0:03

The designer talks podcast. Hello, and welcome to designer

0:12

talks podcast by the Chartered

0:16

Society of designers. I'm your

0:16

host Lefteris Heretakis. And our

0:19

guest today is David

0:19

Worthington. Welcome, David.

0:23

Thank you. Good morning.

0:25

Good

0:25

morning. fantastic to have you

0:27

here.

0:28

My pleasure.

0:30

So tell us about you.

0:32

Well, I, I'm

0:32

a designer, graphic designer by

0:35

training, and I've spent all of

0:35

my life or career pretty much

0:39

being a designer and thoroughly

0:39

enjoying it. I'm British, for a

0:44

very grown up children now live

0:44

just outside London, I've always

0:48

wondered up until very recently,

0:48

and three grandchildren and ask

0:53

away.

0:54

Fantastic,

0:54

fantastic. So when did you

0:57

realise you want to become a designer?

0:59

Um, well, I

0:59

was, I was enjoying art at

1:03

school, you know, like joy. I

1:03

like painting. And I sort of

1:08

think I quite like problem

1:08

solving. But I think when it

1:11

really when it really dawned on

1:11

me that there was something

1:13

called a designer was one of our

1:13

art teachers was a graphic

1:17

designer. And as he began to

1:17

sort of explain to me what that

1:20

was all about, I began to think

1:20

actually, this is this is

1:23

interesting, I like the sound of

1:23

this, and sort of set out to try

1:27

and find out a bit more about

1:27

it. And in our case, we had a we

1:32

had a careers master at school.

1:32

And we had a careers room from

1:35

them, really, with lots of books

1:35

about being a doctor and being

1:38

an ambassador, all these sort of

1:38

things. And there was one small

1:41

paragraph on being a graphic

1:41

designer, which suggested that

1:45

very, very few people can be

1:45

graphic designers. And the

1:49

people that work graphic

1:49

designers be extraordinarily

1:51

rich, but most of you would fail.

1:54

Wow.

1:56

That sounds that's pretty much what it was telling us. So.

2:01

And so what

2:01

happened is, so you read you

2:03

read the paragraph, you met with

2:03

your teacher? And what about

2:06

your education?

2:07

And yeah, I

2:07

suppose you could track back a

2:11

little bit further, I went to

2:11

school at the time where schools

2:14

did Latin. And, you know, the,

2:14

the idea was, you did Latin, and

2:20

if you couldn't do Latin, you

2:20

would do art, you know. So that

2:23

immediately tells you the status

2:23

of art within this particular

2:26

school. And my father will come

2:26

back a little bit, but my father

2:31

was an architect had to go to

2:31

school and say that David would

2:34

like to do art because he wants

2:34

to become an architect. And they

2:38

were terribly worried because I

2:38

wouldn't be able to read

2:40

medicine at Oxford if I didn't

2:40

have Latin. chances of me going

2:45

to Watson is just absurd. It's

2:45

just madness. So you know, art

2:51

was there, it was sort of hard,

2:51

hardwired into who I was. And I

2:56

sort of associated art with

2:56

freedom. My other a level

3:01

subjects, or physics or maths,

3:01

which I didn't associate with

3:03

freedom at all. But being doing

3:03

art, it meant you could sort of

3:07

roam around the school with a

3:07

drawing pad and sketch that

3:11

harmonizer afternoon, you could

3:11

just go and sit outside and then

3:14

we couldn't do anything about

3:14

it. So yeah, but I mean, it was

3:18

for me, it was an escape. It was

3:18

it was enjoyment. It was a great

3:23

challenge. And then I discovered

3:23

I didn't quite know how this

3:27

was, but I did. I designed a box

3:27

for a pair of shoes. And I don't

3:34

have the box anymore, but I have

3:34

a photograph of it. Thumbelina,

3:36

somewhere in the middle. And I

3:36

think I discovered graphic

3:42

design. And that was sort of

3:42

contemporaneously with it with

3:46

this teacher arriving at school

3:46

and talking about being a

3:50

graphic designer Mike Collins

3:50

was his name was his name, I

3:54

don't know, identities still

3:54

around. But it was fantastic. It

4:00

was just a kind of refreshing

4:00

thing. And, and then, of course,

4:05

I had to go to college. And my

4:05

father who never wanted me to

4:10

become an architect was very

4:10

worried about being a graphic

4:13

designer, he can sit and say

4:13

there's no future in this talk.

4:16

So what he wanted me to do was

4:16

become an architect. And once I

4:20

trained to be an architect, then

4:20

I could be a graphic designer,

4:22

you know, because I have

4:22

something to fall back on, you

4:25

know, came from an era where

4:25

careers were very important to

4:28

get the postwar generation so

4:28

and so I applied for

4:34

architecture and got places to

4:34

sit to do architecture. Yeah,

4:38

Newcastle University, and very

4:38

good offer from them. And I also

4:44

sort of went and saw Central

4:44

School and Leicester poly, which

4:47

is where I ended up. And I

4:47

remember we went for sort of

4:50

leaving interview with a

4:50

headmaster, he said long term

4:53

peace here, where's your

4:53

architecture, David? And I said,

4:57

Well, actually, I think I think

4:57

I'm preparing To become a

5:00

graphic designer, I think that's

5:00

what I'm going to do instead. He

5:03

said, Well, that's marvellous, I think you'd make a wonderful architect. And I absolutely knew

5:05

that was the rest of my life,

5:10

you know. And so it's been so

5:13

fantastic.

5:13

So tell us a bit about your

5:15

education. After after sort of

5:15

college during college?

5:21

Yeah, well, I

5:21

was probably one of the first

5:24

generations to do what was then

5:24

the new degree course, it had

5:27

been a diploma in art and

5:27

design. And probably two years

5:30

before me, it was maybe the

5:30

first year where there's dip

5:34

ideas, it was called turned into

5:34

a BA honours. So it's a three

5:38

year course. It was brilliant.

5:38

best time of my life, possibly.

5:44

Now, there's lots of ways but

5:44

it's definitely one of them. We

5:47

all still know each other and

5:47

see each other. Once a year,

5:52

during lockdown, we were doing

5:52

quite a lot of zoom calls

5:54

together. And it was just

5:54

amazing meeting hailing going,

5:58

going going to university. And

5:58

the idea that you could become a

6:04

designer without doing that is,

6:04

well, it's possible, of course,

6:08

it's possible, but it's just

6:08

nothing like as much fun, you

6:10

know, and the ability to sort of

6:10

experiment and learning about

6:14

things, in some sense is not

6:14

huge, huge amounts to learn. You

6:18

know, typography is a relatively

6:18

simple subject. But the practice

6:22

of it and the doing of it, and

6:22

the understanding of what design

6:25

is and how it works for people.

