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to catch up on the latest

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episodes without the ads. Are

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non Ryan grim at Welcome to

0:32

Deconstructed and today on the show

0:34

rejoined by Jake Johnson. He's the

0:37

author of the new book Aid

0:39

State, Elite, Panic, Disaster, Capitalism and

0:41

the Battle To Control Haiti. Jake.

0:44

Thanks. So much for joining me thinks rather me.

0:46

I thought this was a conversation we been

0:48

planning for quite some time, but it. Turns.

0:51

Out that you've published your book on Haiti. You're.

0:53

Quite into the a news firestorm

0:56

which seems like happens every what.

0:58

Three. To ten years you've written for The Intercept

1:01

a bunch in the past. I've been following your

1:03

great work for a long time, so this is

1:05

something that you've seen unfold. was the timeline. How

1:07

often does Haiti? Pop. Into the news.

1:10

Yes, Certainly there's been a bit of

1:12

a cycle we've seen this happen time and

1:14

again. Each decade there's been a big a

1:17

big event that is certainly capture the world's

1:19

attention and brigade regard to Haiti. And there's

1:21

sort of a contrast there with. The.

1:23

Moments of intense attention.

1:26

And. Then far longer periods

1:28

of. Total. Silence.

1:31

Let's. Set the stage a little bit. Let's

1:34

start around the earthquake and also the election.

1:36

Of. Twenty Ten that seems to be.

1:39

A defining moment that sets the course. For

1:41

now so to talk a little bit about this. Wild.

1:44

Election of Twenty Ten. So.

1:47

As you mentioned rate this was two thousand

1:49

and ten. There was a devastating earthquake. Huge

1:51

earthquake that hit just outside of Port Au

1:53

Prince in January. Two thousand and ten hundreds

1:55

of thousands up to a million displaced have

1:58

to hundreds of thousands of dead Did. Hard

2:00

to overstate the destruction of this earthquake

2:02

and and the ripple effects that it

2:04

had for the whole country. That's obviously

2:06

a really challenging environment to hold an

2:08

election in by the million people displaced.

2:10

Were they supposed to vote to the

2:12

even have their documentation things like this.

2:14

But this was also a moment of

2:16

extreme importance for the international community. And

2:18

when we talk about the international community

2:20

in Haiti, we're talking predominantly about the

2:22

United States. So there were ten billion

2:24

dollars pledged from. Governments. Across

2:26

the World to build back Better which is

2:28

a phrase that keeps getting recycled in various

2:31

different context and this again is just such

2:33

as do this is too good you got

2:35

a Cb Zoo vague to good to not

2:37

keep using it so that was the mantra.

2:40

Does all this money you had Bill Clinton

2:42

with the Special Envoy in Haiti. Hillary Clinton

2:44

was Secretary of State at the time so

2:46

this was not just important to the money,

2:48

but this is a political thing. There was

2:51

huge was any Cheryl Mills over. There are

2:53

gear all the time as exactly So there

2:55

was a high level interested in this process

2:57

and that meant there was a lot riding

2:59

on this electoral process and getting a government

3:02

that could be the desirable ally that we

3:04

have looked for and eighty four a very

3:06

long time and failed to achieve some sort

3:08

listen to us perspective And so there's a

3:10

lot riding on this boat. And.

3:13

A lot of challenges the doing and so. It

3:15

was really pushed forward by these international to

3:17

say okay we have to have this but

3:19

you need to have this votes to they

3:22

schedule it or nine months after the earthquake

3:24

and it was quite predictably. A

3:26

mess right? I mean it was really

3:28

difficult, people were turned away from the

3:31

voting polls and that day of the

3:33

election around midday a number of political

3:35

parties held a press conference and there's

3:37

an interesting known again to in the

3:39

books that statement had been drafted at

3:41

of time the room had been reserved

3:43

ahead of time. This was a coordinated

3:45

efforts but are midday on election a

3:47

group of parties coming together and announced

3:49

a whole thing as a fraud accused

3:51

the government than led by Rene Preval

3:53

of orchestrating this this huge fraudulent plan

3:55

to choose his new leader. Denouncing

3:57

the whole electoral process and setting.

4:00

The street protests both in the capital

4:02

and in rural areas that shut down

4:04

the vote entirely and so. Hours

4:07

after That. Is a meeting at

4:09

the headquarters of the chief Un diplomat and Haiti.

4:11

This goes back to a little more context but

4:13

the you and is at a permanent presence in

4:16

Haiti for the last twenty years. a political mission

4:18

on the ground that is served in a lot

4:20

of ways. sort of a de facto fourth branch

4:22

of government in Haiti. and they convened all the

4:24

diplomats together and. They. Sub prime minister

4:27

at the time and actually discussed at that meeting.

4:29

Sending. A plane to take the President fly

4:31

him out of the country. At this point it

4:33

was no longer an election. This wasn't about them,

4:36

Actually, this was just a political problem to be

4:38

Soft rights and. It

4:41

goes on from there. Of course, when

4:43

we actually get results of the election

4:45

a few days later, it shows an

4:47

extremely tight race between three candidates which

4:49

generates more chaos and more confusion or

4:51

what's going to happen. And in that

4:53

context, the Us. Reach. An

4:56

Agreement: Some pressure the his government to bring

4:58

the Organization of American States this is the

5:00

regional grouping All of the Hemispheres governments to

5:02

come in, analyzed the vote and give the

5:04

to accounting of what happened. But

5:07

what they ended up doing? Without.

5:09

Any full recount of the votes without

5:11

any statistical analysis of the twenty percent

5:13

of the vote that never even showed

5:16

up at the tabulation center. Is

5:19

they just changed the results and they took the

5:21

government preferred candidate out. And they

5:23

put this individual, an ostensible

5:26

newcomer to Haitian politics popular

5:28

musician Michel Martelly into the

5:30

all important second round vote.

5:33

And he eventually went on to win the presidency

5:35

and Michel Martelly. In my understanding

5:37

you know he and Us Foreign

5:39

policy better. This was Hillary Clinton.

5:41

Bill Clinton's candidate. Like this is

5:43

who. They. Wanted to see make it

5:45

through. Yeah, I'd I'd say that's right, I think.

5:48

They're often crimes of opportunity raisins. And

5:50

so whether this was their candidate from

5:53

the beginning or whether there was a

5:55

momentous is going into business exactly was

5:57

recognizing that's what was on the table

5:59

and. One little, the one. they

6:01

wanted rights. And there was that choice

6:04

that was made. And Martelly and his

6:06

campaign had a lot of. Help.

