0:00

Are you earning and investing in the

0:02

stock market? In. Real Estate. Hop.

0:04

In Relationships. Are you earning and

0:07

investing in your life? I'm

0:09

Dok Je semi retired hospice physician and

0:11

host of the Earn and Invest podcast

0:14

where we have the to a one

0:16

where next level conversations about money and

0:18

life. Not. Only how you make money

0:20

and grow it, but also how you use your

0:22

wealth to create a better and more fulfilling existence.

0:25

Join. Us every Monday and Thursday where

0:27

ever you listen. Define podcasts. Great.

0:29

Business leadership takes courage. That's.

0:32

An easy thing to say, but a

0:34

hard thing to practice because a risky

0:36

move may be a wrong move, even

0:38

if it seems like the brave thing

0:40

to do. And. Many times

0:42

the courageous decision is one

0:44

that defies expectations. It. Got

0:47

against the grain. Joe

0:49

Almeida has made a lot of tough

0:51

decisions in is decades as a leader

0:53

in the healthcare industry. But. He

0:56

always tries to bases decisions and hard

0:58

data and to look beyond hop things

1:00

may appear on the surface. Joe

1:03

tells the story about his dad and

1:05

his uncle. My. Dad had a brother. And

1:08

my dad was working

1:10

at a drugstore to

1:12

support his. College.

1:15

Tuition. My father came from

1:17

very, very ah, humble beginnings

1:19

here and there was a

1:21

theft at the drugstore, the

1:23

tally got broken into, somebody

1:26

stole money, And

1:28

my father was working that day behind

1:30

the counter. And

1:33

he didn't do it by they're

1:35

investigating. And. During that time. My

1:38

father was in a very tough place.

1:40

The kid know is that in years

1:42

old twenty years old in his parents

1:44

lived very far away and his brother

1:47

lived in Tom. And

1:49

his brother had the courage to back him up

1:51

one hundred percent. So the

1:53

courage to back somebody up even when

1:56

things don't look right. and again that

1:58

the day was proven that. father

2:00

had nothing to do with that was the

2:02

pharmacist who took the money and tried to

2:04

frame my dad. But

2:07

my uncle, never for one minute, did

2:09

not support my dad. So

2:11

the lesson is the courage to

2:13

back somebody up even when things

2:16

don't look right. Use

2:18

your intuition and facts, do the

2:20

right thing, even in

2:22

light of things that may look wrong.

2:32

Hey

2:45

everyone, welcome to Deep Purpose, a

2:48

podcast about courage and commitment in

2:51

turbulent times. I'm Ranjay

2:53

Gulati, a professor of business administration at

2:55

the Harvard Business School. My

2:58

guest this time is Joe Almeida,

3:00

the chairman, president and CEO of

3:02

Baxter International. Baxter

3:04

is a global medical technology

3:07

leader with a portfolio of

3:09

diagnostic, critical care, kidney care,

3:12

nutrition, hospital and

3:14

surgical products used in patient

3:16

homes, hospitals, physicians' offices and

3:19

other sites of care. Joe

3:21

Almeida was born and raised in Brazil,

3:23

where he earned a bachelor's degree in

3:26

mechanical engineering. Before joining

3:28

Baxter, he was chairman, president and

3:30

CEO of Covidion, leading a turnaround

3:32

of that company. Joe

3:34

held senior positions at his predecessor company

3:37

Tycho Healthcare and worked at a number

3:39

of other healthcare firms along the way.

3:42

He began his career as a management

3:44

consultant at Anderson Cajos. Joe,

3:49

I wanted to explore with you

3:51

as CEO, leader, growing through

3:53

your career. I've heard

3:55

you talk about the word courage very

3:58

often In business and. In Life. What?

4:01

Does the word courage mean to you

4:03

when you think of that word? What

4:05

does that mean? The definition of us,

4:08

Professor Laddie. Let

4:10

me say to you what courage is

4:12

Not. Courage

4:14

is not an abscess to fear.

4:17

Courage. It is not

4:19

an adventure. Courage is the

4:21

ability to do is something

4:24

that is really difficult. There

4:26

will be complex but the

4:28

ability to go through with

4:31

it so. Not

4:33

all the times that we do is

4:35

something that is deemed courageous. We are

4:37

fearless. We. Have anxiety

4:39

about it. But. We have

4:42

the conviction. To. Get it done. Certainly.

