0:14

Hello, and welcome to design a talks podcast from the charter Society

0:15

of designers. I'm your host

0:19

Lefteris Heretakis. And our

0:19

guest today is Peter Cullen.

0:23

Welcome, Peter.

0:26

Hi there. Good to be here.

0:27

It's

0:27

fantastic to have you here. So

0:30

tell us about yourself.

0:33

And yeah, well, so

0:33

I, I work in exhibition, design

0:39

or experiential design. I've

0:39

done that now for over 20 years,

0:44

I think. I think it's that long.

0:44

I kind of started originally as

0:52

an industrial designer, or

0:52

that's what I studied. And then

0:56

went on from there to study

0:56

spatial design, interior

0:59

architecture, that kind of

0:59

thing. And then from there, I

1:04

didn't really know what design

1:04

was, if I'm honest, I went to

1:09

the University studied design, I

1:09

think pretty much because I

1:13

could draw I think that was that

1:13

was a big thing didn't really

1:16

know what I want to do with my

1:16

career, and sort of fell into it

1:19

a little bit. But I think the

1:19

more i The more I practice it,

1:23

the more I learned about it, I

1:23

think the more I realised I had

1:26

an interest in it, and hopefully

1:26

an aptitude for it. And I think

1:31

this sort of career evolved

1:31

similarly from there. And the

1:34

you know, I started doing my

1:34

first job was in sort of

1:39

corporate exhibitions and trade

1:39

stands and things like that. I

1:42

then went on to do a little bit

1:42

in workplace design, interior

1:45

design, and then kind of fell

1:45

into designing museums and

1:50

permanent exhibitions and things

1:50

like that. And I think that was,

1:53

that was kind of a big moment

1:53

for me where I, I didn't even

1:56

know that career existed. As a

1:56

lot of young creatives at that

2:00

time that you send your CDs out

2:00

and your folio, you're kind of

2:04

happy to get a job to get any

2:04

job. And you discover people and

2:09

you discover practices and

2:09

techniques that you didn't think

2:13

even existed and you start to

2:13

learn from them start to adapt

2:16

them. And yeah, and then have

2:16

been designing experiences,

2:21

museum galleries, world expos.

2:21

And any kind of space that tells

2:27

a story, and we're doing that

2:27

now for well, yeah, just over 20

2:30

years. So, so yeah.

2:35

Plastic. So

2:35

how did it all start? At what

2:38

age did you did you realise?

2:42

I, you know what, I

2:42

don't really know the answer to

2:44

that question. If I'm honest,

2:44

like I said, my career kind of

2:48

chose me rather than I chose it.

2:48

And it was never like I was

2:50

eight years old. And yes, I want

2:50

to be a I want to be a designer.

2:55

I think it it My parents were

2:55

both were they were sort of Yin

3:00

and Yang, I guess one was a

3:00

structural engineer, civil

3:02

engineer. And my father and my

3:02

mother was a was a fine artist,

3:08

or still is fine artist. My

3:08

dad's retired now. But yeah, my,

3:11

my mother's a practising fine

3:11

artist. So I think I was the

3:14

sort of merriment of those two

3:14

things of that kind of structure

3:19

and creativity, the two things,

3:19

I sort of hope I took the best

3:24

of both, but I don't, I don't

3:24

know, maybe they'll disagree

3:27

with that. But I think that was

3:27

always again, it was it was

3:30

something that I never really

3:30

knew that I wanted to do. But at

3:34

school, I just was always good

3:34

at drawing, you know, and I

3:37

always like to draw things and

3:37

imagine things and create

3:42

things. I used to get in quite a

3:42

lot of trouble with my cheaters

3:46

or art teachers, because I

3:46

always wanted to draw things

3:50

that were in my head or draw

3:50

things that I'd imagined. And

3:55

they always used to tell me off

3:55

because I know it's a craft, you

3:57

need to do still life, you need

3:57

to draw landscapes, or you need

4:00

to draw portraits, you need to

4:00

learn form. And you do that by

4:04

looking at things and recording

4:04

them. And I sort of, I kind of

4:08

never want to do that. I want to

4:08

imagine things. I can sort of

4:12

see the arrogance and naivety of

4:12

myself when I was that age, and

4:16

why my teachers used to get so

4:16

frustrated with me. But also I

4:19

thought it was interesting that

4:19

when I discovered design, as

4:23

kind of what you're encouraged

4:23

to do, you're encouraged to

4:26

conjure something from things

4:26

you look at, or things you know,

4:30

or things you see or things that

4:30

you can sort of envisage or

4:33

imagine and create things based

4:33

on that. And I think that was

4:37

probably something that drew me

4:37

to it, but I'm not going to lie

4:39

I could draw. So I went to I

4:39

went to art college and I

4:44

studied design and I think I

4:44

spent two years of that was not

4:48

really knowing what what the

4:48

hell I was doing, but getting

4:51

the good mark in and sort of

4:51

scraping through but I think it

4:55

was later that I started to

4:55

realise what I was actually

4:58

doing And what the value of it

4:58

was. But it took quite a long

5:03

time for me to get to that. I

5:03

think maybe I don't know,

5:06

slightly resisted it a little

5:06

bit. I don't know why that is,

5:10

I'm not entirely sure. Probably

5:10

because I thought it was quite a

5:14

confined thing. But the more I

5:14

explored it, and the more I

5:18

encourage voluntary tutors to

5:18

think differently. I think that

5:22

opened me up to other other kind

5:22

of possibilities and other other

5:26

avenues. And I think that's when it became really, really interesting. So yeah, I still

5:28

not sure I know the answer to

5:33

that question. But that's kind

5:33

of the path I took, I think a

5:36

lot, a lot of creatives have

5:36

that similar experience, you

5:40

know, you never really look at

5:40

your, your career path and plan

5:45

it all out from the very, very

5:45

beginning, you sort of try and

5:48

discover different things you

5:48

meet different people may take

5:50

you on different routes,

5:50

different piles, and before you

5:52

know it, you end up doing

5:52

something that you didn't even

5:55

know, existed, or was possible.

5:55

I mean, I never knew that there

6:00

were exhibition designers. You

6:00

know, when I was when I was a

6:03

kid, or sort of when I was even

6:03

when I was at uni, it was

6:07

something that I kind of

6:07

happened upon. I'm glad I did,

6:09

because I don't know what I'd be

6:09

doing otherwise. But, but yeah,

6:15

I think I was fortunate in that sense.

6:16

So you, you

6:16

have never thought about an

6:19

alternative career if you couldn't do that.

