2:07

You know , in a strange way , I think that , because

2:11

of the violence and just the horror of

2:13

that it actually there

2:15

was , actually give me some resolve to keep

2:17

coming out right Like it was a I

2:20

can't go back in the closet because , because

2:23

people are being killed for being gay , like

2:25

I have to be out and I have to , I

2:27

have to live this life because that's the only way it's going to be

2:29

better for me and for

2:31

other people . Right , like there was that piece

2:33

of it that just I think you know

2:36

, for all of the horribleness of that crime

2:38

, you know that might have been one

2:40

of the good things that you know we were able

2:42

, or I was able , to take from that .

2:50

Welcome to Deep Dive with me , sean

2:52

Seafedig . I've been

2:54

thinking a lot lately about my

2:57

evolution as a human being generally , but

2:59

more specifically as a gay man

3:01

, where I come from , how it influenced

3:04

the trajectory of my life , how

3:06

I fit into the community , how I've changed

3:08

and also how the world has changed

3:10

for good and bad , and what does that

3:12

mean for my future as a gay man , as a queer

3:15

person . And I thought it would

3:17

be interesting to talk to some friends of mine who

3:19

might be in the same boat gay men in our

3:21

40s . And I thought it might be even more

3:23

interesting to record that conversation and

3:25

share it with you all , because I doubt that

3:27

we're alone in our reflection and our thoughts

3:30

. So today I'm talking

3:32

to Soda Canter , who you might remember from

3:34

an earlier episode of Deep Dive when

3:36

we talked about his artistry and

3:38

his music , and I'm also talking

3:40

to Justin Hentges , a new guest of

3:42

Deep Dive and a longtime friend of mine . This

3:45

conversation is very heavy

3:47

at times and also very silly at

3:49

times . This is a wide-ranging

3:51

conversation . We talk about Matthew

3:53

Shepard and the influence his torture

3:56

and death had on our young queer lives , our

3:58

coming out stories , racism

4:01

, misogyny and transphobia in the queer

4:03

community , where some of our greatest

4:05

support from the queer community has come from , who

4:08

our first crushes were , the utility

4:10

of kaftans and whatever

4:12

happened to Amy Grant . I'm hoping

4:14

that for some of you , maybe hearing

4:16

our conversation might resonate , maybe

4:19

even spark some similar conversations

4:21

for you with some of your friends and family , whatever

4:23

your tribe is , and if you feel alone

4:25

in these thoughts and in your world , hopefully

4:28

we , justin Soda and I , can

4:31

be a kind of proxy in some small

4:33

way for the things you consider and

4:35

you reflect on . In this

4:37

time that we're living through , when the world

4:39

can seem well , can actually be particularly

4:42

dangerous and scary , I

4:44

think it's important to make concerted efforts

4:47

to reach out to each other , to share

4:49

our stories , to be a support when we can

4:51

and to ask for support when we need

4:53

it , and so I truly

4:55

believe that conversations like this today

4:57

, outside of our heads , can

4:59

be unifying and empowering and

5:02

remind us that , even if and when we

5:05

feel lonely , we're not alone . I

5:08

want to note we do talk about violence that's

5:10

been committed against the queer community in this

5:12

conversation , and it was recorded

5:14

before the shooting at Club Q in

5:16

Colorado Springs . If

5:18

you like this episode or any episode , please

5:20

feel free to give it a like on your favorite

5:22

podcast platform and or subscribe

5:25

to the podcast on YouTube . And , as

5:27

always , if you have any thoughts , questions or comments

5:29

, please feel free to email me at

5:31

deepdivewithSeanatgmailcom

5:34

. Let's do a deep dive

5:36

, justin

5:41

Hentchis . Justin Hentchis , this

5:44

is your first time on the podcast . Thanks for being here .

5:45

How are you ? Hey Sean , Thanks

5:47

for having me . I'm doing well . How are you doing ?

5:50

I'm doing okay , and so to

5:52

counter veteran literally

5:55

, and a veteran of the podcast , how are you ?

5:57

I'm doing great . Thank you for having me back

5:59

.

6:00

So I have a drink in my hand

6:02

, and I'm not the only one , am I ?

6:05

No , I don't drink anymore

6:07

. Sean

6:09

.

6:10

What are you drinking ?

6:11

I have a glass of red wine . No ice cubes

6:14

, although I do like an ice cube in

6:16

my wine at times .

6:17

I did just hear an ice cube , though .

6:19

Yeah , it's all of mine . It's my

6:21

grandma canter special . Which

6:24

is what ? It's just basically

6:26

half a bottle of cheap white

6:28

wine and any

6:30

kind , and then you just douse it with seltzer

6:33

and like so many ice cubes and

6:36

it's a delight . Wait , what do you mean

6:38

? Half a bottle of white wine ? I mean , I

6:40

just have a gigantic glass . It's

6:43

actually not a wine glass , it's basically

6:45

just half a bottle . Yeah , I

6:47

feel I'm feeling judged .

6:50

No , I'm actually intrigued . I mean , I have nothing

6:53

against ice in wine .

6:55

Yeah , I feel . I mean , I feel like it gets a bad

6:57

rap , but it's nice to know that I'm in

6:59

a friend group right now that likes occasional

7:02

ice in their wine .

7:03

So OK , so the whole purpose of this

7:05

podcast is I wanted

7:07

to talk to the two of you about since we're all kind

7:09

of relatively the same age group to have a conversation

7:12

not about what it's like to be in , you

7:14

know , our 40s as queer folks , but to

7:17

kind of reflect on what was it

7:19

like to be queer in our 20s

7:21

, and then how does that stack

7:23

up to what it's like to be queer in our 40s

7:25

? And so my first question for you

7:27

then , soda , is would you have put

7:29

ice in your wine in your 20s ?

7:32

Absolutely . I mean , especially if somebody else was

7:34

buying like I would have . I would have drank

7:36

anything , it wouldn't have mattered . Yeah

7:38

, absolutely .

7:40

Soda , would you have done it like ? Would you have

7:42

done it just in full view of everyone , or would you have

7:44

tried to like do it on the sly Right

7:46

, like I'm going to try to get a little

7:48

bit of ice for my water glass , slip it

7:51

into the wine glass , or would you Just ?

7:52

if you know me and I think that there's many

7:54

parts of me that maybe are a little bit more

7:56

polite but like with drinking , like there's

7:58

no , I wouldn't have cared . Yeah

8:01

, I probably would have done it just to piss people

8:03

off , especially at , like , a cocktail party . Yeah

8:06

, especially in my 20s .

8:08

Let's start at well

8:10

, the proverbial queer beginning which

8:12

is coming out stories . Justin

8:14

, what's yours ?

8:15

So I came out when I was 19

8:18

. I actually came out the day that Matthew

8:20

Shepard was was assaulted

8:22

, and obviously it was a few days before

8:24

, you know , we knew anything about it , and

8:26

I , you know , just told , I told a friend of

8:28

mine , a very good friend of mine , and

8:31

from there just kind of kept telling

8:33

people , and it's not

8:36

like I don't want to say maybe

8:38

like the kind of traditional , coming

8:40

out from the vantage point of I had grown up in a

8:42

very small town , conservative

8:44

part of the country , in Northern Wisconsin

8:46

, and , you know , felt very ashamed

8:49

during high school and all of that , and

8:51

, you know , had depression , and you

8:53

know suicidal , and you know , when

8:55

I came out , had struggled for a couple of

8:57

years with all of that , and you

9:00

know . I think , though , that you know , there's nothing

9:02

like there was no , there's not like any

9:04

, you know , movie moment or anything like

9:06

that . It was just , you know , realizing

9:09

that if I didn't come to terms

9:11

with this , that I wouldn't be around to see

9:13

my 40s . And so , you

9:15

know , just taking the plunge and told

9:18

my friend Megan , and she was incredibly

9:20

supportive , and then , you

9:22

know , just started telling a few other folks and

9:24

then , you know , just kind

9:26

of went from there .

9:27

Matthew Shepard , was a big influence

9:30

on me coming out as well . I

9:32

think I had known before I

9:35

mean , I did know before I actually came out

9:37

that I was gay . But I actually

9:39

did that thing where I was like literally

9:42

, if I don't say it out loud , you

9:44

know , or once I say it out loud then

9:47

I really am . So I remember practicing

9:49

in front of a mirror saying like , okay

9:51

, I'm gay . But I actually had like a really hard time

9:53

doing it . But yeah , matthew Shepard , it was that

9:56

, that moment in my life which

9:58

is really interesting , that it was for you as well when

10:00

I thought I don't know , I just don't want to keep

10:02

pretending which is an odd thing

10:04

, right , because it was such a violent thing to have happened

10:06

that you would almost think it would scare people in .

10:09

Yeah , yeah , because I had a

10:11

friend that asked me because , you know , it was a

10:13

couple days later when all the news

10:15

reports were coming out and they had found his body

10:17

and everything . And one of my friends asked me and she said

10:19

you know , are you sure you want to do this , are you

10:21

sure that you don't want to just pretend ? And

10:23

you know , in a strange way , I think

10:26

that because of the

10:28

violence and just the horror of that

10:30

it actually there

10:32

was actually gave me some resolve to keep

10:34

coming out right , like it was a I

10:37

can't go back in the closet because , because

10:40

people are being killed for being gay , like

10:42

I have to be out and I have to , I

10:44

have to live this life because that's the only way it's going to be

10:46

better for me and for

10:48

other people . Right , like there was that piece

10:50

of it that just I think you know

10:52

, for all of the horribleness of that crime

10:54

, you know that might have been one of the one

10:57

of the good things that you know we were able

10:59

, or I was able , to take from that .