4:44

In your early life and your

4:46

career can you think of one

4:49

or two that moments where you

4:51

witness someone else do something with

4:53

a couple of times growing up.

4:56

Ah see my father explaining

4:58

to me. What? He was

5:00

going to do in a very difficult

5:02

situation. And how he

5:05

was not going to take the path.

5:07

Of less resistance was

5:09

something that was not

5:11

ethical. And he was

5:13

refusing to a bite to it. in

5:15

was a something related to his work

5:18

in his today's going to be important

5:20

a because they're gonna say no to

5:22

this and I said multiple times I'm

5:24

not going to be part of it

5:27

and he actually. Did.

5:29

It. And I know there

5:31

was a very tough day for

5:33

him, but there was very courageous

5:35

for him to stand up and

5:37

say that any other examples come

5:39

to mind. After that I have

5:41

examples of several readers who I

5:43

worked with who have demonstrated courage

5:45

and determination to say no. Say

5:48

yes sometimes is the easy part

5:51

to say no and step out

5:53

is the most difficult thing to

5:55

do. I remember working overseas and

5:57

encounter situations where was easy to

6:00

say yes I faced or up

6:02

proposition There was not the right

6:04

thing to do in the courage

6:06

to stand up. As said I'm

6:08

not doing this I'm not going

6:11

to take part in This was

6:13

very important to me as to

6:15

remember to date the dialogue and

6:17

I'm proud there was able to

6:19

do is add that came from

6:22

an example of my dad said

6:24

me when you think about your

6:26

principles that give you courage. Your

6:29

personal beliefs and you said your values

6:32

that give you that courage? Could you

6:34

list a few of them for me?

6:36

What are those kind of guiding principles

6:38

that you know for those things? Those

6:40

ideals you are willing to do things

6:42

even if it's gotta be scary and

6:44

put to make uncomfortable. Integrity

6:47

is one Nsx. It doesn't matter

6:49

where you come in and world's

6:51

you know what's right and what's

6:54

wrong. The power meant. Have this

6:56

feeling gives you courage to make

6:58

the right coughs no matter what.

7:01

So. Is very important to

7:03

go back to you fed use

7:06

to. Say. I'm

7:08

going to something or I'm not.

7:11

I'm going accept or am not

7:13

where I'm going to stand up

7:15

to this and say no. So

7:18

the ability to stand up for

7:20

something is all about disasters in

7:22

the values are the ones that

7:24

you bring with you from childhood.

7:27

You can enhance them both to

7:29

feel. Value base is one that

7:31

he starts very early in your

7:33

life. If you've seen that you

7:36

had a significant amount of head.

7:38

Start on somebody who comes from a

7:41

different background. self's those decisions for me

7:43

I never thought about the courage I

7:45

thought more about. This is the right

7:47

thing to do. We gonna go ahead

7:50

and do it. Fast

8:04

forward to. This you

8:06

had a tremendous run to

8:08

becoming see of covidien to

8:10

selling the business to Medtronic

8:13

and now see your baxter.

8:16

Tell us about a moment or

8:19

two that would actually scary where

8:21

you really? you were really not

8:23

sure how this is gonna play

8:26

but you had to do something

8:28

and maybe not even the on

8:30

the ethical side. Just like a

8:33

bat in business where you are

8:35

placing bets all the time on

8:37

acquiring a business, selling a business

8:39

hiring people firing people well we

8:42

for one point in time would

8:44

transform into for forty of off

8:46

comedian. And we had so

8:49

many in an acquisition that would make

8:51

a difference for as will get us

8:53

in the new space more growth and

8:55

was pretty expensive for us at the

8:58

time was couple billion dollars and because

9:00

amount of the purchase price and the

9:02

he beat out of the business which

9:05

was very small compared to the size

9:07

of sales there was a big risk

9:09

of impairment of buying a business that

9:12

you can have to write off a

9:14

portion of the value because you couldn't

9:16

achieve. The proposed sales growth

9:18

and frost ability and margin

9:20

was very thin very very

9:22

thin air and we bought

9:24

their business and I said

9:26

no I'm the sponsor the

9:28

business homelessness C O yet

9:30

and them to sponsor this

9:33

business within a make a

9:35

worth an for about three

9:37

four quarters. I really really

9:39

was afraid of the business

9:41

not performing as planned in

9:43

end up in a position

9:45

that we have to write.