6:08

Read me. this is again. This is a

6:11

time where there was a lot of celebrity

6:13

interest in a by you had big name

6:15

Hollywood stars showing up on the ground. Sean

6:17

Penn was down there right as later became

6:19

an ambassador at large for the martelly government

6:22

stig musicians. Why class prize with so there

6:24

was a lot of tension and high level

6:26

focus. And Martelly the as so man that's

6:28

his background is a stage persona and I

6:30

think he played into that really well and.

6:33

For. The lot of people. And your assertion?

6:35

Hear that they just changed devotes his.

6:37

We're not just. That. That not

6:40

just a supposition on your part, you I

6:42

were talking yesterday about this radio interview. Or

6:45

that has bounced around New Haiti for

6:47

years now. The head of the electoral

6:49

Commission. Years. Afterwards when on the

6:51

radio with a journalist or we can play a

6:53

very tiny clip of a it's Not An English.

6:56

To. Tell

7:06

us basically he a what the head of

7:09

this election commission is claiming here claiming isn't

7:11

the words admitting to and apologizing for as

7:13

I think this better way of putting am

7:16

in most simple terms. He sang. The.

7:18

Results we presented. We're not the actual results.

7:20

Frank's right sided directly from the head of

7:22

the last week. Best what is. I guess

7:24

it's also it's not just this that elaborate

7:26

their electoral council as there were members of

7:28

actor council who denounces as it was happening.

7:30

We did our own them at me or

7:33

exists and I work for the Center for

7:35

Economic and Policy Research. We transcribed by hand

7:37

twelve thousand and tally seats our heard that

7:39

were processed by the electoral council and posted

7:41

online and ran around statistical tests to see

7:43

where the fraud was happening and what was

7:45

going on and it's not to. There was

7:47

no fraud. right? The real lesson here?

7:49

That. Any choice about who was gonna

7:51

advance out of this process where the vote was

7:54

shut down halfway through the election election day where

7:56

million people were displaced and turned away from the

7:58

voting polls are twenty percent about never. Dot

8:00

counted or brought he likes. It was going to

8:02

be a decision You couldn't tell who won the

8:04

selection right? He was. That. Flawed.

8:07

And so. You. Had to understand it.

8:09

Any answer they gave was going be political

8:11

unless you we ran the elections and the

8:13

government actually offered to do that. And.

8:15

It was flatly rejected by the international community.

8:18

And so you use the phrase aid State as

8:20

that the title of your books what You is

8:22

in a State and Out as Michel Martelly and

8:24

his gang kind of fit into that. Yes I

8:27

I use it because it's really easy. as in

8:29

for folks coming in and out are seeing eighty

8:31

pop up in the news once a decade or

8:33

two. For some they might as well as a

8:35

crisis. You look at eighty and. Is.

8:37

A out there's a failed state. The

8:39

impression that that gives his Haiti can't

8:41

govern itself. Of course this more outside

8:43

intervention is the answer to what's happening

8:45

at So Aid State is really trying

8:47

to push back on that as a

8:49

narrative and to broaden our understanding of

8:51

what has led to the failures we

8:53

seats and that involves not just Asians

8:55

and in fact a been a leading

8:57

role. Non. Haitians and

8:59

particularly foreign governments. and again, the

9:02

United States government booth played an

9:04

outside, outsized role when Haitian affairs

9:06

certainly over the last few decades.

9:08

But this is obviously a story

9:10

that a snow go back centuries

9:12

read to it's independence, successful flavor

9:14

of halts country punished by the

9:16

rest of the world for it's

9:18

freedom, right? And so there's a

9:20

long history there. This dynamic has

9:22

existed, but I think really over

9:25

the last twenty years, and especially

9:27

since the earthquake, this influx. Of

9:29

Foreign Assistance of outside assistance

9:31

and support. As

9:33

had really negative political implications. And so

9:35

the way Martelly I think fits into

9:38

this most directly is again through this

9:40

electoral process. He was then in power.

9:42

and then you had all of these

9:44

international actors whose interest was. Supporting.

9:47

This new person in power getting all

9:49

of their projects done red. Ribbon.

9:51

Cutting ceremony is big brochures and flashy

9:53

things and celebrity intrigue. And read it

9:55

was. it was something other than the

9:57

interest of the Haitian people at stake.

10:00

Here and so he was sort

10:02

of the front man for this

10:04

whole thing. But the results of

10:06

that are twofold. One, these A

10:08

policies totally undermined local organizations, the

10:10

state itself, and to mortally was

10:12

in power systematically dismantling those institutions

10:14

on the inside as well. And

10:16

instead of. Saying. Whoa. whoa

10:18

whoa. Why are we backing this guy?

10:21

Is all of these democratic checks and

10:23

balances and corruption sorts proliferates. We

10:26

just back that because for the

10:28

United States for it external actors,

10:30

the priority in Haiti has almost

10:32

always been short term stability Overall

10:34

Else I think for a lot

10:36

of well meaning people who are

10:38

following the tragic saga. Of

10:40

Haiti over the last few decades and

10:42

centuries. The. Often throw their hands up

10:44

and say what a shame, what a mess that

10:47

we really don't have any other choice other than

10:49

to have the. Send. In a Peacekeeping

10:51

force or we just need to take

10:53

control of this of the situation or

10:55

from them without thinking. That.

10:58

Is what. External forces

11:00

have been doing. To. Haiti

11:02

for decades. Yet. We

11:04

continue to think what's the problem must be

11:06

the Haitians. It can't be the

11:08

thing that we keep doing prior year after

11:11

year after year. we just need to do

11:13

it better and harder and is that will

11:15

do it. And Wagner learned our lessons or

11:17

will learn from our past mistakes right and

11:19

so. In that context,

11:22

I. Want to talk about some of the internal

11:24

Haitian politics that you touch on in the

11:26

book? And I hope that Listers can think

11:28

about it through the lens of. The.

11:30

Constant. A. Screw ups.

11:33

A. Constant making things worse.

11:36

That. The West has brought to bear

11:38

when it comes to Haiti. Rather than

11:40

thinking okay, well it's real shame. Or

11:42

the Un. Need to send in

11:44

a bunch of Kenyans. Said. Like crack

11:47

to think? Well, maybe not. What

11:49

if that's not? The. Thing to

11:51

do. What? If we're going to get the

11:53

same result from that that we got all these

11:55

their time. So a couple characters in your book

11:57

that I wanted to linger on. Felipe?