6:21

I mean, I think when

6:21

I was younger, I used to, I used

6:27

to illustrate a lot I used to,

6:27

it was a huge fan of you know,

6:30

like the British comics, you

6:30

know, that 2000 ad and, and

6:34

Judge Dredd and you know, all

6:34

kind of all those sort of, you

6:38

know, muscles and guns and, you

6:38

know, people's heads getting

6:42

blown up by lasers, and you

6:42

know, all that sort and kind of,

6:45

you know, big sort of industrial

6:45

robots and all that kind of

6:47

stuff. I just thought that was a

6:47

whole other world on a page that

6:51

I thought was just the coolest

6:51

thing I've ever seen, you know,

6:54

when I was sort of snotty nosed

6:54

kid. And so I always was quite

6:59

influenced by that. And I always

6:59

started to, you know, create my

7:02

own stories and draw my own

7:02

comic strips. I thought that

7:06

they were the best thing since

7:06

2000 ad, but I think I look back

7:10

again, maybe a bit of naivety,

7:10

but that was sort of a career

7:13

path that I wanted to do. And,

7:13

yeah, that was always something

7:19

that I thought about, maybe

7:19

doing. And to be honest, I

7:24

probably wasn't good enough. I

7:24

was certainly you know, Greg

7:27

staples. But you know, I could

7:27

illustrate well enough to

7:30

impress my mates and go, yeah,

7:30

look at this cool thing that

7:33

I've done. And it was like, Wow,

7:33

that's amazing. But doing it

7:36

professionally, I think was

7:36

another matter again, maybe a

7:38

bit of naivety. So I think I

7:38

think that was a path, I think,

7:41

I think I was always sort of

7:41

weirdly influenced on the kind

7:48

of completely opposite side by

7:48

my dad. Him being an engineer,

7:53

civil engineer, because he was

7:53

so so fascinated by how things

7:56

worked. And will always sort of

7:56

take things apart and put them

8:00

back together. So I always get I

8:00

always had that fascination, I

8:05

used to do the same thing. I

8:05

used to get a radio and just

8:07

like take it to pieces, and then

8:07

try and put it back together. I

8:10

didn't always do it

8:10

successfully. And that was

8:13

always a fascination. But I

8:13

think it was something that I

8:17

knew. I didn't know I wasn't

8:17

that good that at first. But it

8:22

was sort of interested in. I

8:22

thought that was that was that

8:25

was quite interesting. For me. I

8:25

never thought I was that

8:29

practical with my hands. I was

8:29

good at drawing and imagining

8:32

things and not particularly good

8:32

at making things. So that I

8:36

wanted to be because my dad was

8:36

so that was always something I

8:40

sort of, I don't know, smashed

8:40

at radios and tried to put them

8:43

back together in my spare time,

8:43

as well as drawing comic strips,

8:49

trying to be you know, 2000 ad

8:49

illustrator. But yeah, I think

8:53

beyond that there was a weird

8:53

time I wanted to be a police

8:55

officer. I don't know what was

8:55

going through my head then. That

8:58

would not Yeah, that would not

8:58

have been a good career choice

9:01

for me having a slight problem

9:01

with authority. That that yeah,

9:08

that wouldn't have worked out

9:08

well. Thank God things ended up

9:11

the way they did.

9:12

Are you

9:12

collecting comics now?

9:16

No, not really. I

9:16

mean, I used to, I was never a

9:20

serious collector. You know, I

9:20

could never keep them in good

9:23

enough condition. You know, I

9:23

would always sort of I'd sort of

9:27

obsess over them but in more in

9:27

terms of the the illustration

9:30

style, and I'd sort of try and

9:30

replicate that. I remember

9:34

buying an airbrush once and

9:34

making a terrible mess.

9:39

Actually, I used to do a thing

9:39

where I used to this is I'm not

9:43

sure I shouldn't be making this

9:43

but I used to buy little pots of

9:46

acrylic paint. So I used to draw

9:46

like a scene on a use like one

9:50

of my my dad's old drawing

9:50

boards because he had quite a

9:53

few back in the days where you

9:53

know, all his drawings are all

9:56

by hand. And I used to draw a

9:56

scene normally Live, somebody's

10:01

getting exploded in some way or

10:01

shape or form by, you know, a

10:07

certain 2000 ad character, but I

10:07

used to put the little pot of

10:10

paint on the illustration. And I

10:10

had a, as a lot of children did

10:14

growing up in the countryside,

10:14

which is where I grew up. I had

10:18

a little pellet gun, so I put a

10:18

little pot of paint on it, and

10:22

then I'd stand at the other side

10:22

of my room, and I'd shoot the

10:25

pot of paint. So it's sort of

10:25

splattered all over the

10:28

illustration. I was no Jackson

10:28

Pollock, you know, but, again, I

10:34

thought that was sort of really

10:34

cool. You know, that was my

10:37

version of being punk. But I

10:37

didn't know there was sort of

10:41

things like that, that I that's

10:41

how I used to spend a lot of my

10:45

spare time. But I think, yeah, I

10:45

always found kind of an ISIL

10:50

kids, do you just sort of

10:50

playing around with your you're

10:53

sort of fiddling around with

10:53

things on you know, in your in

10:55

your spare time, but But yeah,

11:00

that's,

11:00

that's very interesting. So what

11:03

has been your most rewarding

11:03

design experience?

11:06

And I don't know,

11:06

again, it's a very difficult

11:11

question to answer. I mean, I

11:11

can talk about projects I've

11:13

done. I mean, I've done some

11:13

sort of projects that I'm quite

11:16

proud of. We just, we finished

11:16

the mobility pavilion at the

11:23

Dubai Expo, being huge

11:23

experiential project, where it's

11:27

incredible people, you know,

11:27

mazing clients, really forward

11:32

thinking, really want to push

11:32

the envelope, amazing

11:35

collaborators, you know, like

11:35

people that design movie

11:37

production sets and things like

11:37

that wetter workshop and New

11:41

Zealand and Magno percent of Los

11:41

Angeles, and all credible

11:45

engineers, and, you know, huge

11:45

cast of people, I was a sort of,

11:49

you know, played a role in that

11:49

huge curse. But then other

11:53

projects, like the blink blink

11:53

project we did for Sightsavers.

11:56

That was, that was a great

11:56

moment. And that was all about

11:59

raising awareness of sight loss.

11:59

And we created a, an art

12:04

exhibition that when you

12:04

blinked, it destroyed a piece of

12:07

the exhibition digitally, when

12:07

you're actually in the space. So

12:10

that was great. And again, you

12:10

know, fantastic collaborations.

12:13

But I think, I think one of the

12:13

things is that, you know, the as

12:18

as, as I've matured, in my

12:18

career, as I've got a bit older,

12:22

you sort of realise that you

12:22

don't really have an individual

12:26

doesn't have ownership on

12:26

projects. So all the projects

12:30

I've done that I've been the

12:30

most proud of, if it was just

12:32

me, they wouldn't have been

12:32

anything like what they were, it

12:35

was all the other people, all

12:35

the other collaborations, all

12:38

those conversations where you

12:38

bounce off of each other, where

12:41

that magic happens, where things

12:41

crackle, whether alchemy occurs,

12:46

you know, you walk into a room

12:46

thinking, we don't have an idea

12:50

what the hell are we going to do, and you come out of that room with something, you know,

12:52

and all you've done is sat in a

12:54

room with bits of paper and post

12:54

it notes and chatted backwards

12:58

and forwards. And suddenly,

12:58

you've got this incredible

13:00

vision for this incredible

13:00

thing. But then you go on for

13:03

months, years, however long to

13:03

achieve. So I think I think for

13:06

me, it's the sort of most

13:06

rewarding moments of those

13:10

moments, those moments of

13:10

collaboration. And also, I

13:13

think, I think building and

13:13

developing a team as well, you

13:19

know, being able to, to kind of

13:19

see people grow into their roles

13:24

and contribute more and more to

13:24

the creative culture of projects

13:29

and the company. We were at

13:29

work. Yeah, I think it's those

13:33

moments, I don't think it's a

13:33

singular thing that I can claim

13:38

that I can lay claim to. It's

13:38

more things that I've helped

13:42

happen with other people, those

13:42

those kind of alchemy, those

13:46

moments of alchemy, those

13:46

moments of magic. I think, for

13:50

me, that's that's always the

13:50

most rewarding part of the

13:53

project. Yeah, definitely.

13:56

That's very

13:56

interesting. So how does design

13:59

affect your everyday life?

14:02

And these are very

14:02

broad questions. I can get out.

