0:15

Pushkin from

0:20

Pushkin Industries. This is Deep Background,

0:23

the show where we explore the stories behind

0:25

the stories in the news. I'm Noah

0:28

Feldman. As we've explored

0:30

a wide range of aspects of power

0:32

this season on Deep Background, we have

0:35

not yet had the opportunity to talk

0:37

about one of the areas of power that I'm most

0:39

interested at a personal level, and that is

0:41

the deployment of power in professional

0:43

sports. Today, we get

0:46

the chance to take that question on

0:48

directly. We're joined

0:50

by Michelle Roberts, who is the

0:52

executive director of the National Basketball

0:54

Players Association, that is,

0:57

the NBA players Union. She's

0:59

the first woman to hold that job, and indeed

1:02

the first woman to head a major professional

1:04

sports union in North America.

1:06

Michelle came to this job through a rather usual

1:09

pathway. She began her

1:11

career as a lawyer as a public defender

1:14

in the Public Defender Service for the District

1:16

of Columbia, where she was mentored

1:18

by the great Charles Ogletree,

1:21

who himself went on to become a famous

1:23

and influential professor of criminal law at

1:25

Harvard Law School. As

1:27

a litigator, Michelle was known as

1:29

fearsome and powerful,

1:32

and she moved ultimately from the

1:34

public Defender's office to working as

1:36

a litigator at major Washington

1:39

DC law firms, in which

1:41

role she was widely noted

1:43

as one of the most experienced and successful

1:46

and frightening litigators

1:49

anywhere in the United States.

1:52

From there, Michelle went straight to the NBA

1:54

Players Association, and her tenure

1:56

has been marked by some remarkable

1:59

historical transformations in the role

2:01

and identity of players, not to mention

2:03

by the particularities of COVID,

2:06

including the bubble experience and

2:08

more recent the efforts of the

2:10

league to come to terms with vaccination. In

2:13

short, Michelle is ideally placed

2:15

to bring us behind the scenes and explain

2:18

to us a little bit about how power

2:20

operates in professional sports in general

2:23

and in the NBA in particular.

2:26

We're thrilled that she was able to join us. Michelle,

2:34

thank you so much for being here.

2:36

On deep background, our theme this

2:38

year is power, and what we try to do on

2:40

the show is bring listeners who

2:43

are pretty good at following the news and knowing what's going

2:45

on on the surface of things behind the

2:47

scenes to try to understand how

2:50

power actually gets deployed in the

2:52

times in places where it does get deployed,

2:54

and in some sense your job is like the archetype

2:57

of that, because everyone knows

2:59

what the NBA Players Association is on

3:01

one level or another, and they know that

3:03

as executive director, you're both speaking

3:06

on behalf of the players and also trying

3:08

to get them all on the same page. And

3:10

they all understand that you're both collaborative

3:12

with the league and also occasionally

3:15

oppositional to it, where your interests

3:18

and their interests diverge. And

3:20

I think that's basically all that anybody understands

3:23

about how their relationship actually works.

3:25

So I wonder if you would just start for

3:27

readers who know that much but probably

3:30

not much more, by describing how you

3:32

think about the power

3:34

of the players and their association and how

3:36

it operates in relation to

3:38

the power of the owners in the league. It's

3:42

a bit of a dance because historically,

3:44

not just in basketball but across all

3:47

sports, players were never

3:49

expected to be in any

3:51

position to exercise power. The

3:53

relationship between professional

3:55

athletes and team owners has always

3:57

been one of aren't

4:00

you lucky that I'm willing to fund this team

4:02

and pay you to play? And

4:05

there was this perception that the

4:07

players were owned thing, but the opportunity,

4:11

and beyond that, the

4:13

ownership had the right to generate as

4:15

much revenue as it could and dole

4:18

out whatever money it thought was appropriate to the

4:20

players. That there was no sort

4:22

of sense that we're in this together. You

4:24

can't do this without me from the player's

4:27

perspective, and that has changed

4:30

dramatically. Obviously, in my view,

4:32

the advent of the union

4:35

made a real difference. It was not

4:37

until they organized and demanded

4:40

the very beginning a pension planet's just

4:42

just a pension plan, not the compensation

4:44

that we're talking about now. There was

4:46

only when they threatened not to perform, not to

4:49

play, that they began to exercise

4:51

for the first time. Power. Fast forward

4:54

sixteen seventy five years and

4:56

you've got players who are

4:58

obviously have done

5:00

well in terms of increasing their

5:02

compensation, but the work hasn't ended.

