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0:30

It's the Smuckers Uncrustables podcast

0:33

with your host Uncrustables. Okay,

0:36

today's guest is rough around the edges.

0:38

Please welcome Crust. Thanks for

0:40

having me. Today's topic, he's round

0:43

with soft pillowy bread. Hey. Filled with

0:45

delicious PB&J. Are you talking

0:47

about yourself? And you can take him anywhere.

0:50

Why'd you invite— And we are out

0:52

of time. Are you really cutting

0:54

me off? Uncrustables are the best

0:56

part of the sandwich. Sorry,

0:58

Crust.

0:59

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1:37

On the morning of February 4th, 2015, 18-year-old

1:41

Sarah Graham didn't show up for her morning

1:43

shift at Walmart in Pembroke, North

1:46

Carolina. A few hours later,

1:48

her van was found abandoned in a field halfway

1:50

between Walmart and her home in Fairmont,

1:53

North Carolina. There were no signs

1:55

of struggle, and the doors were locked manually.

1:58

Despite a thorough investigation, Sarah

2:01

remains missing, and authorities are

2:03

still searching for her. On June 18,

2:07

2020, more than 1,000 miles away from North Carolina,

2:09

22-year-old Caitlin Kelly was

2:12

reported missing from Shaw Knell, Wisconsin.

2:14

No one had seen or heard from her since around 3 a.m.

2:17

on June 17. An extensive

2:19

search for Caitlin began, but tragically, almost

2:22

a year later, her remains were discovered.

2:25

While no official cause or manner of death has been

2:27

revealed, many sources suggest

2:29

that Caitlin was a homicide victim. Investigators

2:33

continue looking into the circumstances surrounding

2:35

her disappearance and her death. Hey

3:06

everyone, welcome back to Detective Perspective. My

3:09

name is Derek Lavasser. I'm a licensed private

3:11

investigator and former police detective. Each

3:14

week I'll be covering an unsolved case in story

3:16

format. I'll then give you my perspective

3:18

on the investigation and provide contact

3:21

information for the individuals or

3:23

organizations connected to the case so

3:25

that if you have any tips, you can contact

3:28

them directly and maybe you can assist

3:30

in solving a case. And if you're someone

3:32

who's interested in true crime, specifically unsolved

3:34

cases, and you'd like to hear my opinion

3:37

on those investigations, please consider

3:39

subscribing whether you're watching on YouTube or

3:41

listening on Apple Podcasts, Spotify,

3:44

or whatever platform you use.

3:47

So tonight's case, as you will

3:49

probably notice, we are covering

3:52

two different investigations. And

3:55

normally, I wouldn't do

3:57

that. I like to devote

3:59

each case.

3:59

case to one specific

4:02

victim, unless the

4:04

victims are connected in some way. We

4:07

did it a few weeks ago with the

4:09

serial killer case where although

4:12

the victims didn't necessarily know

4:14

each other, it does appear they were all

4:16

killed by the same person. So

4:18

in that particular situation, it's

4:21

more than appropriate

4:23

to cover them together because there may be similar

4:26

MOs within the different investigations

4:29

that may lead us to the suspect,

4:31

the killer, so that we could solve the

4:33

case. That is not one of those situations

4:35

tonight. As you saw in the teaser, these

4:38

two victims were over a thousand

4:41

miles away from each other and

4:43

not really in the same time period.

4:46

But the reason I'm covering them together

4:49

will make sense in a second. As you will see

4:51

tonight, both Sarah Graham and Caitlin Kelly are

4:53

both indigenous women and their stories

4:55

have not received much media attention,

4:57

although they have been covered on a couple podcasts.

5:00

And when I first started Detective Perspective,

5:03

the number one priority I had for the show was

5:05

to give exposure to the cases that

5:08

were more obscure and

5:10

maybe didn't get the attention they deserve, to

5:12

give a voice to the voiceless. And

5:14

I've always felt this way about these particular

5:17

types of victims, these types of cases, but

5:19

I've also heard from you guys, both in the comments

5:22

and in some of the DMs, and

5:24

you've asked that I cover more cases like this.

5:27

So again, although these cases aren't connected,

5:30

they do share one unfortunate

5:32

similarity, which is they haven't

5:34

gotten the exposure they deserve, which

5:37

is why tonight I'd like to shed light on

5:39

both of their stories and give them the recognition

5:41

they deserve. So with that out of the way, let's

5:44

dive into this week's cases. Sarah

5:46

Graham was born on April 1, 1996. And

5:49

while Sarah was a member of the Lumbee tribe, she

5:52

did not live in the Lumbee territory when she was

5:54

growing up. According to

5:56

the Red Justice podcast, Sarah's parents

5:58

separated when she was young her mother

6:00

then raised Sarah and her brother in Texas.

6:03

This meant that Sarah didn't have much contact with her dad's

6:06

side of the family until she was a teenager. After

6:08

the separation, Sarah's dad Hubert Graham

6:10

married a woman named Connie. She

6:13

had at least one son who became Sarah's stepbrother.

6:16

Hubert worked as a Sergeant at the Robeson County

6:18

Sheriff's Office, and Connie also

6:20

worked there as a sheriff's deputy. In

6:22

the spring of 2014, Sarah graduated from high school.

6:26

That fall, she moved from Texas to

6:29

Fairmont, North Carolina, so she could live

6:31

with Hubert and Connie. After

6:33

her move to North Carolina, Sarah seemed

6:35

to be doing well. Federal officials

6:37

later mentioned that she was happy in making friends.

