0:01

Ted Audio Collective. Welcome

0:11

to The Ted Interview. I'm your

0:13

host, Stephen Johnson. Looking

0:16

back on this season of the show,

0:18

we've gone deep into the creative process

0:21

of one of today's greatest novelists. My

0:24

conscious ideas are not good enough, frankly.

0:26

They're not original. So I've

0:28

got to get out from under those and

0:31

get to something that surprises even me. We've

0:34

explored what understanding the deep cosmos tells

0:36

us about the condition of our humanity.

0:39

We can't actually predict where these

0:41

ideas are going to come from.

0:43

And in some sense, the

0:45

interesting scientific questions that come up

0:47

come up through conflict. And

0:50

we've dreamed of a future world without

0:52

pandemics. If we start

0:54

thinking differently about how we're monitoring

0:56

the animal health, the environmental health, and

0:59

other issues, we could start getting to

1:01

predicting and preventing these outbreaks

1:03

without any human disease. And that's

1:06

when it gets really exciting. But

1:08

for our last episode of this season, we have

1:10

something really special for you. One

1:13

of the most original and influential artists of

1:15

the past 50 years, David Byrne. David

1:20

Byrne is probably best known for being a

1:22

founding member of the Talking Heads, but

1:24

he's had an equally full solo career,

1:27

including collaborations with the likes of Brian

1:29

Eno and St. Vincent. His

1:31

work has been staged on Broadway with

1:33

the show American Utopia, and he's scored

1:35

film for features like The Last Emperor.

1:38

He's written the terrific book How Music Works, which

1:40

we're going to talk about today quite a

1:42

bit. One of his latest creations

1:44

is an immersive theater experience in Denver called Theater

1:47

of the Mind. David

1:50

is the perfect guest to wrap up

1:52

a season that has taken us to

1:54

so many different domains, in part because

1:56

he's someone who has really refused to

1:58

settle into just one creative field. And

2:01

he's truly one of the great collaborators

2:03

in modern culture. That's

2:05

next on The Ted Interview. David

2:20

Byrne, welcome to The Ted Interview. Thank

2:23

you. Thank you for inviting me to do this.

2:26

I've been just rereading your book, How

2:28

Music Works. And you tell

2:30

a story about the early days of the

2:32

Talking Heads in New York, where you talk

2:34

about this kind of subtractive

2:36

approach to coming up with the

2:39

sound and the style and

2:41

the presentation of the band. And just

2:43

quoting from it, you say, it was a performance style

2:45

defined by negatives. No show-offy solos,

2:47

no rock moves or poses, no pomp

2:50

and drama, no rock hair. It

2:52

was mathematics. When you subtract all that

2:54

unwanted stuff from something, art or music, what

2:57

do you have left? And I

2:59

thought that was just a fascinating way to think about

3:01

creativity, like what can you remove to make something more

3:04

interesting? Is

3:06

that an approach that you've tried at other points

3:08

in your career or was it somehow uniquely suited

3:10

to the early days of Talking Heads? I'm

3:14

sure I've tried it in other areas as well. The

3:16

idea is that don't adopt

3:19

any received or existing ways

3:21

of doing something or ways

3:23

of presenting something or executing

3:25

something because that won't necessarily

3:27

be yours. Not

3:30

that one has to completely reinvent the wheel

3:32

all the time. I find

3:35

it's often really good to

3:37

strip something down and go, okay, let's

3:40

start with the things that feel

3:43

like the basic things that

3:45

you can feel comfortable with. And

3:49

it doesn't stay that way. With

3:51

music, various things got added back in,

3:54

but only when I discovered a way

3:56

to do it that felt like

3:59

it was an issue. integral and authentic

4:01

to myself. There

4:05

was a period where I didn't really

4:07

move around much on stage and then eventually,

4:10

little by little, I found like, oh, there's

4:12

ways of moving that feel integral to me

4:15

that don't look like I'm

4:18

just imitating some rock stars that I've

4:20

seen before. Staying with those

4:22

early days of the talking

4:24

heads at CBGBs and other venues

4:26

in downtown Manhattan, when

4:29

people saw this kind of

4:31

stripped down performance style that

4:34

was missing all of those ingredients, was

4:37

it confusing for those audiences? Were they like,

4:39

well, where's the rock hair and where are

4:41

the solos? Or was that world

4:43

already so open to new ideas that

4:45

they immediately found a place

4:47

for it? The

4:50

downtown New York world was and

4:52

is, well, what's left

4:54

of it, a very small world.

4:57

But yes, it was very accepting.

