0:00

By the way, in case you haven't heard, my brand

0:02

new book, Feel Good Productivity is now out. It is

0:04

available everywhere books are sold. And it's actually hit the

0:06

New York Times and also the Sunday Times bestseller list.

0:08

So thank you to everyone who's already got a copy

0:11

of the book. If you've read the book already, I

0:13

would love a review on Amazon. And if you haven't

0:15

yet checked it out, you may like to check it

0:17

out. It's available in physical format and also ebook and

0:19

also audio book everywhere books are sold. Hey

0:22

friends, and welcome back to Deep Dive, the podcast

0:24

where it's my immense pleasure to sit down with

0:26

academics and authors and creators and other inspiring people.

0:29

And we find out how they go to where they are and what we can learn

0:31

from them to help build a life that we love. What

0:33

you're about to hear is an interview between

0:35

me and Matthew Hussey. Matthew Hussey has got

0:37

a new book coming out called Love Life.

0:40

He is an absolutely enormously followed person

0:42

on the internet and on his podcasts

0:45

and on his first book, Get the

0:47

Girl, giving relationship advice,

0:49

mostly aimed at women. But his new book,

0:51

Love Life is aimed at everyone, not just

0:54

women. So this conversation

0:56

is mostly about relationships and how

0:58

to find and retain

1:00

love in a healthy fashion in the context

1:02

of a healthy relationship. This

1:05

was a super interesting conversation for me because we

1:07

start off talking about some stuff around like masculine

1:09

feminine energy and like kind of our

1:12

men and women looking for different things in that

1:14

kind of sense. But then after a little bit

1:16

of time, the conversation transitions into me basically

1:19

turning into a bit of a therapy session

1:21

and asking Matthew for advice about my own

1:23

love life. And man, the stuff

1:25

that Matthew shares is just absolutely incredible. And

1:28

if you are in a relationship or have ever been

1:30

in a relationship, I think you're gonna get a lot

1:32

of value from this episode. So

1:35

I hope you enjoy this conversation between me and

1:37

Matthew Hussey. All righty, Matthew,

1:39

welcome to the podcast. How are you doing?

1:41

Yeah, I'm good, man, I'm good. It's good

1:43

to see you. Thanks for having me. I'm

1:45

on a crazy three month, just

1:47

running around everywhere right now. So it's

1:49

actually nice to have an hour with

1:51

a friend. Yeah,

1:53

just kidding. So you

1:56

have a funky new book, great title by

1:58

the way, Love Life. What a title. How

2:00

is that taken by the way? I

2:03

know. I know. Every time I see really

2:06

good titles, I'm so jealous. I'm like, oh, shit. I

2:08

wish I'd written a book called Love Life. What

2:12

is the book about? The book is

2:14

designed to be a co-pilot for anybody

2:16

who is looking for love. You

2:19

know, the subtitle is how

2:22

to raise your standards, find your person

2:25

and live happily, no matter

2:27

what. And

2:29

it's been a real labour of love

2:31

for me because I started this 17

2:33

years ago, working with people in their

2:35

love lives. And so much has changed

2:37

in the way I think about this.

2:39

So much has changed in

2:42

the way, in some of the things that

2:44

I'm seeing out there with people trying to

2:46

find love. The work has gotten a lot

2:48

deeper. And

2:50

I got to the point where I went, why is it

2:52

so many of us are still struggling? Either

2:55

to find opportunities in love or

2:58

to find happiness in love

3:00

because opportunities and happiness are

3:03

not the same thing. And I know for a

3:05

while, even past the point where I'd learned how

3:07

to create opportunities in my love life, I

3:10

still struggled to find what

3:12

I felt was my person. Like I struggled

3:15

to find the kind of love that I

3:18

thought I wanted or needed. I

3:22

felt continuously not at peace

3:25

in my own love life. And I know

3:27

so many people felt the same. They either

3:29

felt they were chasing someone who was exciting

3:32

but made them miserable because

3:35

of how elusive they were, or

3:38

they were settling for someone who made

3:40

them feel safe, but they

3:43

found themselves continuously doubting

3:45

was the right person for them. And

3:49

just going through that cycle over and

3:51

over again. And

3:54

I felt like, you know what there

3:56

needs to be a book out there

3:58

that acknowledges these

4:01

struggles in a very real way

4:03

and in a very nuanced way

4:06

and is that copilot for

4:08

anybody at any stage of

4:10

life that is looking

4:12

for love even if

4:14

they are absolutely frustrated

4:17

exhausted and burned out from

4:19

the process of dating. Nice

4:23

okay so I

4:25

have lots of questions on this. Firstly

4:28

and it might be controversial but to what extent

4:31

assuming heterosexual relationships and cisgendered

4:34

people to what extent do

4:37

men and women have similar

4:39

or different struggles when it comes

4:41

to finding love? There

4:45

are things that I

4:47

hear more from women than

4:49

I do from men so

4:53

and this isn't necessarily just true

4:55

of women but I think

4:57

I hear it a lot more from women is I'm

5:02

you know why is it men don't want to commit and

5:09

I think that there are some typically

5:12

male challenges

5:16

I suppose with settling

5:19

down whether they're societal or genetic

5:21

or whatever that's almost beyond my

5:23

pay grade but it is it

5:26

is true that women seem

5:29

to suffer more with men who don't

5:31

want to commit than men suffer with

5:33

women who don't want to commit. So

5:37

I would say that's probably

5:39

a big one. I think

5:42

there are some interesting dynamics

5:44

right now between

5:48

men trying to figure out where

5:50

their power comes from and

5:55

facing women who you know

5:58

a lot of men were raised to believe that their

6:01

tools for impressing

6:03

someone were status and

6:06

money and power. Certainly

6:09

as a guy those feel like the

6:11

tools we can control, right? We may

6:13

not be able to choose how tall

6:15

we are or you know the bone

6:18

structure we have but we

6:21

can make ourselves more successful and

6:23

we can earn more money and we

6:26

can get more status and

6:28

I think that men are increasingly

6:30

coming up against women who already

6:32

have those things and at the

6:36

very least aren't

6:38

as easily impressed by those

6:40

things in men or like

6:43

I'm at that same level as you or

6:45

I'm you know higher on the food chain

6:47

in that way than you. So I think

6:50

men are suffering

6:52

a little bit today from trying

6:55

to figure out where does my power come

6:57

from, where does my

6:59

worthiness come from because

7:02

the old tools aren't

7:04

working the way they used to, it's not enough you

7:06

know there was a time where as a man you

7:08

know slapping

7:12

you know

7:14

money on the table for the night

7:16

dinner was enough

7:18

you know that was like decades ago that

7:21

was like that was what you were supposed

7:23

to do is provide and you

7:26

know bonus points if you're not

7:28

physically abusive. There

7:32

was a time when like that was like

7:35

the expectation and the

7:37

expectation has

7:40

got thank God significantly

7:43

higher for men

7:46

and I think a lot of men are

7:48

trying to figure out now they're

7:51

either having to find someone who

7:53

doesn't intimidate them

7:57

so let me try and find someone who's not

7:59

got as much going on as I

8:01

have or someone who's you know

8:03

needs me in all of those ways or they're

8:06

having to reevaluate where

8:08

their source of confidence comes from. I think

8:11

on the other side of the equation there's

8:13

something interesting going on with women where it's

8:15

like a lot of I

8:19

think a lot of women are going

8:21

to face and already are facing a

8:23

reevaluation of what's of

8:26

what they consider indicators of

8:28

a great

8:31

partner because if

8:34

you're in a strong position in your own life,

8:37

if you've got to a certain

8:39

place in your career and

8:42

your financial independence, then

8:46

I've always felt well that

8:48

gives you more choice, that

8:50

gives you the ability to

8:52

really pick who you want to pick. You

8:54

really can choose for love, you really can

8:57

choose for who has the

8:59

greatest qualities,

9:01

who has the most character,

9:04

who brings you the

9:06

most as a partner as

9:09

opposed to feeling like the more I go

9:11

up the food chain the less options I

9:13

have because I'm

9:15

still looking for someone who's at

9:17

my level and there's

9:20

less and less guys at my level.

9:24

I think that's a that's

9:26

a scarce way

9:28

of looking at it and I

9:31

think that depletes your options. But

9:33

I think it is

9:35

important for women to reevaluate what's really

9:37

important to me in a partner and

9:39

is it all of these, well at

9:42

the very least, is it some of

9:44

these things that I've told myself are

9:46

important in the past that

9:48

are actually not nearly as important as I

9:51

thought they were especially now that I've got

9:53

to this position for myself. So

9:55

I hope all that makes sense, I'm happy

9:57

to dive in. Again it's just a And

10:00

this is empirical for me because I'm

10:02

seeing what's going on out there. Um,

10:05

I'm not a data scientist in these

10:07

areas. I'm not someone who is

10:09

studying evolutionary biology, but

10:12

watching the actual patterns empirically of what's

10:14

going on for people in their love

10:16

lives. These are very real things that

10:18

I think people are coming up against. Okay.

10:21

Nice. So, um,

10:24

you know, I listened to, uh, the

10:26

modern wisdom podcast from my friend, Chris Williamson from time

10:28

to time, and he always has

10:30

these psychologists or evolutionary psychology type people

10:33

on, uh, talking about

10:35

the mating crisis, talking about this exact point. So

10:37

if we take this point of a woman who

10:39

is super successful, what

10:41

these guests and supposed experts on this podcast

10:43

would say is that that,

10:45

you know, because of hypogamy where women

10:48

want to date and marry upwards rather

10:50

than downwards. It

10:52

is just a fact, unfortunately, biologically or

10:54

psychobiologically, where wired women are wired in

10:57

a way as such

10:59

that they will not be interested in someone who

11:01

has lower status than them. They want someone on

11:03

a higher level. And it sounds

11:05

like what you're suggesting is that they

11:08

should reevaluate that perhaps the evolutionary psychologist

11:10

bros might say, yeah, but in the same

11:12

way that a guy can't choose to be attracted to

11:14

a woman. He's not attracted to a woman, a woman

11:17

cannot choose to be attracted to a man that she

11:19

doesn't view as above the level. To

11:21

what extent would you, would you agree with that? I think

11:23

that a lot of these people

11:25

have a very selective focus. I

11:28

don't doubt that they can find data

11:30

and a huge amounts

11:32

of data for, to support their arguments.

