0:03

Listener supported WNYC

0:06

Studios. Sophia

0:08

Sinclair

0:10

grew up Rastafari in Jamaica, but

0:12

to find her true self, she had to leave both

0:14

behind. I'm Kai Wright, and this week

0:17

on Notes from America, a poet takes us back

0:19

to her homeland. Listen

0:21

wherever you get your podcasts.

0:24

Hey, it's Anna. Before we get

0:26

to our new episode, I have some

0:28

significant, though incomplete,

0:31

news to share from Death, Sex, and Money

0:33

headquarters. There's a big

0:35

change coming for our show.

0:38

Since we launched in 2014, we've

0:40

made it with WNYC, the public radio

0:42

station in New York, which like

0:44

a lot of podcast and digital media

0:47

companies, is facing a really difficult

0:49

budget situation.

0:51

Because of that, they have to make cuts,

0:54

and we've learned that our show is affected by those

0:56

cuts. But what exactly

0:59

that will mean, we aren't

1:01

sure yet. Here's what I

1:03

can tell you. The way we

1:05

have been making Death, Sex, and Money is

1:08

ending at the end of this year.

1:10

We don't know yet what that's going to mean

1:12

for you, our listeners.

1:14

I'm working with WNYC to talk

1:16

to potential new partners or production homes

1:18

for the show. Right now, though,

1:21

that is all I know. I will

1:23

share updates with you about the future of our show

1:25

as I know them.

1:26

Until then, we are continuing

1:29

to make Death, Sex, and Money through the end of this year

1:31

at WNYC, and the team

1:33

and I, we're supporting each other through

1:35

this uncertainty. They are

1:37

such amazing colleagues, friends,

1:40

and audio professionals. And

1:42

I'm also struck by how you have

1:44

helped train us for this time

1:47

of uncertainty by

1:48

sharing your stories of making it through transitions,

1:51

some you didn't see coming. The

1:54

team and I are in one of those life

1:56

moments where you can't see around

1:58

the corner.

3:17

the

3:27

show somebody

4:00

Sorry, sorry. You may already

4:02

know him if you've watched his show, How

4:04

To with John Wilson, which just finished

4:07

its third and final season.

4:09

If you haven't seen it, try

4:11

it. I find it makes me appreciate

4:14

all the tiny, weird

4:16

moments unfolding in regular

4:18

old daily life from the wildly

4:20

absurd to the achingly sweet.

4:23

John Wilson notices it all.

4:26

Is this your living room or is this an office

4:28

space where you are right now?

4:30

This is my living room. This

4:34

is where I spend so

4:36

much of my time. I

4:39

spend a disgusting amount of time in this room.

4:41

Disgusting amount. Yeah. I

4:44

mean, you know, if there was like a, you

4:47

know, it's like when your phone tells you how much time

4:49

you spend on it, you know, I would, I wouldn't

4:51

like to know how much time I spend in this room.

4:54

What's the poster behind you? Strosik.

4:57

It's like my favorite

4:59

Herzog movie. I don't know if you've seen it. Yeah.

5:03

Actually, I haven't seen it,

5:05

but I have heard a lot about Strosik.

5:08

There was a time in my life when

5:10

I was surrounded by film students or

5:12

people who wanted to be film

5:13

students. And so I have had

5:15

the entire plot of Strosik

5:17

described to me a few times.

5:20

I got this poster

5:22

maybe seven, eight years ago.

5:25

And I made the frame myself.

5:29

But it's. Oh, you did? Yeah.

5:32

It's very like, yeah, it

5:35

looks okay, but it's actually very poorly made,

5:37

but you can't really tell.

5:41

So John Wilson is the kind of guy who

5:44

not only decorates his apartment with vintage

5:46

posters of the art he loves, but

5:49

he also hand builds the frames

5:51

to display them in. I've

5:54

been thinking

5:54

about hobbies lately

5:56

because in my life, I'm just starting

5:58

to feel adorable. open to

6:00

having a little more time to explore

6:03

the things I might be interested in, mostly

6:05

enabled by the fact that my kids are just

6:08

old enough to put their own shoes on and

6:10

make themselves their own snacks. And

6:13

I have this question, what

6:15

do I do for fun? John

6:18

Wilson has built his life around

6:20

his hobbies.