5:00

And it was very accepting across

5:03

the disciplines. You had

5:05

a lot of artists coming to CBGBs

5:07

to see various bands, which

5:11

was kind of interesting. And

5:15

they were artists that we admired and we thought were

5:17

kind of influential or

5:19

we admired them or thought

5:21

highly of them. They were

5:23

all very accepting. It's like, here's somebody who's

5:25

doing something that's a little bit different. CBGBs

5:28

is right at the beginning of how

5:31

music works. You talk about

5:33

the physical space of that room. I

5:36

saw some shows there before they closed it down

5:38

in the early 90s when I first arrived in

5:40

New York. And it was a really interesting

5:42

space. And you have a wonderful riff

5:44

about just how music is

5:47

in a way that kind of non-musicians may

5:49

not realize is often crafted for the kinds

5:51

of rooms that it is being performed in.

5:54

And you talk a little bit about how the

5:56

early days talking heads were shaped by the physical

5:58

environment of CBGB. There's

6:00

been this interesting architectural element

6:03

that runs through your work, and now you have

6:05

a new project that is very

6:07

much about moving through physical

6:10

space, Theater of the Mind.

6:13

Can you tell us a little bit about that? The

6:15

Theater of the Mind project, which is running

6:17

in Denver, it's an immersive

6:20

theater project that's based on a

6:23

lot of neuroscience experiments

6:25

and perceptual phenomena. We

6:28

started with those as a basis, and

6:31

then eventually we added

6:34

a story that takes

6:36

you through from one experience to

6:38

another. So there's a reason why you're

6:40

going through. And the

6:42

physical structure is it's in a

6:44

warehouse that's been divided

6:46

into seven rooms. And

6:49

an audience, a 16-member audience

6:51

goes into the first room, they're met by

6:53

a guide, that guide, an actor, takes

6:56

them through all the rest

6:58

of the rooms. And

7:00

15 minutes later, another group of 16

7:03

comes into the first room, is met by another actor.

7:06

And that goes on all day. And the

7:08

actor plays a person who is telling

7:11

you about their life and things that happen to

7:13

their life that they may be, their

7:17

perception of it or their memory

7:19

of certain things is a

7:22

little bit different than they thought they were. And

7:25

so they take you back to those places in

7:27

their life, the rooms where something

7:29

happened, whether it was the family kitchen

7:31

or the backyard or a disco

7:34

where the person was a DJ. And

7:36

you see how their perception of things

7:38

is very malleable and

7:41

not entirely accurate. And

7:45

is it based on your own life? Yes

7:50

and no. There's a couple of things

7:52

that I borrowed from my own

7:55

life to help with the

7:57

story. The guide's name is David. we

8:00

use childhood picture of me as

8:03

a childhood picture of the character. But

8:05

other than that, I was never a

8:07

DJ. The other bits of the story

8:09

that happened, they're

8:11

just completely made up. But of course,

8:14

people tend to think that it's me

8:16

being autobiographical. And it

8:19

probably doesn't hurt if they think that. And

8:23

tell me about the neuroscience side of

8:25

it. So how is that integrated into

8:27

the project? A

8:30

lot of it is perceptual phenomena, how

8:32

we perceive and scale the

8:34

world, how we hear things. We

8:37

don't hear all hear things the same. We don't

8:39

see things the same. How we

8:41

perceive things changes based on context, attention.

8:45

We prioritize motion

8:48

over static things.

8:50

In fact, static things can just

8:52

completely disappear from our view. They're

8:55

just not there. All those sorts of

8:57

things. They're not like cutting edge

9:00

things. But when you put them all together, they

9:03

add up to a way

9:06

of how

9:09

we build our identity out

9:11

of our memories of these events and

9:13

how we perceive things. And you realize

9:15

that our identities are therefore not

9:18

entirely accurate either. So

9:22

fascinating. Well, thinking about other kinds of

9:25

theater experiences that you've been involved with,

9:28

you've just come off this incredible run

9:30

with American Utopia. And I was

9:33

watching the Spike Lee film version that you

9:35

did over the weekend. And I think because

9:37

I had just reread How Music Works, I

9:39

was really paying attention to the choreography, because

9:41

you've written about that a little bit in

9:44

that book. And there's a

9:46

great story in How Music Works

9:48

about this kind of emergent algorithmic

9:52

dance choreography strategy that

9:54

I think Naomi LaFrance introduced.

9:57

And I was curious like, you

9:59

know, So what was the process for coming up

10:01

with the moves for American

10:04

Utopia? To begin with,

10:07

for that tour and that Broadway show,

10:09

we figured out

10:11

a way to have all the musicians,

10:14

every one of them, be completely wireless. So

10:17

no one was fixed on stage, not the

10:20

drummers or the keyboard player, people who

10:22

were usually kind of stuck in

10:24

one spot. They could all move

10:26

around. That meant that the

10:28

drumming had to be dispersed amongst six players

10:31

because one person can't be carrying a drum

10:33

kit. But it worked.

