0:00

Hey friends and welcome back to Deep Dive,

0:02

the podcast where I have the immense pleasure

0:04

of sitting down with authors and experts and

0:06

entrepreneurs and other inspiring people so that we

0:08

can learn from them to help build lives

0:10

that we love. Today we have got a

0:12

very special episode we're going to be hearing

0:14

from a group of relationship experts about how

0:16

you can find love and build healthy relationships.

0:18

So whether you're totally new to the world

0:20

of dating or you're looking to strengthen a

0:22

long-term existing relationship, this episode is a bit

0:24

of a rundown from some of the world's

0:26

leading experts about everything you need to know.

0:29

First up we have Matthew Hussey and Dr.

0:31

Logan Urie. Matthew is a super popular dating

0:33

coach who has loads of experience in helping

0:35

people find love and Dr. Logan is a

0:37

behavioural scientist and the author of the fantastic

0:39

book How to Not Die Alone. They're going

0:41

to share their tips and tricks for successful

0:43

dates and they'll explain why attraction is not

0:45

the only thing you need to consider when

0:47

looking for a partner. Then Drs. John and

0:49

Julie Gottman and Hannah Witton will talk about

0:51

making sure your relationship is as happy as

0:53

possible. The Gottman's award-renowned relationship experts have studied

0:55

the science of long-term relationships and Hannah Witton

0:58

is a content creator who specialises in sex

1:00

education. They're here with practical advice

1:02

on how to handle disagreements and suggestions about

1:04

how to run a relationship review system, which

1:06

is what I do with my partner, to

1:08

make sure that you and your partner are

1:10

on the right track. And finally, Francesca Spector,

1:12

author of the book Alone-ment, will explain why

1:14

it's still super important to have alone time

1:16

and take care of yourself when you're in

1:18

a relationship. So let's get into it. I

1:21

talk about there

1:25

being a kind of a formula

1:27

and I don't mean this crudely, I just

1:29

mean there are certain components to

1:31

deep and lasting attraction. You

1:35

have chemistry, perceived

1:41

value, perceived

1:43

challenge and

1:45

connection. The

1:47

reason I like this model is

1:49

because when you

1:53

look at this, you can usually see,

1:55

you can sort of

1:57

self-diagnose where something

1:59

may be. going wrong. Chemistry

2:04

is interesting because there's a

2:06

certain intangible

2:08

there and an unknown there and we certainly

2:11

can't control all of it but

2:13

we can control some of it. The way

2:15

that we look, how well we take care

2:17

of ourselves, the way we move importantly

2:20

is a big factor in chemistry which

2:23

is why you can sometimes see someone in photos and

2:25

think they're really attractive and then you meet them in

2:27

real life and you kind of go, oh weird. I

2:31

don't feel the same way. It's also why you can get back

2:33

from a date and say, oh my

2:35

God I just had this amazing date with this

2:37

incredibly hot person and if you show pictures

2:39

of that person to your friends they're like, okay,

2:43

I guess. Because you

2:46

were there, you saw how they

2:48

move, how they smile, how they gesture,

2:51

how they micro expressions. So there's

2:53

certainly things we can do to

2:56

affect chemistry and obviously you

2:58

can create tension too which is a

3:00

big factor in chemistry. Then there's

3:02

perceived value and perceived value is all these

3:05

things that we are and do that bring

3:07

value to the table. It might

3:09

be our personality, it might

3:11

be the things that we're good at

3:14

in life, it might be our life, the

3:16

life that we've built. It

3:18

can sometimes be our friends and family. Sometimes you

3:20

meet someone's friends and family and you go, whoa,

3:22

this is, what a life this is

3:24

to come into. They have an amazing group of

3:26

people around them, so much love, so much. So

3:29

there's a lot of ways for perceived

3:32

value to manifest itself. Then

3:34

there's perceived challenge and

3:37

the interesting thing about perceived

3:40

value is it goes down regardless of

3:42

how many things are in that category

3:46

if there's no perceived challenge. Perceived

3:49

challenge is not the

3:52

kind of, I don't know, a typical

3:55

way of thinking about it I guess would be hard to get.

3:57

That's A

3:59

cheap... Way to create challenge.

4:01

Because the problem with hard to get his. You

4:04

can't keep up forever. The. Moment

4:06

you. Are got know.

4:09

A someone's if you traction was built

4:11

around the getting then you can't sustain

4:14

it. But. Is.

4:17

It that the the real view for sustainable

4:19

way to create challenge is for their to

4:21

be. A see value

4:23

to have a price. They

4:26

would you miss. Didn't

4:28

do you value doesn't come for free.

4:30

Your value is something that has to

4:32

be earned. By the

4:35

someone showing up in the why, you're prepared

4:37

to show up. By. Someone being

4:39

prepared to make the kind of sacrifices you're

4:41

prepared to make for someone. By

4:44

someone giving to you on a level that

4:46

you're willing to give respecting you want to

4:48

leveled it that you respect them. I'm. And

4:51

also not giving someone too much credit

4:53

to quickly. That's

4:56

a big problem when we come from a

4:58

needy place. When we come from a place

5:00

of insecurity, we stopped giving people credit they

5:02

don't deserve yet. I

5:05

just met them. I start the most

5:07

amazing date with the most amazing person.

5:09

Oh my god They're incredible! Based

5:13

on law. Based

5:17

on out for on what basis? what

5:19

information could you have possibly go. On.

5:22

One date, The

5:24

enables you to say this. You

5:28

has been seduced by a kind of

5:30

charm of charisma. Maybe yes, the fight

5:32

the you do something really fun on

5:34

the date. The fact of I made

5:37

you laugh a lot. The fact that

5:39

they told stories about their past that

5:41

made them reliable sympathetic course seem really

5:43

it will authentic. Oh that's great. I'm

5:45

not be. I'm not saying be inherently

5:47

suspicious, I'm saying. You.

5:49

Don't know if. You.

5:52

Don't know. so. On.

5:54

What basis are you giving them

5:56

all of this value already based

5:59

on projection? And

6:01

based on insecurity, this immediate putting

6:03

them on a pedestal, I'm putting

6:05

yourself down here. And when someone

6:07

smells that. They

6:10

don't see any cool anymore. And

6:13

that's. That's why I mean

6:15

when I say challenge, I don't mean

6:17

artificially constructing. Games.

