0:27

Take a deep breath in

0:30

through your nose. Hold

0:33

it.

0:36

Now, release slowly

0:43

again deep

0:46

in, helle hold

0:55

release, repeating

1:02

internally to yourself as

1:04

you connect to my voice.

1:08

I am deeply, deeply

1:11

well. I

1:15

am deeply well.

1:22

I am

1:24

deeply.

1:26

Wow.

1:30

I'm Debbie Brown and

1:32

this is the Deeply Well Podcast.

1:41

Welcome to Deeply Well, a soft

1:44

place to land on your journey. A

1:46

podcast for those that are curious, creative,

1:49

and ready to expand in higher consciousness

1:51

and self care. I'm Debbie Brown.

1:53

This is where we heal, this is where

1:56

we become. Today's

1:58

show has been about

2:01

two years in the making. Maybe

2:04

it is one that I

2:06

have been so excited about,

2:09

and I

2:11

just have a feeling that as you settle in to

2:13

listen to this show, you might want to get your journal,

2:16

keep it handy, you might want to get some

2:18

tea, and you might just want to find, if

2:20

you're able, a comfortable place to sit

2:24

as we dive in to the

2:26

story of a truly,

2:28

truly incredible person. Today's

2:31

guest is Shaka

2:33

Sanor, who currently serves

2:36

as the president and creative director of

2:38

Shaka Singor, Inc. Previously,

2:40

he held the role of vice president of Corporate

2:42

Communications at Navin, a

2:45

nine billion dollar valued online travel

2:47

management, corporate, card and expense management

2:50

company. During his time at Navin,

2:52

Shaka played a pivotal role in shaping

2:54

the company's strategic evolution. His

2:56

leadership was instrumental in the successful

2:58

execution of a comprehensive company

3:00

rebrand, the development of cutting edge

3:03

sales and success training programs,

3:05

and the formulation of a robust DEI

3:07

strategy. Shaka is a distinguished

3:10

author, with his memoir Writing My

3:12

Wrongs, Life, Death and

3:14

Redemption in an American Prison

3:17

achieving recognition on the New York Times

3:19

and the Washington Post bestseller

3:21

lists. His sophomore mainstream

3:23

release, Letters to the Sons of Society,

3:26

was released in twenty twenty two to critical

3:28

acclaim and was a two time Porchlight

3:30

bestseller. His twenty fourteen

3:33

TED talk, with over one point five

3:35

million views, Why Your Worst Deeds

3:37

Don't Define You, was featured

3:39

in the Year and Ideas Roundup. Shaka

3:42

is the recipient of numerous awards.

3:44

He was recently recognized by the Oprah

3:46

Winfrey Network as a sole Igniter and

3:49

the inaugural class of the Super Soul

3:51

one hundred, a dynamic group of trailblazers

3:53

whose vision and life's work are bringing

3:55

a higher level of consciousness to the world around

3:58

them and encouraging others to do the same.

4:01

He has taught at the University of Michigan and

4:03

shares the story of Redemption around the

4:05

world with top businesses, universities,

4:08

and in popular media. Today's

4:10

Shakust priority is shifting societal

4:12

narratives by creating content with deep

4:14

social impact and high entertainment

4:18

value. Whoo, welcome

4:21

to the show.

4:22

King, Thank you so much for having me. It's

4:24

such a pleasure to be here. I

4:26

know this was, you know, a couple of years in the making, but

4:29

I believe in divine timing and

4:31

so I am super excited to be in conversation

4:33

with you.

4:34

Oh I'm so happy. And we on

4:36

the drive over here, I was thinking about when we

4:38

met. We met a couple of years

4:40

ago, which is why I say two years in the making, because that

4:42

was like our moment of meeting. We met

4:45

in New York. We're both at the

4:47

Mental Wealth Alliance Expo, which

4:49

is a phenomenal, incredible

4:51

event that has gone on for the last three years.

4:54

That is the brainchild of my dear brother Charlott

4:56

Mane the God Yeah and I remember,

4:59

you know, we both were there. We were each

5:01

giving our own talks, and I think we were on some

5:03

panels and we were just being with the just

5:05

the gorgeous community that comes

5:07

out there. But we just clicked

5:09

right away and I was like, you gotta

5:11

get on the podcast please.

5:14

Yeah.

5:14

I mean, I think that's the beautiful thing about Vibrations,

5:17

right, It's when you're showing up authentically

5:19

and that space is so magical.

5:21

You know.

5:22

It's one of the many things that I love about what

5:24

Charlamagne and Doctor Alphie has convenced.

5:26

It's like it's a community.

5:28

Of people who are on this kind of quest of

5:30

really understand this deeper purpose in life and

5:33

so connecting instantaneously

5:35

just felt, you know, so authentically

5:38

true to what that space really embodies.

5:40

Yeah.

5:41

Absolutely.

5:42

You know, it's interesting reading your bio because

5:44

it's I mean, it's shocked full of just incredibly

5:48

substantial and impressive things kind

5:50

of in a range, like in a multitude of ways, like in

5:53

the business world and the human world,

5:55

and the really in the understanding

5:57

that you are a master teacher for

5:59

the world world, that you're in high service with

6:02

what you have experienced in your life and

6:04

the way that you have moved

6:06

through it and used it. But

6:09

even in reading miss it's like it doesn't

6:12

it really doesn't kind of scratch the surface

6:16

on the depth of experience in your

6:19

inner world. You know.

6:22

Yes, it's the funny thing about bios. You

6:24

know, always crims when I hear

6:26

my bio being read, because You're

6:28

right, it doesn't really encapsulate all of who

6:30

I am and what I'm about and the journey

6:33

I've been on. Yeah, I think it's great that we're

6:35

able to kind of timestamp these

6:37

moments in our career life. But

6:40

when you get to like that deeper meaning, that deeper

6:42

purpose, like a bio can't quite capture

6:44

that, which is one of the reasons I actually write

6:46

so I can fill in kind of the

6:49

things that's kind of between the lions.

6:51

M I

6:53

love that where I would love

6:55

to start with you. You know, something

6:58

I've been thinking about is we I'm

7:01

very curious your thoughts on this. When I think

7:04

about the way that purpose moves through my

7:06

life and the way that God speaks to me, there

7:08

are certain streams of

7:10

thought that I have been exploring

7:12

since childhood, and I didn't know why. Multitude

7:15

of things like very specific things to the

7:17

human condition. But I remember

7:19

being in my awareness young and I've always

7:22

just kind of tracked it. So growing

7:24

up, I didn't

7:26

directly know anyone that had been incarcerated.