5:05

There's much more to be done. Frankly, even

5:07

now there are occasionally when I

5:10

gently have to remind the league

5:12

and the owners that you don't tell us

5:14

what to do. We negotiate how

5:17

we're going to behave knock

5:19

on wood. Things have been pretty good

5:21

in the past seven eight years. We've enjoyed labor

5:23

piece, but it's a constant

5:26

push and pull because I think

5:28

your historical DNA

5:31

if you're an owner, is well, why don't I have

5:33

to get permission from them I'm the owner.

5:36

Well, players don't see it that way any longer.

5:38

So we manage. But

5:40

sometimes it's a little bit more stressful

5:44

than other times. We're in a good place. Now, I'm

5:46

going to ask you about that word owner and it's

5:49

complexity. In a moment before I do you

5:51

use the word that really fascinated me, you said you

5:54

gently remind them, And I guess what

5:56

I wanted to ask you is obviously, when relations

5:58

are good, you can be gentle. But

6:01

it seems like the relationship between

6:03

in this industry, at least between management

6:06

and labor is basically

6:10

on something not very gentle at all. Namely,

6:13

you have one really really big

6:15

leverage point, which is that without your players,

6:17

there would be no NBA. But

6:20

the only way you can really exercise that leverage

6:22

ultimately would be to walk, and that

6:24

would cause everybody an enormous amount of

6:26

money. Meanwhile, from the

6:28

owner's perspective or from the league's perspective,

6:30

they really really don't want that to happen, and they

6:33

want to make exactly zero concessions

6:35

except for the ones that would lead to that happening.

6:39

So I guess what I'm wondering is, how

6:41

do you do gentle in a world

6:43

where both sides understand

6:46

that the biggest, the only threat really

6:48

is the enormous threat. How

6:50

do you lower the temperature in that way? You

6:53

know it's it's by reminding,

6:55

if necessary, that we're talking

6:58

the potential from mutual destruction. Right,

7:01

this is a multi billion dollar industry,

7:04

and as wealthy as the owners are, and frankly

7:06

as wealthy as the players are, no

7:08

one wants to walk away from this huge part

7:10

of gold. No one does. We

7:12

are grown ups, they're adults. We

7:14

can scream and yell and threaten and

7:17

eventually not get anywhere. Or we

7:19

can and again we'll gently agree

7:21

we don't want to go there. It's

7:24

a no one's interests not to mention

7:26

our fans. For us to stop playing,

7:28

they will do damage to our business. But

7:30

I'm happy to report is that most people

7:32

are pretty smart and sufficiently

7:35

self interesting that they won't

7:37

go there. And so you know, in our

7:39

last CBA negotiation, we had

7:42

some difficult negotiating sessions,

7:44

but as long as we kept in mind

7:46

that it was in the best interest of everyone

7:48

in that room that we keep this

7:50

business operating. We were able

7:52

to tone things down when they got a little

7:54

bit too volatile and figure

7:57

out that we had to figure something out. If

7:59

people say it all the time, it's someone cliche that the

8:01

best negotiations are one where everybody

8:03

goes away thinking that they wanted a little bit more,

8:06

but at the same time goes away believing I

8:08

can live with That's

8:10

why you have to be When I was preparing to

8:12

talk to you, I went back and read the

8:15

interviews that you gave early after

8:17

you took over as executive director in twenty

8:19

fourteen, and then I read some conversations

8:22

and listened to some conversations that you had more recently,

8:25

and I noticed, at least I think I noticed

8:27

what I imagine might have been a subtle

8:29

strategy. And since your successor

8:32

has recently been announced, maybe you're willing to share

8:34

a few tricks of the trade. Was it conscious

8:36

on your part to open

8:39

by saying, I have a lot of cards

8:42

in my hand, and I'm going to call

8:44

things out when they need to be called out. Before

8:47

I've engaged in any negotiation, I'm going

8:49

to use words like monopoly, because it is a monopoly.

