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1:05

Hello. I'm looking to decoder on the on photo

1:07

editor in chief of the Verge and Decoder is

1:09

my show about big ideas know

1:12

through, some sodas little different I'm talking. To

1:14

Michael to beat the president of the Block

1:17

Chain Association of Print, the

1:19

terrible unprovoked war in Ukraine

1:21

has destabilized the country's economy

1:24

and banking, system leading both Ukrainian.

1:26

Politicians and citizens to

1:28

more seriously consider, crypto currency

1:31

that as Decoder was says now I'm pretty

1:33

skeptical of crypto but skeptical want

1:35

crypto come by the skepticism honestly I

1:38

really. Wanted to understand more about what

1:40

was happening with Crypto currency happening Scranton,

1:42

in addition to being the president of the Blocks and

1:44

Association of Ukraine, Michael was also

1:47

the founder of. The connection which

1:49

lets people by crypto currencies and, swap

1:51

between them for earlier this year the

1:53

ukrainian government set up while it's on tonight

1:55

and other changes to accept donations

1:58

the war effort and crypto In. April

2:00

Bloomberg reported that the Ukrainian government has received

2:03

over sixty million dollars in crypto

2:05

donations what's, more earlier

2:07

this year Ukrainian President Vermeers once

2:09

he also signed a virtual assets. No into

2:11

law which will recognize crypto

2:13

currency as an asset in Ukraine when

2:15

the war's over, his president

2:18

of much in association Michael Lobbied from

2:20

Saw was use your and. Talk about, especially

2:22

in the context of how little safe he has

2:24

in the Ukrainian banking system, he

2:26

says, several times that even before the

2:29

war, the banking systems and be tested.

2:31

And that for large transactions people

2:33

were already using already combination of crypto

2:36

and dollars instead of

2:38

Ukraine's actual currency which is the

2:40

rift me, rift know it's interesting because

2:42

throughout. The course this conversation use your dollars

2:44

come up, and not Michael says most

2:47

popular crypto currency in Ukraine is tethered,

2:49

for us deeps that's stable

2:51

coin is backed. By the US dollars

2:53

in was supposed to be a, one to one ratio,

2:56

one dollar per ten point now

2:59

there are lots of questions about how stable

3:01

coins. Really are right now stable

3:04

for coins called Sarah is currently crushing

3:06

value and there's sarah lot of controversy

3:08

about whether tethered as, the financial reserves

3:10

to pack up. your

3:12

fear michael expressed reservations

3:15

about us what i

3:17

came back several times is my

3:19

main question of crypto currency Which

3:21

is why do people only care about it because

3:23

the care about dollars? We went back

3:25

and forth summer and so good conversation. That

3:28

we don't prove some sense of decoder on bitcoin

3:30

and same coins if you want to know more, and of course

3:32

Versa for at least the Pato has done a

3:34

ton of reporting on what she calls weird

3:37

Internet money, especially the recent

3:39

stable plane crash. The have links

3:41

to all of that in the show notes if you want to

3:43

learn more. Okay, Michael,

3:45

to bring it here, we go.

3:59

Damien, you are the founder

4:01

as Accoona Exchange, are also the president

4:03

of a block same Association of Ukraine

4:06

welcome to decoder. I'm

4:08

very appreciative that you may the time some be on the show

4:11

and as things in Ukraine are quite.

4:13

tense and quite complex but hey it's

4:15

importance it's got what you have been doing

4:17

There you graduate,

4:20

from Columbia here is I'd say Super in London

4:22

you work in tech in Ukraine,

4:25

we must a tosser americans american

4:27

companies are shouting just gimme brief.

4:30

description what were you

4:32

working on random second string have to make move

4:34

into crypto The I was working

4:36

in the telecom company.

4:38

I. Was in charge of for business development

4:41

play, the cbd oh now it's cold or

4:43

we were at the first company

4:46

to watch shirt three gene UKraine,

4:48

he was based. On CDM a standard like

4:50

that fake American standard them to Europe

4:53

soldier some soldier anyway at

4:55

that time will launch this first three gene UKraine

4:57

and that was quite. amazing and

5:00

The couple of months later

5:02

I saw that the Yeah Mobile

5:04

Truck thing is growing really fast

5:07

and dates had to the fiber,

5:09

optic the year fixed line internet. and

5:12

i saw that the saw traffic is not going as

5:14

fast so for me was quite obvious that everything

5:17

is gonna go mobile especially after

5:19

the yeah phone Was

5:21

released so that's one, I yeah, was

5:23

starting to get interested in everything mobile,

5:26

so using mobile as

5:28

the at Universal T

5:30

to the digital world with go with that way.

5:33

Then. I went to Columbia London Business

5:36

School and Hong Kong University to do my

5:38

Yeah executive M. B. A. Degree and,

5:40

during that time always says "socializing

5:43

with a lot of" People have lot of diversity

5:45

with their from different countries nations,

5:48

are one of the guys said well what's

5:50

happening with the digital marketing and your, country

5:53

as at. It is booming and he asked me

5:55

about asked question so are you? in his own

5:58

effort wise Good.

6:00

Answer that question is why it's so,

6:03

off with while I'm not doing it is for considering

6:05

that I have the technical background that see

6:08

the traffic is growing. So quiet that the

6:10

mobo it's gonna, take over the

6:12

world so that's why Lydia started

6:14

my own digital marketing, and

6:17

was studio so Mr We were didn't like

6:19

simple. Stuff crazy basis for the company's

6:22

cruising website mobile labs

6:24

know, that stuff and than the time

6:27

when I. actually yeah i found out

6:29

about the bitcoin one of the projects we were

6:31

developing Then. Would care

6:33

about the digital banks at the time didn't

6:35

exist in Ukraine and the world a few

6:38

examples in the world and, so we were

6:40

you can dig the marketing. Research on what's

6:42

happening, but the money in the world and

6:44

I was two thousand eleven on that

6:46

was time when was first introduced to

6:48

bitcoin so was like. Be cool though financial

6:51

system, of fine with

6:53

electronic money, a lot of

6:55

institutions and that was the like small

6:57

bitcoin like eaten as

6:59

couldn't fit into any of. The

7:02

bubbles that would, draw I

7:04

forgot what the hell is bitcoin or this and this

7:06

additional currency food additional decentralized

7:08

he has nothing to do to the CSs

7:11

them I. Like what was the fiercest, the know that

7:13

economic crisis of it's always

7:15

difficult question that almost, no now

7:18

to be honest didn't believe in bitcoin and two

7:20

thousand and. eleven that was dumb as remember

7:23

now he was a. dropping to you

7:25

from thirty to three dollars didn't

7:28

quite spend that much time on know studying

7:30

work with to be quite the. next

7:32

on as shook hands with hands bitcoin was bitcoin two

7:34

thousand and thirteen one the i'm a

7:37

pro or banking system happened and

7:39

happened lot of investors the as they turned

7:41

out to be way to try to save their

7:43

money from the government under

7:46

that were buying bitcoin and i'm like

7:48

well see you can use bitcoin to

7:50

avoid government sanctioned

7:53

I don't like this could be interesting, so this

7:55

the minutes one Asia I'm studying doing

7:57

bitcoin, you know, full time don't.

8:00

Anything else, apart from that, so

8:02

April two thousand and two thirteen, which

8:04

means it's exactly ten years and one

8:06

month.

8:07

Interesting and,

8:09

and how things have changed and ten years one month

8:12

oh yeah so I want to start you out what

8:14

is having vaccine Ukraine now where odyssey

8:16

the entire country is under stress Russia's.

8:20

once the war The country's money back

8:22

to see going well. Right

8:24

there's a lot of destabilization, he can see

8:26

why bitcoin be interesting in that context

8:29

right now, so as I would have a before.

8:32

We do that just to help me understand solution.

8:35

For the war. What was

8:37

the tech industry in Ukraine like, what was the status

8:39

of bitcoin or crypto currency, Dawson, Ukraine

8:41

like before the war? In terms

8:44

of for them.

