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0:49

I'm

0:55

Ryan Graham, and this is deconstructed, but

0:57

if you've been listening to it for more than the last

0:59

couple years, you know this wasn't originally my

1:01

podcast. Matt Title belongs

1:03

to Mehdi Hossehn who has since moved on to

1:05

his own cable show on MSNBC called

1:07

the Mehdi Hossehn Show. He's now out with

1:09

a new book called when every argument,

1:12

the art of the baiting, persuading, and

1:14

public speaking, which is in many ways the

1:16

book he was born to write. Mehdi,

1:18

welcome back to your show.

1:21

Thank you, Ryan, and it's funny you should say that

1:23

because a fair few people have said that and not

1:25

always in positive way.

1:27

Well, they're they're probably still a little bit sore from

1:29

the last time you out out argued them. I

1:31

tried. I tried. Yeah. So you and I

1:33

first met back when you were interviewing to join

1:36

Huffpost you

1:36

k.

1:37

Yes.

1:37

And it was the most quintessential area

1:39

on Huffington moment ever with

1:41

the interview that has happened in a chauffeur

1:44

car. On the way to the airport with a random

1:46

extra dude along for the ride, which in

1:48

this case was

1:49

me, did you have any warning that that's how

1:51

this interview was gonna go down? Absolutely

1:53

none. And I'm not someone I've been blessed

1:56

with the fact that I've not had to do traditional

1:58

job interviews from jobs I've had over the years, the

2:00

media, as you know, Ryan is a weird place. You know,

2:02

the way we get jobs, we sometimes fall into them.

2:04

It's -- Right. -- because everybody knows you already because

2:06

Or or or it's word-of-mouth. Right. It's,

2:08

you know, a connection. It's a coffee one. The formal

2:11

job interviews don't really happen in our

2:13

line of work that often. And I remember

2:15

being I was living in the UK and I came to visit

2:18

DC for another reason. And while I was there,

2:20

the half post folks who were trying to hire me in the

2:22

UK said, hey, why don't you meet Ariana? She's in

2:24

DC that weekend do. So I said,

2:27

okay, hey, at this hotel. So I go to the

2:29

hotel that you were gonna be in a restaurant or a bar

2:31

in the lobby. Now apparently, she's giving a speech

2:33

at a conference in hotel, you're

2:36

there as the DC Bureau Chief of the House post

2:38

of I don't know what, Collector. Hold on.

2:40

Who knows? Absolutely. We we get into a

2:42

she comes out and says I don't have time to talk to you because

2:44

I have to flight to CAD. Why don't I'm not

2:46

gonna do the impression? Why don't you just jump

2:48

in the car with me and come with me to Reagan

2:50

Airport? I I haven't got nothing else to do.

2:52

I said, alright. And we sat in the back through the car.

2:55

You were in the front and she kind of she

2:57

interviewed me while on two phones

3:00

she was talking to me, you, the

3:02

driver, and texting and emailing

3:04

on two blackberries at the same time. This

3:06

is two thousand twelve, I wanna say,

3:09

It was a it and she told me that she would

3:11

hire

3:11

me, but I would go beyond left and right. Ryan,

3:13

and you and I are well known for being beyond left

3:15

and right. There you go. I I remember

3:18

us both praying that her flight

3:20

was not in Dallas. Or not or not

3:21

Dallas? Or are you just hoping, like, I hope this is And

3:23

you had a interview lined up for at the airport.

3:25

With some guy, some former carpool,

3:28

some personal

3:29

justice. I was like, wow, that's that's

3:31

a lot of conversations going on. She

3:33

Yeah. I mean, I've had some fun conversations every

3:35

year. I forgot about that one. It wasn't per se an

3:37

argument, so it doesn't make it into the book. I do tell

3:39

a lot of stories. About fun debates and conversations

3:42

and arguments I've had in this

3:43

book, but all of the ones I've had with

3:45

Ariana are member of, well, you're right. That was

3:47

right. That we were we were doing actual journalism. We

3:49

were meeting a source. Out at out at the airport.

3:51

You were. Before her flight. Now

3:53

that now that I remember that, I had my own

3:55

perfectly Ariana Huffington interview

3:58

in two thousand eight. It was scheduled to four seasons

4:00

in Washington, one of the nicest, you

4:02

know, most glamorous hotels in Washington show

4:04

up. And, randomly, Jose Antonio Vargas

4:07

is there. Okay. But at the time a Washington

4:09

Post reported,

4:09

luckily, I knew him. But it's just classic

4:12

that there's just gonna be a random other person.

4:14

Just

4:15

always not multitasking with their meetings.

4:17

But I, you know, I owe Ariana a lot because

4:20

without her, I wouldn't have got to the US.

4:22

Because ironically, I came to the US with Algeria,

4:24

but originally, Ariana I

4:26

had sent to Ariana, my wife's American.

4:28

I'm interested in covering the American election.

4:31

She says, done move. Mhmm. I'll

4:33

make it happen. And then when AlJazira English

4:36

found out, they said, well, wanting to just come to DC

4:38

and we'll give you a weekly show. We've got a new studio So

4:40

I ended up being in DC, but it all started

4:42

with the kind of conversation with her. And here

4:44

I

4:44

am, kind of eight years later, eight years ago,

4:46

this month, Ryan -- Yeah. -- step foot on the

4:48

US. So And at the time that you came to the Huffington

4:50

Post, you were already pretty well known in the

4:53

UK for your debating

4:54

style. So, like, when did you when

4:56

did you first realize that you were particularly

4:59

good at arguing? As I say in the book, I think

5:01

I realized around the dinner table with my

5:03

parents and my sister, I come from a very disputatious

5:06

household. The family likes

5:08

to argue perhaps argue too much. Many of our visitors

5:10

and guests might say, but it did

5:12

give me some skills in life as as annoying

5:14

as it made me. It did remind me of

5:17

the importance of being able to

5:19

argue your way out of situation, debate any

5:21

topic, see more than one side to

5:23

an issue. And I think that is something

5:25

I say in the introduction to the book that

5:27

I will always thank my dad for this

5:29

idea that you kind of take on

5:32

issues and you do it in an intellectually

5:34

honest Hasan. And I I tell the story in the

5:36

book, my dad was in the in

5:38

the late eighties when people were

5:41

burning copies of

5:43

satanic verses. Salman Rajdi's

5:45

novel, Muslims were burning in the streets of

5:47

Bradford and were horrified by

5:50

this book. My dad buys the book, reads

5:52

it and puts it on his bookshelf, off next to

5:54

the dining table. So anytime any guests

5:56

come over, they're like shocked. Why do you have this

5:58

book? Why does that? Well, you can't condemn it unless you've

6:00

read it. And this was the point, and

6:02

that was kind of instilled in me for a very early

6:04

age. You you know, read the other sides

6:06

newspapers and publications. If I'm on the

6:09

left, read the right. If you're on the right, read the

6:11

left, open your minds to all sorts

6:13

of arguments. And I and I realized early

6:15

on that I enjoyed doing that. I had a skill for

6:17

it and knack for it. I turned up at Oxford University

6:20

in nineteen ninety seven and it's

6:22

a perfect place to someone like me to be because

6:24

they have the Oxford Union debating society,

6:26

the most famous debating society on planet Earth,

6:28

and I kind of threw myself into debates

6:30

there and and loved it. And when I graduated from

6:32

university, I knew I had no skills in life

6:35

other than having a big mouth. So the

6:37

media is where ended up.

