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This episode was recorded in February 2020 prior to the widespread economic effects resulting from COVID-19 stay-at-home regulations.

Today's episode is brought to you by Mvelopes. That's M like Mary v-e-l-o-p-e-s. Mvelopes uses the tried and true envelope budget system. All in one easy app. Give every dollar a purpose. Mvelopes.com.

0:15 Welcome to Debt-Proof Living with Mary Hunt. It's all about life money and how to live well and thrive below your means. Today on Debt-Proof Living with Mary Hunt we begin a very special series based on one of Mary's best selling books, 7 Money Rules for Life: How to Take Control of Your Financial Future and in today's episode the cost of financial ignorance.

0:44 Mary: Hi everyone I'm Mary I'm so happy you're here with me today for this episode. I've got a question for you. You ready? If you had to pass a test to prove you could handle money before you could get your next paycheck, you know the way that you have to pass a test to prove you can drive a car, would you get paid?

1:03 The sad truth is that millions of us wouldn’t. When it comes to managing money Americans young and old are flunking out. They don't have a clue. I know that I was in that position years and years ago and I'm gonna tell you a little bit about that before we do that I just want to kind of give an overview of where we are right now.

1:31 The economy seems like it's just fabulous people are working hardly anybody is without a job. Homes are appreciating like crazy. Wages are going up. It costs me less to fill up my car with gas than it did a couple of years ago. It all looks so rosy. But oh my goodness, the other side of the coin is what's happening to individuals. Now, I'm not talking about our national economy so much as I am a personal economies 

2:02 After all I don't know about you— there’s nothing I can do about the national debt. I can wail. I can whine. I can vote…but there's nothing I can do to pay back trillions of dollars in our national economy and you can't either. But you know what, we do have control of our personal economies and that’s, that's what we want to start talking about.

2:31 It’s staggering and I'm not gonna hit you up with a lot of statistics right now although I could. Only yesterday, yesterday I was reading the Wall Street Journal where they reported… this is blows me away… that credit card debt outstanding in this country has risen by more than $46 billion in just the last quarter somethings wrong here people. This is something really awful.  It is now exceeds it it's almost $1 trillion that we owe in credit card debt outstanding well I shouldn't say we because yes I”m going to tell you the end of the story- I’m debt free. I have no

3:12 credit card debt any more but I want to help you in that area as well so let's get back to this whole matter of what's going on in our country. It's unbelievable with more jobs with people working more wage is going up it seems like our credit card debt should be going down right because most people should be paying it off every month. But that's not happening! and if you look at my mailbox you will see that people are in trouble now more than ever. Statistically 77% of Americans are now living paycheck-to-paycheck without any emergency fund, without any savings.

3:50 They have absolutely nothing to fall back on should the least little thing go wrong! So, what happens with the refrigerator goes out or the car needs tires or breaks? Pull out the credit card! Isn’t that the way we’re living? It's very scary and then if we talk about student loans oh my goodness. It is heartbreaking! Students. Parents who have a prepared feel like the only way that they can handle this momentous situation and season of their children's lives is for all of them—parents and students to take out these massive student loans. (I’m telling you something - its not right

4:30  It’s not good. This is going to sink Americans one-by-one unless we wake up. Let's go back to that question. What grade would you give yourself if I gave you a test on personal finance? Well don't worry. There's no test going on because I of all people have no right in order to do that. I would not judge you in that way at all. What I want to offer you is help. I want to share with you what I have learned over the years. It's been quite a few years now and I do have some experience. Not only

5:12 with my own life my husband and my situation. I have, I, I am humbled to say that I've been able to lead thousands of people out of debt into a lifestyle where they are spending less than they earn. They are saving for the future. They're not going into debt needlessly. They have homes. They are living what we call a debt-proof life. That's where you're paying as you go and you’re scaling your lifestyle to meet the amount of money that you earn. One last thing I  think I want to say before I want to tell you my story

5:55 I want to tell you right now that I think, I know for certain, I know that you are a millionaire. Don’t believe me? All right. All right. Let me prove it to you. As of today, as we speak, statistically, and this is all kept somewhere. The federal government does all this. The median US household income is $63,179. That's everything combined that comes into your home. You may make more than that. You might make less. Median means that half of Americans make more, half make less.