6:22

They're the raw material of his show. It's

6:24

hard to explain if you haven't seen it, but his

6:26

show How To on HBO, it's

6:29

this beautiful collage of

6:31

micro moments caught on camera

6:34

while walking around New York City, mostly

6:36

the unfancy grimy parts.

6:38

He tracks down wackadoo

6:41

characters he finds on the internet and

6:43

meets them in person. And he treats

6:45

people with dignity and takes

6:47

their interests seriously. And they

6:50

are usually even more obsessed with

6:52

things than he is. I

6:53

do feel strongly about my own work and

6:56

film and stuff. But other

6:58

than that, you know, I wish that I could feel

7:01

as intensely as other people do sometimes.

7:05

Interesting, like an enviousness

7:07

of like their clarity of purpose.

7:10

Yeah, yeah,

7:12

like, I mean, I guess I

7:14

do

7:15

consider myself, you know,

7:17

as an eccentric

7:19

in in in certain

7:21

ways. And I like

7:24

to

7:26

I like to be around other

7:28

people that have that quality,

7:32

you know, whatever their obsession

7:34

is.

7:35

When did you like come upon that that was something

7:38

that was fun for you to document

7:40

to talk to people about their very specific

7:44

passions that you you were obsessed

7:46

with finding those kinds of people?

7:49

Um, I think

7:51

that

7:52

a lot of the work that I did for money

7:55

throughout my 20s, you know, there was a

7:57

lot of like commercial video and And

8:00

we would be interviewing these corporate

8:02

clients, you know, talking

8:05

about a specific product or, you

8:09

know, some really dry conventions

8:12

that we're at. And

8:14

I just, more

8:17

than anything, wanted to get to know these people,

8:19

but it was just this, it was just forbidden,

8:21

you know, like in this

8:23

environment. And

8:25

I, you know, simultaneously

8:28

was just like watching all

8:30

of these like really amazing documentaries

8:33

that were kind of shaping my aesthetic

8:36

in a way.

8:37

And

8:39

you know, I wanted to, I

8:41

wanted my own work and I

8:44

wanted the art to be about like,

8:47

just like exploring the nuances

8:51

in all of these people that usually don't get

8:53

the microphone.

8:55

And as John's paying attention to all

8:57

that, he's documenting it on

8:59

camera and with extensive

9:02

notebooks that were piled up on a bookshelf

9:04

in his living room.

9:06

I have two different kinds of journals.

9:09

I have

9:11

a long form and a short form

9:13

journal.

9:14

The long form is more

9:17

just, you know, me describing

9:19

an event or just, you

9:22

know, with the really

9:23

granular details of

9:26

something

9:27

that happened to me and, you know,

9:29

something that I may not cover in the

9:31

short form calendars. And

9:34

then, yeah, the other books

9:36

are short form calendars that I

9:38

document all of the,

9:43

you know, just the raw facts of where

9:45

I went and who I went with to

9:48

a specific place. Uh-huh. How

9:51

long have you kept those short form journals? I've

9:55

been doing the short form journal

9:57

since about 2007.

9:59

And so I could tell

10:02

you what I did any

10:03

single day from now until then. So

10:11

you were like mid-college when

10:13

you started?

10:14

Yeah, yeah. It wasn't as comprehensive

10:17

when I first started it. It was just like a single

10:20

kind of line item every single day. But

10:22

now it's like everything down to the,

10:25

you know, a trip to the grocery store or like where

10:27

I went to go get coffee, stuff

10:30

like that. But, you know, most

10:32

of it's like horribly boring, you know?

10:34

Why do you do this every single day?

10:37

I don't know. I

10:39

don't know why I do any stuff.

10:42

If I had questioned why I do that,

10:45

then I wouldn't have it. If I had questioned

10:47

why I'm filming something

10:50

like

10:51

boring, then I wouldn't

10:53

have filmed it, you know? And all

10:55

this stuff that I do, I just like

10:58

to have it just in case I need it in the future

11:01

because like the purpose

11:04

of this stuff begins to mutate over

11:06

time and it may be

11:08

useful especially like when you're trying to

11:11

piece together kind of a

11:13

story or a memory of something.