7:29

I grew up with a single mom and

7:32

it was really us, so I didn't I

7:34

wasn't in close community with a lot of other people

7:37

having big experiences in that way, But

7:40

it was something that was always kind

7:42

of, you know, I think by nature

7:44

of growing up in la and some of the places

7:47

I grew up, by nature of being, you

7:49

know, a woman and a family of color, I think

7:51

that's an experience we're always hyper aware

7:53

of and always in

7:56

some ways connected to, even if it's

7:58

not your innerpersonal family. And

8:01

I remember, just since childhood, I

8:03

have always thought about

8:06

what happens to the brain and the heart in

8:08

prison, and I never really

8:10

understood why, but it's something

8:13

I have always always thought

8:15

about, and I think since I've come into all

8:18

of the work that I do now and the way that I see the

8:20

world now, it's like, I

8:23

know, we know this right, And people

8:25

have been on the front lines of prison reform

8:30

for centuries, for decades have

8:32

known this and have said.

8:33

This, but it's just.

8:36

It is so inhumane, cruel,

8:39

and it does not work. It

8:43

does not work. We are putting

8:45

people back into the world in

8:47

pieces and shards. It's

8:50

like the most next

8:53

to like slavery. It is the most

8:56

gaslighting I think we

8:58

could ever do to a collection of people

9:00

in this society. You know, it's.

9:03

It, yeah, I

9:05

mean, it's one of the saddest you

9:07

know, parts of our culture is how we

9:09

have handled these systems

9:11

that have a profile impact on

9:14

not just the black community, but the world at

9:16

large. When you think about you know, there's

9:18

over two point five million people incarcerated

9:20

at any point in time, about seventeen

9:22

million people who have felonies,

9:25

and so you know, when I think about

9:27

even my re entry into society.

9:29

I had to do a lot of work before I got out.

9:32

And one of the most heartbreaking things that I experienced

9:35

to this day is watching someone come

9:38

home who really isn't hole. It's

9:41

almost nearly impossible, you know. I

9:43

remember at one point people used to

9:45

be like, You're an anomaly, and I used to reject that,

9:48

like, I'm not an anomaly, Like I know so many incredible

9:50

human beings in that environment. And while

9:53

that's true, there's some things

9:55

that I had to discover on my own own journey

9:57

and turn in regards to like how deeply and pro

10:00

finally impacted my life was

10:02

by incarceration. You

10:04

don't go through that level of trauma and not

10:06

come out with deep scars. A lot

10:08

of those scars are invisible,

10:11

you know for a lot of us, because we come out

10:14

as kind of high performers.

10:17

And even that that ability

10:19

to perform at such a high level is

10:22

really triggered by our trauma of not wanting

10:24

to fail and not wanting to be

10:27

tripped up and trap back into that environment.

10:30

And so it's kind of like like you're on this you're

10:32

running, you know, you're running from this past. And

10:34

so in recent times I really

10:36

started to kind of peel back the layers,

10:38

and what I discovered was that one

10:41

I came home with arrested development. You know,

10:43

I went to prison when I was nineteen years old,

10:47

but that was only the beginning of my understanding

10:49

is that prior to prison, I lived

10:51

a very traumatic life. You know, from about thirteen

10:54

to the age of nineteen, I was

10:56

in the streets, and the level

10:58

of trauma though the street the coach has been

11:00

glorified. We just don't talk about

11:03

We don't talk about the trauma that

11:05

young black male specifically

11:07

experienced in our walk through

11:09

life and so forth. You know,

11:12

six years before I even got arrested,

11:16

I was, you know, in prison by

11:18

this ideology that my life could.

11:20

Only end in one of two ways. Dead

11:23

are in jail.

11:24

Both my older brothers had went to prison, Many

11:27

of my friends had went to prison. Many of them had been

11:29

shot killed. And

11:32

so I walked into prison with trauma, and then

11:34

that trauma was compounded by

11:37

the violence and brutality of the system. And

11:40

so when I begin to really start to think

11:42

about that, I'm like the fact that

11:44

I'm here having this conversation with you, I

11:46

recognize it as a miracle. I

11:48

don't take these things for granted, and I wake up in

11:50

the spirit of gratitude of that my

11:53

life is definitely

11:55

blessed in a myriad of ways.

11:57

Right.

11:57

Yes, I'm chalented and all those things,

11:59

but my spirit being able to

12:02

be intact, you know, a somewhat intact when

12:04

I left that environment is nothing

12:06

short of a miracle. And

12:08

so where I grieve

12:12

is that I see so

12:14

many men and women come home and their

12:16

families are excited to have them home as

12:18

they should be, but

12:20

their families are unaware of this deeper

12:23

sense of trauma that we're navigating.

12:25

So it's the rest of development. It is

12:27

the indignity of being in an environment

12:30

that strips you of whatever

12:32

similus of humanity you have left. And

12:35

it starts very early on, you know. I tell people

12:37

now, like one day of incarceration

12:39

is enough to break a human spirit. You

12:42

know, you have someone your first

12:45

experience of being stripped

12:47

of everything, like the physical stripping of your

12:49

clothes, the

12:51

access to parts of your body that you haven't even

12:54

you know, looked into, and to know that

12:56

that's normalized in that environment, you

12:59

know, so that boots Holy Plan out over and

13:01

over is where you

13:03

know, I'm constantly thinking about how

13:05

do we humanize and help people

13:07

understand that we can't hope

13:10

for people to come out and live a productive

13:12

life if we are unwilling

13:14

to recognize that this

13:16

system is designed to break them beyond.

13:18

Repair, break

13:21

foundry beyond repair.

13:24

God, bah,

13:28

I just want to sit in that for a second, because

13:32

this is our humanity, right like, this

13:34

is this

13:37

is not something to just you know, just

13:39

say wow, that's steep. It's like let it

13:41

in your heart wherever you're listening in right now,

13:43

I want you to think about the way that you

13:45

relate to the word dignity, the

13:48

way that you are able or

13:50

not able based on life's experiences

13:52

to feel safe inside of your body, and

13:56

the way you would react if you

13:58

didn't have the ability to make any choices

14:00

for yourself, especially choices

14:03

about your own body.

14:06

It's it's

14:09

just and you know, we obviously

14:12

societally we split this into

14:14

this kind of conversation and narrative about right

14:17

and wrong and who deserves what and

14:19

what is you know, recourse for a certain

14:22

kind of behavior. But my

14:24

belief and understanding of the

14:27

human spirit and of the

14:29

soul and of God is you don't.