8:51

I'm going to say it's preposterous that they would blocks

8:54

total salaries. I'm going to say,

8:56

good luck if the owners play the games, which I

8:58

thought was a very good line. They used it, let's have the

9:00

owners play out the games. And then I watched

9:02

over the course of the next six seven years

9:05

as you came to be praised

9:07

alongside the the league for

9:10

having this incredibly positive relationship,

9:12

especially compared to other professional sports leagues,

9:15

and it's like your rhetoric just mellowed out

9:17

a little bit because presumably

9:19

you were winning. So am I Am

9:21

I getting any of that right? You know? I

9:24

can't claim that there was a grand strategy

9:26

or design. I will say this, I

9:28

knew that nobody knew what in

9:30

the heck I was going to do when I got when

9:33

I got right, I had no

9:35

prior history in sports, let

9:37

alone in basketball, right, So I,

9:39

frankly, rather than view that as being a

9:41

bit of a negative or disadvantage,

9:44

view that as a positive because no

9:47

one had a book on me. And what I

9:49

didn't want people to think was that I was shy.

9:51

Not I wish I'd been accused of

9:53

that. Once maybe in my life, but that having been

9:56

me either, so it's all right, And I didn't want to be dishonest,

9:59

and so I thought the questions that were being posed

10:01

to me were fair. You know, what do you think

10:03

about the salary cap? I

10:05

still think it's preposterous. I think it's absolutely outrageous

10:08

that only in professional sports and basketball

10:10

and football do

10:12

you have a talented person not

10:15

being able to get as much money as

10:17

he or she can be

10:19

paid. Right, it's insane that it's not illegal. It's

10:21

hard to believe that it's not illegal. Not illegal

10:23

because it's been collectively bargained. That's

10:25

the point. You can get all this stuff

10:28

as long as it's been collectively bargained, and

10:30

that's the point. So I was just telling the truth. I

10:32

was answering questions. Honestly, I

10:34

think it was making the owners then the league

10:36

nervous, and frankly they should

10:39

have been. And I didn't do it to scare

10:41

anyone. I just wanted everyone to understand

10:43

that this is my view of how

10:45

this business is structured. But I'm

10:48

not an idiot. I understand collective bargaining,

10:50

and all the things I purported to

10:52

be preposterous were collectively

10:55

bargained. Am I being dismissive

10:57

of the efforts that went into those negotiations?

10:59

No, because I wasn't there, and that was

11:01

a time when leverage was not were leverages

11:04

today for players. But I

11:06

still think that having a cap system

11:08

is Frankly, if I had my way,

11:11

there would be no cat, there would be no salary.

11:13

So but you know, like I said,

11:15

I'm not God, and I don't think I'm going to be God tomorrow,

11:18

so I understand that these things have to be negotiated.

11:21

You had an unusual background, as you were just

11:23

alluding to. You came to this job, which

11:25

is a job about negotiation, from

11:28

a background in litigation, where

11:30

you had started as a federal public defender

11:33

in Washington, DC and worked with a

11:35

great Charles Ogletree and my wonderful,

11:37

wonderful colleague, and you know, one of the more inspiring people

11:39

I've ever had a chance to work alongside. And

11:42

then you became a private side litigator,

11:45

and you know, everyone feared

11:47

you, because that's how you succeed as a good litigator.

11:50

Right If you're not feared, you're not a successful litigator.

11:52

And it worked, were you in some sense

11:55

able to play on that. You know, people thought,

11:57

oh my goodness, you know, if she goes

11:59

to war, we really do not want to be

12:01

on the other side of that. And then sure

12:03

enough you didn't have to go to war. Yeah.

12:06

I mean, one of the reasons that I

12:08

like being a lawyer was not because I liked

12:10

having a law degree. I like litigation, and

12:13

I even make a distinction between litigation and

12:15

trial work. And one of the things I used to drive

12:17

me really crazy, just especially in my

12:19

old life, just before I got this job, is that I

12:21

had these cases I was litigating was so big,

12:24

and frankly you won by settling,

12:27

right, And but I'd get hired on these big

12:29

cases and I'd say, look, you all have a settlement

12:31

negotiation team. That's not me. I

12:34

want to fight, all right, So you let

12:36

me know if you don't. If you settled it, I don't want

12:38

to be distracted, and I don't want my team to be distracted. We've

12:40

got to be ready for war. But when they

12:42

settled, I'd be a little disappointed.