10:35

So that meant, okay, now

10:38

we have this completely stripped

10:41

down empty playing field in

10:45

which the musicians can act on, which

10:47

is kind of a dream come true

10:49

for a choreographer. You're

10:51

now talking about not just

10:53

some dancers dancing in front of

10:55

the band or something like that,

10:58

but everybody participates. So

11:01

we worked with a choreographer, N.E.B. Parson,

11:03

and I've worked with her before.

11:08

She is very good at teaching

11:11

people kind of

11:13

choreography that she has developed

11:15

that is within their means

11:17

to perform, but also working

11:20

with non-dancers to

11:22

turn their own movement into

11:25

a kind of choreography. And

11:27

that's what I'm used to doing that for

11:30

years and years now, where I realized

11:33

that this music or something makes me

11:35

want to move this way. So you

11:37

kind of formalize that. And okay, when

11:39

that happens, then

11:42

you should move that way. And

11:45

so it's almost as if the music is telling

11:47

you what way to move. And

11:50

I find that works pretty well. You

11:52

just have to take notes on it, either

11:55

by videotape or some other means. To

11:59

me, it worked really well. Yeah, I would

12:01

say so. And how would you describe your

12:04

own movement style? Well,

12:07

it's a little bit stiff, maybe a little

12:09

bit odd and

12:11

maybe jerky. I don't

12:13

think I've ever tried to move like someone else.

12:17

I've developed a kind of vocabulary of my own.

12:22

It's not obviously

12:24

sexy or anything like that in a

12:27

kind of conventional way. I've worked something

12:29

out that works for me. It's

12:32

hard to think of an artist over

12:35

the last few decades who has had

12:37

such a wide range of collaborations with

12:39

such an eclectic mix of people. So

12:42

it seems pretty clear from the outside at

12:45

least that this is one of your gifts,

12:47

right? You're an incredibly gifted songwriter and performer,

12:49

but you also seem to have a

12:51

talent as a collaborator. And I'm curious, you

12:54

know, what goes into that skill. I'm

12:57

very curious how other people work, how

13:00

they see things. And you collaborate with them.

13:02

You kind of find that out. You find

13:04

out what their creative process is and how

13:06

they work. And so you kind of learn

13:08

a little bit more about how

13:10

to do things than the rut that you kind of

13:12

tend to get into. I

13:15

also find laying out the parameters for

13:17

the collaboration is pretty

13:19

important right off the bat. And

13:21

you say, okay, I'm going to do

13:23

this. I

13:26

have my little area that I'm working

13:29

in, whether it's like I'm

13:32

writing the lyrics and singing and you're doing the

13:34

music or something like that, or someone

13:37

on co-writing the script to the theater

13:39

of the mind. But then,

13:42

as with all theater projects, the

13:44

director has input. But the rules are

13:47

very clear in the theater. The director

13:49

cannot write the script. Only the writers

13:51

can make the changes,

13:53

but the director can make suggestions. It's

13:56

a really smart way of drawing borders.

14:00

and making that really clear. Because

14:03

when it works, the director, let's say,

14:05

can make suggestions, but

14:08

they're not binding. And

14:10

so the writer kind of feels

14:12

a little bit of freedom to try

14:15

those suggestions. Knowing that

14:18

if they don't work, or if the writer doesn't like

14:20

them, they can reject them and go back to the

14:22

way it was. I sometimes

14:25

enjoy working with other musicians,

14:29

especially if they can tell me pretty

14:31

clearly what it is they're after. You

14:34

know, if people are really vague, it

14:36

makes it very, very hard. But

14:39

if they can, even a little bit, that

14:41

really, really helps. One

14:43

of the things that you've written about, and

14:45

it's been such an interesting part of your

14:47

career, is the

14:50

relationship between new technologies and the

14:52

form and the content of music.

14:54

There's some great chapters in

14:56

How Music Works, where you talk about that. And this

14:58

was, in some cases, material that I

15:01

was familiar with, because I've

15:03

written about that as well, but there were a number of

15:05

things that I had not heard before that just blew me

15:07

away. One of them is the

15:09

way kind of club music in the

15:12

70s and early 80s was transformed by

15:15

the introduction of these 12-inch

15:17

vinyl singles. Because

15:19

of the size of the

15:21

groove, the actual physical groove

15:24

on the records changed the kind of music

15:26

that you could produce in those venues. Can

15:28

you explain that history? So a vinyl record

15:31

has a groove etched into it by

15:33

a thing called a cutting

15:35

lathe. And there's

15:38

a little needle that vibrates as

15:40

it's cutting this groove into the

15:42

record. And it's a groove. It's

15:44

a spiral. It's a very,

15:46

very long spiral that goes around and around and around

15:48

and around until it gets to the middle of the

15:50

record. And

15:53

then when you put your player, your

15:55

needle down on it, It

15:58

responds to those little needles. The vibrations

16:00

or the little. Changes

16:04

in the groove and that

16:06

needle vibrates and then that

16:08

translated into the music. This

16:10

is the to hear that

16:12

amplified and all that. Ah,

16:15

so. Bass. Frequencies.

