0:01

BBC Sounds, music, radio,

0:03

podcasts. Hello, I'm Lauren

0:05

Laverne and this is the Desert Island Discs

0:08

podcast. Every week I ask my guests to

0:10

choose the eight tracks, book and luxury they'd

0:12

want to take with them if they were

0:14

cast away to a desert island. And

0:17

for rights reasons, the music is shorter

0:19

than the original broadcast. I hope you

0:21

enjoy listening. My

0:43

castaway this week is Marina Abramovic.

0:46

She's one of the most

0:48

revered living artists. During her 50-year

0:50

career, she has moved, scandalised, provoked

0:52

and delighted audiences around the world

0:55

and in the process brought

0:57

performance art into the mainstream. Her

1:00

work is characterised by physical endurance. She

1:02

has drugged herself, walked the Great Wall

1:05

of China and spent days vainly attempting

1:07

to clean blood from a gigantic pile

1:09

of cow bones representing the war in

1:12

the country of her birth, the former

1:14

Yugoslavia. Her work is

1:16

every bit as emotional as it is

1:18

physical and her invitation to us, the

1:21

public, to participate has made her world

1:23

famous. In the beginning, the reaction was

1:25

sometimes violent. In 1974, she

1:28

invited gallery goers to use objects

1:30

on her body to stimulate pleasure or

1:32

pain. She was attacked, left

1:34

scarred and so traumatised her hair

1:36

turned white. Yet 40

1:38

years later, almost a million people attended

1:40

her exhibition at the Museum of Modern

1:43

Art in New York, many queuing for

1:45

hours for a chance to sit opposite

1:47

her in her landmark work The Artist

1:49

is Present. Most recently,

1:51

she has been present in London, dominating

1:53

the city's art scene with a retrospective

1:55

at the Royal Academy, a show at

1:57

the English National Opera and a take-over.

2:00

of the Southbank Centre. She

2:02

says, the entire aim of my

2:04

work is to elevate the human

2:06

spirit. Marina Abramovich, welcome to Desert

2:08

Island Discs. Hello.

2:11

Sorry, I need water

2:13

because my voice is Tom Waits and

2:15

Marlene Dietrich on the bed day. I

2:20

want to start with that idea of uplifting people

2:22

if you don't mind because I think we all

2:24

need it at the moment. Has that always been

2:26

your purpose or are you reacting and responding to

2:28

the times that we live in? You know,

2:30

it's really important, you know, what is my function

2:32

as an artist today? And I always believed that

2:34

the function of an artist is a function of

2:36

a servant. We have to

2:39

really see what's happening around us and

2:41

we have to see what really we

2:43

can give to the society. It's so

2:45

easy to reflect the horror of that

2:47

moment, but it's so important how to

2:49

transcend that horror and actually create beauty

2:52

and harmony and something that actually

2:54

can bring a peace in your heart. And

2:56

to me it's really important lifting the human

2:59

spirit. Marina, you're sharing your

3:01

music with us today and I know that

3:03

music is incredibly important to you. You've described

3:05

it several times as the highest form of

3:07

immaterial art. How did you approach choosing

3:09

the music that you're going to take to your desert

3:12

island? It's a really nomadic choice

3:14

actually. It's all over the place, you know.

3:16

I don't have one kind of style

3:18

that I like. You know, people, you

3:20

know, love just dress and they listen

3:22

to dress just like classic music. I

3:24

mix everything up and it's very much

3:26

to do with my three very clear

3:28

marinas that I accept in myself and

3:31

they're all full of contradictions. There is a

3:33

heroic marina, there is a spiritual one. I

3:35

just want to live in monasteries. I just

3:37

would like to stay with monks forever the

3:39

rest of my life and then we have

3:41

the bullshit one. This is

3:43

the third marina because I think the first two are quite

3:46

present in your work, but the third one might surprise People.

3:48

The third one is a really more private

3:50

one that people know that I'm hilarious. You

3:52

know, I'm so serious in my work, but

3:55

I am so known for really dirty, politically

3:57

not correct jokes. and then the one who

3:59

loves you. cause love to be lazy who

4:01

loves you know, really cheesy music. Slum.