6:35 So let's just take that average, that small amount. It sounds small, doesn't it? Some people would say that's poverty levels for some households in a bigger cities areas where is expensive to live. Now I want to take that amount $63,179 and multiply it by 45. That is the number of years that you are expected to work. That's the American way. Before that you're ready to retire, you put in 45 years of employment. Now of course you're going to get raises over the years. You’re going to make job changes and all, but let's just say that you stick right to 63 179 your entire working 

7:17 career should be multiply it? $63,179×45 is ready? $2,843,055. You are a millionaire! You say that and you are getting your millions one paycheck at a time. How are you doing with it?How are you managing that money? That's what we're going to talk about in this series. I can't wait to share with you what I've learned when I've helped other people to learn and the successes that have happened by learning

7:57 something simple called the Seven Money Rules for Life.

Today I want to tell you a little bit about my story. My pulse raced as I sign my name. What is the sales clerk called the bank to see if I had the money in the account? Or worse, what if she called the police? I was about to attempt to pass a hot check. Something I had never done before and I was sweating bullets! Just days before, I arrived in Southern California and moved into the college dormitory which will become my home for the next four years. The student handbook was filled with rules and helpful hints for student life including

8:39 information on how to open a student checking account and a local bank. So, I did. I'm a rule follower. Fitting in and getting up to speed social he was a top priority for me. So when my roommate invited me to go to the mall I jumped at the chance! Honestly, I've never seen such an amazing place. I have no idea what I bought that day. It was all but spur the moment. The other girls were shopping and I wanted to be cool and independent like them. Making my own decisions and getting to decide what I liked was new for me and, boy, did it feel good! I experienced a few moments of anxiety as I traced in my mind what I was about to do.

9:20 I knew that I didn't have enough money in the bank to buy anything. The good girl in me was cautiously reluctant. But the naughty girl? She said just go ahead—go for it! Nothings going to happen that’s bad. Besides, you deserve what you want. So I wrote a check knowing I didn't have the money in my account. That was back— well, years ago before the days of electronic checks, high-speed computers and instantaneous transactions. I knew that I was about to get a paycheck for my new campus job and with any luck I get it into the bank before this when I was writing was going to clear. That was my plan - all would be well.

10:00 This powerful event in some sick, twisted way fulfilled the promise I made to myself at the ripe age of 11. I said when I grow up I'm going to be rich! The second of four children, I grew up in a sheltered environment. Looking back now I can see that we were as frugal family as you could get it at the time. I didn't see it that way. My childhood perception was that we were dirt poor and poverty stricken. My mother didn't work. My father was a pastor and I had to wear clothes from the thrift store. It was embarrassing. I hated my life, and dreamed about the day when I would grow up and get to make my own decisions

10:44  and have things other people had. The Sears catalog was my planning tool. I’d secretly shop and make lists of all the beautiful linens and furniture and household items that I would buy and furnish for my dream home. I found my future family and their respective sections of the catalog and outfitted them all. Oh, they wore the most beautiful clothes. I bought my children toys. My husband had a riding lawnmower. I even bought a white picket fence! I lived in a fantasy world. Creating a life I would have one day when I was old enough to leave home. 

Now seven years later and far from home in a big beautiful department store with a checkbook in hand, I 

11:24 felt as if I had arrived. I could buy anything I wanted. I felt rich and it felt fantastic! My experience that day was a defining moment that would change the course of my life.

Julie:  Let's take a quick break for just a minute. Hi, I'm Julie producer of Debt-Proof Living with Mary Hunt. You know, many of us have the experience in our lives of living paycheck to paycheck and many people. I know it well, have a difficult time following a budget. But not managing our money as a leading cause of stress in our lives.That's why Mvelopes created a simple, affordable envelope budgeting program that just works. Mvelopes helps you take control of your future by giving every dollar a purpose, every dollar, a purpose, people who use Mvelopes see monthly savings of 10% of their spending within six weeks of getting started and they report less anxiety.

Now, currently Mvelopes is extending their free trial to 60 days for all of their subscriptions. So there's never been a better time to start on a new path. Just click the link in the show notes and sign up today. Risk-free .Okay. Now let's get back to our conversation. 