6:25

And I remember college, I had a

6:29

bit of a hiatus, because I sort

6:29

of worked out. But really, the

6:35

only the only application of a

6:35

graphic designer doing something

6:41

that would, could be considered

6:41

to be really valuable. Were the

6:44

instructions on the fire

6:44

extinguisher, we have a fire,

6:47

how does it work, get it, fire

6:47

out. There may be other similar

6:51

examples. Point being actually

6:51

nearly everything else a graphic

6:55

designer was doing was in some

6:55

respects, furthering the

6:59

commercial advantage of the

6:59

client of the buyer, you know,

7:03

travel by train or by car,

7:03

whatever it is. I sort of I got

7:08

quite worried about this,

7:08

because I felt it should be

7:10

something a bit more I suppose

7:10

ethereal or cultural or

7:15

valuable, not just about this,

7:15

this, this commercial thing

7:18

about money. So I went to see

7:18

the head, of course and said, I

7:21

think I need to leave, this

7:21

isn't working for me. And he

7:24

said, he said all while and I

7:24

explained why he said Yeah. He

7:27

said, Okay, that's fine. He

7:27

said, What do you enjoy doing?

7:30

Or sorry, I enjoy doing it. He's

7:30

fucking we'll get on with it.

7:32

Because most people are accountants and they hate. Again, you know, you get these

7:37

things that happened to you were

7:40

sorry, she was born that way,

7:40

you know, you have a sore point.

7:44

And it was the point where the

7:44

shoe box, it was the point where

7:46

they had master saying, You're

7:46

not listening to me, it was the

7:49

point with this man saying,

7:49

Yeah, get on with it, and get

7:52

over it and move forward. So I

7:52

think there's a funny thing in

7:58

education where and I think it's

7:58

underestimated this where young

8:03

people are finding their feet.

8:03

And I don't think that's easy. I

8:07

was a governor at ravenswood

8:07

University in London. And, you

8:12

know, we didn't have much contact with the students. But we had a bit and you can see

8:13

this that actually, for us, it

8:17

will seem pretty obvious when

8:17

you were there, you go to

8:19

college, and that's it and

8:19

eventually put everything in

8:22

architect, fashion designer,

8:22

whatever it was. But I think not

8:27

under estimating the confusion

8:27

in the young person's mind as it

8:31

was in mind. You know, this,

8:31

there was this thing I really

8:33

wanted to do. But yet there was

8:33

still these times when I would

8:36

look at it and think, is this

8:36

the right thing to do? And we're

8:39

going to be any good at it. Will

8:39

it work? Will I be one of those

8:42

two people who get rich? And all

8:42

those things? And yeah, it's

8:47

great, gorgeous.

8:49

Fantastic,

8:49

fantastic. So you're actually

8:51

able to change anything for

8:51

after the meeting?

8:57

No, I think

8:57

what what happened then was,

9:01

first of all, I sort of settled

9:01

down and said, Actually, I do

9:04

enjoy this just enjoy it. Don't

9:04

be anxious about it. The one

9:08

thing the other was also

9:08

mattered. A few months later,

9:12

one of the college tutors came

9:12

up to me and said, We just got

9:17

an opportunity to do work

9:17

experience at Conran associates

9:23

as it was called, to become a

9:23

design group. And could you go

9:28

and I said, Yes, when he said

9:28

tomorrow. So I said, Gosh, yes,

9:37

I will, and drove to London, and

9:37

did two weeks of colour and

9:42

design group and that was that

9:42

was again that was another

9:47

seminal piece because arriving

9:47

at that business in Covent

9:51

Garden as it was at the time,

9:51

and just seeing how it worked,

9:58

and just watching Watching this

9:58

stuff going on, you know, they

10:03

were working to leave Iser with

10:03

the Romans. And, you know, they

10:08

were designing the shops, they

10:08

were designing products, they

10:11

would they would do the

10:11

packaging and the identities and

10:15

you know that what we now call

10:15

branding, the whole kind of life

10:18

of this and then also the Congo

10:18

businesses, the shop and so, and

10:22

these amazing people. And you

10:22

know, I mean, I came from

10:25

Yorkshire, I'm some fairly

10:25

ordinary kind of kid, you know,

10:30

and I arrived in London where,

10:30

you know, you go, you go into

10:33

the toilet, and this is soap

10:33

you've never seen before in

10:35

French packaging, you know, so

10:35

sophisticated, is me trying to

10:41

keep up with this as it were.

10:41

But they were lovely. They were

10:46

just, you know, fantastic

10:46

people. And, you know, I bumped

10:49

into one of them the other day,

10:49

Geico, Robert Berbick was that

10:52

garden designer who's graphic

10:52

designer, and, and I did this

10:57

project when I was there, the

10:57

identity for the Nature

11:00

Conservancy Council. And it's

11:00

just one of those kind of

11:03

completely lucky things. And

11:03

Robert really helped me do it.

11:05

And it was, it was a good job.

11:05

And it goes into, got into one

11:09

of these animals and their home.

11:09

And I think again, that that was

11:15

what my head, of course, called

11:15

the Astra card is, you know,

11:22

quite quite well thought of now

11:22

as opposed to design. Those two

11:25

things just said to me, that's

11:25

it. And I've never looked back,

11:30

really, it's just been designed

11:30

ever since.

11:34

So what

11:34

happens is, so you continued,

11:36

you graduated, and

11:39

graduated

11:39

with a two one. My base they set

11:45

out to go first, but my thesis

11:45

wasn't. didn't put enough energy

11:50

into it. So yeah, graduated and

11:50

hired a van. But a wardrobe on

11:59

the roof, but the wardrobe and

11:59

the roof and the clothes in the

12:02

wardrobe, put a piece of rope

12:02

around it. So the rest of the

12:05

there were the bits of furniture

12:05

that we had, I was I was with

12:08

someone. And we set off in

12:08

London, and, you know, got a

12:13

flat, moved into the flat, drove

12:13

the van back up to Leicester and

12:17

said right now we need to juggle

12:17

it was just almost making it up.

12:22

And I didn't have a job. So I

12:22

said, Well, I'll work for

12:24

myself, I'll be an ad model to

12:24

clients. I'd sort of picked up

12:29

and I'd always been quite good

12:29

talking to clients about you

12:33

know, what the what they need.

12:33

And actually, in many respects,

12:36

I'm better at account facing

12:36

person than I am a pure graphic

12:40

designer. And so I said I was

12:40

freelance and then there was a

12:45

job advertised at Stuart McColl

12:45

design associates. And I applied

12:49

for it and got job. So suddenly,

12:49

I actually had a real job rather

12:53

than pretending I had a job,

12:53

which is great, because I was

12:56

earning money. And my girlfriend

12:56

at the time was a PA, so your

13:02

life settle down, we ended up

13:02

getting another flat very

13:05

quickly for one or two reasons.

13:05

And that was it. Suddenly, I was

13:09

in London and living, you know,

13:09

sort of London life, which

13:13

actually when you first arrived

13:13

is extraordinarily difficult,

13:16

because it's a city of enormous

13:16

wealth and privilege. And, you

13:22

know, it's being thrust at you

13:22

all the time. And, you know,

13:26

slightly kind of that. But I

13:26

think unsure of it all. I mean,

13:30

London takes a lot of getting

13:30

used to. And it's it's, you

13:34

know, once you do it's

13:34

fantastic, special place on

13:36

Earth, you know, I'd only ever

13:36

thought I'd only ever lived

13:39

there or New York, there was

13:39

nowhere else I've seen that

13:42

captivated me enough. But so

13:42

yeah, started with, say that

13:47

about a year and a half. And

13:47

then I got a phone call from

13:50

some of the people who were

13:50

colour and design group because

13:52

I'd gone back there in the

13:52

holidays. And when there's a

13:55

collision done freelance work,

13:55

they were setting up a breakaway

13:58

group called benchmark. Would I

13:58

come and work for them, which I

14:02

did, which was great. And I was

14:02

there for about a year and a

14:05

half. It was funded by ethics

14:05

industries, which owned a big

14:09

plastics business and the model

14:09

kit company in plastic toys, you

14:15

start together with a small boy,

14:15

which ended up going bankrupt.