6:41

She was described as, quote, shy until you

6:43

got to know her, and, quote, the kindest,

6:45

sweetest person. Sarah

6:47

found a job at the Walmart in Pembroke, North

6:49

Carolina. She was scheduled to work

6:51

there at 7 a.m. on February 4th, 2015. However,

6:56

she didn't show up for work that morning. At 1215

6:59

p.m. that afternoon, someone

7:01

called the Robeson County Sheriff's Office to report

7:03

a Chevy Astro van parked

7:05

in the wheat field on East McDonald Road near

7:08

Chicken Road in Fairmont. The person

7:10

who saw the van mentioned that they didn't spot anyone

7:12

in or around the vehicle. When

7:14

the police arrived to check it out, they didn't

7:17

find any damage to the van or signs of struggle

7:19

nearby, like footprints or broken

7:21

ground.

7:22

Furthermore, the van's doors were locked

7:24

manually with a key.

7:26

The Robeson County Sheriff later told WRAL,

7:29

quote, the vehicle looked like it just pulled

7:31

up there and parked. The police

7:33

checked the license plate and found out that the van belonged

7:35

to Sarah's dad, Hubert. They reached

7:37

out to Sarah's family and learned that they had no idea

7:40

she was even missing. They thought she had been

7:42

at work all morning. The family explained

7:44

that on the night of February 3rd, Sarah

7:46

and her dad spent the night watching TV together.

7:49

The next morning at 6.30 a.m., Sarah

7:51

left her home in Fairmont and started driving to

7:54

her job in Pembroke, which was about a

7:56

20-minute drive away. She was supposed to

7:58

start work at 7 a.m. but she

8:00

never showed up. The police determined that the

8:02

van was found abandoned four miles away from

8:04

Sarah's house, which was also about

8:06

halfway between her home and Walmart. After

8:09

discovering the van and finding out that Sarah hadn't

8:11

gone to work, 50 officers

8:13

from different law enforcement agencies, including

8:15

the county sheriffs, Fayetteville police,

8:18

canine officers, and the FBI,

8:21

were sent to look around the area where the van was located.

8:24

They were trying to find signs of Sarah or anyone

8:26

who might have seen or heard from her. They

8:28

also used helicopters from the state highway

8:30

patrol to search a nearby wooded area

8:33

as well. When Sarah wasn't located,

8:35

authorities set up a command post and the search

8:38

for Sarah continued with multiple agencies.

8:40

They kept looking into the fields and wooded spots around

8:43

Robinson County, but there were no signs

8:45

of Sarah anywhere. The county

8:47

sheriff told WRAL News that

8:49

investigators had no reason to believe that Sarah

8:52

ran away from home. He said, quote,

8:54

there's been no trouble with her dad or stepmother.

8:57

Everything was going good. It's not like

8:59

her to be doing, very unlike her to do

9:01

this. Sarah's great uncle

9:03

further said Sarah was a friendly person who used

9:06

to text her friends all day.

9:07

She was known to stay out of trouble and her

9:09

disappearance was very unusual.

9:12

On February 10th, Hubert told WMBF

9:15

that he was lost and he had no idea

9:17

how to deal with the situation. He

9:19

explained that Sarah's disappearance happened suddenly.

9:22

One night they were watching TV together and the next

9:24

morning she vanished on her way to work.

9:27

He said, quote, I can't even describe

9:29

it. It's kind of like a daze. Days

9:32

go by and you're constantly questioning and asking

9:34

if there's something else I can do. He

9:36

also mentioned that he had stepped back from the investigation

9:39

because he knew he couldn't control his emotions.

9:42

Hubert said at this point he didn't care where Sarah

9:44

was or who she was with. He

9:47

just wanted to hear that she was safe. A

9:49

week after Sarah's disappearance, over 140

9:51

volunteers searched the area where

9:54

her van was found. They also

9:56

scoured the area between her house and

9:58

the Walmart where she worked. But

10:00

they found no sign of her anywhere. Investigators

10:04

also looked into Sarah's cell phone records and her

10:06

computer. However they didn't reveal

10:08

any new information. Now I want to weigh

10:10

in here real quick. From what I've gathered

10:12

and from what our research has gathered, yes

10:15

there's been no information from either the cell phone

10:17

data or her browser history

10:19

or her chat room history, whatever she was doing

10:21

online. But I do always question

10:23

this and not in a bad way either. Are

10:26

they only saying that because they don't want to release all

10:28

that information to the public because

10:30

it is an active investigation? That's

10:32

possible. But it seems like from what I

10:34

can tell they've been pretty forthright with everything

10:36

so more than likely what they're saying

10:39

is true. Although I do always caution you

10:41

guys to read between the lines when

10:43

we hear from law enforcement and they give

10:45

statements, you know, what are they not saying? Here

10:47

unfortunately what

10:50

we may have is a situation where they're

10:52

being honest with us and they really didn't get

10:54

any new information from her computer

10:57

records or her phone records. Now

10:59

in March the FBI officially joined the investigation

11:02

and began sharing the missing person poster. According

11:05

to the Robinsonian, sightings started coming

11:07

in from different states like Florida, Georgia

11:10

and Tennessee, but none of them led

11:12

to Sarah. In late March of 2015, as

11:15

the investigation continued, Sarah's

11:18

stepmother Connie was fired from her

11:20

job as a sheriff's deputy. Of course,

11:22

many people wondered if this termination had anything

11:25

to do with Sarah's disappearance. The sheriff

11:27

soon told WMBF News that her termination

11:30

was a quote, personal matter. Okay,

11:32

so I'm sure you're all looking at

11:34

your screen right now or listening to this saying, Derek,

11:37

personal matter, what the hell

11:39

does that mean? The truth of

11:42

the situation is I don't know. It

11:44

could mean a gamut of things. Could

11:46

it have something to do with Sarah's disappearance?

11:49

Of course.

