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Hi, I'm Margie Nomura and welcome

1:58

to the Desert Island Dishes podcast. This

2:00

is the podcast where every week I ask

2:03

my guests to choose their seven desert

2:05

island dishes. These range from

2:07

finding out about the dish that most reminds them of

2:09

their childhood, the best dish they've

2:12

ever eaten, and of course, the

2:14

last dish they would choose to eat before

2:16

being cast off to the desert island. The

2:18

question is, what would you choose as

2:20

your last meal? Hi,

2:22

I hope you're all very well. We have

2:25

a lovely episode for you today with the brilliant

2:27

John

2:27

Watts. Lots of you, I'm sure,

2:30

will be familiar with John from

2:31

his amazingly successful social

2:34

media or his regular TV

2:36

appearances as his career really

2:39

goes from strength to strength. But it's the

2:41

story of how John got to where he is today

2:43

that I really wanted to share. Food

2:46

and cooking mean so many different

2:48

things to different people. You could

2:50

grow up in a family obsessed with food

2:53

and all that comes with it. Or you might not

2:55

and still find your way to cooking later

2:57

in life. And cooking can

2:59

provide opportunity. And it's a passion

3:02

that you can find at any stage of life. You

3:04

could grow up in a world of privilege

3:07

and opportunity and still never

3:10

quite

3:10

make anything of yourself. Or

3:12

you

3:13

can feel lost as a teenager and

3:15

get caught up with the wrong crowd. And

3:17

yet you can turn your life around and it's

3:19

never too late for that. And John has

3:22

done exactly that, which I

3:24

think is very inspiring. His first

3:26

book has just come out, which looks brilliant.

3:29

His recipes are easy and

3:31

delicious. And actually, the day after

3:33

we recorded this episode, I was sitting on the

3:35

bus and the women in front of

3:38

me were planning what they were going to cook that week. And

3:40

they were raving about John and

3:43

his recipes, which I loved overhearing. I

3:46

do hope you enjoyed today's episode. Let

3:48

us know what you think. And without further

3:50

ado, here is John's

3:52

Desert Island dishes. My

3:56

guest today is John Watts. You

3:58

may well know John from his... friendly down-to-earth

4:01

cooking videos online where he has amassed

4:03

a huge following of avid fans, but

4:06

what you may not know is that John is where

4:08

he is today through a lot of hard work and

4:10

determination to completely turn his life

4:12

around. He left school at the age

4:14

of 16 with no idea what he wanted

4:16

to do. He found himself hanging out

4:18

with the wrong crowd and was constantly getting into

4:21

trouble. In 2008 he

4:23

was sentenced to a young offenders institute

4:26

and he said he had two choices to

4:28

spend 23 hours a day in a cell or

4:30

to sign up for everything he could. He

4:32

signed up for the Duke of Edinburgh's award and in

4:34

that moment he says he changed the entire

4:36

course of his life. John became

4:39

the first person ever to earn a Gold

4:41

Duke of Edinburgh award whilst in prison

4:43

receiving the award from Prince Philip himself.

4:46

He then went on to work for Jamie Oliver where

4:48

his passion for food was really ignited and

4:50

now 16 years on he runs

4:52

a successful food business working as

4:55

a chef and has just released his first

4:57

cookbook. Welcome John. Thank

4:59

you so much for having me. It's always interesting

5:01

listening to someone introduce me because it

5:04

just feels like you're talking about

5:05

someone else. I'm like, who's this guy? I'm

5:07

like, wow, it's me. I was going to ask

5:09

you that, could you ever have imagined 16

5:13

years ago what your life would look like

5:15

now?

5:15

I really love sort of sitting

5:18

down with people, chatting about it with a glass

5:21

of wine and sort of taking myself back because I don't do it

5:23

very often and very sort of forward thinking and

5:25

when I do think about it, I'm like, just wow,

5:28

like I mean 16 years. So I think every

5:30

five-year period has always been a huge sort of

5:32

monumental

5:33

period for me

5:35

and to just

5:37

imagine I was even halfway to where I am

5:39

now would have been absolutely incredible.

5:41

Yeah, it's amazing to think isn't it and

5:44

there are so many things that I want to talk to you

5:46

about but I'm thinking that with the Gold

5:48

Duke of Edinburgh under your belt being cast

5:50

off to a desert island is going

5:51

to be a breeze. Yeah,

5:53

that definitely ignited another

5:56

passion in me as well. Food is

5:58

number one but mountain.

9:43

I

10:00

belonged somewhere for the first time

10:03

and yeah that's sort of escalated. It's

10:06

so difficult isn't it because school

10:08

is such an unrealistic

10:11

representation of life and

10:13

yet it only has this very rigid

10:15

way of determining whether you are somebody

10:18

and whether you're going to succeed and it's so

10:20

wrong isn't it because who cares about

10:22

all the stuff that you learn there but

10:25

it can be

10:26

really uninspiring and I wondered

10:28

when I was reading your story when you look back

10:30

now

10:31

what could have happened differently that would

10:33

have meant that the turn of events

10:35

would have been different? I

10:38

think it comes down to just guidance.