12:00

yeah, who'd as such? an

12:03

absolutely fascinating. Life Story

12:05

Police Officer who runs death

12:07

squads and. Leads. To.

12:10

But. He is a much more complicated

12:12

figure today. So. Who is

12:14

gay? Felipe? Yeah so as is a

12:17

fun history hair everywhere with gates? Yes

12:19

Oh geez story in a lot of

12:21

ways as starts in the early nineties.

12:23

he was trained in Ecuador. Actually he

12:25

was training to be com part of

12:27

the military and eighty Ecuador strong presence

12:29

of Us military the time as a

12:31

Human Rights Watch said, he received Us

12:33

training at this time in Ecuador and

12:36

he's there with her. a cadre of

12:38

other. People. Training to become military

12:40

officers. When they come back to Haiti they

12:42

come back to the recently restored Jumper. Charters

12:44

Teeth was overthrown in a military coup And

12:47

Ninety Ninety One. So a Ninety five he

12:49

actually disband. The military says it's military for

12:51

residents you know be involved with twos internal

12:53

repression. This we don't face external threats, We

12:56

face internal threats In the military is not

12:58

semitic and republic is not dating a exactly

13:00

celts the military get suspended and and that

13:02

we the bunch of these new recruits including

13:05

like he Felipe served. With. Nowhere

13:07

to land like D Bat vocation didn't

13:09

Two thousand and three and at the

13:11

same time there's a new police force

13:13

being stood up in Haiti with a

13:15

lot of international supports vetting officer is

13:17

overseeing was getting put into it and

13:19

a bunch of these military of your

13:21

train for the military get incorporate into

13:23

this new police force including D. Felipe

13:25

and a number of other. Former.

13:27

Military people train for the military are

13:29

put into positions of leadership in the

13:32

in the police and in two thousand

13:34

T Felipe leads a attempted coup or

13:36

attack on the National Palace then held

13:38

by Rene Preval the President and but

13:41

he was about to hold an election

13:43

and and the most likely outcome was

13:45

Eris deeds return to power in two

13:47

thousand and one in so. This was

13:50

so is really against our see, a

13:52

preemptive strike to stop air steed from

13:54

coming back to office. After that You

13:56

know this denounced. Okay provides this is

13:59

a cool. And kicks off

14:01

the from the police. A number of

14:03

these section chiefs are our people who

14:05

can control different communities in Haiti. A

14:08

big group of them were involved in

14:10

this are all train in Ecuador and

14:12

is a little a little click and

14:14

they flee to the Dominican Republic, get

14:17

safe haven from the Dominican authorities there

14:19

and basically set up shop across the

14:21

border and began organizing and training and

14:24

coordinating to lead a paramilitary assaults on

14:26

Haiti which they begin in earnest a

14:28

number of years later. In Two

14:30

Thousand and Four and that is

14:33

the paramilitary side of. The.

14:35

Get not the only reason or the only

14:37

factor in the overthrow their season two thousand

14:39

and four, but certainly a significant player in

14:42

in that effort. So. He has hinted

14:44

that he had links to the U S. Do.

14:46

Think that's accurate and also. What

14:49

was his beef with Aristide? Yeah, so

14:51

at his billionaires and this is a

14:53

guy who has said just about everything

14:55

over the years rates is that admirer

14:57

of Che Infidel, but also Bush and

14:59

Pinochet. Okay so what his ideology is

15:02

here very much unclear what his ultimate

15:04

goal is. I think is is also

15:06

little bit unclear. What we know is

15:08

that he was also deeply involved with

15:10

drug trafficking at the time It I

15:12

think as much of anything from what

15:14

I understand there was a some sort

15:17

of a beef over control of the

15:19

drugs are hypocrites and terms of us

15:21

support. There's. No doubt that there

15:23

was gen U S support the to the

15:25

the U S was trying to undermine Sd

15:27

government from them moment they stepped foot in

15:30

office And so there was a certain shared

15:32

goal in that regard with Gates was involved

15:34

announcing in the first exactly so you're going

15:36

to do something in the book you my

15:38

eyesight am a former Cia analyst who is

15:41

looking at this at the time and is

15:43

sees as group of guys and Dominican Republic

15:45

and they've.com logistics good carbs this to be

15:47

getting all these big arms like okay what's

15:50

going on is as are somehow sources. The

15:52

A different this this year. according to him

15:54

he looks into it. know a wasn't the

15:56

Cia but it was the State Department that

15:58

was actually providing the supports and. The time

16:00

read the State Department has a number of

16:02

these cold warriors who had been around in

16:04

the early nineties when I received was overthrown

16:06

the first time and they've come back and

16:08

guy and overthrow of a job as in

16:10

Venezuela right era. Steve Stivers is the only

16:12

one in Latin America arrested denounced the coup

16:14

against their season two thousand and four some.

16:16

They're all of these players and connections you

16:18

know in is something obviously much bigger than

16:20

just hate to. This was a concern of

16:23

of this or neo cons inside the Bush

16:25

Administration at the time. Adults I think the

16:27

best evans we have is that that was

16:29

the main Us support. For this effort was was

16:31

actually through the State Department. And

16:33

so then he felipe. He gets

16:35

what kind of back stabbed a little bit. he

16:37

doesn't Man, he. These. Successful and

16:39

cooing. Aristide, but he doesn't

16:42

really have managed to take power, and in

16:44

Texas seems like a slinks the way back

16:46

to obscurity for a while. Yeah, there's a

16:48

certain parallel to what we're seeing now where

16:50

Be is going around and claiming himself to

16:53

be President's at the time at his threat

16:55

of force was almost leverage to push Eris

16:57

to eat out read: not necessarily a direct

16:59

threat. To. Your seed. but. Provided.

17:01

The leveraged necessary to push air is T. That's

17:03

so he made the other many people in the

17:06

private sector who were pushing for as it I

17:08

would say satirizes Cetera, people were. You.

17:10

Know he was the muscle behind this political

17:12

effort to topple Air Estates or at least

17:14

the perceive muscle. But once it's gone though,

17:16

he wants him to be the one of

17:18

our source. His buddies right itself exactly. He

17:21

gets basically dead by the people who had

17:23

just been using him to to seek this

17:25

overthrow and basically fades and a mean he

17:27

is. Originally his base of support is in

17:29

the Grand Aunts. It's It's one of the

17:32

most remote parts of Haiti. It's in the

17:34

southern peninsula all the way that that the

17:36

tip there and.is where he stayed for most

17:38

of the next decade. But he pretty

17:40

quickly found himself on the Da's most Wanted Fugitives

17:42

Less read a mean this was something is those

17:44

drug connections came out pretty quickly after this and

17:47

are a few high profile Raya he said we

17:49

talked to says he's frames he says it's was

17:51

is he didn't plead. Guilty. Eventually we

17:53

can get was by the store as he gets

17:55

a restaurant years later after winning and winning a

17:57

senate seat right back. So he runs for senate

17:59

in. Later elections he believes.