8:45

Number of groups a user's per

8:47

capita according, to the

8:49

lot of resources ukraine was always

8:51

was scope the first Among

8:53

the top five. Then. Read and for that

8:56

is a we have fantastic

8:58

internet penetration the

9:00

average speed the like getting closer

9:02

to one gigabyte that's average for

9:04

the whole country than,

9:07

lot of. Mobile phones and

9:09

really bad banking system like

9:12

this shit is banking system, you can december

9:14

much of that causes anything like

9:16

literally they don't have the if you want to

9:18

see. A service this, they now you can do about why,

9:20

because National Bank that now obviously

9:23

in this kind of five situation, but what

9:25

of countries are in similar situations,

9:27

especially developing? One where the banking

9:29

system is so by you call and like send

9:31

money abroad you can't take out of money

9:34

you can't put money into the bank, if

9:36

something because. Together, you know,

9:38

happen in the economy had been to government,

9:40

decided that your money is now government

9:42

money and us and did a few times, so

9:45

we don't trust the banking. System we don't

9:47

trust the government we don't trust,

9:49

anyone and now we

9:51

have like Earth system which

9:53

doesn't require you to trust any.

9:56

particular person it belongs

9:58

to everyone and said no one At

10:00

the same time.

10:01

It's booty decentralized. And with

10:03

the oil of different groups, as you can go,

10:05

a hundred percent decentralised, or you

10:07

can go away. So, wise

10:10

that and you can choose you on A

10:12

smart contracts, or you just want to make sure

10:14

that everything is good with your Bitcoin.

10:16

So it's amazing system or

10:18

a what

10:26

you doing. of the kicker is

10:28

ready for it. up but anyway

10:31

i have to be nice survivor They

10:33

will be your movies than the other way I see

10:35

the trial is while and then it's just

10:37

a matter of time so. Just

10:41

like where the she has system they gonna lose it

10:43

was in is gonna was as well so as

10:45

bold prediction: I just want to find out

10:48

you've got pretty to the war will end in the see

10:50

our currency system or. We.

10:52

Get our suffice with the A with the banking

10:55

system, but them yeah, lead

10:57

the world was is gonna change so much

10:59

that the traditional feared system has

11:01

no chance anyway so. What

11:03

was to combat that I went Ukraine before

11:05

the war so he doesn't know the status of crypto

11:08

currency for where he said of take was high

11:10

is making system is. Bad the say

11:13

was not, and it still is what

11:15

we have a war, but it's gotta go into

11:17

action at least

11:19

maybe next year and no one knows when

11:21

exactly. Because because the word

11:24

"the yeah, the ministries I like worried

11:26

about winning the war" and not like addressing

11:28

the yeah we're implementing the or so"

11:30

and a momentary the decrypt there. Is nothing in

11:33

it doesn't exist? Then. Either stop

11:35

us because as I saw your, we don't trust

11:37

the government, so we don't really need any a government

11:39

official saying that bitcoin or something or

11:41

we don't need any. Documents that will prove

11:44

that bitcoin is something so we just use

11:46

it didn't exist when we use of them with car

11:48

by the government.

11:49

Are you doing just for two things in the contrast

11:52

her which? i think is interesting

11:54

you mention that the worst of it the telecom provider

11:57

as far as innocent ukraine The only

11:59

really has one. What on provider with

12:01

that out on provider was? Really

12:03

fast the three d. And then

12:05

on top of it has delivered very fast

12:08

internet to mercy. The medium

12:10

speed for at United States is not a gig. It's

12:13

barely two hundred. The

12:15

producers I'm proud complain about United

12:17

Socialist all day and on it, but in one

12:19

sense it seems I guarantee a very good job

12:22

of delivering internet access in Ukraine.

12:25

For whatever reason, I'm curious for you inside there

12:27

cuz you have a successful

12:31

a project

12:34

11

12:35

project.

12:38

We have the project with your cold, dear. This

12:40

is an app which enables

12:43

you to have your online passport,

12:45

for the international travel. For

12:47

like local travel. You have like your

12:49

car driver license, you have the documents

12:51

for your car and told him that I'm done.

12:54

Are he goes to the physical documents

12:56

and he was this project was I in two thousand

12:59

and nineteen for were the first country with a digital

13:01

password which is equal? To the paper

13:03

past, but I think that's the on me

13:05

a successful project that we have in Ukraine,

13:08

the rest of the government projects mean I just

13:10

found it is still. The money that said so

13:12

when he would last a the Internet it's

13:14

not because the government did something is

13:16

just because the go and didn't do anything family.

13:20

crypto If they

13:22

don't make problems than this, the industry

13:24

develops if government counted as

13:26

a different industries that.

13:28

Age by the way, like right when something there was a single

13:30

dollars on provider.

13:32

The monopolize itself and others were

13:34

competition and you can, friend.

13:36

There. Was a long time ago and that

13:38

he was slightly different from

13:40

when you're saying, but doesn't matter was on the

13:43

government, provide service where you could do

13:45

back like fifteen. Years ago, if

13:47

you want to start off telecom operators, all

13:49

you need is to buy some Cisco's and

13:52

by fiber optic cable t

13:54

or sister's server and then

13:56

based you. We had to do is just do.

13:58

the wiring six year old it Then. Apartments around

14:00

you so you could do, I choose a couple of blocks

14:03

unable to just, you know, take the even

14:05

at war, I do you draw the holes

14:07

in the walls. And and so on and you bring it to the house

14:10

is that how you can that does how you connected

14:12

via or your subscribers to the Internet

14:14

or that said you. Have been to that provider you didn't have to

14:16

ask anyone yeah do that and,

14:19

always risky changed now it's more civilized

14:21

so you have to get permission to stay

14:23

at home or so on but anyway and

14:25

of time before the government came a lot

14:27

of wire was already in the houses

14:29

so that's why it's really cheap it's

14:32

cheap gigabyte is already there so

14:34

There. Is no monopoly on the to that in Ukraine

14:36

as well so there is no were eyes and there is no eighteen't

14:38

t so if you want to be internet

14:40

providers to. Get your own fiber optic

14:42

from Europe and he will go, you can do it also

14:45

and wholesale yeah same and nail in

14:47

the crypto, so there is no government to

14:49

asked. To do something.

14:51

That's. Why a soap opera, yeah, I want to make

14:53

that comparison because read, these

14:55

are two big infrastructure projects

14:57

that, depending what country are and like a relationship

14:59

with the government, I.D. And for social programs,

15:02

the relationship the government to infrastructure like money.

15:04

Very different any A you have experience

15:06

in both say it's interesting to draw that the

15:08

contrast to successful,

15:10

in i had to point Perhaps Access

15:13

woke up to the point. That is broadly

15:15

before we get into crypto in this woman Ukraine

15:18

what. was the tech industry in the same like

15:20

before the

15:21

Swimming. Is well we have a lot of bright

15:24

people very, educated so

15:26

I got the higher education level

15:28

in Ukraine is ninety six

15:30

percent or some other, so

15:33

we are. Motivated people, we have a lot of

15:35

sex people, so we have ricotta cheese

15:37

strong universities fake ID,

15:39

universities and that's why we have want

15:41

to buy cheaper smell in. General

15:43

were you know people here are

15:46

more, mathematically inclined so

15:48

that's why yeah we have combination of really

15:50

fast the into that fast lot of whoever?

15:53

developers id developers and

15:56

crypto Though it was booming.

15:58

You know, we did he and. The billions and billions

16:01

for days and transactions

16:03

for the whole country because like even

16:06

huge market works hundred

16:08

percent and crypto so he. was

16:10

big

16:12

We need to take a quick break, but when we come back we'll

16:14

talk about how crypto currency was being used in Ukraine

16:17

before the war and is Michael see

16:19

that it's benefits that.

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The just wanted to give people that foundation before

18:51

our break.

18:52

You said you have an educated population assassin

18:54

at there are interested in using crypto

18:57

then. the war happens Tell

19:00

me what has happened with

19:02

Crypto in Ukraine since the war began.