10:41

I really really dislike blaming

10:44

anyone or anything for how I ended

10:46

up or where I ended up. I mean I think a

10:48

huge part of why I am

10:50

where I am now is because I've taken responsibility

10:53

myself but you know at that age

10:55

you are a child and I think some of the responsibility

10:58

does come on to other

11:00

people and other things. I

11:03

just think a little bit of guidance,

11:06

I mean one thing I noticed at school was I

11:08

would miss out on you know when you're picking your classes

11:10

and things and I would miss out on all the ones that I had chosen

11:13

to do because I think my last

11:15

name ended in a W so if I think

11:17

back to nobody wanted to do graphics,

11:19

everyone wanted to do cooking or the

11:22

woodwork when it came to the technical

11:25

ones and

11:27

I just remember being at school and looking around the class

11:29

and everybody's last name was a W

11:31

or at the end of the alphabet and I think it was a

11:33

matter of just like okay we've given everyone what they

11:35

wanted now

11:36

we've got these people left we'll chuck them in that class

11:39

and that happened with a few different classes so

11:41

I was away from the people that I you

11:44

know liked being with doing the classes

11:46

that I wasn't really very interested in so I think that was just

11:48

the first part of being essentially

11:52

forgotten I

11:53

would say. God so if

11:55

you've got a name ending in W you

11:57

should double barrel it with a A.

11:59

is ASAP. You're

12:03

right, it's never one person's

12:06

responsibility but it's when like a collection

12:08

of things happen. I think it's when it leads to someone

12:10

feeling the way that it made you

12:12

feel, that's ultimately the worst

12:15

thing that can happen. For a young person because

12:17

when you're 16

12:19

you feel very grown up but now that

12:21

we're older 16 is so

12:23

young isn't it? Yeah I mean I was

12:24

talking to a friend who's a psychologist

12:27

recently and she was saying about how the

12:29

brain isn't fully formed until your sort

12:32

of late 20s especially this

12:34

sort of frontal lobe. So in young

12:36

people they might feel mature but I

12:38

think the frontal lobe deals with this sort of decision

12:40

making and things so you know

12:43

if you are made to feel a certain way and

12:45

you know your brain's still going through that sort of

12:47

maturing process then you know it's a very

12:49

difficult place to be and

12:51

the decision maker not

12:53

the ones that you'd make when you're an

12:56

adult thinking straight.

12:57

No that makes a lot of sense.

12:59

Let's pause there and talk about the second

13:01

desert island dish. What was the first dish you

13:04

learnt to cook?

13:04

Right so

13:07

I mean I was in the prison doing the MVQ

13:09

in professional cookery so I was learning

13:12

to cook all the basics a bechamel

13:14

sauce, apple crumbles and

13:17

pies and all sorts

13:19

of you know your classic dishes

13:21

but the first dish that I

13:23

mastered

13:24

is focaccia and that was when I ended up

13:27

cooking in a restaurant. So I

13:29

mean my real passion for food

13:31

came when I started in the restaurant

13:33

and I

13:35

was around passionate chefs and I've seen ingredients

13:37

I've never seen before and there

13:39

was just an adrenaline and I

13:42

was put on focaccia duty so

13:44

I was making focaccia every single morning

13:46

and you know he used to come

13:48

in quite often back

13:50

in those days with Gennaro Cantaldo,

13:53

the Italian stallion.

13:54

I thought you were gonna say that. And you

13:57

know for anyone that's seen him he's

13:59

usually on Saturday. kitchen is very eccentric

14:01

and oh he's

14:02

great on TV isn't he? I think it's really

14:05

entertaining. When you're in the kitchen with him he's

14:07

great as well but oh the pressure

14:10

of making this bread around him

14:12

and every time he'd come in and I think it

14:14

was just incredible really especially looking back

14:16

being taught something like that by him and he

14:19

used to tell me you know treat it like a treat

14:21

the dough like a baby and be

14:24

very delicate with it and I

14:26

used to just be really proud of every

14:28

good batch of focaccia that I made so

14:31

yeah I think that was that's what I would call

14:33

you know the first real dish that I mastered.

14:36

How many times do you think you have to

14:38

make something like

14:39

focaccia to really master it? That's

14:43

a tough question I

14:44

think yeah a good few hundred

14:47

times so you know being very new to it

14:49

back then

14:50

it took that time to sort of develop

14:52

that naturalness maybe. And

14:54

Jamie Oliver I mean he was such a huge

14:57

part of culture when we were

14:59

growing up was he someone that you were

15:01

very aware of as a teenager before

15:03

you went to work with him?

15:04

I mean before going into prison

15:06

I definitely knew who he was I mean

15:09

he was famous doesn't he for ruining the school dinners

15:12

a bit before that no one was ever very

15:14

keen on him.

15:15

What because he got rid of

15:17

turkey twizzlers?

15:18

Yeah I think people

15:20

sort of in my age bracket now

15:22

are still angry about turkey twizzlers.

15:27

I was never a big fan of the turkey twizzlers anyway.

15:31

But yeah I just think I

15:32

mean he was

15:34

is and was you know what the biggest

15:37

name in the industry so

15:38

he's definitely aware and I did

15:41

I can't remember when I became aware about 15 but

15:44

I think it was during my time

15:46

in prison and it was mentioned to me a

15:48

few times when I was cooking and it was always the goal

15:50

to try and get in there so it

15:53

was difficult to get into 15 because

15:55

I was already in custody but they were offered

15:58

me to go into the chain of restaurants.