11:16

Do you find it soothing?

11:19

To do what?

11:21

To write down in the short journal. So like when you

11:23

get to that part of your day, is it like a satisfying

11:25

exercise?

11:26

No, I kind of hate it. I

11:29

like, you know, I'm

11:33

like, I wish I could stop but I just

11:35

would feel like a failure if I did.

11:38

But I, yeah, I just can't stop for some

11:40

reason.

11:41

I want to ask you about one of your other

11:43

habits and that is looking

11:46

at Craigslist. Oh, yeah.

11:49

Like when did that start for you when you

11:51

were like, oh, there's ideas in here. I

11:54

don't just need to go here when I have a need for

11:56

a couch. There's something here.

11:59

I think probably pretty early on

12:02

in my life on the internet, you

12:05

know, like Craigslist is

12:07

just like this

12:10

universal connector and,

12:12

you know, I realized

12:15

that it's like, it's either the first

12:17

or last resort for

12:20

people trying to do something. And

12:24

I think that

12:28

creates a really unique crop

12:30

of people trying to interact with one

12:32

another. Especially on a free Craigslist

12:35

because, you know, like,

12:37

this is the step between like

12:42

selling something and just

12:44

completely throwing something away. Like

12:47

people are willing to take time out of their day

12:50

just to make sure that this thing isn't destroyed

12:53

or unloved. And

12:56

that's why I like to spend so

12:58

much time on there even though I don't

13:00

always go to pick up stuff. But sometimes

13:03

I do and it sometimes

13:07

changes my life. Huh.

13:11

Wow. Do

13:12

you have a laptop nearby?

13:14

Yeah. Can

13:16

you

13:17

go on Craigslist with me? Can I, can

13:19

I, can we do a Craigslist look together?

13:22

Sure. Because I, I have

13:24

to say like, to me

13:27

Craigslist like is so overstimulating

13:30

like just all of the words I find it

13:32

the opposite of what I would want to do with

13:34

my downtime.

13:35

Oh yeah. Even

13:37

though

13:37

I'm sure there are story ideas in there. I'm

13:39

just like, oh my God, I'm overwhelmed.

13:41

I can't even, I don't even know where to go. So

13:45

when you go to Craigslist, like

13:48

where do you start?

13:49

Can you just walk me through? Yeah. I

13:52

mean, I just, yeah, I just could go to, you know,

13:55

New York, Craigslist. I just go

13:57

to the, I just click on free. right

14:00

under for sale.

14:02

Are you there too? I'm there, yeah. Okay,

14:05

so do you see the very first post is for

14:09

a hundred, a listing for 100 pounds

14:12

of candy. Do you see that? And

14:16

then what do you, is that one that you would click

14:18

on to be like, how did this

14:20

come to be? Yeah, you know, what's

14:22

the story? It

14:23

seems like there's also a bunch of

14:25

medicine,

14:26

mixed

14:30

into it too.

14:31

The pictures are

14:34

really interesting. But

14:36

it's like, that's

14:37

another thing is that I usually just

14:39

take the screenshots, you know, and I have a

14:41

really large archive of those, because this

14:44

is all one of a kind imagery, you

14:46

know, you're not going to find this

14:49

anywhere else. And

14:51

it's, it disappears so quickly. And

14:54

there's something that I really love about how

14:56

ephemeral that is.

14:58

Oh, so you take a screenshot on your

15:00

computer and you save it away. What

15:02

and then how do you label them?

15:05

I label them all

15:07

by I have I have multiple

15:09

bins of, you know, like folders.

15:13

Like one will be, you know,

15:18

like, tiny houses that people

15:20

make for pets that they give away. Or

15:25

which there are a lot of. And then there's

15:27

another folder of like, of

15:29

things that have to do with

15:31

breakups or relationships. Like

15:34

people giving away something because their boyfriend

15:36

cheated on them or getting rid of

15:38

a

15:39

Jar Jar Binks costume because their

15:41

husband hates it

15:43

or something like that.

15:46

But yeah, I started to notice I started

15:48

to notice patterns after a while and I lump everything

15:51

into the appropriate

15:53

bins. I'm seeing Do you see the plastic

15:55

fork? I do. Yeah, that

15:57

that one I actually took a screenshot of that earlier today.