6:19

Or hoops for people to jump through. I

6:22

mean that the. The criteria you

6:24

have someone has to be real here.

6:27

As to be real. Like. It's.

6:30

You. And I met to days for first

6:32

time. Really enjoying our

6:35

conversation. Hope you are to

6:37

get open. Hope we don't

6:39

know each other yet as

6:41

friends you don't know if

6:43

I'd be reliable. If you

6:45

needed something, you don't know if I would

6:47

show up to support you. If something went

6:49

wrong in your life, you don't know if

6:51

you don't know any of that. So.

6:55

You. Know it would be dangerous to

6:58

go away and make it an assessment

7:00

on how to write. As a friend

7:02

I would be. Based

7:04

on this exchange it what what you

7:07

would hope in an organic situation is

7:09

that you and I ago. This

7:12

was really really fun. We got on really

7:14

well. This is a great conversation I would

7:16

like to get to know this guy. Met

7:18

on that would be like be really cool

7:20

if we could hang out outside of the

7:22

puck. But.

7:25

It's not. Have. To be friends

7:27

with was as a you know, like

7:29

we have with I asked him because

7:32

he he's a he's an amazing you

7:34

know like here as that now that

7:36

projects that's dangerous because I'm basing that

7:38

on the fact that you're clearly outwardly

7:40

a very impressive human and what you've

7:42

achieved, what you've done is very impressive

7:44

and you seem to have had a

7:46

really amazing kind of impact on a

7:48

lot of people. And those are all

7:51

amazing things. Those are amazing things in

7:53

their own right. Snow

7:55

about devaluing those. But.

7:58

I have no idea. hear what

8:01

your value would be as a friend

8:04

until we try being friends.

8:08

And the mistake people make in

8:10

dating commonly is they

8:12

look at someone's stats.

8:16

How charming were they? How charismatic were

8:18

they? How successful are they? Where

8:22

are they in their life? What kind

8:24

of person do they seem to be? But

8:26

none of that exists in relation to

8:28

you. That's

8:32

all just you admiring what

8:34

this person has or is. But

8:37

none of it says this person's going to be a great

8:39

boyfriend or a great girlfriend. None

8:41

of it says they're going to be loyal. None

8:43

of it says they're going to be reliable. None of

8:45

it says they're going to be a great teammate. All

8:47

it says is this person seems

8:49

on these metrics to

8:52

be attractive. In any

8:54

relationship, you have to go through four

8:57

stages. One

9:01

is admiration. That's just

9:03

where I can see someone and admire them from

9:06

either up close or far. This person's pretty

9:09

impressive and attractive. Not

9:12

very important. In the stages, not important.

9:15

Necessary, but not important.

9:19

When there's a connection

9:22

or chemistry, that's the next stage

9:24

of do we feel connected to

9:27

each other and is there a

9:29

kind of chemistry? Now

9:31

it's slightly more important because now it

9:34

becomes mutual. Now it's

9:36

not just me admiring you. It's oh, there's

9:38

something between us. Not

9:42

important because necessary,

9:46

but not important. How many people

9:48

have ruined their lives over the fact that they had chemistry

9:50

with someone, even when that

9:52

person was a terrible partner, a

9:55

terrible person to base their decisions

9:57

on? stage

10:00

is commitment.

10:04

Okay, I admire you, we have

10:06

mutual chemistry and connection, and

10:08

we're both actually saying yes to each other. I

10:11

deal with people every day where they have this

10:13

stage, but that person

10:15

isn't saying yes. They're saying,

10:17

yeah, I'd like to see you this Friday, 11 o'clock.

10:22

But they're not saying yes to an actual relationship.

10:25

So you need commitment to go

10:28

to the next stage of importance. But many

10:30

people are treating something like it has total

10:32

importance, even though they're only at the

10:34

second stage. So you need a yes,

10:36

you need commitment. Now, you

10:38

would say if you've got that, that's the most important thing

10:40

you can have. You've got someone you admire, you've got someone

10:42

you have a connection with in chemistry, and you've got someone

10:44

who is committed.

10:47

It would seem like that was everything. But

10:49

that kind of idea, is it

10:52

Virgil? Love conquers all? Love

10:54

does not conquer all. Two

10:57

people saying yes to each other doesn't doesn't

11:00

make for a long term relationship. You also

11:02

have to have the fourth stage of importance, which

11:04

is compatibility. Are

11:07

you actually compatible? Because if you're not, you

11:10

can say yes, I want to be with you.

11:12

Yes, I'm committed. But that

11:15

lack of compatibility will show up in

11:17

ways that will make both of you

11:19

miserable. Well, what do you mean by

11:21

compatibility? It could be anything. It could be my

11:25

idea of a good time is staying home,

11:27

watching movies, and yours is constantly traveling around

11:29

the world. It

11:31

could be your idea of a good time is going

11:33

out and drinking and doing drugs. And I don't

11:37

want to live that life. And we've

11:39

both said yes to each other. But

11:43

they, you know, our idea of what is a

11:45

good life is completely different. Or

11:47

our idea of loyalty is completely different. Your

11:49

idea of loyalty is that I don't have

11:51

sex with anyone. My idea

11:53

of loyalty is that you don't emotionally cheat

11:55

on me in the

11:57

texts you send. Yeah, you know that

12:00

And we both said yes

12:02

to each other. We have admiration,

12:04

connection, commitment, and

12:07

yet I am miserable because

12:10

of what your definition of loyalty is. So

12:13

compatibility is do we both want to live

12:15

the same kind of life and do our

12:18

values line up? And do

12:20

we both have the same idea? Two people

12:22

can say I value kindness, but we can

12:24

have very different standards for

12:26

what kindness actually means. So

12:30

without that stage, so many things go wrong.

12:35

What I mean to say with all of this is

12:37

that we

12:40

lose our value in dating

12:44

when we stop

12:47

paying attention to

12:49

the appropriate level of importance at different

12:51

stages. If

12:53

you take stage two,

12:56

I found

12:58

someone I have a connection with. As

13:00

the be all end all and the thing that you martyr

13:04

yourself in service of, you lose

13:06

all your value. You

13:09

are now the person who spends a lifetime

13:12

accepting really poor treatment from someone

13:15

because every time you see them,

13:17

it's amazing. You don't

13:19

understand when we're together, it's so

13:21

good. It's so incredible. They're so there

13:23

for me. The sex

13:25

is amazing. The chemistry is amazing. We

13:27

have such amazing conversations. What's

13:31

the problem? I haven't heard from them in two weeks. But

13:35

Matt, you don't understand the connection is incredible. You

13:37

don't know. Like this, this is really important to

13:39

me. Why?

