0:01

Ted Audio Collective If

0:07

you want to make a change this year, check

0:09

out How to Be a Better Human, a podcast

0:11

from Ted. I'm Chris Duffy,

0:13

I'm a comedian and each week on How to

0:15

Be a Better Human, I sit down to have

0:17

an honest and hopefully funny and revealing conversation with

0:19

an expert who can help us to see the

0:21

world in a new way. This season,

0:24

we're diving into everything from how you can

0:26

love better to how to create

0:28

habits that stick to how to have hope in

0:30

a world and at a time where that feels

0:32

really challenging. You can find all

0:34

those topics and so many more on episodes

0:37

of How to Be a Better Human, wherever

0:39

you get your podcasts. My

0:42

first show was so bad. I

0:44

was so bad. I was super

0:46

uncomfortable on stage, not

0:49

particularly capable. And

0:51

the second show was at the living room. That

0:55

one was much better because I realized

0:57

that the best strategy was just to

0:59

be myself. This

1:05

is Design Matters with Debbie Milman. For

1:12

15 years, Debbie Milman has been talking with designers

1:14

and other creative people about what they do, how

1:16

they got to be who they are and what

1:18

they're thinking about and working on. On

1:21

this episode, a conversation with Lucy

1:23

Wainwright Roach about her musical family,

1:25

her career as a singer-songwriter and

1:27

her musical tastes. I really like

1:29

sad music a lot. Most

1:33

of the songs I love are really sad. Here's

1:36

Debbie. Despite

1:38

the fact that Lucy Wainwright Roach

1:41

comes from music royalty, her father

1:43

is Grammy Award winning folk artist

1:45

Loudoun Wainwright III, her mother was

1:48

one third of the legendary folk

1:50

trio The Roaches, and her

1:53

half siblings are Rufus and Martha

1:55

Wainwright. She started her

1:57

career as an elementary school teacher. Eventually

2:00

she began singing back up in her

2:02

brother's band, and by 2010 she had

2:04

recorded and released

2:06

her own CD. When

2:08

you hear her beguiling voice and listen

2:10

to her songs, you might conclude she

2:13

had no choice in the matter. There

2:16

are a lot of ways to

2:18

put this but unlike

2:22

you. Lucy

2:26

Wainwright-Roch is here in the studio today

2:29

to talk about her life, her career,

2:31

her family and her music, and maybe

2:33

she'll sing a song for us. Lucy

2:36

Wainwright-Roch, welcome to Design Matters. Thanks for

2:39

having me. Lucy, I understand

2:41

that you're a rapid M&M fan

2:43

and even know every

2:45

word to cleanen out my closet.

2:47

Is that true? That is true.

2:50

No one has ever heard me

2:52

sing it except for my mother.

2:54

Well, would you consider singing it

2:56

now? I don't think I can. I think

2:59

that would take some real preparation. And

3:02

maybe I might have to be

3:04

overly exhausted to do it. Darn.

3:07

Yeah, you're not tired today. When

3:10

did you first discover M&M and what was

3:12

the allure? I just heard

3:14

him on the radio. That song Mockingbird,

3:17

one of the songs about his

3:19

kids, and many

3:21

of his songs are so

3:23

heartbreaking and incredibly fit together.

3:25

It's just jaw-dropping to me.

3:28

And he actually reminds me of my dad,

3:30

writing-wise, a little bit too, which my dad,

3:32

I don't think, would be into. I

3:34

could see that. When he talks about his family. Yeah, that's

3:36

good. It reminds me of my dad. And his

3:39

kids, they're certainly candidness for both of their writings that

3:41

I can see. I wouldn't have ordinarily thought that. It

3:43

would never have occurred to me, but I think you're

3:45

right. Lucy, you were born

3:48

and raised in Greenwich Village, New York City. Your

3:50

parents split up when you were two, and I've

3:53

read that you lived with your mom,

3:55

says Eroach, in a tiny one-bedroom apartment

3:57

where you had the bedroom and she had the living room.

4:00

Your mom has said that while it

4:02

was often financially stressful, you never had

4:04

the sense you were poor. Have

4:06

you and your mom always been close? Yes.

4:09

My mom and I are

4:11

really enmeshed, you might say.

4:14

And we talk most every day and

4:17

text a lot. And we work

4:19

together too. So we sometimes

4:21

tour together and we

4:23

shared a hotel room when I was a kid and we

4:25

share a hotel room still. I

4:27

can't even imagine what it must have been

4:30

like to grow up with Sassy Roach as

4:32

your mother. I've been a fan

4:34

of their music, a rabbit fan I might

4:36

say. And I could probably sing many,

4:39

many songs on the spot. Not that I'm going to, but

4:41

I'm just letting you know. We could do that together. Let's

4:45

sing him and song together. But

4:49

I've been a fan of their music since 1979. What

4:53

is your favorite song? I

4:55

would say one of my all time favorite

4:57

Roach's songs is One Season. I

5:00

love that song so much. It

5:02

just holds up with

5:05

every passing year. I relate to it more and more, which

5:07

I'm not sure is a great sign about me

5:09

in general. But the song is

5:11

just like, it's so good. Well, their

5:13

music is timeless. I think every single one of

5:16

their albums still hold up. Yeah, I

5:18

think so too. How much time do

5:20

you spend with your dad at this point in your life?

5:23

We also work together. I open for him sometimes, and

5:25

then sometimes me and my mom and my dad do

5:27

shows all together. So it kind of goes and fits

5:29

and starts with the whole family. So

5:32

maybe I'll see him a lot over a space of a

5:34

couple of months where we're working. And then not

5:37

that often, but he's in New York and

5:39

so am I, but we're both on the road.

5:42

So part of the thing about everybody is just that

5:44

we're all, you have to catch each other in the

5:46

same city at the same time, which is a little

5:48

hard. My dad is very good at keeping in touch.

5:51

So he likes to meet for dinner and he calls.

5:53

If I don't see him, we talk on the phone.