11:03

That really was a catalyzing moment . I

11:05

think I also grew up in Wisconsin

11:07

very conservative town although

11:09

to be completely honest with you , we can we can

11:11

circle back on this later but I do

11:13

feel like conservatism now , as

11:16

it relates to the queer community , is just very different to what I

11:18

was experiencing at the time , which was kind of like

11:20

you do you but keep it

11:22

quiet . And

11:25

there was something with Matthew

11:27

Shepard where I thought like I didn't know anything about

11:29

Wyoming but everything that I was hearing in the news

11:32

, and like how he died and where he died , you

11:34

know , in the middle of like some I don't know

11:36

ranch town , you know mountain

11:38

village , whatever , and just feeling

11:40

like if that kid could do it then like

11:42

what am I so afraid of ?

11:44

Yeah , yeah , no , I

11:47

totally understand that , sean , and I think that

11:49

was the thing on . It was such a catalyzing

11:51

moment for , I know , for me but also for

11:54

other folks that I knew at

11:56

the university I was at , that you know either

11:58

had already come out or that

12:00

were in that process of you

12:02

know both , both the fear

12:04

that that was there , right Cause

12:07

coming out is a very fearful process

12:09

and it's also in

12:11

a lot of ways , very joyful , but there

12:13

was also the sense of like we have

12:15

to stick together . So , and

12:18

especially , you know , I went to a smaller university

12:20

and you know a medium sized town in Wisconsin

12:22

and and you know there weren't a lot of queer

12:25

people there . But I think that event kind

12:27

of helped us , you know , realize like

12:29

, hey , we do have to look out for each other , and

12:32

you know so . So , again , it's so

12:34

tragic and horrible and

12:36

yet you know there was some some

12:39

good that came out of that horrible event . I

12:41

think , yeah , I agree , soda

12:44

, what's your story ?

12:47

Well , thank you for sharing , Justin and Sean . I

12:49

was trying to remember back to

12:51

because I remember , obviously

12:54

, the news surrounding

12:56

this . I remember , like my gut

12:58

reaction to that , which , you know , my

13:00

schooling was very different because

13:02

my dad worked at the university at the time

13:05

and so a lot of eyes were on me

13:07

and so it did kind

13:09

of create this tug of war within me

13:11

of like wanting to be like free and

13:13

kind of wild . And you

13:16

know , I'm experimenting and kind of out

13:18

there , but then also at the same time being

13:20

or attempting to be some

13:23

kind of like perfect Southern Baptist

13:25

son , and also like in

13:27

DC at that time too , like it was so strange

13:30

to be , you know , on

13:32

a Catholic Jesuit campus but then

13:34

maybe 10 minutes away at Stupont

13:37

Circle , where everything was alive and that was like

13:39

some of the first time that I saw like

13:41

men together . And

13:43

you know , for me , you

13:46

know , I go to college , I'm experimenting

13:48

, I'm having sex with men and women , I'm just doing

13:50

all of these things and you know , I'm just

13:52

so wild and free , like I'm some kind

13:54

of strange inventive hippie in

13:57

my mind , right , that's the lie that I was

13:59

telling myself , and you know then

14:01

, of course , it's like , okay , well

14:03

, that was college and let me just go

14:05

ahead and go into the Marine Corps , and

14:07

so you know . And then it's during don't

14:10

ask , don't tell , and there's that experience and

14:12

that was just basically like I mean , a

14:14

pressure cooker for me because of being

14:16

under the scrutiny and trying to prove my manhood

14:18

and all of these things . And

14:21

you know , when I came out , you know , obviously to my

14:23

parents , after I exited the Marine

14:26

Corps honorable discharge . I didn't have

14:28

to get discharged because of my sexuality . But

14:30

I think that I remember too is that the

14:33

parental conversation was

14:35

so horrible and it never

14:37

stopped , like obviously that's the reason why

14:39

we don't have one of the many reasons

14:41

we don't have a relationship . There are other topics

14:43

, but there were all these pockets . Like I had

14:46

to tell my Marine friend group

14:48

, I had to tell my like university

14:50

friend group , I had to tell the people at work

14:52

, and all of them had such varied

14:55

reactions Like

14:57

my university counterparts , like

15:00

I was expecting a lot of support

15:02

in spaces that I did not receive . It

15:04

kind of became like a joke . And it's

15:06

also like kind of this rich

15:08

white mentality too , of some of the people

15:10

that have trust funds , of like not understanding what

15:12

I was going through . From my socioeconomic

15:14

background and then my work , friends were probably

15:17

because they didn't really know me were

15:19

the most supportive , just

15:21

because they understood the struggles from transitioning

15:23

out of the Marine Corps and then now coming out

15:25

of both very traumatic . And

15:28

then , of course , like the Marines , all the Marines

15:30

were like I'm fucking pissed at you , like

15:33

why couldn't you have told us this exactly like while

15:35

you were in , because then we could go to

15:37

all those clubs with you and all those clubs

15:39

have straight single women . And

15:41

I was like what , what like

15:43

, what is this ? Like they were just they could

15:45

care less . Like I was so shocked

15:48

that , like my Marine friend

15:50

group was the most supportive out

15:52

of all of these individuals . Yeah

15:54

, I mean , I think that it really set up my

15:57

life overall and

15:59

you know , kind of through my twenties

16:02

and thirties and now forties , just kind

16:04

of thinking back of like what that time was

16:06

like , I really wish I had done things differently

16:08

and not given a fuck In

16:11

the name of like . Obviously , like you both shared

16:13

this , like Matthew Shepard , and thinking about all

16:15

of the people that sacrificed themselves , I

16:17

wish I cared a little bit less . But

16:19

you know , I think you live in Lawn .

16:22

I'm remembering back on the interview

16:24

that we did for your

16:26

music . You said you know , and

16:29

so I did what all you know gay boys from

16:31

small towns do . At the time I joined the military

16:33

and I actually had a

16:35

visual reaction to that because I was like that

16:38

is the last thing I would have done . I

16:41

would have actively avoided joining

16:43

the military . And this was around the same time

16:45

and I'm wondering , justin , was

16:48

that something you considered was joining the military ?

16:50

Oh , yeah , you did . Yeah

16:52

, oh , totally yeah , I mean , I

16:54

know I would not have been able to be a

16:56

Marine because my dad was

16:59

a Marine and I remember at

17:01

some point in time when growing up

17:03

and he said , you know something

17:05

to the effect of if you're going to be in the military , that's fine

17:07

, but you're not going to be a Marine . And I never

17:09

, you know . Later I understood more

17:11

what that meant because of his experience and

17:14

Vietnam and everything . But

17:17

yeah , no , I remember in high school

17:19

thinking about it , you know , going into the Navy

17:21

or the Air Force or something like that , and

17:24

part of it , I think , was the escape

17:26

, right , it felt like that was a way

17:28

to get out of my

17:31

town and out of Wisconsin and out

17:33

of this life . That

17:35

, while you know , for everybody

17:37

looking in , I had , you know , I had a perfect childhood

17:40

and you know my parents are

17:43

still together , right , like I have , you

17:45

know , an older sister , like everything like

17:47

was picture perfect . I was just battling

17:49

this large secret , and

17:51

so I think for me the thought of the military

17:53

was that was that escape

17:55

piece and

17:57

so , and also the you know , I mean I work for the government

18:00

now , so it was . You know , I'm in public service

18:02

, so there was a public service aspect of

18:05

that as well . But then for me

18:07

it was the don't ask , don't tell , because

18:10

that was , you know , that was right about

18:12

the time I was , you know , when Clinton was there

18:14

and I was in high school and starting

18:16

to think about it that there was a part

18:18

of me that was like , oh , I don't , I'm

18:21

not going to be able to do this , like

18:23

, even at that stage I knew that I was

18:25

queer and I knew

18:28

that I wouldn't be able to keep

18:30

that secret for a

18:32

long time , and so that's , I think , part

18:34

of what kept me from , you know , pursuing

18:37

that more .

18:38

I guess I just assumed this was that

18:40

the way that I thought about this was probably universal

18:43

that to me , the military

18:45

was a threat . So towards the end of high school , we're talking about

18:47

, like what are your future plans right ? Going to university

18:49

, going into a trade , going into the military

18:51

, et cetera and all

18:54

of the people that were lining up for military . I was like

18:56

not my people , right , like

18:58

these are people that , and not just not my people

19:00

. They scared the shit out of me . I

19:02

saw them as like an existential threat to

19:04

me . So the idea of joining the military

19:07

was just off the table from the beginning .

19:09

That is really interesting and I love what Justin

19:11

just said because that is it was

19:13

that you know , I was a first

19:15

generation college student , made

19:17

it out and for me

19:20

, the university like you

19:22

know , I'm around all these people with trust funds

19:24

, with actual real money and , you

19:26

know , just living their dreams , going to Europe

19:28

, doing all these things that I had dreamed

19:30

of , and it's start . You start to infiltrate your

19:33

mind , that it's possible for you , you

19:35

know , like to live that life , go to New York and

19:37

do all of these great things . I thought I was going to work

19:39

in advertising and I mean I almost

19:41

got like this job at Ralph Lauren and then it didn't

19:43

pan out . And then I was panicked because

19:46

I then I was stuck at home

19:48

and just like what Justin just said , like

19:50

, yeah , I was like I need

19:52

to get the hell out of here or I'm going

19:54

to die , like I'm not going to be able to stay

19:56

here because it was under my parents' roof

19:59

, it was back in town and

20:01

basically , like my dad was like you should get a job

20:03

at Pepco and stay here and

20:05

have like I can't do this , like I can't

20:07

do it , and so I caught a recruiter

20:10

up , I did it and it was

20:12

under , you know , like I was playing a very

20:14

dangerous game , like don't

20:16

ask them to tell my time in the Marine Corps . I loved

20:18

the experience . Like you

20:21

know , I was exploring my sexuality

20:23

, like going out and doing all the things

20:25

, but then also like getting up the next day at 4.30

20:27

in the morning to PT and do all

20:30

the stuff , but for me it was like

20:32

a way out . I will always

20:34

say that the Marine Corps saved my life and

20:36

I think that it specifically it saved my queer

20:38

life .