11:34

And I don't doubt that there's

11:38

an enormous amount

11:40

of truth in some of what they're saying. I

11:42

don't, you know, I don't think

11:44

it's either or.

11:47

I think that if you, if

11:49

I look around in my life, I

11:53

have, I'm not sure of

11:55

examples of women

11:58

who have chosen. men who

12:01

are not in the same position as they

12:03

are, they are the person

12:05

earning more, the woman is the person earning

12:07

more money in the relationship, the woman is

12:10

higher up the food chain and

12:14

she's not in an unhappy relationship going when

12:16

can I get rid of this

12:18

loser and go and find someone who's on

12:20

my level. She's found

12:22

an incredible partner that she's

12:25

incredibly happy with and

12:27

her career is its

12:30

own thing outside of that. Not

12:33

to mention if I look on

12:36

the male side of that equation,

12:39

the men that I know in those relationships

12:41

and granted I'm talking about the successful ones,

12:43

I have no doubt that I could find

12:45

unsuccessful versions of this too in my life

12:48

but the guy in that

12:50

relationship is also

12:52

not saying God I feel like

12:56

I hate myself because she earns more money

12:58

than me and she's in a

13:00

more high flying career than I

13:02

am and what I do is

13:04

more subtle or more modest. Some

13:07

of those men are the most

13:11

confident men I know and

13:14

I don't look at them from

13:16

a distance and go God they wish they

13:20

were more alpha. They

13:22

strike me as just incredibly secure

13:24

men who have

13:27

found their peace within a relationship where

13:29

those men are not going I have

13:31

no significance because she earns more money

13:33

than me. They're saying my

13:35

significance didn't come from that in the

13:37

first place. So I know

13:42

those relationships exist and I

13:45

think it is entirely possible to

13:48

look at ourselves and go where does

13:51

my happiness come from?

13:53

Maybe society has steered me this way

13:55

or maybe even to some extent nature

13:57

has steered me in a certain way.

14:00

and direction, but there's

14:02

plenty of things in life that, you

14:04

know, nature has steered us towards over time that

14:07

we no longer do. And we

14:09

make more conscious decisions

14:12

and more intent we, we human

14:14

beings have the benefit of intent,

14:16

we can put intent behind

14:18

things and we can, I believe, we have

14:20

a great degree to which

14:22

we can choose what

14:24

we value. We can even

14:27

train ourselves to value new

14:30

things. I mean, I was a, there

14:32

was a stage in my life where I didn't

14:34

date in a healthy way. Like, I

14:37

would say my nature, my

14:39

instinct guided me towards

14:42

things that just felt good or things

14:44

that felt like a buzz or a

14:46

high, I think there was an addictive

14:49

quality to the way that I dated,

14:51

which I look back on with some

14:53

regret. And

14:55

the, the, the way that ways

14:58

I hurt other people ways that I hurt

15:00

myself in that process, I don't

15:02

look back on that with a huge degree

15:04

of pride. I go, Oh,

15:06

that was where I was then that was

15:08

my degree of evolution. Then I had

15:11

a lot to learn. I didn't have the

15:13

tools to fight. I didn't

15:15

know how to make myself happy. In

15:18

my love life, I just was this

15:20

like ball of reactivity. And

15:22

at a certain point in my love

15:24

life, I started to value peace. I started

15:27

to go, I really want peace in

15:29

this area of my life. And

15:33

yes, I still want attraction. It's not,

15:35

I'm not giving up on attraction. Yes,

15:37

I still want chemistry and I never

15:39

could have been with a partner

15:41

where I had no chemistry, but peace

15:45

started to become this really

15:47

important overriding thing. Am I

15:50

with someone who I can

15:52

build with? Am I with someone where I

15:55

feel a high degree of peace? Do I

15:57

feel more of myself with this person? And

16:00

those things were not things, if you'd have

16:02

asked me at 25 what I

16:05

was looking for, I wouldn't have said peace. But

16:09

nowadays, that's like the greatest thing in

16:11

the world to me. If you take

16:14

a woman who has come out

16:16

of a 10-year relationship or

16:18

a 10-year marriage or a 30-year marriage

16:20

with a narcissist, the things she's looking

16:23

for at the end of that, when

16:25

she gets to a place where she's healed and

16:28

recovered enough from that relationship to go back out

16:30

there again, the thing

16:32

she's looking for will be different than

16:35

the thing she was once looking for. And I

16:37

guarantee you peace or safety

16:40

will be a lot higher on her list. So

16:42

I do think our values change. I

16:44

do think what we want

16:47

change is. And whether

16:49

you wait for life to do that to you

16:51

because you have to experience enough pain

16:54

in chasing the other that you

16:57

feel like your hand is forced.

16:59

To value something different or

17:01

whether you can see the

17:03

writing on the wall early where you don't

17:05

have to experience all of that pain. And

17:08

you can start to pay attention to where

17:10

your true happiness comes from, where

17:12

your true peace comes from, where true alignment

17:14

comes from for you. I

17:16

think we can actually start to choose what

17:19

to value and those choices change the decisions

17:21

that we would have once made in our

17:23

dating lives. No.

17:25

Okay. This is interesting. So

17:27

as you were talking, it was kind of

17:29

reminding me of the concept of like first

17:31

and second mountains. I remember called Second Mountain

17:34

by David Brooks where he kind of talks

17:36

about how in life there are two mountains.

17:38

The first mountain is the mountain of success

17:40

and achievement and money and freedom. And

17:42

then you get to the top of the

17:44

first mountain and you realize it's kind of a bit hollow.

17:46

Or you get knocked off the first mountain by a health

17:48

scare or someone close to you dying or something like that.

17:51

And then you realize there is the second mountain and that

17:53

is the mountain of commitment, of family,

17:55

of like really dedicating yourself to a particular

17:57

cause. It's not the mountain of life. I

18:00

want to be free to do whatever I want. I actually,

18:03

what I really want is to commit to

18:05

this thing which myself at age 21

18:07

might have thought like, that's

18:09

so boring but actually that's the thing that brings me

18:11

joy. And it sounds like

18:13

there's almost this sort of like two

18:16

phases of how people view

18:18

dating and relationships. Would that be

18:20

fair to say where phase one is maybe, you

18:22

know, call it the party years, call it the

18:25

have sex with as many people as possible years,

18:27

call it the I'm looking for someone really hot

18:29

with like high drama years and maybe like a

18:31

phase two which is more like actually I'm looking

18:33

for peace, contentment, commitment, someone I can build a

18:35

family with, someone I can build a life with.

