0:01

BBC Sounds, music, radio,

0:03

podcasts. Hello, I'm Lauren

0:05

Laverne and this is the Desert Island Discs

0:08

podcast. Every week I ask my guests to

0:10

choose the eight tracks, book and luxury they'd

0:12

want to take with them if they were

0:14

cast away to a desert island. And

0:17

for rights reasons, the music is shorter

0:19

than the original broadcast. I hope you

0:21

enjoy listening. My

0:45

castaway this week is the honourable

0:47

Lady Rae, Rita Rae. She's one

0:49

of Scotland's most eminent judges. Her

0:51

legal career has spanned five decades

0:53

and brought some of Scotland's most

0:55

notorious criminals to justice. She

0:58

was born in Glasgow and from a young

1:00

age she was determined to follow in the

1:02

footsteps of her Italian grandfather, a

1:05

lawyer who had taken a stand against

1:07

the country's fascist regime and risked his

1:09

life in the pursuit of justice. She

1:12

qualified as a solicitor in 1974.

1:14

She was 24 and

1:16

was told by her new boss that

1:18

women were emotionally unsuitable for court work.

1:21

She set about proving him wrong. She was called to

1:23

the bar in 1982, one of just 13 female advocates

1:25

in Scotland at the time.

1:29

After five years working on some of

1:31

the country's most infamous criminal cases, she

1:34

became a judge and quickly earned a

1:36

reputation for executing her duties without mincing

1:38

her words. In 2021,

1:40

she was elected the first female

1:43

working rector in the University of

1:45

Glasgow's 570-year history. at

2:00

Island Discs. Thank you. So

2:02

Rita you describe the law as your passion,

2:05

I wonder what it was about the law

2:07

itself that ignited that when you were young.

2:10

It was always about the justice of everything and

2:13

I must have been very annoying when I was very

2:15

young because I would argue back if

2:18

I thought that something wasn't fair and go

2:21

to a reputation from my

2:23

parents of being the last word. That

2:25

was your nickname when you were growing up? Yeah

2:27

I must have annoyed my parents terribly but I

2:30

think essentially it was hearing the stories of

2:33

my grandfather that gave me that ambition.

2:36

And we'll hear much more about him

2:38

in a moment Rita but when talking

2:40

about the criminals that you've sentenced you've

2:42

always been extremely careful with the words

2:44

you use. You would never

2:46

for example describe someone as evil? I

2:48

would never use that term when talking

2:50

about the accused. I

2:52

would use that

2:54

term when talking about the crime but

2:57

I've always tried to attach the adjective

3:00

to the crime and not

3:02

to the individual. And what's the purpose of that?

3:04

Because I've got a human being

3:07

in front of me and some people might not

3:09

think that because of the awful

3:12

crime but I'm not there to judge them

3:14

as an individual. I'm there to deal with

3:17

the crime that they have committed and

3:19

therefore I do not call people names so

3:22

to speak. It's time for your

3:24

first piece of music Rita. What have you chosen?

3:26

Rachmanoff's piano concerto. Why have

3:28

you chosen it? Because I've always wanted

3:30

to learn the piano. I've got a

3:32

beautiful piano and I haven't had the

3:35

persistence in learning. I used

3:37

to get lessons when I was very young

3:39

but I was one of these

3:41

children who always wanted to be out in

3:43

the country outside and unfortunately

3:45

I and my brother used

3:47

to hide from the piano teacher who

3:50

then told on us but

3:53

I just love the piano. I

3:55

love piano music and I really need to get down

3:57

to trying to learn it. All right

3:59

that's it. Byron and Rachmaninoff Piano

4:01

Concerto Them Bitchy. Part

4:54

of the third movement some Brockman

4:56

and asked. Second Piano Concerto with

4:58

Vladimir Ashkenazy and the London Symphony

5:00

Orchestra conducted by Andre. Private Reserve

5:02

Way you'll maternal grandfather Carlo is

5:04

the person who inspired you to

5:06

become a lawyer. Tell us about

5:08

him. How did he set the

5:10

example for this will? I never

5:12

met him and it was. Really

5:15

only listening to. Stories

5:17

about him through my grandmother

5:19

and my mother. He

5:22

was a well known

5:24

outspoken antifascist. He was from Naples.