14:19

So suddenly, I kind of

14:19

experience going through this

14:22

kind of receivership as it's

14:22

called in the UK. And so they

14:29

started up again, I went to work

14:29

for them. And I said, well,

14:32

comfortable work for three

14:32

months, but then I'm going to

14:34

work for myself. So probably

14:34

about three years after I left

14:37

college, I set up my own thing.

14:37

And I really worked for myself

14:42

ever since. Yes,

14:44

brilliant.

14:44

So how what is what is different

14:47

now and how do you see the

14:47

future of design?

14:51

It's a good

14:51

question. I think Well, I mean,

14:56

the obvious difference is

14:56

digital because that has shifted

14:59

the Not just the kind of way

14:59

things happen and the way things

15:03

are produced, but it's shifted,

15:03

shifted the way we live. And,

15:08

you know, it's sort of become

15:08

aware of, for example, I will

15:12

share a museum and chair of

15:12

Trustees at a museum. And we're

15:17

thinking, well, we have visitors

15:17

that come and see the museum,

15:19

but we could have visitors that

15:19

don't ever come and see the

15:21

museum and don't live in this

15:21

country and don't know who we

15:24

are. But they subscribe to us.

15:24

So it's almost like creating

15:28

real estate in that sense that

15:28

you can have people that you've

15:32

never met who are actually part

15:32

of what you're doing. So I think

15:36

digital is shifting, not just

15:36

the way we do things, but

15:40

actually, some stuff, which is

15:40

pretty fundamental. The problem

15:44

with it is it's data driven. And

15:44

it says it's all about data, you

15:49

know, they can recall the

15:49

precise numbers of people who go

15:51

to a website and exactly to the

15:51

millisecond, how long are

15:55

therefore, and design has never

15:55

had that clinical data driven

16:03

aspect and the bits of it, you

16:03

know, if you will, now a

16:05

nautical designer, you will

16:05

complete disagree with what I've

16:07

just said, because without that,

16:07

please go out of the sky. But

16:11

design in a more rounded way has

16:11

an element of intuition, but an

16:18

element of sort of insight,

16:18

thoughtfulness, you know, it's

16:22

reflective. And there's some

16:22

degree sort of happy accidents a

16:28

pattern and you know, you just

16:28

notice, when you do something,

16:30

you draw a letter, and you look

16:30

at it, well, that's rather good.

16:32

You didn't intend it to be what

16:32

it what it is, it just happened.

16:37

And I think that there's a sort

16:37

of argument between data and

16:43

design, as I as I understood it,

16:43

and I think at the moment,

16:46

there's, there's a, there's a

16:46

pumping in a rubbing of this

16:48

there. And, you know, we see it

16:48

in these the web branding, which

16:52

sort of becomes ever, ever

16:52

bigger, you know, and you know,

16:56

what happened to corporate

16:56

identity, which actually

16:58

described what you were doing,

16:58

you were creating an identity

17:01

for a corporation, that one

17:01

distinction or another, and now

17:05

it's branding and includes

17:05

everything. And because it

17:08

includes everything, it all goes

17:08

into one bucket, and a lot of

17:10

people lay claim to it. So I

17:10

think I think there is an

17:14

evolving piece at the moment

17:14

between design and other sort of

17:18

influences, which is playing out

17:18

as we speak, and I think it's

17:21

got some way to go. I don't

17:21

think that's a bad thing. I

17:26

think, you know, it's a very

17:26

positive thing. And I see design

17:30

becoming ever more important.

17:30

And I kind of say that, because

17:34

in the 80s, I had a client, bear

17:34

in mind, in the 80s, everything

17:37

was sort of going up, you know,

17:37

we were going through the roof,

17:40

the world was never going to be

17:40

the same again, you know, post

17:42

the big value earlier fortune. I

17:42

personally wasn't, you know, we

17:47

were and like I said, David I,

17:47

to be honest, I don't care what

17:53

you do, I'll show him something,

17:53

because I don't care what he did

17:56

just make it look like the

17:56

designers have been there. And,

17:59

you know, because design has

17:59

become a sort of fashion theme

18:02

where he had to show someone

18:02

this brochure or whatever it

18:05

was, and look, you know, and the

18:05

designer would listen and say,

18:09

I'm clever, and so and, you

18:09

know, design has progressed so

18:15

much, that it's now firmly

18:15

embedded in what we do, the way

18:19

we approach things, the way we

18:19

think about things. And so I

18:23

think design has a great future.

18:23

And I think there are some of

18:26

these kind of localizable

18:26

frictions going on. And it's

18:29

also unfolding in different ways

18:29

as well. You know, things like

18:31

service design for examples that

18:31

are relatively recent concept.

18:36

When I was, you know, was doing

18:36

training, we were pretty much

18:39

four or five design types

18:39

graphics interiors, fashion

18:43

product. Is that it? I think it

18:43

might have been, you know, yes,

18:50

I think it might have been now,

18:50

you know, what, what's

18:56

different?

18:56

Is it like

18:56

different titles that that

18:59

referring to the same different

18:59

packaging that refers to the

19:01

same content really.

19:04

I noticed

19:04

because I was MD a prominent

19:08

design group for 10 years. And

19:08

you know, what we were doing was

19:14

if we were talking to a retailer, for example, we were talking about brand, we were

19:16

talking about the interiors, we

19:21

were talking about point of

19:21

sale, the communications

19:24

now told me the different names that we have now I was referring to different

19:26

names we have now. Yes. Would

19:29

you say that? I just say that

19:29

there are different the

19:33

different needs?

19:34

They are they

19:34

are different because the brand

19:39

is the graphic designer and the

19:39

interior designer, technically

19:42

are different of

19:43

course no, no, of course I'm I was talking about the other names the sort

19:45

of the

19:46

the new one.

19:46

Yes, well, they are they are

19:49

they are equally different. So

19:49

if you're a service designer,

19:52

actually, you are dealing with

19:52

the way people go through the

19:56

process of being served, but go

19:56

through the experience and say

20:00

You're dealing with sound, for

20:00

example, of course, you're

20:02

dealing with some what someone

20:02

says. So you're scripting

20:05

things. Now graphic designers

20:05

don't really script stuff and

20:09

interior design. So I think I

20:09

think they are different these

20:12

things. And I think as we

20:12

discover actually got something

20:14

called service design, that

20:14

means that you can improve your

20:16

service and be more popular.

20:16

Yes, it's a real subject,

20:20

of course,

20:20

but Oh, absolutely, absolutely.

20:23

Absolutely. It's just I was I

20:23

was referring to many other

20:25

things. Yeah, fantastic. So what

20:25

would you do differently? If you

20:29

were to start again?