18:38

Would you say that's a reasonable approximation? Yes,

18:41

well I think that's very good Ali. I think

18:44

that the comparison is really strong and

18:48

some people never get over that first

18:50

mountain by the way. That's

18:53

a scary thing I think for a lot of

18:55

people in their love lives is that, you know,

18:58

they get to their 50s or 60s and they're

19:00

still chasing that first mountain as

19:02

if that's the one that's going to make them

19:04

happy. And I don't come from a place of

19:06

saying that everyone should end up in a place

19:09

where they value marriage above all else. I don't

19:12

have any kind of a gender around what

19:15

mountain people end up deciding

19:17

is important. But it does

19:19

seem to me that we

19:22

are happier at depth

19:26

whatever represents that

19:28

depth for us

19:31

in our life. And

19:33

I think that if

19:35

we can get to that depth and decide what that

19:37

is for us, that will

19:40

be the thing that ends up making us a

19:42

lot happier. And often, you know,

19:45

I think that the same thing you can,

19:47

one thing I've been saying a lot that I talk

19:49

about in this book is

19:53

the difference between what serves your ego

19:55

and what serves your happiness in your

19:57

love life. And I think that there

20:00

is even maybe something analogous with

20:03

the mountain idea of saying the first mountain

20:05

there's a hell of a lot of ego

20:07

in that mountain and the

20:09

second mountain there's a hell of a lot

20:11

more happiness because

20:13

that money, status,

20:15

excitement, opportunity, validation, all of

20:17

that, there's a lot of

20:20

ego behind all of that

20:22

and we tend to get

20:24

to a point where we find that that

20:26

doesn't work nearly as well or as sustainably

20:29

as we hoped it would and

20:31

then the second mountain, in

20:34

some ways it's the opposite of

20:36

ego because the things that

20:39

work for us on the second mountain are

20:41

often a lot more subtle, they

20:43

don't necessarily come with as many

20:45

applause or as

20:48

many cheers from the sidelines or

20:50

they're not always as easy to

20:52

show off. I

20:55

have this challenge in my work today and

20:57

I'm sure you do too in some capacity

20:59

which is there

21:02

was a propensity for me in my 20s

21:04

to want to do the thing that would

21:06

create the most applause and now

21:09

in my late 30s I'm going

21:11

I want to do the thing that

21:13

fulfills me the most and

21:15

makes me the happiest and that's

21:18

often a very different thing

21:21

and I have to be prepared to

21:23

give up the thing

21:25

that gets me the most attention for

21:27

the thing that brings me the most

21:29

joy. The same is true in

21:32

our love lives, when we're looking

21:35

for a partner often

21:38

the things that people do

21:41

to get them attention push

21:43

the real love that they want

21:45

further away. You know you've got

21:48

how many guys message me every

21:50

month that want to

21:52

connect with me or do something with me

21:54

and I look at their profile and

21:56

it's all Ferraris

21:58

and lanes and,

22:02

you know, this insane

22:05

lifestyle that they

22:08

are putting forward as the be all end

22:10

all and it's

22:13

women in thongs sitting

22:15

next to them on a cabana,

22:18

you know, it's like while they're

22:20

drinking a cocktail in Dubai. That's

22:26

not what I value. So it's kind of like I

22:30

struggle with, I'm less likely to

22:33

connect with that person, not because I think they're

22:35

a bad person, but just because I'm like, I

22:38

don't think we have a lot in

22:41

common and people

22:43

do that in their love lives too. It's like I

22:45

have people that men

22:48

that I've worked with who are like, why do women

22:50

always only want me for

22:53

my money or for my, you

22:55

know, what I've achieved in my life? And

22:58

I'm like, well, you

23:00

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23:03

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23:05

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23:08

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23:15

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23:17

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23:19

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23:21

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23:23

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23:25

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23:28

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23:30

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23:32

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23:34

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23:37

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23:39

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23:42

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23:44

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23:46

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26:57

thing I like about your view

27:00

of the world compared to a lot of these like

27:03

evolutionary psychology pros is that I

27:06

think the evolutionary... I mean this is a little bit of

27:08

a mischaracterization on my part but broadly I think

27:10

the evolutionary psychology pros around relationships act

27:13

as if attraction

27:16

is never a choice

27:18

and you have no control, broadly

27:21

no control over who you've fallen off with or

27:23

the kind of relationship you end up in and

27:26

therefore you are almost forced to... I guess

27:29

guys just have to go after the hot girl, I guess

27:31

girls just have to go after the rich guy kind of

27:33

thing and therefore as a girl you've got to be hot

27:35

or you have no chance or as a guy you've got

27:37

to be rich or you have no chance. But

27:40

in much the same way it's like sure

27:42

we might be default wired in that direction

27:44

just like we are default wired to seek

27:46

status and money in our jobs even if

27:48

they're not that fulfilling. Eventually

27:51

people realize that actually chasing

27:53

money and fame and

27:56

shit in my job or in my life is

27:58

not actually the thing that brings me fulfilling. And

28:01

even though it's not

28:03

in line with your potentially your

28:06

innate urge, you can in fact act against your innate

28:08

urge. Will that be a fair summary of your position

28:10

unless that we actually can choose? Yeah,

28:13

absolutely it would. I

28:19

haven't studied the data that some of

28:21

these people have studied or in some

28:23

cases made a living out of that

28:27

enough to know whether the extent to

28:30

which they talk about it is

28:32

true. But even if we just

28:34

take it at face value that

28:37

everything they're saying is

28:39

true on some level, I

28:42

don't find

28:45

it compelling because

28:47

I know that there

28:49

are so many decisions we make all

28:51

day every day that are intentional about

28:53

what takes us towards a better life.

28:56

And I think that's so much of what you've done in your

28:59

most recent book and what

29:02

you talk about is sometimes

29:05

it's actually saying we

29:07

have some bad instincts. Some

29:11

of our instincts make us incredibly unhappy. There's

29:14

a chapter in my new

29:16

book called Question Your Instincts.

29:20

And that

29:22

kind of rails against a lot of common

29:24

advice about trusting your instincts.

29:27

I don't think our instincts are always

29:29

to be trusted. I think that they

29:31

often lead us down bad paths towards

29:33

people who don't treat us well, towards

29:35

lives that make us unhappy. And

29:37

I think our work intersects there, Ali,

29:40

because I think a

29:42

lot of your work is also training people

29:44

out of bad instincts towards instincts that are

29:46

going to lead them to more fulfilling jobs,

29:49

calmer lives, working at

29:51

a sustainable pace, balancing

29:54

their work life with other parts of their

29:56

life that are also important. So yeah. that

30:00

stuff interests me more than the

30:02

kind of very fatalistic, pessimistic view

30:05

of the world that it

30:07

always seems to kind of... I

30:10

find myself suspecting it a lot

30:12

because it always ends up being

30:18

tinged with um, being

30:22

slightly misanthropic. Like

30:25

it really

30:27

doesn't always seem to come from a place of

30:29

liking people very much. It

30:32

always feels to me, maybe I'm wrong, but

30:34

it feels to me like there's an edge

30:36

there where it's like, you

30:38

know, I come

30:40

from a place of really loving people

30:43

and seeing the best in people and

30:45

I just feel like so much of that

30:47

is very surface level and when I get

30:49

under the surface with people I always find

30:52

them much more interesting than those conclusions. Nice.

30:55

Okay, what is

30:58

your view on masculine and feminine energy?

31:01

Is it a thing? Do I have a...

31:03

I always feel

31:05

like I suck in

31:07

these conversations because there

31:10

are people that have thought about it so much and

31:14

I can

31:17

tell you this, in

31:20

my relationship, which is the happiest

31:22

relationship I've ever been in, we

31:24

never talk about masculine feminine energy

31:26

ever. Like it's never a... it's

31:29

just never a thing. Now if I were

31:31

to try and present the biggest counter argument

31:33

to that, it

31:36

would be, yeah, it's never a thing because you

31:38

guys are nailing it. Like

31:41

it's going well, like there's a real femininity

31:43

about Audrey and there's a masculinity that you

31:45

bring to the table, but I also have

31:47

a lot of feminine energy too, so I

31:51

bring that to the table as well and, you

31:53

know, is

31:57

polarity a real thing? Of

31:59

course. Of course it is,

32:01

you know, that there are

32:03

areas where we need,

32:06

like, there are areas where people need

32:08

to feel strong and they need someone to see

32:11

them as strong and to recognize that they're

32:13

strong. I'm not sure that that goes hand

32:15

in hand with that person not being able

32:17

to be strong themselves. I think they

32:20

can still bring that strength to the

32:22

table as long as they

32:24

also are prepared in other moments

32:27

to really recognize and acknowledge and

32:29

celebrate the strength in the other person. So

32:32

I think, I don't

32:34

know that I subscribe to this idea

32:36

that one person has to always be

32:39

feminine and the other person has to

32:41

always be masculine. I think

32:43

that polarity is

32:45

needed but I

32:49

feel like you can

32:51

experience polarity being,

32:54

you can experience reverse

32:56

polarity in different

32:58

days of the relationship depending on who's

33:01

the one who's showing up as a leader that day

33:03

or who's the one who's presenting as strong that

33:08

day, who's the one

33:10

in this conversation that

33:12

is being the strength for the other person.

33:16

And where the masculine feminine arguments turned

33:18

me off a little bit is,

33:22

you know, I was

33:24

part of a conversation, I was

33:26

on Red Table Talk with

33:30

Jada Pinkett Smith and a round table

33:33

of people all talking about

33:35

masculine feminine energy and

33:37

I felt slightly unprepared for

33:40

it because again it's just

33:42

not something I talk about a lot and

33:46

there was one particular argument put

33:48

forward that there has to be

33:50

a decision maker in the

33:53

relationship and no points

33:57

for guessing which gender was...

34:00

Being put forward as the one that needed to

34:02

be the decision maker, but there needed to be

34:04

one ultimate decision maker who

34:06

was the leader of the relationship

34:09

and Ultimately the

34:11

other partner in her

34:13

feminine had to you know

34:16

Defer to that decision ultimately because

34:18

you can't have two ultimate

34:20

decision makers in a relationship and

34:24

I I Have

34:29

been doing this for 17 years and I know where

34:33

that goes in so

34:35

many relationships that that

34:37

that is a mandate for abuse

34:39

in a relationship that

34:41

is a mandate for narcissism in

34:44

a relationship the there

34:46

are so many relationships that are terrible because

34:49

at some point and I'm Some

34:52

point the man decided my

34:54

way is the way and you

34:57

don't get a say or Ultimately,

35:00

I don't need you to weigh in

35:02

on these decisions because I make these

35:04

decisions for our family and because and

35:06

I've seen how bad that gets So

35:09

I can't I

35:12

can't subscribe to such what

35:14

I see as reductive ideas about

35:19

Initiating people in these

35:21

ways and who's responsible for what I?

35:24

think that it's also true

35:26

that people are more complex than I

35:28

I'd like to think I'm

35:30

more complex than You know,

35:33

I do a lot of very stereotypically

35:35

masculine things like I might pass

35:38

my hobby in my spare time is

35:40

Brazilian jiu-jitsu and boxing, you know, like

35:42

I'm not I'm

35:44

someone who and I don't do those

35:46

things because they're manly I do them because I

35:48

really enjoy them But those would

35:51

be typically associated with masculinity But

35:54

I can tell you right now. I there are

35:56

plenty of other areas of my life where I

35:58

don't fit into it a traditionally

36:01

masculine stereotype.

36:05

And it's nice

36:07

for me to be able to play

36:09

in both and for me to have

36:11

a relationship that has the kind of

36:13

ability, the versatility to be able to

36:15

play in both. So,

36:17

and I think vice versa.

36:20

So I just, I struggle, I struggle

36:22

with where the argument goes with these

36:24

things. Do I think polarity is important?

36:27

Yes. But

36:30

I, I think you can have a

36:32

lot of polarity going in both directions in

36:34

the same relationship on different

36:36

days. What we do have to

36:38

ask ourselves, I think is, is

36:43

am I ever, am

36:45

I ever helping to create the

36:47

polarity that

36:50

my partner needs in

36:52

order to feel what they need to feel?

36:56

Often enough, like

36:59

as often as they need to feel it,

37:01

because I don't need to feel

37:03

like a strong man, a hundred

37:05

percent of every day. It doesn't matter to me.