16:18

Her lower frequencies. Take.

16:20

Up. More of the vibration of

16:22

the needle. And the cutting

16:24

and in the groove then do high

16:27

frequencies. So. For example,

16:30

When. Very early records

16:32

and cylinders and things like

16:34

that were recording jazz groups.

16:38

To lower instruments like the bass

16:40

drum and know. The. To burn

16:43

things like that at were in those

16:45

groups. Basically. They.

16:48

They couldn't handle it. It would make thick

16:50

the needle the playback meet on your player

16:52

jump right out of the groove because it

16:55

was a burger. Chains

16:57

in the Groove so they will actually change the

16:59

music. They would say okay you have to step

17:01

to the back. We were going to make the

17:03

bass drum. And. Them of

17:05

the base, quieter and this

17:07

music than what it really

17:09

is. but. When.

17:12

Know D J's another started coming

17:14

up with these twelve inch mixes

17:16

what were called province mixes. They

17:18

would take basically a single. May.

17:20

Be slightly extended single and

17:22

play that over. A

17:24

disc the size of a whole L

17:27

P A twelve inch discs which meant

17:29

that the grooves could be wider and

17:31

further apart. So. The whole

17:33

record could be louder. And. Based

17:35

the low end the base could be

17:38

more prominent. see you got suddenly this

17:40

club music where the the base was

17:42

really kind of kicking and the kick

17:44

drum and all that and that became

17:46

much more of a thing and then

17:48

of course them when when digital recordings

17:50

came in there was no limit to

17:52

how what you could do with the

17:54

base. The other thing

17:57

that I thought in terms of music

17:59

technology. That was so striking.

18:02

It and I'm sure somebody is run the

18:04

whole book on this, but I never really

18:06

thought about it. is how it's revolutionary. A

18:09

sets were audio cassettes and this is the

18:11

technology has really gone and me my kids

18:13

do not know what I taped is that

18:15

looks like at all and I know what

18:18

a vinyl record looks like. but it's assets

18:20

were a huge you know kind of icon

18:22

of my childhood. but. In. A

18:24

you describe a number of the things that

18:26

said cassettes made possible. There were really in

18:29

in a sense the time, a glimpse of

18:31

what was coming with digital music for very

18:33

much so. Yeah, Focus. as were arms very

18:35

tiny reel to reel tapes that you didn't

18:37

have to sauce with to just pop the

18:40

thing and to the player and. You're.

18:42

Good to go. You don't have like

18:44

wind the tape around right reels or

18:46

anything like that. But what was really

18:49

special about this and what's really scared

18:51

the record industry? Was. That not

18:53

only could you play music on the to set,

18:55

you could record it yourself. And.

18:58

You know people came out with boom boxes

19:00

and thing said you could record music off

19:02

the radio which which I did have I

19:04

heard something I love that would just press

19:06

record and co what is that and I

19:09

would go out often and by that record

19:11

it was actually. Helping

19:13

us discover more music. But

19:16

then you yang you had. People.

19:18

Like me and many others.

19:20

Ah making looks. So

19:23

what would now be called Playlists. Them.

19:26

Ah, the time was limited. I think

19:28

he could get a intact minutes i'm

19:30

gonna cassette. He put the songs that

19:33

kind of and fit a particular mood

19:35

like a bunch of songs for dancing

19:37

or songs for kind of late at

19:39

night or songs that you would send

19:41

to a special someone as a kind

19:44

of message about this is what I

19:46

love. I hope you like it

19:48

to that kind of thing and then it

19:50

makes the walkman possible to raise the then

19:52

you have that kind of person all always

19:55

on ambient kind of sound follow you around

19:57

because you've got this. You couldn't do that.

19:59

You can. Carry around a vinyl record player.

20:02

And Sony came out with those

20:04

the walkman which was co. The.

20:07

Analog. Precursor. To

20:09

the ipod? Yeah, and so

20:11

you had your own private

20:14

music experience. Something. The people

20:16

are. Really use to now,

20:18

but then. Music. Was always

20:20

a public thing. It. Was playing

20:22

either on a boombox or over a

20:24

stereo and a car or whatever. it

20:26

was. Always kind of. Broadcast.

20:28

In public and now became private

20:31

which is a. Very.

20:34

Different way of perceiving

20:36

and consuming music. There's

20:40

also can have a history hear about the

20:42

early days of sampling which. You.

20:44

Are involved with I'm in the collaboration with

20:46

with Brian Eno my life in the Bushes

20:48

Ghosts like a voice of the sorry I

20:50

read about the story. One of my bucks

20:52

for a know can have moved to New

20:55

York at his use to Bbc Radio at

20:57

the No Radio One and radio too and

20:59

he turns on the radio a New York

21:01

and their these there's a crazy person like

21:03

kind of ranting on the radio and he

21:05

thinks oh my gosh this is very unusual

21:07

there's a crazy person reading on the radio.

