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Search Wix Studio today to explore the

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full range of features. Hello

1:20

and welcome to Decoder. I'm Neil Aptel, Editor-in-Chief

1:22

of The Verge, and Decoder is my show

1:24

about big ideas and other problems. Today I'm

1:26

talking with Polestar CEO Thomas Ingeleth, who I

1:28

first interviewed on the show back in 2021.

1:32

Those were petty days, 2021, especially

1:34

for upstart EV companies like Polestar,

1:36

which all seemed poised to capture

1:38

what felt like infinite demand for

1:40

electric cars. Here in 2024, the

1:42

market looks a lot different, and

1:44

so does Polestar, which is no

1:46

longer a majority owned by Volvo,

1:48

but now a more independent sister

1:50

company, which sits next to Volvo,

1:53

under Chinese parent company Geely. You

1:55

know, I love talking about structure shuffles here on Decoder,

1:57

so Thomas and I got into it. What is it?

2:00

mean for Volvo to have stepped back

2:02

its investment and how much can Polestar

2:04

take from Geely's various platforms while still

2:06

remaining distinct from other brands in the

2:08

portfolio? Thomas actually has a refreshingly candid

2:10

perspective on why people pick certain cars.

2:12

He thinks it's desirability, which he rates

2:14

as the number one factor for Polestar,

2:17

and that affects how he and Polestar

2:19

think about its relationship to Volvo, to

2:21

other luxury carmakers, and to the EV

2:23

market in general. And make no

2:25

mistake, Polestar is trying to grab more of

2:27

that market. The first time Thomas talked, Polestar's

2:29

only mainstream car was the well-reviewed Polestar 2.

2:32

But this year, Polestar expects to

2:34

start delivering the Polestar 3 SUV to

2:36

customers, and it will debut the crossover

2:38

Polestar 4, filling out the model lineup

2:40

and hopefully competing for more attention from

2:42

car shoppers. Of course, it wouldn't be

2:44

a decoder car episode if we didn't

2:46

talk about software in the cars and

2:48

how it's changing. Unlike so

2:50

many of the car executives I talked

2:52

to, Thomas doesn't really see software as

2:55

a big revenue opportunity. Polestar cars today

2:57

run the Android Automotive OS in partnership

2:59

with Google, and in China, Polestar just

3:01

partnered with Xinji Meizu, another Geely company,

3:04

to use a platform called Flyme OS.

3:07

You'll hear Thomas talk about that partnership and

3:09

where Polestar is comfortable ceding control of the

3:11

in-car experience to Apple, Google, and others. At

3:14

his heart, Thomas is still a designer, so

3:16

I had to ask him about the recent

3:18

trend in car design, which is going in

3:20

two directions. On the one hand, you have

3:23

some retro future ideas from Rivian, Hyundai, Kia,

3:25

and others, and on the other hand, you

3:27

have the triangle aesthetic of the Cybertruck. I

3:30

gotta say, Thomas' response to the Cybertruck, one

3:32

of the best I've heard in the industry. Okay,

3:34

Polestar CEO, Thomas Ingeleb. Here we go. Thomas

3:50

Ingeleb, you are the CEO of Polestar.

3:52

Welcome back to Decoder. Hi, Ingeleb. Great

3:54

to be back here. I

3:56

am very excited to talk to you again. Your

3:58

first conversation with us... in 2021 was like

4:01

a highly, we had just started the show and

4:03

you were one of the first car CEOs to come on the

4:05

show with us. You took a rest. Thank you so much. I

4:08

look back on that episode fondly. Yeah, and

4:10

that seems like a long time ago. Three

4:12

years ago is a long time ago, but

4:14

also the whole car market has changed in

4:17

those three years. A lot of things have

4:19

happened and the assumptions I think

4:21

we were all making about the car market in 2021

4:25

have radically shifted. EV

4:27

demand has changed, demand for hybrids has gone

4:29

back up. The competition has changed. Your

4:32

big competitor in Tesla has really changed and Polestar

4:34

itself has changed. I hope you're ready for this

4:36

conversation because we got to cover all of it.

4:39

Let's start with Polestar itself. There are some

4:42

fundamental structure changes that I think will help

4:44

me understand everything else. Decoder

4:46

is a fundamentally show about structure. Polestar

4:48

just went through some big structure changes. The last

4:50

time you were on the show, the

4:53

majority owner was Volvo, that's changed.

4:55

Volvo has stepped back. I

4:58

think it's 18% ownership stake now. Geely, the

5:00

parent company of both Volvo and Polestar is

5:03

more funding Polestar. I

5:05

have a quote from you from last time. This

5:07

is one of the reasons I loved that episode of

5:10

the show because it's such a good quote. I asked

5:12

you to describe your relationship to Volvo. And you said

5:14

Volvo is our parent company. Polestar was born there. Volvo

5:17

has raised its baby. It's growing up and becoming an

5:19

adult. We are on the process of moving out, earning

5:21

our own money. We will always be some kind of

5:23

family, but of course we will develop our own life.

5:26

That appears to have happened. You've moved out

5:28

of Volvo. What is that relationship like now?

5:31

Well, it's still a relationship. It's still

5:33

family. You can

5:35

do whatever you want. Once you're family, you're a family.

5:38

But you grow up and you move out

5:40

and you become more independent.

5:44

You might as well, you know,

5:46

that happens in families.

5:48

There are periods of bigger

5:50

distance, periods when you find together

5:52

again a bit closer. Having said

5:54

that, compared to what

5:57

21 was laid out as

5:59

a plan, Really, that is not

6:01

that much of a change that we

6:03

would, and let's face it, the cars,

6:05

for example, that are test on me

6:07

to that growing up were in the

6:09

development at that point in time, that

6:11

from a very early poster one, even

6:13

poster two, still tight

6:15

relation to Volvo to

6:18

poster three and a four, growing

6:20

a bit more into an obvious,

6:22

the product show it independent company

6:25

is part of the long

6:27

plan. I would love

6:29

to point out what actually was

6:31

not as visible in 21. And

6:34

yeah, maybe it's really different now.

6:36

And where we find it, as

6:38

now in 24, one element

6:41

that we have been talking about now a lot is

6:44

how much indeed innovation

6:46

speed, relevant electric

6:48

mobility, relevant technology, of

6:50

course, has accelerated,

6:54

developed momentum and dynamics within the GLE

6:56

group in other brands where it

6:58

is, of course, relevant for us

7:01

to actually broaden our

7:03

way of using the brand portfolio

7:05

technology portfolio, and actually hooking up

7:07

and doing things on a broader

7:10

range within the GLE group. I

7:12

think that's reflecting what's happening

7:14

in the world. Let's face it, China

7:16

EVs did not become

7:20

such a competition. And you could

7:22

call it threats to the

7:24

OEMs in this world. And

7:26

in other sub-sides, I mean, Jesus, they

7:28

are technically competitive, highly

7:31

competitive. That is what makes them a

7:33

threat. We should be a little bit

7:35

more honest about that. And

7:38

for that reason, the advantage for us to hook

7:40

up to that technology as a

7:42

European OEM, I mean, Polestar

7:44

is here in Sweden, a very European

7:47

company. We are harvesting

7:49

and using that technology as well to

7:51

go forward. The

7:53

ownership structure, my God, one thing

7:56

is Volvo is reducing, but

7:58

18% stake that keep.

8:00

Certainly, it's beyond what ever you

8:02

would call a strategic partnership. That's

8:05

heavy involvement. That is a strong

8:07

ownership still. And the relationship that

8:09

we have in terms of producing

8:11

cars together, developing technology together is

8:13

untouched for that reason.