20:39

I know you've talked about this soda previously

20:41

, but I still want to hear it . But let's start , Justin

20:43

, with you . How did you tell your family and how did

20:45

they respond ?

20:47

Well , so I told my sister first

20:49

so my sister is eight years older than I am

20:51

I was home . So

20:53

I came out in October to

20:55

my friends in college and then the next summer

20:57

I was home and this is , this

20:59

would have been between my sophomore and junior year of

21:01

college . And I was home and I

21:04

called my sister because

21:06

I was going to tell my

21:08

parents on Independence Day . I

21:12

wanted to tell her first just

21:15

this story , like hello , queer right

21:17

, because I was listening to

21:19

Martina McBride .

21:21

Oh my God , please play it in the background . Sean

21:23

Go on .

21:24

Justin , I can't licensing .

21:25

but Martina , if you're listening , you know over

21:28

and , over and over and I was psyching myself

21:30

up and I called her and-

21:32

.

21:33

Martina or your sister .

21:35

Oh my God , if I was calling Martina , that would have been , I

21:37

would not be sitting here on the phone with you all . No

21:41

, I called my sister and I said you know , I have something

21:43

to tell you , and I don't exactly

21:45

remember the words I used with her

21:47

, but you know how I said it . But I

21:49

said , you know , I told her I was gay and she

21:51

started to cry and

21:53

she said I love you . And

21:56

then I lost it . Like at that point I

21:58

just lost my mind , right , cause that was not

22:00

. You know , she

22:02

was very supportive . She was very , very worried

22:05

for me . She was very worried about

22:07

how my parents would react . And

22:09

you know , was I prepared

22:11

? You know she asked me questions

22:14

about like was I prepared to be able to

22:16

, you know , go back to school ? And how

22:18

was I going to support myself on

22:21

the ? You know the job I had and you

22:23

know all of that kind of stuff . You know she

22:25

was like what happens if mom and dad aren't supportive

22:27

. And so I got actually

22:29

mad at her because I was like wait

22:32

a second , today is July 3rd . I'm telling you

22:34

, you're telling me all of these things . Tomorrow's July

22:36

4th , I have to tell mom and dad on Independence

22:38

Day cause . That's the plan and Martinez

22:41

in the song about it you know like come

22:43

on , but I actually then

22:45

I didn't tell them . I waited , and

22:48

I was actually back

22:51

at college a few weeks later

22:53

, that summer and I went on a date

22:55

with this guy . And you know

22:57

this was like cause in high school I didn't date

22:59

, like I went out , you know . But

23:01

it wasn't . It was fake , right , it was the show

23:03

that you put on right . The first couple

23:05

of dates I ever went on , like every single one

23:08

I was like , oh my God , this is going to be the person I married

23:10

. Right , I was going through like the teenage , you

23:12

know , 12 year old experience , but I was

23:14

in my 20s . So I went on this date

23:16

with this guy and it was horrible and

23:18

all I could think about was like I really want

23:21

to call my mom and tell her I was on a bad date

23:23

. And so the next morning I got up

23:25

and I drove back to my parents' house

23:27

, which was about three hours away , showed

23:29

up unannounced my dad had already gone to work

23:31

, my mom was home , so

23:33

I just hung out with her and we gardened

23:36

and we did other stuff , and the whole time she

23:38

was like why are you here ? So my

23:41

dad got home and he came home early

23:43

, which it took me a while to actually

23:45

realize . He like came home at like three or

23:47

four o'clock in the afternoon , which was

23:49

early for him , and so my mom obviously

23:52

called him or something , and he came home

23:54

and they were all going to like

23:56

, well , let's go to dinner . And I was like I have something to tell

23:58

you . And so I sat down I kind

24:00

of sitting down at the dining room table

24:02

, and I pulled out my notepad

24:05

where I had written everything I needed to

24:08

say down .

24:09

Oh , organized , I was like

24:11

yeah .

24:14

And so I just basically went through

24:16

this like speech and probably

24:19

about two minutes of who

24:21

the hell knows what I was saying , until I finally

24:23

got to the word gay and I stopped

24:26

and I just kept looking at it and to show

24:28

them what you said . Telling my friends was

24:31

one thing , but like this was real , like

24:35

if I say this to them , like everything

24:37

changes . I can always find

24:39

new friends , but I can't , like

24:42

this is you know . And

24:44

so I said you know , I'm gay . And

24:46

I started to cry and my

24:48

dad was crying and my mom just was sitting

24:51

there with this quite frankly

24:53

, bitch , look on her face looking at

24:55

me . And I got

24:57

done and I said something like if I need

24:59

to leave , I will call you

25:01

in three days . Cause I was really worried , like if they

25:03

started yelling or something like that I would

25:05

. I was like I need to be able to leave

25:07

, but I also want to make sure that , like I

25:10

can connect with them . Right , like there was all that

25:12

. And my dad just he's like

25:14

Justin , why would you need to leave

25:16

? And I'm like , well , I don't

25:18

know how . And he's like we love you , you're

25:20

our son . This is shocking

25:23

, I didn't expect this

25:25

, but I love you . And

25:27

my mom is sitting there with this little

25:30

smirk on her face and she

25:32

said I love you . And she's like and

25:34

I've known , and I'm like what

25:36

do you mean ? You knew ? She's like I

25:38

caught you trying on your sister's prom

25:41

dress when you were 10 years old and

25:43

I'm like well , why didn't you say something ? She's like

25:45

you needed to figure this out for yourself . And

25:47

so it was like I mean , in some ways it was

25:49

the perfect kind of for me with

25:51

my family , the perfect kind of . You know

25:53

, I told them we didn't talk about it for

25:55

another like two years , basically , like I

25:57

never went on a bad date and then called my mother

25:59

right Cause it was like . You know , then

26:02

it was the awkwardness of oh , now I'm

26:04

talking to my parents about my love life , like I don't want to

26:06

do that .

26:07

But I mean , like just being gay , it wasn't just woven

26:09

into just your life with them .

26:11

It was , but we , just we didn't talk about

26:13

it . But we also didn't talk about , like I realized

26:15

, with my sister , like until she was

26:18

like in a very serious relationship with a

26:20

person who became her husband , she never talked

26:22

about her boyfriends , like we just have that

26:24

kind of , I guess , waspy

26:26

type of , we just don't talk about it .

26:28

But I mean , like you know , we're on the dinner table like

26:30

hey , so are you dating anyone ?

26:33

No , no no , we do now

26:35

. It's fascinating because that is one of

26:37

the things I think that has been . So

26:40

I moved from Washington DC two

26:42

years ago to to coma

26:44

, washington , and during that time

26:46

when I left DC , I had I spent

26:48

eight weeks at my parents' house in Wisconsin

26:50

and three of them were with my

26:53

parents there and we

26:56

we had not spent that much time together

26:58

, probably since I was in high school or

27:01

maybe the that first year after college , and

27:03

I was really worried about it because I was like gosh

27:05

, are we gonna fight ? Like you know , I'm in their

27:07

house again , like what's going on ? And

27:10

it was . It was one of the

27:12

best things that has happened in my life was getting

27:14

to spend that time with them , and partly

27:16

because , like , we started seeing each other as individual

27:19

adults right , like as , oh , they're

27:21

not , they are my parents and they're

27:24

these individuals with these personalities

27:26

and these you know everything

27:29

. And they were , I think , saw the same

27:31

in me and the experience I had been going

27:33

through and why I was leaving DC and moving

27:35

and all that , and so it took a while for

27:37

us to , you know , kind of

27:39

weave all of that together and

27:42

though I also never after

27:44

I came out . I never had to . I never felt I had

27:46

to hide anything from them . I think

27:48

it was me , it was more on me . I didn't tell

27:51

them and they were respecting me

27:53

. You know , they're

27:56

kind of philosophy as well If he's

27:58

gonna tell us something , he's gonna tell us something , and if

28:00

not , it's his life . And you know

28:02

, we support him . And so now I

28:04

will say this I never . Unfortunately

28:06

, my grandfather died and my grandfather

28:08

was a big influence on my life and he

28:11

died before I was able to tell him and

28:13

I never actually said the words to my

28:15

grandmother . But it was a couple

28:17

of years after I came out where the birthday

28:19

cards definitely took a

28:22

turn , because

28:24

all of a sudden they were like that , birthday

28:26

cards that are like the half-naked men

28:28

. Oh , come on

28:30

Seriously . And I'm like

28:33

I told my mom . I'm like did you tell grandma

28:35

? And she's like no , she's like that's your thing to

28:37

tell it's . You know

28:39

when you're comfortable . I'm like grandma is sending me

28:41

birthday cards of half-naked men . My

28:44

mom's like well , maybe grandma found

28:46

you in one of her dresses . And I'm like , god damn it , mom

28:48

, your mom said that .