14:33

It's an incredibly rare

14:36

kind of experience to find

14:38

yourself in that kind of environment

14:41

and not have had been abused

14:44

or traumatized in some way. First,

14:47

we are only as good as the choices we have

14:50

access to, right, And it's like society

14:52

always wants to talk about making better choices

14:55

and do something different, And it's like there

14:58

is a legion of people that the

15:02

choice is dark or dark, right, Like

15:04

there's not a higher choice that you can make.

15:06

You're only you can only do with what's

15:09

in front of you, what you have access to.

15:11

I want to read this piece

15:14

from your book that was incredibly

15:16

powerful for me and

15:19

to me, this speaks to the greater

15:21

essence of how we are designed to

15:23

come into enlightenment. So

15:26

in your book you shared and

15:29

just to kind of center this for everyone, you

15:31

did nineteen years in prison, you did

15:33

seven years in solitary confinement,

15:36

and four and a half of those years were

15:38

in one place with no movement. It's

15:44

such a miracle to have you here. Thank you, Thank

15:47

you. In your book you said, instead

15:49

of solitary confinement, sell it became

15:51

a university. It became a

15:53

creator's den, it became

15:56

a meditation room. There

15:58

was nothing more liberating to me, even being

16:00

able to reimagine the most brutal

16:03

of environments as something positive.

16:09

How do you get there

16:12

in the midst of that?

16:15

Yeah, it's such a profound question

16:17

and one that I have been you

16:20

know, answering, you know, within

16:23

myself for a long time, and you know, there are

16:25

things. Again, it's miraculous

16:27

that I was able to get there. And part

16:29

of that miracle was just being literate, you

16:32

know. I was really fortunate

16:34

I met some of the most incredible mentors in the

16:36

world.

16:38

Uh.

16:38

These are men who were in

16:40

our serving life sentences. These

16:42

are men who some have died in

16:44

prison. These

16:48

are these

16:55

are men who so

16:59

something redeemable in me, and

17:02

they got in me the books. And I was

17:04

fortunate that I was literate

17:08

enough, you know that I can actually read and

17:10

read these books. And so, you

17:12

know, books became like a

17:15

portal into other worlds, a possibility

17:18

reading people's story who had went through

17:20

adversity, who had overcome adversity,

17:23

who had to navigate the

17:26

brutality of the systems that existed during

17:28

their times. You

17:30

know, those books helped

17:32

me understand that no matter no

17:38

matter how many time life knocks you down, you

17:40

can get up. And

17:43

if you decide to get up, you have to get

17:45

up swinging. And so

17:48

I began to kind

17:51

of structure my days almost as if

17:53

I was at a university, and

17:55

I would study a different subject matter each

17:58

hour. Whatever books I had act says too. Sometimes

18:01

I was fortunate to be able to order books.

18:04

I would hustle and barter books,

18:06

you know. So I had my friends. Uh

18:09

they used to smuggle me cigarettes down

18:11

into solitary for me to sell, and

18:14

they would basically peel

18:16

the back of lowlightbrary books open, flatten

18:19

the tobacco with it, and then they would

18:21

you know, glue it down with toothpaste,

18:23

put it in the books. Then I would get it. I

18:26

would let it dry out. You I would just like roll up

18:28

these little cigarettes and I would have guys

18:30

order me books. I would have them order

18:32

me notepads so that I can write. But

18:36

those books for portals, you know, they were portals

18:39

into another world. And I know I would not be

18:41

here if I

18:43

was not literate. You know, when

18:47

the OG's as I call them, when

18:49

they was trying to help me see that you

18:51

know I could, I would one day be free. I

18:54

just didn't believe it. You know, I was nineteen years

18:56

old looking at two decades. I mean

18:58

at nineteen years old, you can barely think

19:00

two weeks down the line that along two decades,

19:03

and so words alone

19:05

weren't enough. And when

19:08

they introduced me to books, it was really interesting

19:10

because it wasn't the

19:12

books that people think like. They

19:14

introduced me to books like Pimp the Iceberg,

19:17

Slams Dope Thing, Donald Goins.

19:20

But those stories cracked

19:22

oupen the idea that I can escape. I

19:25

can get out of prison anytime I wanted to

19:27

by opening up a book. And

19:29

then once those books were exhausted,

19:31

they was like, now read this Malcolm X autobiography.

19:35

And what I saw in Malcolm's

19:37

story was this determination, this

19:39

will. I know, people you know, think

19:41

about his work as a as an activist

19:44

or human rights, civil rights, you

19:46

know, leader. But

19:49

what I saw Malcolm as was intellectual,

19:51

you know, somebody who was curious, somebody who

19:53

was willing to read the

19:55

Dictionary from A to C. And

19:59

what Malcolm's book did was it

20:01

led me to all these other books, you know, it led

20:03

me to reading philosophy and understanding,

20:06

you know, self help books and poetry.

20:09

And you know, some of the most brilliant

20:11

writers from the Harlem Renaissance were like, you

20:14

know, I was able to escape into those worlds,

20:16

you know, but also read for to

20:18

escape in other worlds. It's like Jackie Collins

20:20

Hollywood Wives. It's like those

20:23

books were like so turned up, and

20:25

you know, Sidney Sheldon and Stephen King

20:28

and you know, all these books allowed

20:30

me to escape, you know, and and

20:32

that was how I

20:34

was able to maintain my sanity. It

20:38

was a book that even helped me become aware

20:40

of what happens when you're in a solitary confinement.

20:43

There's a book called Cages of Steel, and

20:45

in a book there's a psychiatrist. He's

20:48

outlining exactly what solitary

20:50

confinement does to the human

20:52

mind and how in this book

20:55

was really about how they broke up the Black

20:57

Panther Party, Black Liberation Army

21:00

of American Indian Movement. The

21:02

idea was to use solitary

21:04

confinement as a tool to

21:07

really drive people crazy. And

21:09

so when I would see myself drifting

21:11

into some of the things that he

21:13

outlined, I would just grab a book

21:16

and a lot of times I would just open up to any page

21:18

and just start reading. And usually

21:21

it was like you know, Nelson Mandela, you know,

21:23

it was a side of secord. It

21:25

was as a man think of and so

21:28

just the ability to grab a book and open

21:30

a page, it jarred me

21:32

out of that moment, you know, And then.

21:34

You know, I'll tell you this last point.

21:37

This is when I knew

21:40

I had to fight for my

21:43

soul.

21:45

You know, there were two things happening.