6:38

And I was hoping that the book

6:40

would kind of be an easy how to,

6:42

like, here's four easy steps to become just

6:44

like Mehdi Hasan, but I was kind of demoralized

6:47

by how much you talk about, how extensive

6:50

preparation is the key to everything.

6:52

And, like, just just show me where the club

6:54

is so I can beat somebody up. But, no, that's

6:56

not what it's gonna be. But which

6:58

means, I guess, that there's you can't eat

7:00

anybody else's lunch for free. Would be the

7:03

be the way to put

7:04

that. But I think I think well, I'd

7:06

say yes or no. So I'd say yes in the sense

7:08

that it has annoyed me over the years that people

7:10

think you can just wing this stuff. Mhmm. They

7:12

assume that what those of us

7:14

who do it are doing is winging it, which we're

7:16

not. And they assume that they can do

7:18

it by winging it and cutting corners, which they can't

7:20

and then they end making a fool of themselves. And I've

7:22

seen that over the years as a producer in television

7:25

as a as a host of a TV show and before that

7:27

I was a TV producer, you're booking guests,

7:29

you'd see people, you know, you've seen them, Ryan. People

7:31

on the TV crash and burn. They might be

7:33

great. They might be great intellectuals. You might be on this

7:35

guy's gonna be great. You put him on TV because they haven't

7:37

prepared. Their skills as a professor

7:40

or as a doctor or as an actor.

7:42

Whatever it is, when it comes to the medium of what

7:44

we work in, combative interview. It it

7:46

doesn't work. It falls

7:47

apart. So I think that that so I would say

7:49

yes, you

7:50

need to prepare. It's a major theme of this

7:52

book, and I devote the last third of the

7:54

book, the last kind of four of the last five

7:56

chapters to building your confidence,

7:59

staying calm, how to do research,

8:01

and how to actually prepare your delivery. That's

8:03

a kind of almost a third of the book at the end.

8:05

I start with the key principles, the rhetoric

8:07

debate, public speaking. I then do.

8:09

This is where I would say no. You can occasionally

8:11

wing parts of it. Is I do have a

8:13

section, a middle section of the book, is all

8:15

about the tricks of the train. What are the techniques you

8:17

can use to get yourself out of a hole? What are

8:20

the quick fixes you can use when

8:22

you're in trouble, when you're on, you

8:24

know, when you're being beaten up recurrently.

8:27

And I talk about how to deal with the Gish Gallipa,

8:29

the person who comes the Trump type person

8:31

who comes with bullshit to overwhelm

8:34

you with bullshit. How do you deal with that? I talk

8:36

about how do you structure your speech? How do you do quick

8:38

fix when it comes to confidence? How do you fake it?

8:40

You know, fake it to make it. All

8:43

of these things in the book, how do you use booby traps

8:45

to trip people up in an argument, a debate, an

8:47

interview very important skill that some

8:49

people think is unfair, but I don't. So

8:52

there's a there's a lot of practical stuff in the

8:54

book. I actually devote a chapter in the book

8:56

to add hominem arguments and

8:58

why I think they're totally justifiable and

9:00

legitimate and why you should actually use them because

9:02

we live in world that, oh, don't go ad harm. Ad

9:04

harm is a logical fallacy. Ad harm is rude. Ad

9:06

harm is badmo. Actually, there's a very

9:08

good argument for why you should actually be

9:11

questioning the

9:11

credibility, qualifications, expertise

9:14

of your opponent. And so when you

9:16

started this podcast, I remember you saying that you wanted

9:18

to do something deeper and more thoughtful

9:20

that you were tired of kind of being pigeonholed

9:22

only as the guy who was gonna own your opponent

9:24

crossfire style, and it made me realize

9:26

when I get your take on this, that that in some ways, and

9:29

and you alluded to this in the book too, that in in

9:31

some ways, being an innately gifted

9:33

speaker can be something of an intellectual

9:35

curse. And you you could think about it as similar

9:37

to how, like, inheriting a ton of money might be great,

9:40

but might also make you lazy. Be kind

9:42

of the same thing as how a superstar

9:44

athlete might need to train might train

9:46

a little bit less. They might practice a little bit less

9:48

because they're still going to be able to kind of

9:50

beat their opponents on the field and the intellectual

9:52

corollary would be something like if you're incredibly

9:55

gifted debater in some ways you have to think

9:57

a little bit less and interrogate your own belief

9:59

system less because you'll always be able to kind of convince

10:01

yourself and convince others that you're right,

10:03

even if you're not right. Then you talk in

10:05

the book about how debating should never

10:07

be a sub institute for learning or for actually

10:09

being right. And it but it's somebody who is,

10:11

like, without a doubt, like, the best debater

10:14

I've ever met and maybe the best one out there.

10:16

Like, how do you combat that tendency and

10:18

make sure your mind always kind of stays crisp?

10:20

First of

10:20

all, it's a very kind to be the checks in the mail. That's

10:23

absolutely cool. Second of all,

10:25

look, I talk about in the book about confirmation bias.

10:27

Right? We're all we're all guilty of that. We're

10:29

all susceptible to it. This idea of as you say, you

10:31

know, convince yourself that you're right and then find the arguments

10:34

to justify it. And, you know, if I didn't get

10:36

into this in the book, but, you know, go back to

10:38

ancient times and you have the sophists and this

10:40

argument, the way we get today, so frustrated, this argument

10:43

arguing for arguing sake, you're just trying to win an argument

10:45

without any substance. And some people have responded

10:47

on social media to the title of the book, win every

10:49

argument with a kind of snuck you. Well, why would

10:51

you wanna win every argument? Sometimes you should

10:53

lose an argument. Well, obviously, that it's a title.

10:55

I know that, and I've enjoyed losing some

10:57

arguments and learning something. And to come back

10:59

to Deconstructed, I think that was about

11:02

being known in the US as

11:04

an interrogator, as you know,

11:06

the Eric Prince Guy as the guy who's,

11:08

you know, debated at the Oxford Union. And

11:11

I'm a big fan of that that style of

11:13

debate. I do it. Obviously, I've written a book

11:15

about it. But also, yeah, nobody

11:17

wants to get pigeonholed in the world, and I

11:19

like to do a lot of different things on my cable

11:21

show. I do something different. I think if you look at my journalism

11:23

over the years, Ryan, somebody's known me for the

11:25

last decade. I've done a lot of different things,

11:27

you know. In the huff post, my journalism style was different.

11:30

AlJesir, it's been different. For Intercept,

11:32

it's been different. And for MSNBC, it's been different. Now,

11:34

underlying all that is one common theme with which

11:37

I do like to interrogate ideas. I don't

11:39

like to take things at face value. Now,

11:41

you can do that in different ways. You can do

11:43

that in a grand debating style

11:46

on stage of the Oxford Union in front of a live

11:48

audience where you're pick apart Eric Prince's

11:50

position on mercenaries. All

11:52

you can do that, as I did on deconstructed,

11:54

in long form interview with interesting thinkers,

11:58

as you and I have done over the years, trying

12:00

to understand an argument from all sides and going

12:02

really deep into the detail, which unfortunately

12:05

in our media industry, which is time poor,

12:07

gets lost. And that is something I miss.