28:51

So that was my

28:53

family . So Soda , your story is

28:55

very different .

28:56

Just a little bit . And also I just want

28:58

to like say something on

29:01

the record . Is that , justin

29:03

, like you deserve to be in dresses , like

29:05

I mean it's always a look you bring

29:07

it Like , so I'm glad that I mean

29:09

it's . I mean I have more of like a hobbit

29:11

body , but like Justin's like tall and very

29:14

, very handsome , like so I

29:16

don't see what the problem is . Yeah

29:19

, so my experience was different

29:21

. A , I wasn't as organized as Justin

29:23

. I did not , you know , pick

29:25

the 4th of July .

29:27

Let's say , most people were not as organized

29:29

as Justin , yeah .

29:31

Yeah , I mean , I did not have a notebook , like

29:33

when I , you know , I was living in DC

29:35

. I had my like sort of first boyfriend

29:37

, which you know , ugh , like really bad

29:40

taste in men and

29:43

thought that this was after . You know , I transitioned

29:45

out of the Marine Corps . Like the

29:47

law couldn't come after me and so I

29:49

decided to drive home . My

29:51

guys was like well , I'm driving home

29:54

from DC to Southern Maryland , I just

29:56

need to pick up my mail , like , and so

29:58

that's like .

29:58

My mom was like why are you here ? M-a-l-l-e

30:01

.

30:01

Yeah , yeah , wow

30:04

. I mean , you know I

30:06

will say St Mary's County has some like good book

30:08

in there . You just have to

30:10

really dig deep . But I think that

30:12

you know I came home , you know , which was kind of

30:14

out of the norm for me to do , but like she

30:16

, I could tell like that she was

30:19

questioning it . I said , oh , I didn't need to pick

30:21

up the mail and I need to tell you something . And I

30:23

just remember she just

30:25

sat there and I was staring at me

30:27

and you know I was

30:30

like well , I feel really good you know like because

30:32

obviously it's all built up and it's

30:34

I had taken off like

30:36

three hours of work , right , like , just

30:38

, like , just , it's like a plan . It's like , well

30:41

, I have to do it on this Wednesday , because I've already

30:43

said that I'm going to do it . I have to do

30:45

it . And so you know , I just remember

30:47

her like staring . He's staring at me and

30:49

she's like , okay , well , please don't , don't tell your

30:51

father . And you know it was this whole thing and

30:53

I left . I remember , like

30:55

driving back to DC and I

30:58

felt that went pretty well

31:00

, like you know , like in my mind , like

31:02

you know , it's kind of like okay , like not great

31:04

, not great , but like not as bad

31:06

. And by the time that I got

31:08

home , like I just

31:10

knew , like I mean , the phone messages

31:13

started coming to my place of work . My mom

31:15

was screaming at me and it was like

31:17

for months leaving voicemails

31:20

calling me a motherfucker , which was really just

31:22

wrong , wrong for a variety

31:24

of reasons . It was just very aggressive

31:26

and also like manipulative and

31:28

like crying and sobbing and the whole thing

31:30

. And then , obviously , like I already shared

31:32

the story about how you know , essentially the CIA

31:35

like outed me to my father because

31:37

of my JR's

31:39

bar tab .

31:40

Damn it , justin JR's is always Well

31:42

, that's yeah . Well , we have to

31:44

talk about your judgment in general there .

31:47

Exactly . Listen , I am

31:49

a moth to the flame for $8, . You know

31:51

power hour , but you

31:53

know like . And then , like , my dad

31:56

and mom have very specific questions with

31:58

like . But do you know that

32:00

you're ? Have you experimented with this

32:02

? And I was like , are you asking like

32:04

, did I get to second base ? Like , do you know

32:06

what I mean Like ? What do you mean Like

32:08

? Do you mean like butt stuff

32:10

? Or like , what do you mean Like ? You know

32:12

like , like a waterfall

32:15

of dicks in my mouth , like

32:17

I'm not sure what you're looking for

32:19

. And I just had to say yes , yes to

32:21

all of them , yes to all of it , a

32:23

through F . Yes , like , yes , I've done

32:25

it all . And my , I

32:27

just remember like , how I mean we

32:30

just went back and forth . They were like , please don't tell anyone

32:32

, please don't tell anyone . And I , you know , I felt

32:34

like shame because they were so torn up

32:37

and my mom would call me and

32:39

saying that , like the shotgun

32:41

that they kept in , like his closet , like

32:43

they lay there at night holding each other

32:46

and crying and saying that they're going to like blow

32:48

their heads off because their son is gay , and it's just

32:50

like all of this stuff . And I would

32:52

love to say that , like you know , it lasted

32:54

for , you know , like four or five months

32:57

and then it stopped . No , it just kept going

32:59

. It just kept going and going and going until

33:01

we just didn't talk anymore

33:03

. I started like losing

33:05

my hair , like during that time , just because of fucking

33:08

genetics , and I , you know , shaved

33:10

my head like in the Marine Corps

33:12

and I just kept it . Like Justin never knew

33:14

me with hair , like so , like you know , the thing is

33:16

is that I'm a beautiful bald man

33:18

and , of course , I come

33:20

home to Southern Maryland , like , and it's

33:22

my mom's birthday , so it's like we all

33:24

go to the Olive Garden , which is the fanciest

33:26

thing in town . And you know , I

33:28

didn't really understand that what Olive Garden

33:31

actually was . But you know , until

33:33

I , like went to an actual , real Italian

33:35

restaurant you know , it was so funny

33:37

because she pulled me aside of the parking

33:39

lot because I wore like

33:41

a v-neck , like sweater , but without

33:44

like an undershirt , like just , I don't know

33:46

, I don't think it looked that risque , and

33:48

she goes is this a gay thing

33:50

? I

33:54

was like what do you mean ? And she was just like

33:56

I . She was like that you're not wearing

33:58

a shirt , and she was like also your hair , and I'm like

34:00

mom , I'm going bald . And she

34:02

was like , is that because you're gay

34:04

? And I

34:07

was like no , and all these

34:09

conversations are always so weird . She

34:11

would have these moments where and

34:13

he did too of like , well , I know what

34:15

you're doing in DC and I'm like what she was

34:17

like with your martinis in the clubs

34:20

and I was like I think

34:22

you're missing . I mean sure , maybe , but like

34:24

this is not sex in the city . Like what are you

34:26

? Like what are what are you visualizing

34:29

? That that's not my life . I mean , maybe

34:31

it was sometimes , but like not really in the way

34:33

that they thought that it was . But yeah , I

34:35

, I am bald because of

34:37

all the water fallout dicks . That's what happened

34:39

.

34:41

I had a dime for every , for every time you

34:43

had a waterfall of dicks .

34:45

Yeah , yeah , sean

34:47

never invites me back , ever again

34:49

. I .

34:51

Literally am in my mind envisioning

34:53

an actual waterfall . That

34:56

is just dicks .

34:58

Yeah , and just to say too is like that's I

35:00

meant waterfall of dicks . Okay

35:02

, if you watch for a housewise of Orange County

35:05

, it was like just like the stack of vaginas

35:07

, but that's I .

35:11

Don't even know how to bring this back . Well , you

35:13

know , so that's funny , like

35:15

, obviously that's . It's horrible

35:17

that your parents had that reaction and and you

35:20

know , I think there's a , there's a lot of people

35:22

that that's how their families react

35:24

and , you know , in a non supportive way

35:26

, which is , you know , I'm really

35:28

unfortunate because it just there's

35:30

so much of you know , just life

35:33

that can be better if we just treated

35:35

each other a little bit nicer , right ? But

35:38

I will say that's what with my family , as

35:41

you were talking , I was just thinking about it , like I

35:43

remember you know my parents

35:45

. They said it was my you know my

35:47

story to tell , my my you know

35:50

news to share . And

35:52

you know they also did tell

35:54

some of their friends , like they're very

35:56

good friends , hmm , and

35:58

at first , when , because somebody came up to

36:00

me in a wedding and said , oh , how are you doing ? I'm like , oh , I'm

36:03

fine . And they're like , oh , any news ? And I'm like , no

36:05

, everything's good . And they're like , oh , your dad

36:07

said you were gay . It's

36:11

a little brute force , but okay , yeah , but

36:14

it was . It was funny because , like

36:16

at the time , I was like , oh , why are they telling people

36:18

? And then now I look back on it and it is kind

36:21

of the . There were signals that

36:23

I don't think I knew at the time that they were

36:25

supportive , right that they were , you

36:27

know , in my corner cheering me on

36:30

, it just was the very northern

36:32

Midwest , like , you

36:34

know , silent way of doing it , which

36:37

I wish everybody had more of that experience

36:39

because it , you know , just having this

36:41

family support , because I think that was , you

36:44

know , that probably in the end coming

36:46

out and then actually having support around

36:48

me was probably what helped , you know , get me through

36:50

my mental health issues that I was undergoing

36:52

and and you know , probably is what

36:54

saved my life . You know , like with soda

36:56

, it was the Marine Corps . For me it was , I think , having

36:59

that support network that I didn't

37:01

even really know was there at the time I

37:03

was probably too there's , just too naive

37:05

or too not , you know , to wrapped up in

37:07

my own crap to Actually see

37:09

what see it happening . But but as

37:11

I look back , it definitely was there .