15:59

Oh, you did? You fucking

16:02

seen it? I'm

16:04

honestly on it like every

16:08

half hour, you know, if I'm home.

16:11

And I, you know,

16:13

like my people joke

16:15

that like, you know, it's

16:18

easier to get in contact with me on here sometimes

16:20

than it is like through email. Wow.

16:24

Is it always New York?

16:27

Yeah.

16:31

Is it because you want to make sure you

16:33

could follow up in person somehow

16:35

if there's an interesting

16:38

story to pursue? Yeah,

16:41

I always like to just

16:43

keep my options open like that. It

16:45

feels like I feel the closest

16:47

to New York when I'm when I'm looking

16:50

at this sometimes when I'm not actively out on the street. This

16:52

is like, this is the

16:54

other New York that is like,

16:56

you know, operating just

16:59

on a different kind of layer. I

17:02

just found a really funny one. Do you see portable

17:05

basketball hoop in fair

17:07

condition? It's

17:09

just the most pitiful

17:12

picture of this basketball hoop. It's

17:16

on its side. It's like covered in

17:18

moss. It says it's

17:21

in fair condition, which is just so funny.

17:24

I love when people are very descriptive

17:27

about the object, you know, like

17:30

beautiful coffee table

17:33

or, you know, just like ravishing

17:36

portrait of a, you know, a Rottweiler.

17:38

Do you have

17:41

really good descriptors,

17:42

like, since you're such a student of your Craigslist

17:44

descriptor? Yeah,

17:47

I mean, I try to, you know, just

17:50

have just the facts. But

17:53

what I love is when when people like

17:56

a lot of people when they post something on free

17:58

Craigslist will will.

18:01

They'll immediately be angry in

18:04

the post and they'll say

18:06

something like, don't ask

18:08

me any questions, like

18:12

as if you are spending money, you know? Because

18:17

people will usually, in my experience,

18:19

I'll put something on for free.

18:21

I was getting rid of a chandelier that

18:24

my old landlord had hooked

18:28

up, but it was just really big and I just didn't want it

18:31

on the first floor.

18:33

And I'm just giving it away for free and all

18:36

these people have all these questions about the year of it and

18:38

what the maker is and I'm just like, I

18:40

totally identify with the people who

18:43

have that disclaimer on their posts

18:45

now. It's like, don't ask me questions.

18:48

This is free.

18:50

You're not spending money, just

18:52

take it or not. If they have personal

18:55

questions for me, that's fine, but I don't know

18:57

anything about the maker of the chandelier. A

18:59

lot of people put like curb alerts on

19:03

Craigslist and it'll just be like,

19:05

I'll post those every now and then.

19:09

If there's something interesting on the street

19:11

somewhere, you give the address. I

19:13

took a funny screenshot of one where

19:16

there was like a full rack of baby

19:18

back ribs on the sidewalk and

19:21

it was like... On

19:25

a plate? No, no, no. Or

19:27

just on the sidewalk. It was still in the plastic that you... It

19:33

seemed like a pre-seasoned one

19:36

from the grocery store. And

19:40

it's this really funny picture of the ribs,

19:42

but then it just says like,

19:46

these ribs are

19:49

on Stuyvesant

19:51

and whatever.

19:52

Do not ask me any questions about

19:55

the ribs. I am not the owner of the ribs. I'm

19:58

just letting you know where they are.

19:59

It's just funny to inconvenience yourself

20:01

while trying to

20:04

help other people. It's

20:10

just like a really complex impulse

20:12

to do that kind of stuff. I

20:14

feel like that's very New York. Yeah. I'm

20:17

helping you, but don't ask me. Don't take any

20:19

more of my time. Yeah,

20:22

yeah.

20:23

Have you ever made a friend

20:25

through Craigslist?

20:26

Oh, totally. I mean, when

20:28

I was living in Somerville in

20:30

Massachusetts, I

20:33

was looking for a roommate. And

20:36

these two people showed up. One

20:39

of them was really bubbly, and he worked at a coffee

20:41

shop. And

20:43

me and my roommates were like, all right, yeah, let's

20:46

take him. It says we'll get free coffee

20:48

from him. But then he

20:50

didn't respond to us.