5:56

I don't want to spend that much time talking about

5:58

your family because I want to. The talk

6:00

about you and your music in

6:02

your life. But I thought it

6:04

would be fun to ask you

6:07

for one sentence descriptions of your

6:09

sort of immediate musical family and

6:11

will start with Anna and Kate

6:13

Mcgarrigle Each individual. ah. Well,

6:16

yes, Steelers are. I think the day

6:18

before yesterday was Kate Mcgarrigle birthday and

6:21

she is passed away. now. ten years

6:23

else. This is more than the sentence

6:25

of is a sentence. I

6:28

didn't know her well. But

6:30

if we'd had the chance to get to know each other, I

6:32

think we would have liked each other. And

6:34

one about an Anna? i don't

6:37

see her often. Though. And

6:39

I do. She's mysterious and lovely.

6:43

Maggie. Roads lead great.

6:45

Brilliant. Maggie Roots. I'm.

6:50

One of the most brilliant

6:52

and loyal people. That. Use

6:54

it. ever know. Also really

6:57

love cheese. Terry

7:00

Rhodes. She

7:04

is absolutely fascinating to talk to

7:06

on any topic, absolutely any topic

7:08

yes and also just one of

7:11

my all time favorite people. Loudon

7:14

Wainwright deserved. That sunny.

7:16

The thing that comes into my head is

7:18

that I think he's a great dad which

7:20

I don't think is something that is known

7:22

for it. I don't think people think that

7:24

about him but I would say he's been

7:26

a great dead to me. Some.

7:29

Hands that looks different than what you

7:31

think and absolutely. Martha. Wainwright.

7:35

And Will in her light shines upon new.

7:37

it's the best feeling. That. There

7:39

is Rufus Wainwright. We.

7:43

Are very different and are sort of

7:45

way that we are in the world

7:47

but he. Has this.

7:50

Deep. Sweet. Sentimental.

7:54

Thing about him that. Just

7:56

keeps everybody very connected. And

7:58

the family. And finally your

8:01

mom says the rich. She.

8:03

Almost. Always. Is.

8:06

Exactly spot on, With

8:09

whatever she says or does day

8:11

so many things say if out

8:13

of them. But yeah I do

8:15

have to say and I ordinarily

8:17

go bragh. I'm on the show,

8:20

but I have the noted distinction

8:22

of having seen every single person

8:24

that I just mentioned in can

8:26

Really? absolutely it's like a collection

8:28

of like serial bus. Toys and

8:31

I. Have them all. But I have

8:33

never seen you perform all together as as

8:35

in the Roaches are I agree has been

8:37

solo? Yeah, well we have done that. We

8:40

went on a cruise altogether and performed on

8:42

the cruise altogether. That was. Intense.

8:45

On when did you also do that in

8:47

when you were in Alaska didn't You will

8:49

travel together and then I'll take the audience

8:51

on buses and trains with you. We did

8:53

in Alaska. yes we do says is that

8:55

word is is is pick people up Along

8:57

the way it was It's this thing called

8:59

Ruth's on the Rails. I'm these people from

9:01

lovely people run run these things were musicians

9:03

coming in the audience com and it's kind

9:05

of an all expense paid trip and often

9:07

times they'll be on trains for a lot

9:09

of the time and even sleep or trains

9:12

like one of the ones that I did.

9:14

We. Slept on the train the one in

9:16

Alaska. we didn't sleep on the train and

9:18

they them both. some buses as well and

9:20

some votes. So the audience came with us

9:23

or maybe like forty five audience members and

9:25

then me at my mom, my dad and

9:27

my brother and my aunt Sloan. Martha can

9:29

come closer Sunless starting kindergarten and I read

9:32

was your grandmother's selling cds She wasn't little

9:34

his on but she used to sell the

9:36

Cds on. I was a kid with the

9:38

roses but I'm it was slowly so Wales

9:41

I mean I'm the I basically was like

9:43

if I see a whale. It was

9:45

worth it and I did hello we were

9:47

at that time at it was Discovery here

9:49

Soon as an assassin. So

9:52

I render when you were four or five

9:55

years old. that was when you first greased

9:57

a stage. It. Was it the

9:59

great? Bottom line: The nightclub in New

10:01

York City were ruthless. Martha Wainwright

10:03

were performing. Talk about what happened.

10:06

They got me up on stage. I think it

10:08

might have been. A Christmas

10:10

So or something. A Roaches Christmas

10:12

show maybe. And I got up

10:14

and I was supposed to sing

10:17

and I just. Burst.

10:19

Into tears and my dad had to come

10:21

and get me off the stage. I remember

10:23

that he came to the edge of the

10:25

station, lifted me off the stage and my

10:27

mom. things that probably the whole audience thought

10:29

that it was child abuse. Because

10:31

they were like get up on the

10:33

season and but I think I thought

10:35

I wanted to do it and then

10:37

I got out there and I was

10:39

like oh cheese and we you just

10:41

shy and he wasn't shy. I was

10:43

very shy as a kid I did

10:45

not not not with people closest to

10:47

me but. But in school island

10:50

talk and stuff really at all. Until the

10:52

second grade I had a teacher who taught

10:54

me to talk and then I just not

10:56

know I talk. Incessantly. I

10:59

understand you first tried to play the guitar

11:01

when you are about seven. Were you trying

11:03

to teach yourself? Who is teaching you? My.

11:05

Mom and My Aunt Terry.

11:09

My aunt Harry was gonna teach me and

11:11

they got a left handed guitar because I'm

11:13

left handed and that I think she tried

11:16

to teach me Old Macdonald on only the

11:18

tar and I just wasn't feeling it and.

11:21

We all gave up and then it wasn't until

11:23

I was in high school that I started to

11:25

play the guitar. And I play guitar right handed.

11:27

I don't know if that was part of it.

11:30

like maybe. Maybe. I'm not that

11:32

left handed or something and that the

11:34

let but also seven as young for

11:36

the guitar because it hurts your fingers

11:38

unless it also in place. Five quarts

11:40

on the to. Switch.

11:44

Thinking that I'd be able to play better

11:47

that way, but I can. Yeah, me too.

11:49

Same and also by the way, five courses.