17:36

is

18:00

accessible for a lot of people. But

18:02

to me it was something that I thought

18:04

was reserved for

18:07

rich people or really

18:09

clever people.

18:10

Let's pause there and talk about

18:12

the third desert island dish. What's the

18:14

best dish you've ever eaten?

18:15

So the best dish I've ever eaten, and

18:17

this is going back to that restaurant setting

18:19

again, and

18:22

not being a foodie as a child,

18:24

then being in a young

18:26

offenders where the food is, there's

18:28

not a lot of budget there. So

18:31

being in that restaurant setting, I remember getting

18:33

my first bowl of star

18:35

food, which was a spaghetti bolognese with

18:37

crunchy pangrata. So have

18:39

you heard of pangrata, which is the

18:42

herby breadcrumbs with garlic,

18:44

and they call it poor man's parmesan

18:46

in Italy.

18:47

Oh really, is that what they say? Yeah,

18:49

so for the people that

18:51

couldn't afford parmesan, they would use these crunchy

18:53

breadcrumbs, which just adds so much to the dish.

18:56

And I just remember

18:57

sitting down,

18:58

I didn't eat a lot actually when I

19:00

was there, because

19:01

for anyone that's worked in a restaurant, they'll know. It's

19:05

hard labor, and you

19:07

don't really drink or eat for

19:09

most of the day, you're on your feet, and you're

19:12

essentially trying to be a superhuman.

19:16

And I remember at the end of a really, really

19:18

long day,

19:19

sitting down and somebody gave me the bolognese,

19:22

and I was like, wow, this is

19:24

the best thing I've ever eaten. And it's all

19:26

to do with that sort of circumstance, isn't

19:28

it? Because I haven't had good food. I was gonna list

19:30

the best food I've ever eaten, I think

19:33

would be le manoir in

19:35

Oxfordshire, two Michelin star, Raymond Blanc's

19:38

restaurant. If I was going for the

19:40

best food. But when it comes down

19:42

to the atmosphere and the experience,

19:45

the best dish was sitting down and eating that bolognese

19:47

at the end of a hard few days. It wasn't

19:50

on the first day, it was a few days.

19:51

So I

19:53

would have to go for that.

19:55

Something about your story when I was

19:57

reading about it, I don't wanna over...

19:59

play this, but I do think it's very admirable

20:02

because when you arrived

20:04

in prison, you obviously were at a crossroads.

20:07

I was thinking it would have been very easy just to

20:09

kind of give

20:10

in to a feeling of helplessness

20:12

almost and accept your situation and

20:14

that's exactly the opposite of what

20:17

you went about doing by signing up for all

20:19

the things you did and all these courses that you

20:21

did. Was there ever a doubt in your mind that that

20:23

was how you were going

20:24

to approach it? No, I mean I was

20:26

very lucky for this

20:29

reason. So the offence that happened

20:31

that put me in prison happened in

20:33

July of 2007 and I wasn't

20:36

actually put into custody until

20:38

January 2008 and

20:40

during that time a lot

20:42

happened. My life and the life of

20:44

people around me changed drastically

20:47

in

20:48

not a pleasant way and

20:51

I very much at that point realized

20:53

okay I'm doing the wrong thing,

20:55

I'm going down the wrong path and something needs

20:57

to change. So I was able

21:00

to accept that I was going

21:02

to be in that position, I was

21:04

going to be in custody and certainly

21:06

for a couple of years at least.

21:09

So I approached it

21:10

with that mindset whereas for

21:12

a lot of people if you know

21:14

something happens and you're arrested and you're put into custody

21:17

the next morning you're straight away

21:19

just thrown in, you know it's like a tornado

21:21

of emotions and things. I was able to

21:23

walk into the dock in

21:26

court with a bag of clothes and

21:28

things ready to go and I

21:30

think that helped me massively. It's something that

21:32

a lot of people can't do

21:34

and it was just down to the circumstances

21:37

surrounding what was going on with me at the time. So

21:40

yeah I mean going in there with that mindset

21:42

already I just was super

21:45

driven to make something of

21:47

myself. I felt like such a failure, I was a

21:49

failure, I felt like such a failure. I

21:51

was so ashamed, you know I was just embarrassed

21:54

for my family to have to be

21:56

associated with me. I felt like

21:58

I had to do something to

21:59

to make amends for it. Taking the opportunity

22:02

to do the Duke of Edinburgh was a moment

22:05

that you've said ultimately changed

22:07

the entire course of the rest of your life. And

22:09

everybody has these moments when they look back

22:11

at their life and you may not be aware of them as

22:14

they're happening, but you see when you look back

22:16

these certain decisions that led you in a particular

22:18

direction, whether it's good or bad. Did

22:21

it feel momentous in that moment

22:23

when you decided to sign up? Did you feel

22:25

like this was really going to be something

22:27

that would

22:27

change things for you? Yeah, I think

22:29

definitely. I never, ever expected

22:32

to go as far as I did with the Duke

22:34

of Edinburgh's award. And I remember it

22:36

was funded by Reading Football Club and some

22:39

of their people came in and told us about

22:41

it and what we can expect. And there's

22:44

about 100 young inmates in that

22:46

room and they only had space of 15 people

22:48

and they were talking about how

22:50

it could affect you and, you know, their dream.