37:14

You know this makes me Think of something

37:17

else . I am increasingly Grateful

37:20

for my upbringing , in a way that

37:22

I wasn't when I didn't live on the coast , and

37:24

that's because so , like when I moved

37:27

to Milwaukee which I'm sure

37:29

to you know anyone in , you know , like

37:31

New York , chicago , la , miami

37:33

is a backwater but it

37:35

was a big city to me . So when I moved

37:37

to Milwaukee and then I'm gonna

37:40

started spending much more time in like Chicago

37:42

I would hang around with like

37:44

queer folks and think , you know , like I was

37:46

, I'm , you know I finally arrived and with my people

37:48

, but you know they were constantly calling me out

37:50

like I wasn't using the right language or , you

37:53

know , I didn't know how to talk about being gay or

37:55

, you know , was queer the appropriate word to use

37:57

or not ? And I

37:59

think a lot of that has to do with I just

38:01

grew up in a place where

38:04

nobody knew the language , nobody

38:06

knew how to , you know , navigate

38:08

these types of relationships right . And

38:10

I think now , in our hyper polarized

38:13

society , I actually am really grateful

38:15

for that because I have a lot more grace

38:17

for people that come from Conserve

38:20

, socially conservative areas , because

38:23

there's a there's a difference between

38:25

being hateful and

38:27

not knowing something . Yeah

38:29

, and I think we often castigate people

38:32

for not knowing something as being hateful

38:34

, when they're really just doing their best and

38:36

they just don't know .

38:37

Yeah yeah , I agree with you . I mean

38:39

, I think you know , I even think about it . I

38:41

mean , some of the stuff that I , you know

38:43

, even a , you know a decade ago , would

38:46

say , you know , in relation

38:48

to , like , the transgendered community , right , like

38:50

some of the wording I would use at that time

38:52

was , was born of , but

38:54

out of ignorance and and because

38:56

, especially the you know , I think sys , a

38:59

white , male , gay society is , we're

39:01

just , we're bred to just be assholes

39:03

. In some ways , I like that idea

39:05

of there's the hatefulness

39:08

that is out there , right , there's the people that

39:10

are , you know , willfully ignorant

39:12

to , you know , say things

39:14

and then when they're told that they , you

39:17

know what , what it means to somebody or the impact

39:19

it has , they don't care . Like , those people , I think

39:21

in some ways are beyond what

39:23

I would will deal with , because I

39:25

am right , I'm still learning at this age , right , like

39:28

I'm almost 44 , and there's

39:30

still stuff that I'm learning about being

39:32

in the queer community , and I

39:34

think you're you're you made a really good

39:36

point that if , if you're hateful

39:39

because of you know , you're

39:41

just hateful , or you have a willful ignorance

39:43

, like that's really hard , but if it's you just didn't

39:45

know , you didn't know . You didn't grow up with people

39:48

that you know we're queer , you didn't grow

39:50

up with people from different races

39:52

and so , like you're learning that and if you're willing

39:54

to learn that you know , those are

39:56

the people I think that I would , I want

39:58

to actually engage with because you

40:00

can have a conversation .

40:02

You'll learn something from it .

40:03

They'll learn something and you know I would learn something

40:05

from it as well , so I agree with that so

40:08

this is a good segue , and

40:10

I think you even mentioned this a little bit . So the

40:12

gay male community , especially

40:14

the white gay male community , can be

40:16

particularly harsh . We

40:19

eat our own and I guess I'm wondering

40:21

how that's informed , how you kind of

40:23

interact with the community , how you fit into the community

40:25

, how you feel about yourself or

40:27

how you've kind of approached your own development as

40:29

a queer person .

40:30

Oh my , gosh , can I have like a five

40:33

minute like drink break before I can

40:35

? Justin

40:38

and I have been part of Very

40:40

specific communities , like that's how we

40:42

know each other in DC , in

40:44

DC , and I think that

40:46

, looking back , like I don't really

40:48

have I mean , apart from the folks

40:51

that I'm talking to right now I don't

40:53

have a lot of like male

40:55

, like gay friends like in

40:57

my life and and I think that

41:00

for me there's like different pockets

41:02

, right . Like I think you know , like in

41:04

my 20s you know Slet

41:07

shame for hooking up too much or whatever

41:09

it might be . You know , as people do , like

41:11

in their 20s , like by male

41:14

members of the gay community

41:16

, like . And then in my 30s

41:19

you know like kind of in

41:22

this community , that just never

41:24

part of looking back , like we were

41:26

part of a football league and I

41:28

don't maybe Justin disagree like I look

41:30

back at that time and obviously the towel . I met Justin

41:32

, the time that my husband

41:35

and there are a lot of other people that

41:37

were wonderful . Looking back

41:39

, though , like it was just so ruthless

41:41

and you know , in my 20s

41:44

, like I was not pretty enough

41:46

, too short , like you know , like

41:48

too fat , whatever . And then in my 30s

41:50

, too old , too short , right

41:53

like not athletic enough , like

41:55

it was just you just could never win

41:57

, and I felt like it was so universal that

41:59

that I mean that's that's why I was drawn to

42:01

be friends with Justin the first place , because he was just more

42:04

accepting , right and a little bit more

42:06

like Open-hearted . And

42:08

I feel like I've never

42:10

quite found my place in the

42:12

queer community and the way that I would like

42:14

to like . I found it more vicious

42:17

and maybe it's because of my own Approach

42:20

, like , but it also , in turn , like

42:22

made me mean , like I was , had also

42:24

been mean to people in different pockets because of

42:26

what I was taught or

42:28

what you know . I was like survival of the fittest

42:30

and looking and kind

42:32

of talking to younger

42:35

Queer people like they're

42:37

different , maybe similar , but also very

42:39

different experiences too , where there's just

42:41

a little bit more Understanding

42:43

or willingness to be wrong and self-correct

42:46

and a little bit more body positivity

42:48

. You know I , you know I love my body

42:50

, like there's nothing wrong with it , it

42:53

is what it is and I'm proud of it . But

42:55

like I was just taught to like always

42:57

want to you , especially

43:00

by gay men , to

43:02

find ways to

43:04

seek something else . It

43:07

was just always like somebody was more gorgeous

43:09

or somebody was hotter or somebody was better

43:11

. I just could never win . And

43:14

then I shit on the people that are maybe

43:16

outside of me , that could have been great friends

43:18

, like it's just a never ending cycle .

43:20

I totally , totally get that . And

43:23

first off , I mean

43:25

thank you for saying that I have an open heart . That's

43:27

very nice of you , because

43:29

I don't feel that I feel like I am

43:32

. I feel

43:34

like I'm an asshole . No , but I feel

43:36

like you know , to

43:38

what you said , I think that

43:40

I'm suspicious of

43:43

any gay man Because

43:46

that's how I felt like same thing right

43:48

in the early 20s . You're experimenting

43:50

of like going on dates or hooking

43:52

up or your first relationships

43:55

or whatever , and you know it's

43:57

really I think it's hard to kind of

43:59

figure out how to find friends

44:01

that

44:04

don't start off as sexual friends , right

44:06

, like , and or

44:08

in some way evolve into it or some

44:10

way evolve into it . Yeah , yeah . And

44:12

so I don't have same thing , I don't

44:15

have a . Well , up until I moved

44:17

to Tacoma , I didn't have a lot of

44:19

gay male friends .

44:20

I have maybe a handful that are people that

44:22

I actually trust and you

44:24

know would True , because it does feel to me , justin

44:26

, like wherever you go , wherever you land

44:28

, you just happen to like blend into the

44:31

queer community .

44:32

Which is so funny because I never feel like I do

44:34

I like it actually

44:36

gives me anxiety to think about . It's

44:38

one of the things I really liked .

44:40

I noticed about you in Milwaukee . One of the things I

44:42

was actually attracted to as a person that

44:44

I'd like really looked up to is I was like here's this guy

44:46

no offense , but I was like here's this guy that

44:48

comes from like bum , fuck Wisconsin and

44:52

he's like so comfortable in

44:54

his own skin and he's just like he's you

44:56

know he does himself and he's just like super

44:59

cool with that and like anyone

45:01

that has a problem with it , go fuck him . You know like

45:03

and I don't mean that literally , you know , I

45:05

was just like I was super impressed

45:07

. So to hear that you had you

45:09

have anxiety about that is it's

45:11

not surprising , but it's surprising .

45:14

Yeah , no , that's so funny to hear

45:16

, sean , because I mean because honestly

45:18

, like sort of with you , like I mean

45:20

part of the reason we became , you know , first

45:23

, I think , became friends was one where

45:25

we are two people that get places

45:28

early and so we had the practice , you know

45:30

, before everybody else , and two because

45:32

you know we both like get crazy

45:35

competitive and would scream , you

45:37

know things on the sidelines to our teammates

45:39

because you know , I have no athletic

45:42

ability but I can yell really loud and

45:44

so I thought you know with you , so I thought

45:46

you were , you know , kind of the same thing of just

45:48

being able to acclimate to everything and

45:50

and same with you , sean , and

45:52

so it's funny that we all have that kind

45:54

of experience . But also inside

45:56

we're having that , you know that other termals

45:59

or whatever . But I do think you

46:01

know , when sort of you said one thing about the

46:03

, the body positivity or the you

46:06

know being , that is the one thing I've loved

46:08

about getting older is like I

46:10

don't , just don't give a shit if I have abs

46:12

, I don't need them , and for people

46:14

that work out and that's what they want , that's great

46:16

, but that's not me and and like

46:19

to be comfortable like that . I just think

46:21

is is one of the things that I've really enjoyed

46:23

about . Like , being out of my twenties and thirties

46:25

is like well .

46:26

I'm in my forties .

46:27

I'm supposed to have a dad bond now . Right Like so

46:29

, here it is .