11:51

I in a million. He did it in

11:53

three. Yeah, but yeah, Iran is I don't

11:56

have the gene. It's my biggest regret and

11:58

my life that I don't. That team

12:00

Really? Yeah I just you know I n

12:02

one of things that I really wanted to

12:04

ask you when I ask every musician that

12:06

comes on the show this question have you

12:08

heard the song. I

12:11

often seal in a panic like I'll never

12:13

as a follow them some a little that

12:15

in that phase right now and I also

12:18

often have sort of a blackout about what

12:20

happens when I when I write. But.

12:24

That aside, I usually sit with the

12:26

the tar. And I'll either get

12:28

some family the that I like or. Or.

12:31

Some kind of melody that goes with it

12:33

and. Have some his I'll

12:35

get stand in words that I just put

12:37

in to like if the shape of the

12:39

melody in the not replace them later a

12:41

thing that happens to me a lot as

12:43

all get averse and a chorus and then

12:45

I'll be like well. Said.

12:48

That. And then what we like?

12:50

Oh geez, I have to finish his somehow

12:52

and I it's hard to. Get.

12:54

Past that initial idea for me,

12:56

but oftentimes his ego into his

12:58

own and I'm not even sure.

13:02

What happens? But man at, I'm so

13:04

grateful every time it happens. And it's

13:06

especially greatly you don't turn on the

13:08

sole major throat. That's the thing that

13:11

happens a lot when you hated yeah,

13:13

like as soon as you do it.

13:15

My mom says that it's like a

13:17

cat food. Costs. Of the

13:19

hairball and then jumps back and looked

13:21

at it like who did that affect

13:23

you know and I think that's pretty

13:25

good description. Yeah, I'm insights not kind

13:28

of turn on your work I think

13:30

either part way through or afterwards. I

13:32

mean after I've made a record. I

13:34

usually do not want to hear it. Ever

13:37

again. that same

13:39

feeling of somehow it it just press is

13:41

your buttons in a way that other people

13:43

suffer. Do. You

13:45

ever once a song is finished, ever

13:48

go back in. We write lyrics

13:50

or change. The core is so

13:52

do anything to augmented in some way.

13:54

I have never done that. There's a

13:57

song or my new record. That.

13:59

i really still, miraculously,

14:02

but there is a lyric in it

14:04

that I wish I had changed. And

14:07

I haven't changed it yet, but

14:10

I would say I feel regret

14:12

about it. So I've thought,

14:15

well, I mean, maybe you

14:17

could change it, you know, just because it's not

14:19

the official recording, I could change it in show.

14:21

So I'm thinking about changing it, because every time

14:23

I get to that part, I'm like, ugh, I

14:26

wish I hadn't written that. Well,

14:28

Joni Mitchell and Stevie Nicks have changed

14:30

lyrics. I've heard Stevie Nicks change

14:33

the lyrics to Landslide, which is

14:35

sort of shocking. And then

14:37

Joni Mitchell has changed lyrics to

14:40

Hijera with whoever is playing saxophone with her.

14:42

Yeah. She'll say Michael Brecker or whoever, you

14:44

know, might be playing. She started it, I

14:46

think, with Michael Brecker. Yeah, I was listening

14:49

to a recording of Joan

14:51

Baez doing Diamonds and Rust recently,

14:53

and I was trying to

14:55

play for someone this thing that I'd heard her

14:57

doing a show. And then I discovered that it

15:00

wasn't in the original, that she had changed something

15:02

and she was doing it in performances, but

15:04

not... What are the lyrics that you changed?

15:06

The lyrics that she changed are, if you're

15:08

offering diamonds and rust, I've

15:10

already paid. I've already paid is the original

15:12

one. But when I saw her do it

15:14

more recently, she said, if

15:17

you're offering diamonds and rust, I'll take

15:19

the diamonds, which I thought was really

15:21

good. Very, very good. So

15:24

that's a change I could totally get behind.

15:27

Well, one of the things that I heard Joni

15:29

Mitchell say in one of her live recordings was

15:31

that when you're standing in front

15:33

of an audience and they ask you to

15:35

play a song, she thought it was sort

15:37

of interesting that nobody ever asked a painter

15:40

to repaint a painting. But

15:42

yet we're always asking performers to

15:44

redo these songs that are such a

15:46

part of our lives. Yeah. And she

15:48

jokes nobody ever asked Van Gogh to paint

15:51

a sunflower again. True.

15:54

That's true. So I know your

15:56

family also tried to get you to take piano

15:58

lessons and you weren't interested. either,

16:00

but there's a lot of piano

16:02

on your records and I've seen you

16:04

play piano. So when did that take

16:07

hold? Yeah, I don't really play the

16:09

piano enough to play

16:12

anything. I wish that I

16:14

had stuck with lessons. I know how many times

16:16

do you hear? I remember as a child all

16:18

the adults saying that they wish they had stayed

16:21

with piano lessons and I now am an adult

16:23

who wishes that. I quit

16:26

because I thought that my teacher didn't smell good.

16:29

That's a good reason. That's a really good reason. I thought

16:31

he smelled bad. I thought I did the therapy on my

16:33

thumb because of that and I really regret it. I

16:37

didn't just think he didn't smell good. I thought that

16:39

he smelled bad and I refused

16:41

to keep doing it and you know, that

16:43

wasn't the best decision I ever made. I

16:47

wish I had because I love the

16:49

piano and on my last record,

16:51

my most recent record, there's a lot

16:53

of piano and mostly the producer, my

16:56

friend Jordan, Hamlin, she played

16:58

most of it and I adore the

17:00

piano on recording. So I wish that

17:02

I had stuck with it more and

17:04

I've thought about taking lessons now as

17:06

an adult and it's on a list

17:08

of things I think I'm

17:10

doing in don't but maybe I will someday. You

17:13

wrote your first songs in high school but

17:16

you then gave up music and stated that the last

17:18

thing you wanted to do was get up on stage

17:20

and perform. Was that because of your

17:22

shyness or because of feeling sort of

17:24

your family vibe? Yeah, I

17:26

think in high school, I did

17:29

write my first songs. My first

17:31

song that I wrote was about babysitting. It

17:34

was about my kid that

17:36

I babysat for all through high school and then

17:38

he and his family moved away and I went

17:40

to college. It was about the

17:42

heartbreak of that. But in

17:44

high school, I got really interested in teaching

17:47

and I volunteered a lot in the lower

17:49

school classrooms at my high school and I

17:51

sort of was moving in that direction. I

17:54

think I'd been living in the soup

17:56

of the music thing for so long but I

17:59

walked towards college. college kind of dropping

18:01

all that behind me. And

18:03

when I was in college, I did a lot

18:05

of booking and like my brother came to play

18:07

and other people I was fans of came to

18:09

play and other family members came to play at

18:11

college and I booked them, but

18:13

I wasn't really interested in performing.

