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0:37

On the evening of August 21, 1989, Norman

0:41

Ladner, a 17-year-old high school

0:43

student, went hunting on his family's property

0:46

in Picayune, Mississippi. When

0:49

Norman didn't return home by 7 p.m., his

0:52

parents grew concerned and went looking

0:54

for him. Ultimately, Norman

0:56

was found in the woods, dead from

0:58

a single shotgun wound to the temple. A

1:01

coroner and medical examiner ultimately ruled

1:03

that Norman had committed suicide. However,

1:06

his parents have adamantly denied this possibility

1:09

and maintain that he was murdered. It's

1:11

been 34 years since Norman died, and

1:14

his loved ones are still searching for answers.

1:22

Hey there Pens!

1:27

Hope everyone is doing well. Alright,��

1:35

Hope that those of you with mallfuls under 30

1:38

can relax your mind a little bit and

1:41

take in some beautiful and willful

1:43

things. These

1:46

are the messages we want to share with you.

1:59

contact information for the individuals

2:02

or organizations connected to the case so

2:04

that if you have any tips you can contact

2:06

them directly and maybe you can help

2:08

solve a case and if you're someone who's interested

2:11

in true crime specifically unsolved cases

2:14

and you'd like to hear my opinion on those investigations

2:17

please consider subscribing whether you're watching on

2:19

YouTube or listening on Apple Podcasts

2:21

or Spotify or whatever platform

2:24

you use it would be greatly appreciated.

2:26

Okay, Norman Ladner This

2:29

is an interesting case and I try to keep you guys

2:31

on your toes. I try to keep it different This

2:34

is a case that as you will see throughout this

2:36

episode that law enforcement

2:38

the authorities involved not only I should say investigators

2:41

involved but everyone from

2:43

the medical examiner to the coroner they

2:45

all believe that Norman killed himself or

2:47

if this was an accident However,

2:50

Norman's parents do not believe either

2:52

I think they were more inclined

2:55

to believe that the idea that

2:57

maybe this was a tragic accident but

2:59

knowing their son like they do they

3:02

just didn't see a world where he would kill himself

3:04

and they didn't see a world where based

3:07

on the on the young boy that they had been I

3:09

mean he was 17 years old but he was still a boy was

3:11

in a position or was experiencing something or

3:13

displaying some type of behavior that would indicate

3:16

that he was depressed or upset or scared

3:18

about something and Would cause him

3:20

to go in the woods and kill himself they

3:23

also considered the fact of

3:26

the chain of events leading up to what he was working

3:28

and then Left the store and

3:30

was just going back there like he normally did didn't

3:33

give any indication that he was feeling some type

3:35

of way Or was in a mind

3:37

state that would lead to something like

3:39

this Now I'm gonna get more into

3:41

this into my perspective at the end I want to give you

3:44

guys the overview of

3:46

the case and let you kind of come to your

3:48

own conclusions I don't want to influence you too

3:50

much but the reason I decided to cover this

3:52

case is because This this one was

3:54

covered by unsolved mysteries and clearly

3:56

they felt that there was enough there to cover it

3:59

and I will save for me as well, there's

4:01

some questions about this case that I just

4:03

can't answer. And so what

4:06

are we doing here? We're giving exposure

4:08

to cases that you may not have heard of and

4:11

hoping that it drums up some new

4:13

conversations, some additional dialogue,

4:16

and who knows where it leads. We have nothing to lose and everything

4:18

to gain. Norman's mother is still

4:20

alive, Charlotte. So I don't know. She's

4:23

in her 80s. So I don't know if she's going to be someone

4:25

who listens to this, but either way, maybe a

4:27

family member of Norman's will listen to

4:29

it or watch it and let her know about it.

4:31

So if it doesn't do anything else at all, we're

4:34

carrying on the legacy of Norman's

4:37

parents who vowed to continue

4:39

to push for their son all the way to their

4:41

death. So we're going to do our part to

4:43

keep this case alive. Okay, with that all out

4:45

of the way, let's dive into the case.

4:48

Norman Charles Ladner was born on May 29, 1972, in Mississippi

4:50

to his parents, Norman Sr.

4:54

and Charlotte. He along with his

4:56

three sisters and three brothers grew up in

4:58

Pearl River, Mississippi. However,

5:01

they spent a lot of their time in Picayune, a

5:03

neighboring town with around 10,000 residents.

5:06

This area was a 45-minute drive from bigger

5:08

cities like Biloxi, Mississippi, and

5:10

New Orleans, Louisiana.

5:13

The Ladner family had strong connections to Picayune

5:15

as they owned a minute-mark convenience store there.

5:18

During the summer of 1989, Norman

5:20

worked as a clerk at the store. He was

5:23

also preparing to return to school for his senior

5:25

year of high school, where he was well-liked by

5:27

all of his peers. Behind the

5:29

store, the Ladners owned over 120 acres

5:32

of land, which included a mix of farmland

5:34

and woods. Norman enjoyed

5:36

the woods, where he would often explore and sometimes

5:39

go hunting.

5:40

Norman's mother Charlotte told the Times-Picayune

5:43

that he was a gifted outdoorsman and craftsman.

5:45

When Norman wasn't working during the summer of 1989, he

5:49

was busy forging a large sword, which

5:51

he completed on August 20. On

5:53

the following day, Norman left the

5:55

store to go hunting in the woods behind it. Norman

5:59

Sr. told Unsolved histories, that Norman was

6:01

always punctual and would return to the store

6:03

by 7 or 7.30 pm,

6:05

but never later.