19:05

So obviously a lead

19:08

to more humid down. probably

19:10

three to four times The reason

19:13

for that day's before the war

19:15

most of the grey market and grey market

19:17

in Ukraine's from the sixty percent of GDP

19:20

was. using crypto as the core

19:22

banking system You. Can

19:24

use traditional by city and the grey market

19:27

know that many people actually use banking,

19:29

you know, for business because it's useless

19:31

you come by US dollars you kind of. These it has sent

19:33

swift and sauce with groups are awash

19:36

your question the if you want to do it you to do it

19:38

as, to therefore a lot of businesses. Worked

19:41

on the crypto, and

19:43

now since the war is, this huge

19:46

market they close some

19:48

of them are destroyed so therefore there is

19:50

no employed there is no. Demand for crypto

19:52

that's why he. has fallen and

19:54

the second reason people don't really

19:57

speculate right now because most

19:59

of the year The Crypto. I

20:02

don't want to call them Investors Crypto.

20:04

holders they came when they're a

20:07

in the past year anniversary edition

20:09

of the richest people in the world so when

20:11

the war happened the last thing that

20:13

we're thinking it was crypto said they wanted

20:16

to buy some food for their families

20:18

they needed they new shelter because most

20:20

of the city kharkiv

20:22

like big cities had to free to the

20:24

other countries or western part of

20:26

ukraine The rotation

20:28

mental image you have to spend more money so

20:31

that he had the speculation volume

20:33

was from bit sometimes down from

20:36

mile from the pre war time.

20:38

The year looking for bitcoin market now

20:41

you're posting the prices fall, the

20:43

rest of the crypto market is.

20:46

I would say chaos at this moment in time and,

20:48

then you take out speculation and you take

20:51

out grey market transactions what

20:53

is bitcoin be used for

20:55

in ukraine right now

20:56

The major use cases first one

20:58

is humanitarian aid.

21:01

So they found to a girl like

21:03

line: "We use crypto to

21:05

pay for goods in there

21:08

in Europe or in us, can

21:10

we just we specific your", he said, crypto "Are you

21:12

saying crypto, inclusive those bitcoin

21:14

into Syria him, I say inclusive of more

21:17

crypto currencies are?" The awake three

21:19

main currencies are we use in a fun

21:22

as the bitcoin either and use

21:24

the t on lot from that work

21:27

this. out a to currencies and once okay

21:30

The three I used to pay for, like

21:32

bulletproof vest, for example, are

21:34

the reason that people were using, like

21:36

the songs the volunteer, as the regular

21:38

people, the using and crypto. Very

21:41

simple reason for is no other way that

21:43

you could pay for something here outside of Ukraine

21:46

because the foreign exchange market

21:48

is close to two very specific

21:51

companies so, you feel like

21:53

I'm not in the or

21:55

petrol and her business or in

21:57

the food or and. wherever

21:59

the Monday's. They're requiring

22:02

at the moment he won't be able to buy

22:04

US dollar, say she called by you as doors

22:06

of this you call important anything, so

22:08

the only other solution to. Buy something

22:10

outside of Ukraine is on be using crypto

22:13

so that's the first use case we use it as

22:15

international payment means of international

22:17

payments the, second use gave

22:19

his. Savings savings lot of people were

22:21

converted, cast money into

22:24

crypto, it's a much safer,

22:26

it's easier to carry, you know,

22:28

you can take your phone or leisure or

22:31

have written down. [Mnemonic] Phrase with

22:33

you, he doesn't wage thing and cash

22:35

in way to waste lot of kilos and

22:37

them can be easily taken away from

22:39

you by the bad. Guys, so

22:41

we're saving two major use case

22:44

Then the war started in late February

22:47

and. You said, oh, my gosh, you're going to put the. Iranian

22:50

to bitcoin. Your savings would have

22:52

plummeted. Precipitously from

22:54

now until then. The doing it to give savings

22:57

vehicle. Shit happens whether

22:59

it's much better than the well first of all.

23:02

Then. Way to people do in Ukraine saving

23:04

is not one that when they carry money

23:06

to the bank and the put it in the deposit

23:08

in the back know doesn't work either. We

23:11

don't trust the bank said Soldier See for

23:13

have lot of money by, what of money

23:15

for Ukraine and mean. probably

23:18

hundred thousand dollars and above They.

23:20

Throw that kind of money the last think

23:22

you will think about is actually bring

23:25

it to the bank because once you bring it

23:27

to the bank that the likelihood is.

23:29

The you gonna get them back is very

23:31

slim, they'll find way why to tell

23:33

you if gonna take them out, you could

23:35

sell them to grew louder the, would you? Your grip,

23:37

nobody, they can, you cannot say, cause this

23:40

whole amount because the gas, your fancy

23:42

two thousand questions were you gonna use

23:44

the cash for, then they'll find

23:46

it was. Saying that you cannot take out the window

23:48

and the, you know, certain amount of cash bubble

23:50

up so people don't bring it to the back

23:53

when people store and cash cash.

23:55

You as dollars because,

23:57

he can be easily taken away by the go

24:00

What a store and crypto,

24:02

or are they used to buy houses

24:04

or apartments in big city?

24:07

Which was a big mistake these,

24:10

are the only have three options are we don't have

24:12

stock market so you kind of buy stocks, so

24:14

the only option? as gas

24:17

like he physically store guys but

24:20

it devalues because of inflation you

24:22

have crypto and the third option

24:24

is to square meters So

24:26

I'm from least when are you even

24:29

if you bought the take coins or either

24:31

like two months ago when was not nearly

24:34

three months ago he? probably

24:36

was male fast Or maybe

24:38

yeah. They. represent rubber you

24:40

but yeah and was everything and

24:43

there is very good chance that this might

24:45

go up just mess about to because bitcoin

24:47

has limited supply so.

24:50

I'm not much better, scenario

24:52

than the oil square meters and

24:54

key of or in hockey war or in my

24:56

real pull car's dad doesn't cost

24:59

anything so my. house i have

25:01

a house outside of key It doesn't

25:03

cost anything, there is no demands, zero zero,

25:05

doesn't matter what the bridesmaids have no sense

25:07

of snow on the, but yeah. You know,

25:09

you can imagine that what happens to the saving

25:12

the people who spend it all on the

25:14

apartments. They may try that, you know,

25:16

it's. That's the best solution: Crypto

25:19

on me. Caesar there for

25:21

use cases with I don't see what's the third. The

25:23

terrorism probably him. Prices.

25:26

Within the country so,

25:28

for example, if you want their as side

25:31

you have cash in one city and you wanna

25:33

take out cash in the city instead

25:35

of driving. Under a being at risk

25:37

you could use groups, oh, so you buy Crypto Month

25:40

City and then that you rise to

25:42

the other city and you sell groups of for cash.

25:44

And he will go you know you will cost you

25:46

have. zero point three to zero

25:48

point five percent depending on the city's

25:51

that said you use crypto just to

25:53

transfer of cash from one point to another

25:55

There must be happening and bitcoin or Syria

25:58

or us to to. Here it is. People

26:00

trust used it, yeah, unfortunately hear back

26:02

to the said why I mean for this use case,

26:04

the about our preferred die from make

26:07

your done. For the utility

26:09

of their as a token or on

26:11

the company, each other in Alpha

26:14

lot of questions. Yeah,

26:16

anyways is the most populous book one

26:18

here, so I would you say broadly

26:20

in the market right, we're watching stable coins

26:23

experience a great amount of struggle. There

26:26

and lunar. In

26:28

what appeared to be death spiral?

26:30

Are you seeing that for us city in Ukraine

26:32

as well that is a real risk?

26:35

A lot in Ukraine used to tease goebbels,

26:37

I see a risk for the whole, tell her, how

26:39

do you think that risk is expressed? The risk

26:41

that they just printed a lot of other, which

26:43

is not the backed by anything. There

26:46

is risk that if that's true that

26:48

it's big problem the second question

26:50

his reputation media.

26:53

You know shows together as like an evil

26:55

corporation which is Grayish

26:58

says, not as valid as for

27:00

example used to see by Yeah Queen

27:03

base in circles so these two companies

27:05

are probably they're like regulated

27:07

and tether is like. mean

27:09

of the big but it is from someone

27:12

who was in trouble before Then

27:15

I think there's if there's it's troubling there

27:17

could be problems in a future, hopefully

27:19

not but. The one in the

27:21

thirties, his there.