46:31

So did you agree with that ? I , I

46:34

do . I mean , I think that for

46:36

me I don't , and I do

46:38

work out , like I run , I lift

46:41

weights , I do all the things , but I do it for me

46:43

and I do it to be stronger and

46:46

because I actually enjoy it . I'm

46:48

not going to some fancy-ass gym like

46:50

wearing like ridiculous tank

46:52

tops and like winking at people or whatever

46:55

happened . I just think that I

46:57

am just in a space and

46:59

I would agree with Justin too Like , I

47:02

think that where it doesn't really

47:04

matter as much and like , really

47:06

like , while I I love being

47:08

around young people , I think it's great

47:11

and like learning from them and

47:13

hearing that , but like , goodness gracious

47:15

, I'm so glad that I'm not in my twenties anymore

47:17

, like I really do , I love

47:19

my forties . I think it's been

47:21

, it's been the best experience . I think there's more

47:24

acceptance internally

47:26

for me and also

47:28

knowledge about who I am and why I am

47:30

in ways that there haven't been . But

47:33

yeah , I think that it's . It's just kind of funny , like

47:35

, as I remember , like in the when

47:37

we were in the league right , and we , you know

47:39

, we like to drink . It was very fun

47:41

and I think that we had a very good core

47:44

group there , but I just remember one

47:46

of them you know , and you know who I'm talking about like

47:48

taking me to the side and just telling me you're

47:51

a bit much , and I was like get

47:53

in line , buddy . I've always been

47:55

a bit much . Like it's not about here , like

47:57

this is just who I am , but it just it's

48:00

. You know , if you don't conform into certain ways

48:02

like people have a hard time accepting it , and

48:04

I also think that by not conforming to

48:06

it as well into their

48:08

ideals , I think it pushes , it

48:11

makes them uncomfortable , cause then if it's like

48:13

Justin , like you and I too , I think

48:15

we made other people uncomfortable by

48:18

doing things that were a little like ridiculous and

48:20

kind of making fun of football . We

48:22

didn't take it seriously . I mean , I took my

48:25

face painting and my costume seriously

48:27

, but look , I didn't really . And the drinking seriously

48:29

and the chicken tenders at Nellie

48:31

seriously shameless plug

48:33

. But I think that the rest

48:35

of it , like I think we did make people uncomfortable

48:37

a little bit with that , you know , of kind of like owning

48:40

our stuff and being louder . I

48:42

think there's something to be said about that .

48:45

You know what I've always kind of struggled with

48:47

there has been and there continues

48:49

to be . You know there's a hegemony in

48:51

the queer community . You know to be white

48:53

, you know to be a white man in the gay

48:56

community is , you know , the top

48:58

of hegemonically . It's , you know , top

49:00

of society . But you know you've often heard

49:02

, not interested in feminine men

49:04

or not interested in heavier

49:06

men , et cetera . And I've struggled with

49:08

this because there is a difference

49:11

between saying you know , I'm not interested in feminine

49:13

men , and that is different than

49:16

being misogynistic . And

49:18

I often feel like what's actually

49:21

happening is this is masking , like misogyny

49:23

and it is masking racism .

49:27

Yeah , I mean , sean , from my experience . I

49:29

think that I think you're right . I think sometimes

49:31

that is masking something

49:33

else , and especially when

49:35

you can be on , you know things like Grinder

49:38

, or you know back in , you know my 20s

49:40

manhunt and you could , you

49:43

know you got a . You know , right . You

49:46

know you were on these platforms

49:49

where you could just say things

49:51

like you know , not into

49:53

whatever you weren't into , and people were

49:55

okay with that , right , like , oh , I'm

49:58

okay if this person only wants people that are

50:00

, you know , six foot and 175

50:03

pounds . Like oh , well , that's okay , right , like there

50:05

was just , it was almost like like

50:07

the shopping aspect of it , like , oh , I'm out

50:10

shopping for my perfect shirt

50:12

and at the same time , you know

50:14

what , if I'm funny , is like I do

50:16

know people I have acquaintances who

50:18

you know are work out all

50:21

the time and are very into you know what

50:23

they look like and I'm very

50:25

happy for them because that makes them happy , right

50:27

, like I've gotten to the point now where I'm

50:29

like , if that's what makes them happy , that's

50:31

great and here's what makes me happy . So

50:34

if we're gonna be in our , if we're gonna be in a

50:36

friendship , or you know , you

50:38

have to accept that I you

50:40

know that I'm gonna be this way . I'm gonna accept

50:42

that you're gonna be that way , right , like I

50:44

think in my 20s , 30s it was much

50:46

more oh , I have to conform . I

50:49

either have to conform to something that

50:51

I'm not or you know so to

50:54

your point I have to be a little bit extra

50:56

, because that's how you get the

50:58

attention , that's how you get the

51:00

space to just be . So

51:03

, yeah , I do think that there's a piece of it , though

51:05

, that is masking something

51:07

. And you know , quite frankly , like I'll be

51:09

real clear like I wear a

51:11

kaftan some would call them mumus

51:14

like in warm weather , at my

51:16

house , out on the deck right , like

51:18

, like having a glass

51:20

of wine and a kaftan , like that's

51:23

fucking fabulous , Like I don't think

51:25

that makes me any less of a man and

51:27

it's actually makes me happy

51:30

. So , like , let's , like we can just

51:32

let people do that stuff . I don't know .

51:34

So that , all being said and

51:37

true , we also all agree

51:39

that the queer community has been supportive and affirming

51:41

for each of us too . So , soda , how

51:43

have you experienced that ?

51:45

In like positivity or kaftans

51:48

. If

51:51

you could touch on both of those Sure Kaftans

51:55

, I just don't think that I have the shape for them

51:57

. I also am just shorter than

51:59

Justin , so I just feel like it would look like a

52:01

just a longer like gown

52:03

, which I don't know is with some

52:05

of the patterns that I've seen of the kaftans , I don't know if

52:08

it would quite work for me .

52:09

It is Soda Soda , it will work

52:11

. I'm going to send you some to try

52:13

. You have now around your pool

52:15

.

52:16

it is perfect place for kaftans , so I

52:18

mean that sounds really nice In

52:20

terms of , I would say , like positivity

52:22

, like it sounds very doom and gloob like

52:24

, and then all these men hated

52:27

my body , like hundreds of them

52:29

in DC For

52:32

me actually to call

52:34

it out a little bit too , I feel

52:36

that I found more positivity from

52:39

black gay men , transgender

52:42

, like lesbians

52:44

, and not white gay

52:46

men , right . So I do feel like

52:48

that there was this very specific areas

52:50

where I felt really warm welcoming

52:53

and acceptance from

52:55

these specific areas , and I remember

52:58

having this very strong

53:00

lesbian friend group that really

53:02

took me under their wings , like I was trying

53:05

to think back of , like I don't even remember like

53:07

how I met this group , but they

53:09

were when I was in my 20s . They were

53:11

mostly in their 40s and

53:13

had houses and lives , and it was

53:15

just I really looked up to them and

53:18

they really instilled in me

53:20

that I was capable of anything

53:22

you know and like honestly did not

53:25

take shit from like other men

53:27

that I was seeing , and like they kept questioning

53:30

my choices of dates

53:32

. But I think that clearly I didn't

53:34

learn for a very long time . Yeah

53:36

, I mean I think there is a lot of positivity there and

53:38

I would agree with what both of you have

53:41

said too , is that you

53:43

know ? I love the fact that I'm in a space where I

53:45

can continue to learn about the queer community

53:47

, continue to be open to

53:50

being wrong and self-correcting

53:52

and learning

53:54

and evolving as it continues

53:56

to grow . That is actually kind of beautiful

53:59

.

53:59

So I think you're right . I think I found

54:02

I will say this I do think that the queer

54:04

community is very supportive

54:06

when , if we are attacked from

54:08

the outside , some of these people

54:10

that you know probably you

54:12

know would be people that I may not have

54:15

hung out with or felt comfortable around

54:17

before , you know if something

54:19

was happening , I know they would be there

54:21

right to protect the community

54:23

from the outside . I think you're right

54:25

, so to speak , as far as the you know finding from

54:28

, you know people of color , transgender

54:31

individuals , you know lesbians

54:33

. That was and

54:36

continues to be some of the support group that I

54:38

have . That you know , I actually

54:41

don't think it's the gay part of white

54:43

male gays . I

54:45

think it's the white part . That just , I

54:47

agree , yeah , and that's the piece that

54:49

I think . Now

54:52

, where I am , you know , I really look

54:54

at it and think , okay , I do sit

54:56

in a place of privilege , I have

54:58

to use that for good , I have to be supportive

55:00

of the community that I'm

55:02

in and I don't mean

55:04

that just to quirk me , but the community I

55:07

live in and the people that are

55:09

around and you know , bring that privilege to

55:11

help other folks that don't have it . And

55:13

I think what was funny is I found that

55:15

support , though , from people that didn't even have the privilege

55:18

I had , right , like it was the people that

55:20

, like you , were saying Soda , that just

55:22

really did help get through

55:24

, get me through some of the more darker times

55:26

in my life .