8:15

I would love anyway any investor talking

8:17

about Polestar, I always try to separate

8:20

that. One thing is the ownership

8:22

structure. The other thing is the technology

8:24

and where we produce cars and stuff, that

8:26

is different. We are on the track to

8:29

be much more of a manufacturing

8:31

footprint-wise, global company. All

8:34

of that is much more on the

8:36

move. We will gain with this reduction

8:39

of ownership of Volvo from something

8:42

around 48 to this 18%

8:44

actually do something very in

8:47

the long run beneficial for Polestar and that has

8:49

increased our free flow. And that was almost a

8:51

promise to when we list

8:53

the company, that would be an

8:56

effect that the big main

8:58

owners would actually let go of some

9:00

of the ownership in order to increase

9:02

the free flow and let other people

9:04

participate in it. So in

9:07

a way, you can read it.

9:09

We might have even talked about it in 21. That was

9:13

always a story. But turbulent

9:15

times, of course, this is a world which

9:17

is of course, and

9:19

a lot of developments. We have seen the

9:21

EV market and that's a strange thing. 21, if

9:24

we would have talked, we still had to actually

9:26

talk about the conviction that

9:28

EVs would be that that's

9:30

the technology. And then funnily

9:33

enough, we have seen within that time, 22, 23, big

9:37

wave of yes, electrification, all

9:40

the OSMs suddenly saying,

9:42

oh yeah, we will do it till year X

9:44

Epsilon. And now within that short time, there's a

9:46

swing back again. I mean, you can see how

9:49

fast these things are happening. Having witnessed that

9:51

the last three years, I'm actually not that

9:53

worried about what is talked about today about,

9:56

oh yeah, it's now high rates. And let's

9:58

stick to the ice. cars.

10:00

You know, that is going backwards and

10:02

forwards so quickly. I think

10:04

the conviction that we have about this,

10:07

the technical superiority of the electric

10:10

drivetrain and the necessity

10:12

to reduce CF2 will naturally,

10:14

you know, you have to focus on that

10:17

long term thing and that

10:19

is electrification will be then

10:21

able to be innovative. Keep

10:23

people actually interested in cars

10:25

because that is where the

10:27

tech is happening and

10:29

make progress on the journey

10:32

of decarbonization. Yeah, you

10:34

hit on almost every single thing I want to

10:37

talk about. So let's take them in order. The

10:39

thing you are mentioning, right, the furious rush in

10:41

2021, 2020 to electrification, all

10:44

these announcements and then the pullback, definitely want to talk

10:46

about that. Just

10:49

the financial climate back then

10:51

with low interest rates, lots of

10:53

free cash, people made very different kinds of decisions

10:55

that has obviously changed now as well. But

10:58

I just want to stick on Volvo and

11:00

Geely for one second. You mentioned

11:02

something really interesting here, which is the

11:04

Chinese EV market has not developed because

11:07

of just state subsidies from China that

11:09

there's technical superiority in some of the

11:11

products. Obviously, Geely is a

11:13

Chinese company. They believe

11:15

right now they've passed BYD, at least

11:17

in some months for total

11:19

EV shipped in China and the world. That is

11:22

a furious battle back and forth. What

11:24

are you pulling from their platforms, from

11:27

their technical developments forward

11:30

that give you an edge in the markets here? There's

11:33

technology that we use, for

11:36

example, building a poster

11:39

for technology that is coming

11:41

from the Geely group. There's elements

11:44

like electronic architectures, where

11:47

we definitely can harvest things

11:50

that are developed in the Geely group. We

11:52

take as the starting point, for example,

11:55

for the poster five to then develop

11:57

the electric architecture on the poster five.

12:00

on this basis. That's

12:02

where the speed is

12:04

here, the key point. It's not

12:07

necessarily just that there's some

12:09

genius element in it. It's just that

12:11

how fast you can move things forward,

12:13

how quickly you get to a

12:15

product, the openness to actually implement

12:17

change and react on the

12:20

demands and to which that we have as

12:22

a brand and to incorporate that. That's really

12:25

where we benefit in working together

12:27

with them. Yeah, but

12:29

clearly the real

12:32

windowless, virtual real window

12:34

post-op for. Yeah, it's the

12:37

first product that I think it becomes

12:39

very tangible how that technology is a

12:41

very, very good base for us to

12:43

actually develop a very post-op

12:48

interesting for the

12:50

consumer amazing product on it. One

12:53

thing I think about with all of the

12:55

car conglomerates is there's

12:57

an element of brand segmentation within

12:59

them. Then there's some of them

13:02

that are just open competitive

13:04

friction. I would say GM

13:06

does a very good job of just very

13:09

crisply segmenting its brand. You buy a Cadillac at the

13:11

top in the market, you buy a Chevy at the

13:13

bottom, that's it. Hyundai and

13:15

Kia seem to be locked

13:17

in ferocious sibling rivalry, which I think

13:19

is making them both better. How

13:22

does that feel for you inside of Geely with

13:24

Volvo? I want

13:26

to point out, this is a radio show. Thomas is

13:28

smiling. He smiled a lot when I asked that question.

13:30

He's still smiling. Yeah, you see,

13:32

because it's an interesting story. We

13:36

tend to always categorize it, oh yeah,

13:38

there's this company where there's very clear

13:40

structure and then there is this where

13:42

you feel like, okay, the board

13:44

is a bit fluent and stuff. Yes,

13:47

there might be that generalization.

13:50

You could maybe apply having said that

13:52

and having worked in the Volkswagen group

13:55

for a long time for two decades. I was

13:59

within the Volkswagen. group when actually a

14:01

lot of brands were bought. I

14:04

call it now this German rationalism and you

14:06

want to put it all in the box.

14:08

And there was a big effort to structure

14:10

it and to a high degree it has

14:12

been structured and there was a very clear

14:14

brand mission stuff. Having said that, was there

14:16

not friction and discussion between the

14:19

brands and stuff? Of course there was.

14:21

You could see that between

14:23

Volkswagen and Skoda, you could see

14:25

this between Audi and Porsche. So

14:27

even if you try to do

14:29

that, there will be some kind

14:31

of friction happening. And I always

14:33

try to explain everywhere, look that's

14:35

normal. That is the normal friction

14:37

that you even have in any

14:39

well-functioning family. The question is

14:41

how much does that lead to a creative

14:44

growth of the collective

14:47

whole? Or how much is that actually

14:50

disturbing the development of the individual

14:52

brands? And that's I think the

14:54

more healthy parameter. Whether that as

14:57

a general thing creates a positive creative

14:59

dynamic for the group or is it

15:01

something that is actually destructive?

15:03

And much more than are

15:06

we all nicely boxed in into our

15:08

segment. So for that

15:11

reason. Well let me give you some

15:13

examples there. So I would say the

15:15

ferocious rivalry between Hyundai and Kia is

15:17

working for them because they are putting

15:20

out radically designed cars.

15:22

They're pushing forward more

15:24

than any mass market automaker. They make

15:26

a lot of cars but they are

15:28

designing at the boundaries, which

15:31

is cool. They've raised awareness of both brands,

15:33

at least here in the United States, and they're growing market

15:35

share for both brands. That's working for them.

15:37

Is that sustainable? I don't know. It

15:39

feels like you could enter into that kind

15:42

of relationship with Volvo which has a bunch

15:44

of small EVs. And you could grow the

15:46

total EV market share of Volvo

15:48

and Polestar in the United States by just going

15:51

at it. Or you could say this is how much market

15:53

share we want for both and we're just going to move

15:55

customers between them. I don't think anybody actually ever picks the

15:57

second one but that's more companies in this situation end up.