12:09

I'm very open about this. I miss a lot of

12:12

that from intercept days, from aljazir

12:14

English Hasan that cable news has

12:16

a lot of pros, but one of the big cons is your

12:18

time poor. You're trying to jam a lot of stuff

12:20

into an hour with ad breaks. And,

12:22

you know, Some of us try and go longer. Rachel

12:25

Mato is known for her very long A box. Her

12:27

very long, long form explainers. I've

12:29

tried to do a lot of those. We've tried to do some

12:31

deep dives on my peacock streaming show

12:33

right now. We do big kind

12:35

of long essays at the top of the show, podcast

12:38

style almost to try and break down an issue,

12:40

whether it's the debt ceiling, whether it's you

12:42

know, Nikki Haley's career

12:45

arc and flip flops, whatever it is, we

12:47

we do that. But underlying is the same premise.

12:50

Which is, you know, just to go through some of the some

12:52

of the chapter headings in my book, focus

12:54

on feelings, not just facts, you know, appeal

12:56

to people's hearts, not just their Mehdi. Bring

12:58

your receipts, like one of the mottos of my

13:00

entire life in Korea, always have your evidence.

13:04

Be able to listen as well. People think speaking

13:06

is just about speaking studies also about listening.

13:08

All of those qualities, you

13:11

know, that ad hoc argument in the sense

13:13

of questioning the credibility of the person you're

13:15

speaking to, All of those skills,

13:18

the art of the zinger, which is very good, as you

13:20

know, for kind of viral moments, is all about the

13:22

kind of one all those things that are in the book,

13:24

as chapter headings, as chapters, are things

13:26

I've brought to my journalism wherever I am, whether

13:28

I was at Intercept, whether I was at Aldi's or

13:30

English, whether I'm at MSNBC. And

13:33

I'm the point writing this book, I have many reasons

13:35

right in this. But one of them is for

13:37

my colleagues, for fellow journalists and media industry.

13:40

I I, you know, I'm very critical of the media

13:42

on both sides of the Atlantic. As to where

13:44

we have fallen short. And I think

13:46

there are certain things we could improve, and one of those

13:48

is holding power to account in a much more better and

13:50

focused

13:51

way. Alright. So so for this episode,

13:53

I wanna go through some of your greatest hits

13:55

and and draw out some of the lessons that we

13:57

can take from them. And what I liked about your

13:59

book is that that's this is kind of how you structure.

14:01

Like, here's here's generally how you do something,

14:04

here's a tip, and then here's an example

14:06

of how I did it, and then you can and then it helps

14:08

helps it land. So first, you're

14:10

probably and you tell me if you agree with this. Your

14:12

your most viral debate ever has to be

14:15

that one at the Oxford Union where the debate was

14:17

about is

14:17

Islam. A peaceful religion. Is is

14:19

do you think that's do you think that's right? I

14:21

think so. I think in terms of actual pure

14:24

debate, I mean, there have been interview clips that have gone equally

14:26

viral, but that one had more than ten million

14:28

views and went crazy in the Muslim world

14:30

in particular. Like, I still get like free

14:32

cab rides and free dinners. From

14:34

kind of Arab and Baxdani friends I bump into

14:37

and people I or Arab Baxdani friends I make

14:39

because people say, you're like, guy from the if they don't

14:41

know my name, they're like, you're like, guy from the YouTube video,

14:44

So that's it's always been fun. That

14:46

was the one that went really global. A lot of Americans

14:48

got to know me before I moved to the US. From

14:51

this debate, and just for your listeners, it was twenty

14:53

thirteen, it was mate, it was ten years ago.

14:55

Mhmm. I can't believe it was ten years ago, and it

14:57

was a day after a terrorist attack in the UK.

15:00

Just ironically and tragically, which killed

15:02

British soldier. And the Oxford Union host

15:04

is debate. This house believes

15:06

Islam is religion of

15:07

peace, and I make and I'm the final speaker

15:09

for the propositions I'm making that case. Daniel

15:12

talked about my article in the New Statesman, which got

15:14

me a lot of flat where I talked about the

15:16

antisemitism that is prevalent in some parts

15:18

of the Muslim community, which indeed it is. Of

15:20

course, I didn't say in that piece that it was

15:22

caused by the religion of Islam. In fact,

15:25

Modern antisemitism in the Middle East was

15:27

imported from, finished the sentence,

15:30

Christian, Judeo Christian Europe, where

15:32

I believe some certain bad things

15:34

Hasan to the Jewish people. In fact, Tom Friedman,

15:36

Jewish American columnist in New York Times told me in

15:38

this very chamber last week that he believed Had

15:40

Muslims been running Europe in the nineteen forties,

15:43

six million extra Jews would still be alive

15:45

today. So I'm not gonna take lessons in antisemitism

15:48

someone who's here to defend the Judeo Christian values

15:50

of a continent that murdered six million Jews.

15:53

Moving swiftly on. Yes.

15:56

You're doing exactly what? Absolutely. Well, I'm about

15:58

to raise that point. No. No. No. I'm about to raise that point. You're

16:00

right. I agree with you. I

16:02

agree with you. I agree with you one hundred

16:04

and ten percent. That is my point. I

16:06

don't think Europe is evil or bad. I'm a very

16:08

proud European. I don't want to judge Europe

16:11

on the basis. But if we're gonna play this gutter

16:13

game where we pull out the bali

16:14

bombing, and we pull out examples of antisemitism

16:16

in the Islamic group. Then of course, I'm gonna come back and

16:18

say, well, hold on. And Can you give

16:20

us a little bit of that the backstory on that one?

16:23

Was this a kind of rip the speech up

16:25

moment?

16:26

That's it's it's a really good question because

16:28

I prepare the speech I say in the book, different

16:30

people prepare their speeches in different ways. You can

16:32

memorize it. That's the hardest way. Agent

16:35

grease style or David Cameron style

16:37

You can do cue cards, which is common

16:39

form, bullet points, just have your key bits.

16:41

Or you write out the whole thing, but you don't read from

16:43

it. You know it well enough that it's just there. And that's

16:45

my own personal preference. I tell people try

16:47

it out, try out all three. Everyone's different.

16:50

So I had written out an entire speech on the

16:52

train, on the way to Oxford. I was a journalist

16:55

at the huff post at the time. And I go to

16:57

the Oxford Union to do this debate knowing there's a

16:59

lot of pressure because there's been this terrorist attack that people

17:01

are surely we're gonna lose. No one's gonna say it'slamism is a really

17:03

good piece a day after two Islamist terrorists

17:05

have just murdered a British soldier in the in the in

17:07

broad daylight on a London street.

17:10

So I go there, but the opposition

17:12

speakers who all speak before me are so

17:14

bigoted, are so

17:16

ignorant that, yeah, I get

17:18

really Mehdi, and you see I get Mehdi, and I talk

17:20

about it in the book, where, you know, a lot, I tear up. I

17:22

do tear up. Not physically, but I do kind of

17:24

ignore a lot of my speech and I spend a

17:26

lot of time just rebutting them, mocking

17:29

them, taking their arguments apart. I

17:31

go over my time. You can hear the bell go

17:33

ding ding ding and I keep going. But it was

17:35

important because as I say in the book, you have to

17:37

bring some passion and authenticity to

17:40

your presentations. If you're doing a debate on Islam

17:42

and you're a Muslim and you're facing bigotry, like,

17:44

a bit of how day you serve goes a long Hasan

17:47

also, you know, I've had my receipts I

17:49

had my polling and my statistics and my

17:51

research and my reports and my studies

17:53

and I and deployed them all. But yeah, it was a

17:55

lot of I have to be able

17:57

to stand up to this thing. And we won that debate.

17:59

We we kind of I was shocked that we won that

18:01

debate, but we won by more than hundred votes.

18:03

And people should just go Google that one.