11:50

But the spectrum of what that could

11:52

mean is vast. It

11:54

could be a situation where maybe

11:57

they feel like Connie could be involved.

12:00

the extreme, although I feel

12:02

like if that were the case there may be some mention

12:04

of it. Or it could be a situation

12:07

where Connie was using her access

12:10

to different records and different utilities

12:12

within the department. She was using

12:15

that for personal reasons like looking

12:17

into Sarah's case. For example, if there were records

12:20

within the internal databases that they

12:22

had that were correspondence going

12:24

back between the investigator and the FBI

12:27

that she shouldn't have had access to but was

12:30

looking into and maybe printing out those documents

12:32

for family members or friends,

12:35

that is obviously a breach of her responsibilities

12:38

and that dissemination of personal

12:40

or I guess private information

12:43

within the police department could be a fireable

12:45

offense. Now those

12:47

two scenarios aside, it

12:49

could also and maybe more than

12:52

likely completely unrelated to Sarah's case

12:54

at all. There's a possibility that

12:57

Connie was just doing something that

12:59

she shouldn't have been doing and

13:01

it may have been going on even before Sarah's

13:03

disappearance but it wasn't

13:05

caught until now. Either way, I

13:08

don't know if we'll ever know but I do think

13:10

the fact that the sheriff

13:12

came out quickly after and said it was a quote personal

13:15

matter may be an indication

13:18

that that was his way of letting

13:20

them know that this wasn't related to Sarah's

13:22

disappearance and whatever was going

13:25

on with Connie, it was something that

13:27

didn't need to be disclosed to the public. Now

13:30

when asked if he could provide an update on Sarah's case,

13:32

the sheriff said no, explaining that

13:34

sharing specific details could harm the investigation's

13:37

integrity and wouldn't be in Sarah's

13:39

best interest. He said detectives

13:41

from the Robinson County Sheriff's Office and

13:44

the FBI were still working tirelessly

13:46

to find Sarah. Now after Connie's

13:48

termination, WRAL reported

13:51

that a source close to the investigation told

13:53

them Connie was considered a suspect

13:55

in the case.

13:56

The source further claimed that Connie may be arrested

13:59

and charged very soon.

13:59

However, this is

14:02

the only article that states this information

14:04

and because it came from an anonymous source

14:06

and no arrests have ever been made, it's

14:08

possible that this information wasn't accurate.

14:11

And that's kind of what I was saying earlier, where

14:14

we don't really know what happened. This

14:16

could have been someone just speculating and putting it

14:18

out there as factual information. But

14:20

at this point, we just really don't

14:23

know. Now I will say this, according

14:25

to the Red Justice podcast, after Connie

14:27

was terminated, Hubert left the sheriff's

14:30

office voluntarily and began working

14:32

at a police station in another North Carolina

14:34

town. So this could play into

14:36

this, right? Could this be a situation

14:39

where Connie and Hubert

14:41

were maybe conducting their own investigation

14:44

as they shouldn't have been and maybe

14:46

gathering files and looking at photos

14:49

or reviewing witness statements when they

14:51

shouldn't have been? Again, you don't want

14:53

people who are personally connected to these cases working

14:56

them. So they could have been doing things that they

14:58

weren't supposed to be doing. And Hubert deciding

15:00

to leave the department voluntarily may

15:02

have been an indirect showing

15:05

of support for Connie

15:08

by leaving the sheriff's department that just fired

15:10

her for something that in his

15:13

eyes wasn't necessarily the wrong thing to do.

15:16

So after all this took place, the investigation

15:18

into Sarah's disappearance continued. And

15:20

on February 3, 2016, one

15:23

year after Sarah went missing, the

15:25

FBI and the Robeson County Sheriff's Office

15:28

held a news conference. They offered

15:30

a $5,000 reward for information

15:32

about Sarah's case and asked anyone

15:34

who saw the white van on the morning she disappeared

15:37

to come forward. At that time, authorities

15:40

revealed that they knew Sarah disappeared within a 15-minute

15:42

window. They explained that witnesses

15:45

saw the van in the field at 6.45 a.m. 15 minutes after Sarah

15:49

left her house. Now authorities

15:51

further said they believed Sarah was a victim

15:53

of foul play and hadn't disappeared

15:56

on her own accord. The county sheriff

15:58

mentioned that they, along with the FBI, were not allowed to be in the FBI

16:01

continued to file leads, but he

16:03

didn't disclose what information they had received.

16:06

He also said there were no persons of interest

16:08

at this point. After the conference was

16:10

over, authorities went to the Fairmont area where

16:12

Sarah went missing and they stopped motorists

16:15

and distributed flyers about Sarah. And

16:17

I think this was a way of letting the public know that

16:19

although it had been over a year, they were

16:21

still very active in this case and weren't

16:24

above going out there and handing out

16:26

flyers to vehicles as they passed by because

16:29

you never know what could come from those

16:31

leads that develop as these people are

16:33

looking at these posters and being reminded of

16:35

what happened to Sarah and the area in which it took place,

16:38

you never know if that's going to trigger a memory. Now

16:40

around that same time, Sarah's father Hubert

16:43

had an interview with WMBF News. He

16:46

said, quote, I'm still sitting waiting by the phone.