13:41

Why? Because you

13:44

have miscalculated the value of stage two.

13:47

And when you do that, you

13:49

lose your value because someone realizes

13:51

your value, what you're willing to

13:53

give, has no price. It's

13:56

free. It does not need to be

13:58

earned. So you're perceived challenge. when

14:01

there's no challenge drops,

14:03

and when there's no challenge to you, when

14:05

someone realizes your value has no price, then

14:08

you lose respect. One

14:10

of the things you talk about in the book is

14:12

the idea of prom date

14:14

versus life partner. And if

14:16

I kind of paraphrase, there are different things that we're

14:18

looking for in a prom date where maybe we're focused

14:21

on how attractive are they and how adventurous and risky

14:23

and interesting do they seem. Whereas there

14:25

are different qualities that we look for in

14:27

a life partner, which is more like in

14:29

growth mindset, emotional maturity, the ability to fight

14:31

well and communicate clearly, etc. When

14:37

it comes to first and second dates, how

14:39

would you go about sussing out the

14:41

more deeper qualities where

14:44

in the context of a date where everyone is

14:47

kind of putting on their best behavior, you would

14:49

think? Great. So yes, I love

14:51

this concept, and I think that it's really important

14:53

in people's personal development to make that shift from

14:55

the prom date to the life partner. And unfortunately,

14:57

some people just think, oh, that happens with time.

14:59

But no, I think you really have to make

15:01

a concerted effort to say like, yeah, that guy's

15:03

really hot and it'd be fun to sleep with

15:06

him. But he's actually not that

15:08

reliable. I don't know if he'll show up

15:10

when he says he will. I'm constantly worried

15:12

about him letting me down. And

15:14

actually what I'm experiencing isn't chemistry, it's anxiety.

15:17

And so that's the prom date. And now

15:19

I'm going to reject that person and move

15:21

towards the life partner. And so for anyone

15:23

listening or watching, I would say if

15:27

you consistently find yourself with prom dates, I

15:29

want you to focus on the life partner.

15:31

In terms of how to find these

15:34

people early on, I think you can

15:36

do it as early as the profile,

15:38

the messaging, and first dates. And it's

15:40

really about coming up with some questions

15:43

that help you elicit certain responses. And

15:45

so something about the growth mindset is

15:48

People with a growth mindset feel like they

15:51

can try new skills safely. And Even if

15:53

they're bad at them, that's totally fine because

15:55

life is about getting better as opposed to

15:57

somebody with a fixed mindset who says you're

15:59

born with the the skills and you can

16:02

improve them. So a question I've been encouraging

16:04

people to ask over the last two years.

16:06

While the been and a pandemic is something

16:08

like. What something that

16:10

you were bad at that you've gotten

16:12

better at or have you invested any

16:14

time, especially during lockdown in working on

16:17

any skills. and you know you can

16:19

enter a that on that and it

16:21

sound more casual, but just understanding. Is

16:23

this the kind of person who says

16:25

i've a lot of alone time, i'm

16:27

gonna learn to speak Spanish Or did

16:29

they just spend more time playing video

16:31

games, right? Like, what is this person's

16:33

orientation toward growth in terms of loyalty?

16:35

A really important qualities you can actually

16:37

see. Leno do have friends from different

16:39

stages. Of your life or what is the

16:42

best gift you've ever given. There's chances were

16:44

you say this is the quality in the

16:46

person I'm looking for. This is the question

16:48

that strategically helps me understand if they have

16:50

that and then I am actually going to

16:52

listen to their answer and see how it

16:54

jibes with me and not to say well

16:56

actually other answers were terrible that they're so

16:58

hot and going to ignore and noted oh

17:01

that's a prom date Think they'll listen to

17:03

their answers and say is is the kind

17:05

of person that I wanna keep getting to

17:07

know or do I want to find someone

17:09

who's more. Aligned with the qualities I'm

17:11

looking for. A or whatever.

17:13

What of things that I I accidently did before

17:15

before I read the book It thoughts of. On.

17:19

This would do away this girl who I'm

17:21

i'm now like it quicker than relationship with

17:23

my left the still filled with say of

17:25

on a on a second day we went

17:27

to play Top Goals. Which. Has like

17:29

this cross between ten pin bowling and a goal

17:31

for drivers to driving range. Another both of them

17:33

played golf before as I'm assuming they paid you

17:35

will try to school thing is it was like.

17:38

I mean a month ago before but like many that

17:40

was given go to was totally up for it and

17:42

that was one of the things that really stood out

17:44

where was like she was totally cool with actually trying

17:46

out this new thing being okay with looking like a

17:48

bit of an idiot thing both was playing with for

17:50

the we know they before I'm and so I really

17:53

like to that as. Of. a

17:55

thing and then i read the growth mindset stuff in the book

17:57

i was like oh i kind of us that they could have

17:59

selected for the particular quality, which was kind of nice.

18:02

I love that story so much. I think there's so much

18:04

to that. First of all, you were brave in suggesting something

18:06

that you weren't good at. There might be somebody out there

18:09

who says, oh, I only take people on dates to things

18:11

I'm really good at so that I look good in a

18:13

certain light. What you were showing

18:15

is that you're fun and spontaneous and willing to try

18:17

new things and be bad at them. And she was

18:19

also willing to do that. So I think that's a

18:22

great idea. I

18:24

talked before about dating like a scientist. Part of

18:26

dating like a scientist is having a hypothesis, testing

18:29

it, and then looking at the data. And so

18:31

a big thing that people have been asking me

18:33

in the last year or so is, I want

18:35

to ask people if we can do a phone

18:38

call or a video date before we meet up,

18:40

but some people will be turned off by that.

18:43

I think using what you said,

18:45

hey, on a scale of this

18:47

is scary to I'm interested, how open

18:50

are you to having a phone call or a video call? That could

18:52

be a cool way of doing it. But I also

18:55

think just asking and seeing how the person responds

18:57

gives you a lot of data. So maybe somebody

18:59

says, a video call, what,

19:01

are you screening me for a job?