14:08

So maybe it

14:08

could be just to take us on a

14:10

journey about about you know,

14:10

your, your ideas, and yeah,

14:15

yeah, I mean, I

14:15

think I think all designers

14:19

would say that they're curious.

14:19

I think that's a real sort of

14:25

character trait you have to have

14:25

to to be to be any creative, I

14:30

think, but certainly a designer,

14:30

I think you have to be curious

14:33

about the way things work or the

14:33

way things could work out to

14:37

question things. I think it goes

14:37

back to me, you know,

14:40

dismantling the radio I think

14:40

that was maybe I didn't really

14:43

know why I was doing it, but it

14:43

was me subconsciously sort of

14:45

trying to understand something

14:45

and look behind. I want to know

14:48

how it works. I want I want to

14:48

know how the radio actually work

14:52

works. What's it made of? And it

14:52

was a moment you opened it up

14:55

and you saw this stuff inside it

14:55

that it's sort of I remember it

14:58

blowing my mind a little bit. So

14:58

I Think curiosity is a huge part

15:01

of that. And I think that's

15:01

something that you don't turn on

15:05

and turn off. It's not a nine to

15:05

five thing or, you know, you go

15:08

into your studio and you're

15:08

curious, and then you leave. And

15:11

you're no longer curious. I

15:11

think there's a mindset. So I

15:14

think, I think design has always

15:14

affected my life in that way. I

15:19

just maybe didn't always know

15:19

it. But I think that that

15:22

curiosity, and I think when you

15:22

learn and practice design, you

15:26

learn a lot about the world, you

15:26

learn a lot about, you know, how

15:30

the world is built, you know,

15:30

primarily, but also, you know,

15:34

in the field that I'm in, where

15:34

we do a lot of international

15:38

projects, museums, cultural

15:38

projects, you you kind of learn

15:42

how governments work, you learn

15:42

how things are funded, you

15:46

learn, you know, how governments

15:46

push funding towards education,

15:52

and what their plans not just

15:52

for now, but but the future. You

15:58

also learn about audiences, you

15:58

learn about what they engage

16:01

with, and what they don't engage

16:01

with. And you also learn about

16:03

the subjects that you exhibit,

16:03

you know, so woman, we're doing

16:06

exhibition about, well, sight

16:06

loss, the next turn experience

16:10

is all about human mobility, or

16:10

the planets in the solar system.

16:18

You know, you get to learn a lot

16:18

about the world from lots of

16:21

different perspectives. So I

16:21

think it's the sort of, I guess,

16:26

giant version of me dismantling

16:26

the radio and trying to put it

16:30

back together. I guess, for the

16:30

last 20 years, I've been trying

16:33

to put the radio back together

16:33

in different ways. You know, so

16:38

but yeah, I think I think for

16:38

me, I think then you realise how

16:41

design affects everyone's life,

16:41

you know, and it's not always

16:44

exciting. It's, you know, I

16:44

remember, my tutor in the first

16:49

year, this is always one of the

16:49

things that stuck with me, I

16:51

think, again, at the time, I was

16:51

like, No, that's nonsense. But I

16:55

it's always resonated with me,

16:55

where I remember he said that,

16:59

you know, the ultimate form of

16:59

design is a toothbrush. You

17:02

know, it's like, if you can

17:02

design a toothbrush, and if you

17:06

can make it the best damn

17:06

toothbrush that's ever worked

17:09

functionally. But you can also

17:09

make it beautiful. That is,

17:13

that's as high as, as high as

17:13

high as achievement as you can

17:17

get. You know, as a designer,

17:17

that is the absolute pinnacle,

17:21

that's the apotheosis of where

17:21

you can get as a designer. And

17:24

that was like, What are toothbrush now that's boring. I want to design this to want to

17:25

design that. But But thinking

17:28

back, you know, he's right. And

17:28

in that everything is designed

17:32

around us every single thing

17:32

use. And I think, unfortunately,

17:36

more often than not, you notice

17:36

design when it's bad, you notice

17:40

it when it doesn't work,

17:40

particularly in industrial

17:42

design, when it works. It's sort

17:42

of it's almost mundane, because

17:46

it you take it for granted, whether that's the thing that facilitates my life. I think

17:48

when you move into a larger

17:51

scale, when you move into

17:51

experientially moving to

17:54

architecture and things like

17:54

that, I think the success of

17:57

design becomes a much broader

17:57

expression, a much broader

18:00

canvas. And I think you can kind

18:00

of, you know, what, I guess you

18:06

can show off a little bit more,

18:06

maybe there's a little bit more

18:08

room for, you know, the the

18:08

flamboyant personality designer,

18:13

I think that's maybe one of the

18:13

reasons why I moved into more

18:17

spatial design, because it was a

18:17

it was a larger canvas. But I

18:21

think there's pitfalls you can

18:21

fall into with that as well,

18:24

because it you things can very

18:24

easily become ego projects. And

18:27

again, in my slightly advancing

18:27

years now. The ego project has

18:32

never work, you know? Yeah, but

18:32

no, I think I think design it, I

18:38

think it affects all of our

18:38

lives. But for me, it always

18:40

comes back to curiosity, I

18:40

think.

18:44

So who has been your biggest influence? You talk about your tutor, and who

18:46

has influenced you the most?

18:50

And yeah, I mean, I

18:50

think I don't think it's any one

18:55

individual person, I think lots

18:55

of people have influenced me in

18:58

very different ways throughout

18:58

my life. And throughout my

19:01

career. I think if you put them

19:01

all next to each other, they

19:04

probably wouldn't get on

19:04

particularly well, because I

19:06

think they're all very, very

19:06

different. You know, I think

19:10

both my parents without a doubt,

19:10

you know, just from a young age,

19:14

always seeing my dad making

19:14

things and, you know, drawing

19:18

things with to a very technical

19:18

precise level. But then my mom,

19:22

you know, doing huge big

19:22

canvases and you know, painting,

19:25

like kind of big, abstract

19:25

pieces. And, you know, but I

19:30

what was interesting is I always

19:30

remember feeling slightly

19:33

intimidated by both of them,

19:33

because I looked at my dad and

19:36

what he did, and I was like,

19:36

wow, how does he do that? And

19:39

other to my mom and doing this

19:39

huge stuff, and, you know, how

19:42

does she do that? But they were,

19:42

they were, they were sort of

19:45

very opposite things, but in a

19:45

way they weren't because they

19:47

were both conjuring and creating

19:47

things, but just in different

19:50

ways. So I think that that's

19:50

always been something that's

19:53

influenced me and again, I think

19:53

they were both very, very, or

19:56

both are still very curious

19:56

about out the world and sort of

20:01

wants to learn about things and

20:01

always looking for interesting

20:05

stories and interesting bits of

20:05

knowledge in order to try and

20:10

learn more about the world and

20:10

sort of, I don't know, develop

20:15

themselves as people. And I

20:15

always thought that was quite

20:17

fascinating. I always felt naive

20:17

compared to them, which I think

20:21

was a good thing, you know,

20:21

slightly intimidated, but

20:24

slightly naive, but also

20:24

slightly inspired. So I think

20:28

that was good. And I think that

20:28

was something that again, when I

20:30

was a kid, I didn't really

20:30

realise what's happening. But

20:32

now I look back on it and still

20:32

have those influences. Yeah, and

20:38

I do think my, my cheats as a

20:38

college were, were great, you

20:43

know. Again, when I was early

20:43

college, I probably didn't agree

20:50

with that. I pretty much

20:50

disagree with every single thing

20:53

that they said. But that was my

20:53

my own naivety. I'm sure they've

20:57

heard it all before, from, you

20:57

know, kind of young, cocky

21:01

students coming in thinking that

21:01

they're the next, you know, John

21:05

nouvelle or whatever or Philippe

21:05

Starck. But now I think there's

21:09

sort of lessons that that they

21:09

imparted at the time that I

21:13

never didn't agree with. But now

21:13

I, I actually realised were very

21:18

wise. I think there was one. It

21:18

was my tutor in the I think it

21:23

was in the second year that he

21:23

said this guy called Ray. And I

21:27

remember him saying the scariest

21:27

thing to a designer is a blank

21:31

sheet of paper. I was I

21:31

remember, and My instant

21:33

reaction was no, that's

21:33

ridiculous like that, how, what

21:37

a stupid thing to say. A blank

21:37

sheet of paper is opportunity.

