0:01

Next time on the New Yorker Radio Hour,

0:03

Liz Cheney, an exile from the Republican Party

0:05

on the threat of a second Trump term.

0:08

Liz Cheney on the New Yorker Radio

0:11

Hour, wherever you listen to podcasts. I

0:16

am more of a visual auditory

0:18

person. I'm learning still

0:21

to use words.

0:25

I've been described like as a feral

0:27

person, especially when I was young. And

0:29

you have youth and you have collagen.

0:39

You don't need words. You have adrenaline. You

0:42

don't need no words. This

0:47

is Death, Sex, and Money. A

0:52

show from WNYC about the things we

0:54

think about a lot and

0:58

need to talk about more. I'm

1:01

Anna Sale. Michelle

1:07

Ndegeyecello has been a working musician

1:10

since she was a teenager. She's

1:12

55 now and just put out her

1:15

11th solo album, her first in five

1:17

years. It started as

1:19

a kind of personal pandemic project, and

1:21

now she's sharing it with the world.

1:24

When we talked, she was just back from a

1:26

quick European tour. Yeah, Romania,

1:29

Berlin, London. I've lost.

1:32

Yeah, but those are the standouts

1:35

for Switzerland. Yes, standouts for

1:37

me. Yeah.

1:41

Oh, that sounds like a whirlwind jaunt.

1:44

Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

1:59

This is the song. an invitation from her

2:01

latest album, which is called The

2:03

Omnicord Real Book. Michelle's

2:06

music is jazz, funk,

2:08

sometimes folky, ethereal, always

2:10

with a groove. She

2:12

mostly spent her time between Brooklyn and outside

2:14

the city in Hudson, New York, but

2:17

most of her recording happens in New York City,

2:20

even though she finds the place pretty overwhelming.

2:23

This band don't work for me. I'm

2:25

really not listening to the rhythm of New York, to

2:29

be honest, yeah, it's hard for me. The

2:31

noise, I have

2:33

very sensitive auditory systems,

2:37

so that's hard for me. I

2:42

try to adjust

2:44

my humanity to fit within

2:47

this rhythm and system. I just try

2:50

to create something for

2:52

myself. And

2:54

is it that you notice

2:56

things that other people can tune out, or

2:59

how would you describe how it works? Oh,

3:02

I like the way you put that. It's the

3:05

inability to tune out. I'm

3:09

just taking in all that

3:11

I hear, and then it

3:13

just becomes a cacophony, and

3:16

I sometimes

3:19

struggle to discern and focus. That's

3:22

why I really enjoy silence. Michelle

3:25

grew up in

3:27

the Washington, D.C. area in the 70s and 80s, surrounded

3:29

by music, and she

3:31

found the bass by chance. My

3:34

father was a jazz musician, and my

3:36

brother was a budding musician. He

3:38

played guitar, and his friend left a bass over. And

3:42

prior to that, I tried the clarinet. I

3:45

tried playing in more traditional music. I

3:49

liked more traditional ensembles. My

3:52

father even tried to find me an

3:54

instructor. But

3:57

when his friend left the bass over, and I

3:59

could see that... I could play with my brother

4:01

and at that time Chic was a very popular

4:03

band which is made of a bass and guitarist

4:06

and a band called GQ that I loved

4:11

and the go-go scene. It was just

4:13

I knew this instrument would allow me

4:15

to play with other people and make

4:18

things. It's interesting to me that

4:20

it was by chance that you picked up the

4:22

bass because

4:24

I think of bass

4:26

players as... The

4:33

bass player is usually in the

4:35

back, not the center of attention, but

4:38

they're the ones setting

4:40

the tone and setting the groove for

4:43

the entire room, but maybe

4:46

in a way that you don't always notice. There's

4:50

a quiet forcefulness, I feel like, to

4:52

bassist. Do

4:59

you think that's right? Yeah,

5:02

I hear that generalization about

5:04

us. I mean, we're

5:06

all different. Right. I

5:11

mean, Thundercat does not want to

5:13

be sitting in the back.