12:44

Becaust I had a great opening statement I was about to

12:46

deliver, but I knew it wasn't the best interest

12:48

of the client. That the client and decided to settle

12:52

and CBA negotiations here.

12:54

You know, I'm not, like I said, I am

12:57

completely appreciative of the fact that that's why

12:59

they call it collective bargaining, because you're bargaining.

13:02

At the same time, there are some people who

13:04

have had this role, or who have

13:06

had this role in other sports that

13:09

just risk averse that are known

13:11

to the league and teams and not wanting

13:13

to fight. I don't

13:16

want to fight. I don't mind a good

13:18

fight that I will. There

13:20

were times when we had to say, now,

13:22

this is something we'll go to war on because this

13:24

is just fundamentally unfair what you're trying

13:27

to do. It's all about knowing

13:29

what your leverage is, knowing what your players

13:32

will not stand for, and

13:34

then making the argument on their

13:36

behalf. That's what lawyers do. I

13:39

want to zoom back out to the

13:41

deeper dynamics of power between

13:43

the players and the owners, and

13:46

I just want to double click on that word

13:48

owner. Technically, the owner

13:50

owns a franchise and

13:52

then is the employer of

13:55

players. The word, though,

13:57

has a kind of cultural capital,

14:01

and you were suggesting earlier that that word somehow

14:03

actually does say something about at least a mindset

14:06

of management. Do

14:08

you think it's actively different

14:11

in professional sports as

14:13

a consequence than it is in

14:15

other professions that, let's say, are

14:18

connected to entertainment, you know, the

14:20

film business, where you have high

14:22

paid talent and then you have

14:25

studios and so forth. To

14:30

the league's credit, they have tried to substitute

14:32

the word governor for the word

14:35

owner, and it's

14:37

made some

14:39

of my players pleased because they are offended

14:41

by the word owner on some levels. I am

14:43

too. I think I'm just the world that I'm used to

14:46

hearing it, so I remember

14:48

I use governor as well. But the addition

14:50

of the fact that most of the

14:53

players in the NBA are African American

14:56

and most of the governors

14:59

are white, it's especially

15:04

disturbing. A case in

15:06

point, Donald Sterling, who used to own

15:08

the and again own the

15:10

LA Clippers Stories and Merge

15:12

that he would literally go into the

15:15

locker rooms of the LA Clipper players,

15:17

and Chris Paul tells this one

15:20

of the films he did about this. Sterling

15:22

would go in and he'd be rubbing

15:24

the players, and Chris reports that he

15:26

felt like he was being petted, right,

15:29

and then the governors of the teams that we have

15:31

now are frankly much younger,

15:34

much more entrepreneurial, and have

15:36

I think a better met mindset than some of

15:38

the governors some of the owners of these teams

15:41

back in the day. So there's

15:43

a little less concern

15:47

about the title, though we appreciate the change.

15:49

On occasion, though the league will

15:52

communicate repeat to us comments made

15:54

by some of the team governors that suggest

15:57

that the mentality is not quite

15:59

gone. I'd prefer to and

16:02

the league reports too as well us

16:04

as partners, and that that's

16:06

a much more palatable word than owner,

16:10

and I don't want to play games. You own the team, you

16:12

own the franchise, whatever, but you be

16:15

very careful when you begin to use that

16:17

concept and can refer to the employees.

16:21

We'll be right back. One

16:31

of the most significant historical changes

16:33

over your time in your job has

16:36

been the rise of NBA

16:39

players, especially African American players, as

16:42

major voices on crucial

16:44

national questions of importance, most

16:47

significantly on race, an association with Black Lives

16:49

Matter, but not only on racially

16:51

related issues. Of course, we have that legacy

16:53

in the United States going back to nineteen sixties in the

16:56

form of Muhammad Ali, but you know,

16:58

he was in a different kind of a sport with its own very

17:00

complicated dynamics, and there wasn't

17:02

a league that he was actively a

17:04

part of. And of course there have been individually

17:07

individual NBA players Premu Bards

17:09

another great example, who had strong identities

17:11

and took strong stands, not an accident.