4:04

Or any. Were very pleased to have all

4:06

three marinas present in represented a Your discs

4:08

tell us about your first piece of music,

4:10

what have you chosen and why. Is

4:13

the god of a year since

4:15

they boss and this before but

4:17

either way with swimmers at recess

4:19

had the most is saints joke

4:22

telling each other's so either so

4:24

much fonts and the of the

4:26

skull nexus the thought I told

4:28

him his to sit at the

4:30

piano it off soothe emotionless for

4:32

half. An hour a pianist com me

4:34

very slowly. This was done in army

4:36

very slowly. On the rail towards the

4:39

public and poverty city see some

4:41

is fifty people in the deck

4:43

chairs while at the beaches in

4:45

the kind of semi circle. but

4:47

before that com toda told him

4:49

the open the lock us and

4:51

that have to be talks themselves

4:53

have talked with the thrones, disappointed

4:55

the watches the computer and the

4:57

telephone in close the gets heads

5:00

was the goal incidents that whole

5:02

season. that with has also absolutely

5:04

block any songs and over the

5:06

sea is the. Pianist sitting motionless on

5:08

the piano approach to them to the

5:10

to the circle so when he gets

5:12

to the sense of the hid the

5:15

gongs the sake of the pitfalls of

5:17

and this stuff here in the music

5:19

and the light is going slowly slowly

5:21

down to the ends in the only

5:24

visible is he says slit planes and

5:26

mrs. The

6:31

Aria from Bach's Goldberg Variations played by

6:33

Igor Levitt. Marina, I want to go

6:35

back to the beginning and talk about

6:38

your roots. You're born in Belgrade, Serbia,

6:40

then Yugoslavia, 1946 to Vojin

6:43

and Dnica Abramovich. They were both

6:45

war heroes and members of the

6:48

post-war Yugoslavian communist government and the

6:50

story of their meeting is

6:52

incredibly dramatic. Is it true that they saved

6:55

each other's lives? Yeah, it's true.

6:58

You know, my mother was actually

7:00

commander of the unit of the

7:02

First Front, the Great Cross, they're

7:05

bringing the soldiers out

7:07

of the field into the hospital

7:09

and my father was in kind of guerrilla and

7:12

really doing very courageous

7:15

acts like going into on the white horse

7:17

into a village full of Germans

7:19

and attract their attention and they all run

7:21

after him and he have the brigade behind

7:24

and kill everybody and after one or two

7:26

years, the coming wounded partisans and one

7:28

of these wounded people is my father

7:30

and this was in the war. Nobody

7:32

gave each other transfusion, no blood. She

7:34

discovered they have the same blood group

7:36

and give transfusion and save his life

7:39

and then, you know, they fall madly in love

7:41

and in 1946 they married and I

7:43

was born 1946 and

7:45

then the marriage was hell because

7:47

they came from completely two different

7:49

types of people and they never

7:51

could connect, you know, that leads

7:53

to divorce and lots of trouble

7:56

but this was a really romantic, amazing

7:58

story. So difficult. marriage but an

8:01

incredible meeting even though it

8:03

was communist Yugoslavia that you were growing up

8:05

in the positions that your parents held in

8:07

the party meant that you had quite a

8:10

comparatively wealthy lifestyle at

8:12

the time what was home like? But

8:14

you know first of all if you're communist

8:16

and you've been with the Tito army and

8:19

and be national heroes you're completely privileged

8:21

it's like a Red bourgeoisie he had

8:23

the French lessons I have an English

8:25

lessons I had a ballet teacher of

8:27

the piano teacher we have

8:30

made all the thing what I have

8:32

to do is to get education and

8:34

study this was all what you'll require

8:36

from me it's very spoiled looking from

8:38

outside but at the same time both

8:40

parents never talked to each other it

8:42

was very violent and a very sad

8:44

childhood it was one of the kind of

8:46

the darkest parts of my life. Marina let's

8:48

take a moment to say a second choice.