21:09

I must record this voice and that it's

21:11

believes there for a little longer and realizes

21:13

that the radio to filled. With crazy people

21:15

renting a set of study, I said

21:17

it's add some of those kind of

21:20

that sound audio that you both collected

21:22

in that period becomes kind of interlaced

21:24

into into that record which is one

21:26

of the points of origin for for

21:29

sampling. What I didn't know was that.

21:32

Those. That. Kind of preacher

21:34

style that is and a lot

21:36

of those in a lot of

21:38

that record influenced your own. vocals

21:40

are on once in a lifetime.

21:42

Oh absolutely. I mean I'm I

21:44

would listen to some the radio

21:46

preachers who are renting the good

21:48

Ones are very musical. Fits.

21:50

Ah, It's. Like it's kind

21:52

of poetry that really isn't

21:54

some space between kind of

21:56

text and music. Their voices

21:58

very repair it is. It.

22:01

Has a cadence, The

22:03

it's very musical satellite yeah, I realized

22:05

it for I could. Imagine.

22:07

Myself as a preacher and I

22:09

just in my last and glory

22:12

side and especially start ranting on

22:14

my own. And. Pretending kind of

22:16

acting that out. where would that go? So

22:18

I started doing that and and kind of

22:20

writing down all the phrases it came

22:22

to me and and. Yeah,

22:25

that became the. versus.

22:27

Of that song. I.

22:29

Did a conversation years ago with you know

22:31

where he talked about this practice of maybe

22:33

he originated with with You and the City

22:35

with the Talking Heads? I don't know, but

22:37

in his later kind of career as a

22:39

producer with you Two are Coldplay or whatever.

22:41

it's when the band comes into the studio.

22:44

And I've just come off their tour and

22:46

they've been playing the same songs over and

22:48

over again. He does this routine where he

22:51

has them all played different instruments for it's

22:53

like okay Bano, you're playing the drums thou

22:55

and he says the ads yes diplomacy Words

22:58

that are his argument about it is that

23:00

as they sound much worse and an empirical

23:02

way they that Obama was not a good

23:04

drama or whatever it happens to be. But

23:07

there's something about that experience of playing an

23:09

instrument that you're not a virtuoso at arms

23:11

that kind of liberates the ban to make

23:14

a new sound. And and I always

23:16

thought that was a great kind of lesson.

23:18

like even if you are an incredible guitarist,

23:20

like carve out time to play the drums

23:22

badly. Just. To explore the kind

23:24

of possibilities face. And that and the

23:26

studios. that's That's the thing that that you've

23:29

ton. Yeah, we are. We did. We've

23:31

done that, we've done with it, you

23:33

know, and with other people as well. I'm.

23:36

Obviously you don't actually want something

23:38

the some bad. Ah so

23:40

if the drumming is really bad that's

23:43

sort of not gonna work so well

23:45

as you can sometimes do is like

23:47

five whoever pay place a keyboard part.

23:51

I'll try and come up with a keyboard part.

23:53

It's within my abilities. Ah,

23:55

That I can do it might be very a

23:57

very limited and simple part, but it'll be. But

24:01

I can play that well. Same. Things

24:03

with say if he were player bits of Qatar

24:05

with the can probably figure out how to play

24:07

something. Something. Relatively simple.

24:10

And. Yeah the the good thing is

24:12

sometimes you'll come up with things that a keyboard

24:14

player or guitar player would not come up with

24:17

and him since. You're. Tired

24:28

of unnecessary. Pay rural areas

24:30

and the problem. Say brain

24:32

like employees missing bills but

24:35

as if sorted paychecks, managers

24:37

taking seats. I'm angry employees

24:39

about those sorted h at

24:41

a time. Payroll teens clucking

24:43

late hours to quit time,

24:46

seats, expense mistakes, missing overtime

24:48

and six days our that

24:50

is so unnecessary Something breaks

24:52

and payroll errors for dead

24:54

by putting employees in the

24:57

driver's seat with pay. Times

24:59

Betty employees do. Their own

25:01

Tehran. Said he identifies errors and

25:03

guides employees to fix them before his

25:05

sickness and right in the end, but

25:07

has no one could afford for payroll

25:09

to be wrong and no one knows

25:12

when their pay is. Wrong or

25:14

right? Better than employees. The

25:16

Line: Like ten Six zero

25:18

problems before the. The. Some problems:

25:20

you get payroll preseason every.

25:23

Time Unnecessary Payroll.

25:25

Hassle but some well unnecessary panics.

25:27

The process to make a the

25:29

right for everyone with take. Learn

25:33

more and pay com/found

25:35

that stay calm down

25:37

to business. Are

25:44

there any new? Technologies.