18:02

Probably. To say coming out of the

18:04

shadows this is becoming legit. You right in the

18:06

book about the band. it's becoming legal. In.

18:08

This election to talk. Talk about that one's

18:10

yeah yeah Bundy Legal which is legal bandits

18:12

of as a name of a song when

18:15

a martyr these popular compass on some back

18:17

in the day and some these guys have

18:19

power and and then they're making it a

18:21

reality. This again gets into this this concept

18:23

of made seat and how this intervention plays

18:25

out because. It's not

18:27

just public services that have been outsourced

18:30

through a programs it it's it's elections

18:32

themselves and gave that. Foreign donors are

18:34

funding the electoral apparatus, they're providing training

18:36

to the electoral council and the poem

18:38

Deaths. they're writing the rules of the

18:40

game, made the electoral law. The law

18:43

and political parties are drafted with the

18:45

consultation of foreign experts, and then ultimately

18:47

it's a foreign entity that deems it

18:49

legitimate or not. And

18:51

so there are a few changes in the

18:53

run up to this election. In one your

18:56

money at twenty signatures to create a political

18:58

party. See had this massive proliferation of parties

19:00

hundreds right participating this is he gets access

19:02

to resources, access to voting booths can be

19:05

manipulated, but they also removed a criminal check

19:07

in the electoral law and so even people

19:09

who were at your had criminal backgrounds had

19:11

been arrested were perfectly allowed to run in

19:13

this electoral process. And.

19:16

D for we've certainly one of those at.

19:18

And so he participates. And you know,

19:20

there's no doubt that he has a certain

19:22

base, right? right? Me, It weakens. Be honest

19:25

about that. And he he. He won the

19:27

election air and was set to take

19:29

office in January two thousand and seventeen. Now

19:32

it's interesting because he would. We see

19:34

these about the and bargains that are

19:37

made all the time in Haiti for

19:39

the initial brokers. So that electoral process

19:41

it was so fraudulent, so problematic that

19:43

they ended up having to throw out

19:45

the presidential results all together and real

19:47

the election. But all of the deputies

19:50

and senators elected in that process. While.

19:52

They agreed to swear them all and off at night

19:54

because he needed some. Been showing me that oceans you

19:56

need somebody to work with. So with the U N

19:59

in the Us they. Warhammer legislature full of

20:01

by day like all right I mean

20:03

they had just dominated out electoral process

20:06

marred by violence and fraud. And who

20:08

wins in that environment is and as

20:10

you point out to the Haitian people,

20:13

had our night idiots. They had recognized

20:15

that these elections were fraudulent and so

20:17

participation in them had dwindled didn't quite

20:20

low. Which. Is makes it even easier

20:22

to go ahead and just exactly that low

20:24

electro by so this electoral process at about

20:26

twenty percent participation rate so it doesn't like

20:28

american levels of so let's. See

20:31

a space and it's addictions. Might be even lower

20:33

and have than here but an author's is ready

20:35

me in that environment. It takes very little to

20:37

actually secure political office. May them you're talking about

20:39

not that many votes that you need to get

20:42

the spot that you're looking for. Rights

20:44

I So he then winds up.

20:47

Blocked. Up has keep. We'd go

20:49

from center. Of Federal.

20:51

Prison inmate? Yes, Oh certainly this is just

20:53

a few weeks before he was said to

20:55

be sworn in maybe maybe even less days

20:57

and he went into to the capital of

20:59

Port Au Prince said he had largely stayed

21:01

in his am you know, his base of

21:04

support during the campaign and electoral process, but

21:06

he shows up in the capital and on

21:08

the radio and somebody's gotta tip somewhere that

21:10

he was there and that's and that's I

21:12

found. They showed up and they arrested him

21:14

and he owes a whole sort of saga

21:16

of of Dea agents driving them around Port

21:18

Au Prince try to avoid at you know,

21:21

Political. Actors and eighty who are lobbying to

21:23

to have him released. But of course he's He's

21:25

quickly sent off to the U S. and extradition

21:27

is is sort of a difficult word to use

21:30

in this context because there's no real legal, probably

21:32

rendition. The aim, is it like a more accurate

21:34

term. Totally fair at him. in. there's a reason

21:36

why the U Srs a lot of high profile

21:38

people in Haiti and brings in there for drug

21:41

trafficking because you don't actually need to go through

21:43

an extradition process seeker on the van, put him

21:45

on a plane, and in Miami you gotta get

21:47

out of in the Us custody. So that is

21:49

what they did with the and yeah, I think

21:52

you can criticize that. d Certainly did him

21:54

plenty of say some politicians did. Whatever.

21:56

Their motivations may be us but fast forward six

21:58

plus years. Eggs the just got out of prison

22:00

either. He was released and nice cheek pled guilty

22:02

to play drugs were guilty to a lesser charge.

22:05

He was going to get convicted no matter what

22:07

he was saying. He was. Set

22:09

up basically but yeah yeah he blames

22:11

that you know ineffective counsel and then

22:13

appealed this multiple times and fight it

22:16

out. He got a nine year sentence.

22:18

He he pled guilty to money laundering

22:20

of related to drug trafficking, this money

22:23

laundering for drug proceeds and coordinating with

22:25

the Colombian cartels and and corrupt police

22:27

officers to facilitate the entry of drugs

22:29

stadium and eventually onto the United States

22:32

be served just over six years and

22:34

then was released this last fall when

22:36

he was then held in their eyes

22:39

detention. Center for about two months

22:41

small the Haitian government and

22:43

Us governments negotiated, discuss, debated,

22:45

figured out what. The. Hell

22:47

they were gonna do with this guy. And they

22:49

ended up deporting a back to Haiti with a

22:52

plane load of other people from Ice detention centers

22:54

in November of Twenty Twenty Three. What?

22:57

I hear from patient sources like after

22:59

he came back is. Even

23:01

more eloquent in his like. Revolutionary.

23:04

Speechifying spent a lot time in

23:06

prison. Can. Reading. A

23:09

revolutionary. Tracked since he was

23:11

always kind of had. like you said,

23:13

he is talking about Fidel. He talked

23:15

about say but he also talked about

23:17

Pinochet. but. Now he seems

23:20

crisper. In. His kind of rep

23:22

revolutionary pr and seems. Wildly.