8:51

The kitchen of my grandmother it was

8:54

a center of my world she

8:56

was deeply religious she hate communism she

8:58

would bring me to the church and

9:00

on the horror of my mother and

9:02

father we're absolutely artists so this constant

9:05

contradiction between these two two

9:08

walls and I remember in

9:10

the morning I was sitting and waiting for

9:12

breakfast that she was making and

9:14

we had the very old Bacalit radio

9:16

which is like always on she always

9:18

listen whatever it is can be whole

9:20

music and the classic music can be bad

9:23

news good news whatever it was on and

9:25

just out of this radio can

9:27

be this incredible voice and I

9:29

remember so strongly and put the

9:31

radio absolutely on maximum stand in

9:33

the middle of the kitchen with

9:36

eyes closed and listen to the

9:38

voice and it was such a

9:40

moving for me something so incredibly

9:42

emotional and the speaker when

9:44

the music was finished this is

9:46

Casta Diva you know from the

9:48

Mariacales Maria

10:46

Callas singing Casta Diva from Norma

10:48

by Bellini with the orchestra of

10:50

La Scala Milan conducted by Tullio

10:53

Serafin. Marina, your mother

10:55

encouraged your love of art, but

10:57

she also exerted enormous control over

10:59

you. You've described your childhood

11:01

as full of spirits and dead people that

11:03

I could see. I like

11:06

shadows, I like invisible beings, I

11:08

like to see the dust coming

11:10

out of the window, you know,

11:12

like the miniature planets from another

11:14

galaxy. I hear this incredible, very,

11:16

very strong imagination. And

11:19

there was this placard, which is like a kind

11:21

of cupboard that you get in, which is one

11:23

of the places that I really believe that the

11:25

spirits live there. I didn't want to

11:27

be at home. I never felt I was

11:30

there welcome. I always felt that some kind

11:32

of strange destiny, strange karma put me into

11:35

that kind of environment to learn the lesson.

11:37

All what I want to go is to

11:39

live. You talked about yourself

11:41

earlier, Marina, about Marina No. 1, who

11:44

you often describe as a warrior. I

11:47

wonder if you consider yourself a survivor

11:49

of your childhood. I never felt happiness

11:51

at home. I never felt at home that

11:53

my mother and father never even talked. It was

11:55

incredible violence to each other. They slept with the

11:57

pistols next to the bed. I

12:00

was thinking that's the way how it was. The

12:03

only much later when I actually see

12:05

the other families, to see how happiness

12:07

can look like, then I really felt

12:09

that I was completely deprived of all

12:11

of that. That must have been a

12:13

shock. Yeah, but at the same time,

12:15

I will not change anything. You

12:17

know, how am I now? It's

12:20

been very hardcore in my upbringing,

12:22

but I learned so much. I

12:24

began so strong now.

12:26

I'm doing this work 55 years and you

12:28

know, I'm 77. You

12:31

know, people go to pension and they stop

12:33

working. I'm not even thinking of stop working.

12:35

I mean, there's so many projects still in

12:37

my mind. I have now completely

12:39

booked the work till 2027. I

12:42

think that's artistry. Just keep going and going. It's

12:45

time to turn to the music, Marina. Your third choice

12:47

today, what's it going to be and why are you

12:49

taking it with you? Now is something

12:51

very special. I was visiting

12:54

Bjork at home. She

12:56

had a little barbecue and there was

12:59

a few musicians that I didn't know

13:01

and she just introduced me to one

13:03

and said, this is Anthony Johnson. And

13:06

there's this big, big guy standing there

13:08

sitting, hardly not talking. So I said

13:10

hello to him. It was all my

13:12

conversation. I went to this concert and

13:14

then came Anthony

13:18

and he stood there and he sing this

13:20

song. I stood

13:22

up literally and just tears

13:24

come through my eyes, uncontrollable.

13:27

This was a voice of Angel. This was a

13:29

voice that I never heard before. Later

13:31

on, you know, I will become friends.

13:34

He sing on my 60th birthday and

13:36

then, you know, he later on, he

13:38

took the transition and he's transgender now

13:40

and the name is Anoni. And

13:43

this music that we're going to hear,

13:45

it's incredible piece. It's come from the

13:47

album Hoppersness and it's called Four

13:49

Degree and we will be just

13:52

this four degree warmer. Our

13:54

planet will stop existing. And

13:56

I think it's incredible song and I would

13:58

like you to hear. Anoni,

14:33

and four degrees. Marina, your mother had

14:35

a high profile job as the director

14:37

of the Museum of Art and Revolution

14:39

in Belgrade. And when you were 14,

14:41

she took you to Venice to the

14:43

Biennale. What sort of impression did your

14:46

first sight of the city make on you? I

14:49

remember 14 years old coming to Venice

14:51

Biennale with the train, which takes a

14:53

long, long time from Belgrade, and coming

14:55

out and crying. She

14:58

said, why are you crying now? She's

15:00

so beautiful. I never saw Venice, the

15:02

gondola and things. It was like coming

15:05

from the very gray, gloomy

15:07

communism into this unbelievable, overwhelming

15:09

beauty. It was like almost

15:12

too much. And then

15:14

going to see Venice Biennale

15:16

and like Rauschenberger, Louisa Neverson.