20:32

I wouldn't spend as much money in SAS cause I stopped that now. My impending

20:35

pension has suffered from that,

20:43

you know. So my advice to any

20:43

young design is actually treat

20:46

your pension seriously, because

20:46

we do it early enough. It does

20:49

make it does, it can make a good

20:49

difference when you're when

20:52

you're older. I learned my cost.

20:52

What would I do differently?

20:55

That? I'm not sure do very much

20:55

differently, if anything. But I

21:03

don't look back on it and think

21:03

that there were times when I'd

21:06

like, like it to have been

21:06

different, or I would have you

21:10

know, I mean, the you know,

21:10

obviously certain things that

21:13

didn't go as well, you think

21:13

yes, next time I do press a

21:16

different button or something?

21:16

Yeah, no, I don't, I don't feel

21:22

at all, I would do something

21:22

significantly different. So

21:28

what has been your most rewarding experience?

21:32

Gosh, well,

21:32

from a sort of work point of

21:41

view, you know, there are

21:41

projects that stand out. And

21:47

they're not necessarily the big ones. Here are things

21:50

where you make a difference. And

21:56

I think quite often, you can

21:56

make a big difference with

22:00

something that isn't quite as

22:00

glamorous, or starts from a

22:03

point that isn't as well

22:03

developed as a mobile client.

22:09

But the difference that you can

22:09

make is significant, even if the

22:12

end result isn't necessarily

22:12

looked at and thought to be

22:15

particularly good. So we did a

22:15

lot of work for first choice,

22:19

for example, which is a tour

22:19

operations business activity.

22:25

And, you know, you wouldn't say

22:25

that the work we did was

22:27

amazing. I mean, you know, the

22:27

designers wouldn't look at it

22:29

and say, Gosh, what a wonderful

22:29

holiday ratio, because it just

22:32

doesn't, you know, there's a

22:32

little model aeroplane there and

22:34

one of the deliveries, they see

22:34

it there. So it's not amazing

22:39

work. And no one's pretending it

22:39

is. But the difference from

22:45

where it was, when we arrived to

22:45

what we did was significant

22:49

nights, I think things like

22:49

that. That stands out, working

22:52

for diesel stood out, that was

22:52

extraordinary for Renzo Ross

22:56

owns it and all the amazing guys

22:56

that work in quite extraordinary

23:02

business. And fantastic. And

23:02

that was just really fun. I

23:07

think the other thing is that

23:07

the, you know, think back the

23:10

number of people that have

23:10

worked for me or with me or in

23:15

businesses that I've run has

23:15

been what is in the hundreds? I

23:21

feel quite proud of. And, and I

23:21

know that people would some of

23:27

the designers have said to me,

23:27

You know, when I came there, and

23:30

I you know, I have to do this

23:30

and you know, we were in a

23:33

meeting and then some finished

23:33

meetings, right off you go do

23:36

it. And I thought, gosh, how are

23:36

we going to do this? You know,

23:39

so we just chuck people in the

23:39

deep end, and we didn't, we

23:43

never looked after them. But we

23:43

always gave people the

23:46

opportunity to do things. We

23:46

weren't we weren't saying Oh,

23:49

one day, you will be able to do

23:49

it like this. Just watch me it

23:51

was completely the opposite. It was like, right, we're going to get this. You better join in and

23:53

probably wait, and I feel quite

23:57

proud of that, actually. But a

23:57

lot of the things we did we just

24:00

gone with. So I think when I

24:00

think back, we were responsible

24:06

for a huge number of things and

24:06

where we educated trained to do

24:10

that. What really we were kind

24:10

of making it up in many ways.

24:14

But I think we did. We did very

24:14

well. Yes.

24:18

Fantastic. What What else are you passionate about other than

24:20

design,

24:22

boats, boats,

24:22

boats, we only got a boat.

24:28

During the boat, there's bad,

24:28

there's all sorts of bad stuff.

24:32

There's always bad stuff. And

24:32

it's become kind of what we call

24:38

a side hustle. I've always had

24:38

boats and I ended up sort of

24:44

famous of buying and selling

24:44

bits of boats, you know, I like

24:47

classic beta like old pets. So

24:47

you know buying and selling

24:51

stuff and that's become a sort

24:51

of sideline business and in many

24:54

respects that that consumes as

24:54

much time as anything else about

24:57

it. So if you buy sailing boats

24:57

and bits of boats and things to

25:02

sell.

25:03

So could they have become another career? Or would you have chosen another

25:05

career? If you hadn't been a

25:09

designer?

25:11

Yeah, good

25:11

job. My is go back to my father

25:15

for a minute. He was an

25:15

architect. And, in the end gave

25:22

up being an architect for health

25:22

reasons, basically. And he

25:26

wanted them by boatyard he never

25:26

did. And I think there's

25:30

probably something hardwired in

25:30

my head about one day having a

25:34

boatyard. I never will. I mean,

25:34

they're just phenomenally

25:37

expensive things, which is why

25:37

he got one. The one he found

25:42

that was making enough money to

25:42

make it viable was too

25:44

expensive. The others were just

25:44

so that never happened, which is

25:48

a great shame, because I'd grown

25:48

up in the past, and actually

25:51

probably would now be running

25:51

Nokia. So I think life would

25:55

have would have been very

25:55

different. But yeah, so yes, it

26:00

could be

26:01

how does design affects your everyday life?

26:05

Well, it's

26:05

you don't, you know, you can't

26:09

create designers. They just

26:09

exist, and it's possible for

26:12

you. So it's everything. There

26:12

isn't anything that I do or look

26:17

at or think about, that doesn't

26:17

include design, we, you know, we

26:21

moved out of London A few years

26:21

ago, bought a project house,

26:24

basically. So the last three

26:24

years have been sorting better

26:27

offs and the other bits that go

26:27

with it. So that's been my

26:31

biggest time has been myself

26:31

working on this house,

26:35

everything I've looked at on it

26:35

and courses, design or design

26:38

related. And so yes, it's

26:38

everything. And actually, you

26:42

know, you see things anything

26:42

custom done, that was why they

26:48

decided like this, it doesn't

26:48

work. Look at it what you know,

26:51

and I'm not talking about, you

26:51

know, another designers efforts,

26:56

I'm talking about something a

26:56

board, you know, that he sort of

26:59

taken apart he was he was just

26:59

stupid that I think the other

27:05

thing is designed. The other

27:05

place that design is beginning

27:11

to make inroads, but I'm not

27:11

quite sure in quite which ways

27:15

is the whole sort of

27:15

environmental sustainability

27:18

question. And currently, that's

27:18

more of a technical place. But

27:24

if I look at the way we recycle

27:24

here, for example, you know, I

27:28

look at that, and I think, you

27:28

know, you can say crude object,

27:30

you got the blue bit, and then

27:30

you've got a small green bin,

27:33

and you put this in that night

27:33

in that, and this is not going

27:36

anywhere. So you got to put that

27:36

in the black bit of rubbish. And

27:39

that whole consist of is random,

27:39

difficult to manage the

27:45

equipment, you need to take this

27:45

thing to the, to the driveway,

27:49

to them to take it away is just

27:49

hopeless. You know, it's just a

27:53

very blunt instrument. And so I

27:53

think design is popping up all

27:58

over this all time.