5:17

We're all different. I

5:20

do think of the bass though as

5:23

the bridge between the

5:26

magic of harmony and

5:29

the power and heartbeat and

5:31

life of rhythm, the drummer.

5:36

I think without the

5:38

bass player, the

5:41

other two things are

5:43

just abstractions and they're show-offy

5:46

in a way, where

5:49

the bass player is content in

5:52

solidifying what's already there.

5:55

Yeah, I love... I'm not show-offy,

5:58

but without me, you're two separate. abstractions.

6:01

Just in one second, asshole. That's what I'm

6:03

really wanted to say. I was trying to

6:06

be like, ooh, how do I say it?

6:08

Like I'm very like, I'm confident. And

6:13

I will tell you, when I was first listening

6:15

to Michelle as a kid when she burst on the scene

6:17

in the 90s, I loved

6:19

the way she made her presence known. This

6:22

just makes me want to holler from her 1996 album, Peace

6:26

Beyond Passion. You've

6:43

talked about teaching yourself how

6:45

to play music and

6:48

in part doing that by listening to Prince Records.

6:52

Yeah. Can

6:54

you help me picture this? Like where

6:56

would you do this and which songs

6:58

do you remember? Oh

7:01

wow. At

7:03

that time, I lived in Maryland,

7:05

the suburb outside of southeast Washington.

7:09

And it was like our first

7:11

house that had like a rec

7:13

room. And so in

7:16

that room, my father, he

7:18

collected stereo equipment. And so there's

7:20

this great stereo. And I had

7:23

an amp and a bass. And I

7:26

would just sit and play the records

7:28

over and try to emulate the bassline.

7:31

Meaning I taught myself

7:33

to play by ear,

7:35

by listening instead of

7:37

reading music. Yeah.

7:40

And I remember going to a party and

7:43

it was his first record and I heard

7:45

it and it just was the moment I

7:47

knew that's what I was going to

7:49

do with my life. Wow. I

7:51

just wanted to be able to play

7:54

and organize music in a way

7:57

that was palpable.

8:00

You could dance to it, it felt

8:03

good, it was interesting and my mind

8:05

was blown. It

8:07

was a palpable

8:09

experience hearing the layering of the

8:12

vocals. It was like choir music

8:14

almost. I don't know

8:16

if I would play that first tune, it's called

8:18

For You on his first record. Ooh,

8:21

yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

8:30

It just really influenced my

8:32

psyche. It showed me

8:34

the power of the human voice and

8:36

harmony and just really

8:39

spoke to me in a deep way. I

8:43

think I was learning, yeah, the

8:46

power of that particular

8:49

modality, you know,

8:51

sexuality and rhythm, dance,

8:57

cultivating a space of

8:59

enchantment, which music does.

9:02

He enchanted me, he

9:04

taught me. And

9:08

teenage, Michelle? She dug

9:10

in. This song is from her first

9:12

album in 1993, picking you from an old cold

9:14

water. Remember that

9:16

in his day when everyone was laughing,

9:18

and he was just around for the

9:21

struggle. And I brought

9:23

the song together, and he was like,

9:25

The song is a complicated piece of

9:27

pasta, and it was nice and faded.

9:30

The scene wasn't handy, it was just tasty,

9:32

it was so sweet. The

9:39

music scene in D.C. became her scene.

9:42

I played like five nights a week. I played

9:45

in go-go bands and cover bands,

9:47

the pep rally band. I had a teacher

9:50

that changed my life. Her

9:53

name was Mary Cole, and she taught

9:56

at Oxen Hill High School, and she also taught

9:58

my brother, and she... We

10:00

had a band called Malaika and

10:02

it was the training ground for me

10:04

to be the

10:06

musician, the band leader that

10:09

I tried to be in

10:11

my beginnings. I owe

10:13

it all to her guidance. That's

10:15

cool. Is she still living? Yes.