21:46

One I wanted to transform my life is I had a responsibility

21:48

to my oldest son. But I

21:51

also knew I had to save my soul. And

21:53

I remember this officer

21:55

coming to myself and

21:57

he wanted to do a strip search. And I'm already in military

22:00

confinement. And

22:03

this guy was uneducated,

22:07

you know, inarticulate. He

22:09

looked very you

22:12

know, just ragged and torn

22:14

down. And I remember saying

22:16

to him, like, I will not give

22:19

you the dignity of stripping me, So whatever

22:21

the consequence is for that, and

22:23

let's come on with the consequence. And

22:26

what I decided upon was that I would

22:28

never let anybody who was intellectually inferior

22:30

to me dictate the choices

22:33

and the decisions that I'm making my life.

22:35

That's how I knew I would never go back to prison.

22:46

Deeply.

22:47

Wow, that

22:53

is so

22:56

powerful, and that.

23:00

That power, right, that's

23:02

the transcendence that

23:04

knowing that under that is the enlightenment

23:07

in such a profound way in

23:10

physical reality. Wow,

23:15

there's so much of what you just said. I was trying

23:17

to keep track of my notes in my mind

23:20

of like I want to get back to that. I want to go back to

23:22

that.

23:24

Hm.

23:25

Okay, first, just interesting

23:27

to me. When

23:29

I was thirteen and fourteen, I read Pimp and

23:32

I read Malcolm X and

23:35

both of those books were really revolutionary

23:37

to me in a lot of ways in understanding

23:39

the human psyche, the human condition. And

23:43

I've kind of noticed, so

23:45

Malcolm X has been a hero of mine since I

23:47

was eight. That's when the

23:50

Denzel Spike Lee Malcolm

23:52

X movie came out four hours long. I

23:55

remember it was the summer, and I

23:57

would spend the days by

23:59

myself at my aunt's house. Right, everybody

24:02

got to work, so I was there and

24:05

I would turn on the TV. And I remember it was playing

24:07

on a loop in on HBO

24:09

at the time, and I watched it every

24:11

single day of the summer, four

24:13

hours till I learned it by heart. And

24:17

so I

24:19

think Malcolm X is one of the greatest beings

24:21

to ever grace the planet. And I

24:23

think we are so incredibly

24:26

fortunate to he

24:29

was not alive in my lifetime, but within

24:32

my lifetime his work has been very felt

24:35

and relevant in powerful ways.

24:37

But something I've noticed, and I'm curious what you

24:39

think about this, you know, I've

24:41

noticed that there's always two versions of a

24:44

hero at any given time in history. Right,

24:46

So while we had Malcolm, we also had Doctor

24:48

King, we had Martin. But while

24:52

I can see feel

24:54

feel profoundly grateful for

24:57

the power of doctor Martin Luther King felt

25:00

more connected to Malcolm's message, very

25:02

similar when I think of other heroes in my life, Like

25:05

Tupac has been a life long I've been in

25:07

a lifelong deep connection with his

25:09

music, and I think that there is something

25:12

to having a traumatized

25:14

experience and being

25:16

able to come into the power that you just

25:19

described in that cell that

25:22

resonates with my soul based on my

25:24

life and the complex trauma I've experienced,

25:27

and the radical nature of

25:29

that is something that is always much

25:31

like we're describing in how people end up in

25:33

prison. It's like those

25:36

that are a little more radical in that way,

25:38

whatever that word means to society,

25:41

seem to be invoked

25:45

such a violent reaction in people.

25:48

So it's like you're already traumatized,

25:51

which is what got you, you know, for those that know

25:53

Malcolm story, for those that know Pak story,

25:55

and many more, you're already traumatized,

25:58

and you move through all of that to

26:00

find this power inside

26:03

and then the world sees it and it makes

26:05

them so uncomfortable and so scared

26:08

that they want to invoke even more trauma

26:10

and violence on you and

26:12

I think that that is so indicative of what happens

26:15

in a lot of our and a lot of our prison systems.

26:20

So that was one piece. Hearing

26:26

you speak right now answers

26:29

this lifelong question I've had about

26:31

Nelson Mandela. Something

26:33

I have always wondered is how

26:35

do you do thirty years alone, stripped

26:39

of your dignity, stripped of your family, stripped

26:43

of humanity and comfort

26:46

and connection, and

26:48

you immediately immediately

26:50

leave prison and lead a country,

26:53

no therapy right, no time

26:56

to in between, to quote unquote

26:58

heal to be on your journey to

27:00

have your own you know, rest

27:04

and nourishment. You immediately lead,

27:08

and you lead from love that

27:10

has always just boggled my mind.

27:13

And hearing you speak now,

27:16

I understand.

27:16

What the path is.

27:17

It is this, It

27:20

is this profound awakening inside.

27:22

Absolutely yeah, you know, inside

27:25

of us is just these beautiful, unexplored

27:28

worlds. You know, when people

27:31

hear my story sometimes they're like, you know,

27:33

I can't imagine myself

27:35

going through you what you've gone through.

27:38

I mean I can't imagine either until I was there

27:41

and being able to explore

27:43

that internal world which I found

27:45

that you know, when

27:47

you think about Mandela and you think about Malcolm,

27:50

is that that was something that they both had in

27:52

common, is the exploration

27:54

of their own worlds and ask them

27:57

questions. One

27:59

of the things I got really into philosophy

28:01

while I was in solitary. I was always

28:03

curious about, you know, how does

28:05

the mind work? And I

28:08

remember reading the Apology and

28:10

Socrates said the unexamined life isn't

28:12

worth living. And when

28:14

I began to examine my life, I began

28:16

to journal and write down like

28:18

what happened to me? You know, I started

28:21

to ask these vario essential questions.

28:23

How did I go from an

28:25

honor roll scholarship student with James of

28:27

being a doctor and an artist too, serving

28:30

not my most promising years in prison, And

28:33

that led to me just really

28:35

being honest about what had happened. The

28:38

level of trauma that my body has experienced

28:40

and that has been through it's

28:43

probably unimaginable the most people. The

28:45

brutality of the street

28:47

culture that I lived in. You know, most people

28:49

can't even comprehend the

28:51

magnitude of the suffering that happens in that

28:54

space because so much of it is

28:56

glorified. And

28:59

so for me, it's that internal journey

29:02

that I'm always inviting people

29:05

on to go on. It's like the journey

29:07

of self is beautiful, it's powerful,

29:10

and you on earthed so many things about

29:12

yourself that you didn't even believe was possible.

