0:15

Pushkin. Hey,

0:20

it's Jake Today. We're continuing

0:22

with the Ronnie Karraschillo story. This

0:24

is part two, so if you haven't listened

0:26

to part one yet, you should definitely go back

0:29

and do that now. So

0:33

last episode we ended with Ronnie getting

0:35

some good news or what seemed like it.

0:37

Anyhow, the court basically told

0:39

him, we think your sentence of two

0:42

hundred to six hundred years may

0:44

have violated a clause in the Illinois

0:46

Constitution. That clause,

0:48

by the way, says quote, all

0:50

penalties shall be determined both

0:52

according to the seriousness of the offense

0:55

and with the objective of restoring the offender

0:58

to useful citizenship. Bottom

1:00

line, Ronnie could now

1:03

be resentenced. Well maybe.

1:06

Last June there was yet another hearing

1:08

to figure this all out. It took days.

1:11

Ronnie's lawyer, Michael Deutsch, brought in

1:13

over a dozen witnesses to testify about

1:15

who Ronnie was and is now,

1:18

about the type of man that Ronnie has become in prison.

1:21

One of those witnesses was Ali Prewett,

1:23

a lawyer and Chicago activist. She

1:26

talked about Ronnie and the people he'd mentored

1:28

or inspired.

1:30

What really has stuck out to me over the years

1:32

is the positive impact he's left on

1:34

not only folks who have been incarcerated, but

1:37

folks who haven't. He has

1:39

this sort of positive influence

1:42

and inspiring story and is just

1:44

such a motivator for so many people, for

1:47

his family, for his friends.

1:49

The State of Illinois had lawyers there arguing

1:52

the other side, it's.

1:54

Always difficult in a post conviction

1:56

proceeding to take what we know today

1:58

and apply it to a trial

2:01

proceeding that happened years.

2:03

And in this case, decades ago.

2:06

The circumstances of the crime, the facts

2:08

of the unknw line crime, those have all

2:10

been litigated, and as council said, we're

2:12

not here to relitigate the facts of

2:14

the case.

2:15

Basically, the state was saying, look,

2:18

we're not here for a new trial. We're only

2:20

here to determine if Ronnie Kerriskillo

2:22

should be re sentenced. Now,

2:25

Ronnie claimed that his sentence was unfair

2:27

and disproportionate to his crime, but

2:30

the state then argues, what really

2:32

matters here is that Ronnie has a shot

2:34

at release, and as long as he does

2:36

well, then the sentence is

2:38

fair.

2:39

And that is key to the decision and the key

2:42

to the analysis here because mister

2:44

Karraschio is eligible

2:47

for parole.

2:48

In other words, perhaps six hundred

2:50

years sounds like a long time, but

2:53

he's eligible for parole. So what's the

2:55

problem. And the judge basically

2:57

agrees. What does this mean for Ronnie?

3:00

Well, it means that he now has to place all

3:02

of his hopes on getting parole. There's

3:06

just one problem when it comes to the parole

3:08

board. It's it seems that he can't escape

3:10

the notoriety of his own story. Ronnie's

3:13

been in prison for nearly half

3:15

a century, and he's stuck in

3:17

a convoluted legal system, a

3:20

system that perhaps could be gained

3:22

by an operator like Bob Cooley, but

3:24

which was terrifying to a guy like Ronnie

3:27

who was trapped inside with no

3:29

fixer to call. And I

3:31

gotta tell you, at times, Ronnie's

3:34

story felt a bit like a Franz Kafka novel.

3:36

There's a guy and he's stuck trying

3:39

to find his way out of one darkened labyrinth

3:41

after another, and every time

3:43

it looks like there might be an exit, the

3:46

lights flicker out. I'm

4:11

Jake Halpern, and this is

4:13

deep cover mob Land.

4:47

Thank you for using Securius you

4:49

may start the conversation now.

4:52

This morning, Hey Ronnie, how are you?

4:55

WHOA Hey, we're all again.

4:57

Ronnie's been incarcerated since October

4:59

of nineteen seventy six. Back

5:01

then, Ronnie was a teenager and a gang

5:03

member. One night he got involved

5:06

in a fight. He says he shot off the gun

5:08

to break things up and accidentally

5:11

killed an off duty policeman, a

5:13

man named Terence Loftus. Ronnie

5:16

was sentenced to two hundred to six hundred

5:18

years in prison, and afterwards

5:21

he was sort of stunned. He says

5:23

it took him years to realize what the sentence

5:25

would really mean for him.