15:19

I mean, those are the things that I

15:21

never saw exist. And it was like opening

15:23

my eyes to this amazing art. You

15:25

actually asked your parents for oil paints

15:27

and art lessons. I think that was for

15:29

your 14th birthday. What did your first lesson

15:32

consist of, your first formal art lesson? My

15:34

father asked what I want for birthday. And I

15:36

said, I want oil painting because I was, again, 14,

15:39

oil painting was like, wow, then you

15:41

come really artist because everything was done

15:43

with watercolors and crayons, you know. So

15:46

he doesn't know nothing about art. He's

15:48

really old, revolutionary guy. But he had

15:50

one of the soldiers of him who

15:52

became an officer, painter, and went to

15:54

Paris to study. So he was just

15:56

visiting Belgrade and he called him, said,

15:59

help me. for the daughter to buy

16:01

the oil painting and give her at least one

16:03

lesson. So we go to the

16:05

shop, we got tons of stuff, he

16:07

bring me to tiny little room, this was my

16:09

studio, and I remember so

16:11

well he cut the canvas but doesn't

16:13

put on the frame, just a kind

16:15

of free canvas on the floor and

16:17

irregular. Then he throw the some

16:20

glue on the canvas, little

16:22

bit of yellow color, little bit of red,

16:24

a touch of blue, and then he put

16:26

the gasoline over the whole thing and he

16:28

put the match and just throw on

16:31

the canvas and everything explode and he looked at

16:33

me and said this is sunset and he left.

16:36

This is the first painting lesson on

16:38

my life. I mean for

16:40

kids this is impressive. It was really just

16:42

this whole idea that the whole art could

16:44

be so many different things and the approach

16:46

have to be different. So it was important

16:49

lesson. We've got to make some room for

16:51

the music. Give us your fourth disc if you would, what's

16:53

next? Paloma Negra, Travel of

16:55

Argus, I love, she's

16:58

Mexican, she was early

17:00

lesbian, she was so powerful,

17:03

unbelievable singer but also

17:05

enormously drinking tequila, you

17:08

know, and kind of behaving like a

17:10

warrior. But there's something about the music

17:12

that I like so much. It's

17:15

the music so full of passion,

17:17

so full of the

17:19

sadness and melancholy and especially

17:21

this song, the Paloma Negra,

17:23

this is the moment when

17:25

she cracked her voice and

17:28

this is something that I can't

17:30

even explain. I really have a

17:32

physical reaction on her voice. Paloma

17:49

Negra, Paloma

17:51

Negra, Paloma

18:03

Nigra by Chavela Vargas.

18:06

Marina Abramovich, in 1974,

18:08

you performed one of

18:10

your most famous and most notorious

18:12

works. You placed 72 objects, including

18:15

a loaded pistol, numerous sharp tools, a

18:17

rose, a book, and a whip on

18:20

a table, and you invited the public

18:22

to do whatever they liked to you

18:24

for six hours. What were

18:26

you expecting to happen, and what actually

18:28

happened that day? I didn't

18:30

expect anything. I was just angry. I was

18:32

so angry at the time. The

18:34

performance was so trashed. You know, there was

18:37

horrible criticism. There was never even considered an

18:39

art form and so on. So the public

18:41

in the beginning, they come and they play

18:43

with me. They will give me the rose.

18:46

They will give me the kiss. Then they

18:48

start getting more and more violent at the

18:50

time, because time is a very important factor,

18:52

because time goes on and on. And

18:55

then they cut my t-shirt. Then

18:57

they take roses, the pin of

18:59

the roses that stuck into my body.

19:01

Then they cut under my neck. Then they

19:04

start drinking the blood. I think only I'm

19:06

not raped, because it was a normal art

19:08

opening, and people came with their wives. I

19:10

was just like, nobody is expecting any of

19:12

this. And then there was also

19:14

a pistol, a bullet in the pistol, put it

19:17

into my hand, and the person will squeeze in

19:19

my hand. And then another person came

19:21

to take the pistol, throw it in the window. It was

19:23

all this hustle and lots of things happening.