6:06

However, on the night of August 21st,

6:09

Norman didn't come back when he was supposed to. By 7

6:13

pm, Norman Sr. started to

6:15

worry. His son was always on

6:17

time, and he knew the area well so

6:19

getting lost seemed highly unlikely. Concerned

6:22

that something had gone wrong, Norman Sr.

6:24

and Charlotte began looking around the area behind

6:26

the store to find their son. Not

6:29

long after they began their search, Charlotte

6:31

decided to go back to the store in case Norman

6:33

returned. Norman Sr.

6:35

continued to search the woods, and eventually,

6:38

he found his son lying face up on the ground.

6:41

He had been shot in the head, and was already

6:43

cold to the touch. Norman Sr.

6:46

later told Unsolved Mysteries, quote,

6:48

it's a deep shock and a tragedy to come up

6:50

on and find your own son, because

6:52

you could never imagine or think how this could

6:54

happen or the loss of a child until you've

6:56

experienced going through it. Norman

6:59

Sr. returned to the store and contacted the

7:01

police. Sheriff Lawrence Lumpkin

7:03

of Pearl River County, along with a few

7:06

deputies, arrived at the scene just after 10 pm

7:09

and immediately confirmed that Norman was deceased.

7:12

Sheriff Lumpkin secured the wooded area and began

7:15

his investigation, looking for any signs

7:17

of foul play. He looked over

7:19

Norman's body and noticed a gunshot wound

7:21

to his temple and a 1 ¼ inch

7:23

cut to the top of Norman's head toward

7:26

the peak. Additionally,

7:28

Lumpkin realized that Norman's wallet was missing

7:31

and the 12 gauge shotgun beside him was broken.

7:34

Now Lumpkin told Unsolved Mysteries that after looking

7:36

over the scene, he immediately ruled

7:38

out any involvement of foul play. He

7:41

said, quote, I ruled it out in this instance

7:43

because I saw nothing there to indicate that. At

7:46

first, I thought it might have been an accident. It

7:48

looked as though Norman might have been in a tree nearby

7:50

and subsequently fallen out of the tree

7:53

and the gun discharged. Lumpkin

7:55

theorized that the cut on Norman's head happened when

7:57

he fell. He located a tree root

7:59

with blood on it at the scene which he

8:01

believed caused the cut. So I want to

8:03

talk about this real quick because I'm sure some of you

8:06

are sitting here saying wow this sheriff

8:08

ruled this an accident pretty quickly

8:11

and I

8:12

wouldn't necessarily disagree

8:14

with you but when you're looking

8:16

over a crime scene yes you want to consider

8:18

the fact that foul play was involved in every

8:20

case you respond to and you want to treat it as such

8:23

but also it's it's important to use

8:25

common sense and without being

8:28

there myself there may have been

8:30

things that were very obvious to him the tree

8:32

root having blood on it I think

8:34

that's a good observation the broken

8:36

shotgun the type

8:38

of injury to the victim's head all

8:41

of these things collectively can

8:43

start to paint a picture and

8:46

I don't know if this is what sheriff lumpkin

8:48

thought internally or if he immediately

8:50

told everyone around him including the parents that

8:53

yep this was an accident case closed but

8:56

clearly he did that very soon after if not

8:58

in that moment because of what I'm gonna say next

9:00

this is obviously the ruling that he went with this

9:02

is his final decision on this

9:05

and I would say I

9:07

could sit here and kind

9:09

of play down what he did and say that it

9:11

was the wrong call but if everything

9:13

points in that direction I don't necessarily

9:15

have a problem with it but I would

9:18

say it wouldn't hurt to potentially wait

9:20

at least a couple days you know put some

9:22

put some feelers out there see if anything

9:24

comes out or comes forward that would contradict

9:27

what the at least how the scene appeared

9:30

but again that's Monday morning quarterbacking

9:32

and I don't like to do that too often because

9:34

again I know from personal

9:36

experience that when you're there it's different

9:39

and I've always been frustrated when I had a

9:41

case and I'll see some pundit

9:43

or some journalist online talking

9:46

about our case the specifics

9:48

of our case when we haven't even released it yet

9:51

and I'm sitting there getting frustrated because

9:53

I know that they're missing or

9:55

not saying a few different things

9:57

that they're not aware of because they weren't there they

10:00

see it themselves. They didn't smell it, they didn't see

10:02

it, they didn't, they weren't able to get the

10:04

depth of everything because again they're reading

10:06

it off a statement that was released later and

10:09

that doesn't give that three-dimensional

10:11

picture that the investigators have. So to put myself

10:13

in that shoe and do exactly

10:15

what I'm doing right now that I hated so much, it's

10:18

a tough one for me

10:20

but to just keep it impartial,

10:24

did he pull the trigger a little fast? No

10:26

pun intended here, maybe, but

10:28

I also could see a world where he read

10:31

the room, he looked at the evidence, he took

10:33

his time with it, he had other deputies there and ultimately

10:35

based on everything that he saw,

10:38

it all lined up and that's the decision he made.