10:20

I got an email from her the other

10:22

day. She's quite old, so I

10:24

know. As long as the emails

10:26

keep coming. But we have a really... She

10:33

was there for my brother and I,

10:35

my family. I grew up in a

10:37

very tumultuous household and it was Mary

10:39

Cole who just came to

10:41

my rescue, always

10:45

instilling in me curiosity

10:48

about music. I

10:50

remember her having the record for

10:53

the concert for apartheid. That

10:56

being my first seeing

10:59

and hearing music

11:01

from that continent and

11:03

that diaspora. She

11:06

always expressed upon me, read.

11:10

Just try to force yourself to enjoy

11:13

fiction and other sort of literature. Just

11:19

keep your mind going. There

11:23

was always people wanting to saw in me

11:26

in a hope that I would go to college.

11:31

Yeah, I thank her so much for giving

11:33

me skills because I'm very

11:35

much an autodidactic. I did

11:38

not really excel in school.

11:41

It was a very difficult environment for me.

11:44

With her, she gave me skills

11:46

that I used till this day. She

11:49

must be very proud of you. Oh,

11:51

I hope so. Yeah, she's

11:54

come to see me play. Like

11:56

my mother, like my

11:58

mother would not... not come

12:00

see me play. I think she came once

12:02

and stayed for like five

12:05

minutes. But Mary Cole has always

12:07

been just extremely

12:09

supportive to

12:11

all my endeavors. This

12:32

is another great song

12:34

for her debut album

12:38

called If That's Her Voice Out. For

12:40

Michelle, after

12:49

high school, the responsibilities of

12:51

adulthood came quickly. I

12:53

had a baby at 20. By

12:56

21, I moved

12:59

to New York. Michelle fell

13:01

into the scene there and made new

13:03

artists and musician friends in New York,

13:05

people with industry connections. Her

13:08

demo cassette got passed around and she quickly

13:10

signed a record deal. It

13:12

literally just lined up like that because

13:15

I had a child and

13:17

I think I tried to see

13:21

what it would be like to be with the other

13:26

my child's, you know, other.

13:29

I don't

13:33

even know what to call that person because we

13:35

have absolutely nothing between us. This

13:38

is the other parent of your child? Yeah.

13:43

And so I knew, I just knew

13:45

like whatever was going to happen for

13:48

my life and my son is

13:50

on me. And so

13:52

I'm sure it comes across as swagger, but

13:56

I think it's more like a mountain climber. I

13:59

just have the I

14:02

often tell people I'm a mediocre

14:04

musician, but I'm

14:07

an idea person and I

14:09

listen and I think that's what's gotten

14:11

me so far. I

14:14

just have the will to the

14:16

will and the curiosity and

14:20

a compulsion to make music. Are

14:24

you saying that part of what was

14:26

propelling you in that early

14:28

time in New York was feeling

14:30

like you needed to earn to take care

14:32

of your kid? Oh yeah. I mean,

14:35

I grew up with a depressed parent.

14:38

My mother was severely depressed and

14:42

my father was like an amazing

14:48

man in the sense of

14:51

shiny. Very

14:53

compelling and

14:55

very talented and enchanting.

15:00

That word's been coming up for me. But

15:03

there was another side too that was

15:05

just chaos, utter chaos. So

15:10

what, yeah, between the depression

15:13

and having to depend on my father

15:16

or having the

15:19

thought of having to depend on a man

15:23

just really, I think, ignited in

15:25

me. Yeah,

15:29

just like I had to create my

15:31

own world. And

15:33

I think the mechanism

15:35

for surviving a lot

15:38

of the experiences of childhood was

15:40

to go within myself,

15:42

within my imagination and

15:45

create. It is my solace.