29:15

And it all ties back to, you

29:17

know, what you was saying earlier about the

29:19

traumatic way that our

29:22

lives play out up until the moment

29:24

where people are confronted with our

29:26

innate power. You

29:29

know, Struggle has been our Dane from

29:31

birth, right Like we know we

29:33

know the mother's story of giving

29:36

birth, you know, we can you know, viscerally

29:39

experience. You know, a woman pushing

29:42

a child out through sheer labor and you

29:44

know, exhausting and pain and all the

29:47

things. We don't know the child's

29:49

story because they can't articulate it, you know,

29:51

other than with a cry. But

29:53

when you think about what

29:55

that struggle is to get out of the womb,

29:59

doctors pulling on your head, I must push

30:01

you from outside. So we

30:03

come into this world through struggle,

30:05

I mean even through conception. You

30:08

know, there's a war for sperm

30:10

to reach the egg. It's not like an easy

30:13

chill pathway. It's like, you know, I got to get

30:15

there, you know, And

30:17

so that's ordained. It's in us, you know, to

30:20

navigate adversity, to

30:22

overcome obstacles, to overcome barriers

30:26

to entry into this thing that we call

30:28

the world. And so when

30:30

you recognize that that is cellular, that's

30:32

in ourselves, it's in our.

30:34

DNA, and

30:37

you attached to that through that.

30:39

Internal journey, and you recognize like

30:42

I was born through struggle, you know, and

30:44

I fought to be here. You know, every human being

30:47

that it's on this earth right now fought

30:50

to be here. And I

30:52

think when we begin to honor that, we

30:55

actually begin to learn how to fight in the best

30:57

interests of our own health,

30:59

will being, salvation, our

31:02

humanity. But when you take

31:04

that for granted, it's easy to extinguish

31:06

that. And what happens is when you come up against

31:09

a force that is making

31:11

you forcing you to confront your

31:14

unwillingness or inability to

31:16

recognize what your humanist is, you

31:18

have to extinguish that flame. And

31:21

so, you know what Pot represented

31:23

was, here's what it means to be human

31:26

as it exists in this world from

31:28

a black male perspective, and

31:30

that's threatening, and that's challenging, and some

31:34

of those challenges existed within him. He

31:36

hadn't quite reconciled, you

31:38

know, and so it shows up in these external

31:40

ways. And you know, you think about

31:43

Malcolm and the person who pulled that

31:45

trigger. What did Malcolm

31:47

represent, you know, to that person

31:50

when it comes to having to extinguish

31:52

that beautiful humanity, that complex

31:55

humanity that challenged us to think differently

31:57

and to fight for our

32:00

human rights, which is just basic

32:02

dignity, you know, the things we're still fighting

32:05

for today and we're figuring out today, and you

32:08

know, sadly we're still confronted with people

32:11

who want to extinguish that

32:13

that that flame. You know, they do it in a very much

32:15

more sophisticated way now. But

32:19

you know, my my push is for as

32:21

humans, if we start

32:23

to collectively go inward and

32:26

recognize our connectivity to

32:28

every human being that we encounter, like,

32:31

we can win the war. You know,

32:33

we're losing battles right now, but we

32:35

can win a war, you know, but we have

32:37

to be willing to acknowledge

32:40

and reconcile that, you

32:42

know, this journey was ordained for us.

32:44

M H.

32:49

Yes, yes, yes, I

32:52

was talking recently with a new friend, doctor

32:55

Tobias Escher, who's based in Germany

32:57

and he does. He's a neuse scientist. He does

33:00

a lot of studies on the

33:02

brain and on trauma, and he just got

33:04

funding for this new study where

33:07

they are proving

33:09

a genetic response that there

33:12

is a certain demographic,

33:14

certain percentage of people who have had

33:17

complex trauma where

33:19

the opposite effect happens on them,

33:22

where their body

33:24

is actually actually like catalyzes

33:27

into this almost superhero

33:30

like experience where

33:33

you actually have so

33:36

much more energy to accomplish,

33:38

Your brain works faster, you're able

33:40

to have these breakthrough thoughts, You're able to accomplish

33:44

this kind of highly

33:46

varied and expansive life, doing

33:49

a lot of different kinds of things. And

33:52

of course you know on the other side of that, you have a

33:54

trauma that can really keep you stuck

33:56

and maybe completely repress

33:59

all the innate gifts and powers that exist

34:02

inside of you. But there is this response

34:04

that some people have where

34:06

it almost turns you into superhuman

34:09

and you are able to accomplish feats

34:13

that the average person could and

34:15

the person that has the most privileged

34:17

background or family experience

34:19

could just absolutely never have. That's

34:22

what I hear in your story, and I think it's so incredible

34:26

that we're even having advancements where we can

34:28

study the brain in that way, because

34:31

I think there's many of us that feel that way,

34:33

that have certain kind of experiences

34:35

that should utterly crush you, Like it

34:37

doesn't make sense to not only keep

34:39

going, but to keep going with a level of peace

34:42

or poise or joy or

34:46

groundedness, you know, But that is

34:49

a possibility with the

34:52

kind of acceptance of what is present,

34:55

but the openness to expand

34:57

in other ways even if your physical

34:59

reality.

35:00

He doesn't.

35:02

I'm a meditation teacher. I'm curious

35:05

what were some of your most powerful

35:07

experiences with meditation.

35:11

How did that feel even when you got started,

35:13

and where does it take you? And do you still do it?

35:15

Yeah? No, absolutely, I still meditate. You

35:17

know.

35:18

I remember when I

35:20

first encountered the word meditation.

35:23

I wasn't quite sure what it really meant.

35:25

And I was reading

35:28

a random pamphlet insolitary.

35:30

This was the first time I was in solitary, and

35:32

you know, I would read anything I can get my hands on,

35:35

and I remember it offered it's

35:37

a very what seems like a

35:39

simple practice of just like five

35:41

second inhales, five second exels,

35:45

free your mind, release the energy, and

35:48

my mind went bonkers.

35:50

I mean, every horrible

35:53

traumatic experience came up, you

35:55

know, all the things that I was

35:58

responsible for, all the things that happened

36:00

to me, you know, and

36:02

then it was interspersed with imaginations

36:04

of dreams, and I was like, Yo, this is it's

36:07

almost like that ticker tape at the bottom of

36:09

like an ESPN screen where it's like NonStop

36:12

information, and.

36:14

You know, so early on it was frightening, you know.

36:16

But what I didn't realize was that I was

36:20

getting an opportunity to know myself

36:23

and to appreciate myself and to

36:26

value like the space

36:28

that I hold on the earth, you know. And

36:30

it began to become

36:32

a thing that I kind of came back to, like

36:35

it wasn't you know. My life

36:38

was not like one of those just kind of come

36:40

to Jesus moments that people

36:42

often imagine for someone who was incarcerated.