5:27

That's tak off and realize. Man.

5:30

He filed some early appeals that went

5:33

well nowhere.

5:34

That's my father. Don't buy no

5:36

more appeals, don't buy no more lawyers. I

5:38

go to the parole book. I'm gonna see it and I shot

5:41

this type of far away there's no attention in it, and

5:43

I'll make parole.

5:45

Parole. That was Ronnie's

5:47

big hope. Yeah. Sure, maybe

5:49

he'd gotten slammed on his sentencing, but

5:51

with good behavior, he hoped he'd get

5:53

out on parole. So he gradually

5:56

turned his life around in prison, he

5:58

renounced his gang membership, He learned

6:00

a number of trades, got his ged,

6:03

found religion, became a mentor, he

6:05

says, in so many ways, he became

6:07

a different person. And he figured

6:09

the parole board would see this, that

6:12

they'd review the facts of his case and

6:15

release him.

6:16

How many times have you been before a parole

6:18

board?

6:19

I think thirty five times. At

6:21

least thirty five times.

6:23

Over thirty times Ronnie's gone

6:25

before the parole board. That's almost once

6:27

a year. It's kind of like going to the Super

6:30

Bowl annually and losing every

6:32

single time. Ronnie

6:34

just keeps getting told Nope, you're

6:37

not getting out. Even so each

6:39

year or so, when Ronnie comes up for parole,

6:42

he keeps trying, keeps providing

6:44

evidence of his rehabilitation, and

6:46

talks about how far he's come.

6:49

My life has transformed so much

6:51

from what I came as a youth. I

6:53

was a poor student. I was not a bright

6:56

educational book wise, not that I

6:58

got my GZI started going to college.

7:00

I have six seven different trades.

7:03

While behind bars, He's worked as

7:05

an electrician, a welder, a

7:07

locksmith, a pipe bender, and

7:09

a washer dryer repair man. He's

7:12

also trained to become a typist and a paralegal.

7:14

He's mentored fellow inmates, giving them

7:16

legal advice. He's coached the prisons

7:19

baseball team and organized soccer tournaments

7:21

for his jailmates. He's a pastor,

7:23

and he's even written a Bible study workbook

7:25

called Covenant with Abraham.

7:28

Ronnie is not allowed to attend parole hearings

7:31

in person, but his supporters

7:33

are and they do. They show

7:35

up and vouch.

7:36

For him all different times,

7:38

black, white, Latin, whatever, racist,

7:40

different, ex gang members, different, and

7:42

all of them write letters that I impacted

7:44

their life. And I've been coaching them in Christianity

7:46

for long and saying, oh, you live your life well, healthy,

7:48

motherical, health, your family, and this is all I do for

7:51

my whole forty six years.

7:53

Over the years, Ronnie has won over a number

7:56

of supporters, including religious leaders,

7:58

an Alderman, a US congressman,

8:01

even one of the prosecutors who originally brought

8:03

the case against him. That prosecutor,

8:06

Thomas Breen, noted that Ronnie's

8:08

years of menuring showed him to be a

8:10

model for other inmates. Breen

8:12

went so far as to compare Ronnie to the police

8:15

officer he killed He said that Ronnie

8:17

had quote many of the generous

8:19

characteristics of a caring person,

8:22

not unlike Terry Loftus. Members

8:26

of the media have also written about Ronnie's

8:28

story, tracking his bid for freedom.

8:32

All of this seems like it might tip the

8:34

scales in Ronnie's favor, right, the

8:36

only problem being the parole

8:38

board itself. It's known in

8:40

Illinois as the Prisoner Review Board.

8:43

Now in theory, it's a neutral body

8:45

that can reach its own independent verdict.

8:48

Its members are appointed by the governor. Its

8:50

ranks include former parole officers,

8:53

prosecutors, social workers, cops,

8:55

and politicians. The board

8:57

operates with virtually no oversight, and

8:59

its decisions are not reviewable in

9:02

court. Jorge Montes

9:04

sat on that parole board for sixteen

9:06

years.

9:07

I was a law and order

9:10

and conservative Republican, and

9:13

I was going to do what

9:15

all conservative people should do, is keep

9:17

them all in and not let

9:19

anybody out. That's what I set out to

9:21

do.