16:49

When you get phone calls from strange numbers, you answer

16:51

it. And for me, I'm expecting to hear someone

16:53

say Sarah's here or it be Sarah and

16:55

her say she's all right. As the

16:57

years passed, the investigation slowed

16:59

down and there were few updates shared with

17:01

the public. In February of 2022, the

17:04

FBI released a podcast

17:07

episode about Sarah's disappearance. The

17:09

agents in the podcast mentioned investigators

17:11

had followed many leads and talked to a

17:13

lot of people. One agent said,

17:15

quote, everything we've learned about Sarah tells

17:17

us she did not take off on her own. She's

17:20

responsible. She had a job at Walmart

17:22

and was considered a dependable employee. The

17:25

agent also shared that while most people they

17:27

talked to had been helpful, they believe

17:29

someone very close to her wasn't telling them everything

17:31

they knew. The agent said they found a lot

17:34

of evidence, but they were still needing the missing

17:36

piece to bring Sarah home. That

17:38

same month, Hubert talked to ABC 15 News.

17:41

He expressed his frustration, saying he felt police

17:44

weren't treating him well and weren't sharing

17:46

much information with him. Hubert mentioned

17:48

that there were people out there spreading rumors and making

17:50

suggestions that he or his wife knew

17:52

something or had something to do with Sarah's

17:54

disappearance. He said that was as

17:57

far from the truth as it could be, and we would

17:59

be happy to answer answer any questions people

18:01

had. Hubert further told ABC 15

18:03

News that he had chosen not to actively

18:06

take part in the investigation due to

18:08

his background as a detective and law

18:10

enforcement officer. He didn't want anyone

18:12

to think he was trying to influence the investigation.

18:15

However, Hubert did make some observations

18:17

from the sidelines. He explained, quote,

18:20

When we got our vehicle back, there wasn't no

18:22

blood in the vehicle. Nothing in there.

18:25

There wasn't no signs of no struggle or

18:27

nothing that I've seen. When I went

18:29

back home that evening, looked around the house,

18:31

I didn't see nothing around the house that showed no

18:34

signs or struggle or anything like that. I

18:36

ain't going to say I'm the best detective, but

18:38

I am a seasoned detective at that time.

18:40

I was now there's a few things I

18:42

want to say here about this and I'll save

18:44

it for the end of the perspective, but it does all tie

18:47

into Connie being fired Hubert's

18:50

involvement with the investigation and

18:52

obviously the relationship between the

18:55

actual investigators working the case and

18:57

the family. Clearly there's a disconnect there on

19:00

both sides. They're kind of throwing shade at each other.

19:02

This is not good, obviously.

19:04

So we have to really break this down

19:07

and dissect it at the end of this. Now on

19:09

June 8th, 2023 FBI

19:11

agents along with the North Carolina

19:13

Troopers Association canine unit conducted

19:15

a new search for Sarah. They didn't reveal

19:18

why they were searching again or where they

19:20

were looking. Then five days later

19:22

on June 13th,

19:23

the FBI and the Robinson County Sheriff's

19:25

office conducted a state court authorized

19:27

search of Sarah's house. WMBF

19:31

reported that investigators were also trying

19:33

to figure out if Sarah had actually left the

19:35

house on the morning of February

19:37

4th, 2015. At

19:39

that time, the sheriff gave an update stating quote,

19:42

we will not stop. Many of the people who are

19:44

working on Sarah's case have been working since day

19:46

one to locate her. We are focused

19:49

as ever to find Sarah and to bring her justice.

19:52

I believe there are people in our community who

19:54

have information that can help us. Please

19:56

come forward. Unfortunately,

19:58

this is the most recent. an update we have in

20:01

Sarah's case and as of today

20:03

she is still missing and investigators

20:05

are still searching for answers.

20:10

Alright so let's get into the perspective here

20:12

I said I wanted to come back to this and I think most

20:15

of you know where this one's gonna go. Here's

20:18

the problem with Sarah's case. A very

20:20

small window from the time that

20:22

she left her home to the time

20:25

when her vehicle was seen approximately 15

20:28

minutes. That's an issue

20:30

because that makes it a

20:32

very small window in which someone

20:35

could have attacked her or someone

20:37

could have picked her up without anybody

20:40

seeing what had happened and

20:42

it wouldn't make sense based on the

20:45

character that

20:46

has kind of been created for

20:49

Sarah by her peers that

20:51

suggests she was a very responsible person and she

20:53

really didn't have anything going on in her personal

20:55

life that would suggest you would just

20:58

run away for no reason at all or take

21:00

off with someone without letting anyone

21:02

in her in her close circle know

21:05

that she was going to do this. As

21:08

they said they had cell phone records

21:10

and browser history computer history nothing

21:13

suggested that there were transmissions

21:16

or correspondences going on with

21:19

another individual that maybe she would have met

21:21

up with on that day. So it gets

21:23

us back to the core of this investigation right

21:25

which is the the narrative that's been conveyed

21:28

by the people close to her and that's that she left

21:30

her home to go to work. Well

21:33

as it was said at the end of the episode how

21:36

do we corroborate that? How

21:38

do we confirm that's the case? How

21:41

do we know if she ever left her home at all? At

21:43

least on her own accord and

21:46

I'm not saying this to disrespect Sarah's family

21:48

her father Hubert or her stepmother

21:50

Connie. I don't know them but

21:53

that as an investigator is something we have to ask.

21:56

If it doesn't make sense the window

21:58

itself right where something would have happened like there wouldn't

22:00

have been a reason for her to pull

22:03

over. The vehicle appeared to be intact.

22:06

It wasn't like a blown-out tire. The

22:08

vehicle was still functional, had

22:11

gas, so there really wouldn't be a reason

22:13

for her to stop on her way to work when she was only

22:15

four miles away, right? She would have went to work

22:18

and if there was something that needed to be addressed with

22:20

the vehicle, more than likely she would

22:22

have addressed it there so she was still on time

22:24

for work. The other thing

22:26

which which investigators have pointed out in this

22:28

case is that the vehicle was locked with

22:31

a manual key and that

22:33

would suggest that Sarah left

22:36

again on her own accord like as if she

22:38

wanted to, as if she was going to take off and

22:40

go somewhere else with some with someone else

22:43

and

22:44

that could be true, right? But

22:46

it could also be true that her offender wanted

22:49

to make it look that way, wanted to give the

22:51

impression that she

22:53

had ran away

22:54

and hopefully

22:57

investigators would go down that path and eventually

23:00

give up on it thinking she was just a runaway and

23:02

that whatever wherever she was or whoever

23:04

she was with, that's what she wanted.