5:26

He was from. Naples. He he was

5:28

a highly respected lawyer and he

5:31

wouldn't keep quiet. Met my mother.

5:33

Remembered my grandmother saying to him

5:35

when he was going out don't

5:38

speak. And this was

5:40

because she was worried that if he

5:42

spoke out he would be arrested. Somewhere

5:44

I can gather he he was

5:46

wholly against Mussolini. He would not compromise

5:49

his principles. But then he died

5:51

just before. More Broker it nineteen thirty

5:53

seven and I remember finding his the Or

5:55

or my mother showed it to me is

5:57

Dick is law degree and my Graham be.

6:00

was to have his law degree sitting

6:02

next to mine. Does it? It

6:04

does. And do you know anything about

6:06

the kind of cases that he took on as a

6:08

lawyer? It was mostly civil work, but one of the

6:10

things he used to do, because he wasn't a very

6:13

rich lawyer, he would read a set of

6:15

papers, he would think there's

6:17

no case, so he would

6:19

return them and when they said what's your fee, he would say,

6:21

no I haven't done anything. So

6:23

it wasn't all about money, it was about doing

6:26

the right thing. So tell me about

6:28

your grandmother and her having to deal

6:31

with your grandfather's refusal to compromise. She

6:33

sounds like quite a strong character in her

6:35

own life. Yes, she certainly

6:38

was, because my mother, after

6:40

she'd married and came to this country, went

6:42

back six months later and brought my grandmother

6:44

over and she never really learned

6:46

English. So that's why we

6:48

were brought up bilingual, but she was strong.

6:52

She never lamented in any way, not that

6:54

I'm aware of. It was

6:56

that generation, they just got on

6:58

with things, they didn't complain. I

7:00

think that enhanced my admiration of

7:02

them. It's time to

7:05

hear some more music, Reeseray. Your second choice, if

7:07

you would, what is it going

7:09

to be? They did La Taviata and then

7:11

it was difficult to choose a piece in

7:13

that, because that is my

7:15

first love of opera. I

7:18

was eight and my mother, who

7:20

used to go to the opera with my father,

7:23

she bought an LP of

7:26

Traiata. And

7:28

I remember playing this and

7:30

listening to it and

7:33

reading the story about it and at

7:36

that age in tears. It's

7:38

absolutely beautiful. A

8:49

dite alla Giovini from Verdi's

8:52

La Traviata with Angela Giorgio

8:54

and Leo Nucci conducted by

8:56

George Schottie. So

8:59

tell me a little bit more about your parents story

9:01

then Rita, your father Sandy met

9:03

your mother Bianca in Italy just after the

9:05

war I think 1946? It was 1946 yes.

9:08

What led to their meeting? Mum had

9:11

finally found a job, they were

9:13

bombed several times in

9:15

Naples and eventually had to

9:17

move out to a place called Nola which

9:19

is just outside Naples and

9:21

she was working in a kind of

9:24

secretarial role in charge of a team

9:26

of women who were working in what

9:28

was a munitions factory and

9:31

my father was a bomb disposal

9:33

expert who remained in Italy after the

9:35

war. My father was in

9:38

a pristine suit walking through this

9:40

factory and there was a girl

9:43

and she was carrying a box

9:45

of munitions and one of

9:47

the supervisors had seen, female supervisor had

9:49

seen my father walking

9:52

through and this girl walking obviously

9:54

going to bump into him because it was an outer

9:56

space that they had to pass through. So

9:59

she Did the go?

10:01

To stop and of course the words

10:03

and Italian for stop I think she

10:05

said pasta pasta to try and stop

10:08

her and of course my father said

10:10

being the Scotsman immediately saw some swearing

10:12

at him as my friend is difficult

10:14

to believe of at my father upon

10:17

he got really angry and wanted her

10:19

it sought to that she was calling

10:21

him. Names in. The next

10:23

thing that happened was that did

10:25

an officer was brought in and

10:27

and mom who was in charge

10:29

of all of this and when

10:31

the officer who could speak italian

10:33

spoke to er think. Mom and

10:35

everything was explained to worth and the

10:38

all started to laugh Keeps. His a

10:40

lovely for and he was very unbiased.