9:47

Off the investment that we just

9:49

made. And I

9:51

had the courage to say we're doing it

9:53

but I was very fearful. I had the

9:55

courage because was the right thing to do

9:58

for the company was a. With

10:00

a Peabody. Moment. For the

10:02

company he stamps are creating fair you.

10:05

By. Was up. The

10:07

bet. So how did he talk yourself

10:09

into a did you say oh you

10:11

know it's gonna be okay or I'm

10:13

gonna reduce the risk or you know

10:15

what it was just viewed do would

10:17

do it regardless of the risk wealth

10:20

for so it's gotta understand the risk

10:22

of making a bat is not not

10:24

understand in the risk making a bad

10:26

as understand the risks to a certain

10:28

degree. the makes you. Comfortable.

10:30

So when I think about risk

10:33

I look at to thanks how

10:35

much knowledge. Of

10:37

hard facts you house. And

10:40

how much intuition you have a

10:42

bought the past you are taking

10:44

is the combination because you will

10:46

never be able to get sufficient

10:49

data to be one hundred percent

10:51

sure of every of of anything.

10:54

My. Comes to a projection so

10:56

your intuition is it. Do you

10:58

have the right people? eve place

11:00

did U S the quite questions?

11:02

Did you este the right people?

11:05

the right questions So. I

11:07

question myself multiple times. so when I decide

11:09

I'm going to sparser does and and

11:11

went to my boss see always said

11:13

i want to do this and this is

11:16

why I want to do this. I

11:18

hear about ninety percent of the Ussr

11:20

as on the data, but I went there

11:22

with attend perhaps fifteen percent of intuition

11:24

that we could make that happen. So

11:27

was not an easy process but

11:29

had to have speed. As you're

11:31

buying a company you have interlopers

11:33

you have people come in and

11:35

tried to buy the same business

11:37

of said to make the decision

11:39

with time soaps Courage is not

11:41

only a function of your due

11:43

diligence but he sells so he

11:45

study impulsive you have to separate.

11:48

Like. A did in the beginning.

11:50

Courage in fear encourage any positive

11:53

behavior did not the same courage

11:55

is to do the right things

11:57

with a data the makes you

11:59

comfortable. In the intuitions that

12:01

allows you. To. Combine

12:04

with the data. Be.

12:06

Comfortable with the best your taken.

12:08

Is Not about. Making

12:11

an impulsive decision, We.

12:13

Dot understand the consequences. but even with all

12:15

the data you sometimes never was how all

12:17

the data so you're still gonna have to

12:19

make their last leap. But you're saying I'm

12:22

what. I gather as much data as I

12:24

can that is available to me. To.

12:26

Reduce their risk at least already

12:28

understand the list comprehend of as

12:30

quantify the risk. Color. The

12:33

risk. Some. Making

12:35

are more bounded calculated move is that

12:37

you have to leap A I said

12:39

us at ten percent. Fifteen percent gonna

12:41

be oh intuition. Did you think that

12:43

it's gonna happen because your experience brings

12:45

together this and I've seen this happen

12:48

in this can be done in them

12:50

and I have faced in a team

12:52

who is doing it in a have

12:54

enough data that assures me that I

12:56

have a great probability of success but

12:58

you never going to have one hundred

13:01

percent So that leap of faith is

13:03

base or an intuition. And

13:05

you business knowledge? Or. Situational

13:08

knowledge. So. You

13:10

can make that call not one hundred

13:12

percent on the numbers because does not.

13:14

I'm not an endless even it. So

13:17

you're making that last leave you slept

13:19

Said something to yourself like oh, you

13:21

know it's gonna be okay. How do

13:23

you reassure yourself when you go to

13:25

bed that night after having pulled the

13:27

trigger on that last leap? What are

13:30

you saying to yourself other night? Well,

13:32

depends. depends up there. Run with all

13:34

the endorphins you always talking yourself up.

13:36

You get up at two o'clock in

13:38

the morning. when is everything? Squints. Dark

13:40

outside. That's when you go to a

13:42

dark place. A servo. Maybe I shouldn't

13:44

have done these were should not do

13:47

this So you've gotta be able to

13:49

put yourself on a timeframe. Guess.

13:51

The decision is not going to change much.