36:45

It is a series of things, you know.

36:47

It was a series of trying and trying to figure

36:49

it out.

36:51

And what was for me that helped

36:55

is I was willing to go on the journey

36:57

to understand me, and

37:00

I was willing to fight through

37:02

the discomfort of confronting

37:05

ugly things about my life, you know,

37:07

and when I

37:09

think about, you know, your earlier point

37:11

of this resiliency and this kind

37:13

of superhuman way of being,

37:17

I know it's a response

37:20

to like I've

37:23

seen the worst of it. I've seen

37:25

the worst of it, and if

37:27

you can get through the moment, I believe this is what I

37:29

learned through my meditation, is this is one

37:31

jewel that I live

37:33

by. If you can get through the pain of the moment,

37:36

you can come out on the other side of anything. And

37:39

I know that to be true. You

37:42

know, solitary confinement

37:46

was extremely

37:48

brutal. When

37:50

I went to prison, there was

37:52

nothing that I feared in terms of physical

37:54

safety. I had been shot,

37:57

I had shot people, I had done

38:00

bullets. I have had people dug bullets.

38:02

So I had been through all the trauma. I've been beat

38:05

and jumped and robbed, and you know, all

38:07

the traumas that you know comes

38:09

with the suffering on the streets.

38:12

So I wasn't afraid, you know, going

38:14

in. I wasn't afraid for my physical safety. I

38:16

grew up with older brothers, grew up

38:18

fighting, you know, from the east side of the trade. It's

38:20

like fighting is a right to pass. So I know

38:22

how to take care of myself. So I wasn't afraid of that.

38:26

The horror of what I witnessed

38:29

in solitary confinement was the one thing

38:31

that I was afraid of, is that

38:33

this environment would claim my mind.

38:38

One horrific event I talked about it in

38:40

the book is when this man set himself on

38:42

fire.

38:43

Oh my God.

38:44

And he did it as a result

38:46

of being bullied by the officers. So

38:49

these officers would harassed them

38:51

about his sexuality, and he set

38:54

himself on fire and sail. And

38:56

what I remember most about it is one of the most

38:58

haunting things I've ever experience, is that

39:02

he began to do

39:05

what I believe, I'm not sure that I couldn't

39:07

translate was a prayer. They

39:10

had the cadence and the

39:12

rhythm of a calling out to a higher

39:14

being in Spanish.

39:17

And then he set himself on fire. And

39:20

you know, I remember just sitting with that. You

39:22

know, they took him out of the cell, put

39:25

him in a suicide watchsal and they brought him

39:27

right back, like literally within twenty four

39:29

hours, and he set himself on fire

39:31

again. And then they eventually took him

39:33

somewhere else, and I

39:35

remember just sitting with the thought of like when

39:41

will my time come? When

39:44

will my breaking point come? There

39:47

were people around me

39:49

who were what we call cutters, which

39:52

meant that they would take anything that they could

39:54

to you know, cut their bodies

39:57

and you know, or cause harms

40:00

themselves. You know, one man, he swallowed

40:02

the battery and you know, one

40:04

man cut his This is like

40:06

graphic, but he literally took a staple

40:09

and cut his geniteilia up. And

40:13

so this was every day,

40:15

every day, every day, and

40:17

the officer's response to it would be

40:20

to come with what we call the goon squad

40:22

or their extraction team, and

40:24

they would basically come in with shields

40:26

and pepper spray, pepper spray the person, come

40:30

in, wrestle them down. And then these bunks

40:32

that we had, they had these

40:37

these circular pieces of steel

40:39

that they could loop the things

40:42

that they tie us down to the bed in. And

40:45

so that was day. That was every

40:47

day, every day. You're

40:49

waiting on the moment when you've

40:51

reached your own threshold. And

40:54

so that was the only thing I was ever afraid of is

40:56

that when I reached that moment, you

40:59

know, and eventually I got to a space

41:01

where I knew I would never reach that moment. The space, the

41:03

space I told you about earlier, but

41:05

that's the only thing I have a fear, was like I would

41:08

lose my mind in there, and

41:11

I wouldn't be a

41:13

human.

41:14

When I came, you know.

41:15

And I've watched men leave

41:17

there that were broken,

41:20

and men that leave there

41:22

who are scary human

41:24

beings because they've been so

41:26

damaged. And you know,

41:29

and I would think to myself, like, would

41:31

be okay with this person living next door to

41:34

my loved ones in this condition?

41:38

And so the interesting thing for me is that we

41:40

are called to accountability. You

41:42

know, if you serve time in prison, when you get

41:44

out, you have to be accountable. People

41:47

want you to make

41:50

it right with your community. They

41:52

want you to tow the line. They want you to follow

41:54

all the rules. And

41:57

our responsibility is extreme. You're

41:59

own parole, you're not quite out of prison. For

42:01

all, agents come to your door whenever they want to. They

42:04

come into your home. They search

42:06

for weapons, they say, search for things

42:08

that are legal. You

42:10

know, you go through all these things, and whatever

42:13

people's belief about that is, you know, it's fine,

42:15

Okay. We need to be a little more responsible,

42:18

We need to be monitored more Okay, got it.

42:21

What is society's responsibility? What

42:23

is the system's responsibility? What

42:25

is the system's responsibility to the community.

42:28

If you are destraying human beings

42:31

and there's no culpability, there's no responsibility,

42:34

there's no accountability. That

42:37

is problematic, and like that

42:39

is something that we have

42:41

to address and I try to address in

42:43

my work by having these conversations.

42:45

Yeah,

42:54

deeply. Wow.

43:00

The first thing that I thought of when you said,

43:03

you know, make it right with the community, is like,

43:05

that's such a challenging thing to reconcile

43:08

within your own body, depending on your experiences,

43:11

because if your community never made it right

43:13

with you, your community failed

43:15

you, and that's part of how you became

43:17

the person that entered the prison system.

43:20

It's like, where

43:24

societally do we expect

43:26

all of this knowing and all of this work

43:29

to come from? You know, for most people,

43:32

like, how do we have this expectation?

43:34

What experiences is anyone

43:37

having in prison that would lend

43:39

itself to them being able to now

43:41

have this emotional depth and capacity

43:43

when they re enter the world.

43:45

It's absurd, it is

43:47

it is absurd, and it's

43:49

obnoxious. You think about the average

43:51

reading level in prison's third

43:53

grade. When you think about

43:56

the level of trauma without

43:58

any therapeutic healing, yes, is

44:01

non existent.