18:06

It's well worth watching in polls. I don't I don't wanna

18:08

play the whole thing here. Let's move I wanna move

18:10

to to a couple clips. Let's let's

18:12

start with and this is You talk about this

18:14

one in chapter eleven. Now, this is a

18:16

this is a Trump adviser And

18:18

this is an example of the the the thing that

18:20

you called the dish gallop or the thing that that is called the

18:23

dish

18:23

gallop. It's a guy named Steve Rogers. Jose, can

18:25

you can you play that first one? When he

18:27

says, we're the only country in the world where a person comes

18:29

in and has a baby, and that baby is essentially citizen

18:31

of the United

18:32

States. Is

18:32

that true or false? No. It's what?

18:34

It's a misstatement. That means it's a lie.

18:37

Right. Okay. Okay? He said there were riots

18:39

going on in California against illegal immigration

18:41

and so called sanctuary cities were there any

18:43

riots in California?

18:44

Oh, yesterday, a riot. A lot of civil servants We

18:46

have a riot. Keep telling me what

18:48

they were in California. There was there were street

18:51

scarbishes in Los

18:53

Angeles. Oh, yeah. That's a No. The telephone no.

18:55

Hold on. The spokesman for the California Police Chief

18:57

Association says there was no. There were no riots taking

18:59

place. As a result of a sanctuary city policy. There were

19:01

no riots. He just made it up. When he was asked to say

19:03

where they were, he said, go look for them. I can give

19:05

you many more. He said, during the campaign, that

19:08

there's six to seven steel facilities that are

19:10

gonna be opened up. There are no US steelers that

19:12

have announced any

19:13

facilities. Why did he say they've announced new facilities?

19:15

That's a lie, isn't it? No,

19:17

it isn't. Because there are there are a lot of companies

19:19

opening up. There are steel facilities that are going to

19:21

be opening up or I

19:21

didn't need the Sorry, Steven. That's not what

19:24

he said. I know you I I know it's

19:25

difficult for you. I know you want try and defend them. No.

19:27

It isn't difficult. Okay. Let me read the quote. Let

19:29

me read the quote to you. US steel just

19:31

announced that they're building six new steel

19:34

mills. That's a very specific claim. You

19:36

at Steel have not announced six new steel mills. They

19:38

have said they have not announced six new steel mills. There's

19:40

no evidence of six new steel

19:41

mills. He just made it up. And

19:43

he repeated it. He didn't just say once. Look,

19:47

I don't know of what context these

19:50

statements were made, but I could tell you this.

19:52

The president of the United States has

19:54

been very responsive to

19:56

the American people, and the American

19:59

people are doing well. Look, thank you for

20:01

looking at me. They're making me right to

20:03

lie.

20:03

And the president can be a There's no contradiction

20:05

between those two statements. Alright? I am

20:07

not gonna say the president of the United States is

20:09

a liar.

20:09

No. I know you're not, but I've just put to you a multiple lie

20:11

and not been able

20:12

to respond to any of them. Let me ask you this.

20:14

I thought I'd respond to them. What didn't happen

20:16

is you didn't hear what you

20:18

wanted to hear What

20:19

did

20:20

I want to hear? I wanted to hear that they're all no

20:22

steel.

20:22

No. I wanted to hear Mehdi, No.

20:25

Not well, let's go on.

20:28

Mehdi, what what you're so particularly good at is just

20:30

not letting people off the hook. How did

20:32

you how did you prep for that? Because

20:35

it it seemed it seems like a difficult

20:37

thing to to grapple with. Yeah. It was and

20:39

and it was interesting was this was post the twenty

20:41

eighteen midterms. This is two years, less than

20:43

two years into the presidency. People are still grappling

20:46

with, how do you cover this guy? And we we were all grappling

20:48

with. I was all jitter in English at the time. And you're thinking

20:50

if you get a Trump personal, you know what they're gonna

20:52

do. They're gonna BS, they're gonna they're

20:54

gonna ramble. They're gonna kind of flood the

20:56

zone with nonsense. What do you do in that

20:58

situation? And my team and I decided, we

21:00

did a theme. The theme of the interview that Trump's a liar

21:03

The washer to buzz had already documented at that point

21:05

more than ten thousand lies. And

21:08

we thought, what do we do? We pick a handful and

21:10

pick one we really wanna focus on the steel

21:12

facilities, you mentioned. A brazen line.

21:14

Like, there's no there's no kind of it's

21:16

a half truth. It's a

21:17

mistake. No. It just he just made it up. It

21:19

was zero and

21:20

Arnold's. The steel mills They don't exist.

21:22

The company says they don't exist. He plucked it

21:24

out of thin air. And yeah. So I talked

21:26

about in the book this tech tactic that Trump and his

21:28

acolytes do not just Trump, people would argue Vladimir

21:30

Putin, a lot of fascist use this

21:32

tactic, which is called the dish gallop,

21:35

and actually comes from the

21:38

from the creationist world, from the world of creation

21:40

is debating. lot of creationist Christians

21:43

love to debate evolutionary love

21:45

to debate evolutionary biologists. And there

21:47

was a one famous guy called Dwayne Gish. And what

21:49

he used to do is he would just trot out nonstop

21:52

one line after another of kind of pseudo

21:55

scientific seemingly legitimate sounding

21:57

things that you couldn't rebut, but no same

21:59

normal person could rebut all of it in the space of

22:01

five, ten, fifteen minutes. So it became known as

22:04

the dish gallop, overwhelming your

22:06

opponent burying them in a deluge

22:08

of distortions, deflection, distractions. Trump

22:11

does it so well and so do his minions. So

22:13

what we wanted to do and what I say in the book is a

22:15

three process for stopping that. And this is advice

22:17

I would give to listeners and involved in debates,

22:19

people who are just arguing with someone in a in

22:21

a bar or a power at the Thanksgiving table or

22:23

interviewing a Trump spokesperson. You

22:25

gotta do a three step process. You gotta,

22:28

first of all, you gotta pick your battle.

22:30

You can't rebut every lie. It's just not possible.

22:32

They want to distract you with sheer quantity.

22:35

You gotta pick one or two things you wanna focus

22:37

on. Number two, you gotta

22:39

not budge. Once you've picked on it, don't budge.

22:41

And number three, call it out. And I do that in

22:43

that Steve Rodgers interview. We came, we prepared,

22:46

we got our receipts, we had our facts, we had

22:48

our quote, And then when he does, what

22:50

he what you just heard him do, I

22:52

picked my battle. He said, look, steel. I'm not you

22:54

wanna talk about other things. You're talking about manifest notes.

22:56

Steel. What about the steel facilities? Don't

22:58

let it go. Don't budge. Second

23:01

second point. Don't budge. You said, you got it.

23:03

You lot of interviewers, unfortunately, just

23:05

move on to the next question. Which is gold

23:07

for an interviewer who's trying to dodge answering

23:09

it. My position is no, I'd rather do

23:11

less is more. I'd rather do fewer questions, but stick

23:13

to the topic until I get an answer or non answer.

23:16

And then third of all, call it out. You had the you

23:18

had the bit at the end. He says, let's move on.