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11:40

to the point that I was just making about other

11:43

specialists, other professionals being

11:46

involved with this whole process and coming to a conclusion,

11:48

that's where this comes in. County coroner

11:50

John Stafford soon arrived at the scene and conducted

11:53

his own investigation. Afterward,

11:55

he, along with two deputies, returned to the

11:57

Ladner store and informed the family that

11:59

they there was a 90% chance

12:02

the shooting was accidental. Norman's

12:04

body was then sent for an autopsy, which

12:06

was performed by a forensic pathologist from New

12:08

Orleans. The examination showed

12:10

that Norman had been shot at close range, and

12:13

the bullet went in through the right temple and

12:15

exited through the left temple. This

12:17

meant that the bullet was no longer inside Norman's

12:20

head, however police did not attempt

12:22

to find the missing bullet. Now because

12:24

the bullet wound indicated the gun was in close contact

12:27

to Norman when it was fired, the pathologist

12:29

ruled Norman's death a suicide, not

12:32

an accident. Sheriff Lumpkin later

12:34

told Unsolved Mysteries that Norman's injuries

12:36

were typical for suicide. He

12:38

believed Norman went into the woods, a place he

12:40

was comfortable with, and for unknown reasons

12:43

he chose to end his own life. Okay

12:45

so let's dive into Sheriff Lumpkin's comments for

12:47

a second here. I partially

12:50

agree with it. One part I agree with, the other part

12:53

I don't. So let's start with what I agree

12:55

with. I do think that

12:57

when you have a gunshot wound this

13:00

close in proximity to the individual's

13:03

head, it is highly suggestive

13:05

that it's either a suicide or

13:08

an accident. Yes, I've seen

13:10

the movies, and there have been actual

13:12

cases where a suicide

13:15

is staged, where the offenders will

13:18

hold the victim against their will, fire

13:21

their gun at close range while they're holding it

13:23

to give the impression to detectives

13:26

later that this person took their own life. They want

13:28

to throw them off the scent, right? That

13:30

does happen, but we got to look at the totality

13:33

of circumstances here, right? This is a 17-year-old

13:35

boy, doesn't appear that he had any

13:38

enemies. How would his attackers

13:41

even know he was going to be out there? They would have to have kind

13:43

of premeditated this whole

13:45

suicide attempt to make it look like one, and

13:48

what would the motive be? What did

13:51

Norman know or have that would

13:53

lead someone to want to kill him and stage

13:55

it to look like a suicide? I think

13:58

that's very unlikely. If not, then I would have to do that. Norman

14:00

was killed. You're looking

14:02

at a situation where someone

14:05

out there didn't like him, and from

14:08

probably a not

14:10

close range, because Norman had a gun as well, they

14:12

shot him with a different firearm. Or

14:14

if I had to really put my

14:16

money on it, and this wasn't an accident or a suicide,

14:19

I would say this was a hunting accident,

14:22

which we've seen before, where this

14:24

individual that's in the woods is

14:26

out there hunting, and Norman's

14:28

not wearing a vest, and they're

14:31

at a far distance, and they see something moving

14:33

in the woods. They think it's a deer or an elk

14:35

or whatever animal's prevalent to that area. And

14:38

without actually seeing what they're shooting, they pull

14:40

the trigger and find out after

14:42

the fact that they just shot a young boy. And

14:45

they're scared. They know the ramifications

14:47

that could come from this, the consequences that may result,

14:50

and so they leave without telling anyone. Is

14:52

that possible? Yes. And it's

14:54

very possible that the way he was

14:56

shot, it's while he's walking, so

14:59

they fire the bullet, and it goes in

15:01

one side, and it's a through and through, and then he

15:03

drops to the ground. And that also could

15:05

have caused the injury to his lip, where, yeah, he

15:07

ends up on his back, but it's a situation

15:10

where he could, if he had a tree branch or something, on the

15:12

way down, again, without visually seeing the injury,

15:14

it's hard for me to speculate. But that's

15:16

why I partially agree with him and partially don't.

15:20

I don't think it's fair to say his injuries

15:22

are typical with a suicide,

15:24

because I think with a suicide, it's not only about

15:27

the physical attributes of the suicide,

15:29

it's the events leading up to it. There's an investigation

15:32

that has to take place where you look into

15:34

the victim to see what was going on

15:36

in their life. Was there a journal? Was

15:39

there any video recordings? Was there any

15:41

browser history? At this point, in this case, there wouldn't

15:43

have been, obviously. But you want to

15:45

try to recreate the

15:47

days or weeks leading up to that person's

15:50

death to see if there would be anything

15:52

or any indication that this individual

15:54

was contemplating taking their own life. And

15:56

it doesn't sound like there was any of that with

15:59

Norman. I think it's unfair to say that

16:02

Norman's circumstances are typical of a suicide

16:05

because what's really typical about his case, other

16:07

than the fact that it was a close gunshot wound to the

16:09

head. So agree on some

16:12

disagree on other parts of it. Now,

16:14

as you can imagine, Norman's family was completely

16:17

shocked by this change in manner of death. Just

16:19

the day before they were told it was most likely

16:22

an accident. Now they're being told it

16:24

was a suicide. Norman senior

16:26

later shared with unsolved mysteries that he couldn't believe

16:28

Norman took his own life. He said,

16:30

quote, I knew my son too well. He

16:33

enjoyed living life to the fullest. He

16:35

was happy. He was outgoing. He

16:38

was not depressed in any way. Charlotte

16:41

added, quote, he had no reason to kill himself

16:43

and he was too careful to accidentally shoot himself.

16:47

Now, real quick on that respect,

16:49

both Norman senior and Charlotte, obviously,

16:52

but I will say in cases where

16:54

an accident happens, that's why

16:56

it's an accident. It's something that's out of character

16:58

for them. It wasn't intended. And

17:01

even when someone is very careful, all it

17:03

takes is one momentary

17:05

lapse in judgment and it could

17:07

result in tragedy. And I wouldn't

17:09

even say it's a lapse in judgment. If he's trying to climb

17:11

a tree and his foot slips the wrong

17:14

way, or while he's in the tree, he, he

17:16

loses his balance. It's

17:18

physics. You fall to the ground, the gun falls a

17:20

certain way. It goes off. And unfortunately,

17:23

instead of it just missing your head or

17:25

your shoulder, it hit him in

17:27

the temple. It's a freak

17:30

accident. Probably one out

17:32

of a 1 million chance, but could it have happened

17:34

that way? Absolutely. And it could be this

17:36

tragic accident that although Norman was safe,

17:39

99.9% of the time in this particular situation, it

17:43

just, it was honestly just a stroke

17:45

of bad luck. And I don't say that

17:47

to say that's what happened here. I'm just saying it. We

17:50

have to entertain it as one of the possibilities.