15:48

It is the one thing that I

15:50

count on. And

15:53

I know that it is a gift from the

15:56

creator because it just has been

15:58

something that I just... I

16:01

don't question it. It's the only thing I don't

16:03

question. Coming

16:19

up, Michel on the strange

16:21

experience of being a famous musician, only

16:24

some of the time. When I have the

16:26

bass and I'm on stage, people

16:29

see me as one thing. But

16:31

in my neighborhood in Carroll Gardens, most people

16:33

think I'm the nanny. Or,

16:37

you know, we were

16:39

somewhere and I would get on the elevator

16:41

and people would, you know, get off. So,

16:45

it's like I'm

16:47

just at a place in my life

16:49

where the only thing I have control

16:51

over is my state of

16:53

being. And I'm really enjoying

16:57

the dance I'm having with myself. That's

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apply. This

18:08

is death, sex, and money from WNYC. I'm

18:11

Anna Sale. If you don't

18:13

yet know Michelle and Degay-Cello's music well,

18:16

I'm pretty sure you've heard this. Wild

18:18

Nights, her and John

18:22

Mellencamp's cover of the Van

18:25

Morrison song. It's

18:37

her biggest hit. It peaked at number three on the

18:39

Billboard Top 100 in 1994. And

18:43

for Michelle, this was a wild time

18:45

of the world opening up in a

18:47

lot of ways. She was connecting with

18:50

Muslim teachers and converted to Islam. There

18:52

was romance. She was on MTV. It

18:55

all felt great at first.

18:58

I didn't listen well, and I think that's why,

19:01

you know, I'm

19:03

trying to find my record contract because

19:05

I literally signed, you know, my life

19:08

away because I was just

19:10

happy. I was content

19:12

that you wanted to hear my music. And

19:14

I think for a decade

19:17

of making music, that's where

19:19

the contentment came from. So

19:22

whatever I have to do to do that,

19:24

okay. I

19:27

was not very business savvy. I

19:30

was not very socially savvy because

19:34

luckily I'm naive in a

19:36

sense, or I'm

19:38

not a master of the social cues.

19:42

I'm like a bull in a china shop. I've

19:45

had to like, just like learn some,

19:48

a few things. And I'm glad I

19:50

have. And I'm glad now I can

19:52

see there's a way that dominant culture

19:54

works. There is a way that the

19:57

music business works. I don't, I'm no

19:59

longer railing. against it, I just

20:01

see it for what it is. Uh-huh. Was

20:04

there something that happened after that decade

20:07

where you

20:10

realized that it was not just enough to

20:12

be given the opportunity to make Isaac? Oh,

20:16

yes, yes. 9-11

20:21

was a real changing experience

20:24

for me. I

20:27

flew the day before on the same plane

20:31

to do a fashion week show. It

20:34

was a surreal experience. I

20:38

just remember I got to the hotel

20:40

on the 10th, the evening of

20:42

the 10th, and

20:45

then I got to this hotel,

20:48

and it was one of the fanciest hotels

20:50

I had ever spent in my

20:52

life. And

20:54

I remember on the back of the door, you

20:57

could see the price of the room, and it

20:59

was some exorbitant amount that my mind just was

21:02

just blown, and it was like

21:04

just an evening of extravagance.

21:08

And so I'm there, and then I wake

21:10

up the next morning, and there's no water,

21:12

there's nothing, there's chaos. And

21:17

I remember hearing people say things

21:20

that were mind-blowing to me, like,

21:23

what do you mean? Are you going to

21:25

have the show? Or can't you just send

21:27

a helicopter and pick me up? Like

21:29

it taught me about wealth,

21:31

and it just was

21:33

like a surreal experience. And then I ran to

21:35

the middle of Times Square, because

21:38

the hotel was on Sixth Avenue, and I

21:41

watched the first tower fall, like

21:43

in real time, like not on

21:45

a screen. Yeah, you witnessed

21:47

it. And it was just like we're all

21:50

in Times Square as if it's

21:54

New Year's Eve. And I

21:56

made one call to the person who I loved,

21:58

and I believe loved me. at that time and

22:00

I got through, I just marked

22:02

that as the beginning my life changed.