19:03

That's weird. No. Or

19:06

they say, I haven't done that before, but I'm open

19:08

to it. And so each moment is a chance to

19:10

see you're putting out some

19:13

sort of stimulus and you're seeing how they're

19:15

responding to it. And that gives you a

19:17

lot of information. And so do the bold

19:19

thing, ask the question and see if they

19:21

can roll with it. Or are they so

19:23

traditional and so tied to certain norms that

19:26

that freaks them out? Well, if you don't like

19:28

that, then that's maybe not the kind of person

19:30

you want to be with. Nice.

19:32

One of the things that you talk about is sort

19:35

of actively reflecting on a date when you get back

19:37

from it. And I wanted

19:39

to ask, like, to what extent, like, what are

19:41

the sorts of questions that we should be asking

19:43

when we get back from dates? And to what

19:45

extent is like a sort

19:48

of checklist approach to this a good idea? Because

19:50

we talk about things like growth mindset and emotional

19:52

maturity and ability to communicate. Is that

19:55

the sort of thing like, similar to how, like, if you're

19:57

hiring someone for a job, you want to have like a scorecard and you want to

19:59

be a part of it. be able to evaluate each candidate against the

20:01

call card, is this the sort of person who would be able to

20:03

do X? To what extent is that

20:05

like a decent approach when it comes to dating

20:07

and reflecting on dates afterwards? In

20:11

general, I think that having

20:13

a checklist is not helpful because often

20:15

what's on that checklist is the wrong

20:17

stuff. It's the height, income,

20:20

perceived success, do

20:23

we have the same hobbies? I think a

20:25

lot of times that checklist is based on

20:27

what we think matters in long-term relationships, which

20:29

the research shows us doesn't matter in long-term

20:31

relationships. So as a concept, I would say

20:34

throw out your checklist, be willing to date

20:36

someone who's not your type. It is very

20:38

possible that the person you end up with,

20:40

the person who makes it you happiest long-term

20:43

is not the person you thought you would

20:45

be with. That being said, in my book,

20:47

I offer this exercise called the post-date eight.

20:50

The post-date eight is based on

20:52

research and gratitude journals. So

20:54

there's amazing research from many people, including Sean

20:57

Acor of Harvard, that says if at the

20:59

end of the day you have to write

21:01

down three things that you're grateful for, your

21:03

brain will actually be looking for them throughout

21:05

the day. So if you're running to make

21:08

the bus and you make it, maybe five

21:10

minutes later you forget about it. But if

21:12

you know that at that night you have

21:14

to write it down, then you're going to

21:16

notice it more. So what we do at

21:19

the end impacts what we look for throughout.

21:21

So the post-date eight is the same idea.

21:23

I've taken what I believe and what the

21:25

research shows matters for evaluating a date. I've

21:27

turned it into these list of eight questions,

21:30

things like how did I feel in my

21:32

body around this person? Do I feel curious

21:34

about this person? What side of me did

21:37

this person bring out? And then throughout the

21:39

date you aren't looking at

21:41

their height and their job. You're paying attention

21:43

to those things. And at the end of

21:45

the date, you ask yourself the post-date eight

21:48

to decide do I want

21:50

to see this person again. And so it

21:52

is a version of a checklist, but it's

21:54

a checklist designed to help you focus on

21:56

what matters, not what doesn't. examples

22:00

of like what are some of the questions in the post-date

22:02

eight? Sure. So from

22:05

all the research that I've done and even the

22:07

coaching I've done since my book has come out,

22:09

this one of what side of me did this

22:12

person bring out is huge because it helps you

22:14

understand great on paper brings out a bad side

22:16

of me. I don't want to see them again.

22:18

That's a really helpful insight. Another

22:20

one is this idea of do

22:22

they energize me or de-energize me?

22:24

So there's an

22:26

activity called a penthouse in a basement

22:28

person. You think in your life, not

22:30

even in a romantic setting, who is

22:32

my penthouse person? Who when I'm with

22:34

them, do they bring my energy up?

22:36

Do I feel creative? Do I feel

22:38

inspired? So for you, who's your penthouse

22:40

person? He's my penthouse person. I

22:43

can think of a few university friends. I think my brother is

22:45

one of my penthouse people, which is why we kind of decided

22:47

to start a podcast together. My

22:49

current housemate is a penthouse person, definitely. I

22:53

love that. Yeah. So you have this

22:55

penthouse person, that's another helpful benchmark. And

22:57

you have a basement person, somebody who

22:59

makes you feel depressed, down, de-energized. And

23:01

so just asking this question, did I

23:03

feel more energized or less energized after

23:05

the date helps you understand where that

23:07

person falls and helps you get closer

23:09

to finding a penthouse person because of

23:11

course, the person you end up with

23:13

in a romantic relationship, you want them

23:15

to bring out that inspired, capable, creative

23:17

part of you. And

23:19

so it's really helping you understand

23:21

what stuff matters, what stuff to

23:24

pay attention to. And it ignores things

23:26

like, did I think they

23:28

have an impressive job? And do we have enough hobbies

23:31

and comments, stuff that people think matters,

23:33

but really doesn't. Nice. One

23:37

of the things that you talk about in the book is to

23:39

always go on the second date. What's

23:42

the deal with that? Yes.

23:45

So there's

23:47

a whole idea in behavioral science of

23:50

defaults. And so whatever we create as

23:52

a default sticks with us. So if

23:54

a hamburger place has

23:56

fries as a default, most people will stick

23:58

with that and get the fries. if a

24:00

hamburger place has a salad as a default, most people

24:02

will stick with that. In general, we stick with what

24:05

the default is and these rules of thumb. The

24:08

next thing is that in dating, I think

24:10

we put too much pressure on the first

24:12

date. Some of the best people I know

24:14

do not perform well on first

24:17

dates. They are awkward, they are not comfortable,

24:19

they are not good at small talk, they

24:21

are more introverted, this is harder for them.