27:23

To me is kind of the most interesting place to start

27:25

which is transfer within the country near,

27:28

describing country where even before the war

27:30

the banking system is not trusted perhaps

27:32

useful. you want i buy

27:34

goods and services in ukraine Maybe

27:37

this isn't a push. Where

27:40

crypto? currency actually becomes the

27:42

currency of country We

27:45

haven't really seen it. The happened before.

27:48

What what you're describing as people move

27:51

their money to your city they travel? Some

27:54

of us did he for dollars on the transaction dollars

27:56

or people actually transacting directly in crypto

27:58

currency there. Oh yeah, I

28:00

know the house mentioned bought for use the see.

28:03

The owner of the house is happy and willing to

28:05

take you a C. T. but us he was stand-in for dollars,

28:08

yeah, and in agreements pay you,

28:10

you might as well as transfer dollars right

28:12

with some proxy.

28:14

How? Are you gonna transfer dollars,

28:16

I mean, in that case, would need to get

28:18

a big bag, put lot of cash

28:20

and as which I don't have because of? A store

28:23

and cast than take them back

28:25

to take a risk that someone could does

28:27

stop in, you know, take away this cash from me

28:30

or we're shoot me or something. else

28:32

but what's the point if you can just,

28:34

you know, presses luke few clicks, you

28:36

convert the either to use

28:38

the T and than that Sunday used it to

28:40

you directly? from do this for

28:42

my exchange the said Though.

28:45

It's much easier it is it's fast, it's

28:47

secure it, the I have a proof on the block,

28:49

saying that I did this transaction, which is also

28:51

important for Ukraine's because.

28:54

told you we don't trust the government, so we don't trust

28:56

the year representative of the

28:58

government, the Lakers, solicitors or anyone

29:00

else, so yes, group

29:02

so is, is there already? Or

29:04

people buying groceries in?

29:06

Any records or currencies are they buying gas how's

29:09

that working now AH so

29:11

the crypto is used mainly for of transactions,

29:15

above? i'll say thousand

29:17

to five thousand dollars

29:19

If. You're spending bill old are you

29:21

have local currency, which is

29:23

really good example of his L money

29:26

there is a term because the money on know

29:28

some where is basically. Yeah the

29:30

money that devalues really quickly

29:33

there, is incentive for you to spend

29:35

it as fast possible so if

29:37

you use that system then. theoretically

29:40

the economy will love will grow because

29:43

people would because spending all the time so

29:46

they have no incentive to save this currency

29:48

they have incentive to spend so this

29:50

is good example out where explanation of

29:52

ukraine and grim that it's devaluing

29:55

by twenty thirty you may

29:57

be sixteen ten percent

30:00

The minimum of ten per year. That.

30:03

By official statistics, but it's only before

30:05

we don't trust the government so I guess the real

30:08

real, inflation is probably close to

30:10

twenty percent that's why see if

30:12

you compare. Prices a year to

30:15

year of your and you know typical

30:17

grocery store up for it's as. sorry

30:20

as close to twenty percent The

30:22

what's the point of for hobbling in

30:24

local currency if you? Guaranteed.

30:27

That inflation is gonna eat it and,

30:30

then, then change rate

30:32

is the one to twenty

30:35

seven or was before the war

30:38

so for you if you want a. Store

30:40

like I Dunno hundred thousand dollars that's

30:42

why got two point seven million grimness

30:45

and as if you're lucky you're

30:47

got the five hundred, notes which

30:50

means the bag. Will wait approximately,

30:52

thirty kilos during

30:55

Sonia help carry around thirty two.

30:57

as of paper notes

30:59

as so ah The

31:01

have to sway that's because in you as the

31:04

gonna like you to have these problems don't

31:07

you can open the I. Exactly.

31:09

So your devices used to live with us

31:11

so odd the banking system, their works perfectly,

31:14

you know, if your insides of banking

31:16

system you're okay as long as

31:18

you don't. Leave dig into system you can

31:20

send an email to any other

31:22

person or a company the bank is gonna

31:25

ask you questions if you have like valid money

31:27

and it's. In their system if you wanna

31:29

could use crypto you can easily use groups

31:31

are in you as you can pay for lot of stuff

31:34

with the crypto with. ukraine

31:36

is different so different you're buying something

31:38

about five hundred dollars you

31:40

will be sinking in us dollars

31:42

crisis in terms of years doors but

31:44

if i serve for example and milk

31:47

or The loaf of bread.

31:49

Or out and are what else could be cheap, you

31:52

know, like typical goods that the U Boy

31:54

everyday you're thinking, and local currencies

31:56

would once you pass the threshold of

31:58

approximately five hundred.

32:00

Once. You start to think your doors so

32:02

if you want to buy a car you're thinking indoors,

32:04

if your by want to buy house you're

32:06

thinking doors you want to buy. An iPhone or

32:08

any phone if it's more or less expensive

32:11

phone he will be indoors if it's cheap phone

32:13

they will be in Grimness so.

32:15

i'm The different stories for

32:17

so, for I use the T is the is based

32:19

the and bank account in US dollars

32:21

without the government control. Because

32:24

you can't open the you as always account

32:26

and easily transfer US dollars from wanna

32:28

go into the holocaust it's impossible you gotta do

32:30

it because, the banking system

32:33

is yet. to receive iceweb

32:35

a person that little harder because it's

32:38

fascinates me Just conceptually,

32:40

there are two. The currencies

32:43

in Ukraine and I am.

32:45

Messing up the pronunciation.

32:48

the ukraine local currency in english in think

32:50

it's revere live near as good the agreement

32:52

is very good yesterday so yeah so that's

32:54

a currency the up The you got to

32:56

currencies are kind of open running it once was

32:58

grizzly or and the small side and. Most

33:01

importantly, dollars. The

33:03

high side. In the crypto,

33:05

were crypto comes in as you're describing it

33:08

is U.S. City is proxy

33:10

for dollars to is easily transacted?

33:13

The digitally.

33:14

Without the government getting in your way and you don't need a

33:16

bank sql server to tell you how

33:18

many dollars you have, which is the? It

33:20

with my bank that's effectively with happening, they have database

33:23

and I trust the database. Whatever

33:26

cinema trust United States government, the as a

33:28

government has backstop the bank's database,

33:30

so I think my money is safe.

33:33

You're saying okay, but you a city is on

33:35

the blushing anybody can read it and he's trust anybody

33:37

else but at the end of the day it's

33:39

still dollars. Yeah,

33:42

it's not bitcoin.

33:44

The our first of all you have to distinguish

33:47

between the money.

33:50

use for regular transactions

33:52

and savings

33:54

If you want to save, you definitely don't

33:56

keep the use the see a you invested

33:59

into and the. Groups according to like

34:01

real crypto currency because,

34:03

there is no point of from holding

34:05

on to use the t

34:07

Because the lower has inflation, so

34:09

are you are choosing every year? Then.

34:12

Crypto and especially if

34:14

you're doing your investment blog for like

34:16

three plus years you are most

34:18

likely to with that would history

34:21

thousand so, yeah so if

34:23

you wanna. Do transactions news he is

34:25

the see if you wanna do investment

34:27

for saving than you use bitcoin

34:29

and either or any other crypto, I

34:32

would suggest bitcoin either but that's.

34:34

Not investment. advice fair

34:37

enough the reason i'm pushing on this is

34:39

because it seems like the war in ukraine

34:42

Even as an enormous humanitarian crisis it's a

34:44

tragedy and we'll wish it had not happened

34:47

but. it is also point

34:49

at which you might see acceleration of trends

34:52

That you might see acceleration of crypto usage

34:54

and transactions or, in savings

34:56

or

34:57

That you don't trust the government or the banks already

35:00

now they've kind of don't even exist.

35:03

So you might see this rapid acceleration

35:05

and usage. What you're describing, though,

35:07

is usage is actually gone down. Then

35:10

reliance on the. The

35:13

same coin pegged for Docile what reason is

35:15

actually kind of the important piece of the puzzle in,

35:17

I'd just like in the whole conversation. blushing

35:20

and crypto currencies you start out by saying see

35:22

a frenzy would go away

35:25

Having this moment for pressure on the system such

35:27

that reliance on the dollar goes

35:29

up.