22:52

I remember one of them saying, my dream

22:55

is to see some of you at the

22:57

palace getting your Gold Award. And I just

22:59

remember I am quite big on the law of attraction.

23:01

And I just remember thinking about it at

23:03

the time and picturing that being me,

23:06

even though at that time I did not think it was going to

23:08

be possible. I was one of the 15 picked

23:11

to do it again down to

23:13

circumstances. It's the length of your

23:15

sentence, the other courses

23:17

that you're doing in there, how well

23:19

you've been behaved in there. It just came down to

23:22

so many different factors. And

23:24

I was lucky enough to be one of those 15

23:26

to start working towards it. I think the moment

23:29

I started, I felt like I'd already achieved

23:31

something and it was already something to phone

23:33

home about and say, I'm

23:35

taking part in the Duke of Edinburgh's award and I'm working

23:37

towards my bronze. So it's just that first step

23:40

towards what I was talking about,

23:42

you know, making amends and being

23:45

able to, you know, make my family

23:47

proud of me rather than ashamed of me. And

23:49

what does the Golds

23:51

involve? Because it's pretty mega, isn't it? Yeah,

23:54

I mean, bronze, silver and gold, they had this split up

23:56

into sections. So you've got four

23:58

sections in the bronze, silver and gold.

23:59

extra section for the

24:00

gold. Okay. In the fourth section, let's see

24:02

if I can remember on the spot. Uh

24:05

so you have the skills section obviously,

24:07

which I went for cooking. You've got

24:09

the volunteering,

24:12

so I was a listener, which

24:14

was basically prisoners trained

24:17

by the Samaritan to be Samaritan,

24:19

so you're there to take a call

24:21

from someone and in prison it is face

24:24

to face, and you listen to someone who is

24:26

going through, it could be anything from

24:28

just missing a family member to feeling

24:30

suicidal, and sometimes it's really really dark

24:33

stuff. And I think being involved

24:35

in that in particular helped

24:37

to grow me as a person because I was first

24:39

of all given responsibility to be

24:41

in that situation and you're living with

24:43

these people and you have to keep these things confidential,

24:47

and I think having that responsibility being

24:49

trusted was a big deal, but then

24:52

also just learning empathy and realising that

24:54

everybody, no matter who they are, where they

24:56

come from, goes through difficult

24:58

emotions and hard times, and

25:01

just to be able to help people as well. So

25:03

that was really sort of beneficial to my

25:05

personal growth. There

25:07

was the expedition, so typically

25:10

you'd be stomping up hills in the mud and

25:12

camping out. So the silver and gold

25:14

I was able to get out on the temporary

25:17

licence and do it. I did the silver

25:20

sections that left the expedition

25:22

until later on when I was able

25:24

to go out and then did them cross-killer. So we did

25:26

have to be a bit catfire in that sense.

25:29

But for the bronze we basically did this thing called

25:31

the jailers challenge. So we had to create this

25:34

team building challenge that went all around the

25:36

grounds of the prison and you're just

25:38

learning how to work with people, you're learning communication

25:41

skills, all the simple skills that I

25:43

think someone like me lacked, and

25:46

it just boosts your self-confidence,

25:49

which are all the things that support

25:52

yourself going forward. It's

25:55

all been really beneficial.

25:56

I know you said you don't ever

25:58

like to assign blame but it's

26:01

all of those things are things that

26:04

school should have been giving you,

26:06

aren't

26:07

they? I know you are right, it's

26:09

just yeah I like to take responsibility

26:11

and put it all in myself but... When you were

26:14

at school if you'd been offered

26:16

the chance

26:16

to do the Duke of Edinburgh would it have

26:19

appealed

26:19

to you in different circumstances?

26:22

Actually no because it has or

26:24

certainly had a certain reputation

26:27

and it wouldn't

26:28

have been the cool thing to do.

26:31

Ah okay.

26:34

Yeah that's interesting isn't it? In the circles

26:36

I was in it just you know it wouldn't have

26:38

been the thing to do however

26:41

I think when you're in somewhere like

26:43

being in custody all those things

26:45

they go out the window it's all about bettering

26:48

yourself taking the opportunity and

26:50

it was the you know one of it's

26:53

not the best thing I ever did. We've

26:54

had many terrible segues on

26:56

this podcast John but I think this might be

26:59

my worst. We're going to talk about the fourth

27:01

desert island dish now. John what is

27:03

your favorite sandwich? Another tough

27:05

one.

27:06

I've gone for roast beef caramelized

27:09

onion and a bit of rocket in

27:11

ciabatta. That's a great sandwich. Yeah

27:13

I just think you know compare it with mustard or

27:16

horseradish or something like that. Have

27:17

you ever heard of the six things that a sandwich

27:20

is supposed to be? Yes. It's

27:22

three things but the opposite so I believe

27:24

it's hot, cold, sweet,

27:27

sour,

27:28

crunchy, soft. Yeah

27:30

that's it you nailed it. But

27:33

it's true when you think and not just sandwiches

27:35

I guess that's kind of true of dishes as well like

27:38

if you're creating a dish or thinking

27:40

about why something works it's because there's always

27:42

this contrast and that's what

27:44

makes something so satisfying to eat. That

27:47

is a great sandwich because that's the kind of good sandwich

27:49

that you can make just as it is

27:51

but then it's also you can form it as leftovers

27:54

couldn't you and then that makes it even better.