23:20

And I say after that, of course, you wanna move on

23:22

because you have no answers. You gotta call

23:24

out what's going on. You gotta identify the

23:27

tactic. To expose to

23:29

the audience, this is all b s. From

23:31

your adversary or or opponent

23:33

or interviewee. So, yeah, it we for

23:35

me, that chapter on the Gish Gallip is a crucial chapter

23:38

because we live in an age where there isn't much

23:40

good faith debate. Like, I'm a believer in good

23:42

faith argument, good faith debate. Brian,

23:45

you know very well. Today's Republican Party,

23:47

today's movement isn't interested in

23:49

good faith debate. A lot of it is just

23:51

pure BS, just trying

23:53

to grind you down. And I know we've had this debate,

23:55

journalists my display. Who do you platform? Who do you

23:57

not platform? I have a personal rule on my show

23:59

that I won't platform an election dinner. won't

24:02

platform a climate dinner just like I wouldn't platform

24:04

a Holocaust dinner. Other people

24:06

will have election denials on, even within my own

24:08

network, each alone I say, but that's my position.

24:10

And you have to draw line and say, what do

24:12

you define as good faith debate? For me, personally,

24:15

I wouldn't have you know, I that was twenty eighteen

24:17

when I debate to Steve Rogers on that Al deserve

24:19

show. Today, Steve Rogers, I'm guessing. I don't know

24:21

the man person. I would assume he's an election tonight

24:23

if he's still a loyal drunkest. Haven't won again?

24:25

Probably not. Because I I've now made a decision

24:28

that debating the election, debating the

24:30

big liars pointless. It helps no one but the

24:32

big liars. So, you know, something

24:34

that's not in the book, maybe for a sequel to this book,

24:36

if everyone buys it and it becomes a

24:37

success, is when to walk away

24:39

from a debate, because that's an

24:40

important discussion as well. When do you

24:42

not have the argument? Because it's actually

24:45

pointless.

24:49

And let let's do let's do John Bolton

24:51

next. But first, I think a lot of

24:54

people are probably wondering

24:56

how you keep getting people

24:58

to come onto your show? Like, it's a

24:59

great question. A normal person would

25:02

look at the track record and

25:05

say, you know what? Speaking

25:07

of knowing when not to debate, I think

25:09

I'm gonna pass on this request. I

25:11

have my own theory for why you've continued

25:13

to be able to get people to come on your show. But I'm

25:15

curious from your perspective.

25:17

I I think it's a mixture of things. I think

25:20

it is when I was out

25:22

to do English during the Short York City Union, I

25:24

do think it was partly the prestige of being

25:26

able to come to the Octavian especially for a lot of Americans

25:28

especially for some of the Eric Prince. People say why did

25:30

Eric Prince agree to do an interview? I'm like, I don't know.

25:32

I wouldn't have done it interview with me if I was him,

25:34

but he did it. And I think it was partly the kind

25:36

of a lot of these people, you know, and I don't think this is

25:38

a bad way. But ego, like -- Mhmm. people

25:40

in public life. They're in public life

25:42

because they like being on camera on TV.

25:45

They have a high opinion of themselves. I think a lot

25:47

of the right wingers and John Bolton is a great example

25:49

of this. I think people like John Bolton are intellectually

25:51

arrogant. And again, I don't say that in a bad way. I mean

25:53

John Bolton is smart guy. The guy was a Yale political

25:56

union debater. The guy has basically

25:58

bested most of the interviewers who have tried to

26:00

take him down. As much as I loathe

26:02

his politics and what he's done, he's

26:04

clearly very good at rhetoric. He's

26:06

very good at argument and debate, and he knows his

26:09

stuff. So somewhere like that inks.

26:11

Well, you know, there's a lot so It's the

26:13

prestige of somewhere like the Oxford Union

26:15

or or cable TV prime time. It's

26:18

it's the intellectual arrogance of, well, nothing's gonna

26:20

happen to me. I'm I'm really good at what I do.

26:22

Mhmm. And then it's just lack of preparation.

26:24

Come back to the point right you made earlier. Like,

26:26

I say in the book, don't go into any debate argument

26:29

without having prepared everything, steelman your arguments.

26:31

Prepare all your arguments. Have all your receipts.

26:33

Check out the other side of the argument. Know both

26:36

sides of John Stewart mill would Hasan, and do research

26:38

on your opponent. A lot of people don't research me.

26:40

I've benefited from the fact -- Mhmm. -- that I flew under

26:42

the radar while. When I moved to the US,

26:44

I was a new, unknown quantity. Even

26:46

in the UK for algebraic English, it's a global

26:49

show that did there. won't say the name of this person,

26:51

but a very, very prominent government official

26:53

from a foreign country. Did an interview with

26:55

Myanmar. Did their English show up front? And

26:57

the mic was up before the interview began, and they

26:59

turned to their assistant, and they

27:00

said, who is this person again? Oh, good luck.

27:02

Which I love. I love the fact that they turned up for interview,

27:05

not even knowing my name. I was like, okay. Well, here we go.

27:07

And that same person then complained

27:09

to the Katari government afterwards on behalf of their government

27:11

saying was unfair to them. So,

27:14

yeah, I think it's a lack of preparation as well.

27:16

But, yes, let's not jinx it because love

27:18

having people on the Right. I've got people on I've

27:20

got people on it all sorts of roundabout ways.

27:22

Dan Crenshaw, congressman from Texas and I

27:24

had an argument on

27:25

Twitter, and I just said to him, well, why don't you come on my show and

27:27

continue this? And he agreed. Mhmm. And it was a great

27:29

bit of TV,

27:30

which I talk about in the book. Alright. Let's

27:32

roll this John Bolton speaking of the Yale debater.

27:35

Let me ask you this. Can I ask how much

27:37

of your antipathy

27:38

your criticism

27:39

towards Iran? I know you've been very critical

27:42

of Iran.

27:43

Over fifteen In fifteen minutes of hailing up. Let me

27:45

ask you this. How how much of your antipathy

27:47

towards on is to do with geopolitics. How

27:49

much of it is to do with the fact that you've had a long association

27:52

with a group called the MEK, which was once a

27:54

terrorist group banned by the state department while

27:56

you work there. You don't mention it in your

27:58

book. And I looked in your book.

28:00

There's no mention of the MEK. I think you took tens

28:02

of thousands of dollars for several

28:04

speeches. Just wondering how much that influences

28:06

your policy on Iran. You you know

28:08

that I took tens of thousands of dollars

28:10

from Speeches, for speeches at liberal

28:12

universities in the United States.

28:15

This is really

28:18

about as low as it gets. The the

28:20

fact is that Hillary Clinton,

28:23

perhaps someone used support, put

28:25

the off the US list of

28:27

terrorist organizations. How about

28:29

that. I speak what I

28:30

Yeah. She

28:31

took it off in two thousand and twelve. You were speaking

28:33

with them in two thousand ten when they were still a band

28:35

group.

28:36

Yeah. Now look, that that that you're

28:39

simply wrong on your facts on this.

28:41

I see No. You were there in Paris in two an

28:43

intent speaking at the Mehdi rally when

28:45

there was still a banned terrorist group according to

28:48

the state of Wyoming.

28:48

That's my opinion. Nobody buys

28:50

my opinion, and you could ignore that

28:53

if you want. I'm very comfortable. I have

28:55

never said anything other than what I believe.

28:57

And we are now, sir, twenty minutes

28:59

into this

28:59

interview, would you said was for fifty.

29:02

I

29:02

believe it's fifteen minutes. I've got a timer going

29:04

off in my ear. So yeah.

29:07

So

29:08

tell yeah. Tell us about that one. So that I

29:10

I love that clip because it

29:12

has everything. It has everything.