21:40

And it's like freedom. And it's

21:40

like, someone gives me a blank

21:43

sheet of paper, I can't wait to

21:43

create something on that piece

21:46

of paper. You know, at the time,

21:46

that was my reaction. Now, I

21:50

actually think back and I think

21:50

you know what, you're right,

21:52

because that's what design is,

21:52

you know, it's not fine art,

21:57

where you literally just, you

21:57

just put you on a piece of

22:00

paper, a blank sheet of paper,

22:00

that means no direction, it

22:03

means there's, there's, you

22:03

know, which way do I go, you

22:07

know, it's a void, you know, I

22:07

need influence, I need direction

22:10

to create a piece of design that

22:10

is relevant that works. So I

22:14

think that was a lesson it took

22:14

me a long time to learn, I

22:18

think. But I remember being told

22:18

that

22:22

you know, and then obviously, my

22:22

career, you know, as a guy

22:28

again, in my job at met, what's

22:28

his company, Alex, who is one of

22:34

the most sort of ferocious

22:34

individuals I think I've ever

22:40

come across as this very kind of

22:40

rambunctious as Legion

22:44

character. But I just remember

22:44

from the moment I met him, I was

22:47

like, okay, yeah, you're someone

22:47

I want to work with, you know,

22:51

just fearless and hugely

22:51

creative, massively ambitious,

22:58

but just really, so much heart

22:58

and soul and spirit and passion

23:03

for what he does and what he

23:03

wants to do. And, yeah, that,

23:10

for me, was a big turning point

23:10

in my career, I think, because

23:13

it was like, okay, yeah, this is

23:13

the path I want to take. You

23:16

know, and I probably spent a lot

23:16

of my career trying to be like

23:19

him, and then realised very

23:19

quickly, I'm not him. Because

23:23

I'm, you know, not as Sean

23:23

Connery esque as, as he is. But

23:29

it's sort of inspired me to

23:29

create my own personality

23:32

through what I do. Without being

23:32

arrogant. And without being

23:36

dictatorial. I think that's

23:36

important. That to kind of

23:40

inspire others through, you

23:40

know, being a little bit

23:43

fearless, and not being afraid

23:43

to challenge things. But also,

23:47

you know, being being very

23:47

professional, and I think that,

23:49

for me, was a huge influence in

23:49

terms of how you can actually

23:53

approach creative work

23:55

and movie.

23:55

What principles do you adhere to

24:00

as a designer?

24:03

Yeah, I think

24:03

collaboration is probably for me

24:06

is is is the is the first thing

24:06

I think, particularly in in the

24:12

field that I work in, which is

24:12

experiential, because it's so it

24:15

has to be so collaborative. It's

24:15

lots and lots of different

24:18

crafts, its architecture, its

24:18

interiors, its technology,

24:24

interaction, sculpture,

24:24

commissioned pieces,

24:27

conservation, script writing,

24:27

etc, etc, etc. There's a huge

24:31

cast of experts that you need to

24:31

not only create, but also

24:39

execute projects. So I think I

24:39

think collab collaboration from

24:43

the outset is really, really

24:43

important. I think bringing

24:46

people in at the right moment is

24:46

also very, very important.

24:49

Otherwise, it can become a bit

24:49

of a soup, you know, bit of a

24:51

free for all. But, but no, I

24:51

think collaboration I also think

24:56

in terms of how to manage or run

24:56

a design team The thing that's

25:00

really important, I think is how

25:00

you get the best set of people

25:03

is you make them feel valued,

25:03

you make them feel that they're

25:05

part of a team. They're not just

25:05

there to churn out CAD or to do

25:10

their little piece of it that

25:10

they get, say, and they have a

25:13

voice. And I think that's

25:13

really, really important. That

25:17

that kind of collaborative

25:17

philosophy, I also think it

25:23

sounds obvious, but I think

25:23

listening is really, really

25:27

important as well. Again, it's

25:27

something Alex used to always

25:30

say to me, he always used to

25:30

say, never work for a company

25:36

that's named after a person.

25:36

Because it's the voice of that

25:40

person. You know, I'm not sure

25:40

that's universally true. I don't

25:44

know. But, but I think it's an

25:44

interesting point of view.

25:49

Because it's, I think, if you

25:49

dictate too much, and it's just

25:54

the voices and opinions of a

25:54

single person, I think things

25:57

can never, they, then they never

25:57

as good as they can be. But at

26:01

the same time, it can't be a, it

26:01

can't be committee. And it can't

26:06

be a free for all, there needs

26:06

to be somebody guiding the

26:09

process, you know, who

26:09

understands the vision of where

26:14

you're trying to get to, but

26:14

allow flexibility in that

26:16

process that other people can

26:16

challenge it and move it in the

26:19

direction it needs to move. And

26:19

it was it was a film director

26:26

who said, a camel is a horse

26:26

designed by committee, I think

26:31

was Terry Gilliam he said that

26:31

and I felt that's always sort of

26:35

very interesting, I think in

26:35

terms of how, in terms of how

26:41

you approach it. So I think,

26:41

yeah, I think listening is

26:44

really, really important. In

26:44

our, in our world, because you

26:49

know, our jobs don't belong to

26:49

us, they belong to our clients,

26:52

you know, and we can't let our

26:52

own ego get in the way of that,

26:55

you know, we have to push things

26:55

and elevate things. But at the

26:58

end of the day, our jobs need to

26:58

serve a function and need to

27:00

meet the needs of our clients.

27:00

And if we can elevate them

27:03

beyond that, and give them

27:03

something that, you know, maybe

27:06

they thought it wasn't even

27:06

possible, and exceed their

27:09

expectations, and great, that's

27:09

what we're all trying to do. But

27:11

ultimately, everything we do has

27:11

to come from our clients coming

27:16

to us with a problem or a

27:16

challenge or revision us

27:20

listening to that and then doing

27:20

what we do.

27:23

Absolutely,

27:23

absolutely. What has been your

27:26

biggest mistake.

27:30

That's a lot of winning interview where someone says, What's your weakness?

27:32

What's your biggest weakness?

27:34

And you say like, oh, you know,

27:34

sometimes I care too much.

27:38

Sometimes I work too hard, you

27:38

know? Yeah. I think I thought

27:49

she thought a lot about this

27:49

question over the years. Because

27:53

I've made so many mistakes, you

27:53

know, individual mistakes, like,

27:57

you know, oh, I made a mistake

27:57

in a drawing or, I mean, I made

28:00

some houses in the past, you

28:00

know, and of course, always,

28:03

there was always an excuse. So

28:03

the, you know, Vectorworks

28:05

didn't work properly. And

28:05

certainly, you know, you always

28:09

learn from the mistakes, I think

28:09

I make a point of not forgetting

28:13

them, because they were quite

28:13

painful. But I always remind

28:16

myself of how I felt when that

28:16

happened. So that I don't ever

28:21

forget it. So it doesn't ever

28:21

happen again, I think that's

28:24

quite an important thing is

28:24

slightly masochistic. But it

28:27

seems to work that, I don't

28:27

know, I think it's probably not

28:32

listening to my instincts, I

28:32

think, actually, or being, being

28:38

uh, being afraid not to speak a

28:38

truth or being afraid to not say

28:43

what I think or how I feel, or

28:43

that kind of thing. I think that

28:48

probably is the recurring thing.