17:52

And although Norman was careful most of the

17:54

time, it doesn't mean that this couldn't

17:56

have happened that way. Now the Ladners

17:58

believe that the authorities. to conclude that Norman's

18:01

death was a suicide. According to

18:03

the son, Harold, the Ladners wrote multiple letters

18:05

to the sheriff, coroner, forensic pathologist,

18:08

and the state requesting additional information

18:10

about the autopsy and other records.

18:13

Upon receiving the reports, they noted several

18:15

inconsistencies that raised questions. First

18:18

off, the sheriff's department had not fingerprinted

18:20

the broken shotgun or conducted a thorough

18:22

investigation into the bullet that exited Norman's

18:25

temple. This meant that authorities couldn't

18:27

definitively confirm whether Norman's shotgun

18:29

was the weapon that caused his death. Norman,

18:31

Sr., and Charlotte also questioned how Norman's

18:34

shotgun had broken after he had allegedly

18:36

shot himself. This aspect seemed

18:38

puzzling to them. Additionally,

18:40

the Ladners found the location of the cut on the top

18:43

of Norman's head to be suspicious. They

18:45

couldn't understand how Norman sustained such an

18:47

injury if he had fallen backward after being shot

18:49

like the scene indicated. They

18:52

believed that the cut should have been on the side or back

18:54

of his head instead. Another concerning

18:56

factor for the Ladners was Norman's missing wallet.

18:59

They were aware that he had $140 in cash inside his wallet, which would be

19:03

the equivalent to approximately $345 today. The Ladners questioned

19:06

if Norman had really taken his

19:10

own life, why would he dispose of his

19:12

wallet? Now, I want to weigh in on

19:14

this wallet too, because this was something that I went

19:16

back and looked up and I couldn't find anything. But

19:19

I'm assuming after all these years,

19:22

the wallet was never found. And this does

19:24

raise a big question for me,

19:26

right?

19:27

And I could talk about this wallet

19:29

for 20, 30 minutes. I won't. But

19:31

I'm assuming the wallet was never

19:34

found, which would suggest

19:36

if you're looking at just that, that the motive

19:39

in this death could have been a robbery. But

19:42

it's just so far fetched me to think that

19:44

someone would know this young boy

19:46

was going to be walking out of the store. I should say teenager, I

19:49

shouldn't call him a young boy, but that he was going

19:51

to be walking out of the store into the woods and would

19:53

have this type of cash on him and they would

19:55

shoot him for a couple

19:57

hundred bucks. It just really

20:00

about money, why wouldn't the gunman

20:02

just rob the store? Why would you take a

20:04

risk on a teenager who might have some

20:06

money on him after you kill him? Doesn't

20:08

really make a lot of sense. Like

20:11

I said earlier, if this was a homicide,

20:15

then I believe it's more likely that it

20:17

was a hunter who mistook

20:20

Norman as an animal. But there

20:23

are some other theories here that we're going to talk about

20:25

that do potentially

20:27

have some weight. So just stick with me on

20:30

this one. Now, according to the son,

20:32

Harold, all of these factors led the Ladners

20:34

to conclude that Norman had been struck

20:36

on the head with a rifle, which caused the cut and

20:38

broke the shotgun. They believe that

20:41

someone had subsequently shot Norman with another

20:43

firearm and then took his wallet and money.

20:46

The Ladner family decided to conduct their own investigation,

20:49

focusing on the area where they found Norman's body.

20:52

They dug up the dirt searching for the bullet that

20:54

took his life. Charlotte later told

20:57

Unsolved Mysteries about this search, saying,

20:59

quote, I remember so well the feeling

21:01

I had of having to sift through the dried particles

21:03

of brain tissue and blood of my son.

21:06

Now, this had to be horrible,

21:08

but the Ladners efforts paid off and

21:10

they discovered a bullet in the dirt. However,

21:13

they had their doubts about whether the bullet came from

21:15

Norman's gun because it was much longer

21:17

than what would fit in the shotgun's chamber. Upon

21:20

closer examination under a magnifying glass,

21:23

the Ladners realized the bullet contained dry blood

21:25

and a strand of hair. They now

21:28

believe they found the bullet that killed their son.

21:31

When they took their concern to Sheriff Lumpkin, he

21:33

said the bullet found in the dirt was not the one responsible

21:36

for Norman's death. He argued

21:38

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21:41

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22:44

So with this whole scenario I find it really

22:47

perplexing because you

22:50

have a situation where you have a young

22:52

teenager

22:53

who

22:55

dies by way of bullet

22:58

and coincidentally the family digs

23:00

up the area and finds a

23:03

bullet right there with blood

23:05

and hair on it. Now this is a hunting

23:07

area. It may be common

23:09

to find bullets in trees and ground

23:13

and all these different areas, rocks, whatever, stray

23:15

bullets, but either way

23:18

to find one in that area that's

23:20

something you gotta take seriously. The

23:22

only issue you can have with it is the fact

23:25

that it was found by the parents.