10:42

Heat went and bought some flowers he

10:44

obviously cloaks my mom with we would

10:46

see and his brother slurs and been

10:48

on the got a not the girls

10:50

who is new and that that's heard

10:52

him it so he took a shine

10:54

to immediately and and and of is

10:56

he was mutual because he got married

10:58

six months later they did but ninety

11:00

of them school teacher this language new.

11:03

To hide it it communicates with

11:05

think she started to learn English

11:07

as and his dad never really

11:09

learned properly Tallinn He understood a

11:12

lot but he didn't lend I

11:14

tell his in with Mom and

11:16

English heritage your father's cited some

11:18

they take to the new design

11:20

funded they did not accept Mom

11:22

at all. He was the enemy

11:24

and I suppose you can understand

11:27

that. Nineteen Forty Six. She.

11:29

Was ruined conflict. And my

11:31

father was not catholic. When died

11:34

When homes tell his father that the

11:36

first grandchild. Was about

11:38

to be born. Says your brother

11:40

Yeah, My grandfather's response was what

11:42

you're prone to bring another cat.

11:44

Listen to the world. So.

11:47

How did your mother deal with that recession?

11:49

will lose know a lot she to do

11:51

but what she did do was to insist

11:53

that my father maintains. His connection.

11:56

With. His family. And

11:59

what about late? The when life was

12:01

there ever have a moment of

12:03

reconciliation? The wasn't really a reconciliation.

12:05

But when. His sister

12:07

was dying. And in hospital my

12:09

mother went to see her. And.

12:13

That. Sister Tundra and said that she was

12:15

so sorry for what they done to her.

12:19

So you were born in Glasgow and

12:21

fifty but group and planes just outside

12:23

address. The east of the city is

12:25

not as it grown up. An awful

12:27

to find. That though it was observed it

12:30

was mining village. And we will never really

12:32

acceptance we were we were foreigners there is

12:34

so to speak and and the conditions that

12:36

we lived in were no great things have

12:38

changed it's I was very shy of is

12:41

a overweight so it was clear and me

12:43

up when. Yeah, it did. You

12:45

take comfort from your relationships with

12:47

your family. Kiss. Me

12:49

to. It's time for your said piece of music

12:52

today as number three. What have you got for

12:54

us and why The chosen at this is a

12:56

piece of music which I had again when I

12:58

was a young. And phone difficult to

13:00

listen to or without it being

13:02

in tears as was my mom

13:05

is called Mama by Benjamin Eugenie.

13:07

It's a beautiful song. It's basically

13:09

written as a time thinking for

13:12

to the war was alone of

13:14

a soldier and see that his

13:16

mother. Says

13:51

only by Been you know it is

13:53

usually with the studio Orchestra conducted by

13:55

Dino. On of yeah me. reiterate

13:58

what is your father dave as to the when

14:00

he came back to Scotland? Well, when he

14:02

came back to Scotland, obviously he was married

14:04

and had to work. I

14:07

think it was then that he trained as a butcher. He

14:10

then moved on to doing a van driver,

14:12

working van driver, then had a small cafe,

14:15

and that's when my mother had an accident,

14:17

so that went pear-shaped. But

14:19

I think he would have loved to have gone into further

14:21

education, but when he came

14:23

back, he was married and then he had two

14:25

of her family, so they came first. So you

14:28

mentioned your mother's accident. She was involved in a

14:30

terrible car accident. You were 13 at

14:32

the time. What actually happened? Well, Mum,

14:35

in the evening, I think it was a Saturday

14:37

evening, would go and collect my dad late at

14:39

night after he'd finished work, and

14:41

often she would take my brother, and he

14:43

would have been in the passenger seat. But listen,

14:45

I don't know what he'd done. He probably

14:47

said something that he shouldn't have done, and

14:50

Mum told me he wasn't coming, so she

14:52

went into Glasgow. And just

14:55

in a place called Burgetti, a car

14:58

overtook another car on the other

15:00

side, oncoming traffic, collided

15:03

with a motorcyclist, killing

15:06

his brilliant passenger, and

15:09

then Mum's car stopped his

15:11

head-on collision, striking Mum's car,

15:14

and the engine, I understand,

15:16

ended up in the passenger seat. So

15:20

if Charlie had been there, he wouldn't have lived. She

15:22

wasn't meant to survive her... No. What were her injuries?