18:17

And then I think it kind of, towards

18:19

the end of college, I started to

18:21

notice the absence of that. You

18:24

attended Oberlin College in Ohio and

18:26

graduated with a degree in creative

18:28

writing. And then went

18:30

on to get a master's degree in

18:32

education from the Bank Street College of

18:34

Education in Manhattan. What made you

18:36

decide you wanted to become a teacher? I

18:39

always loved working with kids. I

18:42

really just always wanted to do

18:44

that. And to this day, I'm

18:46

torn about not doing it. There

18:49

was this wistful look in your eyes as

18:51

you said this. I

18:53

have read that you think there are

18:55

some similarities in terms of engagement with

18:57

an audience and with students,

19:00

but now especially being on the road as

19:02

much as you are on your own, it

19:05

must be hard to not

19:07

have that collective energy around.

19:09

Yeah, definitely. It's one

19:12

of the amazing things about being a

19:15

teacher is just the day

19:17

in and day outness of it and how

19:20

the sheer number of hours that you spend

19:22

with these people. And even though you're not

19:24

with their parents, it's a

19:26

very intimate thing dealing with people's

19:28

families and children and struggles

19:31

in school. And you're

19:33

a really big, present part of

19:35

people's everyday lives. And now I'm

19:38

not like that at all. I'm literally

19:41

passing through. That

19:45

is what my life is. So it's really

19:47

different in that way. We taught both

19:49

in Durham, North Carolina, and

19:52

New York City. How

19:54

different were those experiences? Well

19:56

in Durham, I didn't have my degree

19:59

yet. And I was teaching

20:02

mostly preschoolers, so

20:05

they were really little. And

20:07

three-year-olds, most of them are three, I feel

20:09

like three-year-olds are really interesting because they sort

20:11

of get what's going on and then they

20:13

also have this total

20:16

belief that anything could be

20:19

happening. They've been being told all these

20:21

weird things. You

20:23

grow inside of another human being. In

20:26

some cases, Santa Claus comes down the chimney. They're

20:28

all like, okay, sure. You

20:31

know, like they're just like... And they believe everything. Yeah,

20:34

and they've got it kind of figured out, but

20:36

then it's also kind of confusing.

20:40

So that was really fun. Then in

20:42

New York, I taught second grade and then third

20:44

grade, which is a whole other thing.

20:47

I love second and third grade. I

20:49

think it's a very industrious age.

20:53

People want to be doing stuff and

20:55

making books and creating their own thing.

20:58

One of the things I loved the most about that time

21:01

period was I got

21:03

really into telling stories with them. We

21:08

set out trying to write stories, but a lot of... Some

21:11

kids are really limited by the physical

21:13

demands of actually writing,

21:16

so we started doing storytelling instead, where

21:18

they would tell stories from their own lives

21:21

in front of the class. That

21:23

was a hoot and so

21:26

great. Also taking away the writing, the

21:28

actual physical writing of it meant that

21:30

they could get the story structure thing

21:32

sorted out without that in case that

21:34

was a stumbling block for them. I

21:37

love that. I miss that. Were you bringing

21:39

music into the classroom as well? Not

21:41

really. I was pretty shy. I

21:43

was really shy as a teacher. I think

21:45

I would be better teacher now because I

21:47

think after all these years of doing shows,

21:49

I'm less shy. The

21:52

only songs I taught them were the songs

21:54

that I was taught in elementary school. I

21:57

taught them the 50 Nifty United States song

21:59

on the list. the states

22:01

in Alabama, Alaska, Arizona,

22:04

Arkansas, California, Colorado, Connecticut.

22:08

And I remember on the first day when my teacher

22:10

taught us that, I just thought, I'll never be able

22:12

to learn that. And then you do. And

22:15

I remember on the first day in the second grade class,

22:17

me singing it for them and them being like, well,

22:20

we can't do that. But they totally, they all know

22:22

it. So I... And they

22:24

probably still do. They probably still do. And there

22:26

was a song about parallelograms that I learned in

22:29

elementary school that I taught them. Those

22:31

are the only songs that I taught them. What

22:34

made you decide to give up teaching

22:36

and join what the Wainwright family calls

22:38

the family business? I

22:41

in 2005, my brother, who

22:45

you might think isn't paying attention to

22:48

anyone else, he... That's

22:52

not true though about him. He kind

22:54

of has a covert eye on everybody

22:56

in a way you might not expect. And he

22:58

was like, I think you should come out on

23:00

the road with me this summer. And

23:04

I did. I went on his tour bus

23:06

and I sang back up with him. I

23:08

never spoke a word on stage. I was

23:10

painfully shy during all that. But it

23:13

was really fun. I mean, touring on a tour bus is

23:15

really fun and living in his life

23:17

for a minute is really fun. So

23:20

when I went back to teaching after that summer,

23:23

it had kind of gotten under my skin

23:25

a little bit. Like, but

23:27

I really like that world and I miss that

23:29

world. And I think I, after another year of

23:31

teaching, decided that if I was going to give

23:34

it a shot, I better just do

23:36

it. And thinking like, well, maybe I'll

23:38

come back to teaching. And so then after

23:40

that, next year I left. There

23:44

were some wonderful versions of you

23:46

and your brother singing Hallelujah on

23:48

YouTube, which are just gorgeous. Yeah,

23:50

that's what we sang. That's the first one

23:52

that we ever did together. Your

23:55

first gig, your first solo gig was opening

23:57

for your father in 2005. at

24:00

the Rockwood Music Hall in New York. What

24:03

was that like? It was really

24:05

bad. My first show was

24:07

so bad. Like, I was so bad. I

24:10

was super uncomfortable on

24:12

stage, not particularly

24:14

capable, and not

24:17

doing myself any favors. And

24:19

the second show was at the living room, which

24:22

also is closed, I think. And

24:25

that one was much

24:27

better because in that time, I

24:30

realized that the best strategy was just

24:32

to be myself.