37:08

But sometimes I

37:11

do want Audrey to be feminine and I want

37:14

to be the man and

37:16

I want to feel that polarity.

37:18

Sometimes I want to feel that. And it's

37:20

nice that she knows how to play that

37:22

role and I know how to play that

37:25

role and she enjoys that too. Right. So

37:27

it works for both of us. But my

37:29

God, if our relationship needed to live by

37:31

that lens a hundred percent of the time,

37:34

I, that, that

37:36

would be strange. And I think it wouldn't, it

37:38

would be very reductive for both of us. Okay.

37:43

I really like that take. That's, that's, that's

37:45

very, yeah, it's nice and nuanced and kind

37:47

of speaks to, you know,

37:50

certainly rings true in my experience that yeah,

37:52

polarity is a thing, but it

37:54

doesn't need to be a thing a hundred percent of the time. Like

37:57

happy and for the life. Yeah. I've

37:59

been thinking about something over. last couple of weeks, I would love

38:01

to get your take on. And that

38:03

is the concept of personal

38:06

boundaries within a relationship.

38:10

So for example, let's say I

38:15

want to go on this boys trip

38:17

with my guy friend and

38:20

the wife or my partner does

38:23

not want me to

38:25

go on this boys trip.

38:27

Like clearly

38:31

it's not being in

38:33

a relationship is about compromising some of the

38:36

time and you know understanding why the

38:38

other person feels that way and sometimes going with them.

38:41

But I also get the sense that it's

38:43

not about always going with

38:45

what the other person wants you to do or not

38:47

do not do. So how do you think about this

38:49

balance between personal autonomy, personal

38:51

boundaries, but also compromise and respecting the

38:53

other person's wishes and all of this

38:55

sort of stuff? Yeah, it's so interesting.

38:58

It's such a great question. Because

39:01

we've all seen that

39:03

from the outside as well, where we

39:05

have a friend that can't

39:08

come on the trip.

39:11

Because you know, their partner has

39:15

an issue with the trip, even though you

39:17

know that there's literally not a single thing

39:19

about the trip that should

39:21

raise any alarm bell for

39:24

anyone. And you

39:26

just end up feeling a bit sad for

39:28

your your friend because you go, wow, that's

39:33

you sort of it's sort of sad for

39:35

everybody, because you're like, we've, you

39:38

know, his partner

39:40

must be having a hard

39:42

time about this, which is

39:44

completely unnecessary. And

39:48

now my friend, now I know

39:50

that my friend is in a relationship where

39:52

there's that kind of dynamic, where

39:55

there's something he would I know he would really

39:57

like to do, but he's not essentially

39:59

a little allowed to do because

40:03

it's presenting as

40:05

a challenge for his

40:07

partner, it's always a bit scary

40:09

sometimes to observe those relationships from the

40:11

outside because of course you do, you

40:14

tend to on behalf of your friend extrapolate

40:17

out what their life is going to look

40:19

like based on that and

40:22

I think that's true

40:24

in our own relationships as

40:26

well when we're the one being

40:29

controlling or when we're the one saying

40:32

I don't want you to do this or I you

40:34

know you have to do it like this whatever. There's

40:38

also an extrapolation going on on their

40:40

side, also human

40:43

beings, we struggle, we all have

40:45

our struggles and we all have

40:47

our trauma and our things that

40:50

you know activate that trauma and

40:53

make us afraid and our partner going on

40:55

that trip even though there might be nothing

40:57

untoward about it does

40:59

make us feel something that's very real to

41:02

us and so

41:05

how much do they owe us saying

41:08

you know what I just won't

41:10

do it because it makes you uncomfortable.

41:12

I think sometimes that's

41:14

the right answer, sometimes the

41:16

right answer is it's

41:19

not worth it to

41:21

me to make you uncomfortable you

41:23

know it's a bit like you

41:26

met someone two weeks ago that you

41:30

know for business and that person

41:32

wants to go to lunch with

41:34

you one-on-one and there's something

41:37

about that person that makes your partner

41:39

deeply uncomfortable. You

41:41

know if your partner says I just

41:44

this person makes me uncomfortable, you going

41:46

for lunch one-to-one with them makes me

41:48

feel weird, maybe that's a

41:50

moment where you go okay

41:53

fair enough like it's

41:55

not this isn't the business opportunity

41:57

of my life and It's

42:00

not make or break. And

42:03

I only met this person two weeks ago.

42:05

So frankly, it doesn't

42:07

matter that much. I

42:10

don't need to have lunch with this person. I

42:12

can just say, you know what? You get a

42:14

pass on this one because this person makes you

42:16

uncomfortable and you feeling good

42:18

is much more important to me than

42:20

this lunch with someone I met two

42:23

weeks ago that for me

42:25

was innocent. But if you feel

42:27

uncomfortable, fair enough. Now, if your

42:29

partner does that with the

42:31

next seven business meetings, then

42:35

it's like, okay, we need to talk about

42:37

this because then we

42:39

need to have an, we need to understand

42:41

where this comes from for you and

42:44

what, how we can get you to a

42:46

place of comfort. How do we, can we

42:48

look at this differently together? Is there a

42:50

different way of seeing this whole situation? Can

42:53

we, you know, I want to understand more

42:55

about you and what makes you feel unsafe

42:57

in this situation. You know,

42:59

I think there needs to be more of that

43:01

because if it's like, I think we always have to

43:04

be asking ourselves the question is

43:07

me, is

43:11

me acquiescing to this

43:13

sustainable for

43:16

the relationship? Um,

43:20

you know, if it's not,

43:23

then we need to dig deeper on

43:25

this and it doesn't, I don't think we should

43:27

apply a lens of just, no,

43:29

I'm not going to change that for you. I think

43:31

it's more, let's understand

43:33

our way around this better and where

43:35

it comes from, what

43:38

situations in the past have made

43:40

you feel unsafe or

43:43

have represented not just unsafely, but

43:45

like genuinely hurt you genuinely resulted

43:47

in bad times for you that

43:50

are making you feel unsafe in

43:52

this situation today in a context

43:54

in which I know you are

43:56

a hundred percent safe, but

43:59

it's. making you feel unsafe. Let's

44:02

talk about that. And

44:04

if we do it in therapy, great. If

44:06

we do it outside therapy, great. It doesn't

44:08

matter. But let's figure that out because

44:11

actually those moments

44:14

can be very, what

44:17

would be talked about in therapy as corrective

44:19

experiences. If

44:23

your partner can go on the boys trip that

44:25

would normally have freaked you out and

44:29

you have a very positive experience of that

44:31

with a person who makes you feel very

44:33

safe with a person who

44:35

gives you no reasons not to trust them with

44:37

a person who can check

44:40

in with you or like that can be a

44:42

very corrective experience. And that

44:45

that going towards that

44:47

thing that makes you uncomfortable might actually end

44:49

up being the most healing you can do.

44:51

I know that in

44:53

my relationship today, there are things

44:55

that 100% would

44:58

have made me jealous even five

45:00

years ago. And, and because

45:03

of the relationship I'm in and how safe

45:05

I feel in that relationship, it, it's

45:09

been such a corrective relationship for me

45:11

that I don't, Ali, I

45:13

barely ever get jealous. Like

45:15

I can't remember the last time I got

45:17

jealous and it's not I'm not someone with

45:19

a history of no jealousy. So

45:22

I don't feel jealous today. And that's

45:24

because this relationship has been, has been

45:27

highly corrective for me. And part of

45:29

that has been me feeling really safe.

45:32

So again, that invites another conversation.

45:35

If something about this

45:37

experience is making you feel unsafe, is

45:41

that just to do with this experience?

45:44

In which case, maybe we can address that or

45:46

is it to do with a greater feeling of

45:48

unsafe do you have in this relationship? And

45:51

we're not talking about that. Because maybe

45:53

what you're feeling about this experience is

45:55

that is not about this experience at

45:57

all. Maybe it's pointing to some people.