15:25

There were so many. I

15:27

mean, she had heart failure, 14 broken ribs,

15:29

punctured lungs, two broken legs,

15:31

fractured skull. She was

15:33

in intensive care for six weeks or something of that

15:35

sort. And that's when... I mean,

15:37

she told us after she heard someone saying,

15:39

a nurse saying, there's no point

15:42

with this one. She's not going to survive.

15:45

Don't challenge my mum. So

15:49

this is 1973, so she's in

15:51

hospital for... in intensive care for an

15:53

extended period. Were you able to see

15:55

her? Did you know what her condition

15:57

was? No. No. We were told very,

15:59

very... little. Eventually when she

16:01

came home, I mean I

16:04

changed because from selfish 13

16:07

year old you then have to take

16:10

on a role and try to help. It made

16:12

me grow up. Did

16:14

you ever find out what happened to the driver? I

16:17

think he was fine. I think

16:19

Raquel was driving. And

16:22

some good in a strange way did come

16:24

out of that dreadful time. Your mother actually

16:26

got back in contact with her family in

16:28

Italy. She eventually got a small piece of

16:30

compensation, not much but it allowed us to

16:32

buy a car and

16:35

to allow us to visit Italy for the first

16:37

time. But she lost contact with all

16:39

her family and the only

16:41

way she would think of getting in touch

16:43

because she'd lost the addresses was

16:45

to write a letter to a

16:47

famous fashion designer in Rome who

16:50

had married my mum's cousin. He had

16:52

a boutique near the Spanish steps and

16:54

she wrote a letter to Emilio Schubert

16:56

Rome and he got it. So

16:59

what was it like going there with

17:01

her and your first time in the

17:04

country? Not having had a family before,

17:06

you were literally enveloped. Suddenly there's everybody's

17:08

coming and hugging you and all the rest of it

17:10

and it was just shock

17:12

I think is the only way I could

17:14

describe it. So I'm picturing you in an

17:17

Italian kitchen with a huge extended family? Sort

17:20

of, yeah. I'd see

17:22

elderly aunts and they had a, she

17:25

wasn't a maid, she was more one of the family and

17:27

I spent all the time in the kitchen with fellow men

17:29

I learning all sorts of things. It's

17:31

time for some more music, Rita Ray, your fourth choice

17:33

today. What are we going to hear next? You

17:36

know the Neapolitans are so full of

17:38

life and music is such an important

17:40

part both from the classical point of

17:42

view but also from the

17:45

Neapolitan. I feel

17:47

as if I'm not just half Italian but half

17:50

Neapolitan as well. So I had to

17:52

be a piece from one of

17:54

the very popular singers in Naples,

17:56

Massimo Ranieri. This was

17:58

one of the ones that I really like

18:00

is Arunjwa Monamur. Arunjwa

18:31

Monamur, Massimo Ranieri,

18:33

arranged and conducted by

18:36

Enrico Polito. Rita Ray,

18:38

you graduated from Edinburgh University with a law

18:40

degree in 1972 and you were apprenticed

18:43

to a law firm in Glasgow.

18:46

What was the ratio of men to women

18:48

at the time in the firm? I can't

18:50

give an exact ratio but I think there

18:53

was a legal assistant who was female. I

18:55

don't think there was any other, there

18:58

might be one other female apprentice. You

19:00

later joined the criminal law firm Ross

19:02

Harper and Mercy. How did your clients

19:04

react to being represented by a woman?