35:30

There's not seem like a step on the path towards

35:33

Mn. See currency will go away. It

35:36

seems like the opposite Septum.

35:39

Well first of all we have to look at the

35:41

time. scales so For

35:44

the fiercest them and for everything

35:46

they just sat there are like

35:48

different time scales system going

35:51

to happen once out I'm he

35:53

will be a general degradation

35:55

of see and system

35:57

equally. the same time the role

36:00

Krebs or would be growing. Like

36:03

the crypto crypt, are not stable coin. So

36:07

yeah the I don't see a contradiction

36:09

here to be honest and, me for me is

36:11

quite logical that the one saved another

36:13

one rises, and it happens

36:15

free much of the same time like the happened

36:17

to Ukraine says you can use the. yeah

36:20

see system to buy goods the

36:22

outside of ukraine be there was

36:24

ukraine vacuum and was vacuum was filled

36:26

with crypto What's? Unique with Ukraine

36:29

is we're the first country

36:31

in the world where a,

36:33

lot of high writing officials are

36:36

pro crypto now, so we

36:38

have an army which is.

36:40

Highly support of crypto because our

36:43

funded the equipped to find that is

36:45

buying or kind of humanitarian there

36:48

were defensive first up for

36:50

the. government you know we are more

36:52

efficient than any of the official

36:54

government Military. cigars

36:57

because you know for us it's eight

37:00

ten, minutes to confirm the block

37:02

on the bitcoin and with it's three

37:04

so thirty minutes today transaction

37:06

in the coin, and. It's done

37:08

it's paid for government they

37:10

need about week just to spend

37:12

the, money because they're so bureaucratic

37:15

they're need to write the year, and Weststar

37:18

legal papers. And the you

37:20

know has to be sent back and forth than

37:22

they had faced than week to get for the switch,

37:25

to reach us because the

37:27

banking system,. has told you before shit

37:30

for them with me told slow with the crypt of fun

37:32

but can buy anything like within

37:35

days you will deliver to ukraine not

37:37

weeks and last month like with the yes

37:40

system so now we have supporters

37:42

of crypto from the year old and military

37:45

from the police from the special

37:47

services from The

37:49

court for all. Get

37:52

older, go with like the Prime Minister, everyone,

37:54

they don't they know about this thought that how

37:56

good we do, so everyone now knows

37:58

that crypto actually. Saving and it's

38:00

really fish in the it's faster than it's convenient

38:04

and so on, and so on so is

38:06

unique situation because before they

38:08

were there was lot of skepticism and

38:10

by the top ranking officials of

38:12

the government. Now. They all know

38:14

about the bitcoin and then they know that he

38:16

can actually save lives in the akin

38:18

that cross the border and they can overcome

38:21

any obstacles that the national. Bank,

38:23

which is independent in Ukraine, unfortunately

38:26

could do on the so now

38:28

we have lot of support so after

38:30

the war as they will be just number

38:32

one cryptic country. The world.

38:36

We need to take another break, but when we come back, Michael makes

38:38

the case for turning the government of Ukraine

38:40

ensue and Dow or is decentralized

38:42

autonomous organization stick around.

38:47

Hydro. In this is Creighton on weed Producer

38:49

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41:05

The

41:09

back with my culture, been it?

41:12

One of things that you have talked about another

41:15

posh as interviews you've done is,

41:17

preventing people From

41:20

using rubles to buy in

41:22

to your exchanges or other exchanges he criticized

41:24

other changes for allowing transactions

41:27

and rebels obviously, the as proxy

41:30

towards. letting where the russian

41:32

people transact The explain

41:34

your criticism of allowing rebel

41:36

transactions. Oh, I

41:38

don't want to unpack.

41:40

How you can run a totally decentralized thing

41:42

and then impose rules like no rubles,

41:44

but first explain your criticism.

41:47

Though is the currency of the enemy?

41:50

So if you continue using the year

41:53

currency of enemy, you're helping them

41:55

either guess at the ruble

41:57

is used for some kind of economic.

42:00

Then. Energy and effort sales or

42:02

his economic activity, there is a benefit

42:04

to the economy if there is benefit for the economy

42:06

they can, you know, build more times

42:08

and does of. Them to Ukraine and try

42:10

to kill more people in my country if

42:13

we as the world decided that we,

42:15

impose sanctions the economy of the

42:17

country or visit the. ruble should

42:20

be shut down and the research, done

42:22

on. am not single exchange

42:25

should use the this currency for the moment

42:27

while at least until the are put in and

42:29

his regime in said power and are they

42:32

doing the war against or country said

42:34

that that's the main idea but if

42:36

you are crypto saying That.

42:39

The people use the rebels to buy

42:42

bitcoin. You think about should

42:44

be my not allowed? Shit

42:46

happens. It's there. Government.

42:50

That is sending troops to kill my people.

42:53

And some of the people

42:55

were using my exchange they stole

42:57

the you know nothing bad is happening in

42:59

my country like the Yeah the

43:02

troops as normal and,

43:04

did killing children is also normal.

43:06

so i mean I'm

43:09

against any violence or

43:11

mom, a libertarian,

43:13

so I'm against violence and the seen

43:16

on the economic mean. The

43:19

midst of we should use to fight against the

43:22

disinformation within Russia and,

43:24

i think the works now and unpacked middle of

43:26

it will you mean by using economic means to fail safes

43:28

it does information or us

43:30

Well. Like economic structure, so a they

43:32

are cut off from oldest civilized

43:35

services so you can use Amazon,

43:37

you can I go use a Netflix school

43:39

goes to forty five McDonald's cars.

43:42

Electronics Thompson that are all the big

43:45

brands of the world are

43:47

they said no, you cannot use our services

43:49

we don't want to be, you know, part of

43:52

of. The boy the regime so.

43:54

obvious the people who watched tv

43:56

and at the thing that this is special

43:59

operation As. For the benefit of Russia

44:02

will be the most of them will wake up when

44:04

they realize they can no longer watch

44:06

Netflix, no one wants to see them when

44:08

in their. Countries no one wants

44:10

to work with them, so obviously they're going to ask

44:12

question what the hell was going on, maybe or

44:14

maybe something is wrong with Russia notice

44:16

the rest. Of the world I'm, against

44:19

any sanctions even I was against

44:21

the ruble but the, it

44:23

it's a general trend and or

44:25

if we agreed that we try to fight.

44:27

Russia with economic means that, okay

44:30

we fight with they call me things he was painful

44:32

to my painful budget as. well so

44:35

are we immediately cut off about forty

44:37

percent of our remedies forty fuck that at least

44:39

i'll save the country you know

44:42

save yeah i agree with you just that

44:45

You see very idealistic we talk about crypto

44:47

currency buttons one of the core

44:49

pieces the ideals and right is it is decentralized

44:53

no. one can say no

44:55

Right now even how you begin talking about it and no one can

44:57

get in your way you can just do the things you want to do

45:00

and, so in a moment like this when

45:02

the I want you to stop paying for Netflix,

45:05

want you to stop paying for bitcoin like

45:07

you do need some. Elementary,

45:09

centralized or

45:11

a quasi centralize decision makers.

45:14

To make that decision and foot that economic

45:17

consequences. The was

45:20

nothing changes Saudi party put those two things

45:22

together that you. know crypto currency

45:24

is decentralized it works in ukraine

45:26

because we don't That's the banks were government.

45:29

How are you interested makes or government, but

45:31

I'm a flip side? Someone

45:34

you need to trust me enough to say.

45:37

You're not going to you get to the transaction rubles on

45:39

Kuhn Exchange, which Ira.