23:06

Well unfortunately for

23:08

that offender or offenders, whoever they are,

23:10

that didn't happen and that's been very clear

23:13

through the investigation by the Robinson County

23:15

Sheriff's Department and also the FBI.

23:18

They are convinced that someone in this

23:20

community knows what happened

23:22

to her, that this wasn't just some transient passing

23:24

through the area who saw Sarah on the

23:26

side of the road, attacked her, kidnapped

23:28

her, abducted her and she was never

23:30

heard from again. They believe that

23:33

someone right in that their backyard is

23:35

responsible for her disappearance and potentially

23:38

her death. We don't know and that's

23:41

what it comes back to is the original story

23:43

which is from the family that everything

23:45

was fine. She got up, she

23:48

got ready for work and that was the last

23:50

time they ever saw her and so

23:52

yeah investigators are going to come back to that and

23:55

now with that in play I'd

23:57

given you the spectrum earlier and I want to keep to that.

23:59

I want to stay There's a real possibility

24:02

that Connie nor a Huber are involved with

24:04

this and maybe she was fired

24:07

for something completely unrelated. But

24:09

when you take into consideration everything

24:11

else that we now have, there

24:14

could still be a partial truth to what I was saying.

24:16

She could have been looking into the investigation

24:19

surrounding Sarah, but

24:22

the reason behind her looking

24:24

into it, it

24:26

could range. It could vary. Is she looking into

24:28

it because she's a concerned

24:31

step parent and she wants to find out as much information

24:33

as she can on behalf of Hubert, you know,

24:35

for Hubert? Or

24:38

is she looking into it because she's

24:41

a potential suspect and she wants

24:43

to know if they're getting close to her or Hubert

24:45

in the investigation? Is there something that's suggesting

24:48

they may be coming after them at some point? That

24:51

is also true. And listen, I don't think

24:53

I'm going too far on a limb here. You had a FBI

24:56

agent in a podcast say something

24:58

about this, indicate that it was someone close to

25:00

her who was not sharing

25:02

all the information. That could be Hubert, that could be

25:05

Connie, it could be both. And

25:07

obviously Hubert got wind of this, which is why

25:09

he responded by saying, hey, law

25:11

enforcement's not being nice to me. They're not cooperating

25:14

with me. They're not sharing information with me. Well,

25:17

if they consider Hubert at

25:19

minimum a person of interest or they

25:22

think that Hubert's connected to a person who

25:24

is a person of interest or a potential suspect,

25:27

they're not going to share information with him

25:29

because that could get back to Connie or

25:31

it might get back to him if

25:34

he's somehow involved. So

25:36

where does that leave us today? Right? I

25:38

think we have to start at the foundation. On

25:41

the surface, it sounds like everything

25:43

was perfect at home. It sounds like

25:45

Sarah, Connie, and Hubert were

25:47

one big happy family. And so

25:50

I think where investigators are struggling

25:52

is there's no motive. There's

25:54

no reason why Hubert or Connie

25:57

would hurt Sarah, at least that one that's known to be.

25:59

them right now.

26:01

So yes, I want this case to get

26:03

as much exposure as it can because you never

26:05

know who's going to hear or see this. But

26:07

anyone from that community, if

26:09

you were a friend of Sarah's or you knew someone

26:11

who was a friend of Sarah's, it would

26:13

be great to understand if Sarah felt

26:16

the same way, that everything was happy in the home.

26:18

Or did she ever share anything that

26:21

would suggest there were problems either with

26:23

Hubert or with Connie or with

26:25

both? That may start

26:28

investigators on a different path, that they can

26:30

find a reason why Hubert

26:34

and or Connie would have a reason

26:36

to hurt Sarah.

26:38

And if that is the case, then

26:40

they can start looking into the backgrounds of both

26:43

Connie and Hubert and see where

26:45

they like to go and where they frequented

26:47

it. And would there be somewhere that

26:50

if one or both of them were responsible

26:52

for Sarah's disappearance, what

26:54

do their GPS coordinates say? What

26:57

does their browser history say? Does

26:59

it give any indications of where Sarah

27:02

may be? And I will say we talked

27:05

about this new spontaneous

27:07

search that happened not

27:09

too long ago. Could that have

27:11

been the result of some information that they

27:13

found connected to Connie or Hubert?

27:16

I don't know. And even though I'm talking

27:18

a lot about Connie and Hubert, I

27:20

think that's, that's okay. You never

27:22

want to build a house on a faulty foundation.

27:25

And if they're working on the premise that

27:27

she left the house at 630, and that's not

27:29

true, it's going to really impede the investigation.

27:32

But with that all being said, I do

27:34

want to remind everyone, let's not get

27:36

tunnel vision. Yes, there are some

27:39

questions surrounding the story the morning

27:41

that Sarah left the house. But

27:43

there is still a possibility that

27:46

that is in fact what happened. And

27:48

even though it was a small window, it

27:50

was just enough time for someone to attack

27:53

Sarah under a random

27:56

set of circumstances she could have been flagged

27:58

down by someone for

27:59

all.