46:00

something much broader in the landscape

46:02

of this relationship that we

46:04

need to address and

46:07

this is just the inflamed

46:10

representation of that. Oh

46:13

man, it's like

46:16

you read into my heart and mind at the same time as

46:18

since you were giving that up, which is like wow, really

46:22

good. And I give you very little context

46:24

about my situation because you just hit the nail on the head

46:26

in terms of like, that's really good advice. Okay,

46:31

again, purely asking for a friend, but what

46:34

if you're in a situation where your

46:37

partner wants thing X and

46:40

your mom wants thing

46:42

Y and things X and Y

46:44

are somewhat contradictory. How

46:47

does Adeban go about approaching the situation

46:49

in this sense? Well,

46:59

firstly, I think we have to show

47:01

ourselves compassion in that situation because it's

47:06

likely an

47:10

indicator of something that this isn't the first

47:13

time that has caused us pain

47:16

in some way. There's

47:19

probably something long standing there that has

47:21

caused us a lot of pain in

47:24

our lives and we've

47:30

adapted to that. We've

47:33

adapted to needing

47:36

to make various people happy in

47:38

our lives. That is

47:40

not always easy to make happy and

47:43

maybe should never have

47:46

been our job as much as it is to

47:49

appease that person or to make them

47:51

happy with our decisions. And so

47:54

I think it's worth taking a

47:56

moment just to acknowledge ourselves and to

47:58

go, Oh,

48:01

you've probably not had it easy in this

48:03

area, have you? You know, there's been

48:06

a lot of needing

48:08

to live life in such a way as

48:10

where we're managing someone else's feelings a lot

48:12

of the time. And this

48:14

is just another representation of that. I,

48:17

you know, I now have this other

48:19

important person in my life whose

48:23

feelings I'm also worried about and

48:26

I've, you know, gotten as far

48:28

as I have and I've survived by

48:32

managing these feelings around me. And

48:34

so it's probably a gear that

48:37

you're good at going into in

48:39

those situations. It

48:42

is actually really good at taking care of

48:44

people and managing people, but you're

48:46

the one who ends up quite

48:49

unhappy or resentful or burnt out at the end

48:51

of it all. So

48:53

it's worth, firstly,

48:55

that compassion can be really healing because you

48:58

realize like, oh, this is, this is,

49:01

it might be what I'm not getting from anyone else right

49:04

now. It might be the exact

49:06

thing that I need is that acknowledgement. And

49:10

then saying, well, you know, maybe

49:12

this is an opportunity for me to have

49:15

to do, to put

49:20

a boundary in place that

49:22

I actually never did

49:24

before. You know, this, this

49:26

actually might be a moment for me. This

49:28

might be a healing moment for me and

49:30

a moment where I get to, I get

49:35

to make some progress in

49:37

my life because maybe there

49:39

are expectations that I have allowed

49:43

to be set up

49:45

over time that have, I've been

49:47

able to manage so far. I

49:49

mean, it's kind of like, Ali,

49:52

it reminds me of what you do so

49:54

well with people in their careers

49:57

is that you, you're so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so,

49:59

so, so, so good at helping people see

50:01

that there's like an expectation

50:04

maybe you've had of yourself or

50:06

your business or the way you

50:08

work, your capacity for doing

50:10

hard things that works

50:15

until a point, right? You're like

50:17

nearly killing yourself and

50:19

then it takes something bubbling

50:21

over to make

50:24

you realize like the insanity

50:26

of the expectation you've had on yourself

50:28

for so long. That was

50:30

like functional in a time where

50:33

it wasn't, there wasn't like

50:36

one more demand but the moment there was one

50:38

more demand or the moment like someone

50:40

got sick or the moment there was

50:42

a catastrophe you know some other problem

50:45

in your life that demanded that 10%

50:47

of energy that you do

50:49

not have, that was when

50:52

you realized like oh this isn't a problem that

50:54

started with this catastrophe,

50:56

this is a problem that started

50:58

10 years ago that was waiting

51:00

for a catastrophe to bring

51:02

it out and I kind

51:05

of think that it's the same thing

51:07

with what you're talking about in relationships

51:09

is like oh there's probably something here

51:12

that has been demanding an unreasonable amount

51:14

of sacrifice or energy or me managing

51:16

someone else's feelings for a very long

51:19

time and now because there's one more

51:21

person in the mix it's

51:24

hit a kind of breaking point

51:26

so those I

51:29

find those to be really good moments to

51:31

have a conversation with a mother

51:33

and a partner where we say

51:36

to our partner look I

51:39

that they giving them context

51:43

for your life I think is really important

51:45

in those moments like because

51:47

it's very easy just to for it to

51:49

become an ego battle between you

51:53

know your partner and your mum and

51:57

that's the thing it has to be removed

51:59

from because actually

52:01

you and your partner have to be on

52:03

the exact same team. So

52:05

I think that it's almost

52:08

enrolling your partner as part of the team

52:10

in saying, look, this is

52:13

something I've had to manage my whole

52:15

life. And I love

52:18

my mum to pieces and she's like

52:21

an amazing friend to me and she's

52:23

done so much for me. And I

52:26

also acknowledge she comes with her

52:28

challenges. And I

52:30

don't want to gaslight you that

52:33

my mum's an angel and doesn't have any of

52:35

these challenges because that will also then

52:38

your partner will like, they won't listen

52:40

anymore because they're like, don't you

52:42

see this or don't you like what? Surely

52:44

you're seeing this and you're like, no, no,

52:46

no, she's great. How dare you like that?

52:48

That's the quickest way to alienate your partner.

52:51

But if instead it's like, no, no,

52:53

no, I see it. I

52:56

trust me. I see it. In

52:58

fact, more than I see it,

53:02

I've been dealing with it my

53:04

whole life. And I've

53:07

been trying to manage this my whole life. And

53:10

as much as you're exhausted by it in

53:12

the last year, I am

53:17

borderline burned out from it from

53:19

a lifetime. And

53:24

I need you to be a teammate with

53:26

me here because

53:29

I actually need

53:31

love and I need support in

53:33

this because it's really, really hard. And

53:37

I don't maybe demonstrate always how hard

53:39

it is. You know, I

53:41

keep the emotion in because I don't have

53:43

part of this pattern is that

53:46

I've never acknowledged myself and

53:48

my own needs in this

53:51

situation. So an

53:53

extension of that pattern is me also not

53:55

communicating to you how hard this is

53:58

for me. I

54:00

need you on my team, but I also know

54:02

that I need to be on your team as

54:05

well. And I know that part of that is

54:07

me having boundaries that are

54:09

healthy with my

54:11

mom. And for me

54:13

to start to use these experiences

54:15

as an opportunity to maybe have

54:18

some boundaries that I haven't

54:20

had before and to trust

54:23

that my mom's love for me

54:25

runs deeper than my ability to

54:29

please her in this way and to

54:31

make the decision that's going to make her the

54:33

happiest, that she loves me more than that. And

54:36

that if I do make a hard decision

54:38

and I communicate that

54:40

hard decision to my mom in the

54:43

most loving way possible, that even if

54:45

she's hurt in the beginning, actually

54:47

her love for me is going to be the

54:50

thing that supersedes all of that once she's had

54:52

a chance to understand not

54:54

only that, but it

54:57

gives me, and this is the reframe

54:59

for ourselves, it gives me a chance

55:01

to reset a boundary with my mom.

55:05

That's actually going to make both all

55:07

of us a lot, lot happier in the

55:10

future because once my mom, once

55:13

I've reset this boundary with my mom and

55:16

said, mom, I love you so much and

55:18

I'm so afraid to make this decision or

55:20

I feel it's so hard to make this

55:22

decision because one of the things that hurts

55:24

me the most is hurting you and I

55:27

hate the idea that this would hurt you or it

55:29

would affect you negatively and that I

55:31

know you don't, I know the last thing you

55:33

would want is for me to be unhappy and it makes me

55:35

so unhappy to think that I've made

55:38

you unhappy, but I

55:40

need to do this because it's the

55:43

right thing to do for right now. If

55:47

we can overcome the initial guilt that

55:50

we'll feel and the

55:52

initial feeling of like, oh god, I've

55:55

hurt my mom and she's angry at me and

55:57

she's this and she's that, if we can overcome

55:59

that, then I actually

56:03

think it opens us up to a much

56:05

more real relationship with our mum. It

56:08

opens us up to a relationship that's not based

56:10

on pleasing the

56:12

parent all the time, but one

56:14

where we actually, it's just based

56:16

on love. And here's

56:18

the beautiful part about it, like this to me

56:21

is the real catharsis, is that when

56:25

we suddenly feel like we're doing something

56:27

that's good for us, and

56:30

not just good for somebody else, the

56:34

love that you can then give your mum

56:36

is so pure, because

56:39

it's not like, we've all

56:41

done that with a parent where we show up because

56:43

we feel like we should or we did something because

56:45

we think it would make them happy. And

56:48

what we're giving them in that moment is

56:51

not our like pure love. What

56:53

we're giving them is like service. But

56:57

when we stop giving them the thing

57:00

that we've kind

57:02

of brainwashed ourselves or been brainwashed by them

57:04

to think is the source of our love

57:07

with them, when we stop doing that and

57:09

we start meeting our own needs again, all

57:13

of a sudden it like frees up energy.

57:15

And then we're calling our mum or visiting

57:17

our mum or sitting and having a quality

57:19

moment with our mum just

57:21

because we love them and because

57:24

we want to. I

57:26

believe that deep

57:29

down they start to feel that

57:31

shift in energy and they

57:33

start to feel like even if they couldn't see it

57:35

in the beginning because they were just afraid of losing

57:37

something, they start to realise, oh

57:39

my God, I'm getting more back. What

57:41

I'm getting is much more pure and much

57:44

more intentional and

57:46

the basis of a different kind of relationship. So

57:49

I apologise because I feel like that

57:51

was a really long winded answer, but

57:54

I feel like it's important to add all of that

57:56

nuance because otherwise it's incomplete. Yeah, that made

57:59

sense. smashed out the park that was great

58:01

I will I'll pass that along to my friend it

58:07

sounds like you had personal experience with that particular issue well

58:10

I think that I think that it's

58:12

I've certainly had my experience of

58:17

operating so much of my

58:19

life out of a feeling

58:21

of obligation or guilt and

58:25

and not and

58:29

resentment deep down and

58:32

not realizing how close I

58:34

was to snapping and

58:36

how close I was to breaking point

58:38

at trying to manage so many different

58:40

people's feelings all the time and it's

58:42

been a pattern not with one person

58:44

in my life but with multiple people

58:46

in my life where you

58:48

know I've had to really learn to

58:52

not only set boundaries but

58:55

to feel safe and

58:59

in having set boundaries that that

59:02

people will that it's

59:05

not like I'm gonna irrevocably upset someone

59:07

to the point where they're now never

59:09

gonna be happy again that actually

59:12

something better can come in its place if

59:14

I'm brave enough to do that but that's

59:16

been a real journey for me and I

59:18

sympathize with anyone who's going through that because

59:21

it is not easy and it you

59:24

know it requires a lot of healing to be

59:26

able to do that this

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for sponsoring this episode. So, okay,

1:00:37

so one thing that I've

1:00:39

been thinking about a lot is the

1:00:42

idea of duty

1:00:46

and respect in a way,

1:00:49

I guess. You know, as you know, I'm from

1:00:51

a South Asian background, and I'm sure there are

1:00:53

people in your audience and in your programs and

1:00:55

retreats and stuff who are

1:00:58

from family backgrounds, which is

1:01:00

not necessarily tied to ethnicity, but is

1:01:02

often correlated with it. I feel like

1:01:04

I've got the most ethnic, non-ethnic family

1:01:06

in the world, because my family

1:01:09

are all from the East end

1:01:11

of London, and there's everything people

1:01:13

describe, whether they're from a

1:01:15

Middle Eastern family, Asian family,

1:01:17

like Italian family. I

1:01:20

always feel like my family's come with all

1:01:22

of that same stuff, so I get it.