23:28

And for chain of custody issues and the integrity

23:30

of the evidence itself, I

23:32

hate to say this, but if you're being objective as

23:35

an investigator you could argue that because

23:37

the family wants to

23:39

really believe and wants

23:41

others to believe that their son

23:44

didn't kill himself, you

23:46

have to ask yourself the difficult question

23:48

of did they potentially

23:52

plant this evidence there? And I

23:54

know it wasn't said that way, but

23:56

I have to believe that this was a thought

23:59

if Sheriff Lumpkin. is on the up and up that

24:01

something that was running through his head. Now

24:04

if Sheriff Lumpkin's not on the up and up

24:07

you could make an argument that how would he

24:09

know for certain that Norman

24:12

was standing up when he shot himself. He

24:14

could have laid down on his side

24:16

and shot himself to be closer to the ground. I don't know

24:18

why he would do that but why would he shoot himself in

24:20

the first place right?

24:22

I think if we're to believe Lumpkin it's

24:24

the belief that because he had that injury to

24:28

the tip of his you know top of his head

24:31

that he had to have been standing for

24:33

not only that injury but also for

24:36

the injury to the shotgun to occur. That's

24:38

he was adding those things in to say listen something

24:40

had to happen in order for these things to happen

24:43

the way they did the injury the broken gun

24:45

he couldn't have been laying on the ground because they

24:47

the gun if it was already on the ground it obviously wouldn't

24:49

have broken but my response

24:52

would be what if you're wrong what if this isn't

24:54

a suicide at all what if this isn't an accident at

24:56

all. So the fact that he didn't

24:58

take the bullet seriously is a

25:00

little concerning and that he would just kind of dismiss

25:03

it as something that wasn't relevant I

25:05

don't think that was necessarily the best move

25:07

but again as we continue through

25:10

this case this could just be because

25:12

he had all the evidence

25:14

he needed and it was exactly the way it looked I

25:16

mean listen it wasn't only Sheriff Lumpkin it was the coroner

25:19

it was the medical examiner other deputies they

25:21

all believed the same thing so I'm not isolating

25:24

Sheriff Lumpkin here but it is something

25:26

where if he's not

25:28

on the up-and-up would he have an incentive to

25:30

dismiss anything that could potentially point

25:33

to what really happened to Norman

25:36

we're gonna get into that more now the Ladners

25:39

refused to believe that the bullet they found was not

25:41

related to their son's death they

25:43

theorized that Norman had been lying on the ground

25:45

when he was shot by someone else which

25:47

would explain how the bullet ended up in the dirt

25:50

the Ladners sent the bullet to a state ballistics

25:52

expert but unfortunately the experts

25:54

said they couldn't figure out if the bullet came from

25:56

Norman's gun or not the Ladners later

25:59

claimed that the returned a bullet to them,

26:01

however, it was not the one they initially

26:03

found in the dirt. They never got the

26:05

correct bullet back. This

26:07

is terrible. I don't know what happened here.

26:10

Chain of custody issues do happen, so I'm

26:13

not going to say it's not possible, but

26:15

again, when something like this happens,

26:17

I will tell you on the outside looking in, you're

26:20

going to have investigators and obviously

26:22

in the court of public opinion, people saying, see,

26:25

this bullet thing is just a, it's a

26:27

red herring and maybe the Ladners

26:29

are making this whole thing up. And I'm just telling

26:31

you, I'm not saying that's what I think, but I can tell you.

26:34

And maybe even some of you out there going, yeah, okay.

26:36

Now the bullet that supposedly was responsible

26:38

for your son's death is not the one you got back.

26:41

So again, this could be a situation

26:43

where there's something more going on here or

26:46

just another case of really bad luck. A

26:48

few weeks later, the Ladners went to the coroner's

26:51

office to question Norman's suicide ruling. Charlotte

26:54

told them solved mysteries that while there, a stranger

26:57

interrupted them and pulled her aside. He

26:59

told her, quote, Mrs. Ladner, don't

27:01

open this case up. You have other

27:04

children. I suggest you raise them for

27:06

your own good. You'll never find the

27:08

person that killed your son. And

27:10

then the stranger left the

27:12

Ladners didn't care about the strangers warnings.

27:15

Norman senior decided to return to the spot where

27:17

Norman was found dead while

27:19

searching over 300 yards away. He

27:21

discovered a quote, strange radio like

27:24

device that looked homemade. Norman

27:27

senior took the device to the police who suggested

27:29

it was part of a weather balloon and that it was

27:31

not an important clue. Norman

27:33

senior then showed the device to a neighbor who

27:36

advised him to show a former DEA agent.

27:38

The agent explained to Norman senior that devices

27:41

like the one he found were used by drug dealers

27:43

to signal aircraft by admitting a low range

27:45

signal for proper alignment to drop

27:47

a shipment of drugs. This led

27:49

the Ladners to theorize that Norman had stumbled

27:52

onto some drug activity in the woods and

27:54

was killed for that reason. Now,

27:56

I don't know this area too well,

27:59

but the

27:59

there would be a lot here for this to have

28:02

legs to me. This was an area

28:05

that was frequented by the Ladners and

28:08

other individuals in that area, including the sheriffs.

28:10

So

28:11

if there was this

28:12

prevalent drug activity going on

28:14

in those woods, I mean, we're talking a lot

28:16

of land out there, you have 120 acres. I

28:19

would like to think that if this was something

28:22

that was happening, some type of activity that

28:24

was happening in that area, people

28:27

from that community would know about it. And

28:29

maybe that's the case. Maybe this was something

28:31

that was prevalent out there and drug

28:33

activity in that rural area

28:36

was something that was common. If that's

28:38

the case,

28:39

then there could be some truth to this.