23:24

Popular. Correct. Me if I'm wrong, but

23:26

like he does seem like a powerful figure it at

23:29

this moment now. What? A wild turn of

23:31

events it is. certainly. Well, I think you note

23:33

for me personally, I think a lot of folks

23:35

a me that they don't necessarily believe the red,

23:37

right? right? of course. But. I

23:39

did. You do have to understand that. He is

23:42

saying things that appeal to a lot of people's

23:44

rights. and what is he saying? What's his message

23:46

Generally a perfect example as is his response To

23:48

add this this new Presidential Council I which is

23:50

negotiate with his external actors with Caricom with United

23:52

States and he says the time of the foreign

23:55

Powers picking our leaders it his oath right as

23:57

up the Haitians determine our future. That's something that's

23:59

going to. They are the people in a the

24:01

Rights you know it. He said one thing that

24:03

I think is not a particularly popular opinion in

24:05

Haiti and systemically this is at Amnesty For for

24:08

these armed groups, right Bus. But there's an important

24:10

thing to flesh out here because what he actually

24:12

he went on to explain what he meant by

24:14

that I am and he said. We.

24:17

Need to understand the networks that financed these armed

24:19

groups who arm them right? One of the political

24:21

connections, one of the taxes with the private sector

24:23

with the business elite because we know that these

24:25

connections exists is if we ever want to do

24:27

something to stop this, we the understand the system

24:30

that we've created an online dance at. A guy

24:32

that I don't think he's the one to do

24:34

that, he wants to do that. But.

24:36

He's not wrong by it's and he's the

24:38

one making that case and and I think

24:40

that's a really dangerous thing. I think it

24:42

is a risk to underestimate. His

24:45

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24:47

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27:19

Them and so when he was running

27:21

for senate he campaigned with job Anomalies

27:23

who's the prime minister who are president

27:26

was assassinated. Back. And Twenty twenty

27:28

one who was himself. It had kind

27:30

of they would you call an alliance

27:32

with the Jeannine, the gangs and portraits

27:35

or something. I've been understanding the song

27:37

about Moyes a little bit of his

27:39

and his politics. Yeah, so juvenile. Maurice

27:41

was the hand picked successor to Martelly.

27:43

right and martyr. We made this plan

27:45

pretty clear from the get go is

27:48

he's my choice. He's gonna come into

27:50

power, He serves his five year term

27:52

and then I'm coming back. You can't

27:54

do consecutive terms and a like would

27:56

like Potent did. You need to break it up

27:58

a little address. So he was. Guy to break

28:00

it up and he was a student. Strategic

28:03

choice. He was from outside of Port Au

28:05

Prince. My, this is a country and Asian

28:07

right where you have the Republic of Port

28:09

Au Prince and and everything else and the

28:11

government is basically obscene and everyone's lives outside

28:14

a quarter Brinson, even large parts of Point

28:16

Prince is a bigger dynamic. We can talk

28:18

about butts. He was a a rural entrepreneur

28:20

and agricultural guy who had as banana plantation

28:22

his nickname in the campaign was the banana

28:24

Mans and eruptive. done a lot of work

28:27

and as I was up I went up

28:29

to the banana plantation. I mean it was at.

28:32

It was a way to blonde

28:34

or state money to your preferred

28:36

candidate. It was never a as

28:39

successful banana exporting some operation at

28:41

all but it did succeed and

28:43

in giving him of a mantra

28:45

name recognition and again this was

28:48

a. Deeply. Flawed electoral process

28:50

with very low participation. but he

28:52

did eventually emerge victorious from that

28:54

process and take office in two

28:56

thousand and seventeen. But.

29:00

He faced immediate hurdles in office, right? and

29:02

I think again, we we've is: they'll lose

29:04

at an election. Why doesn't this government have

29:06

the mandate? Why don't they have legitimacy? While

29:09

he got five hundred thousand votes in a

29:11

country of twelve million people, it it didn't

29:13

Doesn't actually mean that much to most people.

29:15

So it's about what you do, read it,

29:17

and how you can build a coalition once

29:20

in power to actually govern and deliver for

29:22

the population rates. And there's a dynamic met

29:24

played out in Haiti for a very long

29:26

time, where. Political

29:29

leaders, In. Eighty or more

29:31

responses and gave their legitimacy from.

29:34

External factors generally the United States. So if you

29:36

have the support of the U. It

29:39

sort of gives you carte blanche to

29:41

not bother building that domestic base or

29:43

that political coalition in country because you

29:45

perceive that you can just go on

29:47

If you have us support. Nothing can

29:49

stop you. Rights. And I

29:51

think in the end. That. Was ultimately.

29:54

Moyes. His undoing was that he failed

29:56

to build any sort of coalition are

29:58

broad coalition to actually govern Haiti and

30:01

at each moment of crisis when the

30:03

terms of parliament expired and he was

30:05

ruling by decree when people said his

30:07

mandate expired and he should leave office

30:09

instead of. Broadening,

30:13

Your support. Instead of reaching a deal

30:15

with opponents, the U S came and

30:17

said no, We still recognize him up,

30:19

know you have another year in your

30:21

terms and that empowered him to push

30:23

forward and his agenda. That.

30:26

Faced stronger and stronger and stronger

30:28

rejection. And. Ultimately ended in

30:30

his assassination in July of Two Thousand Twenty One.

30:32

You. See the same dynamic has again

30:35

Israel at any time in Israel

30:37

would encounter and difficulties negotiating with

30:39

it's Palestinian interlocutors over the last

30:41

decades. Or they would say

30:43

well it's us as or back anyway. We.

30:45

Have zero incentive. To. Compromise One

30:48

inch. Israeli political parties that urged compromise

30:50

with an undermined because the High Right

30:52

really will compromise why Uncle Sam's got

30:54

Us to the Hill. So.

30:57

There was talk about barbecue. Let.

30:59

Me tell his like. I don't know if it's

31:01

a fantasy or not, but it's this the story

31:04

that kind of barbecues supporters tell of him and

31:06

it's like. The if it

31:08

were true, it would be the most

31:10

incredible like Marvel backstory. You. Could

31:12

ever possibly imagine. So imagine you've you've

31:15

got a kid. his mom. Or.

31:17

Your cells barbecue on the side The

31:20

street he becomes known as as Jimmy

31:22

Barbecue he becomes a police officer. Widely

31:24

regarded as one of the best police

31:26

officers in Port Au Prince serves more

31:29

than more than ten years and then

31:31

his his enemies is corrupt enemies on

31:33

the inside. Falsely. Accuse

31:35

him. Of. Involvement in.