27:59

While we know she could have been pulled over by someone

28:02

who appeared or presented

28:04

themselves to be in law enforcement, there's

28:07

a few different scenarios that could have played

28:09

out there. Although unlikely, it doesn't

28:12

mean they're impossible. So I want us to continue

28:14

to stay open to that. But finally, I'm

28:16

glad to hear that the FBI and the Robinson

28:19

County Sheriff's Department is still very active

28:21

in this investigation. And although

28:23

there hasn't been anything yet, I

28:26

feel like they're on the cusp of something,

28:28

or at least I'm hoping they are, and the fact

28:30

that there's still search warrants being conducted,

28:33

this case is still very much active,

28:35

and I'm hoping in the near future we have an update.

28:38

But just as a reminder for everyone out there who

28:40

may know something or may know someone

28:42

who knows something, Sarah was last

28:44

seen on February 4, 2015, in Fairmont, North Carolina. She

28:49

is indigenous and stands about 5 feet 4 inches

28:51

tall and weighs approximately 160 pounds.

28:55

She has short, dark brown hair, brown eyes,

28:58

and wears glasses. She was last seen

29:00

wearing her blue Walmart employee

29:02

vest. Anyone with information

29:04

is asked to contact the Robinson County Sheriff's

29:06

Office at 910-671-3100

29:10

or

29:13

the FBI Charlotte Office at 704-671-6100, or

29:15

you can submit a tip online at tips.fbi.gov.

29:24

There is still a $5,000 reward available

29:26

for information in Sarah's disappearance.

29:29

Okay, so we got one case down. Now

29:31

let's go over to Shawna, Wisconsin, where

29:34

Caitlin Kelly went missing in June of 2020.

29:37

Caitlin Latisha Kelly was born on December 18,

29:40

1997, to her parents, Daniel and Michelle. She

29:44

was a member of the Mononomy tribe, and

29:46

she enjoyed spending time with her family. After

29:49

graduating high school, Caitlin worked

29:51

at the North Star and Monomony Casino.

29:55

In 2018, she had a son with her on-again,

29:57

off-again boyfriend, Cody Act.

29:59

to the Crimelines podcast who interviewed Caitlin's

30:02

mother, Caitlin and Kodiak tried to

30:04

make things work for their son, even

30:06

when they weren't officially together. For

30:08

the most part, they were good at co-parenting

30:11

and got along with each other. By June of

30:14

2020, Caitlin and Kodiak were no longer a couple,

30:16

and Caitlin was dating an older man who her mom

30:18

knew through family. On June 18th,

30:21

Michelle reported 22-year-old Caitlin missing

30:23

to the Menominee Indian Reservation Tribal

30:25

Police. Michelle told them

30:27

that she hadn't been able to reach Caitlin since June

30:30

16th. Michelle was very worried

30:32

as Caitlin always stayed in touch, especially

30:34

because of her two-year-old son. She'd

30:37

call in the morning or whenever she got home, knowing

30:39

how concerned her mom was about her safety. Caitlin

30:42

had a big heart, and she'd never willingly let

30:44

her mom worry about her. The

30:46

police started putting together a timeline for Caitlin's

30:48

last known movements. According

30:51

to NamUs, they determined she left her boyfriends

30:53

on the night of June 16th at around 10.20

30:56

p.m. A bit later, between 10.25 p.m.

30:59

and 10.30 p.m., someone saw Caitlin

31:01

walking on County Highway VV near

31:04

Silver Canoe Road on the Menominee

31:06

Indian Reservation. She was wearing a

31:08

gray t-shirt, a black swimsuit top,

31:10

blue jean shorts, and black flip-flops. Around

31:14

15 minutes later, the same person drove

31:16

by but didn't see Caitlin. The next

31:18

time Caitlin was seen was around 11 p.m.,

31:21

when a neighbor spotted Caitlin at her Shaw-No

31:23

apartment. This timeline told

31:25

police that Caitlin had to have been picked up by

31:27

a car when she was in the Highway VV

31:30

area. There was no way she could have walked

31:32

to her apartment in such a short period of time.

31:35

A neighbor saw Caitlin again at 3 a.m., this

31:37

time with a man and two women. Michelle

31:40

told the Crimelines podcast that she didn't know

31:42

these people very well. They were new friends

31:44

of Caitlin's. Now, around that same time,

31:47

Caitlin posted on Facebook that she saw a black

31:49

SUV parked outside her apartment. Then,

31:52

according to the Justice for Caitlin Kelly Facebook

31:54

page,

31:55

Caitlin left her apartment with a man who the

31:57

page claimed was a known rapist, stockman, and a man who was a black

31:59

man.

31:59

worker, and abuser. I

32:02

want to note that this information comes only

32:04

from the Facebook page and the police have

32:06

never mentioned this man publicly, further

32:08

details are unknown. In

32:11

the days after Caitlin went missing, the

32:13

tribal police used social media to ask for help

32:15

in finding her. They urged hunters,

32:18

campers, boaters, and local residents to stay

32:20

vigilant in the area and report any

32:22

strange happenings. The tribal police

32:24

along with other departments searched extensively

32:27

where Caitlin was last seen. They

32:29

combed through roads, forests, and bodies of water.

32:32

They followed up on tips, but unfortunately, they

32:34

could not locate Caitlin. The Crimelines

32:36

podcast mentioned that Kodiak, the father

32:39

of Caitlin's son, managed to access

32:41

her Facebook and Gmail accounts, which the police

32:43

used during their investigation. However,

32:46

they haven't found her physical phone, and

32:48

they haven't shared any information about potential

32:50

phone pings or digital data. Meanwhile,

32:53

Caitlin's mom Michelle and other family members

32:56

put up flyers across Wisconsin and

32:58

pleaded with the public for help. Five

33:00

days after Caitlin was reported missing,

33:03

Michelle told WBAY Action 2

33:05

News, quote, she needs to be home by

33:07

her family and her baby. This is

33:09

very unlike her to be gone this long, even

33:12

like a couple days. I'm just worried.