1:01:24

Oh, okay. So, the

1:01:26

idea of duty and respect

1:01:28

to parents compared to, you

1:01:30

know, this more...

1:01:36

I think in Asian cultures, it's more like the parent

1:01:38

is the parent rather than a friend, and

1:01:41

that has like these concepts of duty and

1:01:43

obligation and should... Oh, I should do XYZ

1:01:46

for my mum or my grandma or my

1:01:49

family because it's just, you know, familial

1:01:51

duty in that sense comes before,

1:01:53

I don't know, a personal relationship.

1:01:57

I think, as I'm saying this, this is...

1:02:00

There's maybe a parallel in

1:02:04

Islam, for example, like duty and

1:02:06

submission to God comes way before

1:02:08

personal relationship with God. And

1:02:10

when I first heard Christians talk about personal relationship with

1:02:13

God, I was like, wait, what?

1:02:15

Like, that seems completely…

1:02:19

And I'm often surprised when people I

1:02:21

know have kind of friend kind

1:02:24

of relationships with their parents. Because

1:02:26

it's not the model of parental and child

1:02:28

relations that I'm familiar with, kind of

1:02:31

way from a South Asian background. Any thoughts

1:02:33

on any of that? I always have

1:02:35

a question there. You know,

1:02:37

sometimes it's different in

1:02:39

that it's a different culture, but maybe

1:02:41

there's some similarity. But I, you know,

1:02:45

I sometimes would

1:02:48

hear, let's say, an

1:02:50

expectation my mum had and

1:02:54

feel that same sense

1:02:56

of duty, obligation, respect,

1:02:58

and so on. And

1:03:04

then I'd be like, but wait, you

1:03:09

did this with that. Like

1:03:12

the thing that I'm… You

1:03:16

know, you prioritized that.

1:03:19

So like clearly at

1:03:23

some point you broke with mindless

1:03:28

obligation to your

1:03:30

family and did what was right

1:03:32

for your relationship. And

1:03:36

I think there's something a little bit

1:03:38

freeing about that to

1:03:41

me, because… And

1:03:43

maybe not everyone has that example

1:03:45

in their life. So I sympathize

1:03:47

with that. But it was good to almost

1:03:50

point out a little bit of

1:03:52

the hypocrisy that I was seeing that

1:03:55

my mum didn't just have some mindless obligation

1:03:58

to her mum and dad. that

1:04:01

in her trauma, she might wish

1:04:03

for me to have, you

1:04:06

know, with her. Actually, there

1:04:08

were times in her life where I can point

1:04:10

to examples where she did what

1:04:13

was right for her. Where

1:04:16

she did what felt right for

1:04:18

her new family that she was

1:04:20

building. And that

1:04:23

we are all going to

1:04:25

navigate in

1:04:27

our lives this respect

1:04:31

for the structures that

1:04:33

have been built before us

1:04:35

that already exist. And

1:04:38

that generational

1:04:40

trauma is very

1:04:43

real. And these,

1:04:47

you know, we

1:04:49

are some of us lucky

1:04:52

enough, especially I've got

1:04:55

friends in Indian families, for

1:04:58

example, where I've got

1:05:00

both types of friends. I've

1:05:02

got friends in Indian families who their

1:05:06

the generations above them, their

1:05:08

mom, their grandmother, never

1:05:12

were in any way unshackled from

1:05:16

automatic sense of obligation and

1:05:18

sacrifice that permeated every facet

1:05:20

of their lives for as

1:05:22

long as they lived. And

1:05:24

they never knew any different.

1:05:27

I also have Indian friends

1:05:29

who have seen

1:05:33

that they've had the gift

1:05:36

of a mother, one

1:05:38

friend of mine in particular,

1:05:40

has the gift of

1:05:43

a mother who has

1:05:46

actually exercised the freedom in

1:05:48

her 70s and 80s

1:05:52

that she never

1:05:54

saw of her mother. And

1:05:58

that she got the. see

1:06:00

what her mother looks like when her

1:06:02

mother is starting to heal and realize

1:06:04

that she

1:06:07

can, if she

1:06:09

chooses, have a kind of autonomy of

1:06:11

her own that she doesn't just have

1:06:13

to live in

1:06:15

relation to a man

1:06:18

or to her parents and

1:06:22

that for her, for my friend,

1:06:24

was a very healing experience because

1:06:27

she realized, oh there

1:06:29

isn't just some law somewhere that says

1:06:31

that this is the way it is.

1:06:35

There are, even the older generations

1:06:37

can sometimes surprise

1:06:39

us and if you're lucky enough to have someone

1:06:42

like that in your family, it's

1:06:44

a very, or even to know someone

1:06:46

like that, if anyone who's ever

1:06:49

seen it knows it

1:06:51

is an incredibly,

1:06:56

man, it's like one of the most powerful things

1:06:58

you can ever see is someone who's lived their

1:07:00

whole life being

1:07:02

in service suddenly realize

1:07:04

that it doesn't

1:07:06

have to be that way and that they have,

1:07:10

that they can have a

1:07:13

life of their own or a mind of their

1:07:15

own that they never realized their power, they never

1:07:17

realized what they were capable of, that they spent

1:07:19

a whole life in

1:07:22

some way being

1:07:24

constrained and never realizing what was

1:07:26

possible for them. God only

1:07:28

knows who would they have been if they

1:07:31

had had the resources or

1:07:34

the influences to be able to

1:07:36

set those boundaries or realize that

1:07:38

about themselves 20 years earlier. God,

1:07:41

who knows who they would have been or

1:07:43

what they would have done or what they would

1:07:46

have been capable of and the tragic part is

1:07:48

for so many, we'll never

1:07:50

know because it just didn't happen in

1:07:52

their time. But my point

1:07:54

with that is, if

1:07:58

we weren't lucky enough to accept experience

1:08:00

that with our elders, with

1:08:03

a grandmother who got to experience something

1:08:05

that her grandmother didn't, or a mother

1:08:07

who got to experience something that her

1:08:09

mother didn't. We

1:08:13

might actually, we might be the one.

1:08:17

It might be us who

1:08:20

is the inspiration. It

1:08:23

might be us who breaks

1:08:25

that generational cycle. And

1:08:27

being the one who breaks that generational cycle

1:08:30

of just

1:08:33

automatic or even mindless service and

1:08:36

obligation against all of our wishes

1:08:38

or all of our needs and

1:08:41

the subjugation of that inner

1:08:43

child of ourselves or that part of

1:08:45

ourselves that wants to express itself but

1:08:47

can't in that environment. Breaking

1:08:50

that is an incredibly brave thing

1:08:53

to do. You become the pioneer of

1:08:55

your family. And

1:08:57

for a long time, you'll

1:09:00

never get any thanks for that. You'll

1:09:02

only get resistance and fear and resentment.

1:09:07

And that will be in many ways the hardest part

1:09:09

about it. It's like in

1:09:12

family therapy there is a concept

1:09:15

of homeostatic pull, the

1:09:18

desire for the system to remain the same.

1:09:21

And if something changes, it will reassert

1:09:23

itself. And when

1:09:26

you're the part of the system

1:09:28

that's changing, the system will

1:09:30

work to reassert itself and change

1:09:32

you back because that's easier than

1:09:35

the system living now with this

1:09:37

uncertainty and having to somehow figure

1:09:39

out a way to evolve around

1:09:41

you, which is much more work

1:09:44

for everyone in that system. But

1:09:47

if you can be brave and stay

1:09:49

with it, knowing that you're going to

1:09:52

create a better life for yourself,

1:09:54

for those who come after you, and

1:09:56

maybe even the people that came before

1:09:58

you, if you're you're lucky,

1:10:01

if you can stick with it, it can be one

1:10:04

of the most surprising things in life

1:10:07

to learn at some point that you've

1:10:09

not only inspired the people that

1:10:12

will come after you, but you've actually in some

1:10:14

way changed the course of a

1:10:16

life from someone who came before you that

1:10:19

sees you and gets

1:10:21

a reference point for themselves they never knew

1:10:23

they would get and it starts to change

1:10:25

them too. And you will never, you will

1:10:27

not, you cannot rely on the luxury of

1:10:29

that, that is a bonus because

1:10:32

there will always be people in your life

1:10:34

that they just, it's not in them to

1:10:36

be able to make that change at this

1:10:38

point but I know that

1:10:40

for me some of the

1:10:43

ways that I have broken that cycle in my

1:10:45

own family, I can

1:10:48

tell you Ali, the changes I've seen in

1:10:50

my mum who remains to this day one

1:10:53

of my best friends in the entire world,

1:10:55

I love this woman to pieces and you

1:10:58

know we've been through so much together, we've

1:11:01

had our ups and downs, the

1:11:04

ways that I'm seeing her brain

1:11:06

today form new

1:11:09

connections and

1:11:12

evolve is one of

1:11:14

the most rewarding things in my entire

1:11:16

life and it's one of

1:11:18

the most inspiring things in my entire life

1:11:20

to see that she's making those connections at

1:11:22

her age. So I just

1:11:25

would encourage you if you haven't got the

1:11:27

reference point for someone breaking free of that

1:11:29

cycle in your life, you

1:11:34

might be the pioneer

1:11:36

in your family and rather than

1:11:38

seeing that as like you

1:11:40

know somehow this fatalistic thing like it's always

1:11:43

just this way in my family, you

1:11:45

can actually see it as a very kind of inspiring

1:11:48

and deep thing that you get

1:11:50

to be that person. I

1:11:53

love that, just turning into a therapy session

1:11:55

for my friends. You

1:11:58

should do this every week. So I've read

1:12:00

the book, No More Mr. Nice Guy,

1:12:02

about a dozen times over the last 10 years.