28:00

Absolutely.

28:00

What has been your biggest

28:02

mistake?

28:08

Well, there

28:08

are two jobs which of which I

28:14

had to we had to bring our

28:14

professional indemnity policy

28:20

and cover. So those were clearly

28:20

mistakes. One was where I think

28:26

we sort of inadvertently didn't

28:26

realise, and it sounds really

28:31

ridiculous, didn't realise that

28:31

using a look at bezzie, a

28:34

drawing in someone's identity

28:34

was actually copying. And this

28:43

is not to blame the designer

28:43

that came up with the idea but

28:45

his his view was, this is what

28:45

we call found imagery. And so we

28:51

found it so we can use it, but

28:51

he can't use it because it

28:54

belongs to the estate of the

28:54

study, famous architect. And it

28:59

was a clear error, fortunately,

28:59

in the pih, or stepped in. The

29:03

other place that PMI and short

29:03

stepped in was on McLaren

29:05

Formula One's reception area in

29:05

their old previous headquarters,

29:10

not the current foster building,

29:10

but the previous one. That

29:13

wasn't the sake and yeah, I

29:13

mean, you make mistakes. It's

29:18

kind of you know, it's a bit

29:18

like accidents in the meaning of

29:20

the word is accident. It wasn't

29:20

intentional. It's an accident.

29:22

It's a mistake. But whether

29:22

things that I regret slightly

29:27

different way of looking at it.

29:27

No, I did. Yes. I mean, yes, of

29:35

course. But I mean, I've been

29:35

very lucky, you know, so that I

29:40

didn't think there'd be too many

29:40

mistakes.

29:43

Should designers be expected to solve everything.

29:49

Earth over

29:49

the last 15 years I've sent on

29:53

various committees and boards,

29:53

you know, some non exec related

29:57

stuff, genuinely Generally

29:57

unpaid roles, you know, for

30:03

charities and things. And I

30:03

thought that he likes to do

30:09

remember who it was sometimes

30:09

said to me one day, he said, I

30:12

do like, I do like it when we

30:12

have a discussion about

30:15

something. I do like what you

30:15

say, because you don't think

30:19

like the rest of us, you come at

30:19

it from a different point of

30:22

view, or you say something that

30:22

we weren't thinking about, or

30:25

whatever it is. So I think I

30:25

think designers do approach

30:34

things differently. Now, it

30:34

doesn't mean that that's always

30:38

the right thing. Because

30:38

sometimes actually, stuff in

30:41

life needs to just happen

30:41

without anyone kind of meddling,

30:43

fiddling or being overly clever

30:43

or rethinking it. But I do think

30:47

designers make it can make a

30:47

contribution to almost every

30:51

subject, because they come at it

30:51

slightly differently to the way

30:55

other people do. And therefore I

30:55

think, yes, design is there. And

31:00

it can be there in in

31:00

everything, either. And just

31:05

look at nature, the simple

31:05

Archie scan and ask yourself a

31:07

question. Who the hell does

31:07

that? I mean, that's

31:09

extraordinary, isn't it? So

31:09

there is sort of, you know, is

31:13

there a God of design? though,

31:13

you know, somehow without

31:18

design, it just wouldn't work at

31:18

all. And so, yeah, designs

31:23

designs pretty much there.

31:26

Yeah. What

31:26

principles? Do you adhered with

31:30

designer?

31:32

That's a good question. I mean, there are designers that would never work

31:34

on tobacco, for example, he'd

31:38

say, No, this is nuts. That's

31:38

against my principle. I don't

31:41

work on that kind of stuff. I

31:41

don't work for oil companies,

31:44

for example. I've never worked

31:44

for tobacco business, because

31:50

I've never been asked if I was,

31:50

would I have done it? Probably.

31:54

I mean, I spent most of my life

31:54

by smoking. I don't smoke at

31:57

all. Now. We'll have done for

31:57

several years, that term. But I

32:04

work for an oil company shell.

32:04

In essence, I think there's, I

32:09

think there are those kind of

32:09

principles. I think there are

32:14

others. I mean, you know, in

32:14

ticularly pitching, for example,

32:19

people ask you to pitch for

32:19

work. And it's such a difficult

32:24

question, you know, so what's,

32:24

you know, what would you say?

32:28

No, I'm principled about this,

32:28

and I'm not going to do any free

32:30

pitching. But actually, they're

32:30

doing a proposal for something,

32:34

it's essentially a free pitch,

32:34

you know, you're giving them

32:37

your intellectual property,

32:37

whether you draw it or write it

32:39

or sales or, or, or whatever. So

32:39

it's a moot point, at which

32:45

point the free pitch comes in.

32:45

But it's an insidious. What's

32:51

the word technique? Or, you

32:51

know, it doesn't get anyone

32:54

anywhere? I mean, I was talking

32:54

to someone the other day, and

32:57

they said, Oh, yes, will we be

32:57

one or two, I said, Well, I'm

32:59

too. Look at 20 Oh view and your

32:59

beauty parade 12 of you, they'll

33:05

bring it down to eight, and then

33:05

that'll come to four, and then

33:07

it'll come to two. And, you

33:07

know, you just do the

33:10

mathematics down at the sharp,

33:10

one voxels, we're at colour and

33:15

design group, we spent 1.1

33:15

million pounds on our new

33:20

business effort. And that

33:20

included, you know, the

33:24

pictures, the aeroplane slides,

33:24

all the expenses, the cost of

33:27

the new business department. And

33:27

the amount of new business that

33:30

we went for that year was 1.1

33:30

million. Though, if you do 1.1

33:34

million that you paid for, it's

33:34

just ridiculous. Because if

33:36

you're working at 20% margin,

33:36

we're probably back round,

33:40

they're pretty good. It takes

33:40

you five years to get 1.1

33:44

million back in five years. So

33:44

he's not he spent another 5.5

33:47

million in it. So new business

33:47

and pitching is just is the most

33:52

exciting thing in the world, you

33:52

know, but it's when you get it

33:56

as well. And even when you lose

33:56

it, sometimes it can be very

33:58

exciting. But it's it's a tough

33:58

call.

34:02

Also, usually clients take bits and bobs from each pitch and try to

34:03

put it together and then they

34:07

think they can also combine and

34:07

that's where really becomes

34:10

complicated. Also, because they

34:10

don't select you for years for

34:14

who you are, and what you do.

34:14

Just see bits and bobs in front

34:18

of them. So it becomes a very

34:18

complicated process. I was also

34:21

I was also referring to also

34:21

your designer, as a designer,

34:27

the way you design your your

34:27

your values as a designer, sort

34:30

of what how you apply these

34:30

things to your design.