22:06

Just it was like the beginning where

22:10

I'm stuck here. I'm

22:13

literally stuck in the city. Where

22:16

am I going to go? What is

22:18

going to happen? All

22:20

seems so meaningless. And

22:23

as a musician or as

22:26

someone who's sensitive to that,

22:28

it's just that, yeah, the feeling and

22:30

to watch people's worlds

22:33

change and perceptions of the

22:36

world change. That's when

22:38

I think that's a big

22:40

marker for me. Plus I had a recording

22:42

that was going to come out and I was in

22:45

the hijab and then they were like, you

22:47

cannot put that out. It

22:51

was just like a moment for me

22:54

where you just see like this

22:56

is entertainment and I don't

22:58

think I want to be an entertainer.

23:01

I want to be a musician. I

23:03

want to be a really good musician

23:05

and songwriter. I want to be

23:07

a really good person. I

23:10

know the power of music. It's

23:12

like you're given a sword and you're

23:14

just out there willy nilly waving it

23:16

around. I

23:19

hope that doesn't sound arrogant, but yeah,

23:21

I just know the power. I'm learning

23:23

the power of the sound waves

23:26

and the

23:28

power of the word and the

23:31

human voice, its

23:33

effect on your

23:35

molecular structure and

23:38

its ability to bring

23:41

about a memory. Like there's nothing more

23:43

powerful than a love song. Like

23:45

I'm a cry right now. Like there is

23:47

music that I can hear

23:49

and it

23:51

just transports you like

23:54

a time machine to that

23:56

moment. You

24:00

can be more than you

24:02

gotta die like a man followed by We

24:05

all want someone to pay But

24:10

when you come, when you come to stay We

24:13

live a life day after day And

24:17

it hurts Remember

24:23

thought that all came crashing

24:25

down A long

24:28

worth change There

24:32

was a period of time

24:34

where I just didn't do

24:36

anything I just stopped How

24:40

long was that period of not doing anything? Oh

24:43

like five, six years until the accountant was

24:45

like tu have nothing you

24:50

have made it to

24:52

zero Nothing's

24:55

happening I'm like, it

24:58

was, yeah And

25:00

that period of rest, was that in your 30s? That

25:03

period of stepping away completely So

25:05

you know I had a bad reputation I

25:08

was just like a loose cannon So

25:10

I just stopped And then I

25:12

think my partner now just

25:15

for, I just I

25:19

praise her I'm

25:21

grateful just to have the

25:23

patience to aid

25:25

me in my endeavors and clarity

25:27

and it's learning to take responsibility

25:29

for my actions I am not

25:31

special just because they give

25:33

you free beer at the bar because they like

25:36

your songs means nothing And

25:38

you know I just try

25:40

to care for the people who are

25:42

kind enough to like not blow smoke

25:44

up my arse and

25:47

treat me like a human being Do

26:05

you feel like you still... both

26:07

of your parents are gone. Do

26:10

you feel like you're still in

26:12

relationship with them? Is that how

26:15

you experience it? Oh,

26:17

not anymore. I mean,

26:19

yeah, I think this new recording

26:22

is me letting that go. It's

26:25

like, I mean, I have their ashes on

26:27

my altar. I'm with them every day. This

26:29

is for the last few

26:31

years, physically more

26:33

than I was. I mean, I left my house as

26:36

soon as I could. But

26:40

the relationship I have now is

26:43

one of knowledge and

26:45

educating myself about being human because

26:47

I have to really humble myself

26:49

and understand it. My

26:51

parents are people of color who were

26:54

born before civil rights in

26:57

the South. And

26:59

have had an experience that I

27:01

can't fathom. And

27:04

I don't know what they were equipped with. And

27:06

I think reading The Fire Next Time changed that

27:08

for me. My mother had

27:10

a fourth grade education. I

27:12

taught my mother how to read. My

27:16

father was a frustrated musician who joined

27:18

the military. And in the Baldwin

27:20

book, I never forget, it's like, he

27:23

talks about how men go to the

27:25

military and they're ruined. They ruined their

27:27

humanity. And

27:29

I think, yeah, my father came back very

27:32

disillusioned, also an alcoholic to

27:34

deal with the pain. It's

27:40

not the center of my being, but

27:43

I'm no longer rolling through my life

27:45

thinking that systematic

27:52

racism did

27:54

not have an effect on my family and

27:57

how I grew up and the perception

27:59

I have now. of myself. In

28:12

Michelle's life now, she's raising her younger

28:14

13-year-old son with her partner Allison. They've

28:16

been married since 2005. Michelle's

28:20

older son Solomon is 34. I

28:23

thank my son Solomon every day. Every

28:26

day of my life he made me a better person. There's

28:30

so many things I wish I could have done differently.