1:12:04

It's absolutely sick. And every time I read it,

1:12:06

I take something new away because I think I

1:12:08

have this strong, like, people-pleasing tendency, this

1:12:11

strong sense that if

1:12:14

I do things right, then the people around

1:12:16

me will be happy and that is the

1:12:19

recipe for like a chill and fulfilled life

1:12:21

and stuff. And

1:12:23

then, you know, at various points

1:12:25

in my life, I've googled how to

1:12:27

set boundaries and stuff like that. And

1:12:29

the thing I haven't quite been able to shake is the

1:12:33

word selfish, like the concept of

1:12:35

selfishness, that is putting

1:12:37

my own needs. It's like, and I think like

1:12:40

needs, like, you know, I don't really

1:12:42

need them. Like, what's like, I'm need for like food

1:12:44

and water and oxygen. I don't really have a need

1:12:46

to, I don't know, make decisions

1:12:48

about my career or make decisions about do I marry

1:12:50

or, you know, any of the sorts. They aren't needs,

1:12:52

they're wants, really. So like, is it, to

1:12:55

what extent is it selfish of me to not

1:12:57

put someone else's needs and wants ahead of my

1:12:59

own needs and wants, if that makes sense? Well

1:13:02

I tried to look at it like this,

1:13:04

that the

1:13:07

idea that I have that the things I'm

1:13:09

doing for people is

1:13:11

making them happy is in

1:13:14

itself a flawed thought.

1:13:18

Because it's not the people

1:13:20

in my life that I have with

1:13:23

all my might wished

1:13:26

that would be happy, would like,

1:13:29

because that often is why I'm showing up, right? It's

1:13:32

not just a sense of obligation. It's

1:13:34

a feeling of I really

1:13:36

want this person to be happy.

1:13:39

And if I do this for them,

1:13:41

they'll be happy. And if I

1:13:44

don't do this for them, they'll be unhappy. And

1:13:47

then that feeds into the guilt. I don't want to

1:13:49

be the source of their unhappiness because I love them

1:13:51

so much. But

1:13:54

nothing I have ever done on

1:13:58

that basis has ever... made

1:14:00

happy any of those people. Like

1:14:03

it's never worked, in

1:14:06

other words. There's

1:14:09

always a next week and the next week they're

1:14:11

the same person they were the week before in

1:14:13

spite of the thing I did the week before

1:14:16

that was designed to try

1:14:18

to make them happy. So when

1:14:21

I realized like, oh, I'm not, there's

1:14:25

almost a godlike arrogance about this

1:14:27

thing that I'm doing that I

1:14:29

think that me

1:14:32

going and picking up these

1:14:34

things that they need me to pick up or

1:14:36

that me going

1:14:39

and spending the extra hour or

1:14:41

doing this or doing that or running around like

1:14:43

a crazy person to try to make them that

1:14:46

that's actually the thing like I'm

1:14:48

the reason they're happy. If

1:14:51

you're the reason they're happy, why are they still not

1:14:53

happy? Why are

1:14:55

they still frustrated or why are they

1:14:57

still complaining about the same things? So

1:15:01

I think that that's

1:15:04

like an important pressure valve is

1:15:07

to be like, oh, I'm not making them

1:15:09

happy that they're

1:15:11

as happy as they are because of

1:15:14

so many bigger things than

1:15:16

me. There's their

1:15:19

DNA, the way they're wired, the

1:15:23

unresolved trauma of their

1:15:25

life that they're not

1:15:27

even focused on and they're not doing any

1:15:29

work to actually heal. Maybe

1:15:32

they're not even aware of it. Their

1:15:35

view on life, the fact that they're

1:15:38

making me the source of their positive

1:15:40

emotions in the first place, like

1:15:43

there's all these reasons why

1:15:45

they're not feeling as good as I

1:15:47

would like them to feel that have

1:15:49

nothing to do with me.

1:15:53

So I think that allows us

1:15:55

to stand back and put almost like

1:15:57

put down all of these things we're

1:15:59

carrying. and go

1:16:02

that's clearly not

1:16:05

the answer and

1:16:08

then to go the only

1:16:12

really sustainable way for me to

1:16:14

live is in

1:16:18

a way that allows me to bring

1:16:21

my best energy and

1:16:24

to model my best self for

1:16:26

the people that I love and

1:16:31

then to say what way of

1:16:33

living allows

1:16:35

me to do that what

1:16:37

way of operating allows me to

1:16:39

do that and

1:16:42

I think that when

1:16:44

we think of our own

1:16:47

needs I think it's about

1:16:53

saying what's I'm

1:16:56

just a person in the room like everybody

1:16:58

else like if I if I

1:17:01

imagine me

1:17:03

in a room with all of my family we

1:17:06

often think of there being you know

1:17:09

there's my I'm in a room with my

1:17:11

five family members but

1:17:13

on a human level there's six human

1:17:15

beings in that room and

1:17:20

I think it's really important for us to

1:17:22

remind ourselves of that because I often think

1:17:24

we don't think of ourselves as a person

1:17:26

in the room with needs I

1:17:28

think we think like I'm no I'm just

1:17:31

two eyes looking out onto the world and

1:17:35

everyone else is people whose

1:17:38

feelings I worry about who I

1:17:40

concern myself with whether I'm doing enough

1:17:42

for where I worry

1:17:45

if I said the wrong thing and

1:17:47

hurt someone's feelings I feel like I

1:17:49

didn't stand up for that person enough

1:17:51

in my life or whatever it is

1:17:53

those are the people I'm just me

1:17:57

well we have to start including

1:18:00

ourselves as a human being in the

1:18:02

room and going, at

1:18:05

the very least,

1:18:07

I deserve as

1:18:11

much love as

1:18:13

I'm giving to other people. I

1:18:16

deserve as much time and

1:18:18

attention as I'm giving to

1:18:20

other people. Anything

1:18:22

else doesn't make sense, especially if I

1:18:24

say I care about people. I am

1:18:26

a person, so if I care about

1:18:29

people, then I have

1:18:31

to include myself in the calculation. There's

1:18:34

no special reason I should

1:18:36

be exempting myself from my love

1:18:38

for people. But

1:18:42

I actually think we have to go one step further

1:18:44

than that, Ali, which is,

1:18:46

and this is, there's a chapter in the

1:18:48

book where I talk about this, and I

1:18:50

think it's one of the, for me, it's

1:18:53

one of the most important concepts I've ever

1:18:55

discovered because, and there's

1:18:57

various versions of this in different,

1:19:00

you know, teachings in the world, but I found

1:19:02

a way to connect to it myself that

1:19:07

really changed the way

1:19:09

I felt about self-love,

1:19:12

which was to say, it's

1:19:15

not just that I am

1:19:17

a person in the room and

1:19:21

therefore I shouldn't

1:19:23

exempt myself from the same dignity

1:19:26

and love and

1:19:28

care that I give to everyone else. It's

1:19:31

actually a little bit more nuanced

1:19:35

than that. There's an important

1:19:38

distinction between us and everyone else in

1:19:40

that room. That

1:19:43

of all the human beings in that room,

1:19:47

there's only one human being

1:19:51

that I am truly responsible

1:19:54

for. I

1:20:00

think people waste their lives trying to figure

1:20:03

out why they're special or how to feel

1:20:05

special. I think it's an utter waste of

1:20:07

life. Because

1:20:09

the truth is, as long as you're playing that game, you're

1:20:11

playing an ego game, and you'll

1:20:14

always lose because there'll always be someone who walks

1:20:16

into the room who's more

1:20:18

impressive, who's better looking, who

1:20:20

has made more money, who

1:20:22

is more talented, who's more

1:20:25

likeable, who's funnier. You're

1:20:27

just never going to win the battle of

1:20:30

trying to tell yourself you're special. But

1:20:35

there is something special about us

1:20:37

that doesn't require any of that.

1:20:40

And it's realising that of the

1:20:42

8 billion people on this earth,

1:20:46

you're the only one who

1:20:49

has custody of

1:20:52

the human that is you. And

1:20:57

that means that what's special

1:20:59

about you is not all

1:21:02

of your qualities. What's special

1:21:04

about you is the relationship

1:21:07

that you have with you, which

1:21:10

is, imagine at birth

1:21:12

you were given a human, and

1:21:15

someone told you at a time, whispered

1:21:17

in your ear at the beginning of

1:21:19

your time, and said, hey, just

1:21:21

so you know, you have one

1:21:24

job. Your

1:21:27

job, you may take on many voluntary jobs

1:21:29

in your life, but you

1:21:32

have one job that is undeniable.

1:21:35

And that is, for the rest of

1:21:37

your life, you have to take care

1:21:39

of this human. You

1:21:42

have to stand up for them, you have

1:21:44

to encourage them, you have to

1:21:46

take care of them, you have to

1:21:48

try to nurture them and their potential, you

1:21:51

have to try to give them the best

1:21:53

life you can possibly give them. That's

1:21:56

your job. You have one

1:21:58

job. Do it well.

1:22:02

Now. Most of this. Have

1:22:05

never truly understood that that's

1:22:08

our job. And we

1:22:10

have abandoned our post. when

1:22:13

I'm burn out. And

1:22:15

I feel like I'm gonna.