28:48

As you know, there's obviously

28:51

technical mistakes that I think

28:51

everyone makes. But you know,

28:55

they can always be resolved, you

28:55

know, some it's in the wrong

28:57

place. So it's the wrong size.

28:57

Okay, we'll fix it. It might

29:00

mean this. It might mean that

29:00

might have to swallow my pride a

29:02

little bit, but but we can fix

29:02

it. But I think, fundamental

29:06

decisions where I know something

29:06

is not right. But I'm like, Oh,

29:11

it'll probably be okay. And then

29:11

it's not okay. And then all of a

29:14

sudden, it's quite a nuclear

29:14

problem, you know. And I think

29:20

that's happened. It's happened

29:20

quite a few times in my career

29:23

personally, where maybe I've

29:23

taken a job where I knew I kind

29:28

of shouldn't but I did anyway,

29:28

and then it just didn't work out

29:32

or worked collaborated with a

29:32

certain individual knowing this

29:38

doesn't quite feel right. But I

29:38

now I find I'll make it work and

29:42

then it just never does. Or on

29:42

projects, you know, where it's

29:46

like, okay, there's an idea that

29:46

we're going with and it's like,

29:48

okay, yeah, it just doesn't feel

29:48

right to me, but I don't want to

29:52

upset the team or I don't want

29:52

to upset the client or I'm just

29:55

gonna go along with it. And I

29:55

think when I get that sort of

29:58

slight burn feeling in the pit

29:58

in my stomach about something to

30:03

not ignore it? Because the

30:03

problem with it is sometimes it

30:06

means quite challenging

30:06

situation because you have to

30:11

uproot things or you have to

30:11

maybe upset people, or you have

30:14

to make the process more

30:14

difficult, or you have to delay

30:17

things. There's always a

30:17

consequence to it. But I think

30:21

ultimately, yeah, not listening

30:21

to my instincts, probably the

30:25

biggest mistake, there's quite a

30:25

few moments where I think that's

30:28

something I should have spoken

30:28

up about that sooner. And then

30:32

it became a problem or, or the

30:32

end result isn't quite what it

30:35

should be. And it's down to me,

30:35

because I didn't say what I

30:39

should have said at that time,

30:39

you know, so easy to blame

30:42

someone else in that situation?

30:42

You know, because you can sort

30:45

of say, well, you know, but you

30:45

know, it's not my fault. They

30:49

say, Yeah, but you didn't say

30:49

anything. So you were apathetic.

30:53

You know, you you're kind of

30:53

culpable in that in that regard,

30:56

I think. But, yeah, I think that

30:56

probably is quite an ambiguous

31:00

answer. Sort of politicians that

31:00

answer slowly. Yeah, I think for

31:05

me, that probably is always

31:05

always the biggest mistake so

31:09

that I don't listen to that

31:09

horrible feeling you get here.

31:15

Should designers be expected to so everything?

31:20

I think they can

31:20

have a go. I, you know, I think

31:24

I think that's what's amazing

31:24

about designers, when you meet

31:28

when you meet them from all

31:28

different walks of life. And you

31:31

get two designers talking about

31:31

design completely different

31:33

things. There's, and there's

31:33

that we sort of get along,

31:36

because again, it's that sort of

31:36

fascination with things. And and

31:40

I think, you know, when

31:40

designers get a bit older, maybe

31:44

get a bit grumpy, I don't think

31:44

I'm quite there yet, maybe

31:46

another 1020 years, and it'll be

31:46

there. But he gets sort of

31:50

grumpy, and you get a bit

31:50

cynical, but you're always still

31:53

up for the next brief. I think

31:53

that's it, every single new

31:56

briefs or new job, you no matter

31:56

how bad the last one was the

32:00

worst project that you know,

32:00

awful client, awful team,

32:05

everything went wrong, the thing

32:05

burned to the ground, you know,

32:09

you didn't end up in prison. The

32:09

next brief comes along, it's

32:14

like, right, this time, we're

32:14

going to nail it this time, it's

32:16

all going to be brilliant, you

32:16

know, and I think that's the

32:18

sort of spirit that designers

32:18

have. So I think, I don't think

32:22

designers can solve everything.

32:22

You know, you can't make a magic

32:25

wand, some things can't be

32:25

solved, you know, but I think

32:28

the intention is there. And I

32:28

think designers will always have

32:31

a go at solving a problem, give

32:31

them a problem, and a designer

32:34

will try and solve it. Because

32:34

that's the craft. It's

32:37

creativity, and it's problem

32:37

solving combined, or artistry

32:40

and problem solving combined.

32:40

You know, so yeah, I think

32:43

they'll have a bloody good go,

32:43

is what I would say.

32:47

So how do you see the future of design?

32:51

Yeah, it's, it's,

32:51

it's, it's a tricky one, I

32:57

think. I think it's things are

32:57

certainly getting faster and

33:00

more demanding. I think

33:00

technology plays a huge role.

33:03

And technology in comes, I

33:03

think, plays a huge role in

33:07

that. You know, in that. I mean,

33:07

if you look at not that long

33:11

ago, you know, probably what, 25

33:11

years ago, you know, when I was

33:17

sort of starting out at uni,

33:17

most things were done by hand,

33:22

you know, the email was, were

33:22

barely even existed, I think, in

33:27

25 years ago, it didn't exist,

33:27

except for an MIT and places

33:30

like that, you know, things were

33:30

done on the phone, things were

33:33

done on drawing board, I

33:33

remember my first work

33:37

experience project, you know,

33:37

and having this huge,

33:39

translucent, you know, ao, roll

33:39

that drawing, you know, and

33:45

doing everything with with fine

33:45

liner pens, you know, and then

33:48

you make a mistake, you got to

33:48

scrub it out with a little

33:50

scalpel and redo it, it ever

33:50

it's fix. It was such a long

33:55

process, and you overlay the

33:55

other layer, and you trace the

33:58

old ones and make amendments and

33:58

everything was enrolled up and

34:01

filed away. And, you know,

34:01

everything was dusty. And, and

34:04

it was it was a really, really

34:04

hands on crafted but but quite

34:09

laborious and lengthy process.

34:09

You know, and I went to uni,

34:13

and, you know, the rise of CAD,

34:13

you know, I remember in the

34:17

second year, you know, like

34:17

learning 3d Studio Max, and just

34:20

like my whole world was blown to

34:20

pieces, because I could create

34:24

this incredible Pixar, like, you

34:24

know, thing in an afternoon, you

34:29

know, how like, it's going to

34:29

save us so much time. And we can

34:32

do this, we can do that. And,

34:32

and I think that sort of it made

34:35

things a lot quicker. But then

34:35

of course what comes with that

34:39

the overhead of that is that you

34:39

have to be twice the amount of

34:42

work in the same amount of time

34:42

now. So then things become

34:45

faster and faster and faster.

34:45

And I think now, you know, with

34:48

the advent of things like BIM

34:48

process and things are much more

34:51

integrated in terms of a design

34:51

process, which makes our life

34:55

easier, and it means that we can

34:55

execute more accurate results.