16:01

moving customers between them than

16:03

actually growing the total number of customers. How

16:05

do you avoid that outcome? Because it seems

16:07

like the goal is to grow the total

16:09

number of EV market share. It's for me

16:11

so clear. Yeah. I'm

16:14

so convinced that we have a chance to

16:16

actually grow significantly the

16:18

reach and the group of customers

16:20

that we address for a simple

16:23

reason. Having been within Volvo, working

16:25

for them and I would say

16:27

successfully building a lineup of

16:29

cars that actually reposition Volvo in

16:31

that premium segment. But

16:34

with a very distinct brand

16:36

being so much about an

16:39

inclusive brand. Actually even people who

16:41

don't buy a Volvo are very

16:43

positive. You know you never are

16:46

offending anybody with a Volvo.

16:48

It's a very inclusive value-driven

16:50

brand that is obviously centered

16:53

to the original core

16:55

of safety, developing that into the

16:57

modern autonomous drive safety kind of.

16:59

It's very well positioned. But how

17:01

much did I see as well

17:03

that there are a lot of

17:06

customers for, let's say

17:08

this AMG, for a you

17:10

know sporty Audi customer who

17:12

we obviously cannot easily now

17:14

with a Volvo product address.

17:16

Because let's face it that

17:18

needs a different profile of

17:20

car, a different profile of attributes.

17:23

And that's actually one of

17:25

the starting points now talking as a

17:28

designer where I felt like wow this

17:30

Scandinavian design world

17:32

actually has as well a more

17:34

techy, a more sporty corner

17:37

which we at the moment rightfully should

17:39

not address with the Volvo brand. So

17:42

reaching out to say come on that

17:44

part of the premium. Let's

17:47

create a new Scandinavian brand that

17:49

is actually catered to capture those

17:51

customers. A bit more provocative, a

17:53

bit more controversial, not

17:56

pleasing everybody. Daring

17:58

to do a car that has no real

18:02

window but only a virtual mirror,

18:05

that is something that you can do with a

18:07

brand that is actually that much more controversial.

18:10

And having a chassis that actually

18:13

is that much more cater

18:16

for the driver, that indeed the kits in

18:18

the second row might get a tiny little

18:20

bit more of a hump when they cross

18:23

a speed bump. I mean, all these things

18:25

that we can do now with Polestar in

18:27

order to actually build that more

18:30

driver-centric, more provocative, more

18:32

power-driven experience. Being

18:35

as well more techie in the

18:37

material expression, not all this warm

18:39

and comforting, all the stuff

18:41

that if we would have done it at

18:43

Volvo, Hockan would have told

18:46

me, oh, you know, that's too German,

18:48

too techie, that's too cold. To

18:50

do that a bit more cool, cold

18:52

expression in a tech way,

18:56

that's why I feel we very well

18:58

will position these two brands peacefully

19:03

next to each other. I had that very

19:06

clear statement recently, Polestar

19:08

3 standing next to an EX90.

19:12

Both cars very much on the same

19:14

wheelbase, same technology

19:19

starting point, but so different

19:21

in what it offers to the customer

19:23

and visually different. I mean, if you

19:25

don't see and get the difference between

19:28

Polestar and Volvo looking at

19:30

these two products, then I

19:32

can't help it. I think

19:34

we are on very healthy ground

19:36

when it comes to brand differentiation.

19:41

We need to take a quick break. When we're back, Thomas and

19:43

I get into the Dakota questions and we gear

19:45

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Term Supply. We're

20:25

back with Polestar CO Thomas X-Lab to talk

20:27

about how Polestar is structured today. And

20:29

how it's responding to changes in the EV market.

20:32

Let me ask a couple more decoder questions and then I

20:34

want to talk about the EV market and how it's

20:36

changed. Last time we spoke, you had about

20:38

a thousand people earlier this year. You did some cuts

20:40

about 15%. How

20:43

big is Polestar now? We are around

20:45

2,800 people or something like that.

20:49

We are on the way to reach by the end

20:51

of this year 2,500. That

20:54

is the process that we are in. Yeah. And

20:57

how is Polestar structured? How have you organized the company? There

21:00

is a big part of our organization

21:02

here in Gothenburg with the

21:05

central space department. We have of

21:07

course the headquarter marketing

21:09

sitting here in the building. We have

21:11

as well our quality

21:15

and service. All of that is here.

21:17

The R&D is partly here,

21:19

but a big part of our R&D, especially

21:22

the one that is taking care of the

21:24

aluminum architecture that the Polestar 5

21:26

and 6 is built on, is

21:28

located in the UK. That's

21:31

the bigger portion of our R&D that sits

21:34

there in Coventry. I

21:36

could almost say no, that's it. Then

21:38

of course we have 27 markets

21:41

and each market has, and

21:43

I call it now a small Polestar

21:45

market lead there. And

21:48

I hope I didn't forget or anything, that's about it.

21:51

We have of course a little bit more of

21:54

our quality people sitting next to

21:56

the factories. That is of

21:59

course something that we have. that we build up now, slowly

22:01

with the car line

22:04

upgrowing. But we

22:06

take care mainly of what

22:08

we call attributes that

22:10

make Polestar a Polestar. And that's our

22:13

interface where the customer touches and feels

22:15

the car and let it come to

22:17

the digital, to screens in

22:19

the car, all

22:21

the feeling that you have in

22:24

driving a car, we really highly

22:26

appreciate the car being a physical

22:29

object, not just a digital device.

22:31

So these two elements, a very

22:33

traditional chassis department, a very modern,

22:36

high advanced digital interface designer

22:38

driven, so we do of course all

22:40

the app development that we need in-house.

22:42

So that's the stuff that we take

22:45

care of. Would we, do

22:47

we involve in ADAS technology

22:49

and developing the autonomous

22:52

drive functionality of a highway

22:54

pilot with hands off? No,

22:57

that's technology that we harvest from the

23:00

group. So this is the key

23:02

to the question. I love asking this question of

23:05

former designers in particular because I get

23:07

a lot of consultant type CEOs. How

23:10

do you make decisions? What is your process of making

23:12

decisions? Even listening to you talk, it

23:15

feels different than everybody else. Yeah, indeed

23:19

the background makes me take

23:21

decisions knowing that

23:24

certain, a lot of, I

23:26

would say almost most decisions

23:28

you cannot take, you

23:30

have to take without really

23:32

having the proof on the paper.

23:35

Otherwise it would be easy for anybody

23:37

to take that decision. I mean, you

23:39

have to, to a certain degree, take

23:41

that risk of projecting what

23:43

is gonna happen in the future, where is

23:45

consumer taste going that I had to learn

23:48

as a designer very much to be very

23:50

much on your own at the end of

23:52

the day, whatever data you try

23:54

to prove it with. But at the end of

23:56

the day, it comes to you taking a judgment

23:58

where it is going. It is a very

24:01

lonely decision when you make the proposal

24:03

of which design to go for. And

24:05

I think that's a very tough but

24:07

very good school to become serious about

24:09

taking such a decision and being aware

24:11

of the responsibility that you take with

24:14

that on yourself by making the

24:16

call, oh, it's this or it's that design.

24:18

And exactly like that, we have to take certain

24:20

decisions when it comes to business models,

24:23

when it comes to markets. Yeah, you have

24:25

to, of course, listen to a lot of

24:27

stuff. But at the end of the day,

24:29

it's clear you can't hide behind

24:32

the rationale of a spreadsheet.