25:46

In the in the studio and

25:48

in the music world. Right now

25:50

that you're particularly interested in New

25:52

Boy Chronic instruments, a new techniques,

25:54

Anything that is potentially as as

25:56

interesting as as early synthesizers or

25:58

the cassette tape. Ah,

26:01

there's all sorts of things, lists

26:03

sort of programs and software. and.

26:05

Things. To come out. I haven't used

26:08

them but there's this. Have these

26:10

vocal eliminator of. Texas.

26:12

Algorithms are software that.

26:15

Was. Stripped. Of. Voice or of

26:17

the song which allows a someone doing

26:20

who wants to be sampling the song

26:22

to kind of grab a piece of

26:24

the music without having the voice and

26:26

and as other ones where they can

26:29

take an instrument that were already recorded.

26:32

And change the chord structure of it. I

26:34

mean those things are easier to me or

26:36

just amazing there. I mean that they the

26:38

first one. Allows. People

26:41

to sample: Music

26:43

that they wouldn't otherwise be able to sample.

26:45

But it's not like this. Been a shortage

26:47

of things to sample? Ah, It'll

26:49

just kind of open that up even further. The i

26:52

mean I. Use a curve

26:54

computer to record a lot of things,

26:56

but. I find

26:58

it My initial writing takes

27:01

place. Just. With can a

27:03

pen and pencil and and an instrument. It's

27:06

often starts that way because.

27:09

The software. Tends.

27:11

To be lead you. To

27:13

make music that is easy to make

27:15

with that software. right?

27:18

At such as no support, no surprise.

27:21

Ah! So. If it

27:23

makes everything and a for for rhythm. That

27:25

is very repetitive. Well that's

27:28

kind of where your lead.

27:31

And if you want to do something a little

27:33

bit. Outside of the box

27:35

or little bit different than that. It

27:37

It's a little bit more work so you might

27:40

not do it. But if you kind of

27:42

do that ahead of time, And. Know that

27:44

that's what you want to do some

27:46

that you've kind of fire escape the

27:48

software trap. Yeah, you have

27:51

a great point about that in the book. About. That.

27:53

That kind of the tyranny of a click

27:55

track. that yet, you know it really does

27:57

if you're working with digital audio to. There

28:00

really is a lot easier if it

28:02

is recorded to a very rigorous like

28:04

click track where it's a certain number

28:06

beats per minute and that way you

28:08

can cut move things around really is

28:10

late but it's years and locked him

28:12

this very mechanical rhythm that you can

28:14

and change the music that you make.

28:16

yes it does in and you can.

28:19

You. Can hear it in. Old

28:21

recordings it didn't have with the cracks

28:23

the is the ban will come. speed

28:25

up the group will come a speed

28:27

up with they'll slow down. Just

28:30

before I change happens or something

28:32

like that, it's almost imperceptible, but

28:35

it has kind of that that

28:37

has an emotional effect. David.

28:40

You find that these new

28:42

technologies as they come about

28:44

are they changing your actual

28:46

creative process? They must be

28:48

So I can says it. They must be that

28:50

are. We.

28:53

Even without realizing it, I think

28:55

we respond to. The

28:59

context around us whether

29:01

it be economic or

29:03

technological or architectural or.

29:07

Social or whatever it is. So.

29:11

Yes, If this. Technology

29:13

of music distribution is different.

29:16

I I can't help but

29:18

think that people's slowly and

29:20

incrementally start making. Different

29:23

kinds of music. This. At least

29:25

say a Hope worked better in

29:27

that format on that platform. From.

29:32

I know. With. Streaming set

29:34

up as I don't think so

29:36

much now, but there was a

29:38

period where artists were making records

29:40

with like. Thirty. Trachsel.

29:43

Ah assess because that would

29:45

get the more kind of

29:47

streaming points. They.

29:51

Were kind of date trying to game the. The.

29:53

Algorithm. And.

29:57

I think eventually. You know

29:59

as the. The train platform

30:01

said oh no no no no no, we're

30:03

not gonna let you get away with this.

30:05

But yeah, okay. There.

30:09

Is also a least don't streaming. I'm

30:12

a lot of artists have said that.

30:14

Pick. And and listeners of said that. Of

30:18

the song really has to grab your attention

30:20

when in the first fifteen seconds. Or

30:22

otherwise it's just easier to skip to the

30:25

next one. would you wouldn't do was to

30:27

put on a record or some other kind

30:29

of thing You it will be a little

30:31

bit of extra effort to move to move

30:34

to the next song. Ah. So.

30:36

You have people writing songs it kind

30:38

of intensely try to come but the

30:40

hook been the most kind of touchy

30:42

part right at the beginning. Lot.