44:02

Without even you know, when

44:05

we think about how sensitive our nervous

44:08

systems are, right, and we're now finally

44:10

beginning to really unpack that collectively.

44:14

And you are in a system like a prison, right

44:16

where you are not getting adequate

44:19

access to fresh air, You're not getting

44:21

adequate humane access to

44:23

sun, right to being anywhere

44:26

in the world. You do not

44:28

have a bed, a real bed,

44:31

right, and you are forced to be in situations

44:34

that really press

44:37

against your dignity and your safety

44:40

in so many ways. You have fluorescent lighting

44:43

everywhere right there,

44:46

cinderblocks, concrete steel,

44:49

these are all things that make

44:51

you completely disassociate from

44:54

your physical body. There is not a

44:56

way to really

44:58

heal and grow yourself in

45:00

that space in any capacity. You are

45:03

coming out worse.

45:04

Yeah, when you and when you when you talk about the physical

45:06

body, you know, those

45:09

are just the environmental things we

45:11

don't even think about. You know, you're

45:13

going to visit, You get strip search

45:16

every time you go on to visit. So

45:18

just the indignity of that repetitive

45:21

reality in order to go and

45:23

spend time with your loved ones, and then to try

45:25

to come back and carry those memories is

45:28

immediately disrupted by a strip

45:30

search. There's no agency

45:32

over your physical being. You

45:35

don't own your body, you know. I remember

45:39

getting a tattoo and going getting taken the solitary.

45:41

I got caught getting a tattoo, and

45:44

so I was written a misconduct about my physical

45:46

body and what.

45:48

I could or could not do to it. You

45:51

know, health care was deplorable.

45:54

You know, I went I had like a back

45:56

injury from like lifting weights in prison,

45:59

and I didn't see a chiropractor

46:02

until I got out of prison. And when

46:04

you're talking about nervous system and made me think

46:06

about that first experience I went

46:08

to the chiropractor.

46:10

I remember going into.

46:11

The room

46:13

where they do the X rays and

46:16

like it was such a foreign experience

46:18

to me that I was like, miss

46:20

I miss heard the information. But the lady was like, you

46:22

know, I just remember her pointing

46:25

me like like get up there. I

46:27

clammed on top of a file cap, and

46:30

I love about it because it's like so ridiculous. I was literally

46:32

sitting up on top of a foul cabinet when

46:35

a lady came in and she was like, why

46:37

are you sitting up there? I was like, I thought you stant me to get

46:39

up there. She's like no, she's like to put

46:41

your stuff right there, you know. And it

46:44

was the most REDICUTI I mean, it was like a clod

46:46

cap And I was like, these people are so

46:49

bizarre. Why does she have to me like clambing

46:51

on this chair, getting up on this floul cabinet. And

46:54

it was just the reality of not even

46:56

having the human experience

46:58

of just going to have a regular

47:00

doctor's visit and to

47:02

figure out, you know, all the things. So, you

47:05

know, the environmental factors people

47:08

don't consider is that And this

47:10

is part of our society, right We're we're

47:12

very punitive, you know, when

47:15

someone does something that we don't like, we're

47:17

punitive. We're like, counsel that person, lock

47:20

them up, throw away the key. If

47:22

there's a brutality that exists in us

47:24

as human beings that we don't really acknowledge,

47:26

like you know, part of it is like we still

47:29

operate out of our reptilian brain a lot when

47:31

it comes to other people who have

47:33

offended or hurt us, or disagree

47:35

with us for that matter. But

47:38

what people don't think about is over ninety

47:40

percent of people who are incarcerated will

47:42

at some point come home, and we

47:44

have a collective responsibility in how

47:46

they come home.

47:48

You know.

47:49

I talk to my friends all the time about the

47:52

nature of watching people go in and out,

47:54

and people are like, that's so stupid. It's

47:57

like, why would this person get out after

47:59

all those years and go back at How

48:01

was this person taught the the function? Like

48:03

I had to learn things and relationships,

48:06

Like, you know, I went into prison when

48:08

I was nineteen.

48:08

I was a kid.

48:09

I never had an adult relationship. I

48:11

didn't have conflict resolution skills.

48:14

I didn't know, like, oh, an argument

48:16

doesn't mean finality, because

48:19

in prison it definitely means that. It

48:21

means, if not finality, it

48:24

means that an argument

48:26

escalates the high levels of violence. What

48:29

do you do with that when you come home and you get into a conflict

48:32

with somebody who aren't even

48:34

thinking about violence, But this is your only

48:36

way of being for decades. And

48:38

so I'm like, I remember

48:41

getting to arguments with

48:43

my son's mom when we were together, and

48:45

I'm like, I can't shank this, lady.

48:48

It's not the way that you resolve conflict.

48:51

But I had never saw an argument

48:53

that did not end in violence enough

48:56

for like living to twenty plus years,

48:59

right, So there was no you know, the only

49:01

repair was who was going to leave the sale block,

49:04

you know, voluntary or through

49:06

brute force. And so when you grow up in

49:08

that and then you come home and

49:10

you're expected to just act civilly and

49:13

we're not putting the things in place

49:15

to ensure that people are coming

49:17

home healthy and whole. To me, that's

49:19

more criminal than whatever led

49:21

them down that path in the first place.

49:25

Yes, Shaka,

49:27

I would like to talk to you as

49:31

sadly I get to the close of this episode.

49:35

I wish we had a couple more hours. There's a lot,

49:38

so much more. But when

49:40

you got out, talk

49:44

to me about how you

49:46

started your journey of cultivating

49:49

joy. How

49:52

did you start? Because another thing

49:54

that I've just really

49:56

deeply connected with that you've said

49:58

is freedom

50:01

to me is gratitude. Freedom

50:04

is dancing for no reason at

50:06

all, it's laughing late into

50:08

the night. But the greatest expression

50:10

of freedom to me now is the ability

50:12

to emote and cry. Freedom

50:15

is trusting that the moment you're in

50:17

is divine. That's what I

50:19

choose to believe. This

50:22

statement is from a man that

50:24

has accessed deep

50:27

joy, an inner fire, an inner

50:29

reservoir of innate

50:32

goodness. How did you

50:34

start to court joy

50:36

in your life and bring it in.

50:38

That's a great question. You know.

50:40

It took me seventeen years

50:43

before I cried. I

50:45

was incarcera concracerated, and

50:49

I was in a visiting room when it happened. And

50:52

the friend who came to saw me see panics.