29:14

So it has John Bolton, a guy who

29:16

is a deeply odious figure. Who's never

29:19

really been held to account for his odious

29:21

policies over the years. And there's another clip that people

29:23

can watch where I pushed him on their artwork, whether he sleeps

29:25

at night. And obviously, no one actually ever asked him a basic

29:27

moral question how he feels about all the dead people

29:30

that he helped to bring about. But that exchange

29:32

on the MEK, I love, because He'd

29:35

never been asked about that. This guy has

29:37

spoken at this group, the Mujairi Njal DMEKA

29:39

lot of American politicians, a lot of Democrats, had

29:41

also spoken at that group. But Bolton has

29:43

been there for a while. And what I love about that is we

29:45

did our homework. I went, I watched

29:48

YouTube, I transcribed it myself. This

29:51

was for MSNBC, peacock at the time.

29:53

I'd left Algeria English now and I said, look, I'm still

29:55

gonna bring the same style, the same research. We

29:57

did our homework, our whole chapter on homework.

29:59

We do our homework. So when you do your homework

30:01

and when you plan out the interview, something I talk about

30:03

in the book is role play. Roleplay

30:06

anything you're gonna do. Try and think about what's

30:08

gonna they're gonna say this. You're gonna say this. Get

30:10

a friend. Get a colleague to talk you through

30:12

what's gonna happen. When you do that, you know

30:14

what's coming. So when I say you spoke in

30:16

two thousand ten, I know that he's gonna

30:18

say, well, Hillary Clinton delisted

30:20

it. Well, no, she didn't. That was two thousand

30:23

ten. I'm ready with my comeback. Everything

30:25

is planned out. You're not winging it.

30:27

It's all there. I have a structure. I have

30:29

a plan. And it's going fine because

30:31

he's walking into all the kind of traps that

30:33

have been set from. I know exactly where he's gonna

30:35

go. I know exactly what he's gonna say. I didn't

30:37

know he's gonna hide behind the clock and say,

30:39

well, the time's up, which it wasn't. That was a

30:41

great moment because we were nowhere near fifteen minutes, but

30:44

it clearly showed that he wanted to end the interview without

30:46

kind of walking out dramatically.

30:49

And it's just a great moment. It's a great

30:51

moment to be able to put down your receipts

30:54

which are undeniable, unbeatable, unquestionable

30:56

receipts, the facts. See someone

30:59

say, well, you're wrong on the facts and say, well, actually

31:01

know the facts are on my side. And then

31:03

have them hide behind the clock. So it was it

31:05

was it it does a lot of things that Claire,

31:07

in terms of preparation, in terms of research,

31:09

in terms of role playing, in terms of bringing your

31:11

receipts in terms of having the follow ups

31:13

and not just moving on to the next

31:15

topic. It

31:16

also shows the value of a book tour because I've

31:18

I've noticed that

31:18

Yes. --

31:19

you know, I'm able to get people there which wanna

31:21

talk to me otherwise. When they have a book

31:23

out. That's such a good point to go back to your early question.

31:25

Why people come on? They're promoting books as I am right

31:27

now?

31:27

There you go. That's right. So

31:30

you mentioned Eric Prince. Being unable

31:32

to resist the allure of the Oxford Union.

31:35

So let let's play that that famous clip.

31:37

You're a big supporter of Donald Trump. You've

31:39

been questioned by special counsel Robert Mueller.

31:41

Over the Russia gate investigation. He's looked

31:44

at your laptop and your phones, I believe.

31:46

You've also testified to Congress. In November twenty

31:48

seventeen, you told Congress under oath that

31:50

you played, quote, no official or

31:52

really unofficial role in the Trump campaign.

31:54

What you didn't tell Congress is that on August

31:56

third twenty sixteen, you were at

31:59

meeting during the campaign at Trump Tower

32:01

with Don Junior, Trump's son

32:03

with Steven Miller, then a campaign adviser to

32:05

Trump with George Nader, a former Blackwater

32:08

colleague of yours who acts as a back channel to the Saudis,

32:10

the minorities. He also happens to be a convicted

32:12

pedophile. And also Joel Zamo,

32:14

an Israeli expert on social media

32:16

manipulation, how come you didn't mention that

32:18

meeting to Congress given it so relevant to

32:20

their investigation? I

32:23

did. As part of the part of the investigations,

32:25

I certainly disclosed any any

32:27

meetings, the very, very nice Not in the Congressional

32:29

testimony you gave to We went through it. You didn't

32:32

mention anything about August twenty sixteen meeting in Trump

32:34

Tower. They specifically asked you what context do you have

32:36

and you didn't answer that? I

32:38

don't believe I was asked that question. You

32:40

were asked whether any communicate formal communications

32:42

or contact with the campaign. You said apart from writing

32:45

papers putting up yard

32:46

signs, no. That's what you

32:48

said. I've got the transcript of conversation

32:50

here.

32:51

Sure. I might have been I

32:53

think I was at Trump headquarters or the campaign

32:55

headquarters maybe now? August third twenty sixteen.

32:58

Usable? An Israeli dude, a backchannel

33:00

to the Emirates on the

33:01

Saudis, Don Junior. Steven

33:03

Miller, were

33:03

there to talk about Iran policy? Are you there to talk

33:05

about Iran policy? Mhmm. Don't you think that's something important

33:07

to disclose to the Intelligence Committee while

33:09

you're on road? You did. Didn't. We just went

33:12

through the testimony. There's no mention of the Trump

33:14

Tower meeting in August twenty

33:15

sixteen. Why not?

33:16

I don't

33:17

know if they got the transcript wrong.

33:21

They got the transcript on say, we got I

33:23

don't know. I remember I remember certainly just

33:25

just We

33:25

need to get with people for you because We

33:27

know that Robert Mueller, he hasn't been able to establish

33:29

collusion yet, but he has got a lot

33:31

of guys relying to the authorities

33:33

and not telling the whole

33:34

truth. Is that problem now? Even if you accidentally

33:37

didn't tell them that could come back and haunt

33:39

you.

33:40

I fully cooperated. I haven't heard anybody. haven't

33:42

heard from anybody in more than nine months.

33:44

I mean, I mean, members of Congress

33:46

after they discovered this meeting have talked about certain witnesses

33:49

not telling the truth, but you believe you told

33:51

Congress about this

33:51

meeting, even though it's not in the transcript, just to be clear.

33:54

I I believe so. Yeah. Boy.

33:57

Brodle. What what were the actual

33:59

what was the fallout from that? It's a good

34:01

question because obviously Eric Prince Eric

34:03

Prince owns a free man. The fallout the

34:05

short term fallout, I mean, it was a Trump

34:07

DOJ, but Adam Schiff who was an House Intelligence

34:10

Committee Chair. Took my interview clip.

34:12

It was played to him that Sunday on

34:14

Meet the Press. And I was like,

34:16

oh, wow. This is going this is getting big. It'd already gone

34:18

viral. It had millions of views online. And

34:21

he referred it to the DOJ as an example

34:23

of, you know, was it untruthful testimony.

34:28

That investigation in the end, I don't

34:30

know what happened to that. This is a great question. I should go

34:32

back and check into it. But what was interesting about

34:34

that was that Prince had

34:36

been on multiple interviews up until

34:38

that point. He wasn't on a book tour, but he was doing a

34:40

media tour, promoting his idea of a mercenary

34:42

army in Afghanistan. That's why he had agreed

34:45

to come on the show. He was promoting something at

34:47

the time. And it was amazing that no one had actually,

34:49

we sat, my team and I sat and went through the transcript.

34:51

I printed out and brought it windy into the Oxford Union

34:53

Hasan, waved it in my hand. By the way, a prop,

34:56

always very useful to having a debate or argument,

34:58

can't be actual physical receipts in your hand.