33:15

I want her home. I just want to

33:17

know where she is. On July 22, the

33:20

Menominee Nation offered a $5,000 reward

33:23

for anyone who could help find Caitlin.

33:26

But no one came forward with information. Then

33:30

on March 17, 2021, almost a year

33:33

after Caitlin disappeared, human

33:35

remains were discovered on the Menominee

33:37

reservation. The specific location

33:40

hasn't been disclosed to the public.

33:42

Days later,

33:43

an autopsy confirmed that these remains belonged

33:46

to Caitlin Kelly. While the official

33:48

cause and manner of death have not been made public,

33:51

many sources have labeled it as a homicide.

33:54

After the news of Caitlin's death went public, Renee,

33:57

an activist from missing and murdered indigenous

33:59

relatives,

33:59

she

34:00

expressed her sorrow to Fox 11 News,

34:03

saying, quote, there's another young indigenous

34:05

daughter not coming home. It's

34:07

nice that we will know where she will rest for the rest of

34:09

her life, where her soul will be.

34:12

But it would be much nicer if she wasn't stolen in

34:14

the first place. Caitlin's mom

34:16

Michelle spoke to WBAY, expressing

34:19

her need to understand what happened to Caitlin. She

34:22

said, quote, I am kind of relieved because I don't

34:24

have to wonder where she is anymore, but

34:26

I still want justice and whoever's responsible

34:28

comes forward or gets caught because that

34:30

will help in the closure for the family.

34:33

On June 17th, the Menominee

34:35

Tribal Police released a statement to mark

34:38

the one year anniversary since Caitlin's disappearance.

34:41

The statement disclosed that her case was still under

34:43

active investigation by the tribal police

34:45

and the FBI. They urged

34:48

the public to keep Caitlin and her family and their

34:50

thoughts and report any information

34:52

that could aid in the ongoing investigation.

34:55

In September of 2022, Cody

34:58

X mother share with the Wintonburg enterprise

35:00

that the most painful part of Caitlin's death was

35:03

hearing her four year old son ask for his

35:05

mom. She also mentioned that

35:07

she continuously praised for Caitlin's parents

35:10

to find some peace. Sadly,

35:12

in March of 2023, Caitlin's

35:15

mother Michelle unexpectedly passed

35:17

away at the young age of 47. She

35:20

never found out what happened to her daughter.

35:23

Now, unfortunately, there are no further

35:25

updates. The circumstances surrounding

35:27

Caitlin's disappearance and death remain

35:29

a mystery and investigators are

35:31

still working on this case as we

35:33

speak. All

35:37

right, so let's dive into my perspective

35:39

and this isn't going to be a long one because I feel

35:41

like we have a lot of the missing

35:44

pieces to the puzzle. We just

35:46

need someone out there who knows what

35:48

happened that night to finally come forward.

35:51

But just for everyone out there, let's recap some of the

35:53

highlights of this investigation because I feel like

35:55

they're important. I feel like they really hold the key

35:57

to this case. We have a.

35:59

good understanding of Caitlin's whereabouts

36:02

that night. We know that she was picked

36:04

up by someone because she wouldn't have been able

36:06

to walk to her apartment in that short period

36:09

of time.

36:10

And we know that around 3am

36:11

she was seen

36:14

with a man and two women. We

36:16

also know that she posted something

36:18

on Facebook about a black SUV, although

36:21

that could be it could be a nothing

36:23

burger. It may have it just might be a red herring.

36:25

It could have actually happened, but it may not have

36:28

anything to do with the case. But

36:30

back to this gentleman and these two women. Now,

36:33

as I said on the Facebook page, Justice for Caitlin

36:35

Kelly, the people there who run

36:37

that page believe that this individual

36:40

is a alleged rapist and known

36:43

abuser. And that

36:45

leads me to believe that they have the name of this guy,

36:47

right? If they know his history, then they know who

36:49

he is. So if they know who

36:51

he is, then that means the police

36:54

know who he is. And

36:56

here's where I'm at on this one. These

36:59

two women that were also

37:01

with this man and with Caitlin at the time,

37:04

I'm assuming they're still alive. And

37:07

if they're still alive and

37:09

where to presume that whatever happened to Caitlin

37:11

happened that night, that means that

37:14

those three individuals or a combination

37:16

of them were responsible for Caitlin's

37:18

death. And if we're in

37:20

a situation where the

37:23

male figure is the main offender, that

37:26

means those two women know

37:28

what happened that night, or at least can fill in the

37:30

blanks as to when they left. And it was

37:32

just this man and Caitlin the rest

37:34

of the evening. Either way, they know something. And

37:36

I'm assuming, I'm hoping they've already

37:39

been spoken to. But if they haven't

37:41

been spoken to one investigative tactic,

37:43

and I've said this before, you

37:45

want to go after the person who

37:47

has the least involvement, but the most

37:50

to lose. And what I mean by

37:52

that is if these two women know what happened

37:54

that evening, if you

37:56

go to them and you tie them into this crime,

37:58

you say, Hey, listen. You're

38:01

going to go down for conspiracy to commit murder

38:03

if you don't work with us because if you're not working with

38:06

us, you're working against us. And that means that you

38:08

have more involvement than you want us to know.

38:10

Do you really want to go to prison for the rest

38:12

of your life for a crime you didn't commit?

38:15

And if that person really didn't have anything to

38:17

do with the crime but might have been present,

38:19

they're going to be more willing to work with you

38:21

because they're not the main offender. They didn't

38:23

actually kill her.