19:25

I said, the galleries of 6,000 finished.

19:28

Come and tell me, because whatever you

19:30

do with me, I had no reaction.

19:33

The woman would tell men what to do. They

19:35

never touched me. They would take tears out of

19:38

my eyes. It was very interesting. It was two

19:40

in the morning when he come

19:42

to me and said, 6,000 hours is

19:44

over. And for the first time, I

19:46

started getting me as me, and I

19:49

started walking to the public, and

19:51

literally everybody ran away. And I

19:53

came to the hotel, and I looked myself in the

19:55

mirror, and I had a piece of gray hair. And

19:58

that I knew publicly. Do

20:00

you reflect on the extremes that you were pushing yourself

20:02

and your body? No, I know. It's

20:05

done. It's done. I learned

20:07

the lesson. I have to move on. This is

20:09

something that I hate, these kind of questions, because

20:11

I can't deal with the sentimentality of it. To

20:14

me, it's so important. Learn

20:16

the lesson, move on. Learn the lesson, move

20:18

on. Now I'm 77. This

20:21

exhibition is the ending of a big

20:23

period of my life. I am completely

20:25

now for the new work, new perspectives,

20:27

new ideas. All

20:29

right, Marina. Well, I want to find out what came

20:32

next, but first let's have some more music, your fifth

20:34

choice today. Okay, let's go to the music. Now, let's

20:37

go to Tina Turner. I

20:39

love Tina Turner. I love how she changed

20:42

her life, how she can get out of this

20:45

torture relationship and create new

20:47

self. And I like this animal

20:49

part of her. I like her as a dancer. I

20:52

like her as a performer,

20:54

as incredible charismatic, full of life.

20:57

And I just, every time anybody asks me, what are

20:59

you going to sing in

21:01

karaoke setting, in Korean restaurant, I

21:03

always go for private dance. Let's

21:07

listen. And your karaoke repertoire, is it

21:09

just the one song or are you a karaoke dancer?

21:11

No, no, no, just private dance. I'm terrible.

21:13

And my voice is impossible. And

21:16

I love that song. You keep your mind on my body.

21:20

Keep your eyes on my

21:22

wall. And you'll cry to

21:24

dancer, or dance up on my body.

21:27

You are beautiful. And

21:30

you'll cry to dancer,

21:32

or dance up on my body. You

21:36

are beautiful. And you'll cry

21:38

to dancer, or dance up on

21:40

my body. Tina

21:46

Turner and private dancer Marina Abramovich, your karaoke

21:48

song. I'm so terrible in karaoke, but what

21:50

I can help. Marina,

21:53

I want to ask you about the very important chapter in

21:55

your creative life. the

22:00

work you did with your former partner,

22:02

the German artist Uli. You created and

22:05

performed some bold works together. Rest Energy,

22:07

for example, included you holding a bow,

22:09

Uli holding the arrow, which was pointing

22:12

directly at your heart, and then you

22:14

both lean back until the bow string

22:16

is taught. One false move

22:18

and you would have been dead. You

22:21

described yourself back then as one

22:23

creative entity, the self. It

22:25

must have felt so powerful to be part of that. Only

22:28

I can say about this piece, this is based on

22:30

trust. And each of us

22:32

had a little microphone on the heart

22:34

and you can see how other non-inrushing

22:36

and the heart is beating crazy. And

22:38

it was really the shortest piece we

22:40

ever made in our life. It's four

22:42

minutes and 20 seconds and for me

22:45

it was like

22:47

forever. It's

22:50

still my heart was in my mouth watching it.

22:52

The Royal Academy is part of the show where

22:54

the video is there. Intense, I don't know.