24:23

But these are people who would make great

24:25

long-term partners. And so how can we actually

24:27

take the pressure off the first date and

24:29

say, first dates are almost a

24:31

warm-up round. Do I

24:33

like the sound of your voice? Am I attracted to you? Do

24:35

we have something to talk about? And I'm going to assume that

24:38

we're going to go on the second date,

24:40

pending that nothing crazy or terrible or unsafe

24:42

happens on the first date. And that way,

24:44

if you go in assuming you'll go on

24:46

the second date, you're giving people more of

24:48

a shot and it's easier to find those

24:51

diamond in a rough people who get better

24:53

over time. And one of the

24:55

things I talk about throughout the book is

24:57

this idea of fuck the spark, go after

24:59

the slow burn. The spark is somebody who

25:02

gives you instant chemistry, they make you feel

25:04

so attracted to them, like you've known them

25:06

for a million years. But honestly, a

25:08

lot of sparky people are charismatic,

25:10

but also narcissistic. They're focused on getting

25:12

you to fall for them, but they're

25:14

not actually asking themselves if they like

25:16

you. The spark is something that you

25:18

can chase that burns, that

25:21

burns out quickly. Instead, you want to find

25:23

this slow burn, someone who you like more

25:25

and more over time, your appreciation for them

25:27

grows. Those are really

25:29

the people to go after. And so some of my

25:31

friends who are in the best relationships that I admire,

25:33

they had terrible first dates, but either because I told

25:36

them to go on a second date or their mom

25:38

told them to go on a second date, they gave

25:40

that person more of a chance. And so you

25:43

will find some great people if

25:45

you make the second date the default.

25:48

Let's say someone's listening to this or watching this

25:50

and they're thinking, oh, damn, you know, I've definitely

25:52

got some of one or more of those in

25:54

my relationship. What are the

25:57

actions that someone can take if they recognize that

25:59

their relationship is sort of falling into one of these

26:01

four horsemen? Well, one of the best

26:03

things that you can do, we

26:06

call processing a regrettable

26:08

incident. Now, here's

26:10

what that means. This is

26:12

a particular intervention. When

26:14

you've had a really bad

26:17

fight where some of those

26:19

four horsemen have thundered through

26:21

the conversation, it's

26:25

really important to go back with

26:27

your partner and talk about

26:29

what happened in

26:32

the way that you communicated, what went wrong

26:34

in the way you communicated, and

26:37

then apologize for it. And

26:39

we have a five-step process for

26:41

this where each person

26:43

names their feelings that they

26:45

had during the regrettable incident.

26:48

Then they narrate their point

26:50

of view about what

26:53

transpired. And needless

26:55

to say, there's always two points

26:57

of view, and they

26:59

could feel like they're on opposite planets.

27:01

But they're both valid. They're both right.

27:04

So each one presents their point of

27:06

view. The other one summarizes what they

27:08

just heard the partner say and gives

27:10

a few words of validation. Like, I

27:12

get it. I can see how you

27:14

would have felt that way. And

27:17

then third, they talk about what

27:19

may have gotten triggered for them.

27:22

And triggers mean feelings that come

27:25

up for you during a fight

27:27

or regrettable incident that

27:29

are the same feelings you may

27:31

have had long before this

27:33

relationship, that may have

27:35

started in childhood or in a former

27:38

relationship. And

27:41

those can include things like

27:44

abandonment, rejection, feeling

27:46

judged, feeling

27:48

frightened, those kinds

27:50

of old feelings you've been carrying

27:52

inside you your whole life, perhaps.

27:55

So you talk about those triggers and

27:57

what stories go with those from you.

28:00

past, you share one of those. So

28:03

your partner really understands

28:05

better the scars that

28:07

you carry inside from

28:10

old experiences and

28:13

can try to avoid triggering

28:15

those. And then

28:17

the fifth step is to talk

28:19

about one thing you can do

28:21

differently and one thing your partner can do

28:24

differently to avoid something

28:26

like this from happening again.

28:29

That's how you process a regrettable incident.

28:35

How long afterwards would you recommend waiting

28:38

to process a regrettable incident? Are

28:40

we talking like the same day

28:42

or like a couple of days from

28:44

now? Like what sort of time period are we thinking? Well

28:48

it can be whenever

28:50

as long as it's not immediately

28:53

afterwards. So some people

28:56

won't know they're supposed to do this and

28:58

then they'll go back and process something 20 years

29:00

later, 15 years later. The

29:04

way that you know you need to

29:06

process it is that it still festers in

29:08

your mind. When you think about it,

29:11

you can still feel the awful

29:13

feelings of that event. That

29:15

means you need to process it. That

29:19

said, you have to be very

29:21

calm when you sit down and

29:23

process. And I like to

29:25

tell people, imagine that you're

29:27

in the upper balcony of a

29:30

theater after Act I of a

29:32

play. That play down

29:34

on stage was the two of you

29:36

fighting. And you're talking to

29:38

your partner about what happened during Act I.

29:42

That's the kind of calmness you need to have

29:44

before you talk. Nice.

29:51

To what extent is there utility

29:53

in talking things

29:55

out at the time? You

30:00

know, we've just had an argument. I'm

30:02

kind of upset. She's kind of upset. Do

30:07

we just continue for the rest of the day? All right,

30:09

cool. Let's park this and then carry on with our day.

30:12

Do we kind of get time apart? How

30:14

do we deal with it, let's say, that evening

30:16

or that day before we're both in that state

30:18

of calm to be able to discuss it maybe

30:20

tomorrow or the day after? OK,

30:24

so can you talk about it immediately

30:27

afterwards? Is that what you're asking? Yeah,

30:31

I guess. What do you

30:33

do while the emotions are still like still

30:35

they're not quite at that calm level where

30:37

you can discuss it fully calmly? I

30:40

wouldn't do it. I wouldn't do

30:42

it because it's so easy to

30:44

slide into the old argument

30:46

again. You'll slide right back

30:48

into the fight. And

30:51

also, a lot of people will

30:53

apologize almost immediately. And

30:55

that doesn't work either. And

30:57

the reason is because you

31:00

haven't heard your partner's experience

31:03

of the fight enough to

31:05

know how your behavior impacted

31:07

them. So you don't really

31:09

know what you're apologizing for until

31:12

you've heard the story of

31:14

your partner's experience. And you've been

31:16

able to share yours too. Because

31:19

usually, both people in some

31:21

way are responsible for what

31:23

happened. Not always, but often. Nice.