24:34

You have to stand by

24:36

the decision and be sometimes

24:39

bold in making that lonely decision. And

24:43

for a lot of reasons, Polestar

24:45

is being perceived as a brand

24:48

with a very, very strong identity

24:50

and a very strong appearance,

24:53

wherever you see it, touch

24:55

it, feel it. Of

24:57

course, for me, the biggest value that

24:59

we create with this company is the

25:02

brand value. This is the long lasting

25:05

value that we create. Technology comes

25:07

and goes, models comes and goes.

25:10

But really, in 100 years is what we will

25:12

have created as a value, is the value of

25:14

the brand. And for that reason,

25:18

and for that reason, when you ask me now, what is

25:20

the frame where I take my decisions? And

25:23

of course, for me, it is as

25:26

well always very relevant. How does the

25:28

decision that I take now here, do

25:30

we go A or B? How does

25:33

that reflect on our brand? How does

25:35

that affect how our

25:38

brand is perceived? It is for me, a very

25:41

important element of making sure

25:43

people identify with something that

25:45

they perceive as an

25:48

incredible brand. Desirability

25:50

will be key for

25:52

the purchase decision for our products. It is

25:54

not the bread and butter car. It is

25:56

not the economics of the car that make

25:58

you buy a Polestar. It is about

26:01

the fascination and the desirability of the brand.

26:03

That's why a lot of the decisions that

26:05

we take, we always have to think about

26:07

as well, how does that reflect on our

26:09

brand? I want to come to that because

26:11

there's a lot embedded

26:13

in that statement, right? The desirability is why

26:15

people buy cars. That

26:17

is, I don't think it's an unusual point of view for

26:19

a car executive, but the conviction

26:21

that you have in it is, I think,

26:24

unusual. To

26:26

have a brand for 100 years, you

26:28

need to sell a lot of cars.

26:30

The market for EVs in particular needs

26:32

to exist and overtake the market for

26:34

ICE vehicles. This is

26:36

what you were talking about earlier. There

26:38

was a furious rush to announce EVs,

26:40

to announce plans for all EV lineups.

26:43

It's the consumers who didn't go along with

26:45

the plan. The demand did not

26:47

increase at the rate that everybody had

26:49

projected. Was that just pandemic

26:52

zero interest rate thinking

26:55

that we can see how expensive

26:57

Teslas are and the infinite demand

26:59

for Teslas, we can have a piece of

27:01

that? What did the car industry get wrong

27:03

there? I would very

27:05

much disagree that the consumer didn't go along.

27:09

Well, the sales have not increased at the rate.

27:11

I mean, I can look at the car lots

27:13

around me, the EVs are sitting there. Now

27:15

we can just simply discuss, okay, what speed

27:18

of increase do you... I mean, the

27:20

EV market is still growing. How

27:23

fast is it growing? That's the question.

27:26

And then again, it's almost... I

27:28

mean, sorry for putting it now

27:30

into this picture, but it's almost

27:32

like climate change deniers

27:35

saying, hey, look, it has been for

27:38

two days raining. So Michael, what

27:40

do you expect? Why does everybody

27:42

is worried about the temperature on

27:44

Earth increasing? Just because

27:46

you had one cold winter, that doesn't

27:50

prove that climate change isn't existing.

27:52

So that projection on

27:55

what will happen in 10 years. Yes,

27:57

I'm very convinced that the EV

27:59

market... market will gain market share year

28:03

after year after year. Just because I'm

28:05

so convinced that it is that much

28:07

more pleasant to experience the drive in

28:09

an electric car. That is just purely

28:11

from a product quality

28:13

standpoint. When I go back

28:16

now and drive a combustion

28:18

engine car, it is a

28:20

disappointment because it feels like old technology. Then

28:24

rightfully, there is the question of

28:26

how affordable are EVs. And

28:28

of course, companies like Tesla,

28:31

BYD, have now opened that

28:33

door to actually make EVs

28:36

affordable. Not

28:38

maybe to the extent that all the

28:40

way has to still go, but the

28:42

trend is there that you actually see

28:44

that EVs become very affordable. That is

28:47

how Tesla actually moved away into

28:49

a mass market kind of brand. Very

28:52

different to what our ambition is. Now,

28:55

for that reason, I'm having a say, I'm

28:57

relaxed, but I'm convinced that the EV market,

29:00

of course, will grow and become the majority

29:02

in the share between

29:04

ice-strain cars and EVs. And

29:06

now, let's now presume for a second

29:09

that I'm totally wrong here and that

29:11

will not happen. Would

29:14

that actually matter for what we

29:16

are after with the poster brand?

29:18

I would say no, because what

29:21

we are now building here and doing

29:23

is a premium performance electric

29:26

car brand. And

29:28

even if the mass market will

29:31

stay on hybrid ice-strain cars, to

29:34

me, it is so crystal clear

29:36

that if you want to build a modern

29:38

performance car, how would you

29:41

do it otherwise than electric? This

29:43

technology is so much more power.

29:46

It is so much more great

29:49

prerequisite to actually build a high-performing

29:52

car. That's

29:54

where I feel like in that corner, you

29:57

have such an amazing offer to the customer.

30:00

Charging speed is relevant but that's

30:02

increasing dramatically. Look at how the

30:04

Posa 3 is already charging speed

30:06

by actually that much superior. Just

30:08

how over right the way till

30:11

78% you keep that very high speed. That's

30:15

why I think technology really makes it great

30:17

and fun to drive such a performance car.

30:19

When you see how a 2.5 ton Posa

30:22

3 performs like a

30:25

performance car, you don't feel the weight.

30:27

Actually, it's the opposite. That weight actually together

30:29

with the high torque of the engines,

30:31

it is so low the weight that

30:33

it actually gives you this almost

30:36

go-kart type of feeling. It's amazing

30:38

how that actually works. The

30:41

open-the-door-with-electromobility gives you such an

30:43

amazing opportunity to build even

30:45

greater performing cars. When we

30:48

take into our comparison drives what

30:52

was a hero of the

30:54

performance ice-cream car, if we

30:56

take that into our test, my

30:58

God, it's always amazing. Then you

31:01

get into this ice-cream car, you

31:03

rev it and there's an amazing

31:05

noise but nothing happens because acceleration

31:07

in this car feels so compared

31:09

to all the spectacular noise happening, actually

31:12

that low. Now that's where

31:15

even from that aspect I'm not worried. Now

31:17

putting the third perspective in it, I mean

31:19

Jesus, if we don't get onto the track

31:21

of electrification, how the hell do we actually

31:23

think that we manage the decarbonization?

31:26

I mean that's the other thing and that

31:28

is where I would really address politicians. You

31:31

cannot be that short-sighted that

31:33

you lose the goal of

31:35

decarbonization that much out of focus. Let's

31:38

be clear for transportation, what we are talking

31:40

about, that the car that you and me

31:42

drive, this is the easiest,

31:44

simplest and most pleasant way of

31:47

actually decarbonizing your own personal life.

31:49

I mean there are many more difficult

31:52

areas flying around the world. How do

31:54

you get decarbonization happening there? These are

31:56

difficult questions. In terms of

31:59

personal transport... with cars that

32:01

you may drive, that decolonization

32:03

is very quickly possible.

32:07

CO2 burden of a poster has

32:09

decreased so nicely. Yeah, 20 times

32:11

soon we will, I mean the poster forecast is

32:14

20 times CO2 burden. That is

32:16

something that you within, I don't know, 15,000,

32:18

20,000 kilometer, you're on, I

32:22

call it now done with it, then you

32:24

driving an ice train would become worse than

32:26

that. And from then on, you actually have

32:28

a CO2 free user phase if

32:31

you feed it with green energy. I

32:33

mean, that is actually a very doable and

32:35

easy thing. A lot of

32:37

things in your life are much more

32:39

difficult to decarbonize. And that, let's face

32:41

it, it's a big challenge for the

32:44

whole industry nations to

32:46

get onto that track. Two things, one,

32:48

I've done some very entertainingly irresponsible things in a poll

32:50

store too, I agree with you, they are very fast.