35:00

And, and we can, you know,

35:00

mitigate mistakes and errors and

35:04

additional costs and things that

35:04

cause delays later in the

35:07

process, which is great. But it

35:07

means that the pressure is on

35:12

reducing budgets and reducing

35:12

time so that you can do more in

35:17

a small amount of time. I think,

35:17

I think in the future, that

35:21

there's a lot of benefits to

35:21

this, I think flexibility is a

35:24

thing. That's great. I mean, I

35:24

think the days of people being

35:28

judged on how long they spent at

35:28

their desk, gone, I think, you

35:32

know, the last two years in

35:32

particular, you know, with the

35:34

pandemic have proved that, you

35:34

know, the old school, the old

35:38

guard, it's all very much, if

35:38

you're not saying your desk,

35:40

you're not working, if people

35:40

work in my home, they're skiving

35:42

off, you know, our team, you

35:42

know, we're, I think more

35:46

productive during during that

35:46

period, you know, because they

35:51

were, they were really, really

35:51

focused on on what they were

35:53

doing. And I think the

35:53

communication methods, you know,

35:57

the teams being able to stay in

35:57

touch remotely, but all using

36:01

digital technology, you know,

36:01

as, as we are now and having

36:04

quite in depth workshops,

36:04

Creative Conversations, using

36:08

this comms technology. So I

36:08

think, I think there's sort of

36:10

international collaborations, I

36:10

think are going to be a lot more

36:14

in the future. But I think

36:14

people are sadly going to be

36:19

expected to do more for less,

36:19

you know, and I think, I think

36:22

that is something that's happening. And I think, as a design community, we can, we

36:24

need to try and protect, well,

36:30

the sort of sanity, I suppose,

36:30

and the well being of young

36:35

people starting out in the

36:35

industry, you know, so that

36:39

designers don't lose their

36:39

personality and don't, don't

36:42

lose the ability to well to

36:42

fiddle around and tinker with

36:46

things and to express themselves

36:46

through what they do take time

36:49

to sink into fiddle. You know, I

36:49

think I think that's really,

36:53

really important. But I think

36:53

the flexibility that is coming

36:59

in the future, or is happening

36:59

right now, I think will help

37:01

that, you know, but I think it'd

37:01

be interesting to see how

37:05

different people adopt it in

37:05

different people use it.

37:09

This is

37:09

brilliant. How do you relate to

37:12

design awards? Are they are they

37:12

important?

37:16

So a design award,

37:16

yes, awards, I'm not gonna lie,

37:21

it's nice to get awards, you

37:21

know, it's a bit of an ego trip

37:26

at times. But you know,

37:26

designers are also show offs.

37:30

That's one of the reasons I

37:30

became a designer, I want to

37:32

create things to go look how

37:32

good this thing is that I

37:34

created. You know, it's nice to

37:34

get recognition of that. And I

37:38

think, I think ego aside, I

37:38

think they are important, I

37:43

think that definitely, it's

37:43

definitely healthy to be judged

37:47

by your peers, I think not just

37:47

by your clients. So I think I

37:51

think they do do that to a

37:51

degree. I also think it's very

37:57

good for recruitment of new

37:57

talent. So if you can, you know,

38:03

if you can get the red dots and

38:03

the DNA days and things like

38:06

that, and, and sort of show the

38:06

world that you are of a creative

38:10

standard, then that means you

38:10

are going to, you're going to

38:13

get a lot of the best talent

38:13

knocking on your door. And I

38:15

think that's important. I mean,

38:15

I don't think that they're the

38:20

the only measure of the quality

38:20

output of studios by any means.

38:24

I think a lot of awards,

38:24

particularly in what in what we

38:27

do, they can be quite expensive,

38:27

you know, you have to pay quite

38:31

large fees to enter them. They

38:31

can also be there's a bit of a

38:35

trick, you know, you get the

38:35

right photos, you write the

38:37

right press release, you

38:37

position the project in a

38:40

certain way, because you know

38:40

that that body is going to like

38:44

that style. So I think they can

38:44

be manipulated to a degree. Not

38:49

all of them, you know, they work

38:49

in different ways in terms of

38:51

how their judge judging panels

38:51

work and their different

38:55

processes and things like that.

38:55

But yeah, I mean, I think

39:00

there's definitely a place for

39:00

them. For sure, in terms of

39:06

being judged by your peers,

39:06

which I think is always

39:08

important. Yeah.

39:11

What other

39:11

skills are needed in design?

39:16

I mean, I think,

39:16

yeah, coming back to what we're

39:19

talking about earlier, I think

39:19

curiosity is so important. I

39:23

think you got to be curious

39:23

about the world. You've got to

39:26

look want to understand behind

39:26

things, how things work, how

39:32

things function, what makes

39:32

things successful, or not, how

39:36

audiences work, you know, what

39:36

they respond to, you know,

39:39

particularly in what I do in in

39:39

interpretation or experiential

39:44

design. You know, how people

39:44

absorb information, what they

39:48

remember what they don't

39:48

remember what inspires them,

39:50

what moves them. I think that's

39:50

really important. As well as

39:55

that, as well as the all of the

39:55

other technical skills that come

39:59

with that and Um, you know, in

39:59

terms of there's a lot you need

40:02

to learn, particularly these days, you gotta learn a lot of software packages, you have to

40:04

be able to execute your work,

40:09

you can come up with an amazing

40:09

idea, if you can't execute it,

40:11

it's not really worth anything.

40:11

But again, that comes back to

40:14

the curiosity to learn different

40:14

techniques that you can express

40:17

your work in different ways. I

40:17

think that's important. And I

40:20

think artistic ability, I think,

40:20

is is very, very important. And

40:25

I think what I mean by that is

40:25

you don't necessarily need to be

40:28

able to draw, I think there's a

40:28

little bit of a misconception

40:32

between being very, very

40:32

creative and very artistic. And

40:39

just being able to draw

40:39

something immaculately, you

40:42

know, like a still life or

40:42

something like that. I think I

40:45

know quite a few people that are

40:45

incredible crafts, people, they

40:49

can draw something absolutely

40:49

beautifully, and immaculately

40:54

EFIS, effortlessly, but maybe

40:54

aren't the best, if you give

40:57

them the brief or all the blank

40:57

sheet of paper, then go you

41:02

know, come up with something,

41:02

conjure something out of

41:04

nothing, or respond to a brief

41:04

and, and look deeply into it and

41:08

understand that and come up with

41:08

something. And the flip side to

41:10

that is I know quite a few

41:10

people that are pretty terrible

41:13

at drawing. You know, they try

41:13

and draw a horse and it ends up

41:18

looking like a well, like a

41:18

goat, I don't know. But have

41:23

hugely creative and innovative

41:23

minds and come up with fantastic

41:28

ideas. And I think that's the

41:28

beauty of design, particularly

41:30

nowadays is that there's so many

41:30

tools that you can use to

41:33

express your ideas, that isn't

41:33

just reliant on you being able

41:39

to draw your idea in order to

41:39

express it. I think it's it's a

41:43

very useful skill to have. But I

41:43

think being artistic and being

41:49

creative and innovative. So that

41:49

you can take the bits and pieces

41:55

and the tools at your disposal,

41:55

and conjure something and

41:58

express something through those.