19:06

Once they knew you knew what you

19:08

were talking about, they were fine. It

19:11

was the fellow

19:13

solicitors who were worse. When

19:16

I became an advocate I knew that there

19:18

were solicitors that would not instruct me because

19:20

I was female unless it was a

19:22

rape case. Was

19:24

it frustrating? You

19:27

could use that word. The

19:30

look on your face is the look

19:32

of someone who repressed a lot of frustration at the

19:34

time. You became

19:37

a partner at an incredibly young

19:39

age, just 27. Did that help

19:41

your standing with your peers among

19:43

those lawyers who thought of

19:45

you differently because of your gender? To

19:47

some extent, yes. To some extent when you

19:49

could prove that you knew what you

19:51

were doing but it didn't

19:53

necessarily carry on to the

19:55

bar. There were many lawyers who would not

19:58

instruct female advocates. just

20:00

judged by your gender back then the

20:02

reader religious tensions also divided people and

20:04

that actually played out in the workplace

20:07

as well. Yes, I won't use the

20:09

word that this lawyer used but I

20:11

remember they were making anti-Catholic jokes it

20:13

was at a dinner and

20:16

I interrupted and said look

20:19

I'm a Catholic and

20:21

I said but my Catholicism comes from my

20:23

Italian mother my father was non-Catholic and

20:25

one of them said oh well you're

20:27

not a Fenian and then there was

20:30

another expletive used so

20:32

that was okay at which point I was

20:34

with another couple of solicitors of my age

20:36

and one of them grabbed hold of me

20:38

by the shoulders and said right the retail lights moved

20:40

because they knew what my temper was like. Did

20:43

you feel you had to keep quiet about it? No,

20:45

I've never heard what I am or who I am and

20:48

if people don't like it that's tough. And

20:51

your mother got to see so much of yours

20:54

at SESS I mean as you mentioned after her

20:56

accident she wasn't expected to survive but she lived

20:58

a long life. Did you

21:00

talk to her about your work? Oh yes, oh yeah she

21:02

was the one I could talk to and used to sometimes

21:04

come and sit in court and I remember

21:07

when I was a temporary sheriff and she

21:09

came into court because she used to come and listen the

21:11

police officer was looking after her and obviously

21:14

when I walk in everyone has got to stand up and so

21:16

she stood up and the police officer said to her I bet

21:18

you that's the first time you had to stand up for your

21:20

daughter. Rita

21:23

it's time for your fifth disc, what have you

21:25

got for us? I need something

21:27

to make me laugh at one

21:29

of the desert island and having gone

21:32

to see a fascinating Aida who are

21:34

just amazing they are so funny, a

21:36

bit rude sometimes but the one check

21:39

flights which I won't say which

21:41

airline it's supposed to represent is

21:43

just hilarious. Is it true

21:45

that you took your mum to say that? Oh yes, she's

21:48

a very holy lady but she had a wicked

21:50

sense of humour. Well

21:54

we clicked onto the website and were mightily

21:56

surprised to find the actual cost

21:58

wasn't quite right. advertised.