28:41

But

28:43

if there's no known documentation

28:45

leading up or after this

28:47

event, that would suggest that drug

28:50

smugglers were using this area

28:52

to carry out the transactions

28:56

of drug activity or the shipments or drop

28:58

shipments of drugs, large quantities of drugs,

29:01

then to think that this was just one isolated

29:04

incident that Norman walked into, like

29:06

I always say, not impossible,

29:09

but highly unlikely. But there

29:11

is another angle to this. But

29:14

before we get into that, I wanna talk about what

29:16

else the Ladners did in this investigation. Now

29:19

in August, the Ladners had Norman's body

29:21

exhumed by a medical examiner from Kansas.

29:24

The Ladners also hired a private investigator

29:26

and a lawyer to assist them in looking into Norman's

29:29

death. In total, the couple ended

29:31

up spending thousands of dollars in their quest for

29:33

answers. Everything they found told

29:35

them that their son did not shoot himself.

29:38

On September 13th, 1990, the Ladners held a

29:41

press conference to share their findings and express

29:44

their belief that Norman had been murdered. This

29:46

event prompted responses from Sheriff Lawrence

29:48

Lumpkin and Coroner John Stafford through

29:50

prepared statements. Sheriff

29:52

Lumpkin stated that the case wasn't a mystery

29:55

and suggested the Ladners couldn't accept the ruling

29:57

of suicide. He mentioned that his

29:59

office... had sent all of their reports to the state

30:01

medical examiner's office and state investigators

30:04

who reached the same conclusion. Norman

30:07

took his own life. Lumpkin said that

30:09

while he sympathized with the family, there

30:11

were reputations at stake and that the family's

30:14

actions were calling in to question the integrity

30:16

of the people who had worked on the case. County

30:19

Coroner John Stafford stated that the investigation

30:21

had followed Mississippi laws and standard forensic

30:24

practices. He stressed that it

30:26

had always been conducted in a professional manner.

30:29

Stafford also mentioned that Mississippi statutes

30:32

allowed anyone who disagreed with the court as ruling

30:34

to challenge it. He said the Ladners

30:36

could appeal to the state medical examiner and

30:39

if they still disagreed with the determination,

30:41

they could further appeal the ruling to the circuit court.

30:44

Stafford noted that county officials had asked the

30:47

Ladners multiple times to submit a challenge,

30:49

but they hadn't done so. In response,

30:52

the Ladners said they didn't want to take the case to court,

30:55

they just wanted answers to their questions concerning

30:57

all the inconsistencies in the official reports.

31:00

On the same day of the press conference, Unsolved

31:03

Mysteries wrapped up filming out an episode about

31:05

Norman's suspicious death. Charlotte

31:08

told the Times-Picayune, quote, We hope

31:10

the show will result in some response from someone

31:12

who knows what really happened. We

31:14

are convinced it was not a suicide and

31:17

we just want to find out what really happened.

31:20

Before the end of the year, the Unsolved Mysteries

31:23

episode was released. The episode

31:25

ended with quotes from Charlotte and Norman Sr.

31:28

Charlotte said, quote, We will not stop

31:30

this investigation no matter what until

31:33

it's finished. We owe it to our son.

31:36

Norman Sr. added, quote, It's a great deal

31:38

of strain knowing that he was murdered and nothing

31:41

has been done to bring his murderers to justice.

31:44

Unfortunately, nothing in Norman's case

31:46

changed after the Unsolved Mysteries episode aired.

31:49

A year later, in the fall of 1999, Lumpkin

31:53

was not reelected as sheriff. Then,

31:55

in November of 1992, he and 36 others were arrested at a dogfight

32:00

in Ford's Creek, Mississippi. It's unclear

32:03

if the charges against Lumpkin stuck, as

32:05

there was no follow-up reporting in the newspaper.

32:07

A few years later, in July of 1995, Lumpkin

32:10

faced even more trouble when he was arrested after

32:13

a quote, domestic dispute at a water park.

32:15

During the incident, he purposely crashed

32:18

his car into a park employee's car, he

32:20

then rammed her car into a fence. Lumpkin

32:23

was arrested and charged with simple assault, Melissa's

32:26

mischief, disorderly conduct, and

32:28

carrying a concealed weapon. However,

32:30

the charges were dropped later because the victim didn't

32:33

go to court.

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32:54

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32:57

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33:28

in all locations. Now

33:30

that's the last thing we could find about Lumpkin.

33:32

He unfortunately died in 2007. Now

33:35

regarding Lumpkin, over the years there

33:37

have been many rumors about how Lumpkin

33:39

might have played a role in Norman's death. These

33:42

theories are rooted in accusations that Lumpkin was

33:44

engaged in the case of a drug that was in

33:48

the case of a drug called Diximafia.

33:51

The New York Times described the Diximafia

33:53

as a group involved in various criminal activities

33:56

such as car theft, burglary, contract

33:58

killings, drug smuggling, and

34:01

drug distribution. The Mafia, which

34:03

was founded in Biloxi, Mississippi, was very

34:05

active in the South in the 1980s. Some

34:08

suggest that Norman accidentally witnessed Lumpkin

34:10

assisting in the pickup of drugs in the woods, possibly

34:13

dropped off by a plane linked to the Dixie

34:15

Mafia. Norman might have been killed

34:17

to eliminate any witnesses, with Lumpkin

34:20

potentially covering up the murder. Another

34:22

possible theory I want to talk about is similar

34:25

to the one that I just mentioned, but

34:28

could also explain how if this

34:30

is a situation where Lumpkin

34:33

isn't on the up and up, like I said earlier, this

34:36

would be his motive, this would be

34:38

the reason behind why he's so dismissive

34:41

about potential evidence, right? If it's not

34:43

because of the evidence itself, and it's just not

34:46

clear as day what happened to Norman, this

34:48

could be a reason why Sheriff

34:51

Lumpkin wanted this case to go away.