9:22

Jorge was a former prosecutor, and

9:24

he was tough. He wasn't inclined

9:26

to let many guys out. And

9:28

then one day this one

9:31

inmate comes up for parole. Jorge

9:33

says, this inmate had a very strong case

9:35

for being released, but Porge

9:38

still voted no. He said he

9:40

did it almost automatically, like

9:42

that's just what he was supposed to do. And

9:45

then something kind of odd

9:47

happened.

9:48

The very conservative Republican

9:50

chairman told me, mister Montez,

9:53

is there something we're missing here? I said,

9:55

well, why would that be. You're

9:58

voting to deny parole for what appears

10:00

to be a pretty perfect candidate for

10:02

a parole. I said, in that case,

10:04

I withdraw my emotion and I would

10:06

move that we parole, I mean we did.

10:09

It was almost like on some level,

10:11

Jorge was looking for permission to

10:13

show leniency, to say, you

10:15

know what, Yeah, this guy

10:18

does deserve a second chance. Let him

10:20

out.

10:21

And that started my journey on these

10:23

issues. So increasingly

10:26

I began to scrutinize cases, to

10:28

really consider where there's somebody had

10:31

changed their lives and that

10:33

warranted a second look, a

10:36

second chance. And increasingly

10:39

I began to find that a lot of these people were

10:41

really redeemable, and

10:43

my votes started to reflect that.

10:46

All of that being said, when Jorge first

10:48

heard Ronnie's case for parole, he

10:50

says he wasn't persuaded, not

10:53

at first anyhow, especially

10:55

given the fact that Ronnie had killed a police

10:57

officer. Jorge says that he voted against

10:59

Ronnie a few times. At

11:02

these hearings, the inmates are not allowed

11:04

to show up and speak for themselves. Instead,

11:07

one member of the parole board speaks

11:09

with the inmate and then presents their

11:11

case, almost like a lawyer,

11:13

but not really because the presenters they

11:16

may have their own agenda and they might

11:18

not advocate for that inmate at all.

11:21

So maybe you're starting to get what I'm talking about

11:23

when I say this whole process at

11:25

times feels like something that Franz

11:27

Kafka cooked up. Anyway,

11:31

one day, Ronnie is up for parole yet

11:33

again. Jorge is still not convinced

11:36

that Ronnie should be set free, and

11:38

on this occasion, Ronnie's presenter

11:40

is well, I'll just let Jorge

11:42

explain.

11:43

There was a gentleman on the board named

11:45

Dick Doria, and Dick Doria

11:48

was a sheriff from Tupeach County. Formerly

11:51

the sheriff a hard conserve,

11:53

ultra conservative.

11:55

So bad news for Ronnie, right, But

11:57

wait, because Dick Doria,

12:00

the conservative former sheriff, when

12:02

he made his presentation, he said

12:04

something that really surprised.

12:06

Orge, and Dick

12:08

said that it was impossible,

12:10

in his professional opinion, that

12:14

Ronnie would have killed this officer purposely

12:17

intentionally. Impossible

12:19

the kind of weapon he used, and Monster Doria

12:21

I knew all about ballistics and

12:24

weapons and calibers, and he

12:26

made a wonderful presentation. He said,

12:28

I'm not well. I'm voting to release

12:30

this man because I think he did

12:32

not intentionally kill the police officer.

12:35

According to Jorge, Dick Doria said

12:37

that he looked at the evidence, the distances,

12:40

the ballistics and the like, and determined

12:43

it didn't add up. It didn't make

12:45

sense that Ronnie had killed this cop intentionally,

12:49

and this really got Jorge thinking critically

12:52

about Ronnie's whole case, about Ronnie's

12:54

intentions, his efforts to redeem himself,

12:57

and even about the original sentence back

12:59

in the nineteen seventies from Judge Wilson,

13:01

and whether it had been fair. In

13:04

fact, Jorge says he came to feel

13:06

that Ronnie's sentence of up to six hundred

13:08

years did seem a bit fishy

13:11

coming on the heels of the Harry at Lamand trial,

13:13

and that this might be an instance of

13:15

camouflage bias.

13:17

Well It makes sense to me that that a judge

13:20

would behave this way and take it

13:22

out on poor cas because

13:25

he had just given this sniper

13:28

who was well known in the community for

13:30

being a mafioso. He gives

13:33

them an out, he gives them, he gives them

13:35

a past, and then of course he's got

13:37

to cover his tracks by then, uh

13:40

overreacting on the man.