17:13

In both of those cases, the Nation of Islam were part

17:15

of the way that they made statements. But

17:17

there's really been a main streaming of the

17:20

expectation that NBA

17:22

players are de facto

17:25

leaders of public

17:27

consciousness, both for white and for

17:29

black people. And I'm

17:32

wondering as you watch that happen, how

17:35

much of it do you think was driven by the aspirations

17:37

of the players, how much of it by

17:39

the expectations of the public, how

17:42

much by the fact that it's also a period

17:44

of time historically where NBA players

17:46

came to be extremely well paid, so that

17:48

now black NBA players were among

17:51

the best paid prominent African

17:53

Americans in the country, and which

17:55

confers a certain obligation of leadership. Arguably,

17:59

Yeah, I think a little

18:01

bit of all that may be there, but I think the principal

18:03

component is the players themselves,

18:06

right, I mean, there are any fans

18:08

who are pushing them into the streets

18:10

and into protests. In back. Quite the contrary,

18:13

we get a lot of fans who used you've

18:15

heard a million times, just shut up and dribble. So

18:18

it's not as if I think that our fans are

18:20

pushing us there. And now the community

18:22

that's a different piece. None of

18:24

these men that I'm working with go out

18:26

on the streets or write those checks, or do

18:29

those those community forums build schools

18:31

because they feel, well, I got to do it

18:33

for my public. I absolutely

18:36

believe this with every ouncew of my being. But they

18:38

do it because they feel it so

18:40

strongly. I'm in the middle of reading Mellow's

18:42

book right now, and it's just the way. It's a great

18:44

read. If yeah, I have it too, it's on myself.

18:47

I'm excited to read it. It's a great read. It goes

18:49

very quickly. And Mellow is one of the one

18:51

of the players who before became popular,

18:53

was in Baltimore in the streets

18:56

marching with the community. That he was a player, but he

18:58

was in the streets marching the community because he passionately

19:01

felt that what was happening in that community was wrong.

19:04

Well, that's the same thing our players are doing

19:06

now. I think they passionately feel these things the

19:08

day friends, though, and I'm

19:11

still marveling at this is their

19:13

appreciation that, oh,

19:16

I feel this way. Maybe I can do something

19:18

about it because I've got

19:20

a platform, and it's a

19:22

platform that Muhammad Ali didn't have. It's a

19:24

platform that Kareem didn't have, that Bill Russell

19:27

didn't have. Despite the passion of all those

19:29

men. It's frankly, Noah,

19:31

it's social media. We

19:33

just got a new rookie class come in and as I try to

19:35

get to know who they are, and I check out their Twitter

19:37

and all this Graham and they've

19:40

got hundreds of thousands of

19:42

people that purport to want to hear what they have to

19:44

say. On

19:46

a good day, I might have five people that call me

19:48

and ask me what's up, Michelle. I

19:50

can even imagine being able to have

19:53

that audience and know that

19:55

if I say black lives

19:57

matter, whether you leave it or not,

20:00

two millions of my followers are going to hear

20:02

me say it, and some of them are gonna

20:04

say, yeah, that's right. Something I say, what is

20:06

he talking about it? And And maybe learn something about these

20:09

issues in the community. Involving the police misconduct.