31:28

That's great. Already got a

31:30

very actionable point I'm going to take away from this conversation. So

31:32

thank you. What are some high ROI

31:35

things that sort of like communication wise

31:37

or anything that you can do in a

31:39

couple that would

31:41

potentially help mitigate

31:44

against some of the issues that people

31:46

have regarding communication, things like that? If

31:48

that question makes sense. Yeah, I think

31:50

I know what you're getting at. So

31:53

I think understanding that you're

31:55

not going to be perfect at communication and

31:57

fumbling your way through. bad

32:00

communication, I think is better than like

32:02

not communicating at all. But there's like

32:04

lots of little things that you can

32:07

do to make kind of like saying

32:09

the more difficult things easier. And I've

32:12

learned the hard way that if you don't

32:15

bring these things up, they will just simmer

32:17

and they will become resentment and anger and

32:19

then they are just going to come out

32:21

completely in an uncontrolled way. And

32:24

what you want is to be able to like say

32:27

these things in a very controlled scenario so

32:29

you can actually have like a productive conversation

32:31

about these things. But like, for

32:34

instance, just being in the same room is

32:36

really difficult when having a conversation. Like, I

32:38

don't, I don't necessarily believe in like,

32:41

the hierarchy of like, communication

32:43

like, like face to

32:46

face is best. I'm like, if you if

32:48

you're really struggling to say that thing face

32:50

to face, then maybe write it down or

32:52

text them or like a phone call or

32:54

something like, as long as like that message

32:56

is getting across. I think if you are

32:59

having no face to face interaction

33:01

in your relationship, then work

33:04

on that because there is a lot

33:06

that you can gather in from

33:09

those interactions. But

33:12

like, things that

33:14

I love doing is like if you're

33:16

going for a walk together, you

33:18

can always I always find like you can have

33:20

like quite deep conversations when you're going for a

33:22

walk, because you're not looking at each other, you're

33:25

like, you're like looking ahead. Anything that kind of

33:27

like gives you something else

33:29

to focus on as well. Sometimes if

33:32

you're like sitting together, but like back

33:34

to back and talking is really nice

33:36

because you have that contact point between

33:39

you. So there's that closeness and that

33:41

physicality there. But you're just

33:43

talking at a wall. And for some people

33:45

that can be like a lot easier to

33:47

then like, say some of the harder

33:50

things. But

33:52

you you have that comfort of like still

33:54

being able to like feel their presence There.

33:58

And Then I Think like just one of. My

34:00

favorite things and has a communication relationship is

34:02

like. Relationship. For it since.

34:06

I would think that maybe what you're getting

34:08

out and I love these because I just

34:10

think that's so important my if it's something

34:13

that you do like once a year. Were

34:16

you you and make it like a

34:18

son Think you make it like a

34:20

dateline right? So it feels it doesn't

34:22

feel threatening, it doesn't feel like something

34:24

that you has to be worried about

34:26

in the lead up to actually something

34:28

that you're like the looking forward to

34:30

clean up like all within. a guide

34:32

to the fancy place to dinner and

34:34

I'm going to do our relationship or

34:36

that or like we're gonna guys and

34:38

to this gag and then like those

34:41

who favorite pub and do our relations

34:43

you know to be like feel like.

34:45

He. It it doesn't have to the

34:47

I right laptop outlets sits at the

34:50

the kitchen table the much like if

34:52

you if you may care that whatever

34:54

works for you. In. Terms

34:56

of like what puts you in

34:59

a open com. or

35:01

lock mood with as you don't want to

35:03

be doing your relationship or that when you're

35:05

like. On. At Pride you

35:07

wanna like you want to be setting

35:09

yourself up for success and senses like

35:12

the contact that you create and the

35:14

environment, the urine. Adam. Can

35:16

like asking you to the like. So

35:19

how's the last year the insists for

35:21

you and like. What?

35:24

Were your highlights and tenth relationship

35:26

us what we a low light?

35:28

Is there any think that you're

35:30

interested? In working on look. For

35:33

of together or for me

35:35

or for you as an

35:37

individual like. Getting.

35:39

All of that out there and like you know

35:41

if you've had like a good evening, if he

35:44

had like a lovely time together. Than

35:46

that. At. Kind of

35:48

interaction can like can be really playful. And.

35:51

Can be really like. Lovely.

35:54

Stuff here for something that me and

35:56

and my girlfriend do on earth of

35:58

every every three weeks with her. Yeah

36:00

a bit of a relationship preview we have

36:02

like an ocean templates which is queen in

36:04

the look at on the phone with our

36:06

eyes we'd already we're supposed like whole questions

36:08

that we the five go to go through

36:10

line classes just. Oh. Allah

36:12

give you. Guys.

36:15

As go he can review discussion. they.

36:17

They'll still not mine and and last

36:19

relationship audit lives like. Had.

36:21

An eye maybe like a walk on the has died a

36:24

thing like. Has been seized yet

36:26

good. Any notes. Less. Than a

36:28

smoker was a specific. And

36:31

know if not then like a proper serious

36:33

on with actual I listed questions I think.

36:37

As I think the tesla like. Just.

36:40

Naturally talking about our relationship a long as are

36:42

about to become parents yes it's a slight and

36:44

of kinds of Kodiak comes up quite a lot

36:47

in terms of dislike. Thinking

36:49

about are dynamic and as being like. Look

36:52

at. What's inside of the at his widow

36:54

whatever he likes the firstly because the you know the

36:56

last few months as it just being asked to as

36:58

well say a like. How

37:00

forgetting things like how do you wanted to go in

37:02

like. Seven like I guess the sort of

37:05

conversations like happen by default. It's so easy

37:07

to get kind of caught up in the

37:09

day to day and specially like in the

37:11

early stages stage the dating someone or in

37:13

a relationship where maybe you want living together

37:15

and you see each other once twice a

37:17

week and shootings me it's time in this

37:20

stuff happening. Yeah, Yeah. Mm lens the

37:22

time to reflect on? Yeah. Hey

37:24

when we did that last week like I had a

37:26

really good time and. This. Is how.

37:29

The thing that you said made me feel and how they

37:31

like that and. I was

37:33

wondering like if you have had a good time them

37:35

you know. It's like both it's it's unusual have

37:37

if of within in the moment and for making time

37:39

for them I think make sense I'm yeah one thing

37:42

that we do like a who what when well in

37:44

our relationship freak I will supported by me to do

37:46

feel if we can was something I did the made

37:48

you feel loved appreciated a respected this week mokedi better

37:50

differently in the coming week in the coming week and

37:52

we don't the question yeah yeah we're so the what

37:54

do you mean stressed the the moment how can I

37:56

help. Or when not so well last week

37:58

was. Or. Lol. however long

38:01

that period was. This is

38:03

a good one. Is there anything at all I did

38:05

this week that made you feel not nice, aka sad

38:07

or bad or annoyed in any tiny way? How can

38:09

I make it better for us?