20:51

So we went with the other guy

20:54

who was much

20:56

quieter.

20:57

And he became my best friend.

21:04

And

21:06

he's a big reason why the show even

21:08

got made now,

21:10

just through a weird series of

21:12

connections. And it kind

21:14

of terrifies me to think that

21:17

we would have never met. And I wouldn't have

21:20

met all the people around him, and

21:22

vice versa, I think.

21:28

And yeah,

21:30

I don't think I would have a show,

21:33

probably, if

21:36

I didn't meet

21:39

someone on Craigslist a

21:41

while ago.

21:42

It's weird. You were almost who you tried

21:44

to reject. Yeah. Yeah.

21:47

And that's also a lesson in don't pick

21:50

the bubbly person that works at the coffee shop. Pick

21:54

the normal person. That's

21:56

the life lesson. Yeah.

21:58

Because the one. that is, yeah,

22:01

maybe a little, yeah,

22:03

like, maybe a little harder to read might

22:05

be more rewarding.

22:07

That somehow seems like consistent

22:10

with what I understand to be one of your things

22:13

you really care about, which is like, like

22:17

thinking about the loss of making

22:19

a quick decision. And then what, what

22:22

could, what could be lost?

22:24

If you don't think it through? It's paralyzing.

22:27

Like,

22:28

thinking about every little thing

22:31

that is, like, it kind

22:33

of brought me here, I guess, for better or for

22:35

worse. Yeah, I

22:37

just, it's like,

22:39

I, all of these moments that were just

22:42

seem like pure chance that like, that

22:44

have shaped, like, absolutely

22:47

everything. I think just

22:49

relying on, on

22:52

chance like that kind of does

22:54

put me in a good space

22:56

sometimes. And, and there's something I like

22:58

about the purity of something like Craigslist,

23:01

you know, like, I know that kind

23:03

of whatever is, is coming through

23:06

this is real. And,

23:09

and, you know, I, I

23:13

feel like it usually guides me in the right direction.

23:22

That's John Wilson. All

23:25

three seasons of How To with

23:27

John Wilson are on HBO. I

23:30

love them. Congrats on a great run,

23:32

John. You deserve a rest. And

23:34

maybe even a day off in journaling.

23:38

That Sex and Money is

23:40

a listener supported production of WNYC

23:43

Studios in New York. This episode

23:45

was produced by Matt Frasica, Emily Botin,

23:48

and me. The rest of the team is Zoey

23:50

Azulay, Liliana Maria Percy Ruiz,

23:52

Amy Pearl, Lindsey Foster Thomas, and

23:55

Andrew Dunn. Our intern is Ellie

23:57

McKay, the Reverend John DeRue

23:59

and Steve Lewis wrote our theme music.

24:02

Find us on Instagram at DeafSexMoney

24:05

and subscribe to our weekly newsletter at

24:07

DeafSexMoney.org slash

24:09

newsletter where you can read what the team

24:12

and I and our listeners

24:13

are thinking about from week to week.

24:16

Thank you to Caroline Cloutier in

24:18

Verdun, Quebec for being a member of

24:20

DeafSex and Money and supporting us with a monthly

24:23

donation. We couldn't do this

24:25

without you, Caroline and all of our sustaining

24:27

members. One

24:36

more reason I really like John Wilson's

24:38

work. It's the opposite of the

24:41

slick aspirational images that

24:43

you usually see on TV shows and

24:45

all of our Instagram accounts.

24:46

That's intentional and

24:48

it starts, he told

24:49

me, with his search term on Craigslist.

24:52

Sometimes I'll go to just like the normal

24:55

for sale and I'll

24:58

type in the word ugly.

25:01

This is just

25:04

a hot tip. People

25:07

are

25:09

going to be emulating your style of

25:11

art. Yeah, and here we go. So the very first thing,

25:14

the Upper West Side,

25:17

McDonald's movie swag from the 1990s.

25:19

What is this? Sorry. That's going

25:26

to call my king backpack.

25:30

I'm Anna Sale and this is

25:32

Just 16 Honey from the View Union.

25:44

Thank you.