24:35

That's a very fast learning curve. Well,

24:37

I think it was such a debacle

24:39

trying to like... Did you cry

24:41

on stage or? No, no, no. Your dad didn't

24:43

have to come get you. Yeah.

24:46

But I was crying on the inside and I

24:49

was behaving like a weirdo. Like I was, I

24:51

think I had watched so

24:53

many performances that I

24:55

think maybe I thought something else was

24:57

happening. But really people

25:01

are best when they're channeling their

25:03

real self. And once

25:05

I figured that out, it got a lot

25:07

better. That's not to say that the second

25:09

show was like fantastic, but it was less,

25:12

it felt better. When did

25:14

you start to feel comfortable, fully comfortable and

25:17

fully yourself on stage? Probably

25:19

within the first year of

25:21

doing shows. I

25:25

mean, there's nothing like

25:27

just doing 30 shows in a row to

25:30

kind of like get your act

25:32

together. Literally. Literally. Yeah. And

25:35

nothing else can do that except

25:37

for doing the shows. You

25:39

had to really want to do it though, if

25:41

that first experience was, as you put it, terrifying

25:44

and also terrible. Yeah,

25:46

I think I wanted to live the shape

25:50

of the lives of the people who

25:52

I grew up around. I

25:55

don't know if that was the best decision, but that's what I

25:57

wanted. Why? Well, I knew

25:59

full well. going into this that this was

26:01

not a, in most cases not

26:03

lucrative and in most cases not super

26:06

stable. I knew

26:09

all that. I

26:11

have no excuse for, I

26:14

didn't go into it blind at all, but

26:16

I definitely have come up against the reality

26:18

of that and feeling like, wow, what was

26:20

I thinking? You know, at the

26:23

same time, my whole

26:25

life is built around this now

26:27

and amazing things, I've gotten

26:30

to see amazing things that I never would

26:32

have seen, but at the same time, I

26:34

think one thing about it is when I

26:36

started out, all of my peers

26:38

were kind of starting out and they were

26:41

doing whatever job, usually not the job they

26:43

really wanted, but maybe working towards the job

26:45

they really wanted and I left

26:48

teaching and went out to do this

26:50

and everybody was sort of like, wow,

26:52

that's cool. And then 10 years later,

26:54

everybody's life has like really developed into

26:56

a much more kind of stable, you

26:59

know, they've ended up in a

27:01

certain spot and I'm doing

27:03

the same thing and it's a lot

27:05

less cool looking, you know? But you're

27:08

making music. That's true. You're living a

27:10

completely creative life. That's true. Your

27:12

first album was the eponymously

27:15

titled Lucy and was

27:17

released in 2010. And I

27:19

understand you and your mom were touring at

27:21

that point to raise money to make the

27:23

album. Did you self produce the entire thing?

27:26

My stepdad, Stuart Lerman, he produced

27:29

that first record and

27:32

my first couple of recordings, I made two

27:34

EPs and then that record and those recordings

27:36

were made really in the seat of the

27:38

family. So Stuart

27:41

produced them. I worked with him a lot one on

27:43

one. The roaches sang on that first record. I think

27:45

my dad also sang on that first record. So it

27:48

was very totally

27:50

insulated in the world of the family,

27:53

which the two records after that have been

27:55

really different in that way. Would

27:57

you do a song from that album? Sure. And

28:00

if you can also tell us a little

28:02

bit about the song you're going to sing. Your

28:05

songs are stories. Okay. This

28:07

song is

28:10

called, um, Open Season. I

28:12

wrote it after I took the F train out to

28:14

Coney Island one day in the winter. And

28:17

they happened to be taking down

28:20

Luna Park,

28:22

the old amusement park there.

28:27

Without any fanfare whatsoever, I just showed

28:29

up and they were removing this giant

28:31

rocket ship. I was like, well,

28:34

what's sort of poetic? I know on that one.

28:36

I was like, better get home and write a

28:38

song. This song is a song

28:40

that a lot of people request. It's

28:42

also a song that whenever I'm in

28:44

a relationship, people are like, I really like

28:47

that song, but it's about so-and-so, like the

28:49

person before or whatever. And I'm always like,

28:51

no, it isn't. So

28:53

that keeps getting said to me.

28:55

I don't know what to make

28:58

of that, but anyway. Good.

29:01

Okay. I'm

29:55

gonna last chance rocket ride. Over

30:00

the poor world Found

30:07

a noise No

30:10

one but me and

30:12

the neighbor boy We

30:15

all remember Where we

30:17

were when this went

30:20

down The

30:26

ocean calls us like we've never

30:28

been One

30:31

hundred games we will never

30:33

win Close

30:36

your eyes and near the teacup

30:38

stand As

30:40

it begins to snow And

30:45

if you're careful, that's not all you'll

30:48

hear The

30:50

mermaids watch us steal us to

30:52

the near And

30:55

whisper moral warnings in our

30:57

ears As

31:00

we are heading home My

31:07

love, my love Are

31:11

you gonna win just a beach

31:13

tonight? Waiting

31:15

on a last chance

31:17

rocket right Over

31:21

the boardwalk Found

31:26

a noise No one but me and the

31:29

neighbor boy We

31:33

all remember Where

31:36

we were when

31:38

this went down

31:45

So take a deeper breath let's hear

31:48

you sing And

31:50

reach your hand out for an

31:52

iron ring You'll

31:55

get another chance for lots

31:57

of things We

32:00

will be back again Cause

32:05

summer comes around on any

32:07

cloud I'll

32:10

wash with bathing suits and polka

32:12

dots We'll

32:14

ride the subways to their

32:16

final stop To

32:19

see the sea again Thank

32:28

you. That was beautiful. Lucy,

32:31

you've been described as a

32:33

master of musical melancholy. Would

32:36

you say that that is accurate? Well, I

32:38

mean, that's a nice compliment because I I

32:41

really like sad music

32:44

a lot. And

32:46

I don't

32:48

think I'll ever have the feeling towards

32:50

my songs that I have towards songs

32:52

that I love. Most

32:55

of the songs I love are really sad. And what

32:57

are some of your favorites? Oh

33:01

man, well there's a song

33:03

called Holy by Chris Perica that I love

33:05

so much that's so sad. I just listened

33:07

to it today. I can't listen to it

33:09

without crying and I really love it. Someone

33:12

like Patty Griffin has a lot of really sad

33:14

songs. You voted for her. What was that like

33:16

for you? It was great. I'm a big fan

33:18

and I don't know her well and I did

33:21

a few shows with her last year. It

33:24

was great. Her audience is great and I got

33:26

to watch her show every night and she's still

33:28

amazing and wonderful. So that was great.