38:11

And I find that, yeah. That's a hard one. I always get

38:13

really good data points on this. Haha, data points. Okay,

38:16

cool. And I think

38:18

with a question like that, you have to be

38:20

careful with how you answer it. I,

38:23

one of the things that I always hear from like,

38:27

like relationship therapists and stuff,

38:29

is like using eye sentences.

38:32

So like, say if like we

38:34

were doing that audit and you asked

38:37

me that question, instead of being like,

38:39

wow, you did this and you made

38:41

me and you, you're

38:43

a bad person or like you're insensitive,

38:45

da da da da. Using an

38:47

eye sentence would be like, I

38:50

felt like this because

38:53

of this thing that happened. Or like, this

38:55

is how, like making it actually

38:58

about like how,

39:01

what that experience is like for you. Is

39:03

how I've heard that it's better to, no,

39:06

that's better to do. Cause I think kind of

39:08

coming with the like accusatory way

39:10

like you this, you that. The other person

39:12

can get quite defensive and actually like sometimes

39:15

we do need to like own

39:17

our feelings as well of like, oh,

39:20

I felt like this and like,

39:22

I think that's partly due to this

39:25

thing that you did, but then also it might have

39:27

something to do with like, this

39:29

thing happened to me in my past. And

39:33

maybe like, it would be really helpful for

39:35

me if we talked about that more. Do

39:37

you know what I mean? Like, rather than

39:39

being like, you don't understand me. Yeah,

39:42

I've been reading a book recently called Nonviolent

39:45

Communication. Which is all

39:47

about this kind of like, here's how we express our feelings

39:49

in this kind of way. And it's all about kind of

39:52

making it about yourself. Yeah, yeah. I

39:54

feel like excellent this happens. Yeah. And

39:57

then it becomes not a, it's not an accusation. It's literally just, this

39:59

is the way I'm feeling. And I'm just

40:01

letting you know and you know, I'd like us to

40:03

talk about it if that's alright with you kind of vibes And

40:05

then yeah, there's no right or wrong answer. It's not

40:08

like pointing the finger at someone. It's really kind of

40:10

owning the feeling Yeah, because

40:12

sometimes it can feel like Somebody's

40:15

direct actions have like hurt us in

40:17

a certain way, right? But

40:19

other times like I know that

40:21

there's been times where like Dan has

40:23

done something perfectly reasonable But

40:26

I'm upset by it, right? Yeah, and so

40:28

it's about like sometimes it's about Still

40:31

being honest about that. Yeah, like because sometimes you

40:33

can be like, oh my my problems are insignificant

40:36

like I'm not gonna bring it up, but

40:38

actually like just being like that

40:41

like I felt like this like this is

40:43

how that made

40:45

me feel whilst also acknowledging that like

40:48

Maybe it wasn't entirely down to the

40:50

other person's behavior because there's like

40:52

there's a lot of things at play when it comes

40:54

to like how we react to things and how we

40:56

feel about things and some of that will be like

40:59

The literal behavior that we are on the receiving end

41:01

off But other times it can just be like all

41:03

sorts of baggage that we're also

41:06

bringing to the to the situation But being

41:08

able to have those conversations about like what

41:10

you do about that because even so even

41:12

if someone's behavior is like perfectly Reasonable

41:15

like whether you decide reasonable in your relationship

41:17

is they might go. Okay, like

41:20

yes this this thing that I

41:22

was doing like I know that That

41:25

was reasonable But I see

41:27

that it's upsetting you and so I'm happy

41:29

to like meet you where you're at Or

41:32

maybe we meet somewhere in the middle for the time

41:34

being whilst we work on this Yeah, and that doesn't

41:36

necessarily have to be a permanent thing Like maybe that person

41:38

will eventually be able to like go

41:40

back to doing that thing whatever it was

41:42

before. Yeah Yeah, because I guess

41:44

if you if you if you care about how the

41:47

other person is feeling and like the relationship itself Yeah,

41:49

yeah, that's probably more important than oh, well in my

41:51

view. It's reasonable for me to do this Yeah, cuz

41:53

it's not about being like right or wrong in

41:55

that situation. I was like, well, it was perfectly

41:58

reasonable my actions Yeah, so I take the a

42:00

responsibility for how you're feeling right now. You're

42:03

their teammate, you're their partner,

42:05

like just because

42:08

what you did was reasonable or whatever

42:10

doesn't mean that you can just completely

42:14

take a step back from your partner's

42:16

feelings. That's why I like that question about like

42:18

what's making you feel stressed right now and how

42:20

can I help because that stress wasn't

42:23

caused by you but

42:25

you're still making it part of your

42:27

responsibility as their partner. To

42:29

help them with that. One

42:32

of the things I used to

42:34

have on my hinge profile was

42:36

the prompt was the ideal relationship

42:38

is when dot dot dot and

42:41

I wrote something like when we

42:43

spend 10% of

42:46

our time each day together and the

42:48

rest of the time kind of doing our own thing. And

42:51

I had some that was

42:53

a very controversial thing to say. I had some people being

42:55

like I mean 10% of 24

42:57

hours, 2.4 hours, sounds

42:59

reasonable, possibly the excessive and I had other

43:01

people being like oh my god what a

43:03

fucking sociopath psychopath. How dare he suggest you

43:06

want to be in a relationship where you're

43:08

only spending 10% of your time like together.

43:10

And my mind was thinking like two and a half hours

43:12

a day is a long time to spend like with someone

43:14

quality time like surely you want to kind of do your

43:16

own thing and read your own book and not feel the need

43:18

to have all this

43:20

time kind of together together.