22:01

We'd forgotten airport taxes, had also too

22:04

be billed both a tob matrix ep

22:06

laughing, buga b Sawyer

22:30

cheap flights fascinating Aida Rita

22:32

Ray as your career took

22:34

off you took on some

22:54

incredibly difficult cases and one of

22:56

which was the Botwell sewage murder

22:58

it was 1992 what exactly was

23:00

the case and who did you

23:02

represent? The case was

23:05

about allegedly a planned shooting across

23:08

a busy pub which no one saw

23:10

and the body was then

23:12

removed by I think men in Crombie

23:14

coats and taken away

23:17

to be disposed of. The

23:19

attempts were made to burn it and then

23:21

it was put into the Botwell sewage and

23:23

of course not the whole body came and

23:25

back out so it was quite difficult. What

23:28

do you remember about your experience in the

23:30

courtroom? The courtroom was very very

23:32

tense because one of the accused

23:34

had a tattoo of a cross on

23:36

his forehead and was staring

23:39

at me constantly. I wasn't appealing for

23:41

him I was appealing for the first

23:43

accused who was acquitted on the

23:45

basis that there was insufficient evidence. I

23:47

don't know whether it's trying to intimidate or not I've no

23:49

idea but I thought. Did you

23:51

feel intimidated? I I felt

23:54

uncomfortable I just smiled at him because

23:56

he constantly was staring at me but

23:58

when I smiled he turned back. away

24:00

and that stopped it. Do

24:02

you ever meet people that you've sentenced later

24:04

on? Do you ever see people in the

24:06

street? Not to have sentenced but I

24:08

have met someone who was in

24:10

a case and was acquitted. I

24:13

actually met him by accident coming

24:15

out of court and he followed me

24:17

and I thought, and

24:19

initially I didn't recognise him. Can you tell

24:22

us anything about the case? It was a

24:24

murder case and he wasn't

24:26

the only accused and

24:29

he followed me out and he said,

24:32

you changed my life and

24:34

he'd gone on to study at university and

24:36

was in

24:39

a profession and I was

24:41

so touched. It's

24:43

a difficult role isn't it because you grew up

24:46

with a very strong sense of justice but the

24:48

pursuit of justice in the legal system forces you

24:50

to confront some of the worst things people can

24:52

do to each other. No absolutely

24:54

but when it comes to being an advocate,

24:57

if somebody said to me and it's happened, or

24:59

suggested to me it was my job to get

25:01

a morph and I said no,

25:04

it's my job to present your defence if you

25:06

have one. And there

25:08

was another person when I said how are you pleading

25:10

he said not guilty and I said, right what's your

25:12

defence? He said, what? I

25:14

said what's your defence? He said, what do you mean? I said

25:17

well you're pleading not guilty and you need to tell me what your defence

25:19

is and he thought, well he said, I thought that was for you and

25:21

I said if that's what you think there's

25:23

the door. You know we don't make up

25:25

defences for people. We have a duty

25:28

to present the defence but we don't

25:30

make it up. Rita,

25:32

tell us about your next piece of music.

25:34

This is the Biz Aes the Flower

25:37

song, a song by Jose Querreras. Jose

25:39

Querreras and his wonderful

25:42

music means a lot to

25:44

me and I was involved in

25:47

one of my very dear friends was dying

25:49

of leukaemia. After he

25:51

died his wife wanted to

25:53

set up a group that we

25:55

could raise some money

25:57

for leukaemia research. We

26:00

had the pleasure of doing the opening

26:02

concert in the Usher Hall

26:04

after all the refurbishment. And

26:07

it was such a delight to have Jose Carreras

26:09

and Lisa Mill come and sing that

26:12

in memory of Henry Stirling, who was

26:14

a very dear friend. We

26:33

had the

26:35

pleasure of doing

26:37

the opening concert

26:39

in memory

26:42

of Henry Stirling, who was a very dear

27:15

friend. The

27:21

Slava Song from Bizet's Carmen performed by

27:23

Jose Carreras with the Orchestra of the

27:25

Royal Opera House, conducted by

27:27

Jacques Delacourt. Rita

27:30

Ray, I wonder how you wrestled with

27:33

your own feelings when you might have

27:35

appeared for someone that you believed was

27:37

guilty. It's not for me

27:39

to believe whether someone's guilty or not.

27:43

I will have the evidence, I will present it

27:45

to the accused and if

27:47

they're saying, well, I'm still not

27:49

guilty, I have a duty to

27:51

defend and to present that case.

27:54

But if an accused said, I'm guilty,

27:56

but I want you to get me off, he would

27:58

be told. cannot defend you

28:00

on that basis. So it's not a question of

28:02

my deciding the evidence, that's

28:05

not the role of the advocate. You

28:08

became a temporary sheriff, a judge in the lower courts in

28:10

1987 and you had a reputation for

28:14

giving out harsh sentences rather than

28:16

lenient ones. Why did

28:18

you personally feel longer prison terms with a

28:20

solution? I wouldn't say I gave

28:22

out harsh sentences, I would just

28:24

say that I gave out sentences which I

28:27

thought were appropriate. And the other thing

28:29

is because I'm passionate about other

28:32

disposals especially for the young

28:34

people trying to keep them out of the criminal

28:37

justice system so I'm absolutely passionate about that. And

28:39

it's not about giving them long sentences, it's

28:41

about sometimes when people re-offend again and

28:44

again and again then there's

28:46

not a lot you can do to fit that.