31:38

A. Mascot or several massacres and

31:40

he's eventually as a result forced

31:42

out of the. Police. Departments.

31:44

That kind of origin story

31:47

turns him into this Robin

31:49

Hood gangster superhero. who's gonna.

31:51

Take. Vengeance out. In. Areas that

31:54

he controls. Is. A A Just

31:56

Robin Hood. And has become the

31:58

spokesperson for this. This gang of. Well.

32:00

It's network of nine gangs or who are

32:02

now in a in a revolutionary effort. Got.

32:05

To seize power in in Haiti.

32:07

For the Haitian people, that's the

32:09

kind of. Marble. Version. Of.

32:11

Barbecue Stories to tell tell us

32:13

who is who who is barbecue.

32:16

The good story right? It's a

32:18

it's a fascinating story I'd share

32:20

your you know if it was

32:22

real it would be great, an

32:24

incredible and yet it's not. As

32:27

the series is is somebody who at

32:29

you know I've I've. Been. Familiar

32:31

with are You Investing they looked into

32:33

for a long time. So yes you

32:36

know as a I think that is

32:38

probably how he got his nickname right.

32:40

he was indeed a police officer and

32:42

Port Au Prince, but there's he wasn't

32:44

he accused of being involved in May

32:47

of. This is an interesting little bit

32:49

because I think going into the the

32:51

origins of of his separation from the

32:53

police forces is illustrated so a lot

32:55

of attention has been focused on on

32:58

this a massacre in Lhasa lean whereas

33:00

to politically connected armed groups. Clashing

33:02

over turpin and rather than than. Up

33:05

to seventy civilians dead okay and and

33:07

barbecue Series Yeah has been publicly alleged

33:09

to have been involved in it. But

33:12

the. Story of Susie begins before that

33:14

rights and it begins on was exactly a

33:16

year before that at a school in the

33:18

Ground Ravine neighborhood for the Prince which is

33:21

incredibly impoverished part of of the city and

33:23

there was a police shooting at that school

33:25

where we heard your i was in Haiti

33:27

at the time and the reports you know

33:30

a bunch people dead at the school shooting.

33:32

Nobody really knew what was happening and just

33:34

a few days after it I went down

33:36

to the school with their a reporter from

33:39

Aljazeera who had the the car and the

33:41

logistics actually get me there and. we

33:43

started to because the people there right that

33:45

there was a ceremony happening at school family

33:47

members and community members who had lost people

33:49

and and in this in in the crime

33:52

and the matter and whatever happened we're trying

33:54

for that's the courtyard littered with bullets else

33:56

big bullet shelves rate blood still on the

33:58

ground staining staining the core And

34:01

people told the story of what happened,

34:03

right? Which was there was a police

34:05

operation, an anti-gang operation in the neighborhood.

34:09

And police believed that there were people

34:12

they were after hiding on the school grounds. And

34:14

this school is sort of an oasis in the

34:16

middle of a concrete jungle. It's got big trees

34:18

in a place where there are very few trees.

34:20

It's got a surrounding wall. It was a refuge.

34:24

But the police come into the school. They

34:26

say, where are these guys? And

34:29

say, nobody's here. Nobody's here. But then the

34:31

director of the school hears from

34:33

one of his staff that actually there's a few guys hiding

34:36

in this shed on the property. And

34:39

they tell the police that. The

34:41

police open the shed doors and the guys inside shoot

34:44

and kill two police officers. And

34:47

the story that was told from the dozens of

34:49

people we talked to on the ground that day

34:51

was after that, the police

34:53

turned and took vengeance on

34:55

the school director, on the teachers of the school,

34:57

and on people who were present there. And

35:00

beat them in the courtyard, shot

35:02

them, and killed nine people that day.

35:05

And at the time when I'm doing all of this, I didn't know

35:07

who Charisse was. What year is this? This

35:09

is 2017, November 2017. He's

35:12

still a cop then? Yeah, he was a member

35:14

of the police force then. What was interesting to me at the

35:16

time was I was interested in the role

35:18

of the United Nations police. We're talking about sending a thousand. At

35:20

that time in 2017, there were more than

35:22

a thousand foreign police officers stationed in Haiti. And

35:24

they were running help. They

35:27

were backing up this anti-gang operation. And so

35:29

at the time of this shooting taking place

35:31

at the school, UN

35:33

police officers were guarding the perimeter of the school.

35:37

I didn't even know who the Haitian police officers

35:39

were. But there was an

35:41

investigation launched. And the Haitian inspector general

35:43

called those officers who were present

35:45

in the school that day to give

35:47

their story. And instead of showing

35:50

up to participate in that process, Charisse blocked

35:52

himself in his neighborhood and got in the

35:54

shootout with the police. And

35:56

that was his separation from the force. He

35:58

stayed on the payroll. and continued to receive

36:01

money from the police for well over a year

36:03

until after the La Saline massacre.

36:06

But he was divorced from the police then, and that's really

36:09

what caused this. And so there's

36:12

a lot of focus on these other things, but I think

36:14

it's important to back up and tell that full story because

36:17

this wasn't some psy-op. I mean, this wasn't

36:21

an effort to tarnish Charisse at

36:24

the time. Nobody even knew who he was. I mean,

36:26

this was just a massacre at a school,

36:28

and it seemed like justice was important. So how

36:31

did he become the dominant gang leader? First, we

36:33

have to push back even on that narrative. He's

36:35

the most outspoken. He is

36:37

the spokesperson for this large alliance of

36:39

armed groups in the capital that we've

36:41

seen sort of starting to work together

36:44

over the last couple of weeks. They

36:46

call themselves what, the revolutionary armed something,

36:48

something? The new moniker for the big,

36:50

the broader group is Vivanson, live together,

36:52

which is ironic. But

36:55

he is the most outspoken. He

36:57

might have the most political ambition of

37:00

any of these armed group leaders, but he's certainly not

37:02

the most powerful. And what's really

37:04

changed here, this is an interesting dynamic. Charisse

37:06

presented himself over recent years.

37:08

He adopted this sort of revolutionary rhetoric. That was

37:11

not always the case, that came later once he

37:13

was isolated from his

37:15

prior world. He

37:18

framed himself as, I'm the one who's fighting

37:20

the bad guys. I'm protecting my neighborhood, but

37:22

I'm opposed to the

37:24

kidnapping, to the rapes, to these

37:27

other groups. I'm protecting my territory

37:29

and my people from their attacks.