33:31

I also love songs that maybe don't

33:33

sound that sad but strike me as

33:35

sad. Like the Paul Simon Crazy

33:37

Love on the album

33:39

Graceland, it's almost upbeat but it

33:42

breaks my heart that song. And I

33:44

really love to take upbeat

33:47

sounding songs and turn them

33:49

into what someone coined, sad snoozers.

33:52

Oh, I like Master of Musical, Mel and

33:54

Colleen Better. I saw that. I

33:56

wasn't even going to ask you about that. I

33:59

don't think that there's a better example of you doing

34:01

that than the song on your album

34:03

that you released in 2013. The

34:06

album is titled, There's a Last Time for

34:08

Everything, which features your really unusual

34:11

and brilliant cover of the Swedish

34:13

pop star Robbins, Call Your Girlfriend.

34:16

The original is a club beat

34:18

heavy pop dance anthem. And

34:21

the entire video of her doing it

34:24

is of her dancing in a gymnasium.

34:27

Such a great video. It is such

34:29

a great video. But you perform

34:31

it with a few chords on an

34:33

acoustic guitar in a small choir. I

34:37

was wondering if you would do that for

34:39

us as well, but also tell us about

34:41

why you decided to do that song.

34:43

What is it about that song? When

34:45

I was making that record, Jordan, the producer,

34:48

and I took a drive to see Nico

34:50

Case in Atlanta. We drove from Nashville to

34:52

Atlanta, kind of in the middle of making

34:54

the record. And we played that song, and

34:57

we both loved that song. And

34:59

about halfway through the song, we sort of both

35:01

looked at each other and thought, like,

35:03

could we possibly? And

35:06

we did. And I'm so

35:08

glad we did. I love that song

35:10

because it's so unusual. Like what she's

35:12

saying, the way that she's saying it,

35:15

is not something that I'd heard quite

35:17

that way before. I heard it described,

35:19

or I read it described, is a reverse Jolene,

35:22

which is by Delly Parton, which I think, yeah,

35:24

that's actually true. Yeah, totally. That's true.

35:27

Yeah. I just love it. And

35:29

then when we tried to do it, Slow Down, which

35:31

is my mode that I want to take every song

35:33

into, kind

35:35

of really worked. In fact, a lot of

35:37

people think it's my song. And then when

35:39

I tell them that it's a dance song,

35:42

they're just totally shocked. Because I think when

35:44

you hear it, Slow Down, it doesn't seem

35:46

like it would be a dance song at

35:48

all. In fact,

35:50

the other day, somebody came up to me at the

35:53

CD table and said, oh my

35:56

God, the other day I was in the store

35:58

and suddenly this... dance remix version of

36:01

your song, call your girlfriend, came on the

36:03

radio and I was like, oh my god,

36:05

she's gotten so big that they're remixing her

36:07

song, this dance song. And I was like,

36:09

not to worry, I haven't gotten

36:12

so big as that. That's the

36:14

original. I don't like Don Diner.

36:18

So I love that song and I'll

36:21

definitely do it for you if you want. Yes, please.

36:34

Call your girlfriend. It's

36:39

time you have the talk.

36:44

Give your reason.

36:50

Say it's not her

36:52

fault. But

36:56

you just

36:58

met somebody new.

37:05

Tell her to get her

37:07

face taken, she's

37:10

here and done. And

37:16

then when she gets

37:18

her face away, never

37:20

meant to hurt no one.

37:26

And you tell her that the only way

37:31

a red woman is one

37:34

she wants to

37:36

love again. And

37:38

it won't be a thing to

37:40

know, but she's still

37:43

a friend. And

37:46

then you let her down

37:48

easy. Call

37:54

your girlfriend. It's

37:59

time you have the talk.

38:01

Give your

38:05

reasons Say

38:10

it's not her fault

38:15

But you just

38:18

met somebody new

38:23

Don't you tell her I'll give

38:25

you something That you

38:28

never even knew you

38:31

missed Don't

38:34

you even try to sleep It's

38:37

a different way

38:40

again And you

38:44

tell her about the only

38:46

way All

38:49

I want is all

38:52

you will all

38:55

begin And it won't make

38:57

sense right now That you're

39:00

still a friend And

39:04

then you live it down

39:06

easily Call

39:12

your girlfriend

39:15

It's time

39:17

you had the

39:19

talk Give

39:22

your reasons

39:27

Say it's not her

39:29

fault But

39:35

you just met

39:37

somebody new And

39:43

now it's

39:46

gonna be me and you

39:51

And you tell her that

39:53

the only way A right

39:56

woman is when

39:59

she'll And

40:02

it won't make sense,

40:05

you know, that you're

40:07

still a friend. And

40:11

then you live it down

40:13

easy. Call

40:19

your girlfriend.

40:23

It's time you have

40:25

a war talk. Give

40:30

your reason.

40:34

Say it's not her

40:36

fault that

40:40

you just

40:42

met somebody new.

40:49

Call your girlfriend. It's

40:55

time you have a talk.