32:53

And two, I think a lot of people are going to disagree

32:55

with you about the value of that engine noise over time, but

32:57

we'll leave that aside. You

32:59

mentioned Tesla and it becoming a

33:01

lower price mass market car. That's

33:04

the thing. I think we're

33:06

looking at the same piece of evidence in two different ways.

33:09

I'm looking at Tesla rapidly slash the

33:11

price of the Model 3 over and

33:13

over and over again. So

33:15

much so that they're destabilizing other companies,

33:18

they're destabilizing Hertz, they're destabilizing

33:20

you. Prices of electric

33:22

cars are coming down fast

33:25

because Tesla is basically maintaining

33:27

its sales levels by slashing the

33:29

prices. There's an argument that Tesla will

33:31

get to the $25,000 EV by just

33:33

cutting the price of the Model 3 three

33:36

more times. They're already at $35,000. That's

33:39

the piece of evidence I look at that says,

33:41

okay, even the company that was far and away

33:43

the biggest player in the global

33:45

EV market is having to

33:48

slash prices to maintain demand. It

33:50

has major competition from GLEE,

33:52

from BYD, that is bringing

33:55

the prices of the market down. Is

33:58

that to you? Is that evidence that... It's

34:00

competition that's lowering prices. Is that

34:03

evidence that consumers are no longer willing to pay

34:05

the premium they were in the pandemic for cars?

34:08

How are you seeing that play out for? Polestar

34:11

and in the market as a whole That's

34:13

a different ambition if you want to sell millions

34:15

of cars when you actually put out the goal

34:17

of selling 20 million cars In

34:19

the year, I mean, of course Then you

34:21

have to be very aggressive in your pricing

34:23

and you have to be very aggressive in

34:26

gaining market share there But that's a complete

34:28

different target a different game Do you

34:30

see Tesla's struggle is an opportunity for Polestar

34:32

to take share because there is a segment

34:34

of the Tesla buyer That is

34:36

right in the strike zone for Polestar Well,

34:39

that's of course where the where

34:41

Tesla started was a completely different then I

34:44

mean they had cost for hundred thousand dollars

34:46

out there And this is what I'm saying and the

34:48

Model S has not been refreshed in a long time

34:51

They leave them behind that is clear That

34:53

is where I indeed see a big opportunity

34:55

for for Polestar to address that clear and

34:57

tail again They moved into mass market and

35:00

leaving that clear and tail from the beginning

35:02

high price Tesla's model X model has I'm

35:05

definitely think that that is a very interesting Alternative

35:08

that Polestar is offering to those customers

35:11

Tesla in particular design wise the

35:13

interior of the car very minimalistic

35:16

The model 3 refresh. I think people like

35:18

it. It's a very mild refresh Reviews

35:21

I've read of it so far say we really

35:24

dislike this new control scheme I look

35:26

at you know, they're pushing everything onto the screen the interiors

35:29

are very minimal That seems to

35:31

be where they're saving some cost You've talked a

35:33

lot about the user interface of the car like

35:35

being in the car experiencing the car Is

35:38

that the differentiation here that you

35:40

can build a better more tactile experience in the

35:42

car? It's acknowledgement then it's not

35:44

just a computer on wheels. We

35:46

actually Embrace and cherish Some

35:52

of the great traditions of cars here I mean

35:55

you mentioned now that the noise and that may

35:57

be by other things we actually

36:00

agree a lot on. A

36:03

functioning steering wheel is a nice thing to

36:05

have. Now, but generally

36:08

that combination we

36:10

like, it is of course a

36:12

computer, but it is not

36:14

just a computer and wheels. It is a

36:17

very emotional, physically moving thing. We

36:20

saw that when we take the cars onto the

36:22

ice track where you very easily, even on low

36:24

speed, see how cars behave. How

36:27

you tune the car and how that incredible

36:29

power is in the car, how you make

36:31

it controllable and nicely in those available

36:34

to the driver. That's where that

36:36

element of how this great

36:39

technology is actually brought into

36:41

that perfectly tuned

36:44

masterpiece. That's this art

36:47

of creating that really great car.

36:51

It's in a way a very traditional process

36:53

in order to make that technology really

36:57

well functioning with great interaction, with

36:59

great materials, with great love and

37:02

attention to detail. That's

37:04

where we are quite old-fashioned

37:06

in that respect, cherishing that element in

37:08

it. Being a European

37:10

brand, I think it comes somehow natural

37:12

with the genes that we do it

37:15

like that. But I see as

37:17

well that we will

37:19

be always in that discourse

37:21

with ourselves. What is the

37:23

stuff where we have to push the

37:25

borders, where we have to be open

37:27

to modern technology and not be blocked

37:29

in tradition? And where is the

37:32

tradition actually very helpful in doing a great

37:34

product? That's where

37:36

I would still see us in the big bulk

37:38

very much on the innovation side. When you

37:41

see how much we have now, the

37:43

task to make people understand

37:46

that what we did with the Virgin Mirror

37:49

is actually something really

37:51

embracing modern technology to solve a problem

37:54

that there was and give a really

37:56

great answer. And that that is not

37:58

just a tech gag. but something

38:00

really providing progress. I

38:03

think that being established

38:06

in the world of driving innovation but

38:08

at the same time embracing that there

38:10

are really good great stuff in the

38:13

art of building cars from the history,

38:16

somehow we have to convince on both sides

38:18

heavily. We have to really be very

38:20

good on both ends and just

38:22

as much convince the traditional journalist who

38:25

actually likes driving our cars but thinks

38:27

oh my god this fancy idea of

38:29

a virgin. We have to convince

38:31

them that that is actually great technology and

38:33

at the same time we have to of

38:35

course make sure that people understand that we

38:38

are not just a Scandinavian European

38:40

brand that is slowly

38:43

adapting electric technology but that

38:45

we actually have by

38:47

now done an amount of for example

38:50

of over the air updates which is

38:52

you know it became super natural for

38:54

us and it's almost unnoticed that how

38:57

many over the air updates we do.

38:59

That is where we are far far

39:01

ahead of almost all of the OEMs

39:03

here in Europe. We actually have that

39:06

technology at already very much incorporated just

39:08

you know just like Tesla customers are

39:11

used to over the air updates. That's

39:13

definitely where poster is very much at

39:15

the forefront of bringing this technology to

39:18

customers. We

39:20

need to take on a quick break on our back

39:23

Thomas and I get into the in-car experience and what

39:25

that might look like in a future of increasing autonomy.

39:32

Once upon a time in America there

39:34

was no such thing as all you

39:36

can eat shrimp and then the world

39:38

changed. Today shrimp is the most

39:40

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America. The endless shrimp fiesta is

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an American institution but that shrimp

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fiesta comes at a steep price.