34:35

Yeah, I think

34:35

the sort of underlying Well, it

34:39

was in two things really. One is

34:39

the sort of underlying

34:43

relationship you have with the

34:43

person who's giving you the

34:47

brief for this, you know, the

34:47

novel always, but mostly a

34:50

client and the way in which you

34:50

listen to what they what they

34:56

want and what they need, what

34:56

they think they need and then

34:59

you also Your observation is

34:59

adding to that colour to that

35:04

that particular conversation. So

35:04

I think for me, the fundamental

35:08

principle is who is asking me to

35:08

do this? And what is it that

35:11

they need from that isn't

35:11

necessarily what they're asking

35:14

for, but you know, what I might

35:14

see, or I might see somebody who

35:16

has something, okay, we'll do

35:16

this now. And then we'll, we'll

35:19

move on and do that sometime in

35:19

the future. So I think, you

35:24

know, the underlying the right

35:24

word for this sort of exchange

35:32

and relationship between the

35:32

client and the designer. And for

35:35

me, if you get it right,

35:35

everything else works, just you

35:39

know. So I think that that's the

35:39

guiding principle is there. And

35:44

that has to be to a great degree

35:44

compromise, you know, because

35:47

they're not necessarily going to

35:47

do what it is I want, or they

35:50

can't afford it, or they don't

35:50

think it's right yet, or they

35:52

haven't sort of got to that

35:52

point, or actually, I'm wrong.

35:55

And what this what they see is

35:55

correct, and I'm trying to take

35:59

it somewhere else. So I think, I

35:59

think for me, that is the

36:01

founding principle sits there. I

36:01

think the other is that you try

36:08

and pare things back. So you

36:08

know, what you're looking at is

36:11

what you need to look at, and

36:11

the extraneous stuff that sits

36:14

around it. So I think simplicity

36:14

is not void. And then the third

36:19

one is actually a sort of, it's

36:19

kind of nautical expression,

36:23

it's looks right is right. And

36:23

if you look at a boat, you know,

36:27

you take the shape of the boats,

36:27

and if you can see the inside or

36:30

the outside at the same time,

36:30

you know, when you're looking

36:33

down through the cabin, you can

36:33

see the ribs and the frames and

36:35

everything. And when it looks

36:35

right, it is right. And it works

36:39

well. And I think that's that's

36:39

kind of an abiding aesthetic.

36:46

Which doesn't seem to have much

36:46

place in the modern world, you

36:50

know, because in the modern world, it's sort of always a brand theory, or it's all or

36:52

that's all sort of, you know,

36:54

but actually, it's, it's the

36:54

root and branch of the industry

36:59

where someone walks into a room

36:59

and just gets it, you know,

37:03

someone walks up to a hotel desk

37:03

and just nibs it that we walk

37:08

into an exhibition gallery, and

37:08

it just, you know, it sort of

37:11

sort of comes over. Yeah. looks

37:11

right is right. principle for me

37:17

is is it has to have that it

37:17

doesn't have that just not

37:20

working. Absolutely.

37:22

has been your biggest influence in life?

37:26

Well, that's

37:26

a good question. From a kind of

37:34

career point of view, it has to

37:34

be Terran scholar. And that's

37:37

not necessarily because he was

37:37

an amazing designer in many

37:41

respects. He was an organiser, I

37:41

think rather than a designer,

37:43

but clearly was the designer. I

37:43

think, you know, I grew up in

37:50

the I went to college in the mid

37:50

70s 7578. So I was and I came

37:59

from Harrogate and Yorkshire is

37:59

very well. Well heeled, very

38:03

lovely town, sort of daughter

38:03

towns they call them. It had a

38:07

habitat in Harrogate. So I'd

38:07

sort of seen habitat, this is

38:12

this UK retailer of basically, a

38:12

better way to live, which is

38:18

what Terence was, experiment,

38:18

the virtues of, you know, a

38:23

better life, better quality of

38:23

life. And it's, it's very sort

38:26

of champagne socialist, and it's

38:26

kind of principles. But this was

38:31

this was happening, this was

38:31

coming in, you know, and it was

38:35

coming off the back of the

38:35

festival of Britain in the

38:38

postwar sort of austerity. And

38:38

then off the back of the sort of

38:42

swinging 60s where stuff was

38:42

starting to move. It was

38:45

beginning to be spread out to

38:45

the to the to every every

38:48

everyone, you know, it's

38:48

becoming democratically

38:50

available. So I think you have,

38:50

you have that you have a colour

38:55

of colour, which is blue, blue

38:55

is my favourite colour is sort

39:00

of somehow that. That works. And

39:00

then of course, I did my work

39:05

experience, got to know the

39:05

people there. Then we're back to

39:09

this sort of breakaway group.

39:09

And then in the mid 90s, we'd

39:13

had a bit of a hiatus in the

39:13

business kind of wondering what

39:16

to do get ourselves back on our

39:16

feet. We invested in digital in

39:19

1994, when it was called

39:19

multimedia. And we're the chap

39:24

that did it for we'll run it

39:24

from he said, Oh, the internet

39:26

will never be anything. Don't

39:26

worry about that. It's all about

39:28

multimedia. Very anyway. So

39:28

sitting there, and then I got a

39:34

phone call. Someone said you

39:34

want to design group and I said,

39:38

interesting. What's the deal and

39:38

you're starting a business with

39:40

about 25 people or so what's the

39:40

deal? And they said, well,

39:46

they'd buy your business or you

39:46

could buy them. And so we did

39:50

this kind of amazing deal and

39:50

sort of 20 years after I'd done

39:55

my work experience, I went back

39:55

to this same company but was

40:00

much different talents coming in

40:00

wasn't there and so on and so

40:02

forth. But there was a sort of,

40:02

cyclical, kind of meant to be

40:07

think about. So it has that has

40:07

to be the kind of theme that ran

40:13

through to which it was sort of

40:13

a one sided. Okay. So, you know,

40:18

I've met her a few times. And

40:18

the first time I met him, I

40:21

said, you know, leave us alone,

40:21

we run a company with your name

40:25

on please understand that we do

40:25

not pretend you're there and we

40:27

don't pretend were you. And then

40:27

he and I hatched a plan to put

40:31

his design business and the

40:31

public the original colour and

40:34

design group business back

40:34

together. It didn't succeed

40:37

because the people who designed

40:37

French report have us didn't

40:42

want to do it in the end. It's a

40:42

great show, because I think that

40:45

would have been a stunning

40:45

business in every respect. And

40:50

then I suppose the other

40:50

influence, but I didn't realise

40:53

it was my father. He was an

40:53

architect. He was both for

40:59

architect part of the brutalist

40:59

movement. And he worked with

41:04

Geico and Luda. Elliott is still

41:04

alive past president of Riva

41:08

twice, well respected figure in

41:08

the industry. And together, they

41:14

design sort of amazing buildings

41:14

along with a guy called Robby

41:17

Gordon. So the tripod centre

41:17

down in Portsmouth was, was one

41:22

of the as listed now now

41:22

destroyed, demolish rather than

41:27

destroy, but my father was a

41:27

project architect on building up

41:32

in Gateshead, which was in the

41:32

film get cancer, so we get car

41:35

to car park was one of my dad's

41:35

buildings. Now, you see, I

41:40

didn't realise that at the time,

41:40

of course, so that, you know,

41:43

that influence didn't exist. But

41:43

if I think back with choice of

41:49

furniture we had in the house

41:49

was actually when I reflect on

41:52

it, rather good that we had a bag

41:53

and all of some stereo, very

41:58

designed, and I sort of didn't

41:58

realise what was happening. But

42:04

if I look, I haven't photographed them, we went on about three or four in 1959. In

42:06

this very modern room, this this

42:12

kind of posts festival of

42:12

Britain room. And so I didn't

42:17

pick up any of those particular

42:17

things at the time, what was

42:20

going on, I suspect is that

42:20

sense of aesthetic, probably,

42:26

sense of design, a sense of

42:26

clarity was actually being kind

42:31

of also inculcated into my head.

