle in order to get to try this?

17:01

As I mentioned, our show is almost 10 years old.

17:04

I've noticed that I've been

17:06

doing this for longer and as I think about what

17:08

does it mean to have a career where you're

17:10

doing what you've been doing for

17:13

a while?

17:16

Have you had to

17:18

change how you think about what the

17:20

fuel is that you're tapping into to

17:22

be interested, to

17:25

not be bored? Well,

17:29

what comes to mind

17:32

immediately is

17:34

going in a new direction,

17:38

talking to people that you haven't talked

17:40

to

17:41

that are different

17:43

and you're wondering why they're different,

17:46

how they can be that different from you. That

17:51

seemed to me to be interesting. Does that interest

17:53

you at all? What I hear you saying is

17:56

I

17:57

think my question presumed

17:59

that I have to.

17:59

to like let go of novelty because

18:02

I'm middle-aged and you're saying you

18:04

have to keep finding

18:07

the ways to keep learning, to keep

18:09

finding the things you haven't encountered

18:11

yet and to stay open to curiosity.

18:14

More novelty. More novelty, yeah.

18:17

More novel than ever. Yeah. Because

18:20

it's easy to get

18:22

comfy

18:22

in middle-age and

18:26

stay in your ruts maybe. You

18:30

know, I love this story.

18:33

I spoke somewhere at an

18:35

event in

18:38

a big ballroom. I don't remember what it was for

18:40

and afterwards this woman came up

18:42

to me. I've told this on television

18:43

before so I'm repeating

18:45

myself. The woman came up to me and she

18:48

said, okay, I know your age.

18:50

What's your secret?

18:52

And I said, I

18:54

don't drink. I don't eat meat.

18:57

I exercise. I

18:59

don't eat drugs. I

19:01

live healthily. And she

19:03

went, you don't drink? Curling

19:14

her lip.

19:15

What a horrible thought that

19:17

was. And I

19:19

thought, there it is, you know.

19:23

If you want to change, you have to change your

19:25

habits.

19:25

It's

19:28

your habits that keep you stuck in

19:31

the same place you've been in for

19:33

a long, long time.

19:35

You know, so what habit

19:38

could you change? Oh,

19:41

I really, I feel

19:43

called to think about that more, Ellen.

19:45

That's one that's going to stick with

19:46

me. Oh,

19:49

huh. Or

19:52

what are you a little afraid

19:54

of?

19:55

Oh yeah, there's lots of things I'm a lot afraid

19:57

of.

19:58

Oh, well there it is. good area

20:01

to explore. Yeah. No?

20:07

Ellen Burstyn, thank you for spending

20:09

time with me again. I always, you

20:12

leave me changed.

20:13

Oh, really?

20:15

Yeah. Thank you. It

20:17

was wonderful talking to you. I love the

20:19

question you asked. You're

20:22

a deep person. I can feel it.

20:27

That's Ellen Burstyn. She

20:30

spoke with me from her apartment in Manhattan

20:32

just a few weeks ago. This episode

20:34

was produced by Liliana Maria Percy

20:36

Ruiz, Accie Yellow Duke, and me.

20:39

I'm Anna Sale, and this is Death, Sex,

20:41

and Money from WNYC.