30:45

Of Pink Floyd songs would not have

30:47

done well. Nope. No. Can and

30:49

cannot of arm Exactly. Yes. Ssssss. What

30:52

is your general sense of the overall

30:54

music ecosystem right now? Which is you

30:56

know, saved by technology and buy digital

30:59

distribution and streaming and all that stuff?

31:01

Do you feel like. We're.

31:04

At a particularly healthy point in

31:06

terms of musical careers. and the

31:08

Krishna music or was there a

31:10

golden age. That. We've left

31:12

behind. Ah,

31:16

It seems to me that now there is.

31:20

Just. As much creativity is ever, there's

31:22

in an incredible amount of. Ah,

31:26

Interesting and create abusive being made

31:28

by artists all over the world.

31:31

That's. Really exciting but at

31:33

the same time I think

31:35

is some ways it's harder.

31:38

For. Can emerging musicians to

31:40

get noticed? Partly

31:43

because there's so many of them now. And

31:45

mates easier to record music than it

31:47

was before. so this just a lot

31:49

of it. Yeah, the field is very

31:51

crowded. And.

31:54

Unless you are called the

31:56

handful of really, really successful

31:58

artists, it's. The hard to make a

32:01

living doing it. I think

32:03

it's harder to make a living doing

32:05

it then it was before that said

32:07

that You know positions can be pretty

32:09

creative about how they do that to.

32:12

Get. Seems like it's unless you really want to. Play

32:15

live shows all the time. It's heart

32:17

bit harder to make a living as

32:19

a as a musician just releasing albums.

32:22

And and nothing on the road constantly I would

32:24

say sir, yes, it's hard to hit hard to

32:26

make a living doing that. Unless

32:29

you become really successful or your

32:31

writing songs for pop artists are

32:33

all these other things the or

32:36

you know, writing songs for commercials

32:38

are. Scores. For T V

32:40

or whatever it might be. Ah, But.

32:43

Just kind of. Doing. Your

32:45

own music and recording it in releasing it.

32:48

It's that's yet. Streaming.

32:51

And know that doesn't pay that well,

32:53

so it's pretty hard. Yeah.

32:56

I can remember through it was some producer

32:58

I think maybe was T L Be or

33:00

something like that was writing about how the

33:02

one thing we forget this is how hard

33:04

it was to get to the point where

33:07

you could release an album and get it

33:09

distributed widely in nineteen seventy your ninety the

33:11

of the ipod sir. So many great bands

33:13

at literally never recorded an album because it

33:15

was just too complicated to do. That's exactly

33:17

and you need it. Funding.

33:21

Usually from a record company to to

33:23

record an hour. Now you don't get

33:25

recorded on your laptop and it can

33:27

sound just as good as a record

33:30

that was reported enough in are expensive

33:32

studio back in the day so that

33:34

on the face of it sounds really

33:36

good. So. You have. This.

33:39

Glut of. Really

33:42

professional sounding. Songs.

33:44

And music and recordings out there. But. Then

33:47

the question is, how do they get noticed. The

33:50

or. To ask questions for you

33:52

on slightly different topics. One.

33:55

Of which is about bicycles sets I

33:57

feel like it has become over the

33:59

years. Kind of a ritual of

34:01

becoming a New Yorker. The. You

34:03

know you're a New Yorker. When you finally

34:05

have the opportunity to spot David Byrne, Riding.

34:08

A bike around Lower Manhattan. Some her

34:10

success has since you've been a big

34:12

advocate for biking and into decline, Urban

34:14

spaces were going through a bit of

34:17

a renaissance without. Right now I'm just

34:19

I'd love to hear you describe why

34:21

that is is such an important part

34:23

of a urban my for you. Wow!

34:26

Ah, I've been using a

34:28

bike as my. Principal

34:31

means of transportation and New York.

34:33

For a long time now, I

34:35

found that it was incredibly efficient

34:38

or less you were going. Long.

34:40

Distances. Mom. It.

34:43

Was really efficient. You had to be should

34:46

be really careful and aware of traffic but

34:48

less so. Now now there are more bike

34:50

lanes. Yeah it's a little bit safer. is

34:52

still have to watch out for car doors

34:55

are people making turns and. Pedestrians

34:57

walking in front of you and all the various

34:59

things, but now at least as bike lanes. It.

35:02

Didn't exist in the past. Ah.

35:05

Yes, I find not only

35:07

is it efficient, Ah,

35:09

I'm. It to me it just feels

35:11

good. Of the the feeling of

35:14

being. Self. Guided can

35:16

have in control of where I

35:18

want to go and how I

35:20

want to get there. and I

35:22

can. For example I had like

35:24

a doctor's appointment on the Upper

35:26

East side. I live

35:28

in Chelsea so it's a there

35:31

no no may be. Forty

35:34

blocks or something and across town

35:36

and I know that on my.