34:53

So this theory is that Lumpkin may not have been

34:56

responsible for Norman's death, but could have

34:58

helped cover it up due to his alleged ties

35:00

to the drug trade. Some further theorize

35:02

that Lumpkin may have had some influence over the district

35:05

attorney and judges, which would have made cover-ups

35:07

easier.

35:08

Now regardless of what theory you believe, almost

35:11

everyone seems to agree that Norman Ladner

35:13

did not take his own life. Most

35:15

find it implausible that a 17-year-old could

35:17

shoot himself in the temple with a shotgun. It's

35:20

unclear which, if any of these theories are

35:22

true. What is known, however, is

35:24

that Norman's father Norman Sr. passed

35:27

away without knowing the truth about his son's fate.

35:30

Now Charlotte, on the other hand, Norman's mother,

35:33

is still alive at the age of 80, and she

35:35

continues to wonder about what happened to

35:37

her son. Alright,

35:42

so let's dive into the perspective here. I

35:44

talked about a lot. We have four

35:47

potential scenarios on the surface that were

35:49

discussed, not including my own,

35:51

but the first one is accident.

35:55

Norman's out there with a shotgun. He trips

35:57

and falls on the ground.

36:00

or falls out of a tree and in the process,

36:02

there's an accidental discharge and unfortunately

36:05

he's shot in the head. Very

36:07

possible. It's happened before,

36:10

it can happen again. There's videos

36:12

literally out there of DEA agents

36:15

at safety courses where they're

36:17

showing you how you should hold a gun and the gun goes

36:20

off. So it can happen to anyone. That's number

36:22

one. The second is suicide,

36:24

right? Norman's feeling some type of way,

36:27

his parents don't pick up on it. He

36:29

goes out to the woods to kill himself

36:32

in a place where he was comfortable and a place where

36:34

he wanted to take his life away from his parents

36:37

and maybe hope that they wouldn't find him and

36:39

they wouldn't have to see that. The

36:41

next two theories, you can

36:44

kind of combine them. We talked about them five

36:46

minutes ago and that's that Lumpkin

36:49

had something more going on, right? He

36:51

was involved in some criminal activity and

36:54

there was an incentive for him, either directly

36:57

or indirectly, to make Norman's

36:59

murder go away, right? He didn't want it coming

37:02

back to people he was affiliated with.

37:04

So he played either a large or

37:06

small role in dismissing

37:09

any notion or any evidence that

37:12

could suggest Norman's death

37:14

was anything other than a suicide or

37:16

an accident. Here's my

37:19

problem with that. And again, it's possible,

37:21

especially in a town like this, but there

37:24

would be a lot of players involved with this for

37:26

it to all go down, right? There would have to be some

37:28

major influence on behalf of Lumpkin

37:31

and potentially the Dixie Mafia for this all

37:33

to come to fruition because you would have

37:35

to have the sheriff's department, the

37:38

coroner, the forensic pathologist,

37:40

the ballistics expert that the Ladners

37:43

hired that would have

37:46

switched the bullet intentionally so that they couldn't

37:48

continue this, right? It would have to be

37:50

a large conspiracy,

37:53

a multi-jurisdictional, multi-organizational

37:57

operation here where they all collectively

37:59

worked together. So that the lagging

38:01

couldn't get the justice they deserved right

38:04

they would all have to be working it on under that

38:06

same mindset There would have to be a lot of money involved

38:08

to make this all come together So so

38:10

cleanly and when I said at the end of this that

38:13

most people Don't believe

38:15

that Norman killed himself. I'm more referring to

38:18

Norman's family and the community around

38:20

him but as far as the Investigators

38:23

and the professionals that were involved in this case

38:26

they all do believe that this was either an accident

38:28

or a suicide So where

38:30

do I fall on this? I'm

38:33

never gonna sensationalize a case just for clicks.

38:36

I'm just not gonna do it and I

38:38

have been in a situation Numerous

38:41

times throughout my career Where

38:43

I have had to give parents

38:45

or family members news That

38:48

they didn't want to hear and I

38:50

knew they didn't want to hear it going into it, but our

38:52

job is not to be Nice

38:55

it's to be honest if we can be

38:58

sympathetic to the situation and be respectful

39:00

That's always number one, but I'm

39:02

not here to tell you what you want to hear I'm here

39:04

to tell you what I what I think what I truly

39:07

think what I truly believe I'm doing you

39:09

a disservice if I lie to you So

39:11

I'm gonna continue that trend. I'm never gonna change. I'm

39:13

almost 40 years old now I'm too old to change if

39:16

I had to put my career on it based

39:18

on just the limited information I have without

39:21

being on the ground without knowing

39:23

every single thing about Lumpkin

39:25

and his crew and how how much

39:28

was going on there at the time, you know was

39:30

the drug trade

39:32

a Prevalent thing, you know,

39:34

was there anything else in lumpkins history that

39:36

would suggest? He may have

39:39

had something to do with this, you know was you

39:41

know Was there other things in internal

39:43

affairs reports or internally within the police the

39:45

sheriff's department that would suggest? He was involved

39:48

in this type of activity. Those are

39:50

all things that would play a role But based on what I know

39:52

even the charges that we talked about none

39:54

of them are related to the drug trade, right?