13:42

I thought that was an excellent arguments, and

13:44

I believe.

13:45

That we'll

13:47

be right back throughout

14:02

this process. Ronnie has also faced

14:04

another big challenge. The Chicago

14:06

Police Department and the union representing

14:08

its officers do not want

14:11

him to get parole, so much so that

14:13

they have physically showed up at his parole hearings.

14:16

Jorge remembers this. He says, they

14:18

made quite an impression.

14:20

The conference room was very tight, and

14:23

Chicago would send busloads of police

14:26

officers and they would all crowd

14:28

in to the conference room that just fit

14:30

the conference table, and there were

14:32

all there are thirty cops standing

14:34

around us, and they

14:36

were looking over our shoulder and

14:38

literally and as we're casting votes.

14:40

It was very intimidating and very

14:43

difficult.

14:43

I've seen a picture of this scene

14:45

and I got to describe it to you.

14:48

You can see the Parole board members sitting

14:50

at a table, and then like

14:52

a foot behind them is a whole

14:54

crowd of uniformed officers literally

14:57

hovering over them.

15:00

With time, Jorge came to realize

15:02

that Ronnie might not ever receive

15:04

enough votes for parole. In fact, at

15:06

one point he even wrote an affid David

15:08

on Ronnie's behalf. In that Affidavid,

15:11

he said that despite Ronnie's quote

15:14

excellent prison record and his strong

15:16

family and community support, that

15:18

he was repeatedly denied parole because

15:21

quote, the victim was a Chicago

15:23

police officer. Montez

15:25

concluded that quote there are several

15:28

members of the board then and now

15:30

who will never vote for parole when

15:32

the victim is a police officer. For

15:36

Ronnie, none of this is encouraging.

15:39

You know, the constitution says, we have votes and

15:41

we don't care how most you GOTU there. We don't care about

15:44

none of it. You kill the police officers and they blaintly

15:46

say, I'm not gonna vote for a police

15:48

killers. So you know, how

15:51

can I have them for mercy when they're telling

15:53

me before the hearing's

15:55

even done. So I mean, if I bring anybody

15:57

in there to testify, I'll hope or anything

15:59

like that. We don't want to hear that.

16:02

And this creates a real logistical

16:04

challenge for Ronnie. Can he get

16:06

the votes he needs to be released. Each

16:09

time Ronnie is up for parole, the board

16:11

is different. Old members cycle out,

16:13

new members cycle in, and

16:16

he's come close a few times. Each

16:18

one of these moments is seered

16:20

into his memory, moments when it

16:22

seemed like maybe the door was about to

16:24

swing open for him. In Justice

16:27

Watch, a Chicago based nonprofit

16:29

newsroom, has done some excellent reporting

16:31

on Ronnie's bid for parole. They

16:34

found that in the years between two thousand

16:36

and five and two thousand and eight, Ronnie

16:38

had a series of parole hearings and

16:40

each year he came within one

16:43

vote of winning his freedom. Jorge

16:45

can still remember these votes, how excitement

16:48

would build as the board members cast their votes

16:50

one at a time.

16:52

For those of us that were favorable

16:54

to his release, it builds

16:57

up a lot of momentum and expectation.

17:00

And there's one, there's two, there's

17:03

three. Oh, we're getting closed. I think

17:05

this is it. He's gonna go home. And

17:07

then we get to know. So

17:10

that's it's very

17:12

tense.

17:14

In two thousand and eight, Ronnie

17:16

actually won a majority of votes from the board,

17:19

six yeses and five no's. That's

17:21

a win, right, Nope, The

17:24

Illinois Prisoner Review Board requires

17:26

that he get a majority of all members,

17:29

not just those in attendance, and that day

17:31

there were two no shows and only thirteen

17:34

members on the board at the time, so his

17:36

six vote majority it didn't

17:38

count. Jorge was the chairman

17:40

of the parole Board at this point, and

17:42

he says, to come this close and

17:45

to fall short, it was really hard

17:47

for him personally.

17:49

You feel deflated and you feel

17:52

demoralized because if

17:54

you really believe in this and you work

17:57

his work and you try to keep work

17:59

away from home, but if

18:01

you believe that it's the right thing

18:03

to do, and that we're

18:06

keeping somebody locked up, a human being

18:08

locked up, that in the

18:10

you're you're sympathizing with the family

18:13

and you see all the tears and you see people

18:16

leaving devastated. Yeah,

18:18

itated, it impacts you.