27:56

Absolutely. What are your thoughts on the Boxing Day

27:58

sandwich? The

27:59

as in like attacking

28:01

stuffing. Yeah. Love

28:03

it.

28:03

Yeah. But are you of the opinion

28:06

that it's

28:07

better than the Christmas lunch itself?

28:10

I mean, the Christmas

28:10

lunch just gets overhyped, isn't

28:12

it? When something gets hyped up so much, it never

28:15

lives up to the expectations, which is why I think

28:17

most people's favorite ever meal is something

28:19

that's not really extreme.

28:21

People's favorite meals are always just so simple

28:24

and is what everyone always just has to

28:26

remember when you're having friends over. It's

28:29

about the occasion. You've described the

28:31

time that you met Prince Philip at a reception

28:34

for young people receiving their Duke of Edinburgh

28:36

awards. That must have been very surreal.

28:38

Yes, I was

28:41

lucky

28:42

enough. I've met him three times. And

28:45

the first time I didn't really recognize

28:49

the significance,

28:50

actually. And I was

28:52

at this event

28:54

for the Duke of Edinburgh's awards and he sort of did the rounds.

28:58

He asked me what I did for the expedition.

29:01

And I told him, I was in prison, I did this

29:04

and that. And he asked

29:06

me if we were all attached by ball and chain, which

29:08

was kind of funny, stomping around a mountain, detached

29:11

by ball and chain. And then

29:14

I met him, it can't have

29:16

been very long after. And this

29:18

is all on camera because I was lucky enough that they were filming

29:21

me as part of a documentary on him for the

29:23

BBC. I'm able to look back. Otherwise,

29:25

I'd probably think it was a dream and

29:27

it didn't happen. I was getting my gold

29:29

award and I was with two

29:32

officers from the prison who had taken me through

29:34

it. And my dad was allowed there. And I was

29:36

still two weeks away from being officially released.

29:39

And again, he spoke to me. And this wasn't

29:42

the BBC saying, can you speak to him? They have no power

29:44

like that. They very much just put the

29:46

camera around and hoped that he was

29:48

gonna talk to me. And that

29:50

time he asked me about my service and what I did. So

29:53

I told him I worked alongside this marathon. And

29:55

I think that time, because the

29:57

BBC were filming it and the producers.

30:00

sort of told me a lot of Prince Philip's

30:02

background and the sort of historical

30:04

part. And that's where I was like, oh,

30:07

wow, this is quite a big deal that I'm sort of

30:09

meeting this guy, especially

30:12

coming from where I come from and what I've just been

30:14

through. But yeah, really, really

30:16

incredible experience. And like I said, I'm so glad it's

30:19

on film so

30:20

that I can actually be like, otherwise, it's one

30:22

of those things you're like, did that really happen?

30:24

Yeah, not to put too fine a point

30:26

on it, but that obviously was very

30:28

meaningful to you and amazing, but it must

30:30

have also been quite meaningful to him.

30:33

Like you were the first person to ever receive

30:35

their gold awards whilst being in

30:37

prison. And ultimately,

30:39

that's what he set the award up

30:42

for. That must have been an amazing

30:44

moment for him as well.

30:45

Yeah, I think so. I think

30:47

he used to play it down a lot, the whole scheme,

30:50

I think he used to play it down. But

30:52

yeah, I think it had the desired effect.

30:55

And I've often described the Duke of Edinburgh as

30:57

well, like a sort of template for life. I

30:59

mean, when I was in custody, you get all these

31:02

offending behaviour problems ranging from

31:04

anger management to

31:06

enhanced thinking skills and all the

31:08

things that these

31:09

people go through that should be going through.

31:12

But it's all done in a very sort

31:15

of classroom environment where people

31:17

don't want to be

31:17

there. Whereas something like

31:19

the Duke of Edinburgh's would, you want to do it, you're

31:21

achieving something, and it's just helping

31:23

you develop and grow, which is exactly what

31:25

it was brought out to do into

31:29

a good member of society. So

31:32

I hope he was proud. I mean, the third

31:34

time that I met him was I was at

31:36

a big charity event and I wasn't

31:38

supposed to talk and they put a video

31:40

of me up on the screen, but then

31:42

a famous comedian sort of introduced

31:45

me onto the stage. David Walliams, it

31:47

was, and he made a comment about

31:49

he made a comment about

31:52

me being too shy to talk. It wasn't that

31:54

wasn't the reason I was told not

31:56

not necessarily. They were like, oh, just go up there.

31:58

It was like 600 people in the audience.

31:59

We're going to play the video. They can give a round of

32:02

applause just so they see. And he made a comment

32:03

like that. And I was like, I

32:05

know, I'm going to say something

32:06

now. Because he sort of he put it on me a little bit.

32:09

And I just remember

32:12

looking down and I could see Prince Philip with a

32:14

big grin on his face. And I think he was probably quite happy

32:16

that I'd been like, no, I'll show you. I will

32:18

say something.