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Here at gastropod we found out

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that hidden behind the delicious shrimp

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on your plate is environmental disaster

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you have your shrimp and a

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clear conscience too? Actually,

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yes, and we've got the secret to

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help you unlock true lifelong

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shrimp happiness. Listen

40:08

to the latest episode of Gastropod wherever

40:10

you get your podcasts. We're

40:17

back with Polestar CEO Thomas Ewepp to discuss

40:19

his philosophy of using third-party software in the

40:21

car. So

40:24

we're listening to this Thomas is sitting in front of a

40:26

Polestar 3. The 3 is in production

40:28

now, right? It's coming out in the summer. Yep. If

40:30

you look at the interior of a Polestar 3, it

40:33

is very minimal and all of the controls have been

40:35

moved to the screen. You were

40:37

saying that the software and

40:39

the screen, right, that's all stuff you take

40:41

from the group, like the advanced technology

40:43

you take from the group and you're

40:45

doing a bunch of other engineering. What's

40:47

the balance there? Because that to me

40:49

seems like when you have

40:52

a brand and your focus is so much on

40:54

the brand and the experiences of the brand and

40:56

making the brand desirable. People

40:58

get into cars and over whatever many

41:01

years they're just gonna open Google

41:03

Maps in their center screen, tell the car

41:05

where to go, and then play on their

41:07

phones. And the experience of being

41:09

in the car is gonna diminish over time, right,

41:12

to almost a commodity. I look

41:14

at that screen, I look at the minimal interior here

41:16

and I see a big tablet in the middle of

41:19

a Polestar 3 and I say that thing is gonna

41:21

eat the rest of the car experience. It's gonna turn

41:24

all of these cars into just a

41:26

thing you buy that drive you

41:28

around. Is that a worry that you

41:30

have? No, because I see this not

41:32

happening in comparable industries.

41:35

The Google Maps screen that you see in

41:37

the car, if what you said would be

41:39

right, then any Apple iPhone

41:41

user would not cherish

41:44

the iPhone anymore because guess what? I mean

41:46

the Google Maps is the That's

41:49

not the problem. Composing

41:51

a car, it's hundreds

41:53

of elements that make the brand

41:55

experience in a car. You

41:58

do not have to invent. and everything

42:00

yourself for you to offer an

42:03

amazing product to the customer. It

42:05

includes bringing elements

42:08

in it that they actually love and

42:10

cherish. And guess what? I mean, a

42:12

lot of people love and cherish the

42:14

navigation that is provided with the Google

42:16

Maps system and to

42:18

have it that nicely and easy

42:20

integrated and being really

42:22

communicating right great with

42:25

the information that the Carcassn deliver makes it

42:27

so much more predicting the right

42:29

stuff. And so that's really where we have

42:31

to get over that hump. What makes a

42:34

brand the brand and where do you actually create

42:37

a meal, a dish that is great for

42:39

the customer? I always try to make it

42:42

that way. A great chef in the kitchen. You

42:46

don't invent your own special

42:48

vegetables. I mean, you know, they use

42:50

the carrot, the onion. I mean, it

42:52

is what everybody else is using as

42:54

well. But you create a dish which

42:56

is unique and amazing. And of

42:58

course, that's how that element

43:00

of a Google Maps comes into our car.

43:03

So last June, you announced a joint venture

43:05

with a Chinese company called Xinji Meizu, also

43:07

part of the Geely family. They

43:09

have a platform called Flyme. That's the software

43:11

you're going to use in Polestar cars in

43:14

China. Is that because you can't use

43:16

Google services in China that you have to go to

43:18

another provider? No, I mean,

43:20

that's that's not the reason why we do it. Not

43:23

being able to use Google Maps is for

43:26

forever, I mean, for a long time, the case in

43:28

China. We did provide

43:30

software so far in our cars that

43:32

had, I mean, that one

43:34

navigation system that that's what

43:36

we did always before. But

43:40

we always compose and nevertheless with the

43:42

Chinese elements and the Chinese app store,

43:45

a software offer that, of

43:47

course, at the end of the day, is very

43:49

much driven and and decided

43:51

with a very European mindset.

43:55

And I think that is failing and

43:57

the speed that we were able to

43:59

do. that with our

44:01

own organization in China, can't

44:04

compete with the speed that you

44:06

need in order to. Very

44:09

similar in a way how the entertainment

44:11

system is now something that we do

44:13

together with the gas system. Here

44:16

we see, and it goes that step

44:18

further, that actually the whole phone experience

44:20

is linked to the software

44:22

of the car. That's unit

44:24

of phone car having

44:26

exactly the same operating system

44:29

and really making that a

44:31

unique experience. Yes, that's

44:33

the idea about going together with a

44:35

mobile phone device company,

44:37

Xingjie Meiju, then bringing

44:39

their phone and that software on

44:41

into the car and us delivering

44:43

the car experience and melting that

44:45

together. We believe that for

44:48

the Chinese customer, that experience will

44:50

be that much more according

44:52

to the needs and what they expect. When

44:55

we did that, then we had the cooperation

44:57

going and for the poster four is the

44:59

first car that will have the poster OS

45:01

and two days before Beijing Motor Show, we

45:04

will actually present that to a higher degree

45:06

than to the public. I

45:08

noticed that the discussion that we

45:10

had and of course we monitored how are

45:12

they doing now this poster OS, which

45:15

is indeed based on this Flyme base. Yes,

45:19

I thought, oh, we were

45:21

like, do you really want to do it like

45:23

that? Naturally, we would

45:26

have done a different hierarchy and

45:28

how the interaction

45:30

is laid out and do you, naturally for

45:32

us, shouldn't we reduce it and make it

45:34

a bit more simple and

45:38

clearer and less visually

45:40

complex. It

45:42

was interesting to see how

45:45

our Chinese partner, they said, no,

45:47

no, that's actually, I thought,

45:50

yeah, that's exactly where we would have taken

45:52

a different turn and would have probably

45:55

done it in our very European

45:57

way and I think there were

46:00

with the language barrier as well

46:02

that there is. I mean, it's so

46:04

different characters and stuff. It's very difficult

46:06

to do all this interface stuff. You're

46:08

describing to me, I think, the

46:11

central tension of

46:13

the auto industry outside of the EV

46:15

transition. Who's gonna own

46:17

the user interface? And ultimately, who's gonna

46:20

monetize that user interface? You mentioned app

46:22

stores. I know that GM

46:24

and other companies really wanna develop app

46:26

stores and have recurring revenue and take

46:28

30% the way that Google and Apple

46:30

do. Volvo CEO Jim Rowan

46:32

was on the show recently. He

46:35

was talking about how that's a bad idea and he

46:37

wants to have recurring revenue in insurance

46:39

programs and other ideas. There's all these

46:41

ideas about how to basically

46:44

get to phone levels

46:46

of revenue inside the car, right? Instead of a

46:48

single purchase, you have an ongoing series of purchases

46:50

in the car, especially as the cars start to

46:52

drive themselves. Who is gonna own

46:55

that screen? Is a tension that

46:57

I think it's there. You can see it with

46:59

different car makers in different ways. It's there in

47:01

the industry, you can see it in the industry,

47:03

but it hasn't kind of boiled over, right? There's

47:05

GM, which said, we're not gonna do car play

47:07

anymore. We're all in on Google and we're gonna

47:09

have our own app store and that

47:11

will play out however it plays out. There's

47:14

you, you said you're all in on car

47:16

play. You've talked on this show about how

47:18

you don't think that is the central point

47:20

of differentiation for a consumer, whether it's Google

47:22

Maps or not. I've heard it

47:24

from other automakers. But

47:27

if you hand over the user experience

47:29

to another company and say the Chinese

47:31

market demands a different hierarchy of menus,

47:34

right? Because that's what they want. It's a totally different

47:36

operating system with different applications on the screen, a

47:39

different approach to how we even organize a

47:41

computer. And in this market, it's totally different.

47:44

And then yet another market, Apple's just gonna take

47:46

over and it's car playing every car. At

47:49

some point, don't you lose something? It

47:52

feels like that's the tension the industry

47:54

can't quite articulate, but certainly is feeling.