35:00

Also always great to have live audience. I say in

35:02

the book that first chapter of the book is all about

35:04

the audience. How do you use audience? In that clip,

35:06

just listening back to it ten years later. The audience

35:08

laughing is almost like a force amplifier,

35:10

force multiplier -- Mhmm. -- in that, you know, if

35:12

if it's just me and him in room on our own with a cameraman,

35:15

he can get out of more stuff than he can when

35:17

he's on stage and hundreds of people are laughing at

35:19

the ridiculousness of his responses. And

35:22

there is an example of where we've

35:24

gone through the transcript. Yeah. A lot of interviewers

35:26

aren't able to do that. When he says, well, I said

35:28

it was in transcript, they'll just move on to the next question.

35:30

I'm able to say, but you didn't say in the

35:32

transcript because we went through it. Only do we go

35:34

through it, we have it here in our hands. So

35:37

it it was a powerful moment and I think, you

35:39

know, it it helped me get my current job when

35:41

I was interviewed at MSNBC that the boss

35:43

made it clear that they knew me from the Eric Prince's

35:45

Club. Mhmm. That's how they knew. There's British dude

35:47

who worked at the end of December to zero at that point.

35:50

It certainly made me well known in American Media

35:52

Circle. And again,

35:54

it was because like with John

35:56

Bolton, you have this kind of right wing

35:58

odious figure who's done awful things

36:01

but has never really been challenged on

36:03

them. Despite doing multiple interview, it's not

36:05

like Prince or Bolton run away from cameras.

36:07

They do loads of interviews. They just never

36:09

seemed to get caught in any of them.

36:12

And I made up my goal to make sure that

36:14

I hold them to account whether it's on Iraq and the

36:16

MEK with John Bolton. Whether it was on the Trump

36:18

Tower meeting and and and

36:20

many other issues with Eric Prince as many

36:22

urge people to go watch that interview we talk about a

36:25

lot of stuff where we catch him out on,

36:27

for example, his reference to Iraqi, his

36:29

barbarians, which he tried to deny, but I had his book

36:32

and the quotes ready to go. So it

36:34

it for me, that was a great interview for me

36:36

in my career, but I also think, as you said, it had

36:38

an impact had members of Congress discussing

36:40

it, sending it to the DOJ, it

36:42

it reminds you of the value of interviews.

36:44

Some people that well, there's no point interview, probably not gonna

36:47

get anywhere in this day of spin and spin

36:49

doctors and media training. But

36:51

no, there are moments that can still make a

36:53

difference, and that's why I'm a great believer in the interview.

36:55

I'm a great believer in the power of debate.

36:57

And I think it really does show the value

36:59

of that physical receipt. And I think with the Bolton

37:02

interview mentioning that his speech

37:04

was in Paris at a

37:05

rally, was somewhat tantamount

37:08

to a physical receipt because it has so many

37:10

details.

37:10

Except if you if you had just said,

37:12

no. No. You spoke at twenty in twenty ten.

37:14

And he'd say, well, no, I didn't. Then it's

37:16

like, you're kind of going back and forth that

37:18

he said

37:18

she slipped. Right. I was

37:19

gonna play the clip. But remember, he was saying,

37:21

your time was just gonna he'd have been he'd been

37:23

gone by the time clip

37:25

was better

37:25

than playing. I

37:26

had the clip. But right. And so then when you have the

37:28

physical paper, like, here

37:30

here's the transcript, then the only thing that's left

37:32

to him is to say, well, plus somebody typed

37:34

it wrong, which then as you said -- Yeah.

37:37

-- it draws it draws the

37:38

laughter. draws really cute. And and, yeah,

37:40

the only option I said the book was was he supposed to run

37:42

out of the hall Joey Tribiani style

37:44

and friends because he just ran out when he's caught embarrassed.

37:47

And what was funny is of all the guests I've interviewed

37:49

on that show, which was called head to head on on

37:51

Aldisir English. Only two

37:53

guests have basically left, without

37:56

speaking to me after the show, just completely

37:58

silent in the green room afterwards, and one was already

38:00

in print. Unsurprising. Had

38:02

a very firm Hasan checked

38:03

yet. Shocking. So for the

38:05

for the last one, you've you've got a kind

38:07

of a fun clip here with the Saudi ambassador

38:10

of Abdul Al

38:11

Malayme. Let's play that one. This is

38:13

from upfront. Mehdi people might say,

38:15

that's a good thing. There should be democracy in

38:17

Syria. There should be an elected government in Syria.

38:19

But they might also wonder why are you okay with

38:21

an elected government in Syria, but not

38:23

an elected government in Saudi Arabia. If the people

38:25

of Syria get to choose their own rulers

38:27

or head of

38:28

state. What come to people of Saudi Arabia? Choose

38:30

their own head. Go

38:31

and ask the people of Saudi Arabia. We're happy

38:33

with with your of course, Luca. We

38:34

still feel inside you're

38:35

able to ask for a

38:36

change in government to call for the king I

38:39

didn't say

38:39

go and call for change of government. I said go

38:41

and call and ask the Saudi people whether

38:43

they are happy with their system

38:44

of how do I do

38:45

then? What's the process? In any way you want, in

38:47

any

38:47

way you want, opinion points, anything.

38:51

And you will find, well, we will have elections at

38:53

some point of

38:53

time. We've started with monetary elections,

38:56

but elections is not the panacea

38:58

for everything.

38:59

No,

38:59

I agree. But you said you were elections in Syria?

39:01

I'm saying, one, have elections in Saudi as well.

39:03

Well, be just because there are elections

39:05

in Syria, doesn't mean there have to be elections

39:07

somewhere else. I said elections and you agreed

39:09

is another panacea for everything. The

39:12

the key question is is the population

39:15

content and happy and satisfied with

39:17

the formal government that they have. And

39:19

I would like

39:21

to claim that if you went to Saudi Arabia,

39:23

And if you conducted a survey in Saudi Arabia

39:26

in any way official formal

39:27

otherwise, you will find a

39:29

high degree of support the

39:31

system of government in in Saudi Arabia partly

39:33

because if they do say they don't want this government, there

39:35

was another government. They'll go to jail. No. It's

39:37

against the law in Saudi

39:39

Arabia. To call for a change in the system of government.

39:41

But that's not the issue. The issue is the issue.

39:43

No. No. It's How can I So I want a

39:45

different system of government if it's illegal

39:47

for me to say I'm saying that

39:49

if there was a way by which

39:51

you can ask the common people

39:53

in the street anonymously, privately

39:56

There really was called voting? Well,

39:59

I we voting along

40:01

the lines of Western democracy is not

40:03

No.

40:04

Along the lines of whatever you want in Syria. Okay?

40:06

Well, I mean, even that is not

40:08

the solution for a

40:11

system of What is important is

40:13

the pact between the government and

40:15

the governor, the mutual

40:18

acceptance. I can tell you

40:20

that that mutual acceptance is

40:22

much higher in Saudi Arabia

40:24

than in almost any other country in the

40:26

world.

40:27

Yeah. Beyond how painful that is,

40:30

what lessons should people draw from that one?

40:33

The lesson is don't do what Aiden and go into

40:35

a Saudi consulate as journalist because that

40:37

was pre Gemalto drug two days, but I was

40:39

able to leave alive from the southeast

40:41

Consulate at the UN. That's where Ambassador

40:43

Marlon serves. That interview

40:45

and actually, let me just make it without wanting to bang

40:48

my own drum too much. The all the clips you

40:50

played do one import make

40:52

one important overall point, which is you

40:54

have a Trump supporter, Steve Rogers. You

40:56

have Eric Prince. You have John Bolton. You

40:58

have a Saudi ambassador. What do they all have in common?