55:28

It isn't funny . Like Justin now

55:30

, right , like I didn't think about this then

55:32

, you know in my own like white

55:34

privilege , ignorance , like , but now I'm

55:36

thinking , how did they even have space

55:39

yes , a , they

55:41

were surviving . How did they even have space

55:43

for , even regardless

55:46

, like , just like the way that I was raised , like

55:48

understanding the world , and

55:50

how did they had space for me

55:52

, like , and I think that that is , that

55:55

is something just remarkable that I'm extremely

55:58

grateful for now . But , gosh , I

56:00

was such a privileged asshole , like

56:02

why was I , like you

56:04

know what I mean ? Like seeking refuge with

56:07

you know , these sub parts

56:09

of the queer community that

56:11

needed my support , right

56:13

, I mean how selfish , like it

56:15

just it's Bako is my mind a little

56:17

bit now . I mean I'm grateful to them , but

56:20

it's also , at the same time , like being

56:22

a little bit more aware and working

56:25

on it every day , like gosh

56:27

, like I wish I had a clue back then .

56:30

Yeah , how about you , Sean ? How

56:32

, what ? What has your experience been with the positive

56:34

support from the queer community ?

56:38

So , if I'm completely honest

56:40

, I have always been afraid of the queer community

56:43

, and I think if yeah , if I'm

56:45

honest , I still am I

56:47

have always avoided gay clubs

56:49

. I've avoided groups

56:52

of gay men specifically , and

56:55

part of that is , I think , just

56:57

my personality , but part

56:59

of it is I had experiences very

57:02

early on coming out , so

57:04

I did what the only thing I knew , which

57:06

was like let's go up to Green Bay , justin

57:08

, you know , green Bay , you know

57:10

, go to the gay clubs . And

57:13

I remember like being so excited that

57:15

I was finally out , and I had a friend we

57:17

snuck up to the clubs in Green

57:20

Bay , and so I was so excited to

57:22

be around my people and , within minutes , was like oh

57:25

, these are not my people , just

57:27

feeling very much like I don't fit

57:30

into this . I don't have , you know

57:32

, the perfect body . I don't have the perfect personality

57:34

, you know I was also . I

57:37

grew up very poor , which I

57:39

don't think I looked poor , but I thought I looked poor

57:41

, you know , and so I carried

57:43

that with me , just this inferiority . So

57:46

where I found supportive community

57:48

for me , though , is I've always been an academic

57:51

, so I got involved on the activist

57:53

side , and that's

57:55

where I found community where it was much less

57:57

about my dating

58:00

life , to be honest , and less

58:02

about you know how I looked and

58:04

kind of built a community for myself . That

58:07

way it's created a great

58:09

space for me . You know , like I was able to go into

58:11

like queer studies and I was able to , you

58:13

know , get into queer research and queer history and queer

58:15

politics , which has really

58:17

affirmed me and which has really given me a lot of agency

58:21

I think , over you know how I see

58:23

myself in the queer community in a way that I couldn't find

58:25

otherwise .

58:26

That's Sean , that's really , I mean this . This

58:29

has been a fascinating because I've known

58:31

both of you now for over

58:33

a decade but I

58:35

didn't , like this conversation

58:37

has been fascinating because I didn't know some of this

58:40

about either of you . And from

58:42

my perspective , right , sean , like I

58:45

, when I first met you and we're

58:47

hanging out and then you know , over the course of our

58:49

friendship , like I have always been

58:51

so impressed by the community that

58:53

you have , because it is the

58:55

academic activists

58:58

, like folks that

59:00

are out there like not you

59:02

know , just going to the bar , but like I

59:04

mean , you know , yes , you go to the bar or you go

59:06

out and drink or whatever , but it's like you had all

59:09

of this other like stuff

59:11

that I was like , oh , how do I do that

59:13

? Like I , I want to have that community

59:15

right . Or you know , soda with

59:17

you and like I just still think about like

59:19

you were , you are extra and

59:21

I love it because like you'd walk into a room

59:24

and it's like it's a party then

59:26

right , and you have fun and it's not

59:28

going to be boring , and like and

59:30

to hear both of you kind of talk about your

59:32

own like you know experiences

59:34

and you know the feelings that

59:36

you were having at that same time , and

59:39

it's fascinating to me because , you know

59:41

, I was like , oh , here are two of my friends who are like

59:43

they got their shit together

59:45

and I'm over here , you know , like knocking

59:48

my head against the fence because they can't figure

59:50

out how to open the door right . Like

59:52

it's funny that you know the perceptions we have

59:55

of each other and of ourselves

59:57

and how you know the how other people perceive us

1:00:00

as well , cause

1:00:02

I yeah , I don't know Second

1:00:05

glass of wine is kicking in .

1:00:09

Justin , who was your first male crush .

1:00:12

Neil Patrick Harris and

1:00:15

then Ricky Martin . Oh

1:00:17

yeah , 1990s

1:00:20

. Ricky Martin , yes , like

1:00:23

a bomb , bomb like a bomb bomb . Oh

1:00:26

, my God , you can shake my

1:00:28

anyway . Well

1:00:30

, but NPH

1:00:32

. I remember watching Doogie Hauser and thinking

1:00:34

like not knowing right , Like

1:00:36

what was going on and cause I was , you know , not quite

1:00:39

aware , but just being like I really want

1:00:41

to have a computer where I take my journal . I

1:00:43

want to be a doctor . I hate the sight of blood

1:00:45

and I want

1:00:47

Doogie to be my friend and we're

1:00:49

going to cuddle in

1:00:52

scrubs , exactly

1:00:56

Soda Um .

1:00:58

Conway Twitty , I mean , I think

1:01:00

that it was definitely like Conway

1:01:03

Twitty , kenny Rogers

1:01:06

and Randy Travis

1:01:08

, you know , I kind of have a maybe

1:01:11

like a daddy thing , I don't know . But

1:01:13

Conway Twitty , though , especially in his younger days

1:01:15

, like I don't know , like tight fit and jeans

1:01:18

, like I was just kind of thinking about his jeans

1:01:20

, you know , when that was on the radio , yeah

1:01:22

, could see that His

1:01:24

hair was so swoopy . Those were some

1:01:26

tight curls .

1:01:27

Yeah , once Tim McGraw cut his

1:01:29

mullet he moved up

1:01:31

on my list . I'm just saying the mullet

1:01:33

thing didn't get me . But Tim McGraw , without the mullet

1:01:36

, you just want to get closer to .

1:01:38

Faith Hill .

1:01:38

Well , I mean that's it , yeah , yes , I

1:01:42

don't blame you at all .

1:01:44

Faith , if you're listening maybe

1:01:47

you can just have Martina call her for you

1:01:49

, oh my . God , could you imagine

1:01:51

Okay .

1:01:53

So you want to know tangent , something

1:01:55

that I just

1:01:57

learned Soda , you're probably going to

1:01:59

choke on this , but I just learned

1:02:01

is that Fancy by Riva McIntyre

1:02:04

was actually written by Bobby Gentry .

1:02:07

Oh , my God Sean .

1:02:08

I just you know why ? Because we were at an estate

1:02:10

sale yesterday came across Bobby Gentry album

1:02:13

and I was like , oh my gosh . Soda Canter

1:02:15

mentioned this and I've never really listened to her music , so

1:02:17

I bought it .

1:02:19

Wait , did you buy the Fancy album ?

1:02:21

Yes .

1:02:22

Oh , my God , it's so good . Two

1:02:24

dollars , that , okay . You

1:02:26

need to look that up too , because like that those are

1:02:28

hard to come by . That

1:02:30

is an excellent album .

1:02:32

It is . It's really good , it's very good . Yeah

1:02:34

, sean

1:02:36

, if it makes you feel any better . I was this moment old when I learned that .

1:02:40

You should listen to it . It was 1967

1:02:42

. Oh

1:02:44

my gosh , it was like 25

1:02:46

years before Riva did it . Yeah .

1:02:49

And I thought it was risque for Riva to do it . But

1:02:51

like in the sixth , oh , I love that

1:02:53

.

1:02:54

All right . So , speaking of music , what

1:02:56

is a song or band that you were really into in your

1:02:58

20s that has not held up over the

1:03:00

years ? Oh my God

1:03:02

.

1:03:03

I don't know if any of it doesn't not

1:03:06

hold up Like I think I

1:03:08

felt like I was really obsessed with Matchbox

1:03:11

20 . Me too , but I still felt

1:03:13

pretty legit . I still think that that's legit

1:03:15

, me too . And then , what was that other

1:03:18

girl group dream ? Yes

1:03:20

, but

1:03:23

I also think that what is that song , though

1:03:25

, that they have ? He loves you

1:03:27

not . I still think that's the song

1:03:29

of the bop . That's so good . And

1:03:32

Mr Colifo man , that's

1:03:34

really weird , like dream and

1:03:36

Matchbox 20 , but anyway , I pass

1:03:39

. Pass on to the next person , justin .

1:03:44

Well , so I basically stopped

1:03:47

listening to new music when I was like

1:03:49

15 , according to

1:03:51

all of my friends because most of the things that

1:03:53

I listen to on a regular basis are from the 80s

1:03:55

and 90s . So , but

1:03:57

I would say that one of my favorite

1:04:00

songs my senior year

1:04:02

of high school , I think was

1:04:04

Chumbo Womba Tubfun

1:04:07

.

1:04:09

That's on my list .

1:04:10

And it's still if it comes on . I

1:04:13

still am like right there , like yes

1:04:15

, and then the whole time I'm like this

1:04:18

is horrible . Why

1:04:20

am I ? Why am I excited about

1:04:22

this ?

1:04:23

Do you mean horribly good ?

1:04:25

Yes , horrible in a good way , you

1:04:28

know who else Aqua , oh

1:04:31

Barbie girl Like to this day

1:04:33

I'm still like that song comes on .

1:04:35

I'm like this is the dumbest fucking song

1:04:37

and I'm still dancing Yep

1:04:39

. So I guess , yeah , I don't know when does

1:04:41

that fall ? Where , if like , has it held up ? Has it

1:04:43

not ? Like it clearly has not held up , but

1:04:45

it still means something .