18:20

Ronnie wasn't there, but he

18:22

soon got the news.

18:24

According to my law, I was supposed

18:26

to be granted parole. I made the majority

18:28

of the vote for me.

18:30

Like, what's that my going before the parole board thirty

18:32

five times and getting rejected

18:35

every time.

18:37

I never go in front of the whole committee. I see

18:39

one person. One person comes and

18:41

they call him my hearing officer. After that, talk

18:44

to nobody but this one person. I'm

18:46

up against an invisible body that I never see.

18:50

In twenty twenty, Ronnie was

18:52

up for parole once again, and the event

18:54

attracted attention from the local press.

18:58

WDN investigates comp killers going

19:00

free.

19:00

Now another officer's murderer is appealing

19:03

to the Illinois Prisoner Review Board for

19:05

freedom.

19:05

This is a news report from WGN

19:08

in Chicago that aired in September of twenty

19:10

twenty, a few weeks before Ronnie was set

19:12

to appear before the parole board.

19:14

You might think that killing a cop would lead to an

19:16

automatic life sentence, but under old

19:19

sentencing rules, inmates are fighting themselves

19:21

eligible for release, and as we found,

19:24

it often lands in the lapse of deceased

19:26

officers' families to fight to

19:28

keep them locked up.

19:30

The family members of the victim often

19:32

come to these hearings. It's a tortured

19:34

process. They talk about how hard

19:36

it's been for them and how they hope that the killer

19:39

will not be allowed to just walk away. In

19:41

the WGN news story about Ronnie,

19:44

a cousin spoke for the Loftis family.

19:47

We are aging and we need

19:49

to speak for him.

19:50

We need to speak for his parents and for

19:52

his brother, and they are all

19:55

gone.

19:56

I did read an interview with Loftus's brother

19:58

before he passed away. He told the

20:00

Chicago Sun Times that the shooting

20:03

devastated the family, saying, quote,

20:05

our mother was never the same. After that, the

20:09

Fraternal Order of Police declined my requests

20:11

for an interview, and the Chicago Police

20:13

Department didn't respond to my requests

20:16

for comment. But I did manage

20:18

to find a web page commemorating Terence

20:20

Loftus. A number of his friends

20:22

and fellow police officers had posted

20:25

messages here. One

20:28

read, I remember

20:30

the night he was killed. He was showing

20:32

me his new green leather jacket in the tactical

20:34

office. A few hours later

20:36

he was shot. I remember seeing

20:39

him later at the hospital with a breathing

20:41

tube in his mouth and the sounds of the air

20:43

machine pumping in a steady rhythm.

20:46

That vision to this day has haunted

20:48

me and will until the day I die.

20:51

Unlike the reprobate that killed him. Terry

20:54

was an honorable and exceptional

20:56

person. Some of the posts

20:58

were written directly to Terry, like

21:00

letters sent to him in the beyond. One

21:03

of those read quote, once

21:05

again, parole has been denied for the individual

21:08

that took your life and cause so much

21:10

pain to those that love you. This

21:12

time, the parole board said, he has to

21:14

wait three years to be heard again. When

21:17

that time comes, your brother, officers

21:19

will be there again like they have been in

21:21

the past, to stop this individual

21:24

from getting out of prison. You

21:26

have not been forgotten. Reading

21:31

these posts, it was heartbreaking,

21:34

and I could see how, even all these years

21:36

later, his friends and family would

21:38

still be simmering with anguish and rage

21:41

at the tragedy of it all. It

21:43

also seemed almost cruel

21:46

that year after year Loftus's

21:48

friends and family members would be expected

21:50

to attend these parole hearings and

21:52

share these kinds of sentiments that they'd

21:54

have to relive their trauma again and

21:57

again. I

21:59

also have to wonder what Terence Loftus

22:02

himself would say about all of this. I

22:04

wonder how he would want to be remembered, what

22:07

he would want his legacy to be,

22:09

because after all. This was

22:11

a man whose defining act was

22:14

one of courage and decency. His

22:16

biggest mistake, the thing that got him

22:18

killed, was his inclination to help

22:21

to step into the fray when he absolutely

22:23

didn't have to. For

22:31

Ronnie, the whole situation is

22:33

confounding. He accepts his

22:35

responsibility for the death of Officer Loftus,

22:38

he knows he's the one who pulled the trigger, and

22:40

he says that he's done everything in his power

22:42

to redeem himself. But as far

22:44

as the justice system is concerned, there

22:47

appears to be no real path

22:49

forward.