28:34

But having a child at 20 and

28:36

with no preparation, if I

28:39

could do it all again, I think I would.

28:41

Just in the terms of, would

28:43

I be exposing him

28:46

to certain situations,

28:49

not going on tour a lot and

28:52

having to leave him with

28:54

people I loved. I know he was safe, but

28:56

I know that was hard. Also

28:58

moving around a lot and not allowing him

29:01

to create certain sort of relationships in high

29:03

school. They're

29:05

not regrets, they're just something I see as like, oh,

29:07

I see how this works with the child. But

29:10

I think it's made him, he's

29:13

a fantastic traveler. He's

29:18

the ambassador of love and a good

29:20

time. He's modular. He

29:23

can go anywhere. He's culturally

29:25

fluent. So

29:28

I hope he appreciates that. And

29:33

then with my youngest, because

29:35

he is not from

29:37

my body, he's from

29:39

my to people

29:42

I love so dearly. He

29:46

may not come from my body, but he is

29:48

my creation. The

29:51

love I have for him is a love that is,

29:55

I feel like I see him for him.

29:57

I don't attach it to my ego.

30:00

Like, I have to see him for him and

30:03

him only. Unlike

30:06

with my son, which with

30:08

my first son out of my body,

30:11

I think there was a lot of like, okay,

30:13

this happened in my family and I can't let

30:15

you be like that. Like there was a lot

30:18

of like projection. And

30:21

there is a lot of osmosis. I

30:24

do see aspects of my personality. But

30:29

as a parent, I make this joke,

30:31

I read it in a New York

30:33

Times article where some people

30:35

are furniture makers. I'm more of a

30:37

gardener and I don't know what seeds

30:39

I've planted, but I tried to just

30:41

cultivate it and water it and give

30:43

it enough sun, prune it. I'm

30:48

not angry at it when it pricks me

30:50

with its storms. You

30:52

know, I just try to be

30:56

there, which I'm learning with

30:59

all human interactions. I

31:01

just want to be there for you. And

31:05

in my absence that you know

31:07

that I care, even sleep. I've

31:13

been saying things I

31:15

don't believe. I've

31:18

been doing things that just

31:20

hate me. I've

31:26

been knowing that the sky could end

31:28

in your spot. Keep

31:31

on living the

31:33

same day. I've

31:39

lived a

31:44

path that I'd rather

31:46

pretend to

31:50

be. I

31:53

have like a very, it's kind of

31:55

an embarrassing question and it's a personal

31:58

question. Hear me. I'm,

32:01

you know, as somebody like you

32:03

make art and

32:05

you have made, you

32:07

have made art that you've been

32:09

proud of and you also have

32:12

made, you've like continually tried to

32:14

make art and like evolving

32:16

in different ways. And

32:18

you've talked about like trying to get

32:20

to that beginner's mind. And

32:23

when I think of that, I think

32:26

there's a particular creative challenge for

32:28

people who have found

32:32

some success, made

32:34

something that was beautiful, shared it with

32:36

people and then they have

32:38

to try to do it again. It

32:41

can be really scary, especially if you're trying to do

32:43

it in a new way. Like

32:47

when you think about trying to make

32:50

music in a way that's not

32:52

derivative of past ways you

32:54

have found external

32:57

validation or success. What do you focus on?

33:00

How do you get to that place?

33:06

I don't really think about that, Anna, to

33:08

be honest. Everything you

33:10

just said is just like, who thinks like

33:12

that? I do. It's so embarrassing.

33:16

Or like, yeah, I can't, I'm going

33:19

to rest on my laurels. Yeah. Yeah.

33:23

No, it's not resting on laurels.