Mary: Simply knowing that as long as I could get away with it I could have it I want it even if I didn't have enough money to pay for it. That changed me in ways that could all but ruin my life.
We’re not talking about credit cards here. I managed to squeeze that kind a promise from a checking account! It's not like I had experience with deceit or breaking rules. In fact, I had always been a compliant, obedient child and certainly never one to

12:07 flirt with dishonesty or anything else that might be considered sinful. In all of my strict upbringing, which mostly centered on what not to do, I didn't learn a thing about managing money. Reconciling a checking account was completely foreign to me. APY? A budget? Not a clue. To this day I don't know if my parents assumed I would learn money management skills or some kind of a financial osmosis. They may have thought that one semester of high school bookkeeping would set me on the right fiscal path. Maybe they figured I do it most women didn't those days and marry and man who would take care of all the money details for me.

12:50 Most likely it didn't cross their minds to teach me how to handle the currency of life. It was simply not a topic that anyone talked about. I did graduate from college and managed to stay out of jail in the process. Unfortunately my financial shenanigans didn't start with the first hot chick that day at the mall.  I came to enjoy the option of being able to spend my money before I had it in my possession. I discovered it having more than one checking account allowed me to do that more efficiently, because I could buy more time. Honestly, I didn't know that having checking accounts in several different banks in order to pass checks between them to give them time to cover checks I’d written (a practice known as 

13:35 check kiting) I had no idea that was illegal. I thought I discovered a very clever way to manage all the money I didn't have. I don't claim to get a master of manipulation. I was pretty good at it. Now and then I’d mess up and I get those nasty phone calls from the bank or on occasion a merchant letting me know that my check it bounced. I hated it when that happened.

Shortly after my 22nd birthday, I made a big life decision I knew would fix my money problems and move me closer to my goal of being rich. I got married. I don’t mean that I just got married…

14:17 I got married to a banker! I was madly in love of course, but it didn't hurt one bit to know that I was marrying well. It was shocking to me to learn after we've been married for a few months, that as a management trainee Harold did not make the insane amount of money I'd always associated with the banking profession. It took even less time for that banker to discover that his new wife had, well, shall we say, a little problem spending. To say that I was a prime target for the consumer credit industry is putting it mildly. In my heart I knew that a checking account was never meant to be a financing tool.

14:59 It took a lot of effort to make that work. But a credit card! Now that was completely different! And exactly the instrument I needed to kick up my buy now pay later financial habit even a few more notches. Companies were falling all over themselves to give me credit cards because of course they discovered that I was so credit worthy. This was before the law was amended to make it illegal for companies to send out the credit cards unsolicited. Even better they trusted me with a lot of money! I mean credit- which elevated my opinion of myself. After all, if they thought I could handle thousands of dollars of available credit

15:43 apparently I could. And wasn't that a pleasant surprise! I begin collecting credit cards away some people collect baseball cards. It was fascinating to see just how many I could get. I didn't intend to use them but I love the sense of security I had just knowing they were safe in my wallet. It didn't take long however for me to find plenty of reasons to use them. After all I had emergencies! Since the reason for having the cards in the first place was  should be prepared in case of emergency. I found it perfectly reasonable to use them in that way. my way of living with simple: spend money until you run out, and then spend credit.

16:26 or the rest or use the credit to preserve your money I would often default to the if-it-feels-good-do-it method which is closely related to if-it’s-on-sale-it’s-a-sign-that-God-wants-me-to-buy-it. The arrivals of our two sons Jeremy and Joshua give me new reasons to need more money. That meant chasing ever increasing amounts of credit. What began as monthly balances that we could pay in full turned into only the minimum payments required each month. The debt grew little by little at first. It didn't seem like a big deal because the monthly payments seemed affordable. It took no time at all for the line between

17:08 Harold's income and our available credit to blur to the point that I lived as well the credit was the same as income. Just one big pile of money which to make the best life possible for my family. When the pile would evaporate I’d find more credit. I learned quickly the various store’s and bank’s credit card rules. Use them often. Pay the minimum monthly payment. View credit limits as if they are gold stars on your character and personal worth. If you need us to increase your credit- just call. Being a good consumer and playing by retailers rules was like 

17:49 getting regular raises. While I didn't dwell on it, somewhere in the back of my mind I knew that the debt I was amassing would have to be repaid someday in another time and place far far away. I believed that it would all work out just like magic. 