13:53

You feel alone good at the time in

13:56

just. Trust your instincts

13:58

because I think them. More

14:00

experience you have. your instincts play

14:02

a bigger role in your ability

14:04

to make good decisions. Is not

14:07

your not perfect you going to

14:09

fail but you have as time

14:11

goes by. Really? Good

14:13

instincts. What people? Mistakenly

14:16

do z don't trust the instincts

14:18

and they realized too much on

14:20

the data in is a combination

14:22

of them. Your instincts have to

14:24

be trusted by you is your

14:26

gut. You know one is right

14:28

and you get the numbers. the

14:30

said disk can happen. I'm gonna

14:32

go for it. Hi I'm Frances

14:34

Frank and I'm and Morris and we

14:36

are the hosts of a new Ted

14:38

podcast called Fixable. We've helped leaders at

14:41

some of the world's most competitive companies

14:43

that are of all kinds of problems.

14:45

On our show will pull back the

14:47

curtain and give you the type of

14:49

honest, unfiltered advice we usually reserved for

14:51

top executives. Maybe you have a coworker

14:53

with Foundry issues? Are you wanna know

14:55

how to inspire? Motivator sees it as

14:57

a call and will help you solve

14:59

the problem just fine. Fixable Wherever. Unison.

15:34

The also an Aviator and

15:37

moral Lindbergh once said. It.

15:39

Takes as much courage to have

15:41

tried and failed. As. It

15:43

does to have tried and succeeded.

15:46

I'd add that it takes courage

15:48

not only to admit your mistakes,

15:50

but to really learn from them.

15:53

There's a lot of talk in

15:55

the business world these days about

15:57

failing sauce, but the rewards of

15:59

failure. For me, mistakes are actually

16:01

pretty scarce. I. Us. Joe

16:04

Maida whether he's had to

16:06

confront failure in his own

16:08

journey multiple times, is actually

16:10

takes more courage to admit

16:12

mistakes. Also, did you sir,

16:14

are those of. He.

16:17

Go there. has to be

16:19

putting check because nobody likes

16:21

to fail. Buffet was part

16:23

of learning famous part of

16:25

success so I had several

16:27

failures. I have acquisitions the

16:29

failed mistakes in terms of

16:31

talent. Betting in

16:33

the wrong Dalit or not batting

16:36

worse even not betting into right

16:38

talent and letting people go socks

16:40

facing your. Failures.

16:43

Are the most enriching experience for a

16:45

leader in takes courage to do with.

16:47

Gonna give us one example. I'm not

16:50

going to give you the name of

16:52

the acquisition but I was confronted by

16:54

my boys sets with the performances you

16:56

see today said absolutely would I had

16:58

made his acquisition We made a mistake.

17:01

Don't. Need the thought process going on

17:03

in your head before you had

17:05

to make that public confession that

17:07

you know I ceo got it

17:09

wrong. One of the things that

17:11

I praise. People. When

17:13

an eye surgery myself is

17:16

the ability to be. Extremely.

17:20

Transparent and clear with

17:22

my board. And

17:25

with people who I

17:27

work with, intellectual honesty

17:29

is critical for that.

17:31

So. People. To admit

17:33

mistakes because people the one and

17:35

midfielders. So I took an example

17:37

out of my. Career. Where

17:40

did not admit a failure at any

17:42

Vested much more money in a failed

17:44

enterprise that a sweat. And. End

17:46

up feeling the same way. It.

17:50

Took me awhile to admit that

17:52

and death process. Tommy how to

17:54

become. A. Much quicker. And.

17:56

More humble exactness that happened

17:59

to me. About twenty three

18:01

years ago and I made an investment

18:03

in a business in a technology. The

18:05

sailed in when the person who came

18:08

to me as said this is failure

18:10

said ago put more money go have

18:12

a fixed. We.have in

18:14

the humbleness and the courage to

18:17

say thank you for hims points.

18:19

Let's. Just so, the

18:21

project and move on dead was

18:23

fundamentally important for me to be

18:26

able to had the conversation with

18:28

a boy. so I got to

18:30

death Professor Gulati pretty quickly after

18:32

couple of years of. Not

18:35

successful. Results: On

18:37

a dare business with the board. What

18:39

makes god, it's so hard. Like the

18:41

opposite of courage is I had to

18:43

use the word, but it's cowardice. Yeah,

18:45

and yeah, that's what we see more

18:48

off than courage in the world. What

18:50

do you think holds people back. I

18:52

always think about of a phrase

18:54

from our a former boss of

18:57

my. Great

18:59

individual. He

19:01

said to me when have come to work in those days

19:03

we used to wear suit and tie. To

19:06

work everyday and he said it

19:08

will come to work hangs your

19:10

ego. With her jacket

19:12

behind the door. And.