37:31

That was his narrative. But

37:35

now over the last two weeks, this new alliance

37:37

that Vivanson lived together is his direct alliance with

37:39

those armed groups that he at least claimed to

37:41

be fighting over the last number of years. And

37:44

that's where the power is coming from,

37:47

the muscle, the resources. Because the

37:49

actual most powerful armed group in Haiti

37:51

is under the control of a guy,

37:53

Izzo, who is a want

37:56

to be rap artist who puts everything he

37:58

does on TikTok. streamed live

38:00

to everybody and he got a YouTube

38:02

Creators Award last year because of all

38:04

the followers he has on YouTube.

38:06

And they then suspended his account shortly thereafter. So they're

38:09

like, oh, wait a minute. He's doing it through murder.

38:11

When there was an attack on the national penitentiary

38:13

a few weeks ago, which was sort of one

38:15

of the early events in the last two weeks

38:17

of chaotic news coming out of Haiti, Iza

38:20

was flying a drone over it and the footage from

38:22

the drone was being broadcast on TikTok. Okay. None

38:25

of this was a surprise. You could see it happening

38:27

on social media in real time from these guys. Okay.

38:30

So I just want to say that because he's getting a lot

38:32

of attention right now, Shrizea. And understandable,

38:34

he's the one talking, but he's not the

38:36

only one fighting right now. He's not the

38:38

only one controlling armed groups and he's certainly not the one

38:41

with the most actual firepower.

38:44

So Kenya is now

38:47

bucking the United States actually a little bit. Kenya

38:49

in the last couple of days has

38:51

said the resignation of Ariel Henri, who

38:53

replaced Moise, means that they

38:56

want a new government in place that will

38:58

invite them in. The US at their briefing

39:00

this week said, no, it's good. Henri's team

39:02

signed it. It's still legal. It

39:04

doesn't matter what. And they're also saying the

39:07

condition for joining this transitional

39:09

government is that you have

39:11

to invite in this foreign

39:13

force. So Kenya, don't worry, you're still invited

39:15

and the US is picking up the tab.

39:18

They're balking at it because it's going

39:20

to be a debacle for them. They can see that happening.

39:23

What would happen if nobody sends in

39:25

troops? How does this get sorted out? Is

39:27

there a world where Guy Philippe

39:29

and the G9 just actually take

39:31

power? What other domestic power

39:34

is there in Haiti that

39:37

isn't just built in kind of hotel

39:39

rooms in Texas or Jamaica? Yeah,

39:42

I think there's a few dynamics to try

39:44

and provide a little context to, right?

39:46

Part of what this has been about and

39:48

the proliferation of armed groups and the strengthening of armed groups

39:51

in Haiti is about control. So they

39:53

really took off in 2018,

39:55

really gained power there. It was a

39:57

pretty direct response to a nationwide

39:59

anti-corruption. movement. That was hundreds

40:01

of thousands of people in the street. That was

40:03

the threat. And that's when you started

40:06

seeing massacres. That's when you started seeing fights for

40:08

territory. That's when you started seeing higher power weaponry

40:10

getting into the hands of these armed groups, more

40:12

money flowing in. There are

40:14

connections to bigger interests, private sector interests,

40:16

elite interests, political interests, right? There's

40:19

sort of unsaid and unspoken about in

40:21

Haiti are the oligarchs, these families. And

40:23

we know the names and we

40:25

probably don't say them enough and we probably don't

40:28

say them specifically enough which probably something to do

40:30

with their litigious nature. I

40:32

noticed there's some of those names in your book.

40:35

Yeah, there's a couple. We'll see what I hear

40:37

back. But we need

40:39

to understand these context that this was

40:41

created for control. But

40:43

the reality is you can

40:46

say, oh, well, let the Haitian people decide. The

40:48

Haitian people are locked down right now in the

40:50

capital. People can't organize. People can't

40:52

take to the streets to express themselves. So

40:54

what we're seeing, what we're hearing is tightly

40:56

controlled. And so it's hard to judge where

40:58

this real support lies. What is the average

41:01

person? I can still tell you

41:03

what I hear talking to my friends in Haiti. Everyone can

41:05

tell you there's obviously like any

41:07

place a diverse array of opinions across Haitian

41:09

society about all of these issues, right? One

41:12

thing we understand is there is capacity. It's not

41:14

everybody in Haiti is crooked or

41:17

unable to do this. There

41:19

are highly trained and highly professional people

41:21

in Haiti who want to do something

41:23

about the security situation. I

41:26

think there needed

41:28

to be a change in

41:30

leadership and governance in Haiti

41:32

to facilitate that process, to

41:34

give some encouragement, some morale back

41:36

to the police who've been saying for weeks and

41:39

months and years that the leadership of the police

41:41

is not supporting us. Our government is not supporting

41:43

us. Police officers aren't even getting

41:45

paid their salary right now. And we're surprised

41:47

that they're ceding certain ground or not risking

41:50

their life on a daily basis. So we're

41:52

talking about spending $600 million

41:54

on a one year mission

41:57

of a thousand Kenyans and maybe a couple hundred

41:59

from other. Three

42:01

times the Haitian Police's annual budget. So

42:04

I think it's not just what exists there now,

42:06

but also if we're going to do something to

42:08

help. What kind of

42:10

help or we actually provide else? Are we

42:13

importing security or are we going to try

42:15

and. Help. Haiti provide

42:17

a sustainable. Password for themselves and

42:19

up. About a year ago you had the.

42:22

Block. Away. Movement. Take

42:24

off with was being cut the grass

42:27

got it's not it's yeah it's of

42:29

which seem to be a pretty organics.

42:32

Like. Anti gang. I

42:34

an anti corruption movement from regular

42:36

people. Which. Turned. Where.

42:39

I didn't turn violent. it basically began violent

42:41

New based on the name is no matter

42:43

this injustice, read him in. this was a

42:45

population and and again I yeah I mentioned

42:48

this earlier but at the root of so

42:50

much about we see is in Haiti. It

42:52

is the absence of the state and people's

42:54

lives by the state, a broken social contract,

42:56

a state that is not accountable to are

42:58

representative of the vast majority of the Haitian

43:01

people. You survive, you take things in your

43:03

own hands, you do whatever you can and

43:05

and the abandonment of these communities. You totally

43:07

understand this movement of vigilante. Just as edited,

43:10

have any success and taken back territory

43:12

one hundred percent. It was a significant

43:14

change in the dynamics for shirts and

43:16

that was also police involvement to read

43:18

him in three hour that it was

43:20

teamed up with police. Are you in

43:22

a populist way? Like there were some

43:24

police officers What's his name? Sniper is

43:26

famous Guy since populace figure like you

43:28

saw these police kind of liked almost

43:30

disobeying orders from the very top and

43:33

joining in with the vigilantes. And.