When we been married for about 12 years I begged Harold to quit the bank so that he could start his own business and we could become rich entrepreneurs. I knew that his banker salary would never cut it. Finally he did leave his job because he wanted to make me happy and we became the newest independent distributors with a group that promised us that we would become rich.

18:30 We committed the two fatal errors of self-employment. We got into a business we knew nothing about and we did it with borrowed funds. Within four months my dream turned into our collective nightmare as we lost our business and walked away with nothing but more debt. I didn't intend to ruin my life but gradually over time I came this close to doing it. I made a horrible mess! One that put our home in a threat of foreclosure and left us unemployed. In the fall of 1982 my world came crashing down. I had no idea how much debt we had, but I knew it was a lot. 

19:14 There were even accounts and debts that Harold didn't know about.  That day I found myself flat on the floor on my face. I've never felt so alone and so afraid in my life. I had no more options no where to turn and no idea what to do. I was completely out of hope. That day was my turning point. Lying there on the floor I knew that my only option was to look up and that's what I had an amazing encounter with the God of the universe for the first time I saw the ugliness of my greed and what it had done to my life.

19:53 It was more than I could bear. I wept and remorse for what I had done. It wasn't my rotten luck, my husbands under paying career or any of the things I blame that landed me in this pathetic place. It was me. I'd been demanding, self-serving, manipulative and deceitful. I was in the worst jam imaginable and I had taken my family with me. I had no idea what to do except a call out to God and ask him to forgive me. I asked for another chance in an opportunity to pay back the debt and to change my ways. as I got up off the floor that day the fog

20:35 didn’t lift to reveal a pile of money that we just fix everything. But I knew I'd been forgiven and in that promise I found new hope that my life could be better. You might assume that I with my newly found determination to become money-wise together with my husband and his banking and finance background would know exactly how to take charge of our personal finances. But you'd be wrong! Honestly, we didn't have a clue what to do! Within a few weeks though what I can say now is an amazing set of circumstances, I went to work as a part-time industrial property manager. Odd because I didn’t seek that job. It came looking for me.

21:17  A gentleman whom I met years before sought me out offering me a job on terms that I could choose. I could choose to work in his family’s real estate development company. For the next two years Harold and I reversed rolls as I became the breadwinner and he a stay at home dad. As I began receiving regular paychecks, I realized how ignorant I was about what to do with money. Admitting that I didn't know it all was something refreshing. My heart had become tenderized and that diluted my arrogance and pride making me willing to be eager to learn. Compared to our bills and outstanding debts a single paycheck was like a rain drop in the ocean. I mean what’s $400 when you’re staring at 

21:59 one month stack of past due bills that added up to more than $4000! It was beyond overwhelming. Normally my approach for how to spend such a small amount compared to the amount we need to get current would have been something like this: well, since we don't have enough to pay all the bills let’s buy groceries and then take the kids to Disneyland. I just had a transformational experience. Even though I didn't know what to do with our personal finances I knew that what I had been doing wasn't working. There had to be a change and it needed to start now. That's when I sat down and made a list. Little did I know that those first few written documents for how we would appropriate any amount of money

22:41 that came into our household that they would develop into the seven rules. Over the years as Harold and I walked through the dark night of debt and into the bright light of solvency, and then onto founding Debt-Proof Living I've reworked, refined, expanded and consolidated the rules to the seven I'm going to share with you in the series. Since making that U-turn on the road to financial devastation more than a few people have expressed their shock by asking me: How could you let that happen? My answer is simple at several defining moments in my life

23:23 like a day I stood in that department store with my new checkbook in hand. Like a day I excepted a credit card without telling my husband. The day I filled out the form to get my own secret post office box where I could receive statements for my secret credit cards to name a few. At those times I face critical decision points and each time I made the wrong choice. I have no doubt that at the time I made them I could've convincingly defended those choices. But that would have not made them the right decisions. Absent a simple set of rules to follow for how to manage money well, I had no foundation on which to stand. No fundamentals to turn to.

24:05 I learned a lot from my journey back from the brink. I didn't become an heiress or win the lottery. I worked harder than I've ever worked in my life. The process shaped my attitude and my beliefs. As God provided the opportunities we paid back your ready we paid back more than $100,000 in unsecured debt. Now I find the greatest joy in my life's work of leading others out of debt. Through it all the most important thing I've learned is this. Money management is not difficult, person finance is not brain surgery.