28:49

I think sometimes when people commit very

28:51

serious crimes such

28:53

as murder and other serious sexual

28:55

crimes then inevitably I think a

28:58

lengthy prison sentence is not only

29:00

just but necessary. I

29:02

mean prison sentences shouldn't be used

29:04

just because you know well what

29:06

else can we do? They should be used

29:08

especially if it's to protect the public and

29:11

if they've committed serious offences. And

29:14

how do we balance sentence

29:16

diversity with the necessity to

29:18

rehabilitate people? Because the prison

29:20

population is soaring and evidence

29:23

suggests that long sentences don't

29:25

necessarily help to rehabilitate people.

29:28

Well you know I think what people

29:31

forget is that in sentencing there is an

29:33

element of punishment so you can't look at

29:35

it only from one standpoint. You

29:37

have to think about yeah rehabilitation

29:39

but you know it's not just

29:41

that, that there has to be

29:43

an element of punishment. But not always it

29:46

depends on the circumstances and the nature of the

29:48

case. Do you know the day that

29:50

I get pleasure from sentencing someone is the day

29:52

I should never sit on the bench. And

29:55

what about the day to day stories that

29:57

you heard in court? I wonder what's that?

30:00

most children giving evidence about what's

30:02

happened to them sometimes can be

30:05

very very difficult to listen to

30:09

but you've got to remember in a trial

30:11

situation you're hearing the

30:13

evidence the same with the jury does and

30:15

you should not be take any

30:18

view of it and there is a presumption

30:20

of innocence and that's absolutely important but

30:22

you know you don't shut off your human

30:25

emotion because sometimes it can be difficult to

30:27

hear witnesses giving evidence about traumatic events in

30:29

their lives. Tell

30:31

us about your next piece of music

30:33

Lady Ray. Well the next piece of

30:36

music is the Ave Maria and not

30:38

one of the more popular ones but

30:40

sung by Iniez Igalante and

30:42

it's a beautiful piece of music I

30:45

think it will remind me of

30:47

my church and my faith because

30:50

I think I'm going to need a bit of reminding about

30:52

that on a desert island. Performed

31:58

by Iniez Igalante. Rita

32:01

Ray, you retired as a judge in 2020 but

32:04

you're still very busy, Risa. You're Rector

32:06

of Glasgow University, you're Chair of the

32:08

New Scottish Catholic Safeguarding Standards Agency and

32:11

you still sit as a judge when

32:13

you're needed, when you called on. What

32:16

do you think your grandfather would have made of the

32:18

career that you've built? Oh, I

32:20

would like to think he would be

32:23

proud and I like to think my mum would have been proud

32:25

as well. She survived to

32:27

see quite a lot of it but not from

32:29

me getting the full-time job as a senator of

32:31

the College of Justice. She didn't see

32:33

that and that saddens me. And

32:37

I wonder after a difficult day in

32:39

course hearing the kinds of stories that

32:41

we've talked about, how you would unwind,

32:43

what comforted you, what restored your emotional

32:45

equilibrium. Well the theatre is very important

32:47

to me and music and concerts.

32:49

I think one of the reasons I like

32:52

the theatre is because very often the courtroom

32:54

there's a bit of theatre in there. I

32:57

don't mean to minimise or anything like that

32:59

but I think that's what

33:02

made me enjoy the theatre so much.

33:04

The dynamics are not that similar? Absolutely.

33:06

We don't want any theatricals

33:08

in court but it is

33:10

quite a dramatic place to be in. I'm about

33:13

to send you off to the desert island.

33:15

Now I wonder what you're hoping to find,

33:17

Risa, what are you imagining? Well I can't

33:19

think of anything worse than having my own

33:21

company. You're not good in your own company?

33:23

I'm not good in my own company. I'll

33:25

enjoy the sun. I love the

33:28

sun. Okay so we're hoping for a sunny

33:30

desert island. I understand that cooking

33:32

is a passion of yours? Yes. Going back to

33:34

your mother's table and your Italian

33:36

side of the family, what's your signature

33:38

dish? I've got a few. I think

33:40

everybody seems to like it, especially the

33:43

lasagna. I do it the Neapolitan way.

33:46

The Neapolitan is put in ricotta,

33:48

not bechamel and it is very

33:50

tasty. All right well

33:52

one more track before we send you away.