32:19

John, that's made me feel like

32:21

instantly hot and sweaty thinking

32:23

about going up in front of 600 people, not

32:26

having thought you'd say anything and then having

32:28

to say something. That's amazing.

32:30

Let's pause there and talk about the fifth desert

32:32

island dish. What's the dish you eat

32:34

the most often? Does pasta count as a dish?

32:36

Yes, definitely. What's

32:39

your go-to sauce? How do you have

32:41

it? The thing I love about pasta is it's

32:43

so versatile

32:44

with me. You can have anything. But

32:46

I have to say, I think a carbonara is my favorite

32:49

go-to pasta because it's so quick. And

32:51

I think a lot of people are intimidated

32:54

by the egg scrambling and

32:56

things like that. But I think when you get the knack

32:58

and you can make it, it's just so quick, easy,

33:01

delicious. Got a bit of everything.

33:04

When you went to work for Jamie Oliver,

33:06

you've described that time as really the

33:08

moment that ignited your passion for cooking.

33:11

But I wondered, like, the whole restaurant

33:13

environment. I know you were the first to

33:15

get in every day and you've talked

33:17

about that a little bit. But did you instantly

33:20

love the restaurant itself?

33:22

Honestly, I mean, when I was

33:24

in custody and I was learning to cook,

33:27

doing the MVQ, it was only something

33:30

to give me an opportunity, to give me a

33:32

job. That was all it was. From

33:34

probably

33:35

the first minute I walked

33:38

in that restaurant, I was in love. It was

33:40

just everything about it, the smell,

33:42

the passion coming off of people, like

33:45

I said earlier, the adrenaline around

33:47

the place, the ingredients. I

33:50

always remember walking in the big walk-in fridge

33:52

and just seeing stacks

33:53

and stacks of fresh herbs that I didn't know existed.

33:56

And I've like, smelling each one, it's like, wow.

33:59

to any dried herbs before that. And I

34:02

just remember always being like, you know, oregano

34:04

and mixed herbs and

34:06

thyme and rosemary when they're dried. They're

34:08

all very similar. What

34:09

is this? But when you've got the fresh herbs

34:12

there, you're like, wow. And

34:14

then I just think it's so incredible, has something can grow

34:16

from a seed and then you have this beautiful ingredient

34:18

you can use. And I was learning about the different

34:20

ingredients and

34:21

the quality, you know, tomato off the shelf

34:23

from a supermarket is not the same as a tomato

34:26

that's come from the mountains or the hills of Italy.

34:29

You know, it's completely different. And when you're using the right produce,

34:31

you can just create incredible things.

34:34

And I just, yeah, I fell in love. I think

34:36

I described it once as that was

34:38

where the fire was lit inside of me and it's still

34:41

raging.

34:41

I think some people go through life and they

34:43

never find that thing.

34:45

So it's amazing that you found it at the point

34:47

that you did. And yeah, you were learning

34:50

two things at once, because they think the ingredient

34:53

thing is one thing, which is kind of mind

34:55

blowing. And then the actual process of

34:57

cooking, which is also, I always say this, I

34:59

think it always sounds really cheesy, but it is kind of magical

35:02

when you first start learning to cook and

35:04

you just turn ingredients into a

35:06

dish and it's watching that whole process happens.

35:09

So yes, it's incredible that that

35:11

happened all at the same time. Your first

35:13

cookbook is now out, which

35:15

is very exciting. Was

35:18

writing a cookbook something that you ever

35:21

dreamt about?

35:22

I think from the moment I was sort of into

35:25

cooking, I think when I really started enjoying

35:27

it, it was always working under Jamie

35:30

Oliver and

35:31

obviously what he's done, and I don't know,

35:33

he's probably the biggest cookbook writer

35:35

in the world. So I think I sort of looked at that

35:38

and thought, you know, that's the dream. That's the

35:40

ultimate goal. It was

35:42

one of the, I didn't know how it would come about, but

35:44

I think I always knew that one day I would

35:47

have a cookbook, have a recipe, and I would

35:50

have loved to have done it sooner, but I

35:52

just, I don't know, I didn't really know how to

35:54

go about

35:54

it. And it was really, it was the

35:56

pandemic pushing me into sharing recipes

35:59

on social media, which is,

35:59

has catapulted me into that world

36:02

where it's become something that is

36:04

now reality. Oh, that's so interesting

36:06

because obviously you have this enormous

36:09

following online now, but that was really

36:11

spurred on by the pandemic.

36:13

Oh, absolutely. So

36:16

I was cooking for

36:18

quite a few celebrities and things before

36:20

the pandemic and I was catering. I have my own business

36:22

and I was catering for all sorts

36:23

of events. I had a fairly

36:25

good following. I think it was about 9,000.

36:28

And when the pandemic hit

36:30

and everything I'd been working for disappeared,

36:32

like the whole industry

36:33

collapsed and I was just cooking

36:36

for one client in this most

36:38

beautiful kitchen. I started

36:40

to just film the recipes of them because I had so much

36:42

time

36:43

and I posted it and I noticed it was

36:46

being engaged with a lot and people enjoyed it, people

36:48

were asking for more. So I just carried

36:50

on. And believe

36:51

it or not, first recipe I filmed

36:54

for social media was feared scallops

36:56

with truffle and porcini, which

36:58

cost about just the ingredients, about £60 to

37:00

feed two people.