24:47 Anyone can learn to apply a simple set of reliably sound rules to manage money and discover the path to financial freedom. While I have determined that I will not live with regret; I do wonder how things might've turned out if someone had taught me simple principles for making financial decisions. I believe that I would have saved years of heartache and untold amounts of money to say nothing of lost opportunities. At those pivotal defining moments I would've made a different decision because a specific rule would have been my guide. I would've known almost instinctively what to do. Not come up with some wild

25:24 manipulative response to the absence of a specific guiding principle on which to rely. I am so grateful for how God has taken the broken pieces of my life and woven them into a tapestry of beauty that reflects his grace and mercy. It is a daily testament to the way that God can take even the worst mistakes and turn them into something of value. If your current financial situation has you all tied up in knots and stressed out of your mind, I want you to get ready for some relief. Things are not likely to change overnight but perhaps for the first time you will know what to do to get the change started.

26:05 Wouldn’t it be nice to find out that they're simple rules of the road that can cut through all of the confusion? the mystery and the misery? and enable us to get our financial life on track? I have great news— there are! As I was preparing the proposal to write the book 7 Money Rules for Life I had this idea these rules have to be winnowed down. They have to be edited. They have to be so easy. So simple that even a fifth grader could recite them. But I took it one step further, I thought you know what - I wonder, could I get these rules

26:47 so small, so simple that I could write all seven of them on the back of one business card? Guess what? Yes! That's how they are. They are so simple. I’m gonna teach you how to do this. I am so excited and we're going to get started with the next episode so don't miss. Listen every time and I would love to hear from you.

Julie: You know, Mary as I was listening to you tell your story questions came up in my mind that I'm just curious about and I bet our listeners are wondering about as well. So can I ask you a couple questions?

OK this will be fun. 

27:28  The first one was especially about your journey back and what was the hardest lie? or the hardest thought? the thing in your mind that you thought the most is you were paying off your debt?

Mary: Surprisingly, I've got to tell you that the journey back was joyful. joyful! It was it was so wonderful each time that I would send money to a creditor it was just the happiest moment of my life. I was so confident that God was going to

28:12 take care of us and that he was honoring the decision I had made made to trust him and that he would take care of this as long as I was faithful to him. Which is something we're gonna talk about more in the in the in the seven rules. But I guess if I had any fears it was that I wouldn't be able to continue to work. Because I was making money and that was contributing to the household at all but I look back now and God had that all taken care of. I didn't have to worry. But honestly you know people think that paying back the debt must've been so torturous

28:53 but it wasn't because I knew I'd been forgiven. I knew that a greater power than myself is going to take care of this. I just needed to take the steps. I need to keep working. I needed to keep going. And it was it was joyful. Oh my goodness! I could probably write a book just about all of the miraculous wonderful things that happened and I think that is a principle we all can learn: do the next thing do the right thing, just keep going.

Julie: What are some of the things that your readers I have asked you or told you about lies that…in their head…like they just can’t get started?

29:34 The same kind of lies that I told myself that kept me in such a deep, deep horrible debt mess for so long. The first one is I'm just not good with money. Passing it off. Someone else will take care of me. Credit cards have a reason in our life and we should use them and if I need them I'm going to use them or another one is this is a big one for me. I am embarrassed to say this but it's actually honestly true. I blamed. I blamed everything. I blamed my parents because number one I was born into poverty which I really wasn't but I thought it was.

30:15 My parents didn't pay for me to go to college. I had to work. Boo-hoo. Poor me. My parents didn't leave me an inheritance… that really bugged me. That bothered me and every time I had a friend or hurt someone or my grandfather left me $100,000 I was just going to spend some more just to get back at the whole situation….I didn't marry a rich man and I didn't do all of those things that I always thought would be my… you know, that would be how I would become wealthy I guess. I suppose I should've put it into words it sounds so silly now, but I just had all those thoughts.

30:57 Those kind of lies we tell ourselves… I have people write to me: I'm so overwhelmed, I’m just paralyzed. Well, I do understand that feeling. I think that it would've been nearly impossible for me to imagine that I would have someday gotten out of debt. I wish I would've known then. I think that I would've had an easier time, but I'm grateful for the misery. I am very grateful for the misery because that is what finally brought me to my knees. So if it took that so be it because solvency, financial freedom is so blessed and so beautiful.