47:57

And now it goes back to that question. Who... Who

48:00

owns the owner? Nobody

48:02

owns them. They are having their free decision. Let

48:06

me give you an example. If

48:08

you have a car... Let me ask

48:10

you that much more specifically. Would you

48:12

take Apple's CarPlay that takes over every screen

48:14

in the car, and just let Apple's operating

48:16

system run everything in the car? They've announced

48:18

it. They have two partners, but it doesn't

48:20

seem to be shipping. You

48:22

say everything. And the question is, what

48:25

is everything? People thought as well that

48:27

our gas system is the software in the car.

48:29

And of course... By the

48:31

way, just to clarify, gas is Google Automotive Services. Yeah. The

48:35

majority of the software of the car

48:37

is hidden in the background. It is

48:39

our software, which is doing all the

48:41

drivetrain, the safety, everything. I mean,

48:43

that is where we really talk about it. But

48:46

it's an important part. I will not take that

48:48

away. It's a very important part because it's a

48:50

customer. But it's not the part of the car

48:52

that has shopping buttons in it. It's

48:55

not the part of the car where people can sign

48:57

up for subscription services. That's

48:59

the monetization that everyone's headed towards. Yeah, but

49:01

do you think that we will

49:04

make now big bucks with Spotify

49:06

being in our app store, that

49:09

that will now shift

49:11

our revenue opportunity? That

49:13

is, that the customer can

49:15

listen to their Spotify app in

49:17

our car, and their

49:19

subscription that they have with Spotify, that

49:22

mainly makes our car at all

49:25

a purchase. Yeah.

49:28

In the purchase basket. We should

49:30

not kid ourselves how much we

49:32

can develop apps

49:34

and earn money on them. I

49:36

mean, sorry, that is the kind

49:38

of story. It's not good in

49:40

developing entertainment apps like Spotify streaming

49:42

stuff. I mean, maybe at some

49:44

point, I don't think either that

49:46

that is what Google

49:50

and Apple makes them getting into

49:52

that business. They are complete

49:54

different opportunities. A big

49:57

great shift will be the experience

49:59

of unsupervised. supervised piloting

50:01

in a car. That

50:03

moment you actually offer something

50:05

to the customer which is beyond what they

50:08

experienced so far. I

50:10

definitely think that that will open revenue

50:13

streams for the car industry where

50:15

you can open different

50:17

doors. The other thing is how

50:20

much you can keep your car alive and

50:22

modern. I mean today you purchase a car

50:24

and we have

50:27

clearly already today and not any

50:29

more the expectation that this car

50:32

stays, the software and everything like it

50:35

is will always be the same. There

50:38

will be opportunities actually to

50:40

upgrade the car and not

50:42

do it now totally for free but

50:45

there are certain functions and features that

50:47

you can develop over time that you

50:49

actually then of course have a new

50:51

revenue stream by for example

50:53

the unsupervised highway piloting.

50:57

These are things where I think really

50:59

the value added is where the companies,

51:01

the car companies can actually develop

51:04

into something more than just

51:06

selling a car once but

51:08

actually having opportunities to for

51:11

an enhanced experience that you can charge for.

51:14

The stuff that we have in

51:17

the App Store from in

51:19

our in the Google system what

51:21

comes through what Flyme does bring

51:24

you as an App Store experience.

51:26

I would say these are tick in the box

51:28

you have to be able for customers to access

51:31

the music

51:33

channels, the entertainment channels when they are charging that

51:36

they are used to so that they don't take

51:38

out their phone and look at the stuff on

51:40

their phone but that they actually can look at

51:42

it and the big screen that you have there.

51:45

For me this is naive to think that you

51:47

could charge extra for them watching the stuff that

51:49

they anyway can watch on your phone for them

51:51

to be accessing that in the car. So

51:54

let me ask you Apple has the car play where it takes

51:56

over all the stuff. Yeah and all the stuff where. Would you

51:58

do it? Yeah, of course. Because

52:03

I know that they're not taking over the car.

52:05

It is a catered

52:07

experience. Okay, then you have

52:09

a certain interface that is

52:12

more different by Apple. I believe that we

52:14

have to be proud enough and powerful enough

52:16

thinking that we actually have a very

52:19

competitive and great original experience that we

52:21

do that together with the gas system.

52:24

I'm not afraid of that competition and

52:26

it would be strange to prohibit

52:29

our customers if they have that preference.

52:31

I mean, I have that experience in

52:33

smaller scale. I mean, I was always

52:35

asking when I was driving, actually

52:37

in the poster too in the UK, and

52:40

then the driver was actually running waste.

52:42

And I asked, why do you use waste? And

52:45

okay, there are certain preferences they are used

52:47

to it. They like that that car does

52:49

this and this. Fine, if they want to

52:51

have waste, then run waste in our

52:53

cars. And of course, we should cater for them

52:55

to be able to now we actually do

52:58

it. Later, they don't have to

53:00

do it for their phone anymore. Now there's a that

53:02

that app is included, and you can push the

53:04

button and instead of the Google

53:06

Maps, you run it on waste. I

53:09

really think we are here to provide to

53:11

the customer that they can use the car

53:13

they want to use the car and not

53:15

to be dogmatic about Oh, no, we don't

53:17

offer that. All right, I only

53:20

have a few minutes left with you. You're a designer. And I

53:22

like asking about car design. 2021 you're

53:24

on the show, it was the height of

53:26

what I would call the angry robot era

53:29

in car design, particularly from the Japanese brands.

53:31

And I asked you about BMWs masterfuls. I

53:34

think that era has changed. We

53:36

are into an interesting sort of retro

53:38

future moment. That's on

53:40

the India for sure. But the Rivian

53:43

are three designs, particularly our three x

53:45

very retro future very organic. What do

53:47

you think is happening here? Is it consumer demand?

53:49

Is this design trends? How are you thinking about

53:51

it? It's the way it goes.

53:54

It's history. It's history taking

53:58

place. I mean, car design. is

54:00

developing, it's according to society, streams,

54:02

it's always a reflection of what's

54:04

happening in culture and

54:06

society. And indeed, I see that

54:09

as well. I actually applaud

54:11

it. I'm happy that we are out

54:13

of this super aggressive and, and

54:17

again, it's of course a reflection of

54:19

the period where the whole world is

54:21

in. The danger that I see is

54:23

of course, that instead of developing new

54:25

expressions and new formative

54:28

elements that you're too much on

54:30

just reflecting what has happened in

54:32

the past. That's of

54:34

course a tricky bit of making now that

54:36

translation into come on. Okay, yes, we cherish

54:38

a bit more certain historical values in, you

54:41

know, great car design, but how do you

54:43

drive it into the future? How do you

54:45

make it actually a modern trend

54:47

and not just a retro trend? But

54:50

I mean, that's

54:53

good and great creativity out there.

54:55

It's fun by now again to actually

54:57

go onto, you know, whatever car show

54:59

is left and actually see what's happening

55:01

there. And it's obvious

55:05

that there is as

55:07

well a certain, I

55:10

call it now, unsecurity on testing new

55:12

ground and trying, you know, you see

55:15

how, for example, BMW is putting out,

55:17

you know, a study of how their

55:19

future direction can look like. But it's

55:22

great that companies feel the

55:24

need and the necessity to actually define

55:27

and open that new epoch and

55:29

actually enter it and on

55:31

the way of defining it. So great.