20:12

Bottom line is, these players completely

20:15

appreciate the power of their platform. And when

20:17

we went to the bubble,

20:20

a condition of going to the bubble was

20:22

that we'd be permitted to talk about

20:24

these issues. There would have been no season

20:27

had the league made the stupid bone hit

20:29

of the mistake of saying, no, you just play,

20:31

We don't want to use any of your iMedia

20:34

time or any of the quarts to the uniform. None

20:36

of that that had happened that have been those

20:38

seasons. So they appreciate

20:40

that they've got platforms. Michelle,

20:42

I want to just ask one more question about

20:44

the kind of responsibility power question,

20:47

you know, the kind of with great power comes

20:49

great responsibility, And that had to do with

20:51

how the Players Association negotiated,

20:55

not the bubble part, which is itself totally

20:57

fascinating and I think part of your incredible legacy,

21:00

but also the post bubble, the vaccination period,

21:02

where you guys sort of came out from the beginning

21:04

and said mandatory vaccinations

21:07

are a non starter. But going to voluntarily

21:10

vaccinate up to a very very high percentage, I

21:12

forget it somewhere between. How

21:14

did you hit on that particular combination

21:17

of factor, because it must have been very delicate

21:19

internal thinking about,

21:22

you know, what was the right thing to do for

21:25

your players, for their health and safety,

21:27

for those smaller number of players who might have not wanted

21:30

to get vaccinated, and ultimately for

21:32

the industry as a whole. You know, I frequently

21:34

say, especially in the last few days or weeks,

21:36

that it was a lot easier when there was no

21:39

vaccine in many ways, because

21:41

I could just concentrate on understanding

21:44

what what we needed to

21:46

do to keep the players as safe as

21:48

possible, to keep COVID out of the house, so

21:50

to speak. You know, the vaccine was going

21:52

to be something that frankly none of us thought was going to be available

21:55

as quickly as it became a bill. Sure, or

21:57

it would work as well as it works, right. So

22:00

the bubble, as horrific ideas that sounded,

22:03

was actually, in any ways an easy decision

22:05

to make because it was a way to have the players

22:07

play but protect them. I mean, there was no

22:09

way we were going to be traveling all over the country and

22:12

being on planes and buses all that, and

22:15

we had zero Once once we got

22:17

to the bubble and people tested, I was

22:19

there. I was there with the guys. We didn't

22:21

have any cases, and so it was a

22:23

completely artificial environment, but I knew

22:25

that they would be safe and it turned

22:27

out well. We could be finished the season, nobody got

22:29

infected, let alone sick. That was

22:31

a success. Then

22:33

the vaccine started

22:36

to happen, and unfortunately, and again,

22:38

you can't separate the politics that

22:40

were going on in the country from the vaccine

22:42

and this notion of whether we'll take it or not,

22:45

and the messages that were coming from the White House

22:47

were so mixed that

22:50

on the one hand, AD's not a big deal, and the

22:52

other hand, I got this just super special

22:54

vaccine. Is he really saying that? Because

22:57

it's true all the scientists political

22:59

There was so many questions that were

23:01

not merely being asked in the country at

23:04

large, but among our players, Michelle,

23:07

is this typical for a vaccine

23:10

to be ready this quickly? I've

23:12

flunk seventh great biologies. I'm the last

23:14

person to ask because we ended up getting our own experts.

23:17

Everybody was sort of learning as it went. And

23:20

to be candidate with you know, you

23:22

would ask me months

23:24

into the vaccine's production, I'd

23:27

have said, I will be lucky if we get fifty percent of

23:29

our players to take it. And you

23:32

know, and I'll admit to this as well,

23:34

I was suspicious. I mean I used to.

23:36

In my whole life, I've represented pharmaceutical

23:39

companies that were being sued in

23:41

class action matters because of allegations

23:44

that their drugs were not safe. How

23:46

did I defend those lawsuits by pointing

23:48

out the years and years

23:50

of study and writings about

23:52

the efficacy and the safety of these drugs

23:54

that we're going for. That was our defense. It

23:57

was very effective. People said, you know, one, I know,

23:59

I think that they didn't. They didn't just throw something

24:01

out there. They study this at

24:03

first in animals got to give

24:05

them, then in humans, and then

24:07

none of that had happened with this vaccine, and

24:09

so I was hard pressed to even personally

24:11

believe that this was safe. At

24:14

my age, I determined I don't have any choice because

24:17

of people that were dying were in my cohort.

24:19

And so to me, the decision was, oh, I know

24:21

what COVID's gonna do to me, I'll take

24:24

my chances, exactly.

24:27

But I thoroughly understood and I still understand,

24:29

that people have to get there, and

24:31

people are making to find my players, But they're right those

24:34

are saying it. Do the research, satisfy

24:36

yourself that this is something that is

24:39

in the best interests of yourself. And now

24:41

what I would I have had a mandatory

24:43

vaccination, Michelle, You

24:46

damn right I would. I would

24:48

have. And I told the players, I

24:50

strongly believe that we should, every

24:52

one of you should have a vaccination. But

24:54

I also understand that I got here

24:57

how I got here, and you

24:59

get you need to get there as well. And I believe

25:02

that they would, And so we voted

25:04

at the time we voted, we voted a couple of times on this.