50:55

It's like, you know, are you going to be in danger

50:57

because you cry? And

51:00

I laughed so hard at her panic,

51:04

you know, because I was so happy that

51:06

I had read gained

51:09

ability to

51:11

be a full emotional human being in

51:15

terms of joy, you know, getting

51:17

out of prison. Early

51:19

on, my joy was just in the hustle of selling books

51:22

out of the trunk of my car and

51:24

seeing that smile on people's face after

51:26

they've heard my story and I've sold

51:28

them a book, and them following up and being like, yo,

51:30

I read your book.

51:31

Had me up all night because

51:34

you know, I love the hustle.

51:35

You know that that that there there was some goods

51:37

that you learned from hustling in the streets.

51:39

And I love that, you know, I love.

51:41

That energy of just like pursuing

51:43

a dream and a vision and

51:46

then it was just like friends.

51:48

You know, I have friends that I can laugh deeply

51:51

with and richly with and you

51:53

know the experience I have. I have a wild

51:55

family. My family is just like you

51:58

know, I have this A total was a total

52:00

nine of us. My younger brother was murdered, you

52:02

know, two years ago. My younger

52:04

brother, Sharad was murdered in

52:07

July twenty one.

52:09

So there's eight of us siblings.

52:10

You know.

52:11

Then we have cousins who we

52:13

kind of function like siblings because all of us are like

52:15

in the same age range.

52:17

And my family is hilarious.

52:19

This is non stop hilarity, Like as

52:21

soon as you walk in, somebody's cracking jokes

52:23

or you know, somebody's telling a funny story.

52:26

And so my deepest joy is in connection

52:29

to people and

52:31

then just being in my purpose. Like when I'm writing,

52:33

I'm in a whole other

52:35

flow state. You know, it's my It's

52:38

probably one

52:40

of my greatest, you know, ways

52:43

of really experiencing personal joy

52:45

is like writing. I love

52:47

music. I'm a I'm a big, big music

52:49

fan. I love the artistic

52:52

process. So just studying how other people

52:54

create art and

52:56

it's you know, it's so great,

52:59

and I wish other men would

53:01

lean into the idea

53:04

that, you know, life doesn't

53:06

have to be solely about all the things you're responsible

53:09

for, you know, if

53:11

you can pay attention to children, like

53:14

children have so much fun, you

53:17

know, doing nothing like making turning

53:19

the tearing a box up and turning them into a thing.

53:22

And I love that. So, you know, a lot of my joy

53:24

isn't being a dad, you know, and really.

53:26

Being present with my

53:28

son and all the iterations of where

53:31

he's at in life and mentoring

53:33

you know. You know, I get to meet these cool,

53:36

funny you know, high school kids

53:38

and college students who are just like

53:41

on this you know,

53:43

unmarred journey of like we

53:46

want.

53:46

To change the world, you know.

53:47

So to me, joy is found and pretty

53:50

much all the things I do. You know, sometimes

53:52

it's simple as just taking a drive and

53:54

riding with my music really loud, because I'm you know,

53:56

I still got that element of myself

53:59

that's like I'm so hood, but

54:03

you know, I just try to find it in deep conversations

54:06

and being intentional about

54:08

creating space for that. And

54:11

you know, and I'm and and I'm still getting

54:14

to this next level of it you know, it's

54:16

like I'm I'm a workaholic. I'm all

54:19

my mind is always just kind of ignited

54:21

with like what am I building?

54:22

What am I doing?

54:23

And so you know, I've learned to give myself some

54:26

grace and and really just take the time

54:28

out to like find joy

54:30

in doing nothing.

54:31

It's like, it's actually really dope. You know.

54:33

I love when I don't you know, when

54:35

I could sit at home with jogging pants and

54:37

a hoodie on and that's

54:39

it. I don't have to go anywhere. I'm

54:42

so excited. I'm so joyful. So

54:44

I find it in a lot of things.

54:46

Oh, thank you, thank you. As

54:49

we close out this episode, at the end of every

54:51

show, I offer our community what's

54:53

called soul work. So very often that is

54:56

a practice, some

54:58

kind of a devotional mindfulness practice, or

55:00

it's an inquiry of

55:03

thought to kind of savor after

55:05

this episode ends to apply to our

55:07

own lives to think about. So I

55:09

would love to ask if you have any soul

55:11

work you'd like to share.

55:13

Yeah, this is what I would love

55:16

for this community to do. It's just

55:18

take a moment and

55:21

recognize the very moment that you're in, the

55:23

very moment that you're hearing my voice is

55:26

a sacred and divine moment, and

55:30

lean into that with a spirit of gratitude

55:33

that we're fortunate and that

55:35

we are blessed to have the

55:37

sensibilities in the

55:40

physical presence and the spiritual

55:42

presence, and the heart to fill all

55:44

the things, to

55:46

be present with all the things, and

55:49

to really just lean into we're

55:51

only here in the moment that we're actually.

55:53

Here, beautiful.

55:57

Thank you so much everything

56:00

saying. All the ways to connects to Shaka

56:02

his Instagram, his website, and both of his

56:04

books will be in the body of the summary

56:06

of this show. So if you're an Apple, you scroll

56:08

down, Spotify, same thing, click through, you'll

56:11

be able to connect in all the ways. And I

56:13

want to bring to the forefront again. Shaka's latest

56:16

book is Letters to the Sons

56:18

of Society, a father's Invitation to

56:20

Love, honesty and Freedom.

56:23

It's available now, please go get it.

56:25

And his first book, Writing

56:28

My Wrongs, Life, Death, and Redeption

56:30

in an American Prison. Pick

56:34

those up, sit with them, be with

56:37

them, start your meditation practice, everybody.

56:39

I'm always going to say that Shaka,

56:41

thank you so much for joining. And I

56:43

just hope that I have the privilege and the pleasure

56:45

to be in conversation with you again. I

56:47

am so grateful for all

56:50

of the ways that you've shared on the show, for

56:52

everything you have chosen

56:54

to transcend into in your life

56:56

and the way that you share that with all of us

56:59

through your work.

57:00

Thank you, Thank you so much for having

57:02

me truly ya Ahma and

57:04

I mist stay.

57:10

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57:12

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57:15

purposes. It should not be considered

57:17

a replacement for personalized medical

57:20

or mental health guidance, and does

57:22

not constitute a provider patient

57:24

relationship. As always, it is

57:26

advisable to consult with your healthcare

57:29

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57:31

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57:33

that you may have. Connect

57:36

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57:52

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58:01

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