45:41

We'll listen but behind the ruble thing was

45:43

finished with that he's, every

45:46

single exchange with Carol frugal

45:48

and pretty much everyone now cuddle frugal it

45:50

means that ruble the

45:52

a digital real bullets call with our way the

45:54

banking system will. it could

45:57

be no longer used to buy crypto

46:00

Then. Only other way for them to boy

46:02

crypto is actually exit the rubles

46:04

out or I use dollars sounds

46:06

so is that savings within Russia,

46:09

though, just spend it all on crypto. And

46:12

stop supporting the ruble so,

46:15

we're in of the do some logic

46:17

there, with regards to

46:19

the global sanctions, and you

46:22

know what's happening in the world you. Know it's an

46:26

easy topic for discussion because it has so,

46:28

many layers and they

46:30

hire layers yoke they the

46:32

did more, complicated to get obviously.

46:35

We. gonna have to change and

46:38

The as he grows up, okay,

46:40

I'll give you good as opposed to have a friend in Russia.

46:44

Early as the quite wars business.

46:47

The reason is still.

46:50

Not saying much about the war

46:52

and he is not calling publicly

46:54

the war because you have to go with special

46:57

military operation for some really well for the

46:59

Russian propaganda and scale.

47:02

probably don't jimmy carter yeah

47:04

say is not saying much because

47:06

These guys that the second year

47:09

so some publicly something about the

47:11

and put in or the bar or army

47:13

or about the war or,

47:15

his assets will be frozen. so

47:18

if we are just saw are second

47:20

imagine what would happen if There

47:23

was no rowboat, I was crypto

47:25

instead of horrible. It

47:28

would mean that damn you would be just as

47:30

free as am because for.

47:32

me to leave the country or had to take

47:34

with me Is the micro

47:36

so but it was already outside of Ukraine

47:39

because Crypto? does our borders

47:41

so my government has No

47:44

influence on me at the moment.

47:47

Hello. I'm abroad I'm in

47:49

Switzerland and, and

47:51

my crew to with me all my assets

47:53

are with the war by from the house which doesn't

47:56

cost much. will it'll probably

47:58

in ukraine or know what right know So

48:00

it in a common as influence I can say anything

48:02

that are one about my gun. Will

48:04

be a centralized system like Russia

48:07

because the anything because you.

48:09

know the same thing will happen seeing as happened

48:11

to the founder of the i ching kuo flat

48:14

Then. Web yeah to sell for

48:16

a way cause two or three percent

48:19

of the value of he shares his

48:21

diet because on, on

48:23

Instagram you said that there, are

48:25

this? Is War and Day, which is still with immediate

48:28

that set the example of centralized

48:30

regime, and I'm and good example of decentralized

48:33

version because all my assets are in crypto

48:35

of. Their in their web there is nothing to come

48:37

when can do to me so there is no. censorship

48:41

and as mean one of the examples

48:43

of bob how you can answer wherever

48:45

you just ask me The I'm asking

48:47

questions, will I be horrible?

48:50

Zachary to answer but I'm asking for it he.

48:52

keeps are you are higher assets from the web see you

48:54

ever like a custodial wallet somewhere

48:57

and someone else is holding your crypto for it

48:59

Oh, no, no we're we

49:01

have our custody. The

49:03

lucia. Then. They want,

49:06

to see EG and there is not just

49:08

wander is like a couple and their

49:10

geographically is spread out

49:12

and there is like different protocols for every

49:15

single wallet. And then neither

49:17

is different currencies which are stored

49:19

differently so, yeah

49:21

it'll take out so young woman crypto since

49:24

two, thousand so I have.

49:26

all these years special case

49:28

run a but it's important as you

49:30

specific your regular ukrainian citizens

49:33

It would seem tempting to move all your assets

49:35

in the crypto and then maybe sign up with

49:37

the current exchange that couldn't change whole your assets

49:40

and then get out of the country right. Then

49:42

I got a level of risk that. I

49:45

would say so very high for an average person.

49:48

The Irish but damn again I'm the

49:50

only founder of the exchange you tell my

49:52

clients guys don't store

49:54

your crypto with me because it's

49:56

not your crypto it's my crypto you.

49:59

have Then. Year the blessing

50:01

by the god that, satoshi

50:03

nakamoto came up with the bitcoin and

50:05

you can story oh crap so

50:08

on your wallet with your private

50:10

keys are going. To it and us were published

50:12

quite regularly probably once a month or so

50:14

I yam, publish

50:17

with the, year step. by step

50:20

tutorial how to set up tutorial war with

50:22

on the have fallen how to properly story

50:25

fallen seat phrases how story set

50:27

up try them ledger You

50:29

know how to you created on, like, different

50:31

with on the computer, and that wonderful

50:34

bitcoin node, you know how

50:36

to use electrode, so all that

50:38

stuff that are mom. You know

50:40

advocating for another thing does

50:42

don't do the future because the email

50:44

the case you're just taking risk from

50:46

the biking to the other guy.

50:49

Which is kind of super so don't

50:51

trust any accent noted admired guys

50:53

though I'm centralized so until we are

50:56

decks, an imminent two decks

50:58

that it's still there is some risk so. as

51:01

the history shows us so i think

51:03

private keys is only way forward And

51:05

I guess you're fully decentralized than you

51:07

can tell pretty much any government if it's

51:09

not us. The go

51:11

on, you know?

51:13

I. Don't want to swear medical school and

51:15

this show you can soar especially you and your situation

51:18

swear away and let me ask you a B,

51:20

so we, you know we've. Made made lot of jokes about the,

51:23

you know, thirty kilos bag of cash they might have to

51:25

have that is very risky some of my come and get you, if.

51:27

you're very heavy

51:30

right but that's like the smallest part of the rest

51:32

as well as part of the rest of the someone can come and take it from you If

51:35

you actually make the bag way lighter and

51:38

you put on the crypto on your phone and

51:40

then your custody and. The

51:42

risk is still very high. Someone

51:44

could come in and hurt you and take your phone, and now

51:46

they don't have to carry heavy bag and they just got

51:48

your phone. How do you balance or

51:50

those risks? To

51:52

me right one of the one of the big

51:55

benefits of having bank in semi,

51:58

functional american government Is

52:00

it there's there isn't any cash mouse? Employing

52:03

I don't think that anyone's going to come on tried succession

52:05

of my house. If there's

52:07

not here, there's like twenty bucks here.

52:10

To answer to the first one with the and.

52:12

Then. custody Well, first of all,

52:15

never keep your crypto on the phone,

52:17

did you use it for the daily basis

52:19

of us one it, has to be separate

52:22

device the A? Mnemonic phrase

52:24

has to be written down on the like three

52:26

pieces of paper these three pieces of

52:28

paper should be stored and

52:30

the save, save vacation and

52:33

The in totally

52:35

different geographic location so

52:37

probably ideal it's even to Howard a

52:39

different continent. The

52:42

waterways are you can do it but obviously

52:44

ninety nine percent of people would never

52:46

do that because they're lazy some of the

52:48

blame and stupid so up for.

52:50

them there will be always centralized

52:53

agent the with the help The

52:56

or do it for them. Though

52:59

that's the truth of life, but at least

53:01

for the smart people and cautious

53:03

people on forward thinking people

53:05

there is alternative or crypto

53:07

on your wallet.

53:08

When your wallet your crib to with your

53:10

keys that's the only way forward but

53:13

if you're lazy or a you're

53:15

willing to take that risk and

53:17

ah you trust that guy or recorded

53:19

that surveys or, I

53:21

dunno where else then as you. can

53:24

place at your risk you know but you have one or two

53:27

This to me is the heart of the future

53:29

of script or in Ukraine as you can hide. People

53:33

choose banks because they don't hold on the money

53:35

in their house, they choose. Music

53:39

streaming services to they don't want to collect all the city's

53:41

perhaps right people pick convenience

53:43

and they outsourced security. Pretty

53:46

regularly, when it comes to computers. You're

53:50

describing is the somewhere. The more

53:52

we soak in, the more it feels like. The

53:54

reason people rally crypto currencies,

53:57

a sequence dollars, are useful currency.

54:00

In an all the benefits of as me totally

54:02

decentralize get Ari's

54:04

centralized. Some

54:06

actors sometimes even have you

54:08

personally.

54:10

Right a lot about three toed decentralized, he

54:12

should just the on crypto. The

54:14

services to. The third party

54:17

custodians of crypto exist are growing businesses.