25:06

By the way the players voted on this. The first

25:08

time it was a non starter. There

25:10

will be no mandatory vaccinations. And I can remember

25:13

players who I know are vaccinated

25:15

right now who said, I don't care if the Good

25:17

Lord himself tells me to roll up my sleeves,

25:19

I'm never taking that. So I knew

25:21

it was going to be a process. And both times

25:24

we voted that the players understood

25:26

that there was a risk

25:29

that was being taken, but not only individually,

25:31

but for themselves and their families and their players

25:33

families. Now we're at ninety six

25:35

percent. I think we're going to get

25:37

even better than that. What I have a mandatory

25:40

vaccine, I would, but it's

25:42

not my call. And the only thing

25:44

I felt responsible for doing was

25:46

making sure that they had as much information as

25:49

they needed. In fact, I'm still

25:51

working on some things which I think might be helpful

25:53

for those guys that was still I'm not sure. I'm

25:55

still worried. My wife says, no, these

25:57

are unprecedented times and all

26:00

of us have had to figure out how we want to manage

26:03

this. It's kind of thought saying what you're saying,

26:05

because I mean it sort of fits one of the themes

26:07

that we've been talking about. The way that

26:09

you guys in the Players Association were successful

26:12

was not by laying

26:14

down a law, but by a process

26:16

of convincing people slowly and

26:19

for them doing the research and convincing themselves. In other

26:21

words, it turned out to be not

26:23

that aspect of the way we

26:25

think as lawyers, that's, you know, there's a right

26:27

and a wrong, there's justice and there's injustice, and

26:29

they're going to fight it out, but rather

26:31

about collaborative conversation

26:34

in a more open ended environment.

26:37

And that actually leads me to my last question,

26:39

which is as you transition

26:41

to whatever you're planning to do next.

26:44

Do you think that the old Michelle, you know,

26:46

the warrior who loves to be in the courtroom,

26:49

will predominate or will

26:51

the Michelle who's enjoyed

26:54

building tremendously successful collaborative

26:57

relationships even across different sets

26:59

of interests be the one who

27:01

predominates. Do you think not to imply they're

27:03

not the same person, but they seem like two aspects of

27:05

the same fascinating life. I

27:09

shell that's going to be our hope

27:12

in control within the first year

27:14

of my retirement, because that's what I'm doing. I'm

27:16

not I'm not taking another job. I

27:18

hope that she actually dust sought

27:21

that list and she's been keeping for the last forty

27:23

years and being able to check some things off.

27:25

There are some things that I want to do that I'd like to do

27:27

before I meet my maker. Having said that

27:29

they're to share one or two of those. I

27:34

gotta tell you, I've been blessed

27:36

with incredible travel professionally.

27:38

I mean, I've been on some of the greatest

27:40

cities on planet, in the country and around

27:42

the world, and I've never with the exception

27:45

of Barcelona, and I just stole four

27:48

days and said, I don't care, I'm

27:50

going to Barcelona. I've never

27:52

had a chance to enjoy those cities beyond you

27:54

know, maybe taking the walk and

27:57

the first place. I want to go to Senegal.

28:00

I fell in love with that country. I want to go

28:02

to Senea. I want to go back to Brazil. I mean I want

28:05

to go. I love South Africa, I've been there a couple of times.