19:16

I. Believe dead lack of

19:19

courage. Is

19:22

also. Attributable

19:24

to people who have

19:26

a hard time understanding

19:28

motivations in how was

19:30

failure would affect them

19:32

individually. Because when

19:34

you have the courage to take

19:36

a step you making. Know

19:39

only. An assumption day.

19:41

what should do is right and you're

19:43

gonna make the decisions. But oh so

19:45

you're admitting that you may fail. Some.

19:48

People cannot take their failure.

19:50

So instead of making the

19:52

decision which is courageous but

19:54

understanding the consequences, I just

19:56

prefer not to make that

19:59

decision. Swipe. The serve. Myself.

20:02

He. My position I don't was

20:04

sacked. My reputation in I

20:07

can go forward with life

20:09

know you missed too many

20:12

of those opportunities. You not

20:14

gonna be successful but the

20:16

courage is impacted by. The

20:19

fear of personal consequences of the

20:21

safe. So what advice do you

20:24

give to young people who are

20:26

starting out early in their career

20:28

and he say hey, Go.

20:30

Out there and have courage. What?

20:32

How do they actually embrace courage?

20:35

even as a construct is tied

20:37

to the having a North Star

20:39

and strong values that will allow

20:41

them to work through it? Is

20:43

it gathering information and always trying

20:46

to manage the risk around a

20:48

big decision? Is it just simply

20:50

be willing to admit failure and

20:52

learn what advice would you give

20:55

You've given a few I think

20:57

powerful pieces of advice. Understand. What?

21:00

Decisions. You. Going

21:02

to make and the

21:04

consequences. The courage is

21:06

the absence. Of.

21:10

The fear of failure, Not

21:14

deck courage is the opposite of

21:16

not having fear. I have a

21:18

fear every time a make a.

21:21

Critical. Decision. But.

21:24

My fear. Is.

21:28

Much smaller. Than

21:30

my drive to make that

21:32

decision to when you are

21:35

inexperienced in you're trying to

21:37

make a decision. Don't be

21:39

impulsive, Think.

21:41

About the consequences, Understand the

21:43

ecosystem and the numbers. A

21:46

fear of for. whatever

21:48

do emotional whatever decision is

21:50

even embark in in a

21:53

long term partnership or marriage

21:55

or or a long term

21:57

decisions you make is don't

21:59

think of this only as

22:01

a business deal is also a

22:03

personal decision. When you embark on

22:05

those things, think about the consequences

22:09

and you are prepared to

22:11

admit failure. You've got

22:13

to be prepared to admit failure to get into

22:15

a situation where you have the courage to make

22:18

that decision. Make

22:20

sure that you are not impulsive

22:23

because impulsivity is the

22:25

opposite of understanding

22:27

facts. And impulsivity

22:30

usually works on

22:32

a toss of a

22:34

coin because you can do one

22:36

way or the other. You're going so fast you can

22:39

see through that. You've got to

22:41

take your time in business and

22:43

private life, your personal decisions, to

22:45

make sure that you don't

22:47

fear the failure but you understand what

22:49

the failure impact is in your life.

22:53

What are your personal sources of strength?

22:55

You mentioned values as one of them.

22:58

What gives you the strength to wake up

23:00

every day and go

23:03

to work and accept

23:05

failure? Where does

23:07

that come from? If you look back

23:09

at your own self, what

23:12

gives you the strength and drive

23:14

to do what you do every

23:16

day? You have

23:18

to build two things, tenacity

23:20

and resiliency. To

23:23

build those two things, you've got

23:25

to be assured of yourself, of

23:28

your principles, what you believe, but

23:31

also have the empathy to

23:33

understand how others come from.

23:36

So in a tough situation where

23:39

you have to bring yourself to

23:41

face difficult days and times, the

23:45

resiliency is the

23:47

energy to go back at it at

23:50

all times. And that

23:52

is intrinsic to you. It's

23:54

not extrinsic, it's of

23:57

a personal faith and have a great...