43:35

Like to see the murdering and Anglican is

43:37

this is. this is a lesson not just

43:39

maybe you. Community policing is more effective enemy

43:41

you need ties and in the community to

43:43

if you actually want to give that community

43:45

security and we've seen that happen the block

43:48

a layer of sort of a movement beard

43:50

out a little bit for adding for various

43:52

reasons bites then still happening and hey to

43:54

a certain extent neighborhoods are putting up barricades

43:56

and working with the police officers who either

43:58

live in there in. Community or have

44:00

a base somewhere near they're They're not gonna

44:03

sit back and tape Israeli this is. this

44:05

is the real lesson of Asian history of

44:07

his and resistance is real and they are

44:09

gonna fight. You know for their own future

44:11

and that process is playing out and I

44:14

wanna finish by plane. This clip from the

44:16

State Department briefing. Ah where the

44:18

I was at this week in. This is an

44:20

exchange between me and. Us. State

44:22

Department spokesperson Matthew Miller out what

44:24

it is. Just get your. Have.

44:27

General reaction to it the multi national security

44:29

support miss and will be there at the

44:31

invitation of the his and government is a

44:33

key free represent foreign their deployment. that's what's

44:36

the of as is made that got me

44:38

to make the but what it's worth like

44:40

the aplomb city for the Kenyan government said

44:42

in their statement if they have to have

44:44

a government that has invited them with which

44:47

they can collaborate is why they're looking for

44:49

the appointment of this presidential transition counts on

44:51

ultimately a new prime ministers and ultimately a

44:53

new government But when it comes to what

44:56

has happened in Jamaica. Again, this was

44:58

a collaboration of Caricom leaders ah,

45:00

hasten civil society, the states Canada,

45:02

France, Mexico, Brazil, all of whom

45:04

have an interest in seen stability

45:06

and all of whom have the

45:08

same goal which is to address

45:10

the immediate security situation on the

45:12

grounds for store com, restore peace,

45:14

restore law and order for Hasten,

45:16

Ah for for hastens and then

45:18

establish the conditions in which free

45:20

and fair elections can take place.

45:22

That is our only gods What

45:24

we've been trying to see from.

45:27

The beginning forward to continued to try to the

45:29

teeth. Are there any Haitians? That. The

45:31

Us would. Not allow the them

45:33

to power through that process. Did not a

45:35

question of the United States allow anyone to

45:37

come to power? Ultimately, as I said that

45:39

his eighth as a question for the Haitian

45:41

people. What? Jumped out

45:43

at you. From. That from this. They.

45:46

Department perspective to things and one right.

45:48

I mean the idea that it it

45:50

will be up to a new Haitian

45:52

government to determine the security assistance they

45:54

need from from external powers at random

45:56

with the talking about a condition of

45:58

joining the new government. Was accepting.

46:01

A deal that the. Government.

46:03

The now everyone sort of acknowledges was an illegitimate

46:05

about do with a A that was doing nothing

46:07

good. negotiate with Kenya at the urging of the

46:09

Us that the U S plans on funding rates

46:12

of that was a condition for joining the government.

46:14

So to present that as. A

46:17

Haitian lead processes is obviously

46:19

ludicrous, and he resisted. The.

46:21

Concept of this is a hasten

46:23

lead solution as I do want

46:25

it you say one thing which

46:27

is that stations have been pushing

46:30

for a political dialogue for political

46:32

negotiations with Henri to brought in

46:34

governance to check his power to

46:36

put some structures in place. Since.

46:39

The day he took office. So case

46:41

and those efforts have been rebuffed over

46:43

and over and over again. and that

46:46

same dynamic we saw with us support

46:48

giving a leader that de facto sort

46:50

of authority to just. Push. Forward

46:52

no matter, no matter cause of your scripts. That

46:54

was played out over the last two years and

46:56

situation got worse and worse. The U S stayed

46:59

by Henri undermined these negotiations and now presenter like

47:01

well We've been asking for for a year for

47:03

a broad based governance and eighty and rhetorically sure

47:05

they've They've given some lip service to that with

47:07

the Riyadh as they undermine that at every step

47:10

of the way rights. So to now come out

47:12

and say oh is the his in the process?

47:14

Well if you back at six months ago a

47:16

year ago, there may have been an opportunity for

47:18

Asians to come around a table right to do

47:21

this in a more open. Democratic way to

47:23

speak to the he's in population as this

47:25

is going on but now it's happening with.

47:28

A. Literal and figurative gone to everyone's

47:30

head. happening in Kingston, Jamaica where the

47:32

Haitian participants can even fly there cause

47:34

the airport's closed, are participating on zoom

47:37

crates and the urgency of making an

47:39

agreement and twenty four hours because you've

47:41

got series a an armed groups and

47:44

give Felipe. The. Are demanding

47:46

power right? And and so. That

47:49

puts days into are trying to come

47:51

up as was in an absurdly difficult

47:53

bind. rights to the optics of this

47:55

whole thing of of sort of. Submitting

47:58

your proposal for governance. You

48:00

are. Bored. Of foreign leaders who are going to

48:02

come up with the appropriate That I mean is. Ugly

48:05

right? and I think you've even heard

48:07

of from a few people who are

48:09

participated in this process was not appropriate,

48:11

but the broader framework of trying to

48:13

balance power rate of getting a bunch

48:16

of people on a presidential council to

48:18

try negotiate. This is in broad strokes

48:20

what has been negotiated and discussed. By.

48:23

Plenty of actors in Haiti over a period

48:25

of go a year after year stint. Start

48:27

by twenty four hours go out will Jake!

48:29

Thanks so much for joining me. Really appreciate

48:32

it as a you'd be her. Was

48:37

Jack Johnson. The Book is Aid

48:40

States Believe Panic, disaster, capitalism and

48:42

the battle to control and that

48:44

is Our show deconstructed his production

48:46

of The Intercept. This episode was

48:48

produced by Laura Flint. The show

48:50

was mixed by William Stance Legal

48:53

review by David Rayleigh, Sean Musgrave

48:55

and Elizabeth Sanchez. The Not a

48:57

Fireman transcribe this episode or theme

48:59

music was composed. My barbershop did

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like to support our work. Go

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