22:56

Even for me, I don't want to

22:58

really talk about parts to be sentimental,

23:00

but this piece always gets me. The

23:04

two of you created a manifesto for life

23:06

and art in 1977. You

23:08

presented your values and they include

23:10

having no fixed living place and

23:12

a commitment to permanent movement. So

23:14

it was a very nomadic period

23:17

in your life. You were living on

23:19

a bus with your dog, very few

23:21

possessions, traveling all the time. Incredibly

23:23

happy moment. What did you learn then? You

23:25

loved it. It was incredible. It was

23:27

no compromise of any kind. We

23:30

hardly have any money to live

23:32

on. We had nothing. We went

23:34

to different places in

23:36

the mountains. I remember in Sardinia, we

23:38

went to this little place called Gozawa

23:41

and the shepherds would give us a

23:43

job to milk the sheep in the morning.

23:46

We are talking 120 sheep, 5.30 to 6.00,

23:48

7.00 in the morning. And

23:50

then we will make the Corino cheese with them.

23:53

I was walking in the

23:55

wooden shoes and woolen socks, which I knit

23:57

because we didn't have nothing. I will never change that.

24:00

that it was so important to me to

24:02

be radical to do what I love with

24:04

the man I love. We didn't have

24:06

nothing but that nothing was beginning of

24:08

everything. You felt free. Yeah, free.

24:11

It's time for disc number six, Marina. In

24:14

the 1970s, end of 70s,

24:16

Ula and me went first time to India together

24:19

and the first time we went, we went to

24:21

Bodh Gaya which is the place where they actually

24:23

would have got enlightenment and the city on the

24:25

body tree. So we spent lots

24:28

of time with the Tibetan community and

24:30

also we met his Holiness Dalai

24:32

Lama. We met his teacher Ling Rinpoche

24:35

who really was incredibly important for me

24:37

to understand, you know, about the meaning

24:39

of Buddhism as a philosophy and you

24:42

know Tibetan chanting or Khart Sutra is

24:44

something that I really

24:46

love and this is something I choose. The

25:19

Khart Sutra chants by the Tatilung

25:21

Po monks. Marina, in

25:24

1997, you were awarded the

25:26

Golden Lion at the Venice Biennale for

25:28

a work called Balkan Baroque which was

25:30

a response to the war in the

25:32

former Yugoslavia. You spent, as part of

25:34

that piece, four days scrubbing a huge

25:36

pile of bloodied cow bones. The cleaner

25:39

they became, the more covered in blood

25:41

you were. Talk me through creating

25:43

that piece. It must have been emotionally very

25:45

close to home. To make the

25:47

work that I done for my own

25:50

country took me three years. You

25:52

know, every artist is responding so easily but

25:54

to me it was so close. I was

25:56

so ashamed of the war. I could not

25:58

do it like that. know, on the

26:00

request. It took me a very,

26:03

very long time to, you know, approach from

26:05

the right angle. I have this huge pile

26:07

of cow bones. And, you

26:09

know, we are talking Venice Biennale.

26:11

We are talking 30-degree Celsius, incredibly

26:14

hot in the summer, in the basement.

26:16

Smell was unbearable. Warms was

26:18

coming out of the box. And, you

26:21

know, while we were doing so, the

26:23

smell was a very important element. And

26:25

also that you never can wash the

26:27

blood from your hands, one was done.

26:30

And I was thinking, I need to

26:32

create something that is just a dental,

26:34

something that can be any war,

26:36

any time, anywhere. And right

26:38

now I'm showing this piece in the Royal

26:40

Academy. And I have incredible

26:43

reaction. People from Palestine, from

26:45

Ukraine, from Israel, they come and they

26:47

stay in that room the longest, because

26:50

I'm talking to all the wars

26:52

everywhere. And that's really important. You

26:54

have to create something that actually

26:56

deals with much larger perspective than

26:58

just your own. It was incredibly

27:02

brutal to smell and to do what

27:04

I've been doing. It's so bloody

27:06

hard. I became vegetarian. After

27:08

that, I could not wash

27:10

the smell anymore. You have talked about works

27:12

that have changed you, Marina. I mean, you

27:14

know, I'm wondering about your sense of identity

27:17

when I'm talking about Balkan Baroque. But there

27:19

was another piece that you said changed you

27:21

completely. The artist is present 2010.

27:23

It was in New York

27:25

City, you sat in complete silence, while more

27:27

than 1500 people queued to

27:29

sit opposite you, they couldn't speak to you, they

27:32

couldn't touch you, but they could share your gaze

27:34

and they could stay in front of you for

27:36

as long as they liked. So

27:38

members of the public as well as

27:40

artists like Bjork and your former partner,

27:42

Uli, all took part. There

27:45

is a simplicity to it.