41:01

They're not people who are shy of the media.

41:03

They're all people who do lot of interviews. Why

41:05

did those forecliffs all of them go viral?

41:07

Like millions and millions of views? Because what

41:09

I did was I asked them questions and did things

41:12

with them and held into it in a way that they hadn't been

41:14

held before. And that is what I say to be honest, one

41:16

of the reasons I wrote the book, which is try

41:18

and do what I do or try and what

41:20

I do is not that hard. I'm not coming

41:22

in to say, I'm amazing. Look how unique I have.

41:24

Now I'm saying, Anyone else could have done what

41:26

I did prior to what I did, but they didn't.

41:28

And I'm saying, you can do it. It can be

41:31

done. Let me show you how. And,

41:33

you know, some of the different lessons in the book, you take

41:35

that Saudi clip in particular. Saudi

41:37

ambassadors ago who does lots of interviews with the Mehdi,

41:40

And I came along with one goal in

41:42

mind, which is I wanna talk about democracy, the lack

41:44

of democracy in Saudi Arabia. And everything

41:47

leaves that goal. have a clear goal, and that's where

41:49

I wanna get too. That's my you know, that's the end

41:51

route of the journey I'm on. And I deploy

41:53

a multiple different things, so there's a chapter in the book

41:55

on, bring your receipts. I have my receipts.

41:57

When he says, Well, you know, what about, you know,

41:59

Satsana Pan and say, well, what about Syria? You just

42:01

said Syria. That's my receipt. I'm

42:03

quoting him back to him. When

42:05

I say, for example, there's a chapter on booby

42:08

traps. What's know, in in the media politicians

42:10

like to call it the gotcha question. Right? I'm sure someone's

42:12

accused you once and asking me a gotcha question.

42:15

Gotcha questions are fine. I mean, that's politician's

42:17

use of phrase got to to try and dismiss a totally legitimate

42:19

question. What I got your question is doing is showing

42:21

you that you've got yourself trapped. Nothing wrong with showing

42:23

someone that. I think I think there's anything untoward

42:26

with that. I do a chapter on booby traps. This

42:28

idea that you unbalance your opponent

42:30

by kind of trapping them in their own words,

42:32

in their own contradictions. And with the

42:34

Saudi ambassador, I led him to that point.

42:36

I led him into that booby trap. The reason I

42:38

brought up Syria, when I asked him, do you support

42:41

elections in Syria? I knew that he's gonna

42:43

say yes, And the only reason I brought up elections

42:45

in Syria is because I was gonna say, so what about

42:47

Saudi Arabia then? He had just walked you should have seen

42:49

his face. He'd just walked into that truck. He knew

42:51

now. He's an uncomfortable terrain. He doesn't

42:53

wanna talk about democracy in Saudi Arabia.

42:55

And then there's the art of the zinger, the one

42:58

liner. Do you have one good line? One

43:00

good put down that just stops everything

43:02

in their tracks. And my line there as you heard was,

43:05

if you can find one way to tell, ask the people,

43:07

I'm like, yeah, It's called voting. Mhmm.

43:09

Boom. He doesn't really have a comeback to

43:11

that. If you have that one line that shuts everything

43:13

down

43:14

well.

43:14

twenty seven. When he's You call it mic

43:16

drop. You call it I call it a zinger. Whatever you

43:18

wanna call it, that one liner. So that

43:20

clip shows you a mix of different things. It shows,

43:22

you know, the planning and preparation of what is the interview

43:25

about. It shows you how the importance

43:27

of bringing receipts. It shows you the importance

43:29

of setting your little traps It shows the

43:31

importance of having the one liner, the zinger.

43:34

And yeah, he he wasn't expecting any

43:36

of that, and III was just

43:38

glad to leave with the tapes.

43:39

Right. You you can see how you walk him into

43:42

that that amazing line of him saying,

43:44

if only there was a if you could find a confidential

43:46

way that people could expressed their their preferences

43:49

on public policy -- Yeah. -- then

43:51

then you would be able to find out what people

43:53

thought. I think that's a good place to end it because

43:55

you know, if you go back to the Oxford

43:58

Union debate over whether

44:00

or not Islam is peaceful religion,

44:02

I think pretty much everybody listening

44:05

to this and say, well, that's incredibly impressive,

44:07

not but not something that I could

44:09

see myself being able to actually do.

44:12

But these other clips actually

44:14

are what I think within the capacity of

44:16

of most people to do if

44:19

they just do their work ahead of time. And

44:21

and focus on the interview and don't and don't

44:23

let it don't let it go. And so that that's where

44:25

think this this book is so valuable. And

44:27

I I think I really encourage anybody

44:30

who you know, I can't think

44:32

of anybody actually who wouldn't benefit

44:34

from

44:34

this. Like, who who in this world doesn't

44:36

need argue at some point with somebody. Well,

44:39

that's that's the point I make. I make the point in

44:41

the introduction that people like Dale Carnegie and others

44:44

are like, oh, arguments are bad. Run away from them.

44:46

And my point is I like to run towards arguments.

44:48

Partly out of my personal preference, but also whether

44:50

we like it or not, everyone at some point

44:53

or another, every man, woman, or child wants to

44:55

win an argument, needs to win an argument,

44:57

and I believe can win an argument. We're

44:59

all capable of doing it having that debate.

45:02

And I say in this book, here are some of tricks

45:04

and techniques. Here are some of the tried and tested

45:06

principles going back two thousand years, like much

45:08

greater minds than me, have developed a lot

45:10

of this stuff. I don't claim to be original

45:12

on a lot of this stuff. I'm bringing tried and tested

45:14

methods from ancient Greeks, ancient Romans

45:16

from Churchill, JFK, MLK, and

45:18

I'm throwing in my own experiences as well.

45:21

And I'm saying, here's how you learn it, here's

45:23

how you develop

45:23

it, here's how you teach it. And the book is

45:26

called win every argument, the art of debating,

45:28

persuading, and public speaking.

45:30

Mehdi, thanks so much for joining me. Thanks

45:32

so much, Ryan. It was great to be back on Dick's Friday.

45:38

And that was Mehdi and that's our show.

45:40

This is the outro that he wrote years ago,

45:42

deconstructed his production of the intercept.

45:45

Our producer is hose old virus. Our

45:47

supervising producer is Laura Flynn. The

45:49

show was mixed by William Stanton. Our theme music

45:51

was composed by Bart Warshaw. Roger Hodge

45:53

is the intercepts editor in chief Now Ryan

45:55

Graham, DC Bureau Chief of The INTERCEPT. If you'd

45:58

like to support our work, go to the INTERCEPT dot

46:00

com slash give. Your donation, no

46:02

matter what the amount makes real difference. And if

46:04

you haven't already, please subscribe to the show

46:06

so you can hear it every week. And please go and leave

46:08

us a rating or a review. It helps people find

46:10

the show. Wanna give us additional feedback emails

46:13

and podcast at the intercept dot

46:14

com. Thanks so much. And, Mehdi, could you have

46:17

done that that outro by

46:18

heart? I could. As you said it, I was

46:20

like, wow. It's been a few years. Although

46:23

every day that has changed --

46:24

It's true. -- but but war shows who

46:26

did the fun. That's right. It's the one consistent

46:28

name and out.

46:29

That name will never take some

46:30

great memories, and I love this deconstructed audience.

46:33

So thank you for listening. Alright. Thank you. See you soon.

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