37:02

Very relatable.

37:03

Yeah. And I just find it so funny

37:05

how it's gone from that to

37:08

now, you know, these really quick and easy dishes

37:10

that anyone can make at home.

37:11

I guess because with food media,

37:14

there are like two sides to it, aren't there? There's like

37:16

the aspirational side of all that something

37:18

I would never cook. It's expensive. It's difficult.

37:20

I don't know how I would do that, but I want to watch

37:22

how it's done. And the other side is like

37:25

show me something that I can easily make.

37:27

And you've had both sides of the spectrum.

37:28

Yeah, that's definitely the side that

37:31

I have adapted

37:32

to become

37:32

is that easy to make recipes. And

37:34

I think that's why my following has grown so

37:36

much. And it's,

37:38

you know, I just hit 500K today, half

37:41

a million followers on Instagram, almost half

37:43

a million on TikTok. And it's just

37:45

from sharing these videos that I enjoy

37:48

making. And that's the fun thing. I enjoy making

37:50

them. I enjoy the

37:51

engagement that comes with making them. Imagine

37:54

all those people standing in a stadium. I

37:57

used to think about

37:57

it like that. Not to freak you out.

37:59

As it was growing, I used to think

38:02

about it like, oh, it's still Samford

38:04

Bridge now, which is 45,000. Oh, it's

38:07

nearly got Wembley. Wow, I can feel Wembley

38:09

now. I can feel too Wembley. And now it's like, oh my

38:11

goodness.

38:13

Life has changed so much over

38:15

the last 16 years. What does

38:18

the future hold in terms of what's

38:20

left on the list of things for

38:21

you to achieve? Would you like to open

38:24

your own restaurant? Yeah, I mean, leading

38:26

up to 2020,

38:28

or, you know,

38:30

at the beginning of 2020, that was the plan

38:33

to open somewhere. It was actually going to be

38:35

a deli and a cookery school. And

38:37

I had investment and the premises

38:39

and the contract was in front of me. And then, you know,

38:42

Covid happened and

38:45

everything shut down. And in a way,

38:47

I'm quite grateful because, I mean, it just wasn't

38:49

the right time. I think for me, forget outside

38:52

circumstances and what was going on in the world, but

38:54

it just wasn't really the right time. And I've sort of been

38:56

put on this path now where I'm really quite

38:58

happy and I feel quite fulfilled and there's a lot

39:00

of potential. But in terms of a restaurant

39:02

in the future, absolutely. My cousin's

39:05

a big foodie. We grew up together

39:06

with the same age and neither of us

39:08

are foodies growing up. But now he's

39:10

a huge foodie as well. And he would

39:13

quite like to open a restaurant with me. I

39:15

think at some point

39:15

we're going to make it happen. It's amazing because that's

39:17

what everyone always says about business partners.

39:20

If you have a sibling or a best friend or a relation,

39:23

they actually, they always are going to make the

39:25

best business partners. So that feels

39:27

very exciting. We're on to the sixth

39:29

desert island dish. What is your go-to

39:32

dinner

39:32

party dish? This is the easiest

39:34

question for me to answer. Beef

39:36

Wellington. A lot of people will shy away from it.

39:39

People that like a challenge will jump at

39:41

it. And it's a difficult dish to perfect.

39:44

What's your secret? I've

39:46

got a few different

39:47

secrets. I mean, I would always

39:49

see a fillet and make the

39:51

mushroom dixelles

39:53

the night before and even wrap

39:55

it the night before as well. So wrap the beef with

39:57

the mushroom and sort of parmaham or whatever

39:59

you're using. using, wrap it quite tightly

40:01

and it almost sat in the fridge overnight.

40:04

Then wrap it in the pastry, but then I'll also wrap

40:07

the pastry quite tightly to secure it. Then

40:09

in the fridge again, so that

40:11

it's all set and secure. And then

40:13

onto a hot tray, which is

40:16

quite important. There's a few

40:18

steps as well, sorry, I missed out things like

40:20

the mushrooms, really making sure there's no liquid in

40:22

them. Because what you want is

40:25

a crisp bottom. And I will

40:27

get it every single time without fail nowadays,

40:30

after making hundreds and hundreds of beef wellingtons

40:33

as a private chef, it was always the most popular

40:35

dish. I think because it's

40:37

not something that people can make easily. And

40:40

it's not something you can eat

40:42

out often either, not many places have

40:45

it. So people would choose it quite often.

40:47

So I feel like I've perfected it. And

40:50

now it's also something that if you do

40:53

know how to make, you can get it ready beforehand.

40:55

So having it in the fridge, brushing

40:57

it with egg wash, and then it's ready, you

40:59

know, it's in the oven and, and it's

41:01

ready. So it's not like you're slaving away in the kitchen

41:04

to get something ready while people are enjoying themselves.

41:06

It's something you can prepare beforehand. And

41:08

it's the ultimate showstopper. Well,

41:10

yeah, if I turned up to my friend's house and

41:12

they said me beef wellington, I would be very

41:15

happy. I think it's scary because

41:18

the fillet is such an expensive cut of meat.