42:31

So absolutely. The other thing I

42:40

should say, is all the people

42:40

I've ever worked with, you know,

42:45

I was made a principle to, you

42:45

know, just always get people

42:51

that are better than you. Yeah.

42:51

And that's, that's really stuck

42:56

with me. And I think, you know,

42:56

I've worked with some fantastic

42:58

designers and great operators,

42:58

you know, really good finance

43:02

directors, you know, great new

43:02

business people. That'll be very

43:06

lucky, though.

43:07

Yeah.

43:07

Excellent. Which brings us to

43:11

the next question, what other

43:11

skills does a designer need to

43:14

have?

43:16

Is me

43:16

listening? You got to listen,

43:22

listen, and watch. Because after

43:22

a while, someone will say to

43:28

you, like, it could be almost

43:28

any subject. So dogs, for

43:37

example. And then you say, it's

43:37

almost like kind of, there's the

43:44

quiz show just a minute where

43:44

you got to speak for a minute

43:46

without repeating a word on the

43:46

subject. And here's a subject,

43:49

there it is. And actually, for a

43:49

designer, after a while, if

43:53

someone can say a company name

43:53

to you, and you can always talk

43:57

about it without doing anything

43:57

about it, because you become

44:01

quite familiar with what might

44:01

work versus what is there what

44:05

most of what you're most likely

44:05

going to find. But I found after

44:09

a while, I could walk into a

44:09

reception area and probably tell

44:11

you what was going to, you know

44:11

what the brief was going to be

44:13

like, what the coffee is going to be like, you know, you could judge it, you could fit you can

44:15

read read the size. So I think

44:19

listening and looking are two

44:19

key things. And after a while,

44:23

you find that you can actually

44:23

interpret what you're seeing in

44:27

front of you without being

44:27

necessarily being told. But it's

44:30

because you've spent all your

44:30

time absorbing rather than

44:33

walking somewhere going on with

44:33

change. This shows that there's

44:36

not really a point. So

44:36

listening, definitely listening

44:40

and looking. There's more than I

44:40

will do.

44:44

What is the

44:44

value of research in design?

44:50

Yeah, well,

44:50

that's been very tested at the

44:52

moment, isn't it? It's very

44:52

valuable. But for me, it's the

45:03

qualitative research that

45:03

interests me, you know, what,

45:07

how do people feel about

45:07

something? And I think, you

45:11

know, where it's been largely

45:11

quantitative, we are definitely

45:17

seeing a move towards quality

45:17

rather than quantity. And I

45:20

think there's two reasons for

45:20

it, I think we are beginning to

45:22

understand that people's

45:22

feelings and how they relate to

45:25

stuff is, is palpable, it's

45:25

important, it's measurable, I

45:30

think, the same time, we're

45:30

going slightly in that

45:33

direction, because there's so

45:33

much data being produced, that

45:35

the quantitative side is, is

45:35

beginning to over define stuff,

45:39

in my view. So I tracking for

45:39

example, on, you know, websites,

45:44

you know, guess what they tell

45:44

you the ideas and top left hand

45:47

corner, that's where we should

45:47

put the logo. You know, it's

45:53

just nonsense, you know. So I

45:53

think there's data data is

45:57

starting to interrupt, and

45:57

therefore, we're sort of pulling

46:01

away from that and looking more

46:01

at the way people feel. But I

46:04

think both are important. I

46:04

think lurtz, slightly, slightly

46:08

disruptive is at least happens

46:08

in the packaging industry, where

46:13

people pitch for job, and then

46:13

either they might get it down to

46:18

two or three, and then they'll

46:18

pay them a pitch leads to

46:21

generate these packages. And

46:21

that those pieces of packaging

46:27

from two or three different

46:27

companies will go into research.

46:31

So the customer will choose the

46:31

pack that has been produced in a

46:34

pitch. Now, of course, if you

46:34

produce stuff in the pitches and

46:38

relatively, it's not an

46:38

immersive situation, you're not

46:42

working with the client at the

46:42

same way, you're not spending as

46:44

much time thinking about it,

46:44

you're not being paid as much

46:46

money as they are rushing to a

46:46

conclusion, but then someone

46:50

else chooses and that you start

46:50

to think about that sort of

46:53

thing, which probably isn't

46:53

doing the client any favours,

46:56

ultimately. So I think research

46:56

can be disruptive. What's the

47:03

business that I'm getting to

47:03

know at the moment called kids

47:06

know best? This is a very

47:06

interesting company, because

47:10

they've focused on an area of

47:10

consumer, which is not that well

47:15

understood. People talk a lot

47:15

about children, there's a lot of

47:18

old people, but they don't

47:18

understand either particularly

47:20

wealth, they tend to concentrate

47:20

on junk in the middle, they're

47:25

doing something slightly different, which is to get out of this, but what they're doing

47:27

is actually understanding how

47:29

these children think. And

47:29

they're still producing this,

47:33

this information related to the

47:33

client to that particular game,

47:37

or product or drink, or food or

47:37

whatever it is clothing. And

47:42

then they using that information

47:42

in that client to inform the

47:46

design work that's then done.

47:46

But it's sort of research led

47:50

design, which is I think it's

47:50

actually very, very interesting.

47:54

And the conversations I have

47:54

with them a little bit about,

47:57

you know, to what extent is

47:57

design lead or does research.

48:01

But I don't think it matters, but I think it's quite interesting, if you've got a

48:03

research company, that is

48:07

actually understanding that it

48:07

converts research into real

48:11

things that people can buy with

48:11

is from it. So you know, brands,

48:14

whatever is that has quite quite

48:14

a significant value. So I think

48:20

we're gonna see research change,

48:20

and I think data that's coming

48:23

out of the digital space is the

48:23

is the fuel for that.

48:29

How do you

48:29

relate to Design Awards? are

48:32

they important?

48:34

Yeah, of

48:34

course. Yeah. He doesn't. It's

48:39

not me. Well, don't you? pat on

48:39

the back?

48:45

Yeah, I think, you know, that

48:45

we, you know, around the world,

48:48

there are all sorts of different

48:48

awards. I mean, in the UK, that

48:51

particular ones, or notable ones

48:51

really a DNA D. You know, never,

48:57

I've got a couple of things in

48:57

the book. And there's a little

49:01

certificate there. I've got a

49:01

couple of things in the book,

49:04

but I've never done anything

49:04

good enough to get a pencil. And

49:08

I would love to but you know, I

49:08

think that ship has sailed as

49:12

they say. So dear ladies,

49:12

fantastic. And the DBA design,

49:17

Business Association, the

49:17

commercial awards, you know, the

49:20

leader of the successful

49:20

commercially successful design.

49:24

Great, and I've got a couple of

49:24

those in my time will say me

49:29

that might be in my company,

49:29

whatever it was. Yeah, I think

49:33

we did. We did is a bit.

49:40

Yes. Also,

49:40

more awards have cropped up

49:43

different kinds of awards. And

49:43

so it does get confusing that

49:47

yes, we have more of them now.