28:07

I want to do Nigeria. I love

28:10

love, love, love, love room. So I want to

28:12

do some traveling just to just to get fat, but

28:14

then I also want to pursue some

28:18

things to keep my brain a little

28:20

bit. I want to return to my biggest

28:22

passion, but just criminal justice. I have recently

28:25

joined a board of a nonprofit that I think is

28:27

doing great work in this space, and I'm

28:29

really excited about the work. I think I'll be

28:31

able to be here and then you'll see me in

28:33

a couple of next games. Well,

28:36

those all sound like they're pretty amazing things. Something

28:38

for you, something for the rest of the world, something

28:40

for fun. Yeah. I really want to thank you for

28:43

sharing your insights and your experiences, and also

28:45

just for your fascinating work, which I think

28:47

has contributed to justice in a lot of really

28:49

interesting ways, from different angles and in different

28:51

perspectives. So thank you, Michelle,

28:54

No, thank you, No, I appreciate it. We'll

28:57

be right back. Listening

29:07

to Michelle, I was please struck

29:10

by her directness in explaining

29:13

how she deploys power

29:15

in her position and how the players

29:17

in the NBA have overtime been

29:19

able to gain greater power visavi,

29:22

the league and the governors

29:24

as team owners are now increasingly

29:27

known. In essence, as Michelle

29:29

made crystal clear, the power

29:32

of the players derives from their ability

29:34

to walk off the job, the most

29:36

fundamental power of any group

29:38

of employees represented by a

29:40

union. Given that circumstance,

29:43

she has been able to craft the interests

29:46

of the players into a far more collegial

29:49

relationship with management

29:51

than exists in other professional

29:54

sports leagues or than existed at

29:56

previous times in the history of the NBA.

29:59

From strength, she generated collaboration

30:02

and collegiality, always

30:04

remembering that being willing to

30:06

go to the mats and fight as needed is

30:09

conferral of power. At

30:11

the same time, Michelle also made it very

30:13

clear that she learned to be collegial

30:16

and she's benefited from that collegiality

30:18

by bringing people to recognize im

30:21

mutuality of interest.

30:24

All of this has given her an inside perspective

30:26

to watch the transformation of the power

30:28

of NBA players through their

30:30

leadership on major issues

30:32

of national social importance, particularly Black

30:35

Lives Matter, and also by

30:37

their ability to wield social media

30:39

presence as an important new tool

30:42

that was not available to earlier generations

30:44

of professional athletes. Ultimately,

30:47

I would say that Michelle's tenure is

30:49

a kind of object lesson in how

30:52

it looks when things actually

30:54

work between labor and management.

30:57

And it's also an object lesson in

30:59

how power subtly and gradually

31:01

can be transformed at the hands

31:03

of sophisticated actors who think

31:05

things through, strategize and

31:08

get results. You can't avoid

31:11

the possibility of conflict, but

31:13

sometimes, if you're as good as Michelle is, you

31:16

can deploy the threat of conflict

31:18

to achieve its exact opposite,

31:21

namely collegiality and collaboration.

31:24

There's a lesson there, I think for all

31:26

of us, no matter what we do for a

31:28

living, and even if like

31:30

me, we're never going to play in

31:33

the NBA until the

31:35

next time I speak to you breathe deep,

31:37

think deep thoughts, play some

31:40

ball, and have a little fun. If

31:44

you're a regular listener, you know I love

31:46

communicating with you here on Deep Background.

31:49

I also really want that communication to

31:51

run both ways. I want to know what

31:54

you think are the most important stories of

31:56

the moment and what kinds of guests you

31:58

think you would be useful to hear from. More

32:00

So, I'm opening a new channel of communication.

32:03

To access it, just go to my website

32:06

Noa Dashfelman dot com. You

32:08

can sign up from my newsletter and

32:10

you can tell me exactly what's on your

32:12

mind, something that would be really

32:14

valuable to me and I hope

32:17

to you too. Deep

32:19

Background is brought to you by Pushkin Industries.

32:22

Our producer is mo La Board, our

32:24

engineer is Benaliday, and our showrunner

32:27

is Sophie Crane mckibbon. Editorial

32:29

support from noahm Osband. Theme

32:32

music by Luis Gera at

32:34

Pushkin. Thanks to Mia Lobell, Julia

32:36

Barton, Lydia, Jean Coott, Heather

32:38

Faine, Carlie mcgliori, Maggie

32:40

Taylor, Eric Sandler, and Jacob Weisberg.

32:43

You can find me on Twitter at Noah r Feldman.

32:46

I also write a column for Bloomberg Opinion, which

32:49

you can find at bloomberg dot com slash

32:51

Feldman. To discover Bloomberg's

32:53

original slate of podcasts, go to

32:55

bloomberg dot com slash podcasts,

32:59

and if you liked what you heard today, please

33:01

write a review or tell a friend. This

33:03

is deep background