41:03

Thank you. Thank you for that. Lucy,

41:05

what made you decide to record this

41:08

album in Nashville? The last

41:10

two I did in Nashville. The

41:12

first one was in Jordan Brook

41:15

Hamlin's basement. We

41:17

did that in about a week. And then we

41:19

decided to make another record together. And at

41:22

this point, Jordan is working out of a studio

41:24

called Moxie. That is a

41:26

really beautiful, amazing place. We

41:28

took a lot longer to make this record. The

41:30

one before was very quick. This one

41:33

we made in chunks over like a

41:35

year and a half or so. Yeah,

41:38

it was a great experience. Does

41:40

location impact your songwriting? Yes,

41:43

there's a lot of place in a lot

41:45

of my songs. Probably because I spend a

41:47

lot of time driving around. So

41:49

there's a lot of sort of like wherever I

41:51

am seeps into the songs. Most

41:53

of these songs I wrote in

41:56

New York, some of them I finished in

41:59

Nashville. But the

42:01

beauty of the location of the place

42:03

where I made the record did play

42:05

into the recording. Because, for example, when

42:08

I did my vocal, she has this

42:10

recording room that faces the woods with

42:12

these big windows. And so you

42:15

do a take in the morning, and it's

42:17

beautiful. I do a take at sunset. You

42:19

know, it just was very pleasurable to sing.

42:22

And I think I sang in

42:25

a slightly different way. You know how when you

42:27

personally make a shift, it feels big to you?

42:29

Probably people who heard the record maybe didn't notice

42:32

that. But for me, there were a lot of

42:34

things about this record that were like a shift

42:36

for me. Your family

42:38

has famously written about each other. It

42:40

started with your father, one of his

42:43

songs written shortly after Rufus was born

42:45

is titled Rufus is a Pitman. He

42:48

also wrote about you several times. One song

42:50

he wrote with your aunt, Terry, after

42:52

you were born is titled Screaming

42:54

Issue, which is about your plaintive,

42:56

constant crying. He also wrote

42:58

I'd Rather Be Lonely about your sister Martha,

43:01

who countered with her own song to him,

43:03

Bloody Motherfucking Asshole, which I've actually seen

43:05

her perform live and it is just

43:07

a tour de force. Rufus

43:10

has written Lucy's Blue for You. Have

43:13

you written any songs about any members of your family?

43:15

I have. Largely,

43:18

I've stayed out of any controversy amongst

43:20

the family, in part because my writing

43:22

can be a bit vague sometimes. So

43:24

maybe they haven't noticed.

43:27

This record has a song that

43:29

is about my family on it as a

43:32

whole. You're talking about Little

43:34

Beasts, the new album? Yes. The

43:36

song is called The City. I wrote it on a

43:38

night where the whole family was together in New York.

43:42

I think it might have been my dad's record

43:44

release of his. I

43:46

was on tour with the Indigo Girls and I had

43:48

a night off and I had considered

43:50

flying home to be in this show that my brother

43:52

and my sister and my other sister who isn't a

43:55

performer was going to be in it and my mom

43:57

and my aunt and everybody was going to be in

43:59

it. And I decided

44:01

not to go and It

44:04

was a hard decision And so I

44:06

had a night off in Petoskey, Michigan on the Indigo Girls

44:08

tour and I sat in the hotel and I wrote The

44:11

city and that is about the

44:14

family business. I would say

44:16

it's interesting because the song

44:18

is about the pressure and uncertainty of

44:21

life as a touring musician and After

44:24

I listened to it I actually went to your website

44:26

to see your tour dates and it seems as if

44:28

you're on the road all the time It seems as

44:31

if you did 200 plus shows last year.

44:33

Yeah, I'm away a lot I'm trying to

44:35

shift that a little bit just for Sanities?

44:38

Yeah So

44:41

it's interesting because it was vague enough where

44:43

I really thought it was about your life

44:45

and not the life of your family Yeah,

44:47

yeah, it's it's it's sort of about the

44:49

the circus of the whole Situation

44:51

and and everybody's writing about each other

44:53

and and how People's

44:57

lives and relationships and pain seep into

44:59

the work that they do and Does

45:02

it ever bother you that there's so

45:04

much about your childhood and upbringing in

45:07

a lot of the songs of your

45:09

family? No

45:12

honestly, I I It's

45:15

hard for me to imagine what

45:17

my concept of my close family

45:19

members would be if you subtracted

45:22

the songs because I listen

45:25

to all those people's records and Usually

45:29

you don't have that kind of a window into

45:31

people's inner life or work

45:34

in that particular way and so it's

45:36

hard for me to say like imagine

45:38

my dad without knowing his work because

45:40

Talk so much about himself and his

45:42

work and so it's kind of valuable

45:44

information to have Yeah,

45:46

I think the only other thing that comes close

45:49

is Fleetwood Mac's rumors, which Everybody

45:51

loved to sort of read into was this

45:53

about Mick was about Lindsay was this about

45:55

Christine Was it about Stevie and Mick or

45:58

Phoebe and Lindsay and but yet? at

46:00

your life all the time. That was one

46:02

album in the 70s. Right. Well, we all

46:04

have, and everyone has their own, and this

46:06

is true about music with everyone, not just

46:08

the family, but everyone has their own relationship

46:10

to these songs. You like take them into

46:13

a private space and you experience them. So

46:15

I recently was in LA singing some backup

46:17

for a show that Rufus was recording for

46:19

Audible for our project. He's doing with them.

46:22

And we did one of my dad's songs,

46:24

Your Mother and I, which he wrote about

46:27

me when, or addressed to me when my

46:29

parents were splitting up. And

46:32

amongst the siblings, we haven't probably discussed a

46:34

lot of everyone's feelings about the songs, but

46:36

he chose the songs and he was going

46:38

to sing that song. And during rehearsal, he

46:41

started to sing it and he, and he just burst

46:44

into tears. We had to stop. And

46:46

it was interesting because we

46:49

just all are having our own emotional

46:52

reaction to everyone's work.

46:54

And it's private. It's also, you know, so you

46:56

might not know, like I wouldn't have thought that

46:58

would happen, but it's also a great

47:01

thing to be able to appreciate each other's work.

47:03

I think we're different

47:05

enough that we don't get in

47:07

each other's way, but we can

47:09

still collaborate, which is a nice

47:12

balance. I think your

47:14

third album, your most recent album

47:16

is titled Little Beasts. It

47:19

was released last October. I think

47:21

it is maybe your saddest,

47:24

but definitely your most

47:26

extraordinary album yet. I

47:29

think we really see your evolution as a singer and

47:31

a songwriter and a performer and the

47:34

confidence in your lyrics is just beautiful.