1:22:17

I'm over worked, I'm unhappy

1:22:19

on being mean to myself

1:22:21

and. Saying. Horrible things

1:22:23

to myself I i stop these

1:22:25

days and I same. Met.

1:22:28

What The hell? He. Had one

1:22:31

job. Where.

1:22:33

The hell have you been? That.

1:22:37

Shit, That to me turns

1:22:39

cells laws into a feeling

1:22:41

we think we're supposed to

1:22:43

have. Which by the way,

1:22:45

good luck. Good luck. Having

1:22:47

the feelings of love for

1:22:49

yourself on a daily basis

1:22:51

is not easy, but you

1:22:54

don't need the ceiling. When.

1:22:56

You realize. It's your

1:22:58

job. That loving

1:23:00

yourself isn't a ceiling is an

1:23:02

approach. And

1:23:05

and you take that job

1:23:07

seriously. You

1:23:09

don't' Catering

1:23:12

to your needs doesn't

1:23:14

look like a selfish

1:23:16

things through that lens.

1:23:18

It looks like doing

1:23:20

your job. And.

1:23:24

From their why I really believe is

1:23:26

when you take care of those needs

1:23:29

for yourself. The amount

1:23:31

the you then have to get

1:23:33

to the job you have volunteered

1:23:35

for in loving everyone else. Is.

1:23:40

It a whole different thing. As

1:23:43

great as up. the

1:23:46

so we would all mothers idea of the

1:23:48

not responsible for someone else is happiness because

1:23:50

the sloppy to do though actually make make

1:23:52

them happy. And to what

1:23:54

extent does that hold true for being responsible

1:23:56

for someone else is on the happiness as

1:23:58

well. Like could I not. A while I

1:24:00

cheated on my honor, but hey, I'm not responsible

1:24:02

for their unhappiness as a result of that. It's

1:24:05

just a story that having themselves but he blew

1:24:07

up you know that kinda. Will.

1:24:09

That's true, In some

1:24:12

way. Right

1:24:14

there. If. You look at

1:24:16

the little. If you look at life through the

1:24:18

lens of accountability. I'm

1:24:20

I'm a big believer in

1:24:23

separating accountability from from blame.

1:24:25

Right? A win, win, For.

1:24:27

Example: The way I overcome my own. Mistakes

1:24:30

or regrets in life is I. I

1:24:32

go. That was a version of

1:24:35

me that was less able or less evolved

1:24:37

than I am today. On

1:24:39

not gonna blame Need to Die.

1:24:42

For. That mistake. but I do

1:24:44

have to be accountable for fixing

1:24:46

it. right? So.

1:24:49

I I come free myself of the burden

1:24:51

of blame here. But.

1:24:55

I'd com free myself from

1:24:57

accountability. I have to make

1:24:59

myself accountable for fixing whatever

1:25:01

mistakes a past version of

1:25:03

me. Has. Done.

1:25:05

Whatever damage they've done, Whatever trials

1:25:08

they've created, I. I.

1:25:10

Don't have to take on all

1:25:13

the blame as the person living

1:25:15

today, but I have to take

1:25:17

accountability. Well. If

1:25:20

you apply that to what you

1:25:22

just said, you know I T

1:25:25

and on my partner. they're unhappy

1:25:27

that I'd I'm not responsible for

1:25:29

their unhappiness. Whoop! Fine.

1:25:33

But. You may be responsible for them leaving

1:25:35

you. If

1:25:38

they decide the. Eat

1:25:40

because of what you've done. This

1:25:43

So unhappy that they can be in this

1:25:45

relationship anymore. That their

1:25:47

version of taking control of their happiness

1:25:49

might be you not being in the

1:25:51

picture anymore. So.

1:25:54

If he, if you take the view the

1:25:57

are not responsible for their unhappiness. That's

1:26:00

fine, But. You're

1:26:02

also going to suffer the

1:26:04

consequences of not valuing their

1:26:06

happiness and not taking ownership

1:26:08

of the thing that you

1:26:10

have done that helped to

1:26:13

create the unhappiness in the

1:26:15

and that they sealed to

1:26:17

die. So

1:26:19

I. I would be looking

1:26:21

at that going. Is

1:26:23

something I've done has contributed to

1:26:25

them ceiling unhappy and unsafe. How

1:26:29

much do I value? Keeping

1:26:32

this person in my life is. What

1:26:36

are the correct is a fine

1:26:38

being truly accountable. What the corrective

1:26:40

measures the I can take that

1:26:43

can help create the conditions for

1:26:45

them to be happier you com

1:26:47

if you see it on someone.

1:26:49

It's true to say. I

1:26:52

can't. It's. It's. It's

1:26:55

both What you did was

1:26:57

you created the conditions. For

1:27:00

them. To be incredibly

1:27:02

unhappy. right? Now

1:27:06

all you ultimate in the

1:27:08

truest sense, are you responsible?

1:27:10

For their unhappiness? Well I

1:27:12

would say. Their risk.

1:27:15

but they are responsible for creating the

1:27:17

emotions they want to feel. So they

1:27:19

they're responsible for their happiness to even

1:27:21

if you did something that made them

1:27:23

unhappy. And that might mean trying to

1:27:26

find happiness with in this relationship or

1:27:28

it might mean leaving you. right?

1:27:30

But they're responsible today for

1:27:32

creating their happiness. You.

1:27:37

If you want to keep them. Better

1:27:41

make yourself responsible for creating the

1:27:43

conditions for them to be happy

1:27:45

so you can make them happy

1:27:48

either. But. You.

1:27:51

I would say if you value

1:27:53

this relationship, you better three. Creating

1:27:56

the conditions for them to be

1:27:58

happy to die. like it's your job.

1:28:03

Because if you don't, then you're

1:28:06

playing with fire because you can say I'm

1:28:08

not responsible for their emotions, but if they

1:28:11

leave you tomorrow, you will be responsible for

1:28:13

why you're alone. No,

1:28:16

no, thank you very much. This

1:28:18

has been great. Where can people

1:28:20

find out more about the book? And who's the book

1:28:22

aimed at? Like who should read the book? Probably

1:28:26

anyone who wants

1:28:28

to find love, anyone who

1:28:30

is trying to recover from lost

1:28:32

love, anyone who is

1:28:34

experiencing the pain of being

1:28:36

single and feeling like

1:28:39

I'm lonely and I don't know what to do

1:28:41

with those feelings because I really

1:28:43

want, I want to find love

1:28:45

but I feel like

1:28:47

I'm chronically unhappy. Anyone who's struggling

1:28:49

with chronic indecision in their

1:28:52

love life, really

1:28:54

this is a book about doing love better,

1:28:57

whether we have it or whether we don't. And

1:29:00

I've aimed it to be, I've written this

1:29:02

book to be a co-pilot for

1:29:05

anyone who is trying to

1:29:07

find love in their lives and

1:29:10

be happier along the way because I

1:29:12

think that a lot, anything can change

1:29:14

in our lives. We can find

1:29:17

love, we can lose it, we

1:29:19

can find ourselves in a long stint of being

1:29:21

single while we're waiting for the right love to

1:29:23

come along. Anything can

1:29:25

happen in life and I

1:29:28

believe we have to find the resources and

1:29:30

the tools to learn to be happy

1:29:33

enough in any

1:29:35

of those seasons. And

1:29:37

the book also shows you how

1:29:39

to do that through very practical

1:29:41

tools. So I invite

1:29:45

anyone at any stage of life who

1:29:47

relates to any of what I've just

1:29:49

said to read it. I'm

1:29:51

very proud of it. It's

1:29:54

called Love Life, how to

1:29:56

raise your standards, find your

1:29:58

person and live happily. No

1:30:00

matter what. And. I'm.

1:30:03

You can pre order it from any of

1:30:05

the normal or actually no by the time

1:30:07

this comes out I think is actually out

1:30:09

and ready for you can order it right

1:30:11

now been but you can order it from

1:30:13

where have you like. I would suggest that

1:30:15

you order it from Love Life boots.com. Even

1:30:18

still order it from any retailer you want

1:30:20

on that page. But what's cool about that

1:30:22

page is right now I have a really

1:30:25

special bonus were by anyone who buys a

1:30:27

book gets a ticket for free to an

1:30:29

event undoing on my force which is a

1:30:32

virtual event could find your person and it's

1:30:34

gonna take all of the ideas of the

1:30:36

book and bring them for mice in helping

1:30:38

you create a path over the next year

1:30:41

of your my to find your person. So

1:30:43

if you got to Love Life book.com. And.

1:30:46

Enter the code from your receipt whether you

1:30:48

get it from Amazon or physical bookstore. It

1:30:50

doesn't matter if you enter your code from

1:30:52

your receipt, you can get tickets to the

1:30:54

event on May fourth with me as well

1:30:56

so that website His Love Life book.com. Thanks

1:31:00

so much for the best of the promo and

1:31:02

I was elated or Usama trying to rally. Appreciate

1:31:04

you. For

1:31:06

this week absurdity type. Thank you so much for watching or

1:31:08

listening. All the links and resources that we mentioned input costs

1:31:10

A can be linked down in the video description or in

1:31:12

the sooners depending on where you're watching or listening to this.

1:31:15

if you listen to this on a podcast platform and do

1:31:17

please leave a review on the I Ching story really helps

1:31:19

other people discover the podcast or if you're watching this in

1:31:21

full Hd of okay on you tube and you can leave

1:31:23

a comment below and have any questions or an insight or

1:31:25

any thoughts about the episode that feel some and if you

1:31:27

do this episode uma to check out this episode here as

1:31:29

well which links in with some of the stuff that we

1:31:31

talked about to be upset by for wanting to hit the

1:31:33

subscribe button if you're already and I'll see you next time.