49:47

And yes, it got

49:50

me to get the

49:50

brand transformation awards.

49:58

Which is funny, though reason

49:58

was 10 Go into particular bits.

50:02

So the transformation awards

50:02

tend to be done in sort of the

50:11

b2b design area, particularly

50:11

people working on sort of

50:17

corporate communications, report

50:17

accounts. And that sort of area,

50:24

in AD tends to be more around

50:24

publishing is these awards have

50:28

their roots in, of course, you

50:28

know, stuff. I said, I don't

50:33

know, the I think it's some,

50:33

it's all good. You know, what

50:37

did you

50:39

know, it's

50:39

just about, really the the

50:43

awards that have become a lot.

50:43

And it seems that some of them

50:47

are just scraping the surface.

50:47

They're not like going in the

50:52

DPS, because also have too many

50:52

of them possibly right now, yes,

50:57

randomly established ones? And

50:57

they are like, Yes,

51:01

I would, I

51:01

would agree with that. I think

51:05

there's, you know, there's the

51:05

integrity of the DNA D process.

51:10

Arguably, it becomes a kind of

51:10

self fulfilling prophecy. So you

51:14

know, if you're part of it, and

51:14

you will, or do you end up on a

51:18

judging committee, and

51:18

therefore, it sort of goes round

51:20

in that particular space, but

51:20

the integrity of what was

51:24

chosen. And actually the breath

51:24

because you know, the way they

51:29

develop those awards, so rather

51:29

than just being in the book, or

51:32

a pencil, you either have

51:32

different structures and

51:34

different types of pencils, and

51:34

so forth. But clearly as an

51:39

economic thing, because I could

51:39

go back and get whatever thing

51:44

it is, and it'll disk or, you

51:44

know, rather dull coloured

51:48

pencil, probably never having

51:48

the book, but it's quite

51:50

expensive. But people do, you

51:50

know, so how many of them? Would

51:54

you like, if I thought you can

51:54

do that? It's fair enough. It's

51:59

fair enough. It pays for their

51:59

education activities in their

52:02

case, and, you know, they'll

52:02

continue,

52:05

of course,

52:05

how do you maintain your

52:08

enthusiasm and inspiration?

52:11

Well, it goes back. And actually you don't, you're in a sense ball a

52:13

designer, so it's always there.

52:17

So the friction in some respects, because to the degree, you're sitting

52:21

there thinking this looks pretty

52:23

ugly. That's not a great place.

52:23

Is that where you want to?

52:29

You want to look out on the

52:29

world that sort of, you know,

52:33

that looks that looks good,

52:33

basically. Yeah. So I think I

52:37

think it's there all the time. I

52:37

think design is always about

52:42

sort of improving things and

52:42

seeing slightly different things

52:45

and new things. I mean, just

52:45

know, with the house project

52:47

that we've done, you know, I'm

52:47

sort of looking at it now

52:50

thinking, well, we do that,

52:50

again, do that slightly

52:52

differently, or something, and

52:52

it's just continuous. So I don't

52:55

think evidence doesn't ever lead

52:55

you. Yeah.

53:01

What is the single piece of advice that you'd give to anyone starting

53:03

out as designer?

53:09

Hmm. What a

53:09

citizen? Well, I suppose

53:18

actually, to work, just enjoy

53:18

it. Just kind of, you know,

53:22

you're about to do something. I

53:22

mean, it's just,

53:26

you know, what a wonderful way

53:26

to make a living. It's, it's not

53:31

really work. You know, somebody,

53:31

someone's going to set you a

53:35

problem or task to solve. Might

53:35

be once a week, like once a day,

53:42

either once a month or once a

53:42

year, but it's not always going

53:45

to be the same, you know,

53:45

someone's going to say, how do

53:48

we do this? Or these people

53:48

would like to do the following

53:51

what's the best way? I mean,

53:51

that's just such an interesting

53:54

thing to be given. And then to

53:54

be able to sort of script it and

53:59

work with it and shape it is

53:59

just wonderful when someone's

54:02

paying you to do this. You know,

54:02

so, honestly, the advice would

54:08

be, just enjoy it, you know, you

54:08

are privileged to do this.

54:12

Absolutely published. What a

54:12

wonderful thing to do for

54:15

working right.

54:16

Well, what's

54:16

the advice for the client?

54:20

Well, I will

54:20

say, and I've always thought

54:24

that the client will work as

54:24

hard as you. And the really

54:28

successful jobs, I've found is

54:28

where the clients are firmly

54:33

engaged in the process.

54:33

Absolutely. And that interplay,

54:37

whatever it is, is there now

54:37

they may not work as hard as you

54:41

because you're certainly in

54:41

larger companies and they're

54:45

dealing with all sorts of things, you know, that you're not dealing with and they're

54:47

having sort of salads internally

54:50

and everything else. But I

54:50

think, you know, I think for the

54:54

client, you can't don't

54:54

disengage from it. And I think

54:59

you know, the the process of

54:59

selecting the designer, whether

55:02

whether it's by recommendation

55:02

or by either choosing or by

55:08

testing or by pitching or

55:08

whatever it is, is not the

55:12

answer. All you've done is

55:12

choose a designer in the pitch,

55:16

they've come up with this thing

55:16

that you think is good.

55:20

Actually, they will come up with

55:20

it pretty quickly. And it won't

55:23

all work. So, you know, one

55:23

thing I'll definitely say, for

55:29

parents is don't assume the

55:29

pictures, the answer is even the

55:31

pictures, the beginning of the

55:31

journey. And if you've got

55:34

something that even you think

55:34

it's brilliant, and they think

55:36

it's brilliant, you should stop

55:36

and say, right, let's just road

55:39

test this, because we did it

55:39

quickly. And we don't know that

55:43

it covers all the bases it's

55:43

going to need to cover so we

55:46

need to experiment with this.

55:46

And I've seen it time and time

55:49

again, where the pitch becomes

55:49

the answer. And actually, when

55:52

you go into another theme go a

55:52

little bit down the lighting

55:54

side doesn't really work in that

55:54

situation or that environment,

55:59

or it's not quite good enough

55:59

for that particular shot,

56:02

whatever it is, you know. So,

56:02

yeah,

56:05

absolutely.

56:05

And what is the most important

56:08

thing that you've learned as a designer?

56:20

But I'm not

56:20

sure that the world will always

56:26

be a better place, I suppose. You know, the people, that

56:29

people are the most important

56:33

thing. Yeah, it has to work for

56:33

them. But as far as design,

56:43

okay, where the best design is,

56:43

when you can't see it. It just

56:45

sits there. It does what it's

56:45

supposed to do, you know, even a

56:48

beautiful car just sits very

56:48

comfortably on its form. And

56:55

makes you feel very pleased or

56:55

happy about things either that

56:59

improves quality of life.

57:01

Absolutely.

57:03

Which I guess is that's what turns comedy on. So

57:07

yeah. Well,

57:07

David, thank you so much for

57:09

your time. Let's get the

57:09

conversation.

57:14

interesting for people listening to it. And I'm sorry, I swore early on so

57:15

you might edit that out.

57:19

Okay, so

57:19

have a wonderful day.

57:23

Yes, Angie?

57:23

Yes. Bye.