47:36

The song Quit With Me is

47:38

a duet with Matthew Parramin Jones. It's about

47:40

two people who love each other very much,

47:43

but must break up. The

47:45

tune, Fifth of July, looks back at how you

47:47

felt during and after the 2016 presidential

47:50

election. The

47:52

album is really quite extraordinary

47:55

and I believe it shows your brilliance in

47:57

a way that is really singing. in

48:01

Among the Wayne Wright Roaches. Congratulations on

48:03

this release. Thank you very much. What

48:06

made you decide to release this album on your own? I

48:10

have never worked with a record company. I

48:12

have always just called up

48:15

the printing plant in New Jersey and had the

48:17

records pressed and sold them. That

48:20

has been my business model. I

48:22

sort of live in this funny little

48:24

section of the music business that's still

48:27

alive where people buy records. I

48:30

think they buy them mostly so that you'll sign them

48:32

and you can talk while you sign them. I

48:35

don't know how many people put them into a

48:37

CD player, but

48:40

owning my own music has been

48:42

the key to staying afloat for

48:45

me. I was wondering

48:47

if you could do one last song for us

48:49

before you leave. My favorite song

48:51

on the album is titled Heroin, which

48:53

isn't exactly about what it sounds like.

48:56

It's a crafty little song. Can

48:58

you tell us about it and then play it for

49:00

us? Sure. I think this

49:02

whole record is probably the most personal record

49:04

that I've made. Part

49:06

of that is that I just decided

49:08

to lyrically, I wasn't

49:11

as constrained as I normally am. I let

49:13

myself say some things that I wouldn't normally

49:15

or I didn't kind of edit

49:17

things out that I might have shined away from before.

49:20

Any examples of what you're talking about?

49:25

I think the song Heroin is probably

49:27

one of my most personal songs. It's

49:30

completely autobiographical and

49:32

it's painful. I

49:35

didn't stop that from existing.

49:38

Again, it may not show up that way to

49:40

others, but to me it felt like I was

49:42

really... It was a vulnerable

49:44

thing for me. The whole record was kind

49:46

of like that, but definitely that song. I

49:50

love it when I hear that somebody connected

49:52

to that song because... I

49:55

mean I love it when I hear that anybody's connected to

49:57

any of the songs. It seems like a miracle and it's

49:59

such a great song. thing, but

50:01

that song meant a lot to me and so you

50:03

hope when you put them out in the world someone

50:06

will hear that or it will

50:08

mean something to someone. So yeah,

50:10

it very well may be my

50:12

favorite of your songs. So there

50:14

you have that. Let me see.

50:19

But yeah, this song has some place in it.

50:21

This has some driving

50:23

in it, some place in it. Have

50:28

you ever driven on the million

50:30

dollar highway in Colorado? Yes.

50:33

It's so scary. It's really scary. I've

50:36

driven cross-country and there

50:39

were moments on that road where I actually I

50:41

was driving with someone else and we were taking

50:43

turns so when one of us wasn't driving we'd

50:45

be sleeping and there was a moment where I

50:47

was like okay you have to wake up because

50:49

I can't do this by myself. Yeah, it's quite

50:51

harrowing and I like driving but it was just

50:55

a little bit too scary which I guess

50:57

is what the song

50:59

is about. Sometimes

51:10

I see your favorite

51:12

shot it's

51:16

when you want it but you

51:18

never got it it

51:23

was me but

51:26

not me I've

51:36

been busy counting

51:38

days the

51:42

season's stuck up but the

51:44

world remains and

51:48

that's about you but

51:52

not you And

52:01

some things that I want

52:04

to say aren't

52:07

survivable or

52:10

advisable Like

52:13

happy birthday heroin

52:15

but God, how

52:19

I loved you and

52:22

how I still do I

52:40

could have wronged with

52:42

you another round Thousands

52:46

of feet above the

52:48

ocean's ground After

52:53

the dark, an eastern

52:56

song, another one

53:05

What had it been more

53:07

of the very same? I

53:13

think hairpin turns from the

53:15

outside lean How

53:19

beauty feels, I've

53:21

never done the worst

53:24

is one The

53:32

sun drives are then

53:35

due to take, aren't

53:37

survivable or advisable

53:44

It's a million dollar

53:46

highway on a snowy

53:48

day It's

53:50

how I had to leave, it's

53:53

how I long to stay

53:58

Some things That I want to say aren't over. I.

54:06

Hope. They.

54:11

See. How.

54:19

He. Has.

54:35

A didn't come. To

54:37

say this. But actually I've gotten some letters

54:39

from people who are really concerned that I

54:42

have a heroin addiction thing which is actually

54:44

not a specific. I feel I feel as

54:46

if he really was another song. It doesn't

54:48

seem like that. The. People

54:51

are worried. Well I mean it is. It

54:53

does say the word heroin and it's Trump's

54:55

or lord that the same thing he the

54:57

other. she was not talking about it at

54:59

all. The Es Salaam and then those that

55:02

did didn't to the a threat. you think

55:04

that a lot of people know that on

55:06

the needle in the damage done is a

55:08

song about heroin and Neil Young struggle with

55:10

it. Yeah, probably not an said live Now

55:12

that I guess that's the mystery of understanding,

55:14

but I was. I mean, I was concerned

55:17

enough to go and look at the lyrics.

55:19

Yeah, yeah, not not because I was worried,

55:21

but just because I wanted to know the

55:23

history of the song. Sure and Miller understand

55:25

what you're talking. Yeah, but my my friend.

55:28

Said. To me. That sentence

55:30

he said it's like saying happy

55:32

Birthday heroin like if you like

55:34

getting. You

55:36

know, going back into something he should stay away from.

55:39

So she said that and then I was like. To.

55:41

Write. Some

55:44

so I have lot of problems, but that's

55:46

not what happens to be. Not one

55:48

woman and it's total

55:50

for making political Were

55:52

done Said. with

55:56

a friend of more. Wayne

56:01

Long Road. For

56:05

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56:07

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56:09

Remember we can have me to either

56:11

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56:19

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56:21

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