33:54

What's your final choice going to do? Well

33:56

the final choice is

33:58

climb every mountain. from The Sound of

34:01

Music and it's a

34:03

beautiful song. It

34:05

just reminds me of just so many

34:07

struggles and it just makes me

34:10

feel, keep going, just

34:12

keep going. Just

34:42

the ticket for the desert island, motivational music.

34:44

Climb every mountain performed by Peggy Wood from

34:46

the original soundtrack to The Sound of Music.

34:48

So Rita Ray, I'm going to send you

34:51

away to the island. I will of course

34:53

give you the books to take with you,

34:55

the Bible, the complete works of Shakespeare and

34:57

another book of your choice. What will that

35:00

be? Well the book that I've chosen is

35:02

a book called The Pursuit of Italy

35:05

and it's a history of its land,

35:07

its regions and their peoples and it's

35:09

by David Gilmour and the reason I've chosen

35:11

this is because I've got the book at

35:13

home but I've never had time to read

35:16

it so I might at

35:18

least be forced to actually sit down for

35:20

once and read a book. I'll be soaking

35:22

up the island sun, dreaming of

35:24

being in Italy with that extended

35:26

family of yours. It's yours,

35:29

you can also have a luxury item. What would you like?

35:32

Well most of my friends know that

35:34

I'm fanatic about fast cars. Petrol head?

35:36

I am indeed but I've realised that

35:38

you would not allow me to have

35:40

a petrol car. So

35:42

what about a solar powered car? Well I

35:44

mean I guess technically I could give you

35:47

a petrol car but it would run out

35:49

pretty quickly. I think the powered car is

35:51

much more sensible. Absolutely. Okay so talk

35:53

me through this back. I want anything

35:55

fast. Bama and I used to drive

35:57

to Italy every year together and I

36:00

we've done quite a lot of the

36:02

Alpine passes over the top. Oh there's

36:04

many hair pin bend. It's just

36:06

fantastic, it's just fantastic and that

36:09

you really learn how to handle

36:11

a car. Rita the twinkle in your

36:13

eye. Well Rita I think

36:15

you'll be delighted to discover that there

36:17

is in fact precedence for people taking

36:19

motor cars of various kinds to the

36:21

desert island and I'm delighted to give

36:23

you yours. Oh thank you very much. And

36:26

finally which one track of the eight that you've

36:28

shared with us today would you rush to take

36:30

us away? Again that was really

36:33

a difficult one but the

36:36

inspirational person in my life is my mum

36:38

so I think mum by many many

36:40

Julie. The Honorable

36:43

Lady Ray Rita Ray thank you very much

36:45

for letting us hear your desert island. Thank

36:47

you, thank you very much. Hello

37:01

I hope you enjoyed my conversation with

37:03

Rita who's probably already zooming around the

37:05

island top speed in her solar-powered car.

37:07

Well you're still a petrolhead if you

37:09

drive a solar-powered car. There

37:12

are many more pioneering castaways from the

37:14

world of law in the desert island

37:16

discs archive including Baroness Brenda Hale, Nazia

37:18

Afzal and Baroness Helena

37:20

Kennedy. Search for desert island

37:22

discs on BBC Surns. The

37:25

studio manager for today's programme with Emma

37:27

Hart. The assistant producer was Christine Pavlovski

37:29

and the producers were Paula McGinley and

37:31

Tim Bannell. The series editor is John

37:33

Goudie. Next time my guest will be

37:35

the playwright and screenwriter James Graham.

37:37

Do join me then. Hello

37:46

I'm Brian Cox. I'm Robin Ince and

37:48

this is the Infinite Monkey Cage trailer

37:50

for our brand new series. We've got

37:52

Mummies, we've got Magic, we've got Asteroids.

37:54

Mummies, Magic and Asteroids. What's the link?

37:56

That it was an asteroid that magically

37:58

went over the world. led to Imhotep

38:00

the money coming back to life? That's correct.

38:03

I thought it would be. We're as scientific

38:05

as ever. But the most important thing to

38:07

know is that we are going to deal

38:09

with the biggest scientific questions we finally ask.

38:11

What is better, cats or dogs? Listen first

38:14

on BBC Sounds.