43:22

What's your take on the kind of in the

43:24

context of a relationship there's balance between

43:27

hanging out versus not hanging out. I

43:29

think yeah you know what when you actually pound

43:32

that down to 10% is 2.4 hours

43:35

that makes sense. I mean it's really

43:37

funny because you see 10% you think

43:39

oh that's nothing but I think

43:42

the correct is quality time right. I like

43:44

I love the idea of my romantic fantasy

43:46

is like reading a book on the opposite

43:48

end of a sofa to someone else also

43:50

reading their own book. That's great

43:52

and someone who's been you know it's a

43:54

lot of time. Yeah like alone togetherness that

43:56

comfort that you know coming back to that

43:59

Donald when a child psychologist thing

44:01

of like being comfortable in the

44:03

presence of another without needing to

44:05

interact. I think

44:08

that that's maybe the grey area that's maybe the

44:10

you know, maybe that's the 20% that we're not

44:12

of the waiting hours that aren't being accounted for

44:14

in that 10%. There is

44:17

a grey area there. But quality time I

44:19

think is so important because I think

44:23

and people have different approaches with dating,

44:25

but for some and I

44:27

think this can be driven by insecurity quite a

44:29

lot. There's the sense that you should be checking

44:31

in every hour or so, hour or two on

44:33

WhatsApp. That's my personal

44:35

health. You know, WhatsApp, so much stuff

44:37

gets misconstrued. Me and my best friends

44:39

in the world, we, you know, we,

44:43

yes, well WhatsApp, well, honestly, we sometimes

44:45

get, you know, occasionally

44:47

one of us will send each other a

44:49

WhatsApp late at night, we'll get into this

44:51

like for an ethic, great, energetic conversation, but

44:54

we don't, you know, we do not message

44:56

each other asking how was your day because

44:58

we know that our bond is so great,

45:00

that our energy together, our quality time is

45:02

so much better than this weird green app

45:04

that's hanging and you know, in between our

45:06

hinge notifications and our like, you know, Instagram

45:08

or whatever, like we know that it's more

45:10

than that. So we don't want to reduce

45:13

it. So I think, you know, I think that

45:15

maybe it's an easier sell and it's hard, but

45:17

you know, hinge like Twitter and

45:20

those prompts, text

45:22

boxes, it gives you like a small amount

45:24

of characters and also no one wants

45:26

a nuanced essay on a hinge profile anyway, but

45:29

you know, there is so much more to

45:31

it. There is so much more to it.

45:33

And I think, you know, in the same

45:35

way that we can make alone a time, quality

45:38

time, I think it's made me so much more passionate

45:40

about my friendships and

45:42

my time with others being really, really

45:44

good. Like I'm, I think

45:46

again, when it's not just like, you know, you're not

45:49

just sort of like lazily reaching for someone to kind

45:51

of just, you know, be

45:53

with you to quell your existential fear

45:55

of dying, then it's really nice to, you

45:57

know, know that you're going to actually that

46:00

time. So yeah, I don't know. I can

46:02

totally see why it was a hard sell,

46:04

but I think that in a relationship, yeah,

46:07

it's just communicating that

46:09

value. Yeah. Yeah. Well,

46:11

one thing that my girlfriend and I

46:13

kind of distinguish between is together, together

46:15

time and together alone time. Actually, you

46:18

have that. Yeah. So like, together

46:20

alone is where we're chilling in the same, on the

46:22

dining table doing our own work or reading

46:24

our own books or like doing our own thing. And together,

46:27

together time is when we're actually together, together

46:29

doing a thing or like spending quality time

46:32

with one another. And I like, I

46:34

really like it when it's skewed more in the together

46:36

alone camp of like, we're in the same room, we're

46:38

enjoying each other's company, but we're doing our own thing.

46:41

And then the time that we do

46:43

spend together is like intentionally there

46:45

and we're intentionally present. Yeah. Yeah.

46:50

I mean, honestly, I, you know,

46:53

I've been in kind of a handful

46:55

of shorter relationships in the time, you know, post,

46:57

post alone, months era, the past three years, but

47:00

getting it right in the relationship, I think it's absolutely

47:02

magic. Because I think quite often people think about this

47:04

concept in terms of being single and

47:06

look, some people want to be single for life.

47:08

And that's a completely brilliant,

47:12

you know, in some ways, delicious life

47:14

experience. Most people don't.

47:16

So the gold standard, I suppose, is getting

47:18

that value into a relationship.

47:20

So you know, well done to begin with, how

47:22

do you and how do you keep

47:25

that balance going? So that can be a difficult

47:27

one, right? If you, I know you probably not

47:29

cut throws for 10% these days, but yeah,

47:31

I mean, so we don't live together.

47:34

So that makes it fairly straightforward. Often,

47:36

if we are on holiday, we will

47:38

kind of plan out like,

47:40

okay, today, we're going to have like the morning

47:42

after breakfast, we're going to do co

47:44

working until 3pm, which basically

47:46

means sitting on our respective laptops doing

47:48

our own thing. And then we'll go on this like,

47:51

think, we'll go out for dinner, we'll go

47:53

on this cruise, we'll like whatever. And

47:56

so having those like co working blocks is like

47:58

this basically that together alone time. Once

48:01

we start living together at some point, maybe post

48:03

marriage, then I'm sure it'll become a trickier

48:05

balance where you are in each other's company all

48:07

the time. Yeah, I think

48:10

that that is... Yeah,

48:12

it's been so long that I

48:15

can't quite imagine what that

48:17

like incidental time with a partner would be.

48:21

I don't know, but I guess it's just going in with

48:23

the values and I think that that is... It's

48:28

almost why it's important to

48:31

have these like these harder conversations early on,

48:33

I suppose, because then you're going... Then you

48:35

at least... It almost happens more naturally because

48:37

you're like, okay, well, okay. It's

48:39

go... Like we alone time is

48:41

a value, therefore it will come from points during

48:44

today or... All right, so that's

48:46

it for this week's episode of Deep Dive. Thank you so much for

48:48

watching or listening. All the links and resources that we mentioned in the

48:50

podcast are going to be linked down in the video description or in

48:52

the show notes, depending on where you're watching or listening to this. If

48:55

you want to see more of this on a podcast platform, then

48:57

do please leave us a review on the iTunes Store. It really

48:59

helps other people discover the podcast. Or if you're watching this in

49:01

full HD or 4K on YouTube, then you can leave a comment

49:03

down below and ask any questions or any insights or any thoughts

49:05

about the episode. That would be awesome. And if you enjoyed this

49:07

episode, you might like to check out this episode here as well,

49:09

which links in with some of the stuff that we talked about

49:11

in the episode. So thanks for watching. Do hit the subscribe button

49:13

if you aren't already and I'll see you next time.