33:25

It's being afraid of losing ground

33:27

after building something you're proud of.

33:30

You know, that's sort of the feeling that

33:32

I have. But it sounds like

33:34

it doesn't resonate, that question. I

33:37

don't know. How do you? Yeah,

33:39

I'm like, yeah,

33:43

like my mind doesn't even, I can't

33:45

even frame my thought to

33:48

that. I just am like, I try,

33:50

I mean, there's

33:53

no encore. I

33:55

just, so I just, I, um. Bear

34:02

with me. I think

34:06

authenticity is unsustainable. I just want

34:08

to say that first. What's

34:12

that mean? I just try to

34:14

be like really in the moment with

34:17

the music. I mean, there's nothing

34:19

new under the sun. It

34:23

really isn't. And I just

34:28

come to every conversation that I'm

34:31

having with myself in the music

34:34

with the intention of

34:36

just being

34:39

present in any work I do.

34:43

It's not like I'm trying to stay authentic

34:45

because I think that's unsustainable too. That's

34:47

like a character you put on. But

34:51

honestly, I think I thrive on

34:55

naivete, a

34:57

loss of brain cells. And

35:03

I truly am a person.

35:05

I walk in faith. I

35:08

really believe even what I hear

35:11

is a transmission. I just wait for

35:13

the transmission. And some

35:15

of them I have to set aside. But

35:17

I always make music. I draw,

35:20

I paint, I try

35:22

to... I

35:24

am driven by

35:28

self-expression because I feel so

35:30

trapped in this material

35:34

experience. Her

35:44

latest album is called The Omnichord

35:46

Real Book. We used lots of

35:48

songs from it in this episode

35:51

and it's nominated for the best alternative jazz

35:53

album Grammy award this year. You

35:56

can see all the music of hers were used

35:58

in our episode transcripts... Stacks

36:03

and Money is a listener supported production

36:05

of WNYC Studios in New York.

36:07

This episode was produced by Andrew

36:09

Dunn with help from Afie Yellow

36:11

Duke. The rest of our team

36:13

is Liliana Maria Percy Ruiz, Zoe

36:15

Azulay and Lindsay Foster Thomas. Our

36:18

intern is Ellie McKay, whom we are

36:20

saying goodbye to this week. Thank you,

36:22

Ellie, and best of luck in all

36:24

that's next. The Reverend John

36:26

Delore and Steve Lewis wrote our theme music.

36:30

Subscribe to our weekly newsletter if

36:32

you haven't already. I write a weekly essay

36:34

there. And as we told you,

36:36

our show is in transition here at WNYC,

36:39

and we'll share updates about the future of the

36:41

show there as we learn them, along

36:43

with other things that the team

36:45

and I are thinking about. Sign

36:47

up to get that newsletter every

36:50

week at deathsexmoney.org/newsletter. Thank

36:52

you to Marjorie Nicholson Albers in Calisville,

36:54

Montana, for being a member of Death,

36:57

Sex and Money and supporting us with

36:59

a monthly donation. We couldn't do this

37:01

without you, Marjorie, and all of our

37:03

sustaining members. Thank you. As

37:06

Michelle and I ended our conversation, I

37:08

asked her whether she had artists role models

37:11

now in this stage of life, and

37:13

she told me if she doesn't really, and

37:15

she's on the lookout. I am

37:18

desperate, actually, to find mentorship at

37:20

my age. I

37:22

don't have a lot of elder women in my life, so

37:25

the things that are happening to my body

37:27

are really interesting, and I wish I had

37:29

people to talk to about it. I

37:32

think I noticed this morning that Shaka Khan

37:34

had commented on an Instagram post of yours,

37:37

so maybe you should send her a DM.

37:40

Oh, no, yeah, I love her. Oh,

37:42

my God. Are you... Oh, my

37:44

God. How

37:47

else should I make a brunch date? Oh,

37:49

that would be awesome. Oh, my God.

37:52

Wow. I'm Anna

37:54

Sale, and this is Death, Sex

37:56

and Money from WNYC. Thank

38:00

you.