41:58

You know, and I think that's

42:02

what design is, again, it's it's

42:02

taking things that exist and

42:06

rearranging them to create

42:06

something, or taking knowledge

42:10

of things research, looking at

42:10

things in in granular detail,

42:15

and really fundamentally getting

42:15

to the essence and the core of

42:18

what something should be of a

42:18

problem or an issue or a

42:21

challenge or an objective. And

42:21

then going okay, well this

42:25

answer is relevant for these

42:25

reasons. So I think there's a

42:27

rigour involved in that, and

42:27

then having the skills, whether

42:31

it be hand drawing, or CAD, or

42:31

you know, montage or whatever it

42:34

is, to be able to clearly

42:34

express that and communicate it.

42:37

So I think they're the kind of

42:37

fundamental skills, and

42:41

obviously, the execution that

42:41

varies greatly depending on

42:43

which discipline of design

42:43

you're practising. But I think

42:47

that processes always is always

42:47

true, I think.

42:53

Excellent.

42:53

So how do you maintain your

42:55

enthusiasm and inspiration?

43:00

I think it is hard

43:00

at times. It's a challenging

43:05

industry, and when it really is,

43:05

but no, I think it's just the

43:09

variety. I think that's what it

43:09

is, you know, what's interesting

43:13

is a lot of designers when they

43:13

find an agency or practice that

43:18

they like, tend to stay there

43:18

for quite a long time. Because

43:21

you're not, you're you're not

43:21

just shovelling coal into A into

43:25

an engine, you know, or, you

43:25

know, spinning in a wheel, you

43:30

every single day is a new

43:30

challenge. Every single client

43:33

is different. Every brief is

43:33

different. There's always new

43:36

people that you're collaborating

43:36

with. So it's like having a new

43:40

job, you know, every few months

43:40

when you get a new project. And

43:44

obviously, you know, the most

43:44

senior up you go, you're looking

43:47

at new briefs, and you

43:47

collaborate is every single day,

43:50

you know, so there's, there's

43:50

that infinite variety in it. And

43:53

as that's happening, the the

43:53

industry itself is evolving, and

43:58

it's changing. And there's new

43:58

techniques that people are

44:01

discovering, and new ways of

44:01

doing things and new problems to

44:05

solve new perspectives and new

44:05

ideas, and I think it's

44:10

constantly refreshing itself,

44:10

our industry. And I think that's

44:14

what that's what makes it great.

44:14

And I think it's being open to

44:17

that, that I think keeps

44:17

enthusiasm. It's very easy to

44:21

close off and say no, that's how

44:21

I design and I've done it for 20

44:24

years. That's how I'm always

44:24

going to do it. Being open to

44:28

that, again, it comes back to

44:28

that collaborative attitude. To

44:33

keep things interesting and keep

44:33

things fresh.

44:37

But do you believe there's a tendency of things that are looking the same

44:38

in a way?

44:42

Yeah, I think, I

44:42

think very much so. And I think

44:46

it can come from what sort of

44:46

trends fashion Zeitgeist call

44:51

it, whatever you want to call

44:51

it, but I think it can come from

44:54

a lot of tools in our industry.

44:54

I remember, you know, when I

44:59

graduate At then it was the sort

44:59

of it was the rise of, you know,

45:03

the Wii re rendering and NURBS

45:03

modelling and all this kind of

45:08

funky stuff. But everything sort

45:08

of started to look that

45:12

everything started to go a bit

45:12

Weebly. You know, and all these

45:16

kind of organic, beautiful

45:16

organic shapes, everything

45:19

started to look like a 3d Max

45:19

render. And that was certainly

45:24

something that happened for a

45:24

long time. And I think I think a

45:27

lot of architects, you know,

45:27

developed entire aesthetics from

45:32

this, you know, created

45:32

beautiful, stunning, amazing

45:36

things. I'm not, I'm not sure of

45:36

their sustainability

45:39

credentials, but you know,

45:39

that's that's something else.

45:42

But, yeah, and I think there can

45:42

be a tendency to do that, in

45:45

that to follow trends. And I

45:45

think I think a lot of, again,

45:52

maybe I'm getting grumpier, as

45:52

I'm getting more, you know, as

45:56

I'm getting more experienced in

45:56

my career, but I think certainly

45:58

at creative director level,

45:58

there is a tendency to, to

46:01

bullshit, I think, I think there

46:01

is that I think there's a

46:04

tendency to use words, but not

46:04

actually, that don't actually

46:10

have any meaning. You know, I

46:10

think this is a corporate thing

46:13

as well, like there's management

46:13

speak, you know, things like

46:15

that. But I think there is a

46:15

there is a tendency at creative

46:19

director level to do this, to

46:19

use these little tricks and to

46:22

use these little things that are

46:22

sort of Oh, yes, that's clever.

46:26

Oh, yes. I never thought well

46:26

about that, you know, like, and

46:31

it's sort of, you know, to the

46:31

client, you're pulling a rabbit

46:35

out of a hat. But actually, no,

46:35

you just said that same thing to

46:37

last 10 clients. And it's, it's

46:37

the same thing and using sort of

46:41

industry buzzwords, and I'm sort

46:41

of trying to think of one off

46:45

the top of my head, but I'm not

46:45

sure I can at the moment. We're

46:48

all sort of, you know, people

46:48

that the metaverse is the latest

46:51

one, actually, everyone's saying, oh, yeah, we need to consider what we're doing in the

46:52

metaverse, but they sort of

46:55

leave it there. And it's like,

46:55

okay, well, but what does that

46:58

mean? Let's break that down a

46:58

bit more. Let's be designers.

47:00

Let's use our analytical minds

47:00

to break it down. Oh, no, but I

47:03

just mean, no, just do something

47:03

in the metaverse, I mean, the

47:06

digital, digital landscape, and

47:06

there's just more words for it,

47:10

right? There's not the actual

47:10

beef as to what it really is,

47:13

and what it means and how we can

47:13

use it and how we can innovate

47:16

with it. Because as a designer,

47:16

I'm like, No, but we need to

47:18

make something. We need to

47:18

create something. We can't just

47:22

say something. You know, I think

47:22

it's it's the sort of, I guess,

47:28

creative directors equivalent of

47:28

when most people taste wine, you

47:32

know, and he's like, wine words,

47:32

you know, it's like, oh, yeah,

47:35

well, that's, that's quite

47:35

Jammy, isn't it? No, it's quite

47:38

this, it's got that. And it's

47:38

sort of you know, that it's

47:40

close enough to the mark. But

47:40

you're, you're using it, because

47:45

it's going to hide the fact that

47:45

you don't really know what

47:47

you're talking about, you know.

47:47

And I think there is a little

47:51

bit of a tendency to that. And I

47:51

think trying to cut through that

47:54

is, can be can be difficult. But

47:54

I think more often than not

47:58

those terms, or those, that that

47:58

approach to creativity can make

48:04

things quite generic, because

48:04

you're not cutting to the quick

48:07

of what it is you're trying to

48:07

do, and then expand out from

48:11

that. And that's when you create

48:11

things that are truly unique and

48:14

make a difference. You know, it

48:14

can just be about someone trying

48:18

to sound clever in a meeting.

48:18

And then they leave the meeting.

48:21

And it was oh, that was really

48:21

clever, wasn't it? And then, you

48:23

know, in the next meeting, when

48:23

you sit down with engineers and

48:26

things like that, they're like, oh, no, no, we're not gonna do that cuz it didn't work. Anyway,

48:27

we're going to do this. And it's

48:30

sort of forgotten, you know,

48:30

because they were in another

48:32

meetings, saying the metaverse

48:32

again. But yeah, I think I don't

48:37

think there's anything new to be

48:37

honest. I think there's just

48:39

more ammunition, there's more

48:39

oxygen, there's more bullshit

48:43

terms that you can use now.