27:47

It must have been as difficult

27:49

as it appears to be simple, this

27:51

piece. People found it incredibly

27:53

moving. And I know that you did too.

27:56

What was the thinking behind it? So

27:58

first of all, In

28:01

many of your questions, you always

28:03

want me to admit my change,

28:05

and I'm always trying to avoid

28:07

and to kind of reject. But

28:10

now I have to give up. So, first

28:12

of all, what's happened is

28:15

every piece brings the change.

28:18

From the beginning, from my first performance,

28:20

you know, rhythm 10, every

28:23

single piece, you know, I learn something,

28:25

and that's what I learned, bring me

28:27

to the next world, next world,

28:29

next world. So it's a really process, and

28:31

then the world becomes more demanding, more

28:34

difficult, more demanding, difficult, difficult, difficult. The

28:36

Balkan Baroque, of course, the change, but

28:38

I think that really the most difficult

28:41

piece that I ever made in my life, it

28:43

was art, this is present, because

28:45

it was the most painful, the most

28:47

difficult, and every day could be the

28:49

last. All skin was in

28:52

pain. My back was hurting, my legs were

28:54

swollen. You know, it's not natural to be

28:56

emotional in that way. I have to train

28:58

for this piece the entire year, you know,

29:00

like astronaut. I have to change my metabolism

29:03

that I eat in the night only and

29:05

sleep and drink enough water so that during

29:07

the day I don't have any of this

29:10

necessity. It was one year training, you

29:12

know, and what happened there is

29:15

that I experienced

29:18

unconditional love. I

29:20

develop unconditional love for every human being

29:22

sitting in front of me, old, young,

29:26

sick, healthy, child,

29:29

whoever. And this was opening

29:31

of the heart, which is really

29:34

painful. It's like your heart opened

29:36

for the universe. And

29:38

I absolutely understand that

29:41

something does to me, that when

29:43

I stand up from the chair, I'm

29:45

different, and I was a different person. Marina

29:48

Abramovic, it's time for your next piece

29:50

of music. I was 17 years

29:52

old when I got this music

29:54

to listen for my 70th birthday, and

29:57

this was Percerto 21. C

30:00

major in Mozart. And

30:02

we have now to listen here

30:04

the most beautiful version of Misuko

30:06

Chida, which I listened to live

30:08

in Europe many times. But

30:11

now why that music? This

30:13

was the time I remember

30:15

I was born. 30th November

30:17

is snowing in Belgrade. Everything

30:20

is white outside and very

30:22

quiet. And I'm sitting in my room and

30:24

I'm listening to this music. And

30:27

I just realized for the

30:30

first time ever that actually

30:33

I'm going to die. I'm mortal.

30:36

I'm 70 years old and the

30:38

first idea that actually, oh my

30:40

God, everybody's going to die. Every

30:43

day you're actually closer to your

30:45

dad wherever it comes. And that

30:47

realization was incredible strong and was

30:50

related to this music. And

32:00

orchestra conducted by Jeffrey Tate.

32:03

Marina, just a few months ago you

32:05

had a brush with death, you had

32:07

a pulmonary embolism and had to spend

32:09

six weeks in intensive care. How are

32:12

you now? Great. You look fantastic. You're

32:14

dominating the London Arts scene. I mean it's

32:17

a extraordinary recovery. I still have pain

32:19

in my leg because I didn't have

32:21

enough physical therapy time to recover. But

32:23

it doesn't matter, you know, I don't

32:26

care. I'm really happy. I take a

32:28

shower and sing and never sing in

32:30

the shower before. There's something like a

32:32

literalisation that is not my time yet.

32:36

All this new energy is given to me.

32:38

Marina, I'm about to cast you away to

32:40

your desert island. For someone who is a

32:43

performance artist, how does the

32:45

idea of solitude appeal? Oh,

32:47

I love solitude. I spend

32:49

three months in the forest, in

32:51

a cell, just

32:53

repeating mantra. And

32:55

I finish mantra after three months

32:57

repeating one million, one

33:00

hundred thousand one time. And

33:02

I only had one meal which monastery

33:04

bring me up in the mountain. I

33:07

didn't see nobody. And then

33:09

the meal is only eaten before me 12

33:12

o'clock and then put the dish

33:14

outside. And after three months when I

33:16

finished this one million whatever, mantras

33:19

I sent message to monastery and they

33:21

bring me down and I have

33:23

to burn all my possessions and

33:26

then I was ready to go. And so

33:30

solitude is something I love. I don't

33:33

love loneliness is one thing.