39:57

It's my belief that more

39:59

than

39:59

More than likely, this was an accident. This

40:02

was a tragic accident. Norman

40:04

was out in the woods playing where he

40:06

normally played, doing what he normally did

40:09

and more than likely, I don't

40:12

have any indication it would be a suicide because

40:14

there's nothing that we've discovered or that

40:17

Lumpkin has released to us that would suggest he was suicidal,

40:19

right?

40:20

So more than likely, this was an accident. He

40:22

was either in a tree or tripped over a root

40:25

and it could be a situation where as he's

40:27

falling to the ground, he does

40:29

get that cut on his head. The gun goes off

40:32

or it kind of gets jammed in his head a certain way which

40:34

that gun itself could have hit there

40:36

and then hit again on his temple and went off

40:39

and that might have snapped the wood stock of the shotgun

40:42

and the sheer force from

40:44

the shotgun going off after

40:46

entering the front of his head could have flipped him over

40:48

onto his back. That's

40:51

how strong those shotguns, the

40:53

blast can be. So it

40:55

could be a situation where or as

40:57

he was falling to the ground after being shot, he

41:00

kind of bounced a certain way as he was falling.

41:02

I think whatever happened for the gun to

41:04

go off like that, it would have been during a fall

41:06

or during a trip

41:08

which could have caused an injury to the forehead

41:10

and then caused him as he

41:12

fell to land and end up

41:14

resting on his back. What does this mean

41:16

for this case? Well,

41:18

it just means that that's my opinion and that's all

41:20

it is based on my experience, based on what

41:22

I know about the case. But if this

41:25

is really going to ever go anywhere, it would

41:27

rely on people in that community to

41:29

come forward with maybe not necessarily

41:32

information about Norman's death but

41:34

more information about the individuals

41:36

who worked Norman's case. And

41:39

that's what I just alluded to a couple minutes ago. Is

41:41

there a connection? Is there a correlation here

41:44

where Norman could have stumbled upon

41:46

something that he shouldn't have seen

41:48

or heard?

41:50

Or is that area known

41:52

for hunting and has

41:54

there been any reports

41:57

or anything about maybe illegal

41:59

hunting going out? out there during different times

42:01

of the day where it could have been a situation

42:03

that Norman walked into a

42:06

crossfire of something going on

42:08

between two individuals or

42:10

a man or woman hunting an

42:12

animal.

42:13

All of that's possible.

42:15

But again we have to have reports of that and if something

42:17

like that happened I would think there would

42:19

be outside parties that would be familiar with

42:21

it. Maybe somebody confessed to it etc.

42:24

Those individuals would have to come forward. But

42:27

either way

42:28

I wanted to cover this case to make you guys

42:30

aware of it. That's what we do here. We cover

42:32

cases that you haven't heard of not

42:36

only because there's some mystery

42:38

to this case but also because there may be something

42:40

that one of you can potentially do about it. As

42:43

I said earlier Charlotte's still alive

42:45

and I don't think she's necessarily

42:47

sitting down to watch a YouTube video

42:50

or listen to a podcast

42:52

but a friend or family member of hers may.

42:55

And I hope if she has the opportunity to

42:57

listen to this episode she's able to hear what

42:59

I have to say now which is Charlotte I'm

43:02

so sorry for your loss. I can't

43:04

imagine losing a child every time I hear

43:06

about cases that involve the loss

43:08

of a child and I hear the struggles of the parents

43:11

and what they go through for the remaining part

43:13

of their lives. I'm thinking about you and I'm

43:15

thinking about your family

43:16

and I want you to know that

43:19

if something other than what has

43:21

been reported happened to your son in

43:23

this lifetime or the next the people responsible

43:25

for it will be held accountable

43:28

but I really do hope for your sake

43:30

and the sake and for Norman's sake

43:32

that this was just an accident an unfortunate

43:35

tragic accident that

43:37

just couldn't have been avoided and it was Norman's

43:39

time. I really do think

43:41

without knowing you

43:43

that more than likely what drove you to this level

43:46

was the fact that people believed your son

43:48

would take his own life because it sounds like initially

43:52

when when it was ruled an accident although

43:54

it was tragic although it was a tough pill to

43:56

swallow it was something that

43:58

maybe you could have You could

44:00

have eventually Accepted

44:03

but when they started saying that your son killed himself Knowing

44:06

him the way you and your husband Norman

44:08

senior knew him It just wasn't

44:10

an option and that's why you guys

44:12

went the route that you did

44:14

and I will never question How well you know

44:16

your son? So

44:17

I stand behind you and support you a hundred

44:20

percent

44:20

and for all of you just a quick recap on

44:23

August 21st 1989 17 year

44:26

old Norman Ladner was found dead in the woods behind

44:28

his family's picayune, Mississippi convenience

44:30

store He

44:31

had been shot in the temple.

44:33

And if you have any information on Norman's death,

44:35

please call the Mississippi Coast Crime Stoppers

44:37

at 1-877-787-5989

44:43

I know the holidays we just had Halloween past.

44:46

I hope everyone had a good trick-or-treat night We

44:48

have Thanksgiving coming and then we have Christmas

44:50

coming and as we enjoy these months

44:52

I want everyone to keep a you know an eye

44:54

on their surroundings make sure they're aware of everything sometimes

44:58

these times of year cause Individuals

45:01

to come out of the woodworks because they know that

45:03

people are carrying around expensive gifts and money,

45:05

you know All these things I don't want to be a Debbie

45:07

downer, but ultimately I want you guys to stay

45:09

safe out there So with that in mind

45:12

everyone have a good night. I'll see

45:14

you soon You

45:26

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