48:43

Things that are imagined that

48:46

haven't quite happened yet. And

48:46

you mentioned it in a meeting

48:49

and you sound cool and clever.

48:49

You know, and then the meeting

48:52

finishes, and then you go to

48:52

another meeting, you know, I

48:56

must admit, I've done it myself

48:56

quite a few times where you're

48:58

in a bit of a jam in a meeting,

48:58

and you're like, oh, yeah, we

49:01

should consider the metaverse.

49:01

We have what have you. But yeah,

49:05

then I cry myself to sleep.

49:07

We have this

49:07

defence tool to use when we are

49:09

squeezed a little bit but yes,

49:09

it shouldn't be overused

49:13

sometimes. So what is the single

49:13

piece of advice you would give

49:19

to anyone starting out as a

49:19

designer and as well? That the

49:22

advice to a client

49:26

Yeah, I again, I

49:26

mean, there's, there's so many

49:31

things to say. But I think it I

49:31

think collaboration I think it

49:36

does come down to that. Don't be

49:36

afraid to put your own ego aside

49:42

and collaborate with someone

49:42

else. And and listen and learn I

49:47

think for particularly for young

49:47

designers, I think it's so it's

49:52

so so fundamental to don't don't

49:52

think that you're the you know,

49:56

God's gift. I think I did when I

49:56

When I graduated, I definitely

50:01

thought it was God's gift. And

50:01

you know, yeah, okay, it might

50:04

have got me a job or two, but I

50:04

think it, I think it did hold me

50:09

back. Ultimately, because I was

50:09

a bit resistant to criticism, I

50:14

was a bit resistant to

50:14

collaboration. And the best the

50:18

best steps I've made the best

50:18

work that that I've done with

50:23

with my team has always been

50:23

from that it's always been

50:27

putting my ego aside and

50:27

collaborating. And then, you

50:31

know, the more kind of the more

50:31

you advance in your career, the

50:33

more you champion that, you

50:33

know, the more we the start to

50:37

build teams around that ethos

50:37

and yields. Good results. And I

50:43

think it's the same for clients,

50:43

I think, you know, it's for them

50:47

to because it can be really

50:47

daunting for clients. I think

50:50

hiring design agencies, you

50:50

know, I think, especially if

50:54

it's something that they're new

50:54

to, I think when we work with a

50:56

lot of museums, they're very

50:56

used to it, you know, because

50:58

they have in house design teams,

50:58

and they also they commissioned

51:01

designers all the time. They

51:01

know the drill, they know the

51:04

process. But I think when you're

51:04

doing when clients are doing it

51:07

for the first time, it can be

51:07

incredibly daunting. And I think

51:11

they sort of don't they it can

51:11

be hard to know, for them where

51:14

the line is, do we just let the

51:14

designer do what they want? Or

51:17

do we micromanage them. And I

51:17

think the other point is, it's a

51:20

balance, you have to be able to

51:20

listen to each other. You know,

51:22

you can't let your designer run

51:22

amok and just do you know what

51:26

the hell they want to do,

51:26

because it'll be chaos. But at

51:28

the same time, you can't, you

51:28

can't stifle their creativity

51:32

and, and their expertise by by

51:32

dictating to them. So I think

51:37

it's, it's, it's a collaborative

51:37

relationship, giving clear

51:41

direction, but then allowing

51:41

that to be challenged. And I

51:45

think that works both ways that

51:45

works for a designer, onto the

51:47

client, and from a client on

51:47

onto a designer, and that

51:51

relationship is so important. I

51:51

think that's another good piece

51:55

of advice is building those

51:55

relationships. Because the

51:59

moment you have that

51:59

relationship, you can kind of

52:01

speak your truth. And I think

52:01

that's I think that's important,

52:06

you know, the age we live in

52:06

now, I think truth is something

52:09

that is hard to come by, I

52:09

think, you know, coming back to

52:13

the kind of creative director

52:13

bullshit buzzwords, but, but I

52:17

think trying to get to truth is

52:17

really, really important. And

52:21

sometimes the truth is difficult

52:21

because it means we can't afford

52:25

this. We don't have enough time

52:25

to do this. So it's not right,

52:27

or it's not this or it's not

52:27

that but once you get to it, you

52:31

can then think, Okay, well, what

52:31

can we do? And how can we

52:34

innovate with this? And how can

52:34

we do something incredible? You

52:38

know, and again, that's, that's

52:38

designer and clients

52:41

responsibility to get to that

52:41

truth.

52:45

That was

52:45

wonderful. Really, really? And

52:48

what is finally, what is the

52:48

most important thing you have

52:51

discovered as a designer?

52:55

And I think it's

52:55

linked to that last point, I

52:58

think, I think it is, I think

52:58

it's to that design in

53:04

particular, you have to find

53:04

truths in it, you have to find

53:08

tangible things, because you're

53:08

making something at the end of

53:12

it, you know? And I think not

53:12

not the design can't be, you

53:18

know, high art as well, not that

53:18

it can't ask questions. But

53:22

those questions again, they come

53:22

from something really, they come

53:24

from putting your finger right

53:24

on, this is what we're trying to

53:27

say, this is what we're trying

53:27

to achieve. What is the best

53:31

answer for that? And I think I

53:31

think for me, that's kind of it

53:37

always comes back to that, you

53:37

know, and all of the things that

53:39

you talked about, about being

53:39

curious and about being

53:42

collaborative and about being

53:42

challenging, and about being

53:46

passionate about being flexible,

53:46

all of these things, they're all

53:50

ways to get to that truth, and

53:50

not being afraid of what that

53:55

truth is, again, you know, you

53:55

asked me what my my sort of

53:58

biggest mistake was, it's, it's

53:58

ignoring that truth. It's not

54:02

listening to that feeling where

54:02

I kind of know that this is the

54:06

way actually is but I'm for

54:06

whatever reason, I'm afraid to

54:08

say it. So I think for me,

54:08

that's probably the biggest

54:14

lesson learn in it, that it all

54:14

it all seems to all be around

54:18

that, you know, but it's not

54:18

easy. It's a difficult thing to

54:22

get to. But I think the creative

54:22

process is getting to that. And

54:26

then what design does design

54:26

allows you to expand it and

54:31

express it as a thing, whether

54:31

it's a space or a product or a

54:35

experience or, you know, an

54:35

aesthetic or you know, whatever

54:39

it is, but it's got to come from

54:39

that truth. If you don't have

54:41

that you will not You're not

54:41

going to get anywhere. I think

54:45

that's what it is and that it

54:45

has to be getting to that that

54:49

fundamental essence of truth of

54:49

of what what what it is the hell

54:55

that we're trying to achieve,

54:55

you know, through a project

54:59

Yeah, I I think that's probably

54:59

the most important lesson I've

55:05

learned. You know, maybe it does

55:05

come back to raise a blank sheet

55:08

of paper. I think it does.

55:08

Because there's no truth in it.

55:11

There's like, what is it? It's

55:11

nothing. There's nothing there.

55:14

You know? Yeah. So maybe he was

55:14

right. I think he might have

55:18

been

55:19

the fine artist would say you have to make the Burnt Umber you know,

55:20

you're a bit of brown and you

55:23

know,

55:23

well, yeah, yeah.

55:23

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

55:27

Well,

55:27

extremely articulate. Really

55:32

enjoyed this conversation. And

55:32

thank you so much for coming.

55:36

Thank you. It's,

55:36

it's, it's been my pleasure. I

55:39

hope I didn't ramble on too much

55:39

and make people depressed. No,

55:47

thank you very much. You're

55:47

welcome. It's yeah, it's been

55:49

great.