31:38 it's so wonderful and I want that for everybody who's listening to me now 

Julie: This question is kind of a follow up- how do you think that money impacts our relationships and how is it for you?

Mary: I tell you what that that's one of the worst things about debt is the way that it ruins relationships. the first one is is trust-trust- the way that we handle money tells other people how much they can trust us. My husband stop trusting me. Trust is a very, very precious commodity in any relationship.

32:15 Whether its with your children with your parents with friends with a spouse. Once that you have broken that trust it has to be earned back. That's very very difficult and I believe the reason that so many marriages break up over financial issues they say. Statistics bear that out. I think with the deeper issues trust, My husband should've never trusted me again—ever. But he does and I'm so grateful that that has been restored because I didn't deserve that. I did not deserve that. I did terrible, horrible things that he should've never, ever trusted me again. He loves me and he trusts me.

32:56 Julie: and he’s been here for a good many years.

Mary:  Yes, our marriage did last. You know I have to make sure I let people know that when I tell my story because it sounds like it would've ended up in in in divorce. Here's the funny thing if he was here right now he would tell you that it never crossed his mind. I had made that all up in my head. I was so worried he would leave me and take the kids with him if he found out that I just kept digging the hole deeper and deeper deeper to try and make sure he never ever found out. Which is so dumb. I mean I look back now and how could I be so ignorant, but that’s over and yes I’m so grateful. We've been married for a long long time

33:49 Julie:  it's funny how one lie builds on another in our minds and then we just make up these more lies that we live by, by not facing the truth.

Mary: I think a lot of times that they're built on myths. Built on things we believe that aren't true. I'm a real big believer now in communication.

Julie:  All right, I have one more question because you had mentioned that there were several story you mentioned that there were several defining moments that were critical decision points on the way down that led you to the dark times. But then after your conversion, when you're on your journey back— where there defining moments that you can point to that kept you going?

34:39 Mary: Yes, oh yes. I can tell you it was exactly 10 days from when I was flat on my face on that floor and when I asked God to forgive me and promise I would do anything to come back to pay off the debt. Honestly, in my mind I thought I would be a good wife. My husband would go back to work. He’d find a great job and I would become a great money manager, well that wasn't to be at all. I got that phone call. Exactly 10 days… Harold and I were not even speaking to each other still.

35:06 Mary: and I got offered this job to come to work as a property— industrial commercial property manager is there anything more outlandish? I've never even heard of industrial commercial? what is the property manager? and that was a defining moment. I said may I call you back I went and told my husband the call I had gotten. And we started to talk just about that and had I said no to that offer, well I don't know what would've happened because that was absolutely a defining moment because that developed into an entire career in industrial commercial real estate in the city of Los Angeles…you’ve heard of that place right? 

35:57 Julie: right. 

Mary: A great industrial center. I'll just tip my hand a little bit here. I went on to become the very first woman ever asked to serve on the Board of Directors of the American Industrial Real Estate Association of Los Angeles -  wow  - only God could've done that. So that was a defining moment another defining moment was was when I… oh my goodness…10 years now after that moment on the floor, decided that I would do something crazy.

36:30 Well, this was a defining moment, because who would have ever thought of this? I would start writing a newsletter that I could share some of what I learned about managing money with other people. That was a defining moment. Which that led to the cheapskate monthly on to Debt-Proof Living and so on. I guess I could talk for a couple more hours about defining moments. Do you want to wait? Or we can do this later.

Julie: Well, I hope we hear more defining moments as we go through these 7 rules. Is there anything else?

Mary: I’m sure we will… I just want to encourage everyone to join us for the next episode and do this: share this podcast with your friends. It's not all about debt. It’s about managing money. It’s fun. It’s about all the things we can do to do better in our lives. It’s a way we can become friends. I want to hear from you. I want to build relationship. I know some of you have been with me for many many years. I'm so excited to get to talk to you finally. So yeah, I would love it if you would share the podcast in anyway that you can. that will ensure that would be able to  continue to do this. Great being with you today!

Debt-Proof Living with Mary Hunt was created and hosted by, Mary Hunt. Produced by Julie Emerson, with Harold Hunt, Executive Producer.

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