24:00

great family and partner in my

24:02

life. Those

24:04

things give me the resiliency

24:07

to come back at it. I

24:09

don't feel unguarded. You

24:12

need to surround yourself with

24:14

people who can be tenacious

24:16

and helpful and critical. Not

24:18

yes people, but you got to be

24:21

surrounded with people. Then when you make

24:23

a decision, there's a support behind you.

24:26

I'm as good as my team is. I'm

24:28

not a one person team. So

24:31

my resiliency is drawn from

24:33

them extrinsically

24:35

and intrinsically from the

24:37

things I describe as

24:39

being my partner and wife, my

24:42

faith, and how I

24:44

exercise and treat myself

24:46

in terms of renewing energy.

24:48

Because energy is important resiliency.

24:50

The second thing is tenacity.

24:53

And tenacity is not giving up when

24:56

things get tough. And have

24:58

the principles, the true north, to

25:00

understand what is your responsibility. What

25:02

are you accountable for? And why

25:05

should you be here at this

25:07

at all times? One

25:27

of this podcast series indicates effective

25:30

business leaders create a deep sense

25:32

of purpose in their organizations. But

25:35

they encourage employees to deepen their

25:37

own self understanding and their

25:39

own sources of courage and endurance. Their

25:42

own deep purpose. You know you've

25:44

talked about courage not only as

25:46

an individual idea, at the same

25:49

time you've also talked about the

25:51

word purpose. And

25:53

I'm wondering if purpose and courage seem to

25:55

co-mingle in your mind. Do you think purpose

25:58

helps us think of courage? differently.

26:01

How do these two ideas go together for

26:03

you? Well, it's pretty simple. Courage

26:06

without purpose is just

26:09

an act of futility.

26:13

I can be courageous to jump from a 10 meter

26:16

platform into a pool that

26:18

takes courage to stand up there and just

26:20

jump without any training. You can get

26:22

hurt. But what is the

26:24

purpose? If you want to have a purpose,

26:27

go learn how to how

26:29

to dive and then do it right. So

26:31

when we go back and think about

26:34

the ethics and integrity that I talk

26:36

about, that's purpose. One of the

26:38

things you've talked about as CEO has

26:40

been courage at the organization level. This

26:43

idea that even the company or the culture

26:45

or the collective in the organization needs to

26:47

have courage. Why do you see that as

26:49

an important currency for business

26:52

and even leaders in business today?

26:55

When you're facing a very tough decision

26:57

and you make the decision to go

27:00

forward with a large

27:02

corporate reorganization like we're going

27:04

through right now at

27:06

Baxter, you will

27:09

find a lot of people caution you

27:11

why you shouldn't do this. Are you

27:13

sure there's too much going on? You're

27:15

going to get this thing wrong

27:17

because you're trying to do too much at

27:19

the same time. You've got to observe this.

27:21

You need to watch the work for some

27:23

concern about this. All those things come to

27:25

you and they come at lightning speed. So

27:29

the ability to understand

27:31

where you want to

27:33

go. Have the empathy and

27:36

the listening skills to take it

27:38

in and consider in your decision,

27:41

but never walk back on a decision

27:43

that you truly believe should be done.

27:46

But don't have an ego big enough that

27:48

you don't listen to your colleagues who are

27:51

telling you you may want to slow down.

27:53

You may want to do this. You take

27:55

everything into consideration and then make your decision.

27:57

But at the end of the day, This

28:00

is the Ceos. right?

28:03

To make the decision and.

28:06

The. Decision has a purpose. With.

28:08

The courage. And

28:11

the courage has to be

28:13

filled by data any twist

28:15

since. You can predict a

28:17

good outcome. Joe. Albedo

28:19

is Chairman, President and Ceo

28:21

of Baxter. International. Or

28:42

model my conversations with leaders in

28:44

the business world navigating the Twenty

28:46

first century business and violent. Visit

28:49

My Deep Purpose What that while

28:51

you're there. You can also find

28:53

out about my book titled Deep

28:56

Purpose. Companies that are serious about

28:58

establishing and working towards a D

29:00

Purpose find that A delivers game

29:02

changing results for the workers, the

29:05

shareholders, and the larger society. So

29:07

visit me at The purpose.net. This

29:10

podcast has produced by David Sin

29:13

and Steven Smith with help from

29:15

Craig Mcdonalds and Jennifer Dennis. The

29:17

theme music is by Get a

29:19

Nice Day and runs a quality.

29:22

Thanks for listening.