22:50

I'm not supposed to mature and

22:52

be able to have the constitutional

22:55

right of being restored to useful citizenship. Judge

22:58

didn't leave me no room for it. He just wasted

23:01

me.

23:01

I'm wondering how in the face of

23:04

being rejected for parole for thirty

23:07

five times and being in is

23:09

in for almost half a century, Like,

23:11

how do you keep that faith in that hope lives

23:15

well?

23:16

I studied who I was a day. I stay

23:18

in the scripture that I pray every day. I pray

23:20

with other people. Oh

23:22

it's heartbreaking,

23:26

especially when you lose family members down the

23:28

line and they keep your faith so

23:31

there's a scripture in there where it says what is

23:34

Genesis fifty twenty, where what

23:36

man means means for evil

23:39

that God means for good? And in the

23:41

Bible, God is is it just? God

23:43

is just all justice.

23:45

This whole exchange oddly reminded

23:47

me of something that Bob Cooley once said

23:49

to me. He said that in his mind,

23:52

the world of justice was divided into man's

23:54

law and God's law, and

23:57

then he put little faith in Man's law, I

23:59

think because he saw it as arbitrary and

24:01

fundamentally corrupt. But

24:03

God's law, on the other hand, was pure

24:06

and transcendent, and according

24:08

to Bob, it's had a meaning for him.

24:11

And I kind of understood this. In

24:13

a city like Chicago, where corruption

24:16

and politics and gang violence

24:18

and lingering class resentments all

24:21

skewed the law of man, he

24:23

almost had to grasp for something higher,

24:26

hope that true justice might exist

24:28

elsewhere, in some better realm.

24:31

And it was here that Ronnie's faith resided.

24:34

Though I wondered if he thought

24:36

that this faith alone would actually

24:38

get him past that parole board.

24:41

What do you think your chances of being released

24:43

are.

24:44

I'm going to release I have faith in God,

24:47

I pray every day. Did he put

24:50

on the hearts of the just people, you

24:52

know, to see the scenario, and they

24:56

don't address the politics of it and

24:59

give the judgment by law. I'm

25:01

not gonna surrender myself all wanna die

25:03

here, I'm not gonna. I'm not gonna go for it. I'm not.

25:05

I'm not living that way.

25:07

If you were released tomorrow,

25:09

what's the first thing you would do?

25:12

I was sit in the backyard basically looking

25:14

up to see the sky. I see the stars

25:17

at night, and the threat

25:19

is over. So I came from a gang

25:21

life. That threat never goes away.

25:24

So the first thing I want to do is just go and

25:26

just like, oh man, you know

25:28

it's over, and then go live the life

25:30

from there. I got so much time left to live.

25:33

Basically, go be a help the humanity's

25:36

supposed to do in the first place, be a giver. I was

25:38

a taker as a kid. I can't take back

25:40

my criminal activity is akin. I can't

25:42

take back, can't put the bullets back, and I

25:45

can't do any of that. Not going to go forward.

25:50

This summer, Ronnie was moved to a new facility,

25:53

a re entry center. Ronnie's

25:55

attorney petitioned to have him move there. He's

25:58

there to learn some basic life skills like

26:00

how to write a resume and how to manage finances,

26:03

skills that he would need if

26:06

he ever makes parole. Ronnie

26:08

is now sick four years old. He'll

26:10

be up for parole again in November

26:13

of twenty twenty two.

26:29

This episode of deep Cover was produced by

26:31

Amy Gaines and edited by

26:34

Karen Chakerji. Our managing

26:36

producers Jacob Smith. Original

26:38

music and our theme was composed by

26:40

Luis Gara, mastering

26:43

by Jake Gorski. Mia

26:45

Label is our executive producer. Additional

26:48

thanks to Jesse de Bartolomeo and

26:50

Emily Horner, formerly of Injustice

26:53

Watch and now at the Chicago Tribune

26:55

for her reporting on Ronnie's case. I'm

27:00

Jake Halpern. Deep

27:08

Cover is a production of Pushkin Industries.

27:10

For ad free listening and early access

27:13

to upcoming seasons of deep Cover, consider

27:15

becoming a Pushkin Plus subscriber. You

27:18

can find Pushkin Plus on the deep Cover

27:20

show page on Apple Podcasts, or

27:23

at pushkin dot Fm.