35:38

Bike. I know exactly how long

35:40

it'll take me to get their. I couldn't

35:43

ride a bike that day. And.

35:45

So I had to take a tab. Is

35:47

a cab. Soaked

35:50

like half again as long

35:52

as they're going on a

35:54

bike just because midtown traffic

35:56

is horrible. Horrible. Ah. That

35:59

might not be. In every city. But

36:01

I recently for a third of the mind I

36:03

spent a lot of time and Denver. Denver.

36:06

Has good bike lanes in. Denver

36:08

itself is pretty flat, so. It's.

36:10

Pretty easy to get were get around

36:13

there. I recently got an electric bike.

36:15

Which. I don't use all the

36:17

time. But. If I'm going to some well

36:19

ton of. Far in Brooklyn.

36:22

Ah, And I live in Manhattan

36:24

or in Queens or someplace like that.

36:26

I'll use electric bike. ah in that

36:28

may just makes it less daunting and

36:30

more likely that I will say oh

36:33

yeah yeah. Going. Over the bridge is

36:35

no big deal. Yeah

36:38

so I sepsis expands the the

36:40

radius of. How. Far I can

36:42

go. Last question for

36:45

you is about another project arms in

36:47

addition to this Broadway shows and that

36:49

albums and the movies are you started

36:51

a website kind of a a new

36:54

service on some level called Reasons to

36:56

be Cheerful ah a number of years

36:58

ago ah and it's going strong. You're

37:00

actually just announced a new kind of

37:03

subscription program which you can talk about

37:05

but to what's the origin story of

37:07

that and and telesur what you're up

37:09

to with that and in his latest.

37:12

iteration. Well. I sort

37:14

of started doing it for

37:16

myself. It was before the

37:18

before Trump got elected. Way

37:20

before the pandemic. but I discovered

37:23

that. I'd wake

37:25

up in the morning and look at the jews and

37:27

get. Angry or depressed Or

37:29

frustrated as probably lot of

37:31

us do And. I

37:34

thought okay I need an antidote to this

37:36

for this is not good for my health

37:39

is not good for my at it but

37:41

attitude towards the rest of the world except

37:43

for so I started saving. Ah,

37:45

news articles. About.

37:48

People who'd found solutions to things. First.

37:50

I just started doing it myself and writing about.

37:53

These things myself and then. Few

37:56

years ago can made it

37:58

official. Hired writers. Editors and.

38:01

Web. Designers and you know the whole

38:03

thing since. So now there's a new

38:05

article. Researched. and

38:07

discovered by are various

38:10

writers. Every weekday there's

38:12

a new story, so. It's

38:14

incredible that that's just the have

38:16

many stories that are kind of

38:18

positive are brought Our brains are.

38:22

Biased. Towards negative stores. Ah,

38:25

so it's a little bit of an uphill

38:27

battle to get people to read about positive

38:29

stuff or solutions. Ah, but.

38:32

It's. And of working, it's kind of working to yeah,

38:35

That seems like the least interesting

38:37

thing. To people in a

38:39

plea and in terms of the news

38:41

media or stories as. Incremental

38:43

progress here. People like to hear

38:46

stories of gradual decline, then terrible

38:48

calamities or massive breakthrough. Yeah like

38:50

cure for cancer or something like

38:52

that. but when that about different

38:55

area with the scope this country

38:57

or this town has found a

38:59

way. To. Whatever. Be

39:01

energy sustainable. And a

39:04

way that other places could emulate if

39:06

they chose to do so. Ah, those

39:08

are kind of yeah, incremental stories, but

39:11

that have a really important yeah. We're.

39:13

Asking inviting people to become subscribers

39:16

to help support us because we

39:18

don't take ads from. And

39:21

we'll see how that goes. Thank

39:23

you for sharing these stories and these

39:25

insights with us. Today has such a

39:28

treat for us. That's

39:33

it for the show today. Answer:

39:36

This season. The Ted Interview is

39:38

part of the Ted Audio Collective.

39:40

This episode was produced by are

39:42

managing producer Wilson Say Or and

39:44

mixed by Eric A Wand, Jimmy

39:46

Gutierrez and Bam Bam Chang or

39:49

story editors. Fact checking by Fauna

39:51

Matsu Direct Thera Day, Grunge is

39:53

our project managers and Dan Donald

39:55

is our executive producer. Special thanks

39:57

to Come Stance at Yard Out.

40:00

Quint on a feelin and

40:02

resume Jag a mass additional

40:05

Thanks The Season of The

40:07

Sammy Case Roxanne Hi Last

40:10

Column Hounds Julia Dickerson Danielle

40:12

Obama raised so Valentina above

40:15

Amini Just Dale Nicole The

40:17

Dna Will Hennessy or he

40:20

cam of Antonio leave any

40:22

Odell and Julia Ross. I'm

40:25

your Host Steven Johnson. For.

40:27

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