38:25

And so therefore they have something to

38:27

offer you that could get them off, at least with a

38:29

reduced sentence. Again, if

38:31

they were, a lot of hypotheticals here, if

38:33

they were actually involved in the crime at all, it

38:36

may have been just, it may

38:38

have been just the presence that they were

38:40

there and that they may have, I don't know, hidden

38:42

something or helped him get home. Who knows? But

38:45

these people know something. And there are people

38:48

in that community that know them.

38:51

I'm not saying we want to harass anyone, but

38:53

if you are friends or acquaintances of these

38:55

individuals

38:57

and you're from that area,

38:58

maybe if you can put a little pressure on

39:00

them. Let them know that there's still an opportunity

39:03

for them to do the right thing. I

39:05

have a sneaking suspicion that if

39:07

this male individual is involved,

39:10

part of the reason they may not have come forward

39:12

at this point with new information is be out of

39:14

fear. They don't want to end up like Caitlin.

39:17

We do see that in a lot

39:19

of investigations that I've covered where you

39:21

have this indirect witness intimidation

39:24

where they see what the offender is

39:26

capable of. They're concerned

39:28

that law enforcement won't have enough to arrest

39:31

them, and therefore they don't want to

39:33

put their lives on the line for that. They're figuring,

39:35

hey, listen, it's not me. I don't

39:38

want to be another person, another victim. I'm

39:40

just going to keep my mouth shut and say nothing.

39:43

And I get it.

39:44

I understand.

39:45

We're all human beings that can understand how

39:48

self-preservation is a big component

39:50

to a decision-making process. But

39:52

I also want you guys to understand

39:54

that there are services offered by

39:57

authorities

39:57

that can protect you.

39:59

can put you in a position where you're able to

40:02

provide information to give closure

40:04

to Caitlin's family

40:06

while not putting yourself in jeopardy.

40:08

And again, I know that's hard, but if

40:11

it was easy, everyone would do it. And we need someone with

40:13

courage to come forward and make that next

40:15

step and finally bring this

40:17

case, the answers

40:20

that everyone

40:21

connected to this case, including Caitlin's

40:23

son, what they all

40:26

deserve. And just to recap for everyone

40:28

listening or watching this episode or

40:30

maybe someone who's from that area, Caitlin

40:32

Kelly was last seen around 3 a.m. on

40:35

June 17, 2020 in Shawna, Wisconsin.

40:38

If you have any information, please call the Menominee

40:40

Tribal Police at 715-799-3881. Now

40:47

to recap this entire episode, we have obviously

40:49

two different cases. I want

40:51

to thank everyone who reached out and

40:54

obviously asked for me to

40:56

cover more cases involving indigenous

40:59

women. I do recognize that it's a problem

41:01

that these cases are not covered at

41:03

the same rate that other cases are covered.

41:06

You know, I could sit here and say, well,

41:08

I'm not going to be able to solve that problem. I don't

41:10

speak on behalf of everyone, you

41:13

know, all these different media outlets

41:15

and podcasts and true crime shows. But

41:17

just because they're not doing their part doesn't mean

41:19

I shouldn't. And regardless

41:22

of what type of impact my

41:24

coverage will have on the case, if

41:26

I decide to actively not

41:29

cover them as well, then

41:31

I'm also part of the problem. And

41:33

I'll tell you, I said it before, I could

41:35

cover cases every single

41:38

day for the next 10 years and

41:40

I wouldn't even scratch the surface on all

41:42

the cases out there that do not

41:45

get the coverage they deserve. It's

41:47

a really demoralizing fact. But

41:50

my hope is that maybe by me

41:52

making a small dent in this massive

41:54

problem, others will follow

41:57

suit, both small and large podcasts.

42:00

media outlets and maybe down

42:02

the road many years from now this

42:04

won't be such a big problem anymore and we'll

42:06

get equal coverage regardless

42:08

of a victim's background, regardless

42:11

of their gender, regardless of their nationality,

42:14

regardless of where they're from, regardless of their socioeconomic

42:17

status. Everyone deserves to be treated

42:19

equally

42:20

regardless of who they are.

42:22

As always, if you made it to the end of this episode,

42:24

thank you for staying all the way through and if you feel

42:27

inclined leave a comment down below. Let me know

42:29

what you think of these cases. One

42:31

final thing before I end this episode, it's more

42:33

of a personal note. Right now it's October 29th. We

42:36

have Halloween in a couple days and

42:38

then we have Thanksgiving coming up and then Christmas

42:40

is right around the corner. Obviously, the best

42:42

time of year, right? With

42:45

all of that going on, family being

42:47

the number one priority, couple that with

42:49

the current things I'm working on with Crime

42:51

Weekly and traveling for crime feed, it's

42:54

pretty hectic. It's been tough to get

42:57

these episodes out every week to you. There may be a few

42:59

weeks where I don't put out an episode.

43:02

Please make sure you're following on my personal social

43:05

media accounts. I think it's at Derek

43:07

Lavassar's, my main page

43:09

and then also Detective Perspective,

43:12

which is D-E-T Perspective.

43:14

Pretty simple, at D-E-T Perspective

43:17

on Instagram and Twitter, I believe. Follow

43:20

me there and if I'm not going to be able to put out an episode,

43:22

I will let you guys know on those platforms

43:25

just so you're not hanging around for it. I'm pretty easy

43:27

to find. I'm posting on Twitter or Instagram. Finally,

43:30

I just want to say again, thank you so much for the support.

43:32

We're going to keep this going. As I've

43:34

been saying throughout this whole episode, these cases

43:36

need to be covered and we're going to do our part

43:39

to cover them. As always, stay

43:41

safe out there and I'll see you soon.

43:55

Bye. easily

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