41:20

I think people are so scared of overcooking

41:23

it. I remember one of the first private

41:25

chef and jobs I ever did, they wanted fillets

41:27

for 50 people. And I turned

41:30

up and they only had an auger. And

41:33

I don't know what the temperatures of an auger.

41:36

It

41:36

was so stressful.

41:39

I feel your pain. I always, I always

41:41

find it funny because people who have an auger, they're

41:44

so excited to get you in the kitchen and I come

41:46

over, you can cook in the auger. And I'm

41:48

like, Oh, no,

41:50

I think they're great. They look incredible. And

41:53

I love them. But

41:54

gorgeous. They look gorgeous. But

41:56

they're all different temperatures. Every

41:59

auger is very

41:59

very different. It's not practical. Yeah, very

42:02

practical. No, you're definitely not for a beef

42:04

Wellington. When you do a dinner party, do you

42:06

often do a pudding? Yeah,

42:07

quite often and the

42:10

most popular one is the chocolate fondant, the

42:12

melt in the middle. Which again, fairly

42:14

straightforward. You can get them made the day

42:16

before and then into the oven eight

42:18

to ten minutes and they're ready. But do

42:20

you think it shows like MasterChef that has scarred

42:23

people? Because the fondant is actually quite

42:25

an easy pudding.

42:26

Yeah. But I think we've watched so many dry

42:28

cake ones on MasterChef

42:31

that maybe people are scared.

42:32

Yeah, yeah, it's all

42:34

for theatrical effect, isn't

42:36

it? If in doubt, undercooked.

42:38

Yeah, you can undercook them as well and you

42:40

should find. The white

42:41

chocolate ones are difficult. I've

42:44

had those split on me a couple of times. Yeah, I

42:46

don't think I've ever had a white chocolate. Yeah, because

42:48

of the low cocoa content,

42:51

they're quite difficult but you can make

42:53

them work but temperamental. I probably wouldn't

42:55

do it often. I'd do it more for myself

42:58

rather than in a high pressured

43:00

environment.

43:01

On Desert Island dishes, we have a

43:03

cookbook corner. So I'd love to know what

43:06

is your most treasured

43:06

cookbook? So Cooking

43:09

with the MasterChef by Michel Roux Jr.

43:11

And

43:12

I've never actually cooked anything from it.

43:14

But I met him at an event, one

43:17

of the Duke of Edinburgh award event, just before

43:19

my release. And he just gave me like

43:21

a few sort of words of wisdom, which to him wouldn't

43:24

have meant anything. But to me, it meant a lot.

43:27

And so the first cookbook I bought when

43:29

I was released, and I was in my own place, and I was

43:31

able to cook for myself, was Cooking

43:33

with the MasterChef. And then, certainly

43:36

recently, I met him again,

43:38

for the third time actually,

43:39

but I was given that book as part of

43:41

this campaign that I was working on.

43:44

And I got it signed. So I think now that is

43:46

my most treasured cookbook.

43:48

What were his words of advice?

43:50

Do you know what I can't even remember?

43:53

But it just felt already

43:54

meaningful at the time. At the time, I just remember

43:56

feeling, you know, I've seen him on MasterChef.

43:59

And...

44:00

to see him in real life. I don't think I'd ever

44:02

seen a famous person before that

44:05

day. To see someone who I've known from

44:08

the world of media and to talk

44:10

to me and essentially encourage

44:12

me, it

44:13

meant a lot to me. I think it's so interesting

44:15

because so often people's

44:18

stories do have these

44:20

interactions with people and it doesn't have to be

44:22

a celebrity, but it's amazing how

44:25

you have these interactions. It might not have meant anything

44:27

to the other person, but to you it means so

44:29

much. I think it's just a lesson

44:32

that we can all learn from because you just

44:34

never know what impact the tiny little

44:36

moment is going to have on someone else's life,

44:38

particularly young people. Okay,

44:40

we're on to the final seventh

44:43

desert island

44:43

dish. John, what is the last

44:45

dish you would choose to eat before being cast

44:47

off to the desert island? I

44:49

want a really decent

44:51

steak cooked

44:53

well, not well done, but cooked well.

44:56

What cut would I go for? Probably a nice wagyu

44:58

ribeye with mac and cheese, maybe

45:01

a truffle mac and cheese, push the boat out,

45:04

triple cooked duck fat chips, creamed

45:06

spinach, you know, carb overload,

45:09

get ready for the incoming weeks

45:11

of starvation. And then

45:13

there's got to be some butterscotch angel

45:15

delight. It has to be, it has to

45:17

be. Have you tried making your own version

45:19

of the angel delight? No,

45:21

I haven't actually.

45:22

I might, that might be something

45:24

I look into. Let's do it as a collapse.

45:28

John, those are your desert island dishes.

45:30

Thank you so much.

45:31

Thank you for having me.

45:33

So there we have it, another delicious

45:36

day of desert island dishes. Don't

45:38

forget that you can rate, review and subscribe

45:40

to the podcast on iTunes. It really

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does make such a difference. It boosts

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to find it, which is great and means that

45:49

I can keep bringing it to you each week.

45:52

If you don't already, then come and follow me on Instagram

45:54

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45:56

also sign up for the brand new newsletter,

45:59

Dinner Tonight. at desertislandishes.co.

46:03

Thank you very much for listening and I'll see you

46:05

next week. Bye!

46:30

you