55:34

And partly it makes as well

55:36

our story easier because certain elements that we

55:39

have been promoting some

55:42

years ago, obviously find recognition

55:44

in that. And by that as well,

55:46

kind of make it as

55:48

well for the customer choosing our cars,

55:51

kind of a

55:53

confirmation of the style

55:55

that we are promoting is actually what

55:57

is leading into the future. Do

56:00

you see that turn towards

56:03

retrofuturism or safer designs? It

56:06

felt like EVs inspired a lot of companies

56:08

to get as radical as possible, right? Because

56:10

the packaging of the car was different. You didn't

56:12

have a transmission tunnel. You

56:14

could do a front. You could do anything you want,

56:17

right? The EV is just packaged inherently differently. And

56:19

so there was a push towards radicalism. Some

56:22

companies pushed very safely, right? The F-150

56:24

Lightning is an F-150. Do

56:27

you see that coming into a

56:29

coherent place where it's like, okay,

56:31

people just, they just want the EV drivetrain

56:33

and they want a cool car? Or are

56:35

we still in that, actually we can package

56:37

the car entirely differently? No, it's a bit more

56:39

sophisticated by now. It's not just, ah, here's a

56:41

bright white field. Let's just

56:43

run. It has to make sense.

56:46

I mean, meaning, putting meaning into it. That's

56:49

certainly one element. The other element is that

56:52

the recognition that it's not just

56:54

enough to look futuristic. You

56:56

still have to work on giving

56:59

your brand profile. So the face of

57:01

the car just looking futuristic is not

57:03

good enough. Guess what? There

57:07

are 20, 50 cars out there by

57:09

now that look futuristic just on first

57:11

glance. By now, you definitely have to

57:13

be that much more sophisticated in crafting

57:16

it and finding your expression

57:18

of it. So that's where

57:20

we definitely reached much more

57:24

beyond that first wave. We are

57:26

definitely now in the

57:29

time when, yes, clearly electric

57:32

car design is driving the future of

57:34

car design. I mean, guess what? We

57:36

are talking about car design, which obviously,

57:38

I mean, would you

57:40

discuss the future trend of hybrid

57:42

cars? No, of course there is

57:45

this one trend of car design.

57:47

And it is very much influenced

57:49

by electric cars. And

57:51

that's where we are now in that

57:54

more sophisticated stage where that type of

57:56

electric car design look, how does it

57:58

now become that sophisticated? brand

58:00

expression, characters, different categories

58:02

of cars actually find

58:05

craftsmanship, their category, their catalog

58:07

of expression. I definitely

58:10

embrace that we are beyond that first

58:13

happiness about the car just looking for touristic.

58:16

There's retro future, there's organic shapes,

58:18

there's everybody calm down. Then

58:20

there's the Cybertruck, which is

58:22

an angry triangle. Does that represent

58:24

anything to you or is that just a design

58:27

direction that you're interested in seeing what happens?

58:30

Very iconic design and shape and stuff.

58:32

You can do that once, but it

58:34

doesn't define a car line. I

58:37

don't see that that would start

58:40

a new trend or whatever. It's

58:42

a very exotic, singular

58:44

moment in car history. For

58:48

that reason, great. I embrace

58:50

it. It's very brave and

58:52

of course a technical challenge

58:54

to do it. Aesthetically,

58:57

it has its limitation and

58:59

what the

59:02

doors had put open. For

59:04

that reason, it's always amazing

59:06

to see that car history is full

59:08

of this individual moment

59:10

that has happened something which was amazing

59:13

and outstanding, but in a way, it did

59:16

not lead to much. That

59:18

is where at

59:20

the moment, Jesus asked me in two years, but

59:22

at the moment, I can't see that that would

59:25

lead to anything beyond that

59:27

one single product. I

59:29

think aesthetically, it has its limitations. This is

59:31

my new favorite response

59:33

to things. I'm just going to hold on to

59:36

that forever. All right, Thomas, this has been wonderful.

59:38

Tell the people what's next for Polestar? What

59:40

should they be looking for? Well, three

59:43

and four on the road. That will be

59:46

hopefully an amazing experience

59:48

to see this cars not just on

59:51

the front of a magazine, but actually see

59:53

it passing by because let's face it, that's

59:55

still one of the things I

59:57

experienced that again and again. What

1:00:00

happened? However, we try to visualize to

1:00:02

me, it is only when

1:00:04

you have the chance to see it on

1:00:06

the road that you actually grasp the dimension

1:00:08

of it and what it really does. So

1:00:10

that's of course very exciting. What people should

1:00:12

expect from us definitely developing

1:00:16

the element of performance

1:00:18

in our brands stronger.

1:00:21

And you know what we started with the

1:00:23

Beast edition of the BST edition of the

1:00:26

Polestar And

1:00:28

I call it now cheeky lead. You

1:00:30

know that's fun of having electric cars

1:00:32

that have that kind of culture of

1:00:34

making it an

1:00:37

automotive fun, desirable car. That

1:00:39

element we want to embrace. When we have

1:00:41

Polestar 3.4 out, the 5 will come. And

1:00:44

that's definitely, I was in

1:00:46

the prototype actually

1:00:49

in Coventry last

1:00:52

week. It's so amazing to see this

1:00:54

car coming together. So 2025 this car

1:00:56

then coming on the road. I

1:00:58

think that completion of having then the range of 2, 3,

1:01:00

4 and 5 out, then you have a

1:01:05

brand together, a brand Polestar, how we always

1:01:07

envisaged it in the first place. And I'm

1:01:09

really looking forward for people to be

1:01:12

able to see that on the road. Polestar

1:01:14

famously launched with the Polestar 1, which was

1:01:16

a hybrid, a very high performance hybrid, a

1:01:18

GT, school car. And

1:01:21

you moved it when I were all EVs. Hybrids

1:01:23

are having a little bit of a resurgence here

1:01:25

in the US. You can see the sales growth.

1:01:27

You can see politicians and

1:01:29

car makers are saying hybrids are the way because

1:01:31

they solve the range anxiety problem. Would

1:01:34

you ever do a hybrid again? I never say

1:01:36

never. Having said that, technology

1:01:39

is moving. And

1:01:41

we definitely would have to

1:01:43

embrace innovation to a

1:01:46

much bigger extent. And we cannot

1:01:48

just do the hybrid as a hybrid as it

1:01:50

was. I believe

1:01:52

as well. I

1:01:55

went on that as performance.

1:01:59

If we want to do. something like a

1:02:01

Polestar 1 with that performance. I

1:02:03

mean, Jesus, that's where nothing

1:02:05

beats electric power. It would be

1:02:07

very difficult to do something

1:02:11

that can compete with a

1:02:13

pure electric performance car. So

1:02:16

show me the tech that can do that, and then we

1:02:18

are talking. Great, well, Thomas, thank you so much for being

1:02:20

on Decoder, I really appreciate it. Pleasure, and

1:02:22

thanks a lot for the time you gave me. I'd

1:02:27

like to thank Thomas for taking the time to join Decoder today, and

1:02:30

thank you for listening. I hope you enjoyed it. If

1:02:32

you'd like to let us know what you thought about

1:02:34

the show, or really anything else, what you'd like us

1:02:36

to cover, thoughts, you can email us at decoderattheverge.com. We

1:02:38

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1:02:40

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1:02:42

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1:02:44

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1:02:46

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1:02:48

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1:02:50

your podcasts. Decoder's a production of The Verge, and part

1:02:52

of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Today's episode is produced

1:02:54

by Kate Cox, and next to that, it was edited

1:02:56

by Kelly Wright. Supervising producer is Liam

1:02:58

James, and Decoder Music is by Brent

1:03:00

Masterson. We'll see you next time.