1:04:47

Yeah , the feeling is there because

1:04:49

I think that anytime that you hear the

1:04:51

songs like it's , I

1:04:54

remember even just like recently

1:04:56

, like my nephew's

1:04:58

like overheard , like our like 90s

1:05:00

Spotify list or whatever that

1:05:02

would that was like some playlist and

1:05:05

I just remember they were like this music is so bad

1:05:07

, like , and but for us , like it just

1:05:09

it's so nostalgic and it feels

1:05:11

good and you remember where you were

1:05:13

and it just brings up so many great memories

1:05:16

. So I don't know , I think if it's still in folks a

1:05:18

feeling for you , I think it's good .

1:05:20

I will say this , that I did have a period

1:05:22

where I tried to , where I pretended

1:05:25

I liked grunge and metal

1:05:27

much more than I do

1:05:29

. Whoa , I loved

1:05:31

grunge , no , no , no , and I appreciate

1:05:34

the musical value , I appreciate

1:05:36

all of it , right but I pretended I

1:05:39

don't even know . I think I was a freshman in high school

1:05:41

and I pretended that I was into like

1:05:43

the grunge scene and really

1:05:45

like metal bands . And I remember

1:05:47

somebody was talking to me about Led

1:05:50

Zeppelin and I , like

1:05:53

, had a full on conversation with them about

1:05:55

Led Zeppelin , having never heard an

1:05:57

actual Led Zeppelin song . And

1:05:59

again , this was also , though the like , trying to fit

1:06:01

in in my community , you know , in the town I grew up

1:06:03

with , everybody's doing this . Well

1:06:06

, I shouldn't be blasting Amy Grant , I

1:06:08

guess , because everybody's listening

1:06:10

to it . Listen , I don't know

1:06:12

. Anyway , she is awesome . I love Amy Grant .

1:06:14

She's somebody else who got really fucked over for

1:06:17

trying something new . Yeah , yeah

1:06:19

, and she like conformed back

1:06:22

.

1:06:23

Although she well , this

1:06:25

is a whole other podcast , because she has

1:06:27

been very , though , supportive of the queer community

1:06:29

in ways that I didn't even know until

1:06:32

recently . I guess I don't know either . Yeah

1:06:34

, Like because of the persona

1:06:36

that is the . You know what

1:06:38

we think of right , Like anyway

1:06:40

.

1:06:41

So the Christian

1:06:43

persona is what you're talking about . Yeah , all right , All

1:06:46

right . Final question what's something

1:06:48

interesting you've been reading , watching , listening to or

1:06:50

doing lately , and it doesn't have to be related

1:06:52

to this topic , but it can be .

1:06:54

I've been watching and also hating

1:06:56

myself for watching Tell Me Lies

1:06:59

, which is on Hulu . I

1:07:01

love the show and I love

1:07:04

the writing because it basically , like

1:07:06

it , transports me back . We've talked

1:07:08

about , like the 2000s it's kind

1:07:10

of around this time of the group of college

1:07:12

students . If you have not watched it , you should

1:07:14

. They're all horrible and

1:07:16

basically I am every single one

1:07:18

of these people and so

1:07:20

I love watching it . But I also

1:07:22

hate myself and it brings up a lot

1:07:25

of really like deep-seated things

1:07:27

about my university experience in the most

1:07:29

delightful ways .

1:07:31

I haven't even heard of it , have you , justin ? I

1:07:33

have not , but it's definitely on the

1:07:35

list now .

1:07:36

I will say that the everybody

1:07:38

is like attractive

1:07:40

and like . They definitely hype up like the 2000s

1:07:43

in ways that it did not look like

1:07:45

it's

1:07:47

a little bit more glammed up in places than

1:07:49

what it actually was to actually live through

1:07:52

it , but you should definitely look it up . It

1:07:54

has twists and turns and it is

1:07:56

. These people are horrendous

1:07:58

.

1:08:00

Tell Me Lies , justin .

1:08:03

Well , I am anxiously waiting

1:08:05

the next installment of

1:08:08

Morgantown Blues

1:08:10

that I hope to receive soon from

1:08:12

my friend , Soda Canter and

1:08:15

I'm also . I'm actually some friends

1:08:17

of mine at work and I have been doing some

1:08:19

reading of various

1:08:21

different books and one of the ones

1:08:23

we're reading right now is called After

1:08:26

the Ecstasy , the Laundry , which is all

1:08:28

about like after you

1:08:30

hit your zen moment , like how

1:08:33

do you keep like

1:08:35

that going in your life ? And

1:08:37

I've really been doing a lot of

1:08:40

like that type of reading of

1:08:42

what is our kind of purpose

1:08:44

for being on the earth and the whole

1:08:46

, you know , spiritualism around yoga

1:08:49

and that type of thing and getting

1:08:51

kind of into that , which has been fun because

1:08:54

it's so different than kind of my upbringing

1:08:56

and Catholicism and yet also

1:08:58

very strangely related

1:09:00

. But yeah , so that's a . It's

1:09:03

a great book . Gosh , darn it , justin

1:09:05

, like I'm telling you my Hulu show and

1:09:07

you have to do that Well okay

1:09:09

, I mean , yeah , I mean , but I'm also

1:09:11

rewatching , like the expanse

1:09:14

for the I don't know six time

1:09:17

, because , okay , this is

1:09:19

after all of our conversations about like

1:09:21

people's bodies , like there's a superficial

1:09:23

reason they are attractive and

1:09:26

it's space .

1:09:28

Okay , way to redeem yourself , that's good

1:09:30

. I mean , I like the other stuff too , like

1:09:32

it was nice , but it's just like gosh , justin

1:09:34

, yeah , you're so smart and

1:09:37

so perfect , whatever .

1:09:40

All right , you two . Soda canter , Thanks

1:09:42

for being here Again . I really enjoyed it . Thank

1:09:44

you so much Loved it . And

1:09:47

Justin Hentchis , you're no longer a virgin to the podcast

1:09:49

. Thanks for being here .

1:09:51

Oh , I finally got to pop this cherry . Thanks

1:09:53

, Sean .

1:09:55

I feel like I set you up for

1:09:57

the worst outro , but

1:10:00

you took a swing at it , so I did

1:10:02

. I did .

1:10:04

That's how I want to be remembered .

1:10:15

The world , in many ways and across

1:10:17

many countries , is becoming increasingly

1:10:20

threatening for queer folks . Last

1:10:22

week I talked to Dr Alexander Kondekoff

1:10:25

about how violent anti-gay

1:10:27

rhetoric on the part of elites , specifically

1:10:29

politicians , is directly

1:10:31

linked to increases in violent acts committed

1:10:33

against queer folks and the queer community In

1:10:36

the United States . This type of violent

1:10:38

crime is on the rise and it comes at a time

1:10:40

when some political elites , particularly Republicans

1:10:43

, have taken direct rhetorical

1:10:45

and legislative aim at queer

1:10:47

people . In this environment

1:10:49

it's tempting to seek shelter , to

1:10:51

hide . I wrestle with this , to

1:10:53

just keep my head down and get through

1:10:55

life , and if that means I have to keep some things hidden

1:10:58

or avoid being my full self in certain

1:11:00

places , so be it . But in

1:11:02

fact that's the very intent of this type

1:11:04

of anti-gay rhetoric and legislation

1:11:06

to make us all so afraid and

1:11:08

anxious that we either conform , hide

1:11:11

or die . The

1:11:13

only remedy is to some , encourage

1:11:16

and stand in the face of it , knowing

1:11:18

full well that some of us will fall . We

1:11:21

will not all get out of this alive . We're

1:11:24

dying every day , to be sure , directly

1:11:26

through physical violence committed against

1:11:29

us and indirectly through depression

1:11:31

and shame . But

1:11:33

we all lose if we hide One

1:11:36

thing that we can do to make it bearable is

1:11:39

to be our true selves in the face of force's

1:11:41

intent on disappearing us to

1:11:43

show each other that we see each other , that

1:11:45

we hear each other , that we have each other's backs

1:11:48

. We are not as alone as

1:11:50

they would like us to feel . You , queer

1:11:53

kid in Florida needing to talk to

1:11:55

someone but knowing that anything you say to

1:11:57

anyone at your school will be reported

1:11:59

, that you don't control your own story

1:12:01

anymore . You , parent

1:12:04

in Texas struggling with the decision

1:12:06

to take your trans child to the doctor and

1:12:09

fearful that you'll be reported to the state for child

1:12:11

abuse if you do it . You

1:12:13

, budding drag queen in rural North Dakota

1:12:15

, afraid to be out after dark . You , little

1:12:18

Mormon lesbian with a crush on a girl at your

1:12:20

church but afraid of excommunication . You

1:12:23

, justin , organizing your thoughts

1:12:25

in a script to come out to your family , probably

1:12:28

because you feel you need to make a strong case

1:12:30

for why people should still love you after

1:12:32

you tell them that you're gay . You

1:12:34

, soda , keeping a secret from some of

1:12:36

your closest buddies in the military because

1:12:39

maybe the government will dishonorably discharge

1:12:41

you , humiliate you if they

1:12:43

knew you were gay . All of you

1:12:45

. I promise you you are not alone

1:12:47

. We need to tell each other

1:12:49

who we are . It is a matter of survival

1:12:52

. Whew , alright

1:12:54

, check back next Friday and every

1:12:56

Friday for a new episode of Deep Dive

1:12:58

Chat soon , folks .