33:35

With loneliness you suffer. The

33:37

solitude for an artist is

33:40

absolutely necessity. Well, I think

33:42

the island might inspire you then. Before

33:44

we send you there, Marina Abramovich, one

33:46

more music choice. Oh my God, I

33:48

forgot about the trashy, the

33:50

bullshit Marina. Now we get

33:53

in the real deal. Okay,

33:55

so Jack Smith is

33:57

a very interesting artist, not many people.

34:00

know about him but he was he comes

34:02

from the 60s and 70s you know and

34:04

I travel with him for a while, Ula

34:06

and me, and he will

34:09

always play the Andrew Sisters and I

34:11

got completely addicted to this music and

34:13

I love it it's so trashy. Now

34:15

we're going to listen. Ram

34:18

and Coca-Cola by

34:20

the Andrew Sisters. The

34:30

Andrew Sisters, Ram and Coca-Cola.

34:32

So Marina Abramovich, I'm going to

34:34

send you away

34:59

to the island. I'm giving you the Bible and

35:02

the complete works of Shakespeare. You can also

35:04

take one other book. What will that be? I

35:06

would like a Spensky search

35:08

for Miraculous. You know

35:10

I really love Gorgiev. He

35:12

was such an interesting character who was

35:15

a teacher also in some kind of

35:17

shaman in the same time and

35:19

he wrote these books about Bezebub which

35:21

is so difficult to read but

35:23

Spensky find a way how to translate

35:26

his teachings for the people who understand

35:28

in much kind of simple way. So

35:30

this is esoteric philosophy. Is that right?

35:32

Is that right? Yeah. Spensky was his

35:34

student and he actually created

35:37

search for Miraculous to explain

35:39

the Gorgiev to decode him because

35:41

it was very complicated to understand.

35:44

Good for spiritual Marina as well and

35:46

so you've got the book you will

35:48

also have a luxury item Marina. I

35:51

know the island could be warm but I

35:53

don't care because the one thing that I'm

35:55

living in is blanket is The

35:59

Kashmir. Made is a triple for

36:01

timely discussed and will fix and this

36:03

who is a blanket. Is great

36:06

for the winter. it's for the

36:08

idol planes. Were either sleeping on it's

36:10

make it turns out of a this

36:12

multi proposals and I love this is

36:14

something also with me. A cast

36:16

me a blanket Israel's and finally which

36:18

track of the eight that you've shared

36:20

with us today which is safe and

36:22

the Leafs fast. I will turn to

36:24

save the seabed. Simpsons in. My.

36:27

You know because this is only one

36:30

who really work on and deserted level

36:32

when you listen to this is not

36:34

sister is not the music is vibration

36:36

and is for braces. Really work when

36:39

you malek was system and could put

36:41

you in the says the states of

36:43

mine's the children music fans. Marina.

36:46

Abramovich. thank you very much for letting

36:48

series or Desert Island Discs. says.

36:54

I love the Saudi this time

36:56

and is something that can always

36:58

work because on the emphasis. On.

37:00

The day when the this is

37:02

violence with needs even if is

37:04

not real we need to have

37:07

in our minds someone's as a

37:09

silence decision gone. And.

37:11

Rest. Hello

37:23

episode. Lovely to chat to, marine and

37:26

and I hope she says happy on

37:28

her island with a blanket and join

37:30

the solitude and coming up with her

37:32

next idea. There are more than two

37:34

thousand programs in Iraq Caves. It's kinda

37:36

since he was cast many artists wales

37:38

the years including David Hockney, Sunny Police

37:40

and Peter Delete. You can find all

37:42

of those programs if you search through

37:45

Btc things or on our own Desert

37:47

Island Discs website. The studio manager for

37:49

today's program was Jackie Margarine and effigy

37:51

set for Savage data. Join me next.

37:53

time when my castaways is a

37:55

dancer and head judge on bbc

37:58

strictly come dancing senators Pause

38:10

while

38:14

our listeners

38:16

stay tuned at

38:19

our live crossings?!

38:29

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