54:20

That that's like to know.

54:22

The question why?

54:24

the thing is we come to the screen change in

54:27

ukraine and it's relationship to crypto

54:29

and you saying all that powerful people not

54:31

country Are now with

54:33

it? What is the actual

54:36

change of has been accomplished other than

54:38

some transactions go faster? Then

54:41

we rely less on a bad banking system.

54:43

Then.

54:48

Well for me it is freedom because

54:51

I. can be free with a bank account

54:53

Especially for come from a year

54:56

in, developing countries or actually

54:59

in developed countries it's also risk mean.

55:01

if you go

55:03

Crazy. In your position to the A.

55:05

U.S. government, the most likely to

55:07

impose sanctions in your unblock your account,

55:09

the and all your acids are, you know, this

55:11

is what I mean. It it will look what happened with

55:14

the Russians, yeah, it's a good example

55:16

of how the central centralized system

55:18

can behave and how we can do

55:20

pretty much the only. One in this world, I

55:23

mean. Rebooting is a

55:25

public figure, you know, the sanction list

55:27

or are public figures but.

55:30

You know we also

55:32

understand that this is possible you can

55:34

block anyone's assets in pretty much

55:36

any part of over the world and.

55:39

are there is no Their

55:42

solution were also into a bus from

55:44

cancer. I mean, for a,

55:46

it's quite obvious self explanatory,

55:49

yeah.

55:50

Here's how I think it's, it's just a fascinating

55:52

saying that it's happening there with Crypto, you

55:55

talk lot about how the next generation

55:57

of the government might work with Crypto.

56:00

There might be dow. Finances

56:02

are some us he receives, the government, how do you think I would play?

56:06

I. Have a different plan so I have

56:08

a bit tired of government this year it's,

56:11

than the out with the National Bank

56:13

as well, so it

56:15

has some sir. I have to say Michael the dear

56:18

frustration the National Bank has not been eclipsed it's

56:20

or thought as left side as

56:23

Idol am I, mean it's a war.

56:25

And they're blocking the means by which

56:27

are wicked so are bitcoin for, criminal

56:30

anyway, so basically they're like I'm looking

56:33

at account at Southern Town, but anyway

56:35

yes it's. Similar think so for the crypto

56:37

changes, in ukraine now because

56:39

they're so scared or focus but anyway

56:42

so i'm tired of trying to change the

56:44

one in the goldman know the whole of the government

56:47

so why is it is considering that

56:49

Though many people are in groups are right

56:52

now and I guess it's my.

56:55

yes that people who

56:57

use crypto Have

56:59

crypto. Or at least someone

57:02

close to the use crypto.

57:04

The know really well about grips

57:07

is probably. The

57:09

million people in Ukraine right now. The

57:12

door. Thirty

57:14

five a total, so the third

57:16

of country or.

57:18

Definitely knows that crypto something good

57:20

and or it's meaningful and you can

57:22

use it, and it's much better

57:25

than any, you know, government

57:27

or a commercial bank, alternative.

57:31

Though, how do I to use this momentum?

57:33

And instead of rebuilding

57:35

Ukraine wants to, we're has finished. Instead

57:38

of rebuilding the year old bad,

57:41

copy of democratic society

57:44

of for Euro for us. instead

57:46

alpha copying the capital

57:48

is market The bad

57:51

copy of capitalists or ugly copy

57:53

of the it comes to this market of us

57:55

why. don't we just for pros Tao,

57:58

Ukraine.

58:01

You know there won't be no pro then. There

58:03

will be no prime minister if

58:06

all just you know paint the picture will be it's

58:09

governments similar to

58:12

Switzerland, so it's consideration

58:14

says of federation. ah

58:16

where there is no centralized The

58:19

witcher take care of the whole country

58:22

he, will be based on the block chain instead

58:24

of traditional centralized systems.

58:27

you going to have a digital currency without

58:29

the national bank you can use

58:32

These currency or governance

58:34

tolkien's to direct,

58:37

the vote for some changes

58:39

in your government or you can delegate

58:42

or staying these tokens to someone who

58:44

you trust in a specific questions

58:47

And therefore we didn't need

58:49

the parliament was Senate or

58:52

Congress. or any i other elections

58:56

We don't need a president. We

58:58

don't need the entire rest

59:00

we're detect service because we

59:02

can improve on smart contracts, which would do

59:05

duck automatically the taxes

59:07

which will go to the local governments,

59:10

everything will be transparent and.

59:14

The good news is the technology

59:16

is here so we can already do it so,

59:19

this the topic of my yard

59:21

discussion for the past three months,

59:24

and this is what I'm building right now

59:26

so I want to create the first

59:28

crypto. state we gotta have

59:30

the yeah You know some kind

59:32

of passports or ID of this

59:35

crypto states and the

59:37

they will be open to the crypto guys

59:40

you, will be open to libertarian

59:43

The way we're gonna do it, he is. Move

59:46

towards rolling out. The Code

59:48

government just for ease of understanding

59:51

for older got people's government's

59:53

side dish the government services

59:56

and, with the of these

59:58

for allows more and more people The year

1:00:00

coming on board of Crypto So the said

1:00:02

now it's ten minutes to. borrow could

1:00:05

be twenty million The the in

1:00:07

a certain point of time and future. We're

1:00:09

gonna see that most of his services already

1:00:12

on block same. And we have

1:00:14

no need over traditional go.

1:00:16

What's the service he can put an abortion right now,

1:00:19

the government's or as even button the first

1:00:21

services some taxing system?

1:00:23

Then we can.

1:00:25

Implements my contract which would automatically

1:00:28

deduct two. percent from

1:00:30

any a commercial transaction so

1:00:32

we can create was for the merchants

1:00:35

we can create woods for the people

1:00:38

and it could have been different wall i'd say it could be

1:00:40

rules of how the tuc

1:00:42

system works so therefore we can save

1:00:44

couple of billion of or grimness

1:00:47

on just the budget to detect

1:00:49

service that's one second

1:00:51

service government services public

1:00:53

money so that's blockchain i mean that's

1:00:55

easiest thing to do the good news

1:00:57

is We would be able.

1:01:00

The government war as a country the first

1:01:02

country to. The

1:01:05

evenly distribute so comes to

1:01:07

every single. That

1:01:09

is know, Ukraine. And he

1:01:11

would be here. mathematically

1:01:14

or verifiable that

1:01:16

only the citizens received and the

1:01:19

that they did receive because of the public

1:01:21

keys of Fox Pretty.

1:01:23

much everyone in the country

1:01:26

Though I would you prevent make

1:01:28

a standard down governance

1:01:30

attack. The

1:01:32

in that moment right if you're the Russian government

1:01:34

new see Michael setting up crypto Ukraine

1:01:37

and, it's gonna be gonna down What?

1:01:39

You would you would take the entire Internet research

1:01:42

agency was right now attacks United

1:01:44

States from he faced with beams and

1:01:46

he would convert it to

1:01:48

we're going to do. A governance attack and the Ukraine dow

1:01:50

and somehow take over to eat the Ukrainian does. Then

1:01:53

we see governance attacks and as lesson or. We're

1:01:56

in a bio, the tokens and steak them also

1:01:58

library. How would you? The into.

1:02:00

The question I mean don't have answers

1:02:02

to every single question but

1:02:05

the one thing that I'm doing I'm

1:02:07

proposing I'm giving choice

1:02:10

because, there are no other alternative because

1:02:12

the government current or when they just wanna

1:02:15

be no. rebuild everything

1:02:17

that was destroyed Given the government

1:02:19

system. Instead, it's

1:02:21

useless. It's HB show

1:02:23

the if not us or Europe will

1:02:26

be already restaurant and a lot of millions of

1:02:28

people would be appropriate dead already because.

1:02:31

our government didn't you know football for

1:02:33

the war Because he was so corrupt

1:02:35

or there was some shit so we

1:02:37

have nothing to lose and now we have

1:02:39

even physically we have nothing to is because

1:02:41

lot of cities are just wiped out so.

1:02:45

What's? The point of rebuilding old if

1:02:47

we can build new that's why Proposition So

1:02:50

I don't have the answer to every single question

1:02:52

and the purpose of my podcast

1:02:55

world today is. To achieve

1:02:57

raise the awareness that it's possible

1:02:59

in Ukraine is, ideal

1:03:02

for ways to do is because so many people

1:03:04

on board and so many government officials

1:03:06

top government officials. Are really pro

1:03:09

crypto now they have crypto as well, so

1:03:11

we can do it i mean why just tried

1:03:14

do is experiment on a know what is going to be

1:03:16

good or bad was the outcome of it

1:03:19

but at least were given least choice and were trying

1:03:21

if were succeed great we can copy

1:03:23

to other countries if we fail

1:03:25

at least we tried

1:03:27

That's my point, so if you want to join

1:03:30

the.

1:03:31

Alba South was doing was do together

1:03:34

the first crypto say I.

1:03:36

mean no government and opposition

1:03:38

at the moment in ukraine so one

1:03:40

of my jokes on the show all

1:03:42

the time is that much every down

1:03:44

That's a fatal point when it tries to interact

1:03:47

with reality and that's right, Dowser,

1:03:49

great when you're moving bit surrounded database

1:03:51

is because the smart contracts and execute

1:03:54

people can see ads and then when you have

1:03:56

to. 'Cause we were physical

1:03:58

item, which many doubts tragedy.

1:04:00

Do you, realize okay like one

1:04:02

guy has to have the painting The

1:04:04

right one guy has to go shovel

1:04:06

the driveway lists you have to the Dow

1:04:09

has to make somebody do something. That's

1:04:11

usually where they hit a pretty big crisis

1:04:13

mode. How was your crypto state?

1:04:16

shovel the roads when it snows

1:04:18

or. Fight fires

1:04:20

like, "How would you who would be in charge

1:04:23

of making those things happen, the you from losing get

1:04:25

been solved, repeat, but different words?" Yeah.

1:04:28

We are the first country in the world. Where

1:04:31

crypto guys? Have enough

1:04:33

power. The take over

1:04:35

the whole country. That clear.

1:04:38

That is clear last one same

1:04:40

so with a little help we,

1:04:43

can do it will be the first crypto state

1:04:45

not there were no I. was

1:04:47

happening in salvador For

1:04:49

what else they are the doing it, this is like crippled

1:04:52

where I'm suggesting that we could be

1:04:54

the first crypto state. Tao,

1:04:57

I mean, you can cause don't call it always

1:04:59

you, have that silly for the Dow I've been called

1:05:02

something out but as is another vessel

1:05:04

into though it's that my. History

1:05:06

with covering Dow's is that one

1:05:09

down talk about bits they do great and

1:05:11

when he talks about Adams they tend to fall apart

1:05:14

so listen listen. to

1:05:16

it the some say there is no opposition

1:05:18

there is not as any single especially

1:05:21

special forces or the yeah that

1:05:23

is guys with guns that

1:05:25

are gonna be against us there

1:05:28

with us The phone think so

1:05:30

that you need. Something unique in

1:05:32

the world because I, was my experience

1:05:35

ten years and one month and crypto. when

1:05:38

we try to approach Then.

1:05:40

Government Ministry or National

1:05:42

Bank and say, "Let's do this on the block

1:05:44

chain that good these that the get

1:05:46

rid of this ministry or do that there

1:05:48

was always opposition from" Within the government

1:05:51

because this that way that this is the

1:05:53

way the system resist get,

1:05:55

any system try to protect itself. and

1:05:58

i'm saying that there is no them in Ukraine

1:06:00

and we have a lot of political power right

1:06:03

now to create

1:06:05

the first crypto state"

1:06:07

And it doesn't matter which a password you hold

1:06:09

right now, I don't care, I mean,

1:06:12

if you're for the crypto, your for Ukraine.

1:06:15

Welcome, why not?

1:06:16

I believe you and all that right you've got a political

1:06:19

capital for lack of better words you've

1:06:22

got the opportunity. Have

1:06:24

you thought through the execution? That

1:06:27

one day you will need to stand up, police

1:06:29

and fire and. The ambulances.

1:06:32

Then. The basics of government

1:06:35

and community.

1:06:36

There will be police, there will be

1:06:38

what else we need, the forest service

1:06:41

there will be here probably army,

1:06:43

but I'm just saying that. What what if the

1:06:46

members of the Dow choose to? Then

1:06:48

take all the money away from the fire. That

1:06:51

stupid why?

1:06:52

They're not as what would be the what would be

1:06:54

the control to make sure that doesn't happen, he

1:06:56

like you wouldn't be the king of the country seeking

1:06:58

to say that.

1:07:00

Okay, good point, but the again, AH,

1:07:02

it would be decentralize who says they have to be

1:07:04

one big doubt he could be a

1:07:07

broad down to the level of city or

1:07:09

it could be brought down to your area

1:07:11

or for neighborhood.

1:07:13

That's why says Switzerland is a good example

1:07:15

because here everything is decentralized

1:07:17

so each city has it's own

1:07:19

citizens and they all vote for

1:07:21

like local changes and.

1:07:24

it's up to them how they spend their budget

1:07:26

and who they choose their merit They

1:07:29

will be still mare there will be

1:07:32

someone but is he will be chosen

1:07:34

transparently. The

1:07:36

any time the both can be

1:07:38

taken away and with countries numeric

1:07:40

that the problem though we have right now with,

1:07:43

the presidents and prime ministers so he

1:07:45

the you know during the elections

1:07:48

the yeah. promise lot of stuff

1:07:50

and then nothing happens and you'd you don't

1:07:52

have any enemies of for

1:07:54

you know take your boat back and choose the other guys

1:07:57

but with block chain it is stating

1:07:59

so you

1:08:00

At. "Stake is tokens that he will go, he is not a mere,

1:08:02

you get you choose new one that's how you find

1:08:04

the consensus among your neighbors, the

1:08:06

obviously if. You see that you

1:08:08

live in danger zone, all

1:08:11

of my the forest obviously you're going to use

1:08:13

your budget on the safety first and then you gotta

1:08:15

spend. It on the rest of the stuff, but he will

1:08:17

be your money of your neighborhood

1:08:19

transparent. Without. Anyone

1:08:21

stealing the morning because you can see

1:08:23

that was going on, and there is

1:08:25

no secret, feel how you spend your money, I

1:08:28

mean, because without a anything

1:08:30

like Soviet. Union where everything

1:08:32

was secret, you know so, it's

1:08:34

possible so it's down to architecture

1:08:37

I'm saying I'm not the wisest guy in the world

1:08:39

I'm just saying that. are often

1:08:42

decide that i don't know why you're definitely but i'm

1:08:44

just saying that there is that momentum and

1:08:46

we have and political power and now it's

1:08:48

down to architecture so now we need

1:08:50

really smart guys in the world who

1:08:53

know exactly how to implement dunno

1:08:55

where else we need the in the in this a

1:08:57

so-called new government I

1:09:00

don't know, so have to find all of these guys or

1:09:02

they'll find me and them together

1:09:05

will just create something you will, which

1:09:07

is why not with Susan.

1:09:10

That's very exciting saucer a great place to end

1:09:12

it you've given us so much time metals.

1:09:14

rainy into he sauntered communicator scientists

1:09:20

Thanks. Again, it to Michael to reunion for taking the have

1:09:22

stopped day and thank you for listening to Decoder

1:09:24

up enjoyed, it is always a luxurious

1:09:27

into to cover his emails. A. Decoder: At the first

1:09:29

icons, the country to be directly I'm at "Reckless"

1:09:31

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1:09:33

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1:09:36

she really. Like it says with Thesaurus

1:09:38

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1:09:41

if he tweeted me about the so I will almost certainly

1:09:43

rich with. Then. Shooter's oppression

1:09:45

aversion part of the busing, a process that works for

1:09:47

his episode, was produced by creating this amount and Jackie

1:09:50

term it research was done by with Leon

1:09:52

was edited. By Calumet City Quarter

1:09:54

Music is my break master cylinder or singer audio

1:09:56

directors and arena or executive